To all Chilly Haters
by dkerfoot on Dec 14, 2009 10:45 AM CST
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I told you so.
I wanted to remind you of how wrong you were. Whatever else you may think you know about football, you obviously don't know anything about what makes for a good coach. You would have thrown Bud Grant under the bus too.
A coach adds two additional wins each of his first three years and you call for him to be fired? Sad and wrong...
I am writing this now, because no bad coach has ever built a bad team up to an 11-2 start. It doesn't matter if they melt down in the playoffs or the SB or even if they finally win it all. Chilly has taken a losing, demoralized team and built it into a well respected, balanced team with both swagger AND level heads. And yeah, a kick-ass offense. And defense. And special teams. (Well that may be going to far, but wait until next year!)
So, the next time you find yourself ready to go into a negative tailspin, please think back to the way you were calling for Chilly's head on a platter and remember: You were obviously dead wrong before and maybe, just maybe, you still don't know what you are talking about.
Thank you for your attention to this important matter.
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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You tell those silly people on the ineterwebs.
by Jepp The Viking on Dec 14, 2009 11:40 AM CST reply actions
Yeah!
on the interweb, too!!
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Dec 14, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
Had to look that word up
Never heard of “interweb” before, lol. Guess I don’t read enough satire :)
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Quick rundown
Mike Tice career record as head coach (excluding the one game in which he was interim head coach and there was no chance of winning anyway)
2002: 6-10
2003: 9-7
2004: 8-8 (Wild Card. Playoffs: 1-1)
2005: 9-7
Brad Childress career record as head coach
2006: 6-10
2007: 8-8
2008: 10-6 (Division Championship. Playoffs: 0-1)
2009: 11-2 (through Week 14)
If you had to choose one of these to be your career record, which would you choose?
easily the latter
"We Szekelys have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-Bram Stoker
Chilly's career path, hands down
The top one is year after year of mediocrity. The bottom is a definite upward trend.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
That's a four syllable word
and hence not allowed on blogs. Five syllable words like mediocrity are, but not four syllable words. :)
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
What does "syllable" mean?
I hate it when these big words are used in conversations!
GO VIKINGS!
Hey where has R4F been lately? Do you think he has a job or something?
Ooooof….
; )
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Dec 15, 2009 6:06 AM CST up reply actions
Tice
I would choose to improve in year 1, be a winner by year 2, win a playoff game in year 3, and still be a winner and…wait…what kind of moron advocates firing a coach who has achieved this much at this point?
Incredible
I don’t understand how people cannot see the difference. How many players from the 2005 team are starters in the NFL right now? On the Vikings currently, EJ Henderson, P Williams, Winfield, K Williams, McKinnie, Herrera, Farwell (special teams ace), Kleinsasser, Loeffler, and Kluwe. Only 10 players, but all of them are starters, on offense, defense, or special teams. Starters on other teams: Burleson and Sharper.
Considering that the Vikings have almost completely turned over since that recent date, things are going really, really well.
by medicineball on Dec 14, 2009 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
How many players from the 2005 team are starters in the NFL right now?
yeah, and yet, look what tice did with them? that’s a good coach in my opinion. imagine what he could have done with all the money wilf has been throwing around?
tice’s only real flaw was discipline. he was too much of a players coach. remember when he could out in pads for practice? that was funny.
by iseepurplepeople on Dec 15, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
4 years is the average career in the NFL!
The first problem is that you are being unreasonable, including your expectation that the entire 2005 to have been 21-23 years of age. The other is that you are simply wrong.
There are quite a few starters still in the league since 2005: Matt Birk, Darren Sharper, Randy Moss, Brian Williams (I wish the Vikings had kept him), Fred Smoot plus the many starters still on the team (McKinnie, Winfield, K. Williams, P. Williams, EJ) and a few who have since started for other teams and retired like Corey Chavous and Chris Liewinski. That’s half a football team in terms of starters!
The same convoluted non-logic would apply to these players from 2007: TJ, Holcomb, Chester Taylor, Bobby Wade, Dwight Smith, Robert Ferguson, and Ryan F. Cook. Perhaps Tony Richardson belongs on that list, too, although he could have had such limited PT because of injury for all I know.
And as iseepurple pointed out, it still shows that Tice did not have as much to work with as Childress, who went shopping for premium talent, hand-picked a bunch of losers and threw them against the proverbial wall, and few have stuck.
wow kc!
you validated your point with one of mine. i thought i’d never see the day.
there’s hope for you yet ;)
(i AM kidding, i like our debates)
by iseepurplepeople on Dec 18, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
So far I have hated Chilly twice this year...
coincidentally, I hated lotsa other people right about the same times.
whatever
when he wins a game based on game management and adjustments alone and/or out coaches a playoff caliber coach i might listen to this.
until then i’ll reiterate my own stance:
brad childress is the second coming of marty schottenheimer
by iseepurplepeople on Dec 14, 2009 12:28 PM CST reply actions
Probably too early
I can’t really even call Chilly that yet. He hasn’t been a head coach long enough to know what he is.
But he has the benefit of an owner willing to spend over the cap to bring in top talent and we’ve done well on draft day, so he’s got that going for him. But I’d say Brett Favre is coaching this team as much as Chilly is right now from everything I’ve read and heard.
The sad thing about the fanpost is the writer is going after the “Chili Haters” for wanting him fired when we were losing and now he’s willing to defend Childress when the team is winning, but he makes no effort to explain why Childress is a good coach beyond generalities and win/lose record.
It’s like saying Trent Dilfer is the greatest quarterback of all time because people said he sucked and then he won a Super Bowl.
A good coach makes his team better, he doesn’t wait for a better team to make him look good.
We're still discussing this?
Seriously, I haven’t heard any serious Chilly bashing since somewhere around week 2 or 3. He’s made his mistakes, but he appears to be learning from them.
i haven’t had much time for blogging…sorry.
by iseepurplepeople on Dec 14, 2009 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
The first time head coach...
Is doing a stand up job. Whether he is to be recognized as a good or great coach in the future, it has to be settled that he is not a bad coach and clearly not the “horrible” coach so many Norsemen have labelled him over the past couple of seasons.
You point to the team he inherited and what he has built. I remember after Childress’ second season there was a Norseman who would simply post the Vikings record under Tice in his final year versus Childress’ record as his argument: 9-7 (Tice), 6-10, 8-8; as if this pointed to anything in and of itself. He lost more games, he was a worse coach. Nevermind the introduction of a new (and complex) offensive system, the roster overhaul or the culture change instituted by the Wilfs. It was baffling.
You still get the occasional Chilly bash, which is fine. He is far from a finished product at this point in his career. He will continue to get better both in-game and out. At this point you would have to admit that his strengths are more of an asset than his weaknesses are a liability. Playoff success will bolster this argument.
Yay Chilly bashing!
Put me in coach I’m good at this!!
Ok where’s my QB? Oh wait Brett Favre that was the plan all along!
Hrm how do we do a 2 minute offense? Oh, let BF do it that’s the plan!
Nah, I don’t have the same hate for Chilly I did at the beginning of the season. (really hate was a strong word even then) but I still don’t think he’s proven himself as the head coach I want the Vikes to have. However, he has proven that he deserves a chance.
I’m not interested in a good coach for the Vikes, I want a great coach. One that in the future will be talked about in the same sentences as Cowher, Parcells, Jimmy Johnson and yes Bellicheck.
hmmmm....
Cowher = Super Bowl winner
Parcells = Super Bowl winner
JJ = Super Bowl winner
BB = Super Bowl winner
I sense a theme.
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Dec 14, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
I thought you might...
Denny Green was a good coach but he wasn’t great I’ve seen a lot of good coaches in the NFL. I want a great one for Minnesota.
Consider the Giants
Should the Giants have fired Coughlin back in ’07 because he had never won a Super Bowl?
Well…. they didn’t, and now he has.
by medicineball on Dec 14, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions
It's a tough choice.
Notice his name wasn’t on the list.
Now Cowher was on the list and he has the same issue seven years before a ring hit him. It’s a tough call, I want Chilly to suceed for sure. I’m willing to give him rope, and I applaud what he has done with the team so far (personel wise he’s a genius even if all he does is stay out of the people who make the choices way).
However, I would like to see a QB. That was one thing he promised us from day one that he really hasn’t even come close to delivering.
true...
the elite QBs will come to a winning program…
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Dec 14, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
You remember that it took Cowher 15 years to get a ring, right?
"We Szekelys have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-Bram Stoker
How many coaches have won SB's with different teams?
The answer is: none.
Not saying that those guys couldn’t do it, but the overwhelming evidence says you can’t win SB’s in more than one location.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Some have been to SBs with 2 different teams
Off the top of my head: Vermeil, Parcells, Reeves and almost Tony Dungy and/or Jon Gruden. There could be more.
Yeah, but they never won
Would you want Shanahan or Cowher to take the Vikes to a SB and lose?
I’d rather fight a fight woman over the last rib at a buffet.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
I would rather go to the SB
than another uninspiring 1-and-done. But that’s just me.
I believe that either of those coaches would do a better job, especially Cowher.
Have you lived through a Vikes SB loss as it happened?
Worse feeling ever. I honestly would prefer that the Vikes never go to the SB again than go and lose, but that’s just me.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Been there, Done that. Got No Tee-Shirt
And it sucks. But it’s not the worst feeling ever… At least we were there, we were the NFC Champions.
It sucks a lot worse to lose in the playoffs. And worse than that, to not make the playoffs at all.
It definitely hurts much, much more, to be utterly irrelevant.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
LOL
Degrees of sucktitude or “How BAD can it get?”
We have seen ALL levels over the years…
Thankfully seldom that worst level – irrelevency….
That is the one that REALLY sucks/is painful!
Time for change….yes we can (repeat after me…repeatedly…)
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Dec 16, 2009 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
I remember three SB losses
But if you think that is the worst feeling ever, you have obviously never passed a kidney stone or learned a loved one is dying/has died.
I have loved the vikings for nearly 40 years, but it is just football. Something people seem to forget is that whether a team wins or loses, says nothing about you. If my Vikings win the Super Bowl, I will not be a better man for it.
Sure you will!
You’ll smile more, people will want to hand around you because your a winner! Large amounts of money will simply fal linto your life while scantily clad women will fall into your lap!
Seriously, that is what happens when the Vikes win the Super Bowl.
It's true! It's true!
Especially the part about scantily clad women! :))
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
And the Vikings won the NFL Championship while we were in transition
But not many remember that…
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
More than anything
It’s not about the location, but a SB winning coach is rarely canned or likely to retire too early from the 1st location with enough time to last another decade in another location.
The differences between Childress and those guys
is that they were right about their QB decisions without FA HoFers, with the possible exception of Cowher during the Kordell Stewart years (but he had at least taken the Steelers to the SB with the existing talent that had gone 7-9 in 1991 to 11-5 in 1992, his first year with the team).
Also, none of them inherited a roster which had won the year before and transformed it into a loser (JJ’s stint in MIA transformed a 9-7 team into an 8-8 team…and then 3 winning/playoff seasons which included playoff wins in years 3 and 4…his Cowboys had won a playoff game by year 3, despite starting from 1-15).
Pretty much all of them were comfortable dealing with high risk/high reward players, and Childress is not.
Childress will have to coach a SB winner and prove that he can win without Favre before I mention him in the same sentence as those coaches.
I think you nailed it
My beef with Chilly was that he took a 9-7 team and made them a 6-10 team his first year. He upgraded the roster, had the coaching staff size and personnel he wanted, and had a pretty good draft. Then he went 6-10. WTF???
He’s gotten better, and I don’t know that Tice would’ve ever had the personnel or the ability to get the Vikes in the position they’re in today, but that’s another argument.
Now that Chilly’s vision is starting to unfold, people are more willing to give him a break, but it’s come two years behind schedule and with a QB that was villified in VikingLand for 16 years.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Also
Some have forgotten about that first year of 6-10. The author of this post is basically saying that a hot start = HoF for Brad Childress! But in 2006, the Vikings had started out 4-2…and went 2-8 the rest of the way. Of course some of us are nervous about celebrating a good start!
Solid point
but that 2006 team isn’t this team, which isn’t the 2003 team that started out 6-0 and missed the playoffs.
This team is different. They don’t rattle easy, they match up well with everyone, and I honestly expect, after 13 games, that they are the betterteam than anyone they will face, NO and Indy included.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
One other thing, sorry
I agree that Chilly would not go after the high risk/high reward guy, but I think that’s loosened up with the drafting of AP (shoulder issue, and he had Chester Taylor coming off a 1,200 yd season) and Percy Harvin. Solid point on that, but I think he’s changing.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
One last, final thing, lol
And was no one more risk/reward than Favre coming into this year? Yes, it was a pure desperation move that he created because of the TJ situation, but you can’t deny that it wasn’t risk/reward.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
I don't think of injuries as high risk
Injuries happen no matter what. To me, there was nothing risky about a certain HoF QB who also happened to have the iron man streak as far as injuries went. He was better playing injured at the end of last season than JaMarcus Russell was when he was healthy!
I think the rest of the org pushed really hard for Harvin and Childress couldn’t find that slightest whiff of a reason to not draft him, so [sigh] he agreed to draft Harvin. And I’m totally with you on hoping that it’s the beginning of some real change in his philosophy.
I think that is a definite consideration
Because whether a guy gets hurt or can’t get it done on the field, the end result is still the same: failure.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Right
I don’t think there are any HCs who make that sort of gamble very often, but there are several guys lableled “injury prone” in every draft who go on to be healthy for one or more very productive and helpful seasons. I think the scouting report on MauJo was skeptical about his ability to stay healthy, for one example.
24-24
Chilly’s record at the beginning of the season.
I never said “Fire Chilly”, because I think it take’s 3-4 years to build a playoff caliber team. However, I think it’s NFC Championship game or bust for Childress, and he better not lose because of poor coaching.
I also don’t give Chilly all the credit for this years success. I think Chilly is damn lucky Favre said yes, otherwise I think the Vikes would probably be 9-4ish like everybody else.
IMO, I think the Wilffs should have waited until Childress won a playoff game before giving him an extension. If Chilly loses in the 1st round, I think the Vikes will have troubles with season ticket holders next year.
The proof is in the playoffs
Chilly can very easily prove me wrong about him in the playoffs. It takes some game planning to beat high quality teams. But he can very easily prove me right about him too if we show up the way we did against the Cardinals… er… didn’t show up against the Cardinals.
It’s hard to say how good a coach Childress is or isn’t this season because we have an embarrassment of riches on the offensive side of the ball. He gets some credit for putting that together, but he still needs to put that talent in positions to win tough games down the stretch.
I’d love to be wrong about him. I hope he’s the second coming of Vince Lombardi—west of the St. Croix. We’ll find out in January.
A good coach makes his team better, he doesn’t wait for a better team to make him look good.
0-27
Childress’s record in which the other team scores more points.
by medicineball on Dec 14, 2009 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
and 35-0 when
his teams outscores the other.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Chilly is a good name.
It’s going to get real Chilly if we don’t get at least to the NFC championship game. He has done a good job assembling this team. Game management is where he will need to prove himself. Losing to a better team is not a crime. The Cardinals game was a butt kicking.
We did not adjust well. If we would have come out the second half and made a game of it i can live with that if we lose. The problem was the second half was the same as the 1st.
Our staff has to have answers when things don’t go our way. If we go down lets going down because the other team is better not because we can’t figure out what to do next. I have a hard time believing that any team in this league is superior to us in talent. A proper game plan & the ability to adjust on the fly will be the difference between winning the SB or watching it on T.V.
I say if Favre doesn't wanna play anymore...
we had over the entire operation to him? I like him a lot =)
...add #4 to the mix and see what you get... Championship.
no bad coach has ever built a bad team up to an 11-2 start.
So few coaches have a schedule this easy, for one thing. Some guy named Belichick had his team off to a 16-0 start, remember him? Among the many traits that Childress does not share with BB is BB’s ability to take on high risk/high reward players like Randy Moss. I’ll bet that he has RM back to Earth and being productive again by next week. Also, BB has a better eye for talent as evidenced by the Wes Welker acquisition. Anyone could have had him for a nominal price, but only BB saw what he was worth. When Childress acquires a WR, it’s Todd Pinkston, Billy McMullen, or Bobby Wade. Even Bernard Berrian is disappointing this year with very bad cold streaks of the dropsies both years that he’s been in MN.
It doesn’t matter if they melt down in the playoffs or the SB or even if they finally win it all.
Really? Because that seemed to have a lot to do with Dennis Green’s firing and low approval rating from the fans by the end of his tenure. DG and Tice did not have the benefit of the 2nd or 3rd highest payroll in most of their Minnesota years.
Chilly has taken a losing, demoralized team
HA! He inherited a winning team (9-7) and transformed it into a losing team (6-10). Or if you meant this year, he took a 10-7 playoff team and rode it to a better record so far vs. one of the easiest schedules ever generated for a team coming out of the playoffs in the previous season.
What if the team collapses down the stretch? I hope that doesn’t happen, but there is still time.
and built it into a well respected, balanced team with both swagger AND level heads. And yeah, a kick-ass offense.
Brett Favre did most of that. Childress’s offense kicked nobody’s ass (except it nearly kicked his out of town) before BF arrived.
And defense. And special teams.
Antoine Winfield was here before Childress, and he is the only logical explanation between the loss vs. ARI and the win over CIN.
As for ST, if you’re crediting Childress this year, then he also deserves all of the blame for the absolutely disastrous job that his buddy, Ferraro, did in 2008. Also, the majority of the credit on the field would go to Harvin for his KR TDs…and no head coach has ever scrutinized a player as much as Chilly scrutinized Percy. Making a trip to FL at the last minute, 3 days before the draft, to smell his car means that Chilly was very leary about drafting him and was looking for an excuse to pass on him.
It’s like crediting Carl Peterson for drafting Jared Allen in the 5th round…but if Peterson really knew what he had, why give 31 other teams another round or 3 to snatch him up? The truth is that King Carl had drafted JA as a long snapper in the 5th (a stretch for any long snapper), had signed someone mediocre to compete for the DE job, and allowed JA to be in the competition as a formality…and talent that King Carl hadn’t seen took over from there.
no bad coach has ever built a bad team up to an 11-2 start.
Dick Jauron, comes to mind. Just sayin….
Yeah
That example kind of disproves the post. I suppose someone may say that Jauron’s team was never 11-2 since the Bears had won their 11th after they had lost their 3rd.
Wade Philips, then? Childress got too much hate at times but he’s hardly ascended to greatness after a 3/4 of a regular season. The job is still unfinished.
The 9-7 team Tice left wasn’t exactly world beaters and had some sneaky wins and a soft schedule, Childress has certainly made some gaffes along the way. Really I think more credit has to go to Speilman. He’s made some killer moves. GM’s don’t get a lot of credit sometimes but when you have a head coach/GM your team suffers. Even the genius Belichick has shown cracks without a GM like Pioli keeping him in check.
I’ve always thought that Wade Philips was a capable HC, or at least better than Childress. His 12-1 Cowboys were his 3rd shot at being an NFL HC. His Broncos improved (although less than the expected W-L in year 1) and were in the playoffs, then got the quick hook after losing 2 more games in year 2. In BUF, he inherited a 6-10 team and went 10-6 and 11-5 and 8-8…not sure why he was fired there, either. In DAL, he inherited a 9-7 team and coached it to 13-3 (2 wins better than expected). The 2008 Cowboys were also a win better than expected, and the 2009 ‘boys are probably going to have a winning season with a playoff berth, too. It’s true that he has not won a playoff game, but he has consistently coached teams to winning/playoff seasons faster than Childress, and most often with the existing talent.
The team Tice left behind wasn’t great, but Culpepper turned out to be a better QB than the guys that Childress started for 3 years (and Ryan Cook was a disaster). Mewelde Moore was one of the best PRs in Vikings history, but Childress insisted on using less effective players that he liked in that role and traded MM for virtually nothing. The team included several holdovers like Winfield, Sharper, EJ, Kevin and Pat Williams, and a very strong offensive line. Childress had at least half of what he needed when he walked through the door, especially with Wilf willing to open up the checkbook (which nobody had done for Tice or Green).
I disagree about the Patriots missing Pioli. BB traded for a bunch of 2nd round talent in this year’s draft, and I think many of them will produce very well, especially Darius Butler. Meanwhile, look at the dearth of talent on the Chiefs. Pioli’s first move was to draft a system guy for the 3-4 DE and render the 5th overall pick from the year before virtually worthless by playing him out of position. Was installing the 3-4 really more important than shoring up the OL? …or getting a stud RB? I liked the 2nd rounder for Vrabel and Cassell in terms of value, but I think Cassell is only going to be ok and above average at best. Then he traded Tony G. for something like a 4th-5th round pick…as if anyone selected in the 4th-5th rounds would be able to show up and bring what TG brings to the table, even if only for 2-3 more years. Todd Haley had been quoted as saying that his system didn’t have a place for a star TE, and that was a dumb thing to say while trying to trade a star TE for the greatest possible reward. All of their blabbing about systems also reduced Glen Dorsey’s trade value, too.
A few observations
Mewelde Moore was not traded. He was signed as a free agent by the Steelers. It would have been very hard to justify paying Moore good money to be the third running back on the depth chart. Bernard Berrian is an effective punt returner. At this point, Reynaud is the best PR we’ve had since David Palmer.
To keep Culpepper would have required paying him $10 million, which would have been a terrible financial move that would have limited other opportunities to bring in players.
Ryan Cook is a good backup lineman. He can play three different positions on the line, and could probably play any of the five positions if necessary. He is active every week for a reason. Because he’s a good backup.
On signing free agents, Tice did a tremendous job in signing Winfield and Pat Williams. His other free agents—and yes, he had the money to spend—wen’t bust. Travis Taylor, etc. Those guys didn’t produce for the money they were paid.
A hallmark of the Tice administration was beating teams the Vikings shouldn’t have beaten once in a while, and routinely losing to teams they should have beaten. That is not a standard of excellence. Childress has taken the team to the next level, getting consistency. For example, through the games so far this year, the Vikings have beaten all of the teams they were supposed to beat, like the Rams and Browns. Meanwhile, the Packers lost to the Bucs, and the Eagles lost to the Raiders.
I don’t think anyone is saying Brad Childress already compares to Tom Landry or Bud Grant, but we are saying that we like the direction of this team, including the coach. You always strive to get better, every day.
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
That’s right…Mewelde Moore was rumoured to be traded to the Buccaneers, but Chilly opted to not play him or let him return punts (in favor of Wade’s 3 fewer yards per attempt) or trade him or get anything for him…then Moore signed after that season by the Steelers without having a chance to prove himself as a starter. That’s a lose-lose if I’ve ever heard of one. To quote Childress’s area of formal training, that was a very passive-aggressive non-trade to spite Moore.
Culpepper was over a barrell. Even if the perception was that he must be traded, the goal is to get more than the other team. MIA got a QB better than the Childress era Brad Johnson (a sign that his systems may not work so well), the 2007 motley crew of QBs hand-picked by Childress, and Frerotte last season. If you think that Childress is really a QB guru in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, then think what he could have done with Culpepper rather than Kelly Holcomb or Brad Johnson or Tarvaris Jackson. Lots of players are active every week, but that does not mean they were worth a 2nd round draft pick or even helpful so much as warm bodies. Most guys like that were not 2nd rounders.
You may look up the payroll rankings at USA Today. See for yourself that Green and Tice often had one of the very lowest payrolls while Chilly has had a top 3 payroll 3/4 of his seasons in MIN. Tice had 1 year with the 3rd highest payroll before the Wilfs owned the team, but the Vikes had also been dead last a few times in the Green/Tice era.
Then why isn't the great Mike Tice a head coach somewhere else?
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
He is
He is the assistant head coach at Jacksonville.
Did you know that Childress had never been a head coach at any level before arriving in MN?
Not many organizations are dumb enough to fire a coach who leads a team to .500+ records in his last 3 seasons, including 1 or more playoff wins.
LOL
I guess we just disagree. I wish you a nice day, and a Merry Christmas.
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
Childress has taken the team to the next level
what lvl is that? 3 seasons, 0 playoff wins.
by iseepurplepeople on Dec 18, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Oh Please
Don’t act all high and mighty .. We all wanted Chilly fired last year (he had a single diget approval rating ) and he should have been fired.. Ok he is having a break thru season i agree …And i commend him for it .. But how much credit goes to the Hall Of Fame QB we have … Next Year or whenever Brett decide to retire .. We will be back in the same boat we were a year ago .. Do you see a serious Qb in our stable for the future .. NO!.. What If Brett should go down in the next couple weeks (God Forbid) what will happen to our season … And once again we will all be calling for Chilly’s head….
by VikinginCalifornia on Dec 15, 2009 2:51 PM CST reply actions
ViC makes some good points
So we could go back to your comments when Childress’s approval rating was <10 and find that you loved him just as much then as you do now, right? And you weren’t disappointed at all when 4-2 turned into 6-10 (which you probably called “more wins” at the time), right?
The Vikings currently have the 3rd best record with a top 3 payroll. What do you think is supposed to happen with that much talent? Which game was won because of a trick play or a wiley play call? I can’t think of any. I can think of a few that Brett Favre won for the team, though, and Childress can’t take credit for BF. If you’ve been watching those mic’d up segments, BF has been schooling Childress on how to run this offense more effectively.
And after Favre retires, should the seemingly inevitable lull to a much worse W-L record actually happen, you will still praise Childress, right? You will be just as immune to facts then as today, right?
OK
First, I have been a rock-solid Brad Childress supporter since the day that he traded Dante Culpepper. That was the first real test for him. He passed with flying colors.
I was completely, 100% in support of Childress when he had his discipline-heavy first season. When the Patriots whipped the Vikings that Sunday in 2006, the dream that the team was playoff-caliber was exposed as an illusion. At that point, I hoped we were ready to take the next step, but realizing that we would not.
When Brad Childress took the risk and drafted Adrian Peterson, I cheered out loud. When Mewelde Moore was kept on the roster and not used in the final year of his contract, I understood it. Some people thought Peterson wouldn’t make it through his rookie season. We needed three solid backs in 2007.
When the Vikings couldn’t handle the Redskins at home that Monday Night in December in 2007, they were exposed again as a team that just didn’t have a playoff caliber team.
Then the Vikings traded for Jared Allen. Since then, the Vikings are 21-8.
Seriously, I think you need to re-think your bromance with Mike Tice. He was a terrible head coach. You don’t take your offensive line out drinking during the week and expect to win championships.
“After Favre retires.” Well, we’ve heard that one before, haven’t we?
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
When Brad Childress took the risk and drafted Adrian Peterson
He had an injury history, but RBs are historically much safer than QB, WR or CB, all positions of need. Plus, it was to take an already run-heavy team and run some more rather than pass, a very safe, though not terribly effective game plan. There were absolutely no surprise pass plays called on the D’s run plays because they only passed on 3rd and 6+.
21-8 = not counting a playoff loss.
The players go out drinking (and speeding 100+ MPH) under Childress. Cedric Griffin had an absolutely gratuitous DUI…so drunk that he had to sober up while behind the wheel to realize that he was still way too drunk and was STILL too drunk by the time the cops found him. The OL was the best in the NFL during most of the Green/Tice years, and they found lots of hidden gems.
I see, so now you’ve deluded yourself into thinking that Favre will never retire at all. Childress is hoping not.
Linebackers and running game
One area of weakness before Childress got here was linebackers. We only had EJ Henderson. Childress has rectified that situation, the Erin Henderson situation notwithstanding.
The Vikings were a pass-heavy team since Van Brocklin was the pass-loving first head coach. Despite enormous effort, the Vikings had won zero Super Bowls in that time. Brad Childress needed to make a change in the culture of this team. He did it by establishing a new identity for the Vikings as a running team. You have to run to win championships. The Vikings’ only NFL championship came on a very physical team led by Joe Kapp. That team could run the ball.
Furthermore, dropping the Redskins-inspired offense of the Green/Tice era was the right move. The WCO is a good offense that not only has a Super Bowl winning track record, it was practically invented by Jerry Burns, Bud Grant’s offensive coordinator. The WCO, or whatever you call it, has a natural home in Minnesota.
Furthermore, let’s say, Mike Tice was still the Vikings head coach. Would you be glad to get this over and over? (Tice’s #1 draft pick, Troy Williamson, lowlight videos.) (I don’t think terribly of Troy Williamson. He is just not talented as a pro receiver. )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HyEemjm_7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WZNyYouzuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PInDbfGP5Ac&NR=1
Guess who is on the roster down in Jacksonville, where Mike Tice is Assistant Head Coach.
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
The Vikings were a pass-heavy team since Van Brocklin was the pass-loving first head coach. Despite enormous effort, the Vikings had won zero Super Bowls in that time.
The Vikings went to more Super Bowls in a short period of time than anyone else other than the Bradshaw Steelers, the 49ers of the 80s and Bills of the 90s and Patriots of the 2000s. The Vikings are one of the winningest franchises in the NFL, and you’re opposed to repeating that kind of success. That’s about as smart as…a medicine ball. Just a really big pointless THUD.
And Childress’s run-heavy offense with the backs of his choosing were 6-10 and 8-8 with zero playoff appearances. All you did with that blasphemous statement was declare that Childress is an absolute failure every year that he doesn’t win it all!
This season is different because BF is in charge more than anyone else. Many of this year’s wins have been “pass-happy” and so you would wish those away, right?
Green had been an assistant in SF. His offense was a hybrid of WAS (Gibbs had won 3 SBs with it) and SF’s (5 SBs). There simply were no other offenses that had been more successful than those. I love how you bash the Green/Tice era and really the entire team history for being pass-happy with zero SB wins and then praise pass-happy Jerry Burns.
Troy Williamson had a very impressive preseason, and it would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened had he not gotten hurt again.
Anybody off the street can have an impressive preseason
It’s different in games that count.
it’s like Vince Lombardi once said, there is no second place. You either win it all or you are nothing. The only thing the Vikings have ever won that was worth something significant was the 1969 NFL Championship. We all know that the next game the Vikings played that year didn’t go well.
I don’t want a highly competitive team. I want a championship team. That is what Norm Van Brocklin, Bud Grant, Jerry Burns, Dennis Green, and Mike Tice all failed to do. Grant came the closest to doing it. He came really close. Green had a good couple of years with stellar offensive talent and meager defensive talent. Jerry Burns was a great OC and I think a really good HC on a team that couldn’t match the NFC East of that era. Mike Tice was mediocre. He was better than Les Steckel, but ultimately the Vikings were going nowhere under his direction.
You need to understand what it takes to win a championship. The first thing you need is consistency. The second thing you need is physicality. There are other things, too, but it starts with those two. For the first time since I’ve been a fan of the Vikings (since the late 70s, early 80s, when I was very young), we have both on both sides of the ball. The special teams are good, too. That means we actually have a realistic chance to hoist the Lombardi Trophy.No one can assemble this talent by accident. It takes excellent talent evaluation and it takes good coaching and teaching. It takes good scheming. We have all that now. That is why we have a chance to win each and every game we play this year.
Well, we will probably never agree. Suffice to say, whatever you think is probably not what I think.
Go Vikings!
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions
It takes money, too...
and we’re spending that now as well…
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Dec 15, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
Glad to see I inspired so many of you to hit the internet and start looking up stats and records and whatnot. lol
The fact is, Tice left the Vikings in shambles. The players were in charge and the situation was spinning out of control. Remember a certain franchise QB who thought he should dictate where and how he would rehabilitate his knee? And so the Chilly haters began their whining “Oh how could Chilly be so stupid as to let such a great QB go?” C’mon – admit it. You remember what you said at the time…
For the record, I have never said anything negative either publicly or privately about Chilly. (Well, other than a major dad comment or two). In my book, if you like a coach enough to hire him, he gets three years – no matter what. The first year tells you absolutely nothing – ships always slow down when you start to turn them around.
After three years, I publicly defended him on several occasions – adding two extra wins each and every year is in my view the best possible indicator of a healthy team that is moving in the right direction. Now that we are likely to exceed that, I’d personally set the bar at 12 or more wins a season. Unless it dips below that level for three consecutive years, you keep the man in place forever.
As for those who think this team is nothing without Bret Favre – where was he on Sunday? 17 of 30 for 192 yards and a pic? Do you really think Rosenfels couldn’t have managed that? Don’t get me wrong, I was all for the Favre deal, but this is not all about him. Nor is it all about AP or the William’s or Jared Allen or …
From what I have seen, without Favre, we’d be have lost two more than we have and we’d still take the division and be a contender. Meanwhile we have the best depth at QB of any team in the league.
I told you so.
No.
The first year tells you absolutely nothing – ships always slow down when you start to turn them around.
NO, THEY DO NOT ALWAYS SLOW DOWN! It’s lies like this that make people overrate poor and mediocre coaches. Not surprisingly, this false statement comes from a post which bashes those that, you know, look up real information and have real facts in the first sentence.
As high as Favre’s career INT rate is (3.3%), Sage’s is higher (5.2%). As a matter of fact, Favre has never had a single season INT% as Sage’s career INT%. But again, you make fun of being resourceful and anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.
Examples of coaches who didn't need to lose first
Bill Cowher inherited a 7-9 team and coached them to an 11-5 season in year one. He didn’t need a HoF QB to do it, either.
Mike Holmgren inherited a 4-12 team and coached them to a 9-7 record in year one and had won a playoff game by year 2.
Josh McDanliels (DEN) has led his team to 8 wins already, and any more wins this season will mean an improvement over last year. He traded away a franchise QB for Kyle Orton, too.
Sean Payton, hired the same time as Childress, inherited a 3-13 team and coached them to 10-6 with a playoff win in year one…and a winning record after 3 years, with or without playoff games…and maybe you’ve heard that his team is undefeated this year. Unlike Childress, Payton had been an assistant head coach with the Cowboys.
I could go on, but I won’t.
those are all good points kc and i agree you don’t necessarily need to lose more in your first season, but some teams clean house, and in those cases you expect a drop off from the previous year.
childress was brought in to coach and clean up the team, so he dumped talent that didn’t fit the image the new owners wanted to portray. that’s understandable and acceptable to me. jimmy johnson did the same thing with the cowboys.
none of that has anything to do with the fact that childress hasn’t really done anything at all. which is what i think you’re trying to say kc and i agree.
the flip side however is that the organization is better off now than when chilly took over. i think he’s a mediocre coach and wasn’t deserving of an extension at this point, but he has built (or at least helped build) a winner.
we’ll have to wait and see if he can get it done and since he got an extension, we get to see whether we like it or not.
by iseepurplepeople on Dec 18, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
Look
It’s ancient history. We’re moving on. Childress is the head coach, thank goodness.
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
If he doesn't win it all this year
…then what will you say? Today, you said that it’s win it all or [he] is nothing. I will be curious to read your posts in the aftermath.
Right now there is only one game that matters
Sunday Night Football, Carolina Panthers.
by medicineball on Dec 15, 2009 10:47 PM CST up reply actions
Chilly has done ok but.....
Didn’t he come out of the Andy Reed system. i don’t want to end up like the Eagles. “Always the brides maid never the Super Bowl Champ”. Ever notice how they both get conservative in big games? Sometimes you just have to go take the victory. Boise State!!!!!
Conspiracy Theory?
I’m not sure but didn’t Childress come to the pros via Madison WI coaching the Badgers during the Ron Dayne years? They were all hyped “The best running team in the nation”. Were suppossed to legitimize the Pack 10. Total let down didn’t get a national shot. Sharper, longwell, Bevell now Farve. Packers could be trying to take us down from the inside.
When I used to work at Microsoft we had a saying
If you can’t beat them hire them. It worked very well, by the time I finished working on the IE project we had hired many developers from Netscape, when I transfered to Exchange I ended up interviewing many people who worked on Lotus. HR at MS would go out and recruit these people through third parties. It was slightly slimey but it works very well. Take the best people out of your competition and watch your competitors collapse from within.
It also helps to have a monopoly. By the way sell your MS stock it is now in the same category as IBM and Intel. They have gotten to big and are no longer mobile in the marketplace. Pick up stock in Google, they really know what they’re doing.
work for Google now??
My IBM stock is up over 250% from where I purchased it a few years back!
But I agree – you hire the best AND you hire people you know you can work with.
Because even if someone can out-Lotus the next guy, if he’s a complete jerk in the office, you probably won’t bring him in.
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Jan 8, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
No actually your wrong you still hire him
If he works for a competitor then you let him go after six months. He no longer works for the competitor. Problem solved.
MS Strategy
I thought it was, “If you can’t create something cool, buy someone else’s product, tweak it, rebrand it, and convince everyone that you created it.”
MS*DOS, Windows, Word, Excel, Access, Office, real-time file compression, NTFS…
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Yes he was at Wisconsin then...
and that would be the “Big Ten”. Then he went on later to the Eagles and I would never try to shoot down a good conspiracy theory. LOL
"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
Thanks
Your right its Big Ten. Duh!!! i get confused with all these conferences. Ya know the funny thing is there are actually 11 teams now.
check out the Big 10 logo...
There’s an 11 in there!
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Jan 8, 2010 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
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