HUGE: Cardinals tipped off to our Run vs. Pass!!!
by Ace199 on Dec 7, 2009 11:10 PM CST
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PrintHey Fellow Vikings Fans!
This is a potentially huge development from / explanation for last night's game (debacle?). Apparently the Cardinals KNEW WHEN WE WERE GOING TO RUN VS. PASS based on the way Bryant McKinnie lined up his feet. This is apparently no joke; they studied tape on him and noticed he had a "tell":
"Did McKinnie accidentally help Cardinals?"
http://blogs.twincities.com/Vikings/2009/12/did-mckinnie-accidentally-help.html
"Boselli points out that (left tackle) Bryant McKinnie of the Vikings, he said that the Cardinals know when they're [the Vikings] going to pass because of his leg. He would have one of his legs back a little bit further. ... He said they know what's going to happen because they're looking at his feet and they can tell when it's a run and when it's a pass."
According to my football fanatic friend (Saints fan btw) this was on Dan Patrick's radio show today. If this is true this is absolutely huge; on one hand they need to FIX THIS OR BENCH MCKINNIE. There is no question on this. Seriously, if anyone can make sure the Vikings brass (Chilly, Bevell, etc.) know about this, DO IT. On the other hand, this MIGHT make us all feel a lot better about last night; we basically got dominated by the Cardinals D (only) because they (almost) cheated. If we fix this, one would assume last nights game might have been very different.
It's hard for me to believe an NFL tackle could have such a huge flaw, but better we know about it now. Your thoughts?!? (PS - this is my first post of any kind on the site, long time lurker, SKOL VIKINGS!)
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Are you serious?????
Wow….first of all, if this is your excuse, you’re in trouble. YOU LOST….plain and simple. If this is true, then kudos to whoever noticed it and exploited it. What does he do for a play action play??…an irish jig?? If this were true, Favre would catch the coverage read and pass or run accordingly becaus the Cards D would have a “tell” of their own. You fail to account for the 30 that was dropped on the Minnesota D while this lineman was on the bench! Weak argument….thin, very thin my friend.
One Word: SPYGATE
If you don’t think the Cardinals D knowing if we would run vs. pass would help TREMENDOUSLY, you have no idea what you are talking about.
If the Cardinals could watch McKinnie and know if its a run or a pass, they don’t need to give that information away. DID YOU HEAR COLLINSWORTH SAYING HOW THE CARDINALS LBs WERE JUST SITTING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD? Once they know run or pass, the LBs can just sit there and then, on the snap, either bullrush the line if they know its a run, or drop back into coverage, immediately. IT IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE.
Why do you think Bellichek and the Pats will never be looked at the same again? Because SpyGate gave them the same advantage that a “tell” by McKinnie would; THEY KNEW THE PLAY.
Congrats to your coaches for figuring it out. And congrats indeed to your offense for putting up 30 (albiet thanks to 2 picks and a punt return after poor offense by the Vikes). But if this story is true, your D is NOTHING like it seemed last night.
See you in the playoffs, birdie.
by Ace199 on Dec 8, 2009 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I Hate to Agree ..
We Were Out Played and Out Coached … It looks like the real Chilly is about to stand up … Heaven help us all ..
by VikinginCalifornia on Dec 8, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
We were outplayed
Not the refs or someone’s toes pointing this way or that.
PS your and LAVikings’ handle scare the crap out of me!
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 8, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Hmm..
Would be interesting if it was true but I would think more teams would have caught on to this… I think what made more of a difference was that you guys just got outplayed in the trenches. Especially your o-line.
This rings true based on the Arizona D's play
in some situations… When all the linebackers clustered 10 yards behind their 3-man rush why didn’t we audible to the run?! Instead Favre kept throwing into 8-man coverage. Whether it is true or not the Cardinals dominated ALL phases of the game. Congrats to them on the well-earned victory and let’s make sure we’re on our game when we see them in the post-season.
by Jshore on Dec 8, 2009 5:42 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Not new to the NFL
If this is true its not a new tactic. Its a fair way to get an advantage. Every team studies tapes for tendencies. There was one game (Sorry, I can’t remember exactly) where Tony Dorsett would have his mouthpiece in for a run play and not in on a pass play. The Cowboys were destroyed in that game. The problem was fixed the next week.
Very true
A player telegraphing a play goes back to the 60s at least, and probably earlier than that. It happens, it sucks for the team that’s selling itself out but like you said, you find the problem and you correct it.
Anyone who doubts these things happen, talk to a defensive lineman. Or read “Instant Replay” by Jerry Kramer (wonderful book, by the by).
This tell certainly doesn’t account for the entire loss, but if it’s true, it was a factor. There were a lot of other factors in the loss as well, but might as well clean this problem up along with the others.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
I find this highly unlikely
and even if there was slight shred, .000001%, hell has frozen over truth to this, sure as heck no Spygate II. If they got this through video tape before the game, all teams can watch tape of all other teams, so no biggie there. And if this was by some small chance picked up during the game, good job to the Cards for being aware. In any event, this is a none issue and we would be sitting at 2-10, not 10-2.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
I’m wondering if McKinnie’s tell was a result of his sustaining an injury in this game. He was trying to compensate for the injury and probably didn’t even know he was doing it. That might also explain why our offense looked just fine on the opening drive and then mysteriously went the way of the dodo.
This kind of stuff is normal.
As an offensive lineman myself, I know how changing up your stance can help in certain situations. However, it changes based on different run plays and pass plays, so I find it highly unlikely that this worked every time. Obviously, on third and eight, the line has more leeway to be able to stagger their stance to get the kick step back, because everyone knows it will be a pass.
This is probably just someone trying to come up with an excuse. Linemen change their stance all the time. That’s part of the pre-snap game.
Visit:
http://www.vikingvigil.com
Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!
Yea
That was on an old episode of the show coach when they won the national championship game based on a stance by an the opponents lineman
If this were really the case other coaches would have caught it and the offensive line coach for minn. would have caught it in film study every week when he studies his lineman
I believe Dan Patrick is a hack if he reported this
by mississippisaintsfan on Dec 8, 2009 8:31 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah I tend not to give much credibility to this....
Bottom line is the Vikings just did not get it done for one game….
Every other team has had weeks like this….
Some are lucky enough to still get the W…
Witness NO/Indy…..
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Dec 8, 2009 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
Ha
A little luck never hurts no one
by mississippisaintsfan on Dec 8, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions
Ever since the 2000 NFC Championship game
… this has been a concern for the Vikings.
Why do Childress and his coaching staff always—always—hold a big card over their faces while giving plays into their headset?
Why does Childress run a tight ship and reduce leaks, such as injury-related information that is not required to be released by the NFL?
Answer: to help the Vikings win games by preventing other teams from getting an unfair advantage.
McKinnie has to fix this. There are also reports that AD is tipping off run/pass and where he is running with his eye movements prior to the snap.
You never watched Barry Sanders did you?
That guy’s eye’s were scanning the field like a radar before the snap too. They showed that on camera zoomed in countless times. Nothing new there as well. How can a lineman really see into the eyes of a RB who is about 2 to 4 yards behind the QB? To answer that, they can’t! Playing football when I was younger, you were always looking for something to help tip things to your favor. Eye movement is almost impossible to see with a bunch of linemen in front of you, a QB then RB’s farther behind.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
AD needs to eye-scan on pass plays
Not just run plays.
Guys in the NFL typically have very good eyesight.
by medicineball on Dec 8, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Watching the eyes
They can see them… Don’t ask me how, but someone can see. Maybe it’s a linebacker instead of a lineman, but they’re watching. Even from 20-30 yards out, the secondary is watching the QB’s eyes to try and get a jump on which way the ball is going. That’s one of the things a good QB (like Favre, and Brees) does to misdirect the D and move them from one side of the field to the other.
I can’t do it, my eyes are crap. Laser surgery is in my future :) . But NFL players can.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
completely fair game
to try and find “tells” in an opponents game.
I am chalking this loss up to pretty bad play all around. Defensive front got no pressure, backs were getting beat constantly, and the offense (run AND pass) were ineffective.
Between “tripping” and “play-stealing” we are certainly coming off as a pretty petty fanbase.
If you can't laugh at yourself... Who can you laugh at?
The Packers, that’s who.
-- The almighty Manimal
by TheViking83 on Dec 8, 2009 10:41 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
You think that is bad?
The Cardinals were ALSO watching Jared Allen’s crotch so they knew when he was going to rush. If he has a chubby, he is going to rush the quarterback, it’s that simple.
There was a lot more to this game than McKinnie tipping off the defense as to what playcall we make. If he is tipping them off, then that is OUR problem and we need to fix it.
No, we lost that game because we were playing against Kurt Warner, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald. We were already thin at DB, and we pretty much had to play in the Dime for the entire game. That exposes a lot of holes considering the relative inexperience and lack of talent in our secondary.
The fact that we couldn’t get a pass rush just amplified that effect.
They were on, we were off. It’s that simple.
Any other day and this game would be completely different.
is anyone listening
To the Bird fans that get all defensive , its not as though their players are getting accused of cheating, actually they are curiously wondering if our elite athletes are maybe, not playing solid texas hold em……like smiling as they are dealt a 4 of a kind…..I think the coaching staff would have picked this up during film study along time ago, but its an interesting conspiracy…..SKOL
by PURPLEPUSSYEATER on Dec 8, 2009 11:44 AM CST reply actions
It happens
This is normal I have played O and D line in high school an college. Their are lots of tells that you can pick off of people. White knuckles mean run etc… The big thing is that you try and set your stance to be 100% the same every time you get into it. when you get injured this becomes a problem because the injury may well stop you from getting into your wrote stance. As soon as this happens you fall out of your norm and can make mistakes which can be read by the other team.
This is a big deal, and will be corrected if it happens I’ve eaten offensive line men up with this tactic as it lets me key off on them completely.
by Grime on Dec 8, 2009 12:24 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
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