More Stadium News! Support Dick Day and racino gambling!
This looks like yet another great idea and a positive step towards our drive for the new stadium. I don't see any reason not to support Dick Day in this endeavor. He isn't going into it for the Vikings, but he states that the money from non-profit racino gambling could definitely be used towards the new stadium! GO VIKES!
It's exciting to finally see more and more ideas start to pop up as we are beginning to realize the need. Feel the urgency folks!
http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/78775667.html?page=1&c=y
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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I hope this works and the politicians stop playing their little games and let’s this thing fly. This would help ease the burden on the state over all or allow the state to get the money back sooner. Anything that will help with the new stadium and keeping the Vikes at home is more then welcomed!
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
Oh ok,
for a minute there, I thought Dick Day was some special Minnesota holiday.
LMAO
Strike up the cheesy ’70’s skin flick music!
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"That is the craziest sonofabitch I ever saw, how many more like him do you think are up there?"
"We have clearance Clearance. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Dec 8, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
HAHAHA!
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 8, 2009 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
oooof.....
In a land with Prince, Jesse Ventura, and Frankl, makes sense to me!
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Dec 9, 2009 8:48 AM CST up reply actions
Not to mention a tomato thrower...
Yes our MN folk DO make the news in Dubai once in a while (Favre does too!)…
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Dec 9, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions
Dick Day
Sounds like fun. We better let the women in on in it though.
Well it would be good to keep the team
But I must admit I was trolling boards today and quite a few fans out there think Playing at Minnesota is about the same as playing in a nuetral area. They state that when things are good cheers all around but as soon as one thing bad happens teh fans flip and start booing. Personaly I told them to get bent.
However, I havn’t been to a game in a long time up there. I think last time I was up there I was actually playing in the dome…
So question do you think Vikes fans suck?
I really don't get your question.
How can a fan suck?
Why Do People Question The Vikings' Status?
by UnBannedVikingholic on Dec 9, 2009 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
They don't,
they blow.

"What is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
by cryhavoc on Dec 10, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No, they/we don't
The politicians who can’t understand the importance of the Vikings, both monetarily and symbolically, to the state and people of Minnesota, are the ones who suck.
And so does your Mom, Trebek.

"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Monetarily?
Study after study has shown that professional sports teams don’t effect an economy of a metropolitan area, or, if they do, only very marginally and most often negatively.
See Baade(1996), Noll and Zimbalist (1997), Coates and Humphreys (1999).
Swindell and Rosentraub (1998) found that there is SOME intangible benefit of a sports team in a metro area on the citizens’ civic pride, but it is greatest for those that actually attend the games. It is marginally less for the people that watch the team on television (about the same effect that museums have) and there is NO benefit at all from non sports fans.
In summation, the Vikings are not important monetarily or symbolically to the Twin Cities or the state of Minnesota.
I wish people would read actual studies rather than the promotional literature that NFL teams commission. The Broncos said their new stadium would bring in 120 million in revenue a year for Denver, but of course they ignored the substitution effect — people stop going to movies as much, etc. to keep amusement and entertainment budget constraints the same. I imagine the Vikings are using the same faulty arguments for their proposal to get the citizens of MN to pay for THEIR stadium.
by RipHimToShreds on Dec 11, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
I've read several articles on this topic
and although I’m not an economics major, like you, (and congrats and good luck in law school, BTW) the basis that these articles (well, the ones I’ve read) use is whether or not a new stadium brings in more money to replace an existing one. I think that’s the wrong question to ask. What happens when a revenue producing industry leaves town? The revenue leaves with it. The jobs that go are more than likely low paying jobs, and the Substitution Affect, to some degree, will compensate for the loss of income spent at a football game. But jobs and revenue still leave. And there will be jobs that are created during stadium construction, which is not insignificant in this economic climate. And is it possible for economists to over-estimate the Substitution Affect as much as professional teams under estimate it?
It seems pretty simple. An industry leaves, jobs leave. When an industry that generates a good portion of it’s income on people coming in from out of town, more revenue is lost.
Also, it cannot be denied that there is a lot of money injected into a local economy when that city hosts a Super Bowl or Final Four. Detroit had over $300 million injected into their economy. Here in St Louis, I remember $250 million generated from the Final Four a few years back. Those are events that Minneapolis will continue to attract with a new enclosed facility. We can argue about the numbers, because I think every formula to determine how revenue is generated is imperfect, but it cannot be denied that there is an economic impact for those events.
Also, could it be possible that the people that produced these reports have an anti-public funding bias going in, just as the teams that produce their version of the truth have a pro-public funding bias? Most of academia today is left or center-left politically, and generally, the left is anti-public funding for stadiums.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
“Also, it cannot be denied that there is a lot of money injected into a local economy when that city hosts a Super Bowl or Final Four. Detroit had over $300 million injected into their economy. Here in St Louis, I remember $250 million generated from the Final Four a few years back.”
Mega-events are actually a huge economic detriment to cities. See “Bidding for the Olympics: Fools Gold?” by Robert Baade. Detroit most likely did not have 300 million injected into their economy, nor St Louis. See here: http://www.thesportseconomist.com/2009/11/tour-operators-and-mega-events.htm for more information. Here for Super Bowl reality check (last post): http://thesportseconomist.com/labels/mega-events.htm
and here for reasons why the economic effects of mega-events are grossly miscalculated:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/hcx/wpaper/0610.html
(if you don’t want to read it, it’s because they ignore substitution effects, focusing only on gross economic benefit)
There is simply very little empirical evidence for your claim about the Super Bowl or Final Four.
“Also, could it be possible that the people that produced these reports have an anti-public funding bias going in, just as the teams that produce their version of the truth have a pro-public funding bias? Most of academia today is left or center-left politically, and generally, the left is anti-public funding for stadiums”
This is possible, but it is easily proven false by looking at the raw numbers they get from censuses or private research firms. You can redo the calculations. Their methodology is in the articles themselves. I admit I haven’t done this, but “Climategate” notwithstanding (most of the emails were taken wholly out of context, but that’s another story), I don’t see this as being a widespread or systematic issue.
Furthermore, I don’t really get what you mean when you say that left-wingers don’t support public finance for stadiums. It is usually the anti-big government conservatives and libertarians that are the most vocal opposition to this sort of welfare for billionaires. But maybe I’m wrong. I’m not really knowledgeable about it.
“whether or not a new stadium brings in more money to replace an existing one”
Actually, at least one of the papers had a dummy variable for a new stadium, a replacement of an existing one, and entrance or exit of a football, baseball, or hockey franchise. Football had the most benefit — but only the entrance of a new franchise — while the rest had mostly negative or insignificant increases in terms of economic growth.
“. What happens when a revenue producing industry leaves town? The revenue leaves with it. The jobs that go are more than likely low paying jobs, and the Substitution Affect, to some degree, will compensate for the loss of income spent at a football game. But jobs and revenue still leave. And there will be jobs that are created during stadium construction, which is not insignificant in this economic climate. And is it possible for economists to over-estimate the Substitution Affect as much as professional teams under estimate it?”
The short answer to your question “what happens when an industry leaves town?” is “it depends.” The long answer is that it seems pretty dishonest to call a football franchise an “industry” — industries are usually a much more general category. Football franchises are just part of the entertainment and recreation industry. These firms leave and enter the market all the time depending on profitability. The profitability is the invisible hand that guides the market — no or negative profit means an oversupply and the firm shuts down and high profits means an undersupply and more firms enter. I know the explanation might be trivial to you, but I don’t know if you’ve taken any economics at all (you probably have, so, sorry, I didn’t mean to patronize).
We don’t subsidize the majority of these firms, and economic analysis has shown that sports franchises aren’t special, so basically the argument is “I don’t want them to leave so everyone should pay to keep them here.”
You are correct in saying that the stadium construction will create jobs, at least in the short run, but that’s not the argument that people are making about the Vikings. They are saying the Vikings leaving would be detrimental to the economy of the Twin Cities, and the evidence just does not support it. Plus, I’m not sure crowding out private investment with government spending is a good way to boost an economy. But I’m not a Keynesian.
Thanks for your wishes about law school.
by RipHimToShreds on Dec 11, 2009 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
Okay, you've pretty much kicked my ass,
and it’s pretty apparent I’ve brought a stubby pencil with no eraser to a calculator fight, but let me try to retain a shred of my dignity here, lol. I think it’s…unfair, maybe…to compare the Olympics with the Super Bowl. I think it’s easy to see why the Olympics are a loser financially. Athens, Beijing, and every other city that bids has to spend tens of millions in marketing just to be considered (and that’s just above the table), and then hundreds of millions, if not billions(speculating on final costs, but it’s got to be staggering) to build all the required venues to stage all the events, and upgrade road infrastructure, public transportation, etc. The Super Bowl is a one day event (yes, there’s a lead up), but it’s played in a facility that doesn’t need to be built, and the marketing is miniscule. For Detroit, it was the NFL telling them they would give them a Super Bowl if they built a retractable roof facility. And your supporting argument from the post off of the Sports economist, the poster did concede that there was an economic benefit, he just argued the final numbers.
When I was referring to the Vikings as an industry, I meant within the context of the tourism/entertainment industry; could’ve done a better job clarifying that—my bad. That would take a hit, and it would affect the city. Would it be a huge hit, like an auto plant that employs 20% of the population closing, or a military base closing near a small town that emplys 40% of a towns population? Of course not, because Mpls is obviously a lot bigger with a more diverse industry base. However, it would be noticeable. Anecdotally, St Louis saw two restaurants close downtown during the NHL lockout several years back. They were popular hotspots for the hockey crowd, and that carried them through the non-hockey season. With no hockey crowds, they shuttered up (Route 66 Brewery, which had GREAT home brew beers and another pub-type place). And you’re absolutely right that firms enter and leave the marketplace all the time based on profitability, but doesn’t Minnesota offer significant tax breaks to lure business to ensure they stay in Minnesota and remain profitable? What’s the difference whether they do it for Best Buy headquarters or for the Vikings? The principle is the same.
My claim about the left not supporting public funding for stadiums is a generalization, and you’re right that there is opposition from all sides, but it’s the left that wants public spending, for the most part, just not stadiums. Which is ironic in this case, considering the hundreds of billions earmarked for the TARP and the stimulus, the latter who’s intent is supposed to spur job creation, which this stadium would do. I get that the stimulus is fed money and this is a state issue, but I still note the general irony of it all, which is throw billions at projects that create jobs, just not this project.
I’ll admit that this is more emotion than reason for me. Eventually, would the hotels, restaurants, bars, and other areas affected by the Vikings leaving figure something out and rebound? Sure, but to say that there would be no impact, especially short term, when a business leaves town, just seems to fly in the face of logic to me, like saying Tiger Woods needs to acquire more mistresses to save his marraige.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
One last thing
As I understand this Racino proposal, there’s no state money involved, correct? It’s just revenue realized from expanded gambling? Oh, and more political irony in this, as I understand it. The Republican party, the ‘morality guys’, are the ones in favor of this expansion of gambling, for the most part.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
I don't think anyone kicked anyone's ass
but that’s beside the point.
You are right that it is probably unfair to compare the Olympics to the Super Bowl. To host the Olympics a city must invest much more capital than a city hosting the Super Bowl. But the logic is still basically the same. The paper I cited right after the sportseconomist article has all the sordid details about that if you are interested. It’s Friday night and I’m pretty well in the bag right now so I shan’t comment further on that matter lest I misrepresent what the paper said due to general drunkenness or my own personal biases that seem to come out during inebriation.
“When I was referring to the Vikings as an industry, I meant within the context of the tourism/entertainment industry; could’ve done a better job clarifying that—my bad. That would take a hit, and it would affect the city.”
One of the papers I originally cited (I believe it was either Baade or Coates and Humphreys — I’d have to double check) showed that actually very few people visit cities to watch sports teams. When I read that I was just as shocked as you probably are — but we are both sports fans and probably have visited cities for the sole purpose of watching sports and human nature makes us assume that more people are like us than they really are (see research on the Bayesian Truth Serum if that interests you; it’s really quite fascinating). So tourism may take a hit but it would be very, very slight, and certainly not worth the cost of the stadium. One estimate had $2 million per job saved. You don’t have to have a PhD in Public Finance to know that is not the most efficient way to retain income in a city.
“My claim about the left not supporting public funding for stadiums is a generalization, and you’re right that there is opposition from all sides, but it’s the left that wants public spending, for the most part, just not stadiums. Which is ironic in this case, considering the hundreds of billions earmarked for the TARP and the stimulus, the latter who’s intent is supposed to spur job creation, which this stadium would do. I get that the stimulus is fed money and this is a state issue, but I still note the general irony of it all, which is throw billions at projects that create jobs, just not this project.”
If what you say is true about the left not wanting to fund stadiums, then I agree that their position is strongly ironic, especially considering the left has historically been more than willing to put people to work temporarily (like the public projects of the New Deal). Since I don’t pay attention to these things I can only comment very weakly on the matter. I hardly have any political positions myself other than basic “wasting money is bad” which everyone agrees with — the question is WHAT is a waste of money, which both parties tend to get wrong remarkably well. At any rate, you may be right, but I don’t know if that shows a systematic bias within academic research in this area — especially because this is economic research and professional economists are generally split pretty well in the left-right political divide. Much more so than other social scientists which, I agree, are largely left-wing.
Sure, but to say that there would be no impact, especially short term, when a business leaves town, just seems to fly in the face of logic to me/strong>
In the short run there would be a slightly negative reaction. In the long run it might be good for the urban economy (and almost certainly not bad). But, as I said, a $1 billion stadium, of which the state could theoretically pay up to 75% of, if the Twins stadium is any indicator, is hardly worth the slight negative bump the city would have.
As I understand this Racino proposal, there’s no state money involved, correct? It’s just revenue realized from expanded gambling?/strong>
That is ignoring the opportunity cost of the money. We could use the racino money to do other things that would help job creation more than the Vikings stadium. If there is no political will to do that and the racino option is only on the table FOR the Vikings and the Vikings only, and it is not just a general proposal to boost state revenue, then sure. I guess I wouldn’t care too much. I actually support adding gambling institutions in general to states, but that’s because I really like playing poker :P
The Republican party, the ‘morality guys’, are the ones in favor of this expansion of gambling, for the most part.
I don’t think it is much of a surprise that the party that is so adamantly against personal sexual freedom and has the most closeted homosexuals in their ranks is two-faced on other issues. Seems like pretty standard fare to me :P
by RipHimToShreds on Dec 12, 2009 1:13 AM CST up reply actions
Forgot to mention
There are other, more creative, solutions to this problem. One of them could be incorporating the stadium and selling shares the general public. Another one could be a tax on stadium ticket sales to finance the stadium. I especially like this proposal because of the Swindell and Rosentraub article that found that those that get the most intangible benefit are the ones that attend the games themselves — it makes sense to tax those that get the benefit from an economic efficiency standpoint. However I don’t know how the team would react to a proposal like this. I know the Colts threatened to not renew their lease with Lucas Oil Stadium if something like this was implemented, probably because of the NFL’s idiotic blackout policy.
by RipHimToShreds on Dec 12, 2009 1:24 AM CST up reply actions
milcardfan and RipHimto Shreds
Great discussion on some very important points. Even if drinking during writing you both were very civil on a very sensitive subject. I appreciate the arguments from both of you.
by lifelongvike on Dec 12, 2009 6:57 AM CST up reply actions
+100
Salient points on the subject from both….
Rip Him To Shreds should be a lawyer LOL….
MilCardFan expresses in layman’s terms thoughts we all have (at least me)…
Good stuff!
Wow an INTELLIGENT conversation! Holy Cow!
SKOL and GO VIKES Sunday!
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Dec 12, 2009 7:52 AM CST up reply actions
We are no differant than any other team
All teams in all sports have the fair weather fans and the bandwagoners. 6 years ago you had one Steelers club here in Albuquerque. They had a fair amount of members. After the first Super Bowl back in 2005 (current era that is), talk about an explosion of fans. They had the bar they meet at pretty much packed each week. Enter last years Superbowl and an off shoot of the main club started meeting at the bar where I go to since the other one had become so big.
Last time I checked, the Steelers club that’s at my “home” bar is barely existant and the main one suddenly has a big drop off in attendence. Do their fans suck? No way. But as I pointed out to a certian pinhead the other week who called Minnesota fans pathetic, name me one team that doesnt go through an increase in “followers” when they are doing good and then the drop of said followers when things go the losing way.
In 2007, you could find Packers fans all over the place here. Cheering up a storm over the NFC Championship run. Last year, you would be lucky to see 2 Packers jerseys at my hang out when the year before they had a big screen and section all to themselves. Same goes for the Bears fans a few years ago during their Super Bowl run. Fans in Minnesota are no differant then the ones in Green Bay, Chicago, Pittsburgh and anywhere else. When times are good, everyone is eating the cake and drinking the champaigne! During the down times, the hard core are still there while the rest find something else to do.
Every fan that says we suck needs to look in the mirror because their fans do the exact same thing. They just like pointing it out to us when we do good as they get it pointed out to them when they do good.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"You men are only risking your lives, while I am risking an almost-certain Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor!"
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
Local Watering Hole
I visited my local pub during last Sundays games since ours was at night. A group of Redskins fans ( I’m in Florida) were there. I thought “what great fans”. If the Vikes had won just three games would I be that joyous? Actually I think I would be. I agree that all fans are the same. The die hards are there through thick or thin. The crowd follows a winner.
If anyone truly believes the Metrodome is not a unique homefield advantage then they don’t really understand football.
As to the original post. The gambling lobby will spare no expense to pass more gambling legislation. They will attach themselves to any project to get votes. The people of Minnesota will probably not be seduced to voting for one if they don’t like the other. I’ve said this before. Either the people want the Vikings or they don’t. If so build a stadium. If not then don’t build a stadium. It is that simple. I’m not opposed to gambling but I do respect the moral implications of the activity. If Minnesotans don’t approve of gambling then the Vikings should not be part of that decision process.
by lifelongvike on Dec 10, 2009 7:46 AM CST up reply actions
You're never "lucky" to see Packer fans lol
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Dec 10, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
Coming out of the woodwork
Good posts guys. There have always been fair weather fans. My oldest son is a Chiefs fan my other son is a Cowboys fan & my daughter is a Packers fan. Where did I go wrong.
The Chiefs fan sticks with his team through thick & thin & right now it’s pretty thin. The Cowboys fan is good through the thick to medium. My daughter couldn’t even tell you who the Pack is playing next week. There are hardcore & bandwagon & everything in between & that’s just in my own family.
THERAPY
Might I suggest family therapy. Unfortunately all of us from Iowa need more therapy than we can afford. The problem is all the good therapist have moved out of state.
LOL
by lifelongvike on Dec 12, 2009 6:39 AM CST up reply actions
Here also BIG demand....
Lots of depressed people around this place nowadays….
Probably has something to do with their rapid move to poverty LOL…
Trying to get them to watch Vikings and cheer up!
Money can be replaced, Vikings cannot!
SKOL!
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Dec 12, 2009 7:54 AM CST up reply actions
Hmmmmm
Get a purple colored stick and beat them into submission…..JUST KIDDING!!!!! M in laws around Alb stayed away from the Cowboys and Broncos since those are usually the teams of choice here. One is a Chargers fan thru think and thin and does the NFL package each year, the other, decided to be a Vikings fan, hat’s off to him! hahaha And that was before we moved here too. So probably what you got there, they decided to go against the common team and find someone else. Eh, it happens. At least your oldest son is hardcore and I always salute those kinds of fans.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"You men are only risking your lives, while I am risking an almost-certain Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor!"
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Dec 12, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

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