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2009 SBNation Mock Draft - PLEASE READ

You know that thing that I talked about potentially happening that I didn’t think had any chance of happening? Remember, with that one guy that I didn’t think could possibly fall to #22 overall actually landing in Minnesota’s laps?

Yeah. . .we need to seriously discuss what action to take if that happens.

Now, Percy Harvin is currently leading in our poll, but that poll didn't include Mark Sanchez, largely because I didn't think there was any way he would get to us.  But now, there appears to be a much better than average chance that that happens.

So. . .if I were to go by the poll, Percy Harvin would be our selection.  If Sanchez is there, do we scrap that and go with the QB, or do we still stick with Harvin?

Have at it, folks!

Poll
If Southern Cal QB Mark Sanchez does fall to the Vikings at pick #22 of the 2009 SBNation Mock Draft. . .who should Gonzo use the pick on?
Florida WR Percy Harvin (the winner of the initial poll)
45 votes
Southern Cal QB Mark Sanchez (who nobody thought would get to #22)
65 votes

110 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.

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I wouldn’t be thrilled with either of these two with their first pick, but forced to choose, I chose Sanchez.

I don’t think it’s THAT out of bounds to imagine Sanchez falling this far, though. He seems to be in that Brian Brohm/Brady Quinn/Aaron Rodgers class of QB prospects that teams are hesitant to invest a real high pick on.

by jianfu on Mar 29, 2009 5:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If Sanchez ends up anything like Rodgers, I'd be willing to invest a first round pick.

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by Andersklasen on Mar 29, 2009 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's just it...

With all three of those guys (Rodgers, Brohm, Quinn), you’re just not sure how good they’ll be on draft day. Plus, let’s face it, GMs are scared to death of drafting a bust QB, which is why the non-elite ones tend to slide until it’s a relatively “safe” pick. But considering the Vikings QB situation, well, I wish one of them were on the team. (Of course, if they had Quinn, they wouldn’t have AP; and if they had Brohm, they wouldn’t have Tyrell Johnson, whom I’m excited to see start all year, so you get some you lose some.) But barring the emergence of a consistent passing game, eventually they’re going to have bite the bullet and take another QB. This “game manager” bar for success is just holding the team back.

Again, I’m not sold on Sanchez at all. But he has some things going for him, too.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree about the game manager model.

The “game manager” style only works if said game manager is close to average and not throwing a pick per game as Frerotte was. Really, last year was more of a something-out-of-nothing-and-hope-it’s-enough QB strategy—well short of a real game manager strategy.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harvin

As you pointed out, Sanchez is in a class of QBs who fall (and aren’t necessarily great when they finally get the chance to play). At least the other guys had their college coach’s endorsement that they were ready to move on to the NFL.

Back up 2 years. Would you have taken Brady Quinn (who you compared to Sanchez) over AP by this same logic?

As for Rodgers, the Packers may have had another SB win had they drafted someone more helpful to their team when they were in win-while-Favre-is-still-here phase.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

I wasn’t/am not much of a Quinn fan. Better than T-Jack or Sage? Yeah. But that’s not saying much.

I didn’t intend to lay out any sort of cast in stone “logic.” I’m not saying they should take the first decent QB prospect who comes their way (neither Sanchez nor Harvin are my preference at #22). Particularly when you have a great prospect also there. (I don’t think Harvin will have an AP-like impact, let’s put it that way.)

I did like Brohm a lot. Even though I think Johnson could be good for them, I think that’s the splurge I would have made.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quinn and Brohm

I had Peterson ranked higher than Quinn, and I was surprised that the Vikings didn’t take Quinn at the time to fill a need since TJ had been so disappointing up to that point. I wouldn’t be surprised if Quinn turned into a productive starter soon (a la Rich Gannon) although he’ll have to show quite a bit of improvement immediately to even have a chance.

I thought that Brohm would have been nice depth for us (or any team) at QB, and if that’s all he turned out to be for 2nd round money, then fine. Tyrell Johnson will need to be a good or great starter for several years to make up for what could have been between DeSean Jackson and Brian Brohm.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol So disappointing? Jackson had only started in 2 games at that point. The GB game was terrible, in part due to a wide-open Williamson dropping an easy over-the-shoulder catch. The Rams was a wash. The defense sort of gave up that game.

I’m not entirely sure if I’d take Quinn over Jackson though, based solely on production last season. Jackson can make the offense explosive. He was definitely playing better at the end than the beginning. I didn’t really pay attention to Quinn last year, but I know he wasn’t all that great.

by Frost on Mar 30, 2009 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I’ve never thought that Tarvaris looked great in a game until the end of 2008 when he faced some of the worst defenses he’ll likely ever see.

Tell me which games I should review in order to find Tarvaris Jackson checking down to his second option, not including backfield dump-offs. I can’t recall seeing ONE such play in 2006-2007, and even a bad QB should have a few such plays per year.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brohm

was beat out by a 7th round pick from LSU. I still don’t know why people are so high on the guy after that.

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 31, 2009 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Given Our Current Situation

…and our 3 year struggle to put together any semblance of a passing game, I don’t know how we could pass on Sanchez. I’m not thrilled with him as a prospect, but I do think he would be decent value at 22.

Considering that Childress will likely lose his job if we fail to improve on last season, our front office would be foolish to not give the next HC some options at the future of the QB position.

by Forty-Four on Mar 29, 2009 5:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

“our front office would be foolish to not give the next HC some options at the future of the QB position”

Seriously? If the front offive thought like that, Childress would have been fired already and the “New HC” would be there looking for the QB HE wants, not trying to figure out how to work with a guy who was drafted the year before by someone else. If Childress is, as you say, likely to lose his job if they fail to improve on last season, then how does a rookie QB with little college experience help with that?

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 29, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whether you buy into my thinking or not

We aren’t likely to draft a WR in the first round anyway. Childress has publicly stated in the past that he doesn’t feel like the first round is where you want to get your WRs. Just like Andy Reid, the two of them have drafted WRs in the first round exactly ONE time - Freddie “X” Mitchell at 25th - and that proved to be a mistake for Reid. Despite lacking WR talent all those years Reid never picked a WR other than Freddie X — and shares the belief with Childress that 1st round WRs are far too risky for the investment.

…and even if YOU can’t see it, drafting a QB for the future of the team, with or without Childress, makes perfect sense when there are so few quality QBs in the league.

by Forty-Four on Mar 30, 2009 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

DeSean Jackson

…was a 1st round talent in the 2nd round (and the Vikings should have picked him instead, but I digress).

That doesn’t happen terribly often, though, and there is an appreciable difference between a Todd Pinkston type that Chilly loves and a 1st round talent. 1st round WRs bust almost as often as 1st round QBs, but at least a 1st round WR can return kicks if nothing else.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Statistically speaking, if you want to draft a good WR, you pick one of the first 4 consensus receivers. (Although historically scouts have had trouble deciphering which of the 4 will be the best.) If you want a good QB, you draft the top one or maybe two.

advancednflstats.com

Of course there are top-tier busts (Williamson is close to all our hearts and fears) and of course there are late round finds at both positions. But according to this research, from a cold and sober probability standpoint, if you’re looking for a good WR or QB, the route that gives you the best chance is to take either one of the top 4 WRs or the top (or sometimes 2nd) QB, and then you hope and pray they become good.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

However...

the major limitation to this research is its looking at aggregated data (that is, to determine the top 4 WRs, it simply assumes the first 4 WRs taken were the consensus pre-draft best WRs). We don’t know if all teams had the same 4 WRs as the best, for instance.

And of course some teams simply crush the evaluation process (i.e., Indy with Reggie Wayne and Anthony Gonzalez).

At any rate, take that link for whatever you think its worth. I think rigidly avoiding WRs in the first round (a la Reid and Childress) isn’t terribly wise. It maybe worked in Bud Grant’s day (who’s said something to similar effect), but not in today’s game.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"...rigidly avoiding WRs in the first round...isn't terribly wise."

We are in agreement about that.

I’ve read those studies, and I vehemently disagree with them. Statistically, ONE of the top 2 consensus QBs (or top 2 taken) may have been successful in more years than not, but the other guy was Ryan Leaf or Todd Blackledge (with future Pro Bowlers Tony Eason and Ken O’Brien as well as future HoFers Jim Kelly and Dan Marino still left in the first round alone) or Akili Smith…so that data does not really make a sound case for Sanchez over a 1st round WR.

Also, it was pointless of them to calculate the odds of a 1st vs. 2nd vs. 3rd…round pick becoming a pro bowler. The first round is unique in that the player is expected to start 3-5+ years. Nobody drafts a career backup QB (nor a career backup at any position) in the 1st round, but that is fine in the 2nd round and increasingly the case beyond that. Not all good picks are appreciated enough to become PBers anyway, even if they were at least as good as some who were invited to Hawai’i.

I’ll have a longer post of my own about this sometime before the draft.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Regardless of How We Feel

It’s likely that the Vikes will look another direction come draft day.

by Forty-Four on Mar 30, 2009 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

I don’t think Chilly gets 100% say in the draft room, so there is a chance that the team could draft a WR. We shall see.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think There is a chance

CHILDRESS would draft a WR in round one. I also don’t think, based on what I have read, that he is alone in his thinking.

I guarantee if the right WR drops near us that we would make an effort to draft them. - but all things totally equal I think they would look at OL and DB first.

by Forty-Four on Mar 30, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK

All the better. I’d read somewhere that the Vikings had invited Darrius Heyward-Bey to work out, but sometimes these visits are gamesmanship as much as anything.

by KC Viking on Mar 31, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

2nd QBs are bad news, especially those available at #22

The 2nd QB taken (and QB available at #22 overall) in each year between 1980-2004 were as follows:
2004: Rivers (Losman)
2003: Leftwich (Grossman)
2002: Harrington (Ramsey)
2001: Brees (I’m counting 32nd overall as 1st round for the sake of consistency)
2000: none
1999: McNabb (none or Shaun King)
1998: Ryan Leaf (none or Charlie Batch)
1997: (Druckenmiller)
1996: none
1995: K Collins (Todd Collins or none)
1994: Dilfer (none)
1993: Mirer (none)
1992: Maddox
1991: T. Marinovich (Favre was available)
1990: Andre Ware
1989: Mike Elkins
1988: none
1987: Kelly Stouffer (Jim Harbaugh)
1986: Chuck Long (none or Jack Trudeau)
1985: none (Randall Cunningham was available)
1984: none (Boomer Esiason was available)
1983: Todd Blackledge (Ken O’Brien or Dan Marino)
1982: Jim McMahon (none, or Oliver Luck)
1981: Neil Lomax was taken 33rd overall, and 6th overall pick Rich Campbell played in 7 games in his entire career.
1980: Mark Malone (he of the 60 TD, 81 INT career stat line)

I score that as 14.5 bust points out of 20 eligible years for a whopping 72.5% bust rate among QB seconds available at pick #22+.

In some years, there simply aren’t 2 good NFL QBs, so drafting the 2nd best QB year after year with no regard for merit/skills is a bad idea.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair to the study, he did indicate the 1st QB was the key. The 2nd is often a crapshoot.

The bust rate for QBs is incredibly high, no matter where they’re picked. Beyond the fact that its so hard to find players uniquely talented enough to succeed, there are several factors working against you if you’re a young NFL QB prospect:

1) You’re the only one on the field doing what you do. If you’re a rookie linebacker, there’s 2 or 3 other players out there at your position with you to help out.

2) You’re generally considered to be the most important key to your team’s success, so you’re not going to typically get a ton of time to struggle while you hone your skills.

3) If you’re drafted high, you’re probably playing for a team with a crappy offensive line and/or crappy receivers/running backs, making your job more difficult.

And so on…

The numbers can be depressing. OTOH, the main quibble I have with that study is that most of the time you’re not realistically expecting a pro bowler when you draft. It’d be nice, but it’s not realistic. I stated I would’ve taken Brohm last year. I wouldn’t expect him to be Drew Brees; but merely “solid” would be a huge leap for this organization.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

QB bust rates

They’re not really as high in the later rounds because the expectations and costs are so much lower.

A team would have more success selecting a 6th round QB every year over a 5-10 year period than the 2nd/highest rated QB at #22 overall once every 4-5 years. In the 25 years I studied, 6th round starters included Rodney Peete, Jeff Blake, Stan Humphries, Steve Bono, Mark Rypien, Matt Hasselbeck, Derek Anderson, and Tom Brady (with many other QBs available in 7th or later rounds such as Wade Wilson, Brad Johnson, Trent Green, Elvis Grbac, Tyler Thigpen and Matt Cassell).

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cool. Do you have a link to your study? I think expectations play an underrated role in all this. It’s possible (and I’d say probable) a lot of the earlier busts would’ve been more successful had they come into the league with lessor profiles. There are a couple teams that seem to take a QB almost every year (Tampa Bay and Green Bay come to mind), which probably isn’t a bad strategy. At the very least, he’s depth; if he develops into something, that’s a great value for a late pick, whether you have him play for your team or you trade him.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Linkage

You can look around at pro-football-reference for just about anything you want. I haven’t finished and posted my piece about drafting a QB or WR yet, but I expect to have it done and posted on the DN in the next 2 weeks or less.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn’t matter what either of us see. My opinion is as vaild as yours or anyone elses because I can more than guarantee that no one here has any actual affiliation with the Vikings other than being a fan (ie no one here gets a paycheck from Winter Park) and we are all just stating what we think is best for the team. We can try and prove our positions through debate, but don’t try pulling any of the “YOU” BS because you don’t know any more than anyone else vike44_07 ;)
 The Vikings aren’t going to take a QB just to take a QB no matter how few quality ones there are. Are you trying to say that Sanchez is quality? The only reason he is a first round pick is because there is no real talent at the QB position this year. He waits till next year and he is lucky to be the 4th best QB and is definitely not a 1st rounder. It only makes prefect sense if you have backed yourself into a corner thinking all the Vikings need is a QB to go all the way and that simply isn’t the truth.

Don’t believe that noise about not taking a 1st round WR. If the BPA is a WR, they will take one. That is simply some played out rhetoric from his first year when people were saying the Vikings desperately needed a WR over 2 years ago.

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 31, 2009 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could see the real Vikes

jumping up to take a sliding Sanchez, but I would rather we wait till next years QB class wich should produce several high calibur QB Prospects, meny that will grade higher then Sanchez. There is a reason Sanchez came out early. that is because all the best QB’s this year, stayed in school. if just one of Colt McCoy or Sam Bradford came out this year he would not be a first round candidate this year. I say wait ‘til next year and make a run for Colt McCoy, he has way more potential then Sanchez, how doesn’t have enough experience to start right away any way.

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Mar 29, 2009 7:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Though I like Graham Harrell better than Colt McCoy.

by Anthony Carter on Mar 30, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I think he’ll fall quite a bit with the “system QB” tag on him, but I think he’s better than that.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harvin Still

Taking Sanchez would require a couple of years development while this team is built to win now. As I have said in past posts, Harvin provides VERSATILITY which to me is more valuable than another possible JDB on the roster. Anybody who has doubts on Percy should look at the National Championship game against Oklahoma which he played in hurt. You can use the guy anywhere. Another weapon in an already dangerous offense would be hard to pass up.

by purplegrey on Mar 29, 2009 7:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm really torn on this

And I may end up flipping a coin when it’s all said and done.

I also, honestly, don’t see any way that Sanchez makes it to Minnesota in the real draft, while Harvin being there is a very real possibility.

Man. . .this was supposed to be easy. (-:

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by Gonzo on Mar 29, 2009 7:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So...

After using a draft pick to get a QB that they have clearly liked for a while, seeing that they have tried to trade for him the last two years, and bring him in to compete with a QB the coach has been developing, with a team many consider to be ready to take the next step, and instead of getting a player in the first round that would make an immediate impact, they take a guy that will sit for at the very least a year? That doesn’t seem to make sense. I get that people want a QB that will some how throw for 300 yards (only NO averaged 300 yards a game last year and we clearly don’t run the same kind of offense as they do) and 3 TDs every game on a team that only averages 28 pass attempts/game last year (League Average was 33 att/G), but clearly that QB isn’t there this year. Getting an additional playmaker and solidifying the RT spot seem to be bigger priorities whether Sanchez is there or not.

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 29, 2009 9:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

Very good point! I voted for Sanchez based on his arm strength and potential but after reading your comment I believe I would change my vote if I could even though Harvin would not be on the field for every offensive play. I do know that he would be a difference maker when he is in and his contributions on ST’s would be a major upgrade.

by nmvikesfan on Mar 29, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+2

Stop and think of an offense that has Peterson, Berrian, and Harvin on the field at the same time. Who would the defense key on??? It would be a case of them picking their poison. Even if #28 is on the sidelines you’d get close to the same thing with Chester in his place. Harvin has the potential to be the kind of explosive player that Adrian is now. It would remind me of the years that we had Robert Smith, Randy Moss, and Chris Carter….Now that was an offense! We wouldn’t need a superstar at quarterback or have to wait a couple of years for one to develop, just a guy to manage the game and pull the trigger. Worst case senario, we could use Percy to shore up our weak return game while he’s learning the ropes as a receiver.

by purplegrey on Mar 30, 2009 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

WR...

Wide Receivers almost always need at least one year to adjust to the NFL, which, while less than the average quarterback, is still one season. There are exceptions, even recently, of a wide out becoming very relevant in his first year (see: Eagles, Philadelphia). Then again, there are two examples of QBs doing quite well in their first year, too (see: Ryan, Matt and Flacco, Joe).

So again, it’s all about who you think has the most potential at the position with the most needs.

I understand needing a playmaker at receiver; that’s always a plus. Berrian, while not a top tier receiver, did quite well for himself. I think he develops even further.

Now if it’s a tackle you’re talking about, they almost always have a good shot at immediate impact. I’m all for a good tackle if it falls that way.

If Sanchez is there, I would not be upset if the Vikings took him. Not a bit.

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by Manimal on Mar 30, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As much as I hate the QB’s in this draft, I’d have to take him if he does fall. Just as a plan C. If Sage or Jackson both fail to work out somehow, we have Sanchez to fall back on. Booty hasn’t shown much in preseason, in fact he was downright awful, so I doubt we’d rely on him.

If we get Sanchez, I could see him and Booty battling it out for that third string position, with the loser getting put onto the practice squad.

Of course, in the real draft, if Sanchez was there, I doubt we’d take him.

by Frost on Mar 29, 2009 10:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

My issue with this is

that it takes TIME to develop a NFL QB. It’s not very often that a kid comes out of college and just “ramps up” a team.
By the time that this kid gets up to speed, we may have lost half of our starters in trades, free agency, etc.
If we don’t have a QB this year that can take over this team, we’ll just be looking at last year all over again, regardless of who we take in the draft.
Anybody agree with that?

by stilpony on Mar 29, 2009 10:31 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but starters can be replaced in subsequent drafts once the guy is matured as well. It’s not like we aren’t going to be getting any new players while he matures. Preetty much, as long as we keep our front 7, our defense will almost always make teams one dimensional.

by Frost on Mar 30, 2009 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Select Sanchez...

Then, trade him to acquire extra picks.

by Anthony Carter on Mar 30, 2009 9:03 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's interesting.

Sanchez would definitely draw some interest from other teams.

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by Andersklasen on Mar 30, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This makes a lot of sense

If Sanchez falls this far in reality and the Vikings take him there will be other teams wanting to trade. According to most of the mock draft boards I have been looking at have Offensive Linemen going early and often and a trend of recievers falling to the second round, so I see the Vikings picking up Sanchez and trading him for a 2009 second round pick and/or more then using and early pick to get a reciever and the later pick for a lineman.

by Tuba on Mar 30, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If...

If there are potential suitors for Sanchez after he’s selected by the Vikings, there will be suitors for the pick the moment the Eagles pass on Sanchez and the Vikings clock starts. Then and only then does a trade scenario make any sense. Trade the pick. The Vikings don’t gain any leverage by selecting and then trying to shop the player.

by LoveHate on Mar 30, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In continuation...

We would actually lose leverage, because we would be stuck with Sanchez if we don’t trade him, so we might be more inclined to take a lesser offer than what we would receive for the pick itself.

In AP I trust

by FarvaForTheVikings on Mar 30, 2009 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

10 or fewer teams, you mean

10 or fewer teams already better than the Vikings last year, no less. The other 21 would have drafted him already.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not necessairly

One of the teams who have a worse record than the Vikings may pick a lineman or something in the first round because they see a greater need at that position, but also need to fill a hole at the quarterback position and really want Sanchez, so they might give up their second pick or more to get him. Even if we do end up keeping Sanchez he could be used as trade potential later. Team are willing to give up picks even for back-up quarterbacks (See Vikings/Kelly Holcomb).

by Tuba on Mar 30, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't account for trading down

…so, you’re suggesting that the Vikings should draft Sanchez with pick #22 so that they may hope that one of the 21 teams with higher picks offer their second round choice for the guy the Vikings selected with their (wasted) first round choice?

Fortunately, I think the coaching and personnel staff will have their thinking helmets on so that this won’t even enter their frontal lobes.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Best possible way for this type of thing to happen would be finding a team like the Browns a few years ago, when they drafted Joe Thomas and then traded up for a second 1st rounder to pick up Brady Quinn. Better than drafting Sanchez and then trading him.

In AP I trust

by FarvaForTheVikings on Mar 30, 2009 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except

The Browns kept Thomas, and they had an earlier selection.

There is really no scenario in which it would make sense for the Vikings to draft Sanchez in the first round with the intent of trading him.

by KC Viking on Mar 31, 2009 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get that. We should only draft him if we plan on keeping him. Trading our pick is what I was talking about. I really don’t see it happening either.

In AP I trust

by FarvaForTheVikings on Mar 31, 2009 7:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What he meant was that we should find a team who likes Sanchez, but uses that first pick on a different position, and is then willing to trade for our pick BEFORE we select, obviously, to take Sanchez before somebody else does later.

by Frost on Mar 31, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great

another QB that won’t play to Vikings fans expectations right away and will be constantly beat over the head with criticism till he just can’t wait to go play somewhere else. ;)

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 30, 2009 10:05 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ahahahahaha! That will probably happen. Look at what we’ve done to Booty already, myself included, just based on his first pre-season.

by Frost on Mar 30, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And with 65 total votes...

Mark Sanchez gets picked by the Norseman!!!!!

Never mind the more than three hundred people who suggested Harvin be selected.

You had ten or more players on the original list, not all of which would be available at 22. Not NO ONE, but YOU didn’t think Sanchez would be available (not that he will be) at 22. He should have been on the list.

by LoveHate on Mar 30, 2009 11:22 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, then

If you can reserve your cynicism for a day or two, you can find out who our pick really is.

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by Gonzo on Mar 30, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's just how LoveHate is.

So, yeah, don’t worry about it.

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by Manimal on Mar 30, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, yeah...

Well you’re just a stupid face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by LoveHate on Mar 30, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

Lovehate… please refrain from allowing your 7 year old niece from logging onto to DN and calling people stupid face! hahaha

by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Apr 1, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cynical?

I am just saying that conducting a poll to disregard the previous days poll is a little odd. Especially when you consider that the total number of votes in the entire second poll (which you will now use to determine the player selected) is far short of the number of votes multiple players secured in the initial poll.

The claim that no one could have seen X happening doesn’t carry water in a game of speculation. It was my opinion that he should have been included or not or you (likely reserve the right to) make an executive judgement on the matter. Regardless of the pick, the process has been flawed.

But don’t speak to my comments, feel free to label me or name call.

by LoveHate on Mar 30, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on, man...

It’s just a silly poll on a website dedicated to sports. No one else is having a fit about it. Relax, speculate, and have fun here.

Don’t take it too seriously, amigo.

Visit:
http://www.vikingvigil.com

Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!

by Manimal on Mar 31, 2009 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh...?

Visit:
http://www.vikingvigil.com

Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!

by Manimal on Apr 1, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't worry...

Lovehate is quickly becoming everyone’s most hated blogger on this site

by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Apr 1, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone but Harvin.

by mjschaefer on Mar 30, 2009 12:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Why?

I’m really curious. It would be refreshing to learn about how normal or average a much-hyped NFL prospect is for once.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t want a diminutive receiver. His skill set in college doesn’t necessarily transfer to the NFL.

by mjschaefer on Mar 30, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No next Steve Smith or Mark Clayton (MIA) or Eric Metcalf for you?

Steve Smith is also short, and Mark Clayton was only 5’9". Harvin is compared to Eric Metcalf on nfldraftscout.com.

I agree with you that ideally, a receiver should be taller; however, a shorter receiver can be better, especially with the help of a good QB. The Vikes may not have that QB yet (or perhaps they do), but think of it this way: would you rather have Darrius Heyward-Bey (whose overall draft grade is almost a full point less, compares to Ashley Lelie) instead of Harvin purely based on size alone? It’s a tough question.

by KC Viking on Mar 30, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

His skill set in college doesn’t necessarily transfer to the NFL.

Like how the patron saint of gadget players, Reggie Bush, pretty much got drafted into what you’d think would be the perfect team for him and he’s still been hot-and-cold?

To be fair, Harvin’s considered more of WR-RB hybrid, while Bush is a RB-WR (if that makes any sense). Scouts say he’ll have the ability to run routes and rave about his release and cuts, although at Florida he mainly ran slants, slip screens, and occasionally just went deep. We’ll see.

Here are my main concerns:

1) As FootballOutsiders stated in their mock draft (projecting Brian Robiskie to the Bears after they traded down to the late first): “Percy Harvin has the higher grade at the moment, but taking an SEC wide receiver who didn’t play in a pro-style offense (or at least wasn’t used in a particularly pro-style way) is a move any experienced GM should be able to sniff out by now.” The bust rate on these types of players is quite high.

2) Durability. He has a bit of a history of getting dinged up.

3) The Vikings don’t run that many 3-WR sets. Whether that’s due to the scheme, the fraying offensive line, or whatever, they just don’t. Maybe if they took Harvin in the first they’d feature it more, I don’t know.

4) People always throw the return game when talking about Harvin, but he never returned kicks at Florida.

All this isn’t to say Harvin will be lousy. I have no idea if he will or if he won’t. I do think players like this upsides tend to be exagerrated.

In the end, I’d like to see them pick up a nice slot receiver, and Harvin initially would seem to profile best in the slot to start out. But considering he’d have quite a learning curve to pick up pro-style routes, I wonder if taking a fast slot guy with marginal upside (i.e. 3rd WR only) but who has experience running good, relatively sophisticated routes (someone like Penn State’s Deon Butler, as an example) much later in the draft might be better. Particularly if that would allow them to shore up their line and maybe grab a corner early in the draft. Guess we’ll see.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Retort to jianfu comments

1) He is more than just a WR. He could line up at RB and KR/PR. Just because a guy doesn’t play on a pro style O doesn’t mean he won’t play well in the pros. The guy is a play maker and a football player. He’ll be just fine.

2)So did AP. He seemed to work out just fine. And every time Harvin has been hurt, he comes back into the lineup and produces. This is in the SEC where they (supposedly) have the best defenses and everyone knows Harvin is getting the ball.

3) Like you say, who knows and this is something that can and will simply work itself out.

4)So because Florida already has one of the best returners in the college game (Brandon Jones) that means Harvin wouldn’t be able to do it or somehow couldn’t learn? All you do is catch and run. It is essentially playing RB but he is at full speed before anyone can get close to him. Again, he’ll be fine.

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 31, 2009 1:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's 5'10

all of two inches shorter than 6’. Its not like he is a mini might. Derrick Mason was the #1 for Baltimore and he is the same height, so is Lee Evans, Steve Smith (shorter actually), Devin Hester, Lavernous Coles, Eddie Royal, Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne is only 2" taller, Ted Ginn JR, Wes Welker (shorter), I could keep going, but each of these guys lead there teams in receiving and it already looks like a good list of guys. 10 of the first 16 teams alphabetically have #1 guys under 6’ tall.

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 31, 2009 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lance Moore (shorter), Steve Smith (Giants), Jerricho Cotchery, DeSean Jackson, Hines Ward, Issac Bruce, Bobby Engram, Torry Holt, Donnie Avery, Ike Hillard, Santana Moss, Antwaan Randle-El. Guess I could keep going. That would be 22 WRs who are 6’ or less (most of them are less as I pointed out all of those who are 6’). If all you are knocking Harvin for is his height, you got to start seeing the forest from the trees.

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 31, 2009 1:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many of these would be worth a first round pick? Torry Holt?

by mjschaefer on Mar 31, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also Reggie Wayne.

by mjschaefer on Mar 31, 2009 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steve Smith.
Greg Jennings
Hines Ward

Just to name a few more

by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Mar 31, 2009 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most of these guys caught 60 pass, had a 1000+ yards and duoble digit TDs. You don’t want to spend a first round pick on that?

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 31, 2009 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is no doubt we need another good option at WR but using a 1st round pick on Harvin is a major gamble. One we shouldn’t be taking.

Look at these receivers again. Most of them are not first round picks. They were drafted and coached into solid #2 receivers. In my estimation you shouldn’t be drafting a wide receiver in the first round unless he’s going to be a slam dunk. Seriously there are a ton of WR busts in the first round. There are safer ways to use this pick and that will benefit this team immediately.

Crabtree is the only slam-dunk.

Florida wide receivers traditionally don’t do well in the NFL. Harvin doesn’t have a natural position.

Basically when I see Harvin I see a more phyiscally talented Ted Ginn Jr. and a less polished receiver. I’d rather draft a wide receiver later (3, 4, 5 rounds) then use a pick on a guy that probably won’t help us next year.

I was scared we were going to take Desean Jackson last year with our first round pick before we made an outstanding trade. Jackson could turn into an elite talent, but I’m really doubting it.

by mjschaefer on Mar 31, 2009 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He wasn’t super great last year. Didn’t he only have something like 2 TDs? Maybe it was 4. I don’t understand where the comparisons are coming from. When I think of DeSean Jackson, I think of A) Good ST Returner and B) Him dropping the ball before the endzone against Dallas.

He did have a remarkable catch against the Cardinal’s though, for that TD. That was some good concentration there.

by Frost on Apr 1, 2009 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Others see favorable comparisons

DeSean Jackson has more catches and yards (and return yardage) in his rookie year than Sidney Rice, our 2nd rounder 2 years before, has in his 3-year career…more YScrm than ROY Dwayne Bowe or Marvin Harrison or Willie Gault had in their rookie campaigns…more YScrm than Braylon Edwards had in either of his first two NFL seasons…more YScrn than SB MVP Santonio Holmes has had in any one of his 3 NFL seasons…more YScrm and catches than some guy named Larry Fitzgerald had in his rookie year…and so on.

I suppose he could be the next Michael Clayton and never be this good again, although the dropoff in some of his numbers probably had to do with a QB carousel and spreading the ball around more (and the fact that he has never started 13 games in a season since, perhaps due to injuries).

It’s not DeSean’s fault that Philly’s offensive scheme tends to throw lots of comebacks and quick outs to him (which don’t tend to result in TDs) rather than going downfield.

by KC Viking on Apr 2, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watch. After all this, both these guys will be there at their pick in the SECOND round.

Not likely, but last year, Desean Jackson was a better WR prospect than Harvin, and Brohm was a better QB prospect than Sanchez, and BOTH those guys were there in the mid second still.

by jianfu on Mar 30, 2009 10:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope you're right

…because that would be AWESOME!

by KC Viking on Mar 31, 2009 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If that is the case, then Trading down would be the Best

if we could get 2 additional 2nd round picks then that would give us 3 2nd rounders to pick up our O-Linemen, a WR and possible a QB who, at that pick wouldnt be expected to start immediatly. giving him a chance to develop into an eventual starter.

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Mar 31, 2009 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here the teams with multiple 2nd round picks:

New England (34, 47, 58)
Cleveland (36, 50)
Miami (44, 56)
NY Giants (45, 60)

Now, I think there’s a couple different versions of the draft trade value chart teams (supposedly) use. According to this one:

The Vikings’ #22 is worth 780 points.

Here are the breakdowns of the picks listed above:
New England (560, 430, 320)
Cleveland (540, 400)
Miami (460, 340)
NYG (450, 300)

So according to this, a Giants trade can be ruled out, as the Vikings would not only give up value AND move down. Likewise, Cleveland shouldn’t bundle their picks (their combined value is 940). New England doesn’t strike me as the type of team that would bother moving up. Miami’s 800 total matches well with the Vikings pick value. But then you’re talking about not picking until #44.

All that being said, sometimes teams throw all this out the window. Carolina gave the Eagles their 2009 2nd rounder, their 2009 4th rounder, AND their 2010 first rounder for Philly’s 2009 first rounder. That’s a lot of excess value for the Eagles. If the Vikings get an offer like that, then they ought to take it and ask questions later.

by jianfu on Mar 31, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take

a deal similar to what the Eagles got. Lot of value in that.

by vikingfuture8816 on Mar 31, 2009 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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