Mistakes Aside, Vikings Take Control Against Detroit
by Anthony21 on Nov 15, 2009 4:44 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings 2009 Season
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PrintThis wasn't quite the dominant performance some were expecting, but the Vikings nevertheless overcame some stumbles to avoid yet another dramatic finish -- and they came out of the bye week with a solid win.
What went wrong for the Vikings today? Simple: Unforced errors. Too many penalties (though some, most notably a roughing the passer call which ultimately gave the Lions seven points rather than three, were horrible calls), a turnover by Adrian Peterson as he sprinted his way toward the endzone (with Sidney Rice missing an opportunity to recover the fumble), too many dropped passes (I'm looking at you, Bernard Berrian), and a couple promising drives early on that failed to land any points for the Vikings.
But if the negative aspects of this game were mainly things the Vikings inflicted on themselves, that could almost be considered a positive. It gives Chilly something to bug his players about. It proves that this team still has progress to make, despite its 8-1 record and its commanding lead in the NFC North.
On the positive side, Sidney Rice was absolutely spectacular. His outstanding season continued today with seven receptions and 201 yards -- so he was responsible for well over half of Brett's 344 passing yards. The passing game headlined this one, though Adrian did land himself a spot on the highlight reel with an amazing 22-yard touchdown run in the first half that gave the Vikings a 10-0 edge. Still, his fumblitis remains an issue.
It's tough to say much more about this game -- the Vikings probably should have took control earlier than they did, but even during some of their first half stumbles, they never seemed to be legitimately in danger of losing the game (T-Jack even got in the act after a Favre-to-Dugan touchdown sealed the deal). Brett Favre continues to stretch the field while limiting his mistakes and avoiding turnovers. Kevin Smith posed some problems for the Vikings defense, but the D nevertheless played well enough to win. Only the various unforced errors and miscues ever put the result of this game in doubt -- and when the result of the game was in doubt, it wasn't in doubt for long. The Vikings controlled the game more than the score would indicate.
The missed opportunities in the first half to put the Lions away early, along with the penalties, give the Vikings something to build off of in future weeks. And indeed, this was hardly a perfect performance. But 27-10 looks the same in the standings as 45-0, and Sidney's brilliance easily overshadows any of the downers from this game.
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8-1 sounds good to me. :)
Now Lets Bron Doushemanzadeh to Minneapolis!
Purple Haze is the worlds greatest Natural Resource.
by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Nov 15, 2009 5:04 PM CST reply actions
Roger gets richer...
How much will Goodell get from Ray Edwards for the mystery helmet to helmet hit?
by DBQViking on Nov 15, 2009 5:12 PM CST via mobile reply actions
he still launched, which you can't do
penalty or no, it was still an awesome play to watch. My friend and i were just laughing after every replay at how gratuitous it was.
Lurking since 2006
by boyonthedock on Nov 15, 2009 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
I remember seeing and my room mate was like HOLY SHIT WHAT A HIT!!!! All I could think of was 15 yards and a hefty fine for Ray Ray…
Still it warmed the cockles of my heart.. Also made me think of the fan post showing videos of the 73 team hammering QB’s down.. Maybe Ray came over and saw that…
Vikings Magic Number is...
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 15, 2009 10:42 PM CST up reply actions
One big improvement
No 2nd half collapse by the D, but alot of stupid penalties by the O. Still think the call against Edwards was a bullshit one as it was not head on and a glaze at best and not intentional. As for Rice, big congrats. I know there were some before the start of the season who thought he would never really be much but I had a feeling he was going to show up as the WR I thought he would be and more then happy to say we now have one of the best WR groups between him and Harvin. Now if B.B. would be a little more consistent.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
he was horizntal at least at shoulder level
you can’t even do that to a running back
Lurking since 2006
by boyonthedock on Nov 15, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
Not if this is true via the A.P.
“Edwards was flagged for unnecessary roughness after hurdling a cut block with a Superman-style leap to take down Stafford and force an incompletion on third down at the 13, leading to Detroit’s only TD. Childress called NFL officiating VP Mike Pereira after the game to complain about that call, and he said Pereira agreed with him that it wasn’t a penalty.”
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 16, 2009 12:43 AM CST up reply actions
Hey!
I don’t want to hear any complaints about the refs, now.
"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
by cryhavoc on Nov 16, 2009 1:39 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks to...
less cowbell, more ’neau for the idea.
"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
That's funny!
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 16, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHA
THAT is funny….can hardly wait to see that hit by Edwards…..and the rest of the game too….
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Nov 16, 2009 8:39 AM CST up reply actions
The Vikings regained their composure
The main thing is when you are out on the football field, you just have to play the game no matter what situation comes up. After that call occurred, the Lions were able to score a touchdown pretty easily. If that situation arises again, it will be an opportunity for the defense to toughen up mentally and hold the other side to a FG or get a turnover.
The Vikings did regain their composure after that and didn’t let that adversity lead to a whole series of problems.
by medicineball on Nov 16, 2009 7:49 AM CST up reply actions
One big improvement
No 2nd half collapse by the D, but alot of stupid penalties by the O. Still think the call against Edwards was a bullshit one as it was not head on and a glaze at best and not intentional. As for Rice, big congrats. I know there were some before the start of the season who thought he would never really be much but I had a feeling he was going to show up as the WR I thought he would be and more then happy to say we now have one of the best WR groups between him and Harvin. Now if B.B. would be a little more consistent.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
Whoa
Sorry about the double post as I didnt do that
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 15, 2009 6:10 PM CST up reply actions
I think our defense
has been our most consistent aspect of our game this season. Yes there have been some collapses late in games, but overall, they are playing better as an overall unit that I think I’ve ever seen the vikings play (I wasn’t alive in the 70’s).
You could say we’re not the top run defense this year, but we are still shutting teams down on important drives, and our stats on 3rd down defense have to be absolutely sick at this point. I feel like if we get anyone on 3rd down they’re pretty much punting.
As for the secondary, was glad to see winfield take the rest, we’ll need him next week vs seattle, but I have to say the secondary played pretty good last game, given it was vs detroit, but I thought Cedric Griffin made some nice plays on Megatron, but Megatron also made some nice catches. A guy like that is tough to stop every play, he’s gonna be a beast if detroit ever gets an offensive line.
Also, does anyone have any kind of stat on a success rate for Favre throwing deep passes this season? I feel like everytime he launches one it almost always gets caught.
It's been much better recently
The Vikings rank 26th in passer rating allowed. They are tied with Houston and Seattle for the 18th best ANY/A allowed, and they are tied with the Lions for 26th in INTs. They are tied for 5th in fumble recoveries. This defense leads the league in sacks, and I’m sure it has helped to play poor OLs like the Packers’ and Lions’ twice plus the Niners’, Rams’ and Browns’. Especially when one considers how many cupcake teams they have faced, those low ranking are alarming.
You don’t need to go back to the 70s to find a Vikings team with a significantly better passing defense. Last year, the Vikings had the 16th lowest passer rating allowed, 4th best in sacks, and 15th lowest ANY/A allowed. They tied for 21st in INTs and tied for 8th in fumble recoveries. It was the first okay year for the defense in the Childress/Frazier era.
In 2006, Mike Tomlin was the defensive coordinator. Those Vikings ranked 5th in passer rating allowed, 5th in INTs, tied for 5th in fumble recoveries, tied for 12th lowest ANY/A allowed and tied for 25th in sacks. (In my humble opinion, sacks are probably overrated as long as the job gets done by 3 of the other metrics).
In 2003, the Vikes allowed the 4th lowest passer rating, ranked 12th in sacks, and had the 2nd most INTs and tied for a spot in the top 8 in least ANY/A allowed. That was Corey Chavous’s first full season at SS instead of CB, an idea the Vikings could have explored and probably should explore in the near future.
Complaining about the Refs
Bitching about the officiating is never a good sign. Except maybe for one in the NBA, they really aren’t on the take. They are part of the conditions of the game that a good team handles better than a poor team does.
Edwards launched himself in the air and hit Stafford’s helmet with his helmet. Does not matter if it was unintnentional. It was clearly a proper call in my view. Very unfortunate. I just shrug. Hey, that’ll happen.
The horse-collar that wasnbn’t called on the guy who tackled AP and forced his fumble — that clearly should have been called and wasn’t. A 7=point no-call. Shrug. It happens (alot to AP, apparently).
AP’s fumble appeared to be caused by his surprise at being caught from behind. Perhaps AP has lost half-a-step from his rookie year before his injury. Great run though.
False start by Kleinsasser; offsides by Robison on a Lions’ punt? Ouch. No shrug there. That has GOT to be corrected.
Why run Dugan at the STRENGTH of the entire Lions team on 4th and a foot???? That’s just stupidity. I hope Childress learns from that.
My overall impression: a) my gawd, the Lions are awful and the Vikes really are a superior team — the contrast was so huge; and b) the unforced errors will be this team’s downfall if they don’t stop before the playoffs.
TiggerSr
I pretty much agree w/everything you said
The Refs will always be apart of the game, it’s up to the players to play clean and not allow the refs to decide their game.
If somebody popped Favre like Edwards did to Stafford, we would want a roughing the passer penalty too.
The horse-collar on AP was a bad non-call. If not horse collar, at least an illegal block after the fumble.
AP fumbles a lot. I believe he leads the league in fumbles.
False starts @HOME are unacceptable.
Dugan on 4th and short is never a good idea. Play calling like that makes me not want Chilly as a coach.
The Lions are bad, but that’s to be expected. They’ve always been bad:)
At this point the Vikings control their own destiny. They’re 4-0 in their division, and favored to win with only 2 more games against the mediocre Bears..
Can the Vikings stay focused from now til February?, that’s the million dollar question:)
Go Vikes!
It's not so much the refs
as it is the RULE. I understand the meaning behind not doing helmet to helmet, and I feel like blatant attacks on a player that are meant to injure him should be penalized heavily, however, I feel like plays in Edwards’ case are complete bullsh!t. Like the Tom Brady rule, to protect QB’s knees, it’s total garbage, really? We need to protect someone’s knee? It’s almost like you can’t tackle the QB anymore, it’s getting ridiculous.
I don’t want anyone to get hurt, but guess what, they chose their fate. Guys who wanted to be studs in HS and College by being a QB who get all the girls and make a ton of money…I don’t feel one bit sorry for you if you take an incidental hit to the helmet while being tackled, and I don’t think anyone else cares either.
THAT is why the fans were booing…
(Fuck Goodell)
The League does not feel sorry for the QBs
The NFL cares about its owners - or more precisely — the $$ the owners make. That is why the NFL exists. Period. Injuries to million dollar QBs hurt the owners bottom line much more than injuries at any other position. Hence the rule. No one cares about protecting the the QBs feelings more than the feelings of anyone else. It’s about $$.
TiggerSr
Whats a defender supposed to do?
I understand the reasoning behind some of these “Princess QB” rules, but my question is how are the defensive players supposed to avoid them? For example, on the dubious Ray Edwards play, he had a guy diving at his legs. What was he supposed to do, just take the block and back out of the play? He did what any athlete would do and leaped over him. Its not like he sat there for a sec and said “Hmm, I suppose I could leap over him, but then there is a small chance I could accidentally hit the QB in the head and I believe thats a personal foul. I’d better not do that.” No, he reacted with the same instincts that define great players (not saying he’s great) and leaped over the blocker. Technically it was a foul, but I have nothing wrong with that play.
All about the $$, but not so much about injuries
I think that the NFL’s concern about injuries to QBs is secondary to their desire to see higher scoring games. Protecting the QBs and the WRs is key to ensuring those higher scores. They know that the public likes higher scoring games, more red-zone thrills, which translates into higher revenues for, again, the owners.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
By the end of the game I seriously felt bad for Stafford
When he ran an entire down with his shoulder pad sticking out I realize Minnesota was hitting him way to much. I think by the end of the game he had taken 33 hits… Only was sacked like twice.. I will say this Rodgers can learn something from Stafford and I think he will be a great QB in the future if the Lions don’t kill him first.
He's definately a competitor
and I have a feeling that in a few years if detroit has a couple good drafts, they could beat the Vikes…
Lions were due
Looks like Stafford may be the real thing. I was not alive the last time the Lions had a great QB (I dont count Hipple as great), so it must have been at least a half-century drought for the Lions. They were due. We shall see.
TiggerSr
It wont be long
They are clearly improving. Which I suppose isn’t really that hard coming off a zero win season. But still, they are playing hard and do have a fair amount of young talent on the roster.
Biggest help they got was getting rid of Millen. For the supposed lack of talent in this past draft and unloading Williams, they did very well. Even for all the banging up he got, Stafford looked pretty poised for a QB on a team still scraping bottom. A few more smart picks and a few more solid F.A. acquisitions, this could be a team to deal with in a few years. I also think they have themselves a very competent and up and coming coaching staff as well.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 16, 2009 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe?
Maybe one ref was taking money? Before the dopey guy got caught, most everyone mocked people who thought that even one guy was on the take. Where can I buy a copy of the one guy’s book?
Gambling is an enormous industry and has been involved in sports all along. We’re not living in some magic time.
Hell cooled by 27 degrees today...
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Nov 15, 2009 7:47 PM CST reply actions
Ray Edwards
If Ray Edwards keeps playing well, and other guys keep playing well, they better get some parkas down there.
by medicineball on Nov 16, 2009 7:51 AM CST up reply actions
Did anyone see...
Did anyone see what caused the refs to throw a flag for DEFENSIVE DELAY OF GAME on a Detroit punt? They called one in the Pittsburgh game, also. Did anyone actually see what happened to convince the ref to throw the flag?
I agree "WTF"
I think its only a penalty against the Vikings defense. I have yet to hear of another team getting this penalty.
by midnightwonder on Nov 16, 2009 6:58 AM CST up reply actions
Explanation I heard
The explanation I heard is that, when lining up, a defender isn’t allowed to move his hands in a way that could induce an offensive player to flinch, which would be a false start. I didn’t see a replay of Paymah moving his hands in that way, but that is apparently what the referee said happened.
by medicineball on Nov 16, 2009 7:54 AM CST up reply actions
As of now Rice is the second leading wide receiver in the entire NFL in yards. Behind Andre Johnson.
Ya, seriously, shhhhh
He is still getting single coverage all game long and is absolutely blowing it up. Keep it comin’.
Message to the league:
“Watch out for that Adrian Peterson fella. I hear he’s pretty dangerous. The only way to stop the Vikings is to stack the box against him and leave their WRs in single coverage all game long.”
Go ahead NFL, double cover Rice....
Then that leads Harvin open to single coverage……woops, we have to double cover him now…..leaving Rice in single coverage. No worries about double teaming I can see. Just like 10 years ago. Double cover Carter, bam, Moss bites you, double cover Moss, Carter bites you. the NFL will have to pick the poison on top of A.P. as well.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 16, 2009 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
Ok, I see your point. But comparing Rice/Harvin to Moss/Carter might be a tad premature, don’t you think?
Perhaps
But I will have to say Rice has stepped into his own, and while Harvin is still a rookie, there are flashes of future greatness. But I will say, I really wasent meaning a true side by side comparison, just a referance really. They may double team Rice, but that’s gonna leave an equally potent WR open. Sorry for the confusion.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 17, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
Play calls were good; AP comments
I like the reverse pitch from AP to PH. Yes, it resulted in a fumble today, but once the guys get it working, it will be a nice play that adds a wrinkle and gives the defense more to worry about.
Handing it off to the fullback more is a good move. If the Vikings can make that work, it will open up more opportunities for Peterson and Taylor.
AP does carry the ball very low, and he swings it a lot as he runs and pumps his arms. As we saw today, he doesn’t have the same speed at this point in the season.
The second fumble, resulting in a touchback, was a “forced error.” The Lions defender made a terrific play to force the turnover.
I hope that reverse gets done once a year
And that was it for this year.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 15, 2009 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
Buchannon
Buchannon is very fast, AP spent a lot of energy breaking that play (couple of jukes, cuts, and planted his hand on the floor). Great play by Buchannon, AP got caught by surprised, It’s insane to insinuate that AP is slow at this time of the year.
Skol Vikings!!
Yes, I take that back.
You said, it turns out it was Buchanon and Buchanon is very fast. This does change my view. AP is fast, but he’s probably not the fastest guy on the field. He just got surprised. We have to give credit to Buchanon for making a great play.
It appears that when AP gets into a breakaway run, he starts toting the ball very low. He might have to keep the ball locked into his abdomen for the duration of all his runs. Not sure.
The other thing is Bienemy. He has been AP’s only running back coach in the pros. Maybe it’s time for a new RB coach. Bienemy has taught AP a lot, though. Not sure.
by medicineball on Nov 16, 2009 8:00 AM CST up reply actions
I like the reverse pitch from AP to PH.
I don’t. Rinky dink college crap. There are other ways to get Harvin in the offense, like throwing to him.
by VikingBillArlingtonVA on Nov 15, 2009 10:36 PM CST reply actions
According to Childress
It was specificall installed to exploit a weakness in the way Lions play defense — overpursuit, especially towards AP. As Favre said, if the pitch had been executed properly, it would have scored. That’s not rinky dink. That’s Childress growing up and doing something other than trying to “impose his will” on the other guys. It bodes well for the future, even if the play is never run again.
TiggerSr
likewise the Dugan call on 4th and 1
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Nov 16, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Dugan was a good option there
On the reply, Loadholt and Kleinsasser made their blocks. Two Lions defenders penetrated through blocks by Herrera and Sullivan.
Kevin Seifert at ESPN: “Prior to Sunday’s play, Dugan had converted seven of his eight career carries into first downs. On the play, Lions defensive tackle Grady Jackson crashed into the backfield and stopped Dugan. Jackson probably would have wrapped up tailback Adrian Peterson as well.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/6190/third-and-one-vikings-9
by medicineball on Nov 16, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
The problem I had wasn't
that they handed off to Dugan…but that they ran at Grady Jackson…that’s like running at Pat Williams…just stupid.
by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 16, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
MMMMmmmmmmmm.... chocolate...
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Nov 17, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
I think I can I think I can………..daaaaar, thanks da coach Shwartz…….I now play football……duh, were is my Jeeeeeenny? I are not Dame Branaged………
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 17, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
Self Scouting during bye Week
Chilly should be banned from self scouting during the bye week, he didnt go to his bread n butter plays in the red zone. The reverse on a short field is the stupidest play you can call, Dugan on a 4 n 1 up the middle is insane!, and running it on a draw on a long 3rd down is a give up play. We left 3 td’s on the field today due to turnovers/loss of down. Pound the rock with AP! it doesnt get any simpler than that. Penalties are a product of the bye week, it was an absurd amount for a team playing at home, but like any high performance machine, it takes a bit to get to top speed after shutting it down.
After the worst 3 qtrs of Vikings football, I began to see that finely tuned machine in the 4th. The penalties are easy to clean up and the Lions seem to be AP’s kryptonite. If it was any other opponent, they would have made us pay for our mistakes and made the game a lot more interesting.
Skol Vikings!!
Fullback
If the fullback is a legitimate threat to pick up the first down in that situation, it would put more pressure on the defense, and allow AP to convert more easily. Remember, he needed all four downs in Lambeau against Green Bay to punch it into the end zone.
by medicineball on Nov 16, 2009 8:01 AM CST up reply actions
FB
Yes, but Dugan was drafted as a TE and may not have the running power of a true FB or H-back like Kleinsasser or even Tahi.
FB in this offense
I would LOVE to see the team draft a stud FB in the draft this year. Someone who can not only block but also catch the swing pass (and do something with it, unlike Tahi) and pound the rock every once in awhile. Because most of the league undervalues the position and lots of teams dont even use one, they can come pretty cheap. Most years the best FB in the draft usually lasts until at least the 4th round. With the depth we have, I think we can swing a 4th round pick on one.
Agreed.
I, too, am a fan of a good FB. I was hoping that they would draft Fiametta this year, but that didn’t work out.
Tahi should be a good FB, all things considered. He started at HB at BYU, and I finally saw him have a good play or 2 this year. Maybe there is hope.
What I don’t get is how Kleinsasser was demoted ever since Childress arrived in town, yet the team still pays him mad cash (usually in the top 10 highest salaries).
Horse collar on Petersons fumble?
One of the worst officiated games ever…Did you see Ray Buchanan’s horse collar on Peterson right as he was knocking the ball out…On the replay it shows the ref right there on the sideline watching the ball flying out of Peterson’s hand and he never calls the horse collar…In fact Buchanan pulls Peterson all the way down to the ground by his collar…The announcers didn’t
say a word about it in fact nobody’s even mentioned it…not even this article…Peterson had a great game besides the muffed pitch to Harvin…Was it just me or did anyone else see that???
BigSky Viking
If he doesn’t use the horse collar, he never slows AD down enough to punch the ball out. He grabs the horse collar with his left, then he punches the ball with his right and then continues to pull AD to the ground with the horse collar and wrapping up with his right. The horse collar penalty was implemented to prevent broken legs to ball carriers. They can be just as career ending as a shot to the head: which Ray Edwards did not do. Even the league admitted that was a bad call. Why are people arguing Ray committed a foul? If anything he was blocked up and into the QB. It was a great play, he made an effort not to hurt the QB while making a play on the ball. If that is a flag, they might as well all wear flags…as in flag football.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
The announcers talked about what a great play it was. Besides the horse collar, can you really tackle players without the ball to prevent them from recovering a loose ball?
Yes
First off, it was a good NON call by the refs, because you have to BRING HIM DOWN by the act of pulling him by the collar BACKWARDS all the way to the ground. The defender grabbed the collar but didn’t pull him backwards, it was a safe play.
Second, yes, there’s no loose ball fouls like in the NBA. I am fairly certain you can do anything to anybody (maybe even holding) if there’s a fumble on the ground, but in peterson’s case he had the ball that play so you could make the argument the player was just finishing the tackle.
Disagree
He did pull AP down with the horse collar. Your points are a bit inconsistent. The horse collar was part of a tackle, so it was not “holding,” but the horse collar was not part of a tackle, so it was not a penalty for horse collar.
It’s not hard to see why the ref missed the call, given the fumble. Had there been no fumble, I think the flag would have been thrown. It was a missed call. It happens.
TiggerSr
BigSky Viking
You should get out your rule book…a horse collar is a horse collar is horse collar. 15 yards. First and Goal.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
BigSky Viking
Repy button seems to be wandering. Meant to reply to dcdubs, who doesn’t seem to know the rules.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
From what I saw
and what I’ve heard it wasn’t a horse collar tackle. Just grabbing it isn’t a penalty, you just can’t pull him backwards, and I don’t remember seeing that. Pretty sure I wasn’t dwelling on it so that I could argue with you about it.
I’d still be willing to bet that even if the refs saw it, and maybe they did, they wouldn’t have called it a horse collar tackle. A tackle is a tackle is a tackle, UNLESS HE DOESNT HAVE THE BALL, then it’s not officially a “tackle”. It’s a free for all at that point…
Good game for the Vikes
This was the kind of game that the Vikings have shown up flat for in the past. That wasn’t a problem yesterday when the Vikes had over 300 yards in the first half. The unforced fumble and Kleinsasser’s illegal procedure penalty held the score close for a while, but the Vikes always seemed to be checked in to the game mentally. In the scond half when they did take control, the defense kept the pressure up instead of caving. While I didn’t understand all of the play calls on offense, I am happy that the Vikes took care of business yesterday.
I was happy to see Childress coach all 60 minutes of the game
instead of thinking well he have a two score lead lets jump into prevent!
that all being sad (the article), the Vikes DID close out this game strongly, unlike other games. drove up from WI to watch the game with friends at The Local. nice Irish bar. i have to say that AP isn’t what i expected. clarify = he’s good, BUT remember what everyone said before the season started? that all Favre would have to do is manage the game and hand the ball to AP?? well Favre’s doing more than just THAT. SKOL VIKES! SKOL FAVRE!
Stop complaining about the Ray Edwards call
Cedric Griffin led with his helmet when he forced a fumble, so that should have been spearing.
I didn’t see the Ray Edwards call more than once or twice, but 1) I’m convinced that someone made contact with Stafford’s helmet on that play, 2) it is illegal to slap a guy’s helmet as well, and one of those 2 things happened on that play.
Bottom line: this was another low-quality opponent, and they still needed the refs to ignore a spearing call which would have nullified a turnover?
BTW, any one have a video of that?
Does anyone have a link to a video of the Ray Edwards “personal foul” play?
Thanks in advance.
by medicineball on Nov 16, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
I saw it several times on ESPN just now (and went back and forth via digital cable). Even if the helmets didn’t collide, it’s still a very high hit on a QB, which is also illegal last I’d heard.
BigSky Viking
So you admit the helmet might not have even made contact. You sound like a flag football sissy. Please go watch some golf or something.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
KC does
but he don’t wanna share cause it proves the helmets did not make contact.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions
BigSky Viking
You only saw it once or twice? They showed it more than that during the game. Ray made a great play and the refs stole it from him. The league even admitted as much. That does not happen very often. Its FOOTBALL. Maybe you should go watch tennis
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
Tennis
In tennis, they have a “cyclops” system that makes calls for the officials. That seems like the perfect alternative for all those Ray Edwards crybabies out there.
So you’d have preferred getting the Ray Edwards call correct and also having a penalty assigned to Cedric Griffin for spearing, thereby nullifying a turnover? My point is that, on balance, a smart Vikings fan should be thrilled that they got both of those 2 calls wrong rather than both of them correct.
BigSky Viking
And you forget the horse collar on AD? Defensive penalty happened before the fumble….makes it Minnesota ball. Not sure about the spot, but probably half the distance from the spot of the foul…first and goal. Horse collars are just as illegal as a helmet to helmet, which I think is overblow. Many helmets come in contact with each other during the course of a play. Its the violent deliberate spear job that draws the flag. I would have to see the replay on Griffin’s forced fumble, but I don’t remember anything all that serious. Besides if they weren’t going to call that they should be consistent with the play on Ray Edwards. The league even admitted to the bad call, so just maybe you are wrong about the contact and should check the replay.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
I didn’t forget the grab before the fumble, which is what it was. Since Buchanan didn’t actually tackle him, it was a fumble. Had it been a real tackle of any sort, then there would have been no fumble, but since it didn’t bring AP down, it was not a horse collar tackle. AP should have felt Ray’s presence and at least moved/protected the ball before the fumble was forced, too.
Griffin’s helmet caused the fumble, and it was the first part of his body to come into contact with the other guy’s. How could that not be spearing? I know I’m right about this one, and my point still stands: better to have gotten both wrong than both right.
BigSky Viking
how can anyone argue with that backwards messed up logic. You should look up Horse Collar in the rule book. Besides I will take consistently right over consistenly wrong anyday. By your logic we should have voted in Bill Ayers.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
Horse collar tackle explained
You may read several explanations here.
The definition of a horse collar tackle is grabbing a guy’s neck, pads, or jersey from behind and immediately bringing him down (especially with a twisting motion). Buchanan did not bring down AP immediately or even tackle him successfully, so it cannot be called a horse collar tackle.
At least this game was a somewhat convincing win. Last year, it took a Dan Orlovsky safety and a bad call vs. the Lions to not lose to a team that went 0-16!
The way I saw it, and Understand it
The only thing buchanon was holding onto was Petersons horse collar. In stride, from behind, Buchanon tackled Peterson by his horse collar. The act of trying to bring a player down with the football is an attempt to tackle. Buchanon made an illegal play and it happened prior to the ball coming out. If Phillip had grabbed Petersons shoulders or arms initially and then followed it up with his other hand on a the horse collar then his intent would not have been to tackle by the horse collar. However, after watching it a couple of times, its very clear he grabbed his horse collar which brought caused him to lean backwards and to the ground.
BigSky Viking
I agree…If that wasn’t a horse collar, I don’t know what is. It was deliberate cheating. Ray Edwards made a clean sack and forced fumble. Big difference. The league even back up Childress on that one….why are all these Viking “fans” arguing against our players?
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
No tackle occurred
That is the #1 reason that it wasn’t a horse collar TACKLE…because THERE WAS NO TACKLE. In order for it to be a horse collar tackle, the defender must grab the player by the collar (pads, neck, or jersey collar) and immediately bring him down (especially with a twisting motion).
- AP carried him for a few yards and fumbled before going down a few more yards later (by then, Buchanan appeared to have him properly wrapped up).
It was example #2 in the link I’d provided. NCAA and high schools adopted the same rule change regarding horse collar tackles at about the same time. At all levels, the idea is to call it only on the most severe infractions, thus so many exceptions to the rule.
BigSky Viking
You should look at the replay again. Define immediate. AD ended up on the ground, solely because of the horse collar. Period. I am sick of arguing with Anti Non Viking fans. Good Nite. Your logic is about as wacked as Nancy Pelosi.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
You will be done posting here if you don't stop it with the politics!
Keep it up!
For reference, watch one of the tackles which created the rule (on T.O. or Tyrone Calico). You will see a big difference between the # of yards AP ran after initial “horse collar contact” and those guys.
While you’re at it, look up high hit on the QB rules, too. Ray Edwards was in the wrong, and it will be interesting to see if that play is part of the officials show on ESPN or NFL Network.
Flag Football
Coach Childress already checked with the NFL on that one. The boss said it wasn’t an illegal hit. I’ll take his word for it. So you want me to believe some high school ref in Kanas knows more than the head of the NFL Refs? You sure your not a Chiefs fan?
by BigSkyViking on Nov 16, 2009 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
No horse collar on AP
That ruling is very consistent. On AP’s forced fumble, he wasn’t down until he’d carried Buchanan 15 yards. You may look up examples of horse collar tackles on NFL Network and see for yourself that they will be down in 1-3 steps, usually no more than 2-3 yards from the initial horse collar contact.
As for the Ray Edwards incident, there is too much going on with the wrong angles that I’ve found to know for certain. I’m aware that Pereira has supposedly said that it wasn’t a penalty, but I’d like to know if he viewed an overhead angle to verify helmet to helmet or hand to helmet contact or not. It seems like that would be the definitive viewpoint required to make that call.
That’s a creative use of language. He immediately brought him down after he had punched the ball loose. Given your interpretation, a defender could latch on to a guy and ride him for a few yards and then snap him down hard.
See other links in this thread
There is a link which outlines what is and isn’t a horse collar tackle in about 8 examples (the second one refers to a situation much like AP/Buchanan’s).
It took about 15-16 yards from the first contact to what would have been down had he held onto the ball. Watch it again on NFL.com replays (it’s at 1:18). Buchanan grabs AP at about the 21, punches the ball out by the 18 or 19, and AP’s knee or thigh or hand doesn’t touch the turf until the 6 yd line.
There is a link in this thread to a definitive horse collar tackle on Donovan McNabb which happened in the space of 2-3 yards. You may look up other examples on nfl.com and see for yourself that all were real tackles. Most of them happened in a space of about 2-4 yards and a few happened in less than 10 yards, but none were non-tackles in the space of 15 yds.
Your whole argument
rests upon the notion that a tackler can’t hold on for a bit. That link is a guy talking about college football.
The rules are the same
You mean my argument rests on the notion that a tackler CAN hold on for a bit, as Buchanan did on Sunday.
Here are 2 places that you can read the official NFL rule: in a Scout.com article about new rules for 2006 and a PDF of the 2006 NFL rulebook (page 80 of the document/page 88 according to the finder/viewer, toward the bottom, in a box. It’s section 2 article 1d.).
Thanks for the link
but my puter is too bogged down to play the video right now, so I guess I will just have to take Coach Childress’ word for it that it was a horse collar and I am going to believe him over some lawyer boy in Kansas.
by BigSkyViking on Nov 18, 2009 10:46 PM CST up reply actions
Not the NFL Rules
Your link is to some local high school rules (or pee wee, I’m not sure).
Surprisingly, the current NFL Rulebook is not on the web.. it seems the NFL wants you to buy it from Amazon. The rules in effect in 2006 are on the web: http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
However, it appears that the horse-collar rule was added after 2006, so I could not find the exact wording of the rule.
I doubt it is legal to horse-collar tackle any player to the ground, whether he has the ball or not. I note that under Rule 8, Section 4, Article 4, Supplemental note (3), “After a … fumble touches the ground, any player may legally block or otherwise use his hands or arms to push or pull an opponent out of the way but only in an actual personal attempt to recover.”
This suggests that, even if one were to assume that the horse collar takedown of AP was not a violation of the horse collar rule because it was not a “tackle” because the ball had already been fumbled, it was still illegal defensive holding because Buchanan did it without making a personal attempt to recover the fumble.
TiggerSr
NCAA and HSs adopted the same rule
That is the #1 reason that it wasn’t a horse collar TACKLE…because THERE WAS NO TACKLE. In order for it to be a horse collar tackle, the defender must grab the player by the collar (pads, neck, or jersey collar) and immediately bring him down (especially with a twisting motion). Buchanan was probably still holding onto AP because he still thought that he had the ball, much like an attempted tackle on a WR who doesn’t catch the ball is not a penalty, either.
- AP carried him for a few yards and fumbled before going down a few more yards later (by then, Buchanan appeared to have him properly wrapped up). In this real horse collar tackle, you can see McNabb is brought down immediately and within 2-3 yards (not even what would have been 2 full strides).
It was example #2 in the link I’d provided. NCAA and high schools adopted the same rule change regarding horse collar tackles at about the same time or sometime since. At all levels, the idea is to call it only on the most severe infractions, thus so many exceptions to the rule. If anything, the HS and NCAA rules would be more strict about horse collar tackling and enforce it as often as possible, so the fact that their rule (the same rule) has all of these exceptions shows that the NFL rule (the same rule) is not as vague as you think.
This was a topic on that ESPN or NFL Network Total Access show where they talk about recent controversial calls with the head official. On one episode a year or two ago, it was noted that there is no “hair collar” rule, so someone like Ricky Williams or Troy Polamalu could legally be pulled to the ground immediately in a twisting motion and not be in violation of the rules as long as the tackle was made by the ballcarrier’s hair. It’s just one of many nuances to the rule.
When I watched the play
I saw Buchanan ring AP down to the ground by the horse collar, although it did take him several yards to do so. I see no rule that says it is not a tackle if the bal carrier fumbles before he is brought to the ground.
But again, even if it is not a “tackle,” then it is illegal defensive holding because it was not “in an actual personal attempt to recover” the fumbled ball.
TiggerSr
Maybe defensive holding
except I’m sure that Buchanan could appeal on the grounds that he didn’t know that the ball had been knocked out successfully, so in his mind it could have been an honest attempt to tackle (but not a horse collar penalty because it took 15 yards…the reason for the rule is because of the potential for injury when a player is immediately stopped because doing so effectively magnifies the impact of his steps and weight distribution and because his legs may be twisted under his own weight…so even tackling by the horse collar over 15 yards does not create that magnified impact and injury scenario. The NFL only wants to call a horse collar tackle in the most extreme cases).
1) Because it was legal for decades and they didn’t want to completely wussify tackling.
2) Because only the extreme examples caused injuries. Injuries from horse collar tackles occurred less than once per thousand tackles.
3) The NFL clearly stated that the only reason for the rule was to prevent injuries in the link below.
4) They wrote the language of the rule very specifically and deliberately.
5) For proof, just read this.
NCAA and NFL rules say the same thing
Also, your link to the NFL rules does in fact have the same language about horse collar tackling. See page 80 in the last box toward the bottom of the page. It’s Rule 12 Section 1 Article 1(d). I’d copy and paste, but I can’t since it’s a PDF.
Of course I’d prefer consistently right than consistently wrong, but as long as the NFL is relying on human officials, there will be mistakes, and this time, the combination of right/wrong calls benefitted the Vikings…so much so that it could have been the difference in the game (see last year’s 12-10 non-loss vs. DET).
We’re not really supposed to discuss politics here, but since you brought it up, consistent voting mechanisms (scantron) instead of the punch-through butterfly ballot would have meant fewer accidental votes for Pat Buchanan and enough for Gore to have won the electoral college…and yes, I’d have preferred that, too!
BigSky Viking
Opps meant to respond to KC Viking who doesn’t sound like much of a Viking.
Lions fan here
you guys have an awesome team. I can only hope the Lions could build a team like yours someday before I die.
Good luck the rest of the season and hopefully my Lions can put up more of a fight against the Vikes next season.
I know it must be hard to be a Lions fan, but keep in mind we weren’t always this good either. Patience will pay off. And it appears you’ve got some good pieces to work with. I’m liking Stafford (as a rookie, anyways) right now. He shows good moxie and talent, things Joey Harrington only possessed one at a time… in brief periods.
What is the deal with Bernard Berrian
BB is stinking up the field. I understand he is injured but he is constantly dropping passes.
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