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Mid-Week Musings: Kluwe, Point Spreads, and Ridiculous Stats

Like many of you on Monday night, I spent much of the second half screaming at my television for the Vikings to NOT punt the damn ball to Reggie Bush.  The Saints were basically doing nothing offensively in the second half, and there was no logical reason for the Vikings to keep kicking the ball to the one guy that could have made a huge difference.

But whenever Chris Kluwe punted the ball away, it kept landing in the hands of Reggie Bush, and giving him plenty of room to work with to boot.  Reggie Bush had five punt return opportunites in the second half on Monday night.  His average was a cool 35.2 yards a crack. . .more impressive given the fact that one of those five punt returns was a two-yard loss.  So why the heck did the ball keep landing in Bush's hands?

Apparently it was because Chris Kluwe wasn't doing his job.

Star-divide

In his Tuesday press conference, Brad Childress threw Kluwe under the nearest speeding Greyhound by telling the media that he had told Kluwe to punt the ball out of bounds on those occasions.  Now, I know that Kluwe has had some issues with directional punting, but for him to be unable to place a single punt out of bounds in five opportunities to do so (or at least two opportunities, because after the first TD, there's no way Bush should have gotten the ball again) seems a bit strange to me.

Whether it was Kluwe's fault or not, though, I still really don't like the way he handled the situation.  Public ridicule of one of your players, even if it IS "only the punter," isn't the way to get things accomplished.  Praise your players publicly, but admonish them in private.  Keep any potential dirty laundry in-house.

I'm still not a huge Childress fan at this point, and stuff like this is a big part of the reason why.  Whether he told Kluwe to punt out of bounds or not is something that only the team should know.  Now we all know it, and it's just another thing that could potentially open up a rift.

Nfl_vikings_icon_medium  Nfl_vikings_icon_medium Nfl_vikings_icon_medium

Looking ahead to next week's contest. . .and I hope you're sitting down when you read this. . .depending on what sportsbook you're looking at (for informational purposes only, of course), the Beloved Purple have been installed as a 13.5 to 14 point favorite over the Detroit Lions on Sunday.  Yes, this Viking team is expected to beat an opponent by two touchdowns.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that the Lions have been nothing short of completely dreadful this season.  In the first halves of their games this year, they've been outscored 80-20. . .and 14 of those points came in the season opener in Atlanta after they had gone down 21-0.  They're in the bottom 4 in the NFL in every major defensive category (31st in points allowed, 32nd in yards allowed, 29th against the pass, 30th against the run).  They haven't won at the Metrodome since 1997, and have only beaten the Vikings once in the last 12 meetings. . .last year's 20-17 disaster at Ford Field.  The Vikings later went on to avenge that loss in a big way, thumping the Lions 42-10 in Minneapolis.

All of those numbers. . .and, yet, I feel a bit uneasy with this team being a two-touchdown favorite over anybody.  It's a division game, and there are few teams with a history of playing down to the level of their opponent that rivals Minnesota's.  I think we can win the football game, and I'd LOVE to see a blowout, but I'm skeptical of it actually happening.

Nfl_vikings_icon_medium  Nfl_vikings_icon_medium Nfl_vikings_icon_medium

And, finally, from the "Who Comes Up With This Stuff" department, the good folks from the Elias Sports Bureau, per Access Vikings, tell us that Monday night's game was the first game in NFL history that featured two punt returns for touchdowns (both courtesy of Reggie Bush), a blocked field goal returned for a touchdown (Fred Evans/Antoine Winfield), a touchdown pass by a non-quarterback (Chester Taylor to Visanthe Shiancoe), and two field goals of more than 50 yards (one each for Martin Gramatica and Ryan Longwell).

Someone needs to pay me to come up with this sort of stuff.  Well, I guess, in a way, they already do. . .but even I probably wouldn't have been able to come up with that.

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Standouts and Stand-downs

You’re dead-on about Childress’ comment regarding Kluwe, and Childress was awfully fast to pull that trigger. Every time Bush took off for the end-zone, the camera would flash for just a moment to a close-up of Childress, and it was clear from the deer-in-the-headlights expression that Childress was watching his career flash before his eyes, and everyone knew it. Kluwe himself admitted that it was his screw-up. That being said… it was like watching a re-run, with the same tactic being used to befuddle the Vikes’ special teams; catch the ball, head to the left, just short of contact, cut right across the whole field, dash up the right side-line to the endzone for a touchdown. It was done three times in the second half, with the middle attempt failing only because Bush stumbled. It was done last week too, with similar results. What do you suppose are the odds that the Lions will see the Vikes’ inability to guard both sides of the field and try to exploit it as well? Frustrating. Both Kluwe and Longwell need to stop kicking the ball to known serious return-threats, especially when they know their special teams are hurting. How about booting it out of the end-zone and giving the other team a measily touch-back at the 20? It’s not like the Vikes are going to stop the returner prior to that.

What did you think of Ben Leber’s play? No one’s been talking about him, but he was reading the Saints and reacting to be in the right place at the right time, repeatedly. It seemed he was the one breaking up deep passes to the Saints’ WRs on a regular basis, which amazed me. Not just his ability to read the Saint’s plays, but his speed in being able to hang in there as additional inside coverage.

Winfield continues to prove himself as a serious playmaker, and despite people thinking that Sharper is getting old, I suspect that the ball has been heaved in Winfield’s direction more often because of a fear that Sharper is standing by in the other direction. I still think we need another fast corner, but Winfield deserves a bonus for his play.

On a final note… Gonzo, I’ve watched the Vikes self-destruct on too many ‘sure-win’ games to take the Lions lightly. In fact, it’s when the Vikes are heavy favorites that I worry the most. It seems like, when they’re deep underdogs, the Vikes are freed to get wild and can pull out some incredible victories, but when they’re heavy favs, they play it safe. That’s team history, and with Childress’ managerial style of play calling… this is going to be a scary game.

by DCPurple on Oct 8, 2008 10:52 AM CDT   0 recs

Leber

Leber looked phenomenal in pass coverage Monday night. Leber doesn’t have the best physical skills, but he has an inate ability to read the opponent’s play. He is underrated, as is our entire LB corps, and will hopefully make a HUGE impact for the remainder of the season in the absence of EEEEEE JAY.

On a side LB note… Rufus Alexander has been back on our practice squad for a week or two now. I like that!

V-I-K-I-N-G-S! Skol Vikings, Let's Go!!

by TheViking83 on Oct 8, 2008 10:57 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It was a lose lose situation for chilly...

It put him in a bad spot… If he wouldn’t have said i told our punter to punt it outta bounds than we would have been like “WTF childress?! Why did u keep punting it to reggie?!!?” lol so kinda sucks for him but leber is a stud and this lions game is kinda scary… but im feeling a big win.

*Mac45*

by Macdaddy4508 on Oct 8, 2008 2:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Under the bus

Let me first say that I am a Vikings fan – always have been, always will be.

We can all state without hesitation that being a Vikings fan is one of the most frustrating commitments a sports fan can make. I say this because the Vikings have this innate ability to lose games they should easily win.

I’m not sure why this is exactly, but I can think of a handful of games that should’ve easliy been W’s for the Vikes, but instead ended up being big fat L’s. It could be overconfidence, it could be smack talk, hype, injuries, bad plays, bad calls…whatever.

I can’t say with any certainty that the Vikings should be 14 point favorites over the Lions. The Lions could “win their Super Bowl” of this season if they take the Vikes out this Sunday, and lord knows we can’t afford for that to happen.

But it has happened before, and it’s bound to happen again, someday.

I’m cautiously optimistic.

Also, if Leber’s AWR rating on Madden would be judged off the previous game, it would be a 99. But his speed would be a 78 or so – he’s not the fastest guy, but he obviously knows what sort of offense he’s looking at.

Lastly, I think Cedric Griffin is lacking some serious credit. He’s #2 on solo tackles for the season, and it’s only a matter of time until he gets an INT (hopefully, this week). Plus, c’mon!! – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqAaR0JH19I

by AustinVike on Oct 8, 2008 11:18 AM CDT   0 recs

...

I just love the crowd’s reaction on that Billy Miller hit.

I’m glad he’s okay and all, but man…that was a brutal shot.

by AustinVike on Oct 8, 2008 11:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Poor Erin Henderson

got lit up just as bad!

VikeGuru is a doofus!!

by Unclebillybonz on Oct 8, 2008 12:27 PM CDT   0 recs

yeah he did

He immediately popped right back up and continued to pursue the play… took a little luster out of the huge block, but not much. That was mammoth. Show’s EH’s toughness though.

V-I-K-I-N-G-S! Skol Vikings, Let's Go!!

by TheViking83 on Oct 8, 2008 1:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ESPN (Sportscenter) later informed me

That the baseball game that night was the first playoff game where someone with a last name starting with a U (B.J. Upton) had a multi-home run game.

by PizzaDelivery on Oct 8, 2008 1:16 PM CDT   0 recs

Griffin hit

If you saw what I saw when I saw it, then you too know that 83 ducked his head into Griffin, and not Griffin into 83.

by IMCLGONZO on Oct 8, 2008 1:49 PM CDT   0 recs

Do You Feel Lucky, Punk?

There are exceptions to every rule. Everybody makes mistakes, but if a player is told twice in the same game to do something that is not that difficult (after all, out of bounds in football is way easier to hit than the broad side of a barn), I have no problem with tossing that guy under the next vehicle that is headed out of Hibbing. You can’t bench your punter, and firing someone without making it crystal clear that performance is completely unsatisfactory is not a kindness. Childress has calmed down, but I suspect Lombardi might have told the driver to back up and make sure he was dead.

by Elgar on Oct 8, 2008 2:04 PM CDT   0 recs

Why do we not...

Run the ball about 1000 times when we are up by 2 scores? We have a great O-line, and if Peterson isn’t doing his job, give the damned ball to Taylor.

Baseball's only fun if you're playing it, watching it, or thinking about it.

by Eckstreem on Oct 8, 2008 3:57 PM CDT   0 recs

Throw him under the bus

I think Childress throwing the guy under the bus is crap! If he is throwing his punter under the bus (with a win), then Childress should be thrown under the bus for the 3 defeats this year.

I don’t agree with what Kluwe did but someone out there give me his stats compared to other punters. I think he is pretty solid. Can’t say the same for the coverage unit. If the Vikes let him go, then there are 15 other teams that will jump to sign this guy.

i guess they had 4 punters in to tryout today. Not sure who.

The Lions game scares me. I’ve been a Vikes fan too long to get confident.

by marksa on Oct 8, 2008 5:12 PM CDT   0 recs

Like I said in another thread, those stats don’t mean shit if the returner takes it to the house. Especially when he was told to kick it out of bounds. They were down by 10 points, and Kluwe handed them the keys to a victory. We were just lucky they dropped them.

It’s not throwing a guy under the bus. He’s calling out a player who is taking undue risks. The only thing I can equate to that is equally as stupid is a ball carrier just standing in the endzone and waiting for a safety. That’s pretty much what Kluwe was doing by punting to Bush so damn much. When we face Chiacgo, he had BETTER kick that ball out of bounds. There is no way we will be able to cover Hester.

by Frost on Oct 8, 2008 11:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Leber

looked polished and confidant…..he needs to be now that EJ is out for the year

by Hilton Head viking on Oct 8, 2008 5:34 PM CDT   0 recs

Most

Leber is one of the most underated players in the NFL, and certainly on the Vikes squad. He is probably the only good thing that Fran Foley has done in his whole life. Thank good we got rid of him when we did, and Thank God he brought us Leber when he came here.

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Oct 8, 2008 9:01 PM CDT   0 recs

Defense

Mainly Winnie got this win,not offense but Gus showed toughness and that in itself should gel that front line.Against Detroit the 1st quater needs just passing and more passing.Come second we open up with some AD and pas mix.3RD we open up the play book and 4th nothing but AD and now your dinks and dunks.
Come the bears all of the same.We need a coach like the Saints Patyon ,a guy who could coach this team with guts and glory.Instead of this wanna be Coach,out of 5 plays I tell you to punt out of bounds,I am putting Winnie into to punt on the 3rd try.
We need A for real coach last year,Team is there just not the Staff.

by speedlod on Oct 8, 2008 9:07 PM CDT   0 recs

ced griffin

griffin plays side line to side line and is one of the most physical corners in the league. i know he had a couple of rough games but he is a gamer and gives his body up without fail. i don’t think that hit should be penalized. what the hell is he supposed to do? winfield is playing awesome;period. i love the guy. best one on one tackling corner in the league,period. i just don’t know why some of you are piling on ced. where is the venom for the O line? they have been overrated forever. just be fair. and if you want to jump on everybody’s ass after a tough loss go “cheer” for another team. you are pathetic fans. probably never played a freaking down in your life.

by deadeye on Oct 8, 2008 10:40 PM CDT   0 recs

Please do not call other people pathetic fans

Just because you have different opinions. It is frankly very annoying. I already blew up on Macdaddy before, too much so I admit, but what you said is just blatant. They have different opinions. Get over it. That doesn’t make them worse fans or you a better fan.

In AP I trust

by FarvaForTheVikings on Oct 8, 2008 10:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

A running team

While I was happy to see us actually have a passing game, our team is set up that we should run the ball 30 times per game. Let Peterson punish some defenders and late in the game the run defense will soften. Taylor should have at least 10 of those carries too.

by keomr on Oct 9, 2008 5:39 AM CDT   0 recs

Kluwe + 10

If Kluwe doesn’t kick it out of bounds, there are 10 other guys who should’ve been able to make a play. I don’t care who the returner is, he shouldn’t be able to run back 2 TDs in a row + a 3rd if he doesn’t trip over his own feet. The loss of Heath Farwell couldn’t make our coverage unit THAT pathetic, could it?

Childress’ definitely through Kluwe under the bus. It speaks to Childress’ stubborn ego: If everyone would just do what I say, we’d be fine! If these dumb players could just stay within my KAO system, we’d be great! What an ass.

Leber def had a great game. Herron only had two tackles. I saw a few plays where he was out of position, but what do you guys think about the drop-off between him and EJ?

What worries me about the Detroit game are the streaks. Not winning at the Dome since ‘97… that can’t go on forever. Hopefully the streak continues for 1 more year.

by JasonAve6413 on Oct 9, 2008 7:50 AM CDT   0 recs

The Difference a Coach Makes

Anyone else here keeping half an eye on the Redskins this year?! Wow, what a difference a change in coach makes! Sure, Joe Gibbs was brought back from the grave to resurrect a marginal team, but the moment they crawled back to the playoffs (barely), he bailed and dived back under the tombstone. Then they brought in Jim Zorn (one of my favorite NFL QBs, btw) as head coach. Pretty much the same roster, but a fresh coach, and one who knew a QB needs some space to breath and leeway to call his own plays. A coach who knows that to win, you have to air it out, take some chances, do more than ‘manage’ the game. The difference? 4-1. Winning is the yardstick, baby.

How ‘bout them Vikings?! Seriously, the Vikings have at least as good a roster as the Redskins, probably better. The biggest reason that the Vikings aren’t doing better this year is only partially the QB issues, it’s having the wrong coach in place. The wrong play-calling. Childress decided on his style of offense from the beginning and didn’t pick players that fit it, he picked the best players from the draft that were available. Watching AP and CT in the backfield is often like watching a size 12 foot trying to wedge into a size 10 shoe. Sometimes they get some traction, but they’re so easily stopped by the opposition these days that something’s seriously wrong. I don’t think it’s enough to pick a style of play and force the players into it, you have to take into account what those players are best at, and build an offense that makes the most of their abilities. Childress continues to do it the wrong way. And he has this weird notion of ‘managing’ a football game. We see it week after week; first half, the Vikes try to throw up 14-21 points, second half they try to sit on it as if playing it safe will guarantee the win. They don’t open up again unless they’re forced to, and then it’s a matter of fighting to win a game that they had in the bag before they dropped it.

At this point, I don’t care how many wins the Vikes pull out this year, I’d be happy to see Childress go and teach his “kick-ass management” to some other team. Maybe Chicago? That’d be nice. Anywhere but Minnesota. Jim Zorn won’t be available now that he’s doing so well elsewhere, but I’m sure there are other good prospects.

by DCPurple on Oct 9, 2008 9:04 AM CDT   0 recs

If you're going to throw someone under the bus....

Chilly should have dove head first to lead the pack. No mention of the lousy kick coverage by the rest of the team. The entire special teams has been brutally bad all year. So the plan was to kick out of bounds. In case that doesn’t work, TACKLE the runner. And if you plan on bringing in players for try outs, how about bringing in some players who can actually break up a wedge or stay in their lane? How about bringing in coaches who can call better offensive schemes? How about some mid season head coaching try outs?

by swwags on Oct 9, 2008 10:21 AM CDT   0 recs

Amen Brother!

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Oct 9, 2008 10:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No Win

It is funny how the same folks who were slamming Childress for punting to Bush are now slamming him for calling out Kluwe for punting to Bush.

There are certainly some legitimate reasons to criticize Childress, but if you really just want to hate someone, there are plenty of more deserving people to put the emotional energy into. You know, murderers, child molesters, evil dictators, etc…

Mrs. Wilf didn’t raise any fools. Childress knows this is his last year if he doesn’t turn the team around. Either he will or he won’t. If he doesn’t we will have a new coach next year.

Meanwhile, it might be helpful for some of the greatest critics of Childress to get a little real world experience besides their fantasy football league. Maybe you could volunteer to coach a local peewee football team. Even better, since you are obviously an authority, you’d probably have no problem becoming an assistant coach at your local high school – right?

Then, once you have a couple of years working at that level, you’d probably be a position where career NFL coaches would value your advice…

Until that time, you may want to consider the possibility that Childress actually does possess a basic working knowledge of the game of football and anyone that assumes he does not, is probably saying more about their own grasp of the game than his.

Yes, the team is under-performing. Yes, he may not be the right coach for the job. Perhaps he should be replaced. BUT – until you can convince parents to let you coach their children, you probably don’t have what it takes to lead an NFL team to the Playoffs.

I’m just sayin…

by dkerfoot on Oct 9, 2008 12:18 PM CDT   0 recs

I have experience...

10 years coaching youth baseball, football, and soccer…..

I think Brad Childress sucks, and shouldn’t be a head coach….

until he is man enough to face the camera, and tell the media and fans that HE made a mistake, I’ll always say the same thing….

he almost said it this week, when he said the it’s his job to make sure that people are executing correctly and doing the right things… almost

how about coming out and stating that he’s responsible for the awful Special Teams play, and he’s going to make it right….at least he’s taking some of the burden of responsibility….

he’s not ONCE admitted to being wrong…..always blaming someone else

that’s why he sucks, and needs to go

by Hilton Head viking on Oct 9, 2008 12:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Can you name me a coach that has stood in front of the cameras and admitted to being wrong? Honestly, it’s not all Childress. I understand he’s Head Coach, but there’s this thing called a Special Teams Coordinator too. That’s the guy you want to be shifting your crosshairs onto. Childress wanted to punt away from Bush. He had the right idea. Its the special teams that’s cost us at least one game, and nearly two.

by Frost on Oct 9, 2008 1:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Andy Reid

for one….he’ll stand up and point the finger at himself, when he is to blame…..it’s a wonder that Childress didn’t learn something in his days at Philly….obviously, he didn’t learn how to call plays and run an offense….no wonder Reid wouldn’t let his own OC call the plays….he knew what we all know now

 

by Hilton Head viking on Oct 9, 2008 3:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Then throw the special teams coach under the bus. Hammer your players in private not in public. I bet these guys really want to play to save Chillys job!!!!!!!!!!

by marksa on Oct 9, 2008 4:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ummm...

I was actually being sarcastic when I suggested that coaching kids would qualify you to give advice to an NFL coach.

by dkerfoot on Oct 9, 2008 8:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and if he

had said nothing, you would blame him for not getting kluwe to punt it out. I think it was fine he told us about it, but he got a little too defensive in the way he did it. Threatening to find someone who can kick it out is not how he should’ve handled the situation. I agree with the lose lose sentiment for chilly.

by skiumah06 on Oct 9, 2008 2:50 PM CDT   0 recs

if Childress were in the private sector....

in a small company, how do you think his behavior, attitude, and ego would affect those working with and around him….

I had a supervisor, in a factory job, who showed the same personality traits as Childress when it came to leading people….nothing was ever his fault; nobody ever did things his way; he continually chastised people for screwing up;……not once did he take the blame for anything wrong that happened….but he ended up getting fired, the same thing that happens to any person put into a position of leadership that cannot lead…

he is not a leader of men, nor is he a football coach….

by Hilton Head viking on Oct 9, 2008 3:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually he seems like a very nice guy. A little on the dull side perhaps. I have never seen him do or say anything that I’d consider particularly offensive.

Again, instead of investing so much energy into hating a football coach, find something or someone that is truly worth hating.

by dkerfoot on Oct 9, 2008 8:34 PM CDT   0 recs

really all in fun....

but when everybody in the building knows you’re naked, and you still think you’re not, then there is a problem…

I’m sure Brad is a really nice guy…other than a couple of Zig Zigler classes in how to manage people, he’d probably make a wonderful manager at a fast food restaurant….

by Hilton Head viking on Oct 10, 2008 11:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Callin' 'em as I see 'em

It’s not a matter of hating Childress. It’s making an observation based on the evidence that so many people can see. You don’t have to be an NFL coach with a better record than Childress to know that Childress is doing a lousy job, based on 1) his win/loss record, 2) caliber of Viking team, 3) observed play calling, and 4) his own comments. His record speaks for itself, I think the Vikes are still a much better team than the record suggests, Childress’ play calling is ultra-conservative even when the only chance the Vikings have to win is to take some chances, and his descriptions of a QB needing to be able to ‘manage’ the game tell me that he’s what Lombardi would have called a, ‘good loser’.

Regardless of how the rest of the season goes, I think the Vikings would be better off with a coach that feels more strongly about winning, is less conservative in his approach to the game, and is willing to adapt his game plan to take full advantage of the strengths of the players he has available rather than trying to shoe-horn them into a pre-determined system.

Of course, I’m just a fan, and I’ve never coached a football team in my life…. Just sayin’

by DCPurple on Oct 11, 2008 10:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ridiculous

dk, I think your notion of not being able to have an opinion on Childress’ coaching unless you’ve been a coach is utterly ridiculous. Every criticize a politician w/o having been an elected official? Ever criticize how long you sit at a traffic light without having been a traffic engineer? Ever criticize the war in Iraq? The bailout? Home speculators? A restaurant?

Maybe I’m wrong and you’re the perfect Zen guy….?

by JasonAve6413 on Oct 10, 2008 7:35 AM CDT   0 recs

The weather

I don’t in fact think you have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

I do however think it is absurd to suggest that most of the commentators on Daily Norseman would do a better job of coaching than Childress does. Most of us are in fact, posturing blowhards who should thank God we aren’t held responsible for our opinions from week to week.

Most of the fury that is directed against Childress is over things that are utterly debatable and have more to do with his style than his play calling or player development. The truth is, if Bud Grant took over the team you would be flaming him too. “The man has no emotion! No imagination! And that wimpy-ass quarterback he drafted runs around like a damn chicken. As much as we hate them and would never admit it, we’d secretly love to have Lombardi for a coach and Bart Starr for our Quarterback!”

People don’t like conservative coaching, but guess what? We have a team that requires it! Our receivers have been inconsistent at best. Our quarterbacks are not gun-slingers and we have an offensive line and running back tandem that make us ideally suited to smash-mouth football. You all want us to pretend we have a young Culpepper at QB with Moss and Carter both requiring double-teams. I hate to break it to ya’ll, but we don’t get to play with the players we wish we had. We play with the players we do have.

I do think that Childress put too much faith in Jackson. The pygmalion effect didn’t pay off and I’d guess thereis a 50% chance it will cost him his job at the end of the year.

But Childress made some outstanding moves in the off-season. Unfortunately, some of the best new talents have been hampered by injuries. Berrian is finally starting to look more like his old self and Shianco is starting to hold on to the ball, so I do expect to see a bit more air under the ball. But the year isn’t 2000 and your ulcers will be much easier to live with if you start to frame your expectations around the actual players we have on the team.

by dkerfoot on Oct 14, 2008 10:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Note: Before I am corrected, I do realize it was Van Brocklin, not Grant that actually drafted Tarkenton.

by dkerfoot on Oct 14, 2008 10:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

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