A Question for the Favre Haters Out There
by Gonzo on Nov 5, 2009 6:52 PM CST
in Vikings
49 comments
Not necessarily Viking fans that hate Favre, mind you. . .but more the fans of other teams that hate Favre, if they're out there and reading this.
Cliff Christl of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel wrote an article entitled "No Expense Spared by Team in Favre PR War." I can't link to the article here, as it's from a pay website. . .I don't pay for the site myself, mind you, but someone on a message board I frequent pointed it out. . .but I do want to point out this one little sentence from the article:
Don Hutson considered retirement and reported to camp late in 1939, and he then announced his retirement before the 1943, '44 and '45 seasons, only to play again. Forrest Gregg retired and unretired four times during his career.
Hmmmmmm. . .one has to wonder if the level of poutrage was as great from the other side of the river back in those days as it is today with #4. Hell, Favre still has one more retirement to go before he catches Hutson, and two more to go before he catches Forrest Gregg. (Although Gregg did sort of make it up to us by going to the Packers and being a really, really crappy head coach.)
Before people whine about the Brett Favre "will he or won't he" thing or whether or not he "betrayed" the Packers or whatever other WHARRGARBL the Wisconsin media wants to shovel our way this week, they should take a minute or two to educate themselves on the past. Just saying is all.
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Why this article is so good
You know why this article is so good? Because it’s right. Go Vikings! Go Favre!
by IndiaSummer on Nov 5, 2009 7:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
what is the actual content of the article
would love to read it…..is it more along the lines that the Packers mgmt. hired Ari Fleisher’s PR firm to discredit Favre…that must have cost a good deal…do they quantify the amount of money they spent on character assasination? (e.g.accusing FAvre of using Packers cell phone to call Childress….LIE)…I’m sure they planted lots of nasty posts on forums, newspapers, TV etc.
shoot they probably could have gotten a couple damn good offensive linemen for what they spent….but of course they didn’t really care about the team….the anti-Favre PR was to save their own asses…and sure enough right after all that Ted Thompson (and that creepy Murphy guy too maybe) got 5 year extensions on their contracts…yeah, 5 year extensions the winter after Favre took them to playoffs and went 13-3 in reg season.
by lorenzo4 on Nov 5, 2009 7:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Link to article
Here is the article. I can view it but I guess other people can’t see it.
by medicineball on Nov 5, 2009 7:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Here's how you read it
1. Click on medicineball’s link. You will get a new window opened that says “Packer Insider Login.” Close this Window.
2. Go to file menu (in firefox anyway) and click “work offline”
3. Now click on medicinebll’s link again. This time you will see sotry instead of login.
This is a trick I’ve been using successfully for a long time. JSOnline should pay more for their web development if they want to hid e their premium content ;)
Basically, the article details how it came about that the Packers hired Ari Fleischer to do a character assaination hit on Brett Favre all the way back in May 2008 as a pre-emptive strike. as teh article states, “the decision was made as panic spread through the top of the organization over concern that the Favre matter could be devastating to the franchise’s brand name.”
It’s about FREAKIN TIME that journalists start coming out with the real scoop. The Ari Fleischer hiring smelled BAD from day one, but it’s take over a year for someone to look into it?!
by puddnhead on Nov 6, 2009 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why This Article is not so good
Where is the question? Dude, if thats going to be your title, at least ask a question.
Packer Fans are not “poutraged” because he waffled on his retirement. We’re angry because he has been planning and scheming to get to Minnesota for years. And when he got there we turned on him. We’re supposed to cheer for him as a Viking? Come on.
Gonzo, did Hutson and Gregg “retire” and un-retire so that they could play for Minnesota? No. Your comparison is utterly pointless.
Now in all seriousness… Packer, Favre and Viking fans alike should all read a couple articles about the Favre saga written by Andrew Brandt at the National Football Post. It’s
probably the most level headed account of what happened. It’s probably Ted Thompson’s fault, but there is no doubt that Favre wanted out after he felt he wasn’t being catered to by Thompson.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-difficult-parting-of-Favre-and-the-Packers.html
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Brett-and-the-broadcast-guys.html
by OffBrandWisconsin on Nov 5, 2009 7:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If you've been reading Brandt since the inception of NFB as I have
You should know that he has a definite bias, particularly towards Rodgers. To his credit, he even admits it.
by puddnhead on Nov 6, 2009 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
You’re suggesting that after leading the Pack to a 13-3 record and an overtime conference championship loss (by 3) that Favre didn’t want to return to the Pack to build on the previous years success, but rather his attempted comeback was designed to get him to MN via NY?
That is absurd. Not sure what stage denial is. Favre should have been welcomed as a Packer as long as he wanted to be one. If you support the Packers decision to purge him, then you can’t be upset with where he lands, even if it is a division opponent.
by LoveHate on Nov 6, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's even more absurd
If you consider that the 3 point loss in the 2007 NFC Championship had less to do with Favre than it did with GB’s complete failure to generate a running game. NY ran for 125 or so yards and controlled the ball throughout the second half. Ahmad Bradshaw ran wild. It’s pretty embarrassing when he owns your defense in your backyard in the conference championship. The only reason the game went into OT was because NY missed a chip shot FG at the end of regulation.
by Belarus on Nov 7, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Take it with a grain of salt
As a Packer fan myself, I was annoyed with Favre’s indecision but moreso with the organization and the media (specifically FOX) for over-blowing the story EVERY SINGLE YEAR. I have watched Favre since DAY 1. I can not recall any interview during which Favre brought up retirement. It was always a reporter asking the (stupid) question.
The man is simply indecisive with matters outside of football. Get over it.
More power to him that he can still play at this level at 40. Yeah- it totally sucks that he beats us down, but DEAL WITH IT. I would rather lose to Favre than to any other Viking QB in history.
When it’s all said and done, with Favre hopefully winning another ring, we’ll all know that the Vikes could do it ONLY with our QB at their helm. :)
by KennyZ on Nov 6, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude :)
You see… Favre used to be your QB. Something involving a green uniform, I think.
But it’s 2009, and now, Favre is*our* QB now. Ours. Which, by definition, means… not yours.
:)
I wonder if there’s any more Packer players that would rather wear purple, we seem to collect a fair number of them over the years. Once Rodgers is up to speed, and Favre decides to hang up the cleats, you’d better make sure he’s locked down hard :)
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
by DCPurple on Nov 6, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny
I don’t think he considers himself “your” QB anymore. Heck you renamed his street before he came into town and the man needed bodyguards.
by PurpleJesus on Nov 7, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fox Sports article
This is a great article just ripping Ted Thompson a new one.
Notbale quotes:
“Twenty-four regular-season games into Favre’s removal as Green Bay’s starting quarterback, Ted Thompson looks every bit as stupid as Peter Pocklington, the man who traded Wayne Gretzky to Los Angeles”
“Brett Favre wanted out of Green Bay because he believes Ted Thompson is a moron”
“Short of winning the Super Bowl, there’s not a damn thing the Packers can do to mask Thompson’s incompetence.”
“That’s right. Halfway through the season Favre is the clear-cut MVP. It ain’t even close. Right now Favre is sportsman of the year. That’s not hyperbole.”
“a buffoon like Ted Thompson can hold his head high while earning millions of dollars ruining the Green Bay Packers.”
“If Favre’s second-half play matches what he’s delivered through eight games and the Vikings win the Super Bowl, he will have elevated himself to Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan and Jim Brown status.”
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/10325372/It’s-the-Truth:-Favre’s-proving-Thompson-wrong
by dsludo on Nov 5, 2009 8:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
+4
I am so glad that you threw out another WHARRGARBL. I’ve been waiting since that nice piece you wrote about or friends over in Chicago.
by Figgs on Nov 5, 2009 8:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
LOL
absolutely LOVE the WHARRGARBL. every time i say it, my buddy just laughs and laughs.
I piss people off on a fairly regular basis. I cherish my right to speak my mind, whether I sound like an uneducated savage or not. I've never been accused of keeping what I think a secret, nor will I ever. Don't like it? I don't care.
by IABerserker1 on Nov 6, 2009 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Favre/Message to GB fans ( and Figgs)
Was given a choice. Retire and take our severence package, but then how will the fans react to us sitting their hero down. So don’t blame Brett GB fans. You have a great QB in Rodgers but the management that he made look good for so long was asking him to do something he didn’t want. Brett was smart enough to want to go where he was familiar with a system and coaches. He didn’t want to be shipped to NY. It wasn’t his style to be in the big city lights.
Stay proud of him. This wasn’t betrayal as much as it was comfort. Sure it hurts. It hurts me to see Sharper doing so well in NO bu twe let him go in favor of youth. It may haunt us down the line. I hope not. Just how it is. If he give us both happy nemories and a title can we compain?
Figgs-Never mind the grammer police. The gang has been good with my typos and lack of proof reads. I’ll police the grammer police. If people can’t ge tthe message and recognize human error and let it go, then I have no time for them.
Go Vikings! And to all a Happy Turkey Month.
by CitrusFLViking on Nov 5, 2009 8:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why they are soo mad at favre
“Was given a choice. Retire and take our severence package, but then how will the fans react to us sitting their hero down. So don’t blame Brett GB fans. You have a great QB in Rodgers but the management that he made look good for so long was asking him to do something he didn’t want. Brett was smart enough to want to go where he was familiar with a system and coaches. He didn’t want to be shipped to NY. It wasn’t his style to be in the big city lights.
Stay proud of him. This wasn’t betrayal as much as it was comfort. Sure it hurts. It hurts me to see Sharper doing so well in NO bu twe let him go in favor of youth. It may haunt us down the line. I hope not. Just how it is. If he give us both happy nemories and a title can we compain?
Figgs-Never mind the grammer police. The gang has been good with my typos and lack of proof reads. I’ll police the grammer police. If people can’t ge tthe message and recognize human error and let it go, then I have no time for them.”
It is a little unfair for everybody to be brett haters and sudden doubters of Aaron rodgers. Rodgers started off doing great and still is but its easy to look the other way when a great like favre is having a great season with your top rival. I was reading a pretty cool article on this the other day over at: cooper’s sports picks and the fact that the Vikings went in to Green bay and beat them rather badly twice this season is going to scorn and really sting all long time pack fans imho.
by SportsHandicapper on Nov 5, 2009 9:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If Ari Fleisher's PR firm was hired to discredit BF.....
then the league should get rid of Ted Thompson. There’s no way anybody in mgmt. in the NFL should be allowed to slander, spread lies, etc. about any player.
by MissButterfly on Nov 5, 2009 9:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No, no, don't get rid of Thompson
I hope he stays around for a long, long time. As long as having “the youngest team in the NFL” is more important to him than bothering to develop actual talent, the Packers won’t actually be any good for a while.
Unless, of course, Favre goes back to Green Bay and makes Mike McCarthy look like a real NFL head coach again.
The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!
by Gonzo on Nov 5, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I love what Favre is doing this year but...
If he were the Packs QB with that shitty o-line, they wouldn’t be any better off. Here is one for ya, what if Aaron Rodgers were the Vikes starting QB? I don’t think the Vikes would be worse off. I mean Rodgers has been sacked the most in the league and has only thrown 2INTS to 14TDs. The guy has poise and I can see why the Pack wanted to invest in their future rather than let and old guy toy with them for a year or two and lose Rodgers for the future.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
by VikesPma on Nov 6, 2009 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't disagree more
If Favre was the qb of the Packers they’d be a lock for the playoffs.
when are people going to realize that the reason he has so few interceptions is that because if he is unsure whether or not a pass will be completed he takes a sack, rather than trusting his arm sometimes and giving receivers a chance to make a play, he plays like he’s afraid to throw a pick, playing not to lose instead of playing to win. You can blame it on the O-Line, and they do deserve some blame. But I choose to blame Rodgers.
by dsludo on Nov 6, 2009 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When I say “he has so few interceptions” talking about aaron rodgers.
by dsludo on Nov 6, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Favre does get rid of the ball a bit quicker, but Green Bays o-line and running game are crap.
Its just as much the threats around Favre as his play itself that result in his fewest INTS through 8 games.
Guys are going unblocked at the line for Green Bay and about half the sacks are the result of that. The Green Bay (injury depleted)o-line is among the five worst in the league and that always effects a QB.
I’d rather have Favre right now sure and I can’t stand the Pack, but the sacks are more him not getting time than him holding the ball too long.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
by VikesPma on Nov 8, 2009 12:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't say things like that
It scares me… Ted Thompson has to go. So does Mark Murphy and Mike McCarthy.
Favre back with the Pack is nice in theory, however, that o-line is terrible. Thompson has done a fine job of ruining a good team. At least Favre would get rid of the ball faster than Rodgers.
We’ll just have to fire TT, and then Favre can come back to Green Bay and all will be right once again with the world. As we all know, Favre will play for another 37.9 years. We will graciously let you win one SB this year. But the next 20 are ours. I like this fantasy world where sun is always shining and the air smells like warm root beer.
by starmark on Nov 6, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha!
I Like your world, except for the Favre/Packers thing, of course.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 6, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Um…because it’s happened before, it’d okay? How can we be such hypocrites? Now that he’s on our team and he’s an MVP candidate, we love him. And that’s okay.
BUT.. We hated him just as much as anyone before he came to Minnesota. So I don’t blame other fans for being tired of him. It’s annoying. The un-retiring thing is maddening.
by PurplePeopleEaters on Nov 6, 2009 3:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
This may cause serious backlash but I dont care
I never hated Brett Favre when he played for the other team. I only hated playing him twice a year.
John Madden’s man-love for him was a little annoying too, but I always respected the way Brett played.
"We Szekelys have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-Bram Stoker
by NMVike on Nov 6, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I Don't Understand Why This is Such a Big Deal
And I don’t understand how anybody could actually hate a football player. I’m the biggest dog lover you’ll ever find, but I don’t hate Michael Vick – I don’t watch the Eagles unless they play the Saints or the Vikings, but when that happens, I just sort of emotionally ignore him.
If retiring and unretiring bothers you, if you hate a player that much, turn off the TV or radio and do something else.
The Green bay booers have no idea what went on between BF and GB management – they need to get a life.
by MissButterfly on Nov 6, 2009 9:06 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I hate Michael Vick
He’s creepy.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 6, 2009 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If a tree falls in the forrest and no one is there to hear it fall...
Favre -aplooza! Favregeddon! Favreganza!
With a 24 hour sports media cycle,, you simply get just too much of it. It’s great to get the info, but most outlets, especially those with far reach over do it. You simply tire of every news story at some point.
Seriously, today on FIrst Take they’re asking whether or not TO has ‘cast a shadow’ as a way to explain Roy Williams recent stupidity. The horse is partialy decompossed already.
by LoveHate on Nov 6, 2009 9:44 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Favre-aplooza!
Indeed. Note to Ted Thompson. Don’t F**ck with an icon, a living legend, a rock star. It’s waaaay bigger than you. It will all fall down and crush you…ESPECIALLY if you engage in unsportsmanlike conduct…now the icon looks like the White Knight vs. the Albino Rasputin.
So just when are we gonna see this A-hole shown the door?
High drama. Can’t get enough of it…especially when the good guy wins
by lorenzo4 on Nov 6, 2009 11:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Packers and Favre
Ok let me start out by saying iam a packer fan have been for 33years. But in that time i have become a Favre fan. Anyone one here remember the magic man or peterson? I do. Favre changed the stage for QB’S. I have turned my back on Arron i like the taste of the field Rodgers and T.T. and M.M.. For the simple fact that we have not heard the hole story of the why he truely retired. Its no secret that T.T. and M.M. have had wanted Favre out of greenbay for a while. They are the ones that need to go. Now that Farve is playing for the Vikings and has a defence and and offense i hope they crush the packers and take any chance for them to get a wild card spot. So viking fans enjoy the ledgend with the talent thats surrounds him while he is there.
by chefsky2001 on Nov 6, 2009 12:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Those guys are from the 1940s. Nobody knows who the hell they are so its a terrible comparison.
I love the way Favre has played this season and so too the Vikes in general. I however realized Favre dangled with the Packer franchise and after he retired they gave him many chances to come back and when they finally had to move on and prepare for the upcoming season with Rodgers. Only once its stated that they are accepting Rodgers as the starter did he want to play again, months after they had planned the offence around Rodgers.
Ted T. did pressure Favre to make a decision because he had waivered back and forth the two previous years and they were getting sick of it. Favre held the will I won’t I for 3 years over the Packers so I can see why they were getting sick of it. No player no matter how great should be able to toy with a franchise like that and no player is bigger than a franchise.
Yes people are allowed to change their minds, but Favre did it to the point of exhaustion and the Pack could take it no more.
I can’t stand the Packers. I hate them(rivaly hate), but the day they quit letting Favre toy with them I had to give them a little respect.
The Pack wouldn’t be any better off with him. If they can’t keep a young mobile Rodgers from getting sacked than I don’t think Favre would be standing much either.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
by VikesPma on Nov 6, 2009 2:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's
Packer precedent. Time means nothing when guys from that era bomb Favre with their loyaty crap and Pack fans buy it hook line and sinker to the point they assasinate Favre with boos when he enters the stadium. BTW – I think you are out of your mind saying they gave him many chances. Actually, I know you are. TTand MM have never denied what Favre said about the time after the ’07 season when it was them who changed their standard operating procedure.
TT and MM dangled Rodgers over Favre’s head for 3 years. They made known what they wanted with their 1st draft pick. Wake up from the Pack media koolaid. The problem is that TT and MM saw Favre a leftover from the Wolfe/Holmgren era – they’d never get out of his shadow til he was gone – I’m glad they got their wish. You should be, too.
by jshep on Nov 6, 2009 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am glad the Vikes have Favre, but it was Favre that started all the retirment talk and was only asked by Green Bay to make a decision b/c 3 years of wavering drained them.
I do believe Rodgers could have left in the next year or two as a free agent so give up a petential franchise QB for a Great that wants to stick around a year longer but not give you a decision til the last moment.
If Favre said I’ll play til my health(body) tells me to stop and don’t wanna play anywhere but in Green Bay TT and MM probably would have changed their stance. Its speculation though none of us were flies on the wall when they talked so…
Yes who cares, the Vikes are 7-1, relativly healthy(common Winfield) and getting better.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
by VikesPma on Nov 8, 2009 12:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
puddnhead....help!
DYING to read that article. Tried your work around (numerous times) to read it on jsonline in Firefox…but no dice….log in still came up.
do you know if bypass is still working and even if the article is still accessible?
by lorenzo4 on Nov 6, 2009 2:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
puddnhead
Just copy and paste it into DN. We can’t access it.
by PurpleJesus on Nov 7, 2009 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been reluctant to do that
because I don’t want to get site in trouble for copyright. But I searched and found someone else did it, I think this is full article:
by puddnhead on Nov 8, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
found the article by Christl
just google “no expense spared by team in Favre PR war” and it’s been posted in its entirety (I assume) on a forum that’s listed in search results.
It’s worth the effort. Money. Fame. Court Intrigue.Lies. Deception. Tears. Character Assasination. High stakes chess game. Wow.
The more I learn the more I want to know what went on behind closed doors. I spent hours on the blogs while all of this was going on….and call me a conspiracy theory nut, but I’d almost guarantee you that the Fleischer crew was infiltrating alot of them with barrages of comments….diva, prima donna, let us down talking points.
by lorenzo4 on Nov 6, 2009 3:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You know...
… some Packer fans may need therapy over this whole deal. But I really can’t believe there’s an article on the DN about Favre’s departure from GB a week after the 2nd game with the Packers when the Vikings are 7-1 and look like one of the best teams in the NFC. Quite frankly, if you’re a Viking fan, and you’re still thinking about the Packers and their fans under those circumstances, you should take some time to reconsider your priorities as a Viking fan. I understand why guys like puddnhead still find this stuff fascinating, and I get why a Packer fan like myself is still thinking about the Vikings, but if I were a Viking fan like the author and most of you are (instead of a bitter Favre fan who started rooting for the Vikings 3 months ago) I’d have little to no thought in my head about anything related to the Packers right now.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Nov 7, 2009 1:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
In a normal kind of situation, you make an excellent point about having no thoughts about the Packers. But this storyline is so intriguing. Plus its our bye week. So, just killing time….until next week rolls around. At that point we’re going to focus all of our energy on the fearless lions.
by dsludo on Nov 7, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where would you expect to find such an article
As dsludo said, we are on a bye week.
Besides, Packer fans kept lecturing all season to this point what a mistake this move was. Even doing so after the first Packer loss. Unreal how they came back to make it sound like winning the second game would prove it was still a mistake and somehow erase the first loss…. Now, after two Viking wins and taking all the cr@p, we aren;t allowed to throw confetti in celebration on our own site? If you don’t want to read something like this don’t look over here.
by PurpleJesus on Nov 7, 2009 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh friggin please
This is funny, here we are getting chastised for talking about Favre from some ACME folks who are obviously beyond fixated with him, being told we should get over it when said certain types keep rehashing it over and over not only here like the true trolls they are, but in their own board. If you say there are better things to do with our time, put your money where your mouth is instead of spewing that crap here. But then again, you are the minority, Raiders like, fan that will take an argument, whether or not started by you, make a worthless point, then turn around and make yourself a hypocrite just so you think you look good and think you saved face. Leave the postings to a Packers fan that has something meaningful to contribute, not some whine to go with your cheese.
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 7, 2009 10:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you are responding to Ted Simmons
Since I am not an ACME folk.
by PurpleJesus on Nov 7, 2009 10:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
yeah, sorry
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
by VikesFaninNM on Nov 7, 2009 11:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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