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Vikings Run Defense - Is Pat Williams slowing down?

Pioneer Press deputy sports editor John Pluym, stated that the Vikings run defense has slipped from previous years and that Pat Williams is starting to show his age:  http://www.twincities.com/ci_13561319

I have been wondering about that myself.  We certainly haven't looked as dominant as in prior years and the run defense numbers against mediocre teams are not encouraging. I was particularly surprised at how well the Lions ran against us in the 1st half.

 How do you see it?  Is it a trend?  Does the blame fall on Phat Pat or are there other factors to consider?

This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.

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Wondering Myself

I too had started to notice that Phat Pat wasn’t stuffing the run like he did the last couple years. I also noticed the success some teams have had running against the Vikings this year.

by Midnight Rambler on Oct 15, 2009 11:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You might also notice that none of these teams are running off-tackle.

Pat is getting up there in age, but he is still the same run stuffer we have always had. You just won’t see him running sideline to sideline tackling RB’s as often.

People just don’t run up the middle on us very often. When they do, they usually are only successful if they are scheming against Pat. I wouldn’t get too worried.

by Bjorno on Oct 15, 2009 12:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think you're going to see more of

Jayme Kennedy over the next few weeks alongside Kevin Williams. I think Pat is slowing down a bit, but I still think he can be a pretty valuable player if he’s rotated properly and used more on run only downs.

FWIW, teams aren’t beating us running up the middle, they’re beating us by running at the edges, specifically at the edge where Jared Allen isn’t, aka Ray Edwards. Leber has a tendency to get sucked inside for some reason and the Rams took advantage of that last weekend with Jackson.

"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller

by fourstick on Oct 15, 2009 12:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

They also get us

when JA overpursues. I saw it a couple of times against the packers and rams. That’s what happens when you are going for the sack. They just leave you a small hole to the inside and then run it around the otherside of the tackle.

by TheEvilProfessor on Oct 15, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its “Jimmie Kennedy” and “Jayme Mitchell”. Better get it right now cause Kennedy will be starting in no time.

by Jayrome007 on Oct 16, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We should know more after this week.

After all Baltimore with Their variety pack of running backs should be a real eye opener.

by lifelongvike on Oct 15, 2009 2:51 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah he's still slowing down

But he’s still in the top 90% of his class :D

by Grime on Oct 15, 2009 3:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Assuming its true, i’m ok with it.

1. In the here in now, letting teams think they can run to some degree helps us because it takes passes out of the game and the pass is where we are weak. Instead of teams abandoning the run entirely and trying to exploit our pass weaker team, we give them a run here and there then shut them down on 3rd and 5. Remember when teams would just come out passing on 1st and 10? They would get a 2nd and short more often then not and move the ball on us. If i’m not mistaken, we are giving up FEWER points this year than last year. Running keeps the clock going which plays INTO chilly’s ball control scheme. 3rd and shorts are actually EASIER to defend in the Cover 2 scheme because our linebackers can stay in closer to the line of scrimmage.

2. Into the future, should we do well this year we can spend higher draft pick on a DT. DT’s regardless of their college scheme tend to thrive in the 4-3 defense when used on running downs. So we go out and get some enormous sized DT. I feel a lot more confident in getting one of those than in getting some other skill position in the draft.

3. Lets face it, we’re probably going to spend a 1st rounder next year on a QB after putting a package deal together to move up in the draft.

We are the vikings.......resistance is futile.

by Hoss-Drone on Oct 15, 2009 4:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Also,

Jared Allen is having a BIGGER year this year. They probably aren’t related statistics – but i’d say at the least its something to think about.

We are the vikings.......resistance is futile.

by Hoss-Drone on Oct 15, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love it when people still have an eye for the upcoming draft in the middle of the season. No, seriously. I do. Its my favorite time of year and I can’t wait until the season’s over and we can start analyzing. Again, I’m dead serious.

by Jayrome007 on Oct 16, 2009 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theres a reason every team has scouts busy scouting before the season even started. A team must look at the past, present and future in different ways and for different purposes.

We are the vikings.......resistance is futile.

by Hoss-Drone on Oct 16, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A Likely Story

I suspect Jared at times has been given the green light to sic the quarterback, even if he leaves an open gap to run through doing it, since reducing the results in passing attacks against the team yields better results on average than the damage done by the runs allowed in many situations. You will note that the Vikings goal line stands are still alive and well, indicating the Vikings know how to stop the run if that is their priority.

There is something else I’ve noticed but will not mention. Vikings opponents will have to figure that out for themselves.

Of course, Pat is not getting any younger, but he was never hired as a sprinter, and his increased gravitational field may actually compensate for any reduction in his velocity. (Okay, I only said that to make Phat Pat mad and take his mind off all this legal garbage going on. Hopefully Raven running backs will experience the joy of how it feels being trapped inside a trash compactor this weekend.)

by Elgar on Oct 16, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pat Really Hasn't Got Back into his groove, dont forget that injury that kept him out the playoffs!

As The Play Snaps, One Dream, One Team, One Head Coach will be on top! Will It Be The Vikings?

by UnBannedVikingholic on Oct 15, 2009 4:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The first half of the Lion’s game wasn’t Williams. It was the LBs being out of position. Also, the Rams game wasn’t Williams. They were running to the outsides, and our CBs had trouble breaking their blocks to make a tackle.

by Frost on Oct 15, 2009 6:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good Question

Big Pat’s balls are pretty old, but I think he’s the type of player who get stronger as the season goes on and is better the bigger the game/situation. I would be fine seeing Fred Evans and Jimmy Kennedy getting more snaps to keep Pat fresh for, well you know…just to early to start talking like that.

by Spartan99 on Oct 15, 2009 10:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Pat WIlliams is 37 or 38. Bound to happen.

Also, I’ve seen some extremely questionable angles from run support tacklers (including EJ Henderson). But in particular the safeties.

Beyond that, there’s probably more than a few additional variables happening, but that’s natural. The Vikings finished 1st in rushing yards allowed/attempt in 2006, and 2nd in both 2007 and 2008. Three years is a long time in the NFL to maintain that level of play in any given aspect, and regression was bound to happen sooner or later. The hope is the team picks up some other area, which they have in adding a passing attack to the offense.

But they probably do need to find another starter at DT in the next couple of years. Kevin Williams is still elite, but Pat, again, is in his upper 30s, and is a purely limited to 2 downs these days. They have decent depth at DT, but they will need a starter soon.

by jianfu on Oct 15, 2009 10:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with everything you said

Pat is in his late 30’s. He plays a very physical position, so obviously he’s going to be a little slower than previous years.

There’s more to this Run-Defense than the Williams Wall. EJ and a few others haven’t exactly been 100% neither.

This will most likely be Phat-Pats last year in the NFL, so I’m sure we’ll be drafting a DT after this year.

by chaosg on Oct 16, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Safeties

Agree on poor run support from Johnson and Williams. At times it has been embarrassing.

This D would be outstanding with Robert Griffith in his prime. We would have 4 of the best run stoppers in history — 2 of the biggest (the Williams Wall) and perhaps the 2 smallest and most effective tacklers ever (Griffith and Winfield).

Having said that, the weakness of the D is the passing game — particularly in the middle of the field, which is LBs and Safeties executing the scheme. That’s where I think the focus should be on improving.

TiggerSr

by TiggerSr on Oct 17, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I miss...

Joey Browner.

"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

by cryhavoc on Oct 18, 2009 3:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Packers fan perspective

I have paid close attention to him in the games I have watched you guys play in and it does appear he is slowing down a bit. Before it seems like he blew the G trying to block him, and would push him a couple steps backwards. This year he hasn’t had that same explosion, and he kind of just holds down his position in the line. Now, it’s not like that’s a bad thing. He is huge and takes up a ton of space.

But it does seem like teams are having the most success running right up the gut behind the C or off-tackle at Allen. It should be a good test this week as the Ravens love to pound McGahee up the gut and Rice off tackle.

by packallday555 on Oct 16, 2009 1:11 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Anyone else notice Jimmie Kennedy is doing very well

He’s seeing more snaps than previous years and has looked very good. Only a very small drop-off from Phat Pat and I think he’ll continue to get better. We may already have out next starter, which would allow for drafting a middle round developmental guy with all the physical tools in a couple of years.

by ChemErik on Oct 16, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

He's fine

Teams aren’t running up the gut and we’ve stonewalled teams 5 times now on the goal line. Running game has had a lot to do with teams running in passing situations down big late and also our linebackers and safeties taking bad angles. Our LB’s have been over aggressive at times this season.

Nobody’s beaten us with the run yet, or the pass for that matter. I can’t get that worked up just because a couple teams have managed 60 or 70 yards of running.

by Sand0 on Oct 16, 2009 3:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

91 yards a game

We have only been giving up 91 yards a game on the ground. I see a couple of teams below 80 thats impressive, but I doubt that they will be there by the end of the season. We were best in the league last year with about the same average.

it is better to be thought of as dumb then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Ben Franklin

by montana vikes fan on Oct 16, 2009 7:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Pat sure didn't look slow today.

Just ask Baltimore if Pat Williams is any good. He hurt them up front.

by lifelongvike on Oct 18, 2009 11:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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