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BREAKING VIKINGS NEWS: Judge Blocks Williams' Suspensions

This just coming across from the Associated Press:

A Minnesota judge has blocked the NFL's suspension of Vikings stars Kevin and Pat Williams for violating the league's anti-doping policy.

Hennepin County District Judge Gary Larson issued a temporary restraining order at the players' request on Wednesday, saying he wanted more time to hear arguments in the case. No further hearing date immediately was set.

The Williamses were among six players suspended for four games for testing positive for a diuretic that can be used as a masking agent for steroids. They have argued that the substance containing the diuretic didn't list all its ingredients.

The Vikings are 7-5 and in first place in the NFC North, with the Williamses a big part of their success.

Well, then, we'll have to see where this goes from here.  I'll add to this as I figured out more about it.  I just wanted to get it up there for now.  Anything new will be after the proverbial fold.

Star-divide

Okay, so here's my understanding on this.  And I'm borrowing some of this from Mike Florio at Pro Football Talk, so bear with me here.  While he's usually best taken with a grain of salt. . .a) he's a lawyer, so what he has to say about this particular issue takes on a bit of extra standing, and b) he seems to agree with most of us on this issue, which is always nice.

Anyway, a temporary restraining order is one that seeks to sort of "freeze the status quo" rather than allow a legal ruling to be upheld.  In this case, the "status quo" is Pat and Kevin Williams being allowed to play for the Minnesota Vikings, since they were allowed to do so at the time of the ruling in the StarCaps case.  Unless the NFL can get Judge Larson's temporary restraining order overturned by a federal court, the "status quo" will remain so until Judge Larson can hear the case.

As Elgar has already mentioned in the comments, it should be interesting to hear Roger Goodell try to explain to a judge. . .you know, a REAL authority. . .some of the league's more interesting disparities. . .like why it is that a player that gets caught cutting up cocaine with a credit card by police officers (like Jacksonville's Matt Jones) is subject to a three-game suspension by the league, yet players that took a diet pill that you could get at any GNC in America are subject to a four-game suspension.

I hope that this ends very, very badly for the National Football League. . .and very, very well for the Minnesota Vikings.

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THANK FUCKING GOD!!!!!!!

Should be Moved to Federal Court tomorrow morning….Knowing That Dumb Fuck Goodell its going to happen.

by Tony_O on Dec 3, 2008 6:50 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tell it to the judge, Roger! .

Judge Larson’s calendar is full until next week, and citizen Goodell has no line-jumper pass that works in his court. It took Goodell’s kangaroo court team thirteen weeks to figure out their opinion. Now it’s time for a professional to listen to all the evidence. Yes, now the NFL may have to explain on national TV why people who take over-the-counter diet pills can’t be allowed in the playoffs and why they’re worse than cocaine.

by Elgar on Dec 3, 2008 7:04 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hearing

Could be as early as tomorrow not out of the woods yet But believe they can practice with the Team.

by speedlod on Dec 3, 2008 7:16 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What Pisses Me Off...

is the way that some sportswriters around the country are saying that Pat and Kevin have no excuses and one of those idiots had the nerve to say that both of them were in fact masking steroid use (get real, I mean look at them!). The only sportswriter on Around The Horn that took the Williams’s side was Woody (Mariotti of course was all over them being the Chicago Kiss-Ass that he is). The only show that gave them the benefit of the doubt was PTI. Wilbon hit the nail on the head when he stated that the NFL screwed up over a vague policy and is refusing to admit when they’re wrong. I knew I liked that show for some reason….

by purplegrey on Dec 3, 2008 7:16 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wilbon's great

I actually prefer him and the guy from Miami to Kornheiser.

by Robert Rence on Dec 3, 2008 9:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fuckin unbelievable! And get this a MINNESOTA judge blocks this ruling. This came through the holds nothing of right and wrong. Dammit they chose to put this unknown substance but player KNOWN into there own body. You cannot tell me they didn’t know what they were doing or knew they could blame innocence by saying “Weight Lose”. Don’t let this becoming a MLB event of congress inventigation of last year.

by shazam23 on Dec 3, 2008 7:52 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Blah Blah Blah

To the contrary. . .I hope they drag Roger Goodell and the National Football League through every possible legal proceeding that they can get them to.

And if you hate the fact that people from Minnesota had the nerve to file an appeal with a Minnesota judge, you’re going to hate it if this case ends up in front of the Minnesota Supreme Court. . .and Supreme Court Justice (and NFL Hall of Famer, and Vikings’ Ring of Honor member) Alan Page.

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 3, 2008 7:56 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Deciphered

Gonzo, you got a hell of a lot more out of that rambling mess than I did. It must be through your experience wading through that cesspool of a comment section over at PFT. (I still have no idea how you manage to read and post things in there.)

by cheaptoy on Dec 3, 2008 8:15 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I deal with students on a daily basis

If you’ve read some of the things that I’ve seen over the couple of years I’ve been an instructor, reading the comment section at PFT is actually a welcome break. (-:

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 3, 2008 8:28 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Page

Would have to recuse himself on this case.

by speedlod on Dec 4, 2008 1:13 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

?????

Hey shazam23…..What the hell’s a frigging inventigation????

by purplegrey on Dec 3, 2008 8:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't interrupt him. . .

He’s SPEECHIFYIN’!

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 3, 2008 8:28 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shazam23, you talk about this “player KNOWN” substance. Where is the evidence for this? Are you aware of insider information that none of us are?? Or know players on a league-wide basis that corroborate this claim? Seriously. Besides – and if anyone has legal knowledge pleas inform me! – wouldn’t the Minnesota courts be the logical/legal first choice? Residence, employment, etc for the Williamses.

by cutlassbob on Dec 3, 2008 8:35 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Next Time...

…Maybe they can hop a flight to go before a judge in Green Bay or Chicago. They’ll get a FAIR hearing in either of those places…snicker, snicker

by purplegrey on Dec 3, 2008 8:42 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So They Called the Psychic Hotline?

And a man answered, and without Kevin or Pat having to ask a thing (cause this guy’s a psychic) he told them which incorrectly labelled over-the-counter diet pills has butemanide hidden in it, and the duo started taking it before camp because the psychic also told them the NFL wasn’t testing this year as usual, and they’d never get caught. Yep. The first thing I do is wait every day for the psychic hotline to call me and let me know what’s shaking, because if they’re psychic, I shouldn’t have to tell them it’s me, right? You gotta love those psychics.

by Elgar on Dec 3, 2008 8:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bumetanide

Is sold in Vials for injection and has a powdered form that is somewhat water souable.It is supposed to be only available by perscription only.How did it end up in Starcaps and how come no charges have been leveled at the Company that sold it.Isnt that dispensing a medication without a liscense.If the Nfl or anyone in the employ of the NFL knew that this substance was in Starcaps and didnt whistle blow.Doesnt that make them conspirators and equaly liable.
But I agree with ya Purplegrey and believe that the Wall is fighting this on grounds it was ingested without knowledge.Both Williams are fighting for their good name and should be given the benifit of the doubt.Its not like the Wall went to a club,stopping first to cut up some coke in their car with a credit card.Then went into the club grabbed drinks and thrown them in any womens faces.Procede to make it rain then accidently shoot themselves in leg,go home and beat their girlfriends.
They took a weight loss pill that was supposed to be all natural and wasnt.They deserve Justice in a court of law,not in a court of Goodell,or in feeble brains of Pack fans.This is way to deep for the avg Pack fan to fathom because it happens to be work related and falls under a contract.Which why it was heard in a court in Minnesota,where else did you think they would file lol.

by speedlod on Dec 3, 2008 8:02 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gotta agree here

When I look at the guys implicated in this, at least the ones I know anything about, they seem to be fellas who are generally on the “up and up” and seem like reasonably bright players. I mean, if there was a Merriman or an Urlacher in there, then I would be more inclined to think the players f’d up.

by cheaptoy on Dec 3, 2008 8:21 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nah. . .Urlacher's Too Busy for Roids

I heard he’s going to get a weekly column in Parents’ Magazine. I can totally understand why.

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 3, 2008 8:30 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank God. I’m obviously biased about this, but I think it’s a good idea for several reasons. First, it shows Goodel that he needs to stop holding people to double standards. Second, it could end up helping us get to the playoffs (w00t) and finally, it may just cause the NFL to finally FIX THE BROKEN substance abuse policies. Players are responsible for what’s in their bodies? How are they supposed to know if nobody tells them whats in it, and the ingredient isn’t on the label? They don’t work in the company.

I hope the Williamses beat this bullshit suspension, not just for the team or their sake, but for the whole league. They treat cases like these in the black and white, when there’s really a whole lot of grey.

by Frost on Dec 3, 2008 8:54 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stand Up

I believe after the next Federal hearing, the Williamses will be suspended, because the union agreed to a ridiculous agreement under which their members may be presumed guilty until proven innocent. Stupid, but that’s what it seems they did. Still, the Wall needs to stand up and let the American public decide how insane a system is that punishes diet pills worse than it does cocaine and get publicity out that the Williamses had no intent to game the system. Get some talk on national TV about why the Wall isn’t in the first round of the playoffs. The Detroit victory is a big tie-breaking piece. After that, the Vikings need to figure a way to beat Atlanta, which already has beaten both our competitors and would give us the common-opponents edge and the conference edge. The extra week with the Williams Wall in place can give the coaches time to prepare better for the span without them.

by Elgar on Dec 3, 2008 9:19 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Roger Badell is a tool....

roger badell is flexing his muscles to look tough to the rest of the league and to the jock sniffing politicians by trying to “make an example” out of these players who just happen to play for small market teams…..no way this happens in new york, dallas etc…..

this is a travishamockery!!!……..

"Somewhere in Minnesota, a child becomes a Vikings fan and wonders if they will win a Super Bowl in their lifetime"

by Skol!dTimer on Dec 3, 2008 9:28 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As a lawyer myself, I can tell you that the Judge’s ruling would have been the most likely decision in any court in the US.

1. A suspension results in a loss of pay and a damaged reputation. Both are what in legaleze is known as “irreparable harm”. Courts will always grant an injunction to an action when the requesting party could suffere irreparable harm and the non-moving party would only suffer a delay in recieving their due should the case eventually go their way.

2. There really are only two locations this action could be heard: Minnesota and the jurisdiction that houses the Headquarters of the NFL. Thats it. A court must have competant jurisdiction to both hear the case and grant the relief which requires personal and subject matter jurisdiction (jurisdiction over both the parties involved and the thing at issue – in this case, a Contractual obligation between two individuals and a corporation)

3. As for the appeal, I dont understand how the appeal could be heard in Minnesota Federal Court….the MN Fed Court would first need to hear the case for removal before it could hear the merits of the case.

4. As for the merits of the federal appeal, the players could argue that the CBA is unconscionable to the terms of the steroid policy since it doesnt allow for a neutral third party arbitration over a dispute that could cost the players money. Another argument for the players is that since the NFL had knowledge of the bumentide in StarCaps and they failed to inform players, they constructively waived starcaps as a banned product.

I’m sure theres many more arguments to be made on both sides but i dont really have the time to think of them all.

by Hoss-Drone on Dec 3, 2008 9:30 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, from your lawyer's perspective, Hoss. . .

What’s your impression? Do you think the Williams boys can beat this thing if they continue down the path they seem to be going down now?

The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!

by Gonzo on Dec 3, 2008 9:33 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They can beat this

But the going could get rough,The Judge who issued the Injunction will allow the NFL to present why they Suspended the Wall.He can then Dismiss the Injunction ruling in the Favor of the NFL if theres enough evidence that the Wall knowingly broke an NFL rule that is written.He could also rule that the NFL knowingly withheld evidence that they was aware that Starcaps was tainted and did not pass that information to the Players.It should boil down to wether the Wall can prove that they used Starcaps that was tainted unknowingly and that the Nfl did all they could to make the players aware that Starcaps had a banned substance.If the Judge rules in favor of the NFL,the Wall should be able to throw an appeal in throwing this into the Dockets Prolly about 45 days from now.

by speedlod on Dec 3, 2008 10:26 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I dont know all the in’s and out’s of the case but……from what I DO know, I would estimate their chance of success as greater than 50%.

I think here are some of the key factors:

1. The case is being heard in MN. The hometown advantage helps. Even if it gets removed to Federal court, their is still some advantage no matter how small.

2. The dispute is between two individuals and a big multi-billion dollar organization. Courts actually do like the underdog. The problem is that usually the underdog cant last in the fight cuz they cant afford it, thats not the case here.

3. The CBA provides that disputes over the Steroid Policy are handled and decided upon by…..one of the contracting parties? Can anyone say unfair position? Not having disputes over specific cases handled by a neutral third party arbitrator is, i personally think, a big factor in how this is gonna go down since the NFL had knowledge that starcaps contained a banned substances and it sat on this knowledge to the detriment of the players. Judges dont like to see contract disputes where one party has way more power over disagreements than another. Contracts like that get nuked.

4. Case Strategy – one of the goals that the Williams’ may have is to simply be annoying long enough that the damage is delayed until next season. One thing that many non-legally trained and educated people think is that in a court you can only be a winner or a loser. Thats not the case. There are levels of losing and winning. The Wall could end up having a judge decide for the NFL’s position, but if its not until March then it wont impact this season. If their counsel is worth a grain of salt he would have asked them right away: “What are your goals?” I’m sure one of the goals was “continuing to play this season”. Delaying a decision till march attains that goal. You dont need to achieve all your goals to “win” a litigation dispute.

5. As several people have pointed out – what about the incongruent handling of suspensions? This plus #3 can be used to show a pattern of unfair treatment by the NFL and a balance of power that weighs heavily in favor of the NFL in regards to the CBA. Yes, the CBA was collectively bargained for by the players in exchange for Millions of dollars…..but when that same agreement can cost players loads of money simply because the other side doesnt want to fork it over and repeatedly hands out vastly different penalties in same or similiar cases……something’s not right.

Bottom Line: The Wall’s best argument I think lies in Contract Law. The CBA’s steroid abuse policy is unconscienable because
1. The NFL hands down differing penalties for same or similiar cases
2. There is no neutral third party resolution for disputes with extenuating circumstances
3. The NFL has a much stronger bargaining position in relation to an individual player

Their next best argument:
4. The NFL had knowledge that starcaps contained a banned substance and it failed to inform players. The NFL contributed to the situation by failing to inform players. The NFL by failing to inform should be “estopped” from arguing that it was up to the players to be careful what goes into their bodies – especially when the NFL itself has an approved substances hotline.

by Hoss-Drone on Dec 3, 2008 11:15 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HMM

Hoss I believe thats what I said just in less words,with the NFLPA getting into the mix,this has a great chance at getting pushed into next season if the suspension are upheld down the road.Dont see this getting cleared up quickly and rightly so.The Williams have the right to defend their good names in a court of law.But the NFL also has a right to show good cause for the suspensions.Problem is the NFL should really think about letting this one go.If the Williams duo can prove that the NFL held back information that Starcaps contained a Substance since 2006 and they had knowledge of this , that should only be had with a RX.. More so because this item was sold OTC, puts the NFL in a spot to defend itself by withholding not only the information from players but the public also.IF 5 deaths from 2006 and now can be blamed,the NFL is just as guilty in those deaths as the makers of Starcaps.Who do you think has deeper pockets.

by speedlod on Dec 3, 2008 11:58 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great...

All this is going to do is allow them to play in the Detroit game and make them miss the 1st playoff game(assuming we make it). I don’t see the Williamses winning this.

by illini23 on Dec 3, 2008 9:36 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's what I'm afraid of.

If they don’t win, they’re either going to miss a playoff game or even maybe the beginning of next season (I’m not quite sure how they’d handle a four game suspension if there are less than four games left in a season). Let’s hope they beat it. Obviously.

In AP I trust

by FarvaForTheVikings on Dec 3, 2008 9:41 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just hoping

The Williamses lawyers can draw this thing out for a while and delay till next season, if they don’t get it completely wiped out. Then we’ll have all offseason to prepare for not having them

by illini23 on Dec 3, 2008 9:44 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they can't beat the nfl

the nfl makes it’s own rules and according to the nfl our boys are in the wrong. i strongly disagree. but this will be over turned. it is better to over turn it now and have them available for the playoffs. i do believe we can get in to the playoffs still. our defense will hold up. i also believe that childress is pushing to keep the guys on the field now to help get him to the playoffs to save his job. if we get in he’ll keep his job. i think thats more important to him than winning a playoff game. that couls always come next year. the williams’ need to suck it up and sit for 4 weeks and come back and smash whoever is unfortunate enough to meet a pissed off williams wall in round one.

wyohonky

by wyohonky on Dec 3, 2008 11:13 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm a little lost...

Does this mean the ruling just gets overturned in general or will it just delay the suspension until the playoffs?

Also, where do you teach at Gonzo?

by skiumah06 on Dec 3, 2008 9:44 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

NFLPA TO FILE THEIR OWN SUIT!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3743622

THIS IS HUGE!!!

The NFLPA getting involved and backing the players is very very important for a positive outcome to this NFL debacle.

LIONS AND PACKERS AND BEARS..... WHO CARES!!! www.vikingsvalhalla.com

by skol4life on Dec 3, 2008 10:16 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice to see the NFLPA finally grew a pair.

by Robert Rence on Dec 3, 2008 10:34 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I say Kudos to the NFLPA

And the Williams Wall for taking a stand and getting this ball rolling. I really hope it doesn’t backfire and push the suspensions into the playoffs, but I don’t think anyone can blame the Williams boys. The NFL screwed up and used these six players as scapegoats. I’m glad they aren’t just going to sit there and take it. I hope Goodell gets whats coming to him.

by cruton647 on Dec 3, 2008 11:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From the NFLPA
The Sports Nutrition Label Certification Program, created by the NFL and NFLPA, guarantees for players that certain approved companies do not manufacture any products that contain substances banned under the NFL/NFLPA Policy on Anabolic Steroids and Related Substances. Players can easily tell that they are using certified products, because all certified products contain a seal of approval (that the products have been tested and approved) on their packaging.

link

Yeah it sucks for them that they are getting suspended when they more than likely weren’t trying to cheat, but the league has made the shitty situation they put themselves in totally avoidable. They test supplements and put the clean ones on a list for the players and put a seal of approval on the supplement label. The players screwed themselves over on this one.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
Big Ten's leading Rusher, Leads FBS
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Dec 3, 2008 10:57 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shonn Greene

Just a quick note of support for Hawkeye Greene!
Every Heisman list shows a half a dozen QB’s from the Big 12, they may be great, but has anyone considered that the Big 12 may have some really crappy cornerbacks or porous pass defenses?

by DBQViking on Dec 3, 2008 11:05 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've given up on him winning the Heisman

I expect him to get the Doak Walker and hope he gets in invite in NYC at least.

Shonn Greene for Heisman
Big Ten's leading Rusher, Leads FBS
144 yards per game
6.2 yards per carry
08 TDs per game > 06 GPA

by shake n bake on Dec 3, 2008 11:10 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Others

The whole NFL policy is out of whack and I’m glad they are standing up for themselves, even if it means sacrificing a playoff game or some of next season. They have to show Roger that respectable players are not ruining the imagge of the NFL. As long as this doesn’t turn out to be a Marion Jones or Floyd Landis deal where eventually they confess they were trying to cheat.
Lets also not forget the plight of Grady Jackson, who was initially named, he may still get suspended and miss the Falcons playoff game. And also the Houston longsnapper who was not taking starcaps, but stated that he followed NFL rules and had a doctors presciption for the medicine due to an illness and had submitted it to the NFL prior to taking the medicine and was still suspended for four games.

by DBQViking on Dec 3, 2008 11:02 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Careful what we wish for

I hope this MN court ruling won’t just delay the inevitable. Let’s face it, if there is no realistic way of avoiding suspensions, then I say let them get it over with now instead of later. Sure, it would be great to have the Wall back for the final 4 games, but it would really suck to have them back to beat up on the Lions and maybe the Cards and then be out for the first couple rounds of the playoffs. And yes, I know we run the risk of not making the playoffs without them but there is no guarantee we win WITH them either. If the suspensions are going to happen, just get it over with already and have the guys back for the most important time of the year!

by AZVikesfan on Dec 4, 2008 12:17 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dont know about you all

But the Williams duo is fighting for their names and reputations which means a whole lot more then a football season.If these suspensions are upheld they lose out on the Pro Bowl,the kids that they mentor will always wonder do they cheat.They will always have that stigma attatched to their names and their careers.I say let them take it to the highest court if need be.An honest man does not fear the truth,only the Guilty fear the Truth.In my Heart I believe these 2 not because they are Vikings but because they choose to fight it out of all 6 accused.They do battle every sunday,let them battle in court,let them clear their names so that they can walk with heads up high.Lets just hope no judge they go in front be a Packer or Bears fan.

by speedlod on Dec 4, 2008 12:49 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Roger the Dodger

Godell didn’t sound off about suspending Plaxico. He left that up to the Giants to handle. A player who has had trouble before goes into a public place with innocent people around, carrying an armed weapon, basicly gets little mention from Roger. A player trying to pee off weight gets 4 games. Sounds funny. But Roger is like every sports league. Play up to the major markets and use the minor market franchises at patsies

by CitrusFLViking on Dec 4, 2008 2:58 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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