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Comparing '98 to '09, Defense

So here’s the second half of the 98 vs. 09 team comparison.  Let’s look at the defense.  The first part can be found here.

Star-divide

DL:  John Randle/Tony Williams/Jerry Ball/Derrick Alexander vs. Ray Edwards/Kevin Williams/Pat Williams/Jared Allen.  There’s only one guy on the 1998 team I would take over the 2009 version, and that’s John Randle, and he’d rotate with Pat Williams, because as much as I loved JR, you could run right at him.  He was listed a starter at defensive end according to pro-football-reference.com, but I remember him starting at tackle and moving to end on passing downs, where he was a lot less effective.  Which leads directly to depth.  The ’98 team had to essentially neutralize their most effective pass rusher on passing downs, because they had a stronger DT in Tony Williams than they did with back-up ends Duane Clemons and Stalin Colinet.  The depth of the 2009 line is between impressive and remarkable, with former first rounder Jimmy Kennedy and solid run-stopper Fred Evans at tackle, and there’s little drop-off pass rush wise with Brian Robison on the field as opposed to Ray Edwards.  But the kick return capability does take a hit.  Jared Allen and Kevin Williams are the best in the business, and the 2009 line is the most impressive collection of defensive linemen since the Purple People Eaters.

 

LB:  Dixon Edwards/Ed McDaniel/Dwayne Rudd vs. Ben Leber/EJ Henderson/Chad Greenway.  Again, I’ll take everyone on the 2009 unit over the 1998 team.  Eddie Mac had a Pro Bowl year in 1998, but I think Henderson is the better all-around player.  Leber is one of the most under-rated LB’s in the NFL and plays both the run and pass solidly.  Chad Greenway is on the verge of multiple Pro Bowls, and was a solid draft pick, rookie year knee injury aside.  Dixon Edwards was okay, and Dwayne Rudd actually had a good year—this was the pre ‘celebrate like you won the Super Bowl after you tackled a guy 25 yards downfield’ Dwayne Rudd.

 

DB:  Corey Fuller/Jimmy Hitchcock/Robert Griffith/Orlando Thomas vs. Antoine Winfield/Cedric Griffin/Madieu Williams/Tyrell Johnson.  I like the 1998 squad here, with the exception of Antoine Winfield.  The safety position is the weak link on the 2009 squad, and it was the strong suit of the ’98 Vikings.  Fuller and Hitchcock both had career years in 1998, and Fuller cashed in during free agency.  Jimmy Hitchcock returned three of his seven picks for a TD, then remembered he was Jimmy Hitchcock and returned to his mediocre self the following year.  But he had a truly extraordinary 1998 season.  Antoine Winfield is arguably the best all-around defensive back in the NFL, and Cedric Griffin’s talent level is on the upswing, and I would take Winfield over Fuller or Hitchcock, but overall the ’98 unit is hands down better.

 

Coaching:  Dennis Green/Brian Billick (OC)/Foge Fazio (DC) vs. Brad Childress/Darrell Bevell (OC)/Leslie Frazier (DC).  Well, I never thought I’d get into a ‘who’s better’ debate between The Sheriff and Chilly.  Denny takes a fair amount of criticism over a lot of different things, and deservedly so, but he is the second winningest coach in franchise history.  Overall, good in game manager unless it was a pressure situation, and a good evaluator of offensive talent.  He was horrible, for the most part, in big games, and couldn’t develop a defensive lineman to save his life.  See above when discussing John Randle shuttling between tackle and end; that really hurt the 1998 team.  Oh, and Demetrious Underwood, really?  Really?!  Chilly is a much better overall evaluator of talent, and now that he has guys to run his system, his offense is humming.  He loses points with his inability to develop Tarvaris Jackson, but that’s not even close to the Underwood debacle.  Chilly had to get rid of a lot of old attitudes and prima donnas when he got here, and he’s done a very good job of assembling talent on both sides of the ball, whereas Denny looked at defense as an annoyance.  Of course, having Zygi Wilf as an owner helps.  Denny couldn’t win a playoff game, but he went regularly, and right away.  Chilly has yet to win a playoff game and it took him three years to get there, so edge to Denny there.  Overall, I’ll give it to Denny, but get back to me when the Chilly era has ended and we can do a complete comparison.  If we’re talking about a one year snapshot, I’ll take Chilly.  He took the big risk, and a lot of flak, for bringing in Favre, but it’s worked better than anyone would’ve thought nine games in. 

 

Billick definitely got the most out of the offensive talent of the ’98 squad, and parlayed that reputation into a head coaching gig with the Ravens, and then a Super Bowl championship a couple of years later.  Billick never found that potent an offense again, but in ’98 he was in a zone.  Every play seemed to work, and the Vikes were unstoppable offensively.  Bevell?  I still don’t know if he has full autonomy to call the plays, and how much input Childress has for that matter, the same holds true with Denny and Billick).  The 2009 offense is good, very good, but it’s not the point a minute explosion the ’98 team was, so give me Billick.  I really, really disliked Fazio’s ‘bend but don’t break’ mentality, and it came back to haunt that team in the NFC Championship.  That said, you could argue that Fazio got better results defensively with less talent than a lot of guys.  Foge had to make do with what he had, (converted WR Robert Tate as a DB, shuttling Randle, no depth) and he did pretty good, for the most part.  Leslie Frazier is a lot more aggressive than Fazio, but then again he has a lot more talent and depth than Foge did.  I’ll take Frazier over Foge, just because I’d rather have a guy that’s calling a game to win it as opposed to calling not to lose it. 

 

I thought that before I did this comparison, the 1998 team was pretty much head and shoulders above the 2009 squad, with the exceptions of one or two positions.  After looking at them a lttle more closely, I think the opposite is true.  Now, this doesn't mean that the Vikings will go 15-1 and go to the NFC Championship (or farther), but it does mean that they definitely have the potential to. 

 

But they still gotta play the games.

 

This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.

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Great Job

Both of these posts easily took you at least 45 minutes (combined) if not more.

Agree on everything except coaching. Becuase you forgot one of our coaches… Brett Favre. :D

Purple Haze is the worlds greatest Natural Resource.

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Nov 18, 2009 4:58 PM CST reply actions  

the glory days

“the 2009 line is the most impressive collection of defensive linemen since the Purple People Eaters.”

You young whippersnappers, you don’t remember the glory days.

In 1989, the Vikings had the following defensive linemen

Chris Doleman, 21.0 sacks
Keith Millard, 18.0 sacks
Al Noga, 11.5 sacks
Henry Thomas, 9.0 sacks

by medicineball on Nov 18, 2009 7:15 PM CST reply actions  

I stand corrected

That was a great line. Sorry about that oversight. I had moved out of the state and it was pre-DirecTV days, so they’re not in the forefront like the Purple People Eaters.

My bad.

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."

--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre

by Ted Glover on Nov 18, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes that was a good group no doubt

I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...

by vikingfanfrom afar on Nov 19, 2009 7:08 AM CST up reply actions  

+1 for the keith millard reference!

by iseepurplepeople on Nov 19, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

98 VS 09

The 98 team’s offense was great. You know the old saying the best defense is a good offense. I think that’s exactly what the 98 team was. Our defense was good but they had the luxury of a great offense. Playing with a lead & knowing that if you did make a mistake you had the weapons to get it right back. 15-1 was impressive by any standards. I think the 09 Vikes have a better balance & I think they could match that mark but I could care less about another loss or 2 as long as we play well come playoff time. I can see this team getting better & they haven’t played their best football yet & that’s scary. I know I sound like a homer but I really think this years team is the best team in football. I honestly think that our best is better than the Saints, Colts, Steelers & or anyone else’s best.

by iowaron on Nov 19, 2009 1:15 AM CST reply actions  

Reason Being...

Most Balanced:
             Great Offense Great Defense Great Special Teams Great Coaching
Min Y Y Y N
Ind Y Y N N (with Dungy gone)
New O Y N N Y
Pitt N Y Y Y

That, overall, puts Min and Pitt at a tie for the top – however, I think that a great offense will overwhelm the great coaching in the big game – Favre will have all his guns shooting…

by mjmrad on Nov 19, 2009 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry for the formatting

When I typed it in, it was all spaced out perfect…

by mjmrad on Nov 19, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the old addage

of the best defense is being a good offense only applies in war, but that’s just me. The 1998 team proved that not to be true in spades, as you said, and it cost the Vikings a SUper Bowl appearance.

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."

--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre

by Ted Glover on Nov 19, 2009 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Grat comparisons

I think I will give the nod to the "98 team. All teams in the NFL feared that offense and the defense had the luxury of teeing off on everybody. Both teams are great and I do think the "09 team can get better from now till Superbowl.
I will never forget saying 3/4 of the way through the ‘98 season- " This team is so good they can only play worse in the big game". I’m sorry for the curse. ’09 team can play even better in the Superbowl than you have seen so far.

by lifelongvike on Nov 19, 2009 6:48 AM CST reply actions  

Really enjoyed your two posts on this subject

It is always nice to compare the good teams we have had over the years, and the 98 and current teams are closest in so many ways….

The 60s, 70s, and 80s teams would not compare as evenly do not think, unless I am mistaken…which has happened once or twice (or more?) lol…

Thanks for the time and effort on this, something good to chew on as we move through this season, and await the next battle against Seabalks….

I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...

by vikingfanfrom afar on Nov 19, 2009 7:12 AM CST reply actions  

Thanks

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."

--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre

by Ted Glover on Nov 19, 2009 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I would have liked to...

A statistical comparison would be interesting. Individual player profiles don’t say much about how the unit performs. If my memory serves me, the 98 squad won by out scoring opponents in basically what were shootouts.

by LoveHate on Nov 19, 2009 10:57 AM CST reply actions  

I really thought about going that route,

but I think the statistical models to compare offense and defense (total yards gained or given up) is a fairly bogus statistic. Seems like quite the cop out, but these teams are two very different ones doing one thing in common—-winning. I think the 2009 team is the more complete team in how they win, but it’s hard to argue with the way the ’98 team got it done, at least until the NFC championship.

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."

--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre

by Ted Glover on Nov 19, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Coaching

I think I would have to give the nod to Chilly and co. I really think we should have handled the clock much better in 98. Instead of tearing down the field for quick scores if we had disciplilned ourselves I think we would have been an even better team and not had such a hard time in the play offs.

by Grime on Nov 19, 2009 11:06 AM CST reply actions  

this may or may not be true, but what everyone forgets about the 98 season is that yes we were 15-1 and set the record for most points in a season, but atlanta was 14-2 which is a VERY good record. there were some questionable decisions in that game i agree but that offense was built around the big play. changing the flow of the offense would have changed the entire identity of the team.

when it came down to it, the vikings did the conservative thing and didn’t go for the win. we settled for the field goal and anderson missed. that’s not the mindset of a winner. winners go for the jugular and put the opponent away.

by iseepurplepeople on Nov 19, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

We also

sat on the ball and killed (30sec??) while in not too bad of field position, just so we could go to the locker room with a lead. A push to get into field goal range and make it would have won the game. Made me want to puke. You can screw up in the lat 30 seconds of a half as much as the first 30 of the next half. We should have gone for the kill.

by CitrusFLViking on Nov 19, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

You are correct..

30 seconds with the most dangerous offense the NFL had ever seen. How many times did Moss pull out a 60 yard play? Hell you could throw to him and expect 30% of the time to get a pass interference call.

God I can’t believe how upset I still get about that game.

by Grime on Nov 19, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

ARGH!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!

Never has the ‘kneeldown’ been so agonizing…

I BELIEVE...

by ArizonaVikingsFan on Nov 20, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

It's too early in the season to make a fair comparison

If this ‘09 team can continue to get better through the rest of the season and into the playoffs, they’ll be better. If injuries or poor play cause serious setbacks, the best Viking team I’ve watched will remain the ’98 team. Even making this comparison is a real credit to the current roster.

by ChemErik on Nov 19, 2009 12:59 PM CST reply actions  

Great Post

But When did Chilly become a great coach .. is this not the same guy we were all crying about and begging to be fired last year .. Mr Kick Ass Offense .. Chilly’s offensive play calling is a joke .. Yes we have a 8-1 season right now .. but at least 3 games we won by luck .. Yes i know luck count too .. Chilly’s successful season is do to the talent and the need for revenge of Brett Farve who may be in his last season God forbid.. Has Chilly in the last couple of drafts even looked at a QB of the future .. NO.. Even if we win the superbowl this year and god knows we are overdue .. What happens when Brett retires do we hang our hopes and dreams once again on Tarvaris Jackson .. or Sage Rosenfels… I am not hating on the Vikings .. I bleed purple .. I cry purple .. and i will die purple .. All im saying is if we don’t win the superbowl this year .. And Chily Get his contract extention we will once again be crying in our beers and screaming Fire Brad Childress… SKOL

by VikinginCalifornia on Nov 19, 2009 1:30 PM CST reply actions  

apparently favre even made the towel boy better. he used to just carry 2 or 3 towels at a time, but since favre signed he’s been seen with as many as 6! man that favre does make everyone around him better.

by iseepurplepeople on Nov 19, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Only reason I stated he was better than Green

Was because I think Green was horrible at dealing with the D and didn’t play offense in a way that was the best for the ‘team’ he did play it the way it was best for the offense but that doesn’t always win games.

by Grime on Nov 19, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Dude!

Do you want the Chilly and the Vikes to lose, so that they end up in California?

The guy has certainly improved from the days when he asked Adrian Peterson to ‘return’ a kick by fielding it with exactly one foot in play, and one foot out. Remember that? Smarty McMustache had successfully found and unsuccessfully manipulated one of the most obscure rules in the book.

As for the vanilla play-calling, it’s worked, and he’s had no need to resort to trickery to win games this year. The only serious times we’ve been down at the end of the game were against San Francisco, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh. Favre’s two minute drill was well executed—and the finale featured the guy that replaced Bobby Wade, who was in retrospect a pretty good pickup. We nearly lost in Baltimore because our defense was deflated and confused at the loss of Antoine Winfield. The whole unit has improved their game, and will be even better with the return of the best all ’round corner in the league. We lost in PIttsburgh due to a bad call and a bad mental error by a savvy veteran. Shit happens.

Chilly’s been winning, and winning convincingly all season. Sure, some recent additions and maturations have helped immensely, and the Viking’s roster is shamefully pricey. But the struggles in places like Oakland, Detroit and Washington, despite plenty of money and opportunities to score talent, underscore the importance of a coherent vision from the owner’s box, to the front office, to the sideline. You can see Brad Childress’s furry little handprints all over it.

I think it’s the beard.

by virginia viking on Nov 20, 2009 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

+5 Million

This team IS Brad Childress’ vision.

I BELIEVE...

by ArizonaVikingsFan on Nov 20, 2009 8:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh Hell No

I am A Minnesota Viking Fan .. Thats M I N N E S O T A .. Yes i live in L.A but No way do i want to see the Vikings here with all these fake fans ..

by VikinginCalifornia on Nov 23, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

There is a reason that

The Raiders and The Rams left LA. I think everyone keeps on forgetting that one.

by TheEvilProfessor on Nov 23, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I NEVER forget that

But I’ll stick with the Vikings, no matter where they land. If they move and cease being the Vikings… I think I’ll take up WoW.

Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!

by DCPurple on Nov 23, 2009 8:12 PM CST up reply actions  

you should do that anyway. hurry before the mohawk grenades are gone!

by iseepurplepeople on Nov 24, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Nice comparisions

I’ve enjoyed reading both of these posts, AND the comments. Just seeing the old names brought up again brings back some great memories, thanks MCF :)

Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!

by DCPurple on Nov 20, 2009 8:47 AM CST reply actions  

And

one very bad one.

"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

by cryhavoc on Nov 20, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

More than one for me.....

At least 5-6 BIG ones for me…..

But (sigh) is like the kids…..

You don’t choose your family members….

You love them unconditionally…

As I do the Vikings….

Caveat: As long as they STAY in MN!

Which I think they will…

I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...

by vikingfanfrom afar on Nov 23, 2009 9:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Robert Griffith/2009 vs 98

Is one of the most under rated Vikings in team history. He had the intensity of a Mike Singletary. Madden often mentioned him or included him on All Madden teams if I recall.
What i like more about this team is the unselfish demeanor of the offense that goes well with this defense.
Favre did not disrupt this team he united it! This team knew what was needed to be among the elite and for all those who rag on Favre’s ego , all I ever see him do is go to everyone and pat them on the back and pump them up.
Sure they get excited over a sack, TD, fumble recovery, INT etc. These guys celebrate together. As close as the “40 for 60 Gang” as we have had.
I love Bud but maybe tempering the teams excitement may have not been such a great idea. Celebrate, bu tdo so by recognizing your peers and fans. I see the Fantastic Four recievers doing this, The Four Norseman and the Silent but Deadly trio of LB’s al supporting each other.
Special teams is uniting and taking pride again.
I’ll reverse the Platoon quote mimicked in Tropic Thunder – " I got a GOOOOOD feeling about this one boy’s" I just feel it building. Remember, i am an old fart and remember the previous 4 like a recording in my head. Just recently I realized I neve rhad this “Karma” floating inside me as I have recently. I didn’t have a real "for sure type of feeling with the 15-1 gang.
I don’t know why-I just see it coming and the Vikes getting stronger. We haven’t even peaked yet. Today we saw Chester really get into the program again.
PS
We must keep this team together at least one more year. I say grab another good young LB, If McCoy or Tebow fall late into the 1st early second round. I know Tebow will be a work in progress bu tfor a kid like Tim or Colt to spend one year with Brett-WOW! Grab one in that order. Then the best available guard or Tackle. One to replace an aging Mckinny and if we can get a beast at the left guard spot grab him. I like our guys ther but they are not super star but getting the job done. A beast to go along side Loadholt would keep that line strong for year.
PS-Did anyone notice that Birk went somewhere? Baltimore I think. Hats off to Sully. Talk about a kid stepping up fast!

Question- I heard there was a reason bu tdidn’t get it. Why are we putting T-Jax in every time we take Brett out. Why not Sage. Please don’t tell me Chilly stilll has hope in TJax after one late TD drive against Seattle???

by CitrusFLViking on Nov 29, 2009 9:13 PM CST reply actions  

Are you typing this in notepad or word, and then uploading it? It looks like there was some stray formatting that ran amok….

Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!

by DCPurple on Nov 30, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

All I want for Christmas is a computer that doesn’t have Windows ME

by CitrusFLViking on Dec 3, 2009 9:47 PM CST reply actions  

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