Pat Williams, Kevin Williams, and StarCaps: Hey, We Haven't Talked About It In a While
by Gonzo on May 13, 2009 10:21 PM CDT
in Vikings
69 comments
It's been a while since we talked about the impending court case for Pat and Kevin Williams (among others) that is coming up next month because of the whole StarCaps thing from late in the 2008 season. Since it gives us an opportunity to talk about something not related to our quarterback situation, here's a bit of news on it.
Apparently the Williams Wall is going to subpoena the Buffalo Bills in what appears to be a rather interesting allegation.
Minnesota Vikings defensive linemen Pat and Kevin Williams plan to subpoena the Buffalo Bills to produce documents about a dietary supplement that they took, which caused them to receive a four-game suspension from the NFL.
. . .
According to the St. Paul Pioneer Press, Peter Ginsberg, the attorney representing the Williamses in their lawsuit, said during a hearing last week that StarCaps were “freely distributed” in the Bills locker room and that “a number” of Buffalo players used StarCaps. Pat Williams played for the Bills from 1997 to 2003. Ginsberg did not say who allegedly dispensed the supplement and to which players.
The Bills issued a statement denying the allegation through Scott Berchtold, team vice president of communications. It read: “We have never heard these allegations, and we are not aware of anyone representing the Bills distributing StarCaps, an over-the-counter weight-loss supplement, to players. These allegations were made by an attorney and not by any players."
Well, this should be interesting. If it comes out that the Bills had, indeed, been distributing StarCaps to their players and either a) nobody tested positive or b) nobody got suspended for testing positive, then it sure would make it hard to impose this bogus suspension on the Williams Wall or any of the Saints players that were involved with this whole thing.
The article goes on to say that the federal judge is expected to order both sides into settlement talks. In my opinion, the only acceptable settlement should be that the NFL admits that this is a bunch of crap and everyone should just forget about it.
But I'm biased.
Trial is set for 15 June, if there isn't a settlement hammered out prior to that. We'll definitely be keeping an eye on this one.
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You would think it would make a difference, but you never know when it comes to these drug policy. Hopefully it will help clear their names.
In AP I trust
Brett Favre should go die somwhere
by FarvaForTheVikings on May 13, 2009 10:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing a compromise and 2 games.
by jjstraka on May 13, 2009 10:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No Compromises
Williams Wall should fight it out. If Goodell is gonna start taking the Superbowl overseas, he deserves this punch in the gut!
by LAviking on May 13, 2009 11:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree
Screw the NFL. They’re the ones in the wrong and should admit it.
by purplegrey on May 14, 2009 12:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Just take the damn suspension already and move on...
Nothing good will come of this as it is only delaying the inevitable and more that likely it’s starting to agitate Goodell a little. Not exactly a person that you wanna piss off if you play in the NFL.
The whole Bills distributing the pills to players seems to be a story that their lawyer pulled out of his ass. Pat Williams hasn’t said anything publicly about it, and in fact no player has ever mentioned it happening, only some lawyer. And that still doesn’t help Kevin Williams because he was never with the Bills.
All in all it sounds like a load of crap and the judge will see through the BS and the Williams Bros. will have to accept the consequences like men.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 14, 2009 12:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...
Obviously your bias against the Vikings is not allowing you to understand what this actually means…
First of all, the Williamses are fighting for their reputations, there will be no compromise and no surrender.
Second of all, you haven’t obviously paid much attention to the story at all, just that you’re hoping for their suspension. Neither player has commented publicly on the subject since the judge set an extension. They’ve chosen to keep their dirty laundry out of the public eye, and I have no qualms about that what so ever.
As for the Bills distributing the pill, and how it would help Kevin, if the Bills did it, and nobody was suspended, then is it really a stretch that Pat told Kevin about StarCaps because it was safe? Nope! Not really. Either way, if this story is true, regardless of whether it came from the lawyer or the players, then it gives the Williamses a bit more leverage over the league.
by Eric The Viking on May 14, 2009 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks but I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent individual and I am very well aware of what this all means...
That being said, I highly doubt being accused of using StarCaps would damage their reputations that bad, if at all. Not like they were caught injecting each other with steroids before a game or anything. Also, if they were so worried about protecting their images then they should have just worked the damn weight off instead of being lazy fat asses that had to rely on a (unsafe) pill to keep them below a certain weight. They’re PRO athletes for christ’s sake, if they can’t motivate themselves to stay in shape, especially when mandated by their contracts, then there really is no hope for them.
Also, I couldn’t care less if they get suspended or not, the Bears and Vikings don’ play until later in the season. And besides, it still shouldn’t significantly affect the Viking’s final record. If they lose those games because 2 of their D-Lineman are out then the team isn’t nearly as good as you guys seem to think it is. Granted they are both very good players, but no player should be able to affect a team that bad.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 14, 2009 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only "fairly intelligent" huh?
It shows. I’d like to see you call either of these guys a “lazy fat ass” to their face. Not only are these guys fighting for their reputations, they are also fighting for the rights of every other player in the league. They are fighting for the rights of every Minnesotan employee. The state of Minnesota has a law that forbids an employer from disciplining an employee for taking a “legal” drug. There is nothing that irks me more than a fan of an opposing team coming to this site and falsely claim to have intelligence.
"Skol pa fiskande"
by NobleSavage on May 14, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fairly intelligent is obviously a lot smarter than you
Judging by that comment. Oh yea you’re a real tough guy, easiest thing to say that requires no thought. Sure I’d gladly tell them to their faces that they’re lazy fat asses if they can’t maintain their weight at the risk of losing thousands (possibly even millions) of dollars. I would also gladly tell them that it’s dumb to take ANY supplements without checking with the league first to make sure you don’t end up in a situation like this. And I highly doubt they consider Vikings players to be Minnesota employees considering absolutely NONE of their salaries come from the government. They are a part of the NFL and therefore they have to abide by their rules, even if they don’t always make perfect sense.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 15, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, bud. So if you ever get pulled over by a Cop who says you went 50 over the limit when you were only going 5, I want to hear how you just bent over and took it from him. My guess is you probably wouldn’t and you’d fight the damn ticket. From what I’ve read that’s basically what’s going on here. The League is saying they took this substance to mask steroid use, all because an ingredient, which ISNT on the label by the way, was secretly added to it.
I know that if I was a player and was threatened to be bogusly suspended for a quarter of the season (I’m pretty sure that means they lose a quarter of their pay that year too), I’d be fighting it to the death as well. Not to mention that’s a couple million dollars going down the drain.
And I’m pretty sure that they ARE in shape. They didn’t need to take the pills to stay in shape, just to maintain a weight clause in their contract. I’m guessing it’s a little bit harder than you think it is, or else they wouldn’t have been using Starcaps.
by Frost on May 14, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm not a very good comparison
but since you brought it up I’ll go with it. Whether you are going 50 over the limit or 5 over, the fact remains that you are in the wrong and that you deserve a ticket if you get pulled over. Simple as that. And I highly, highly doubt that the StarCaps makers added secret ingredients, they’re not trying to hide things from their consumers, that’s how they lose business. And regardless, the league says that substance is banned so the onus is on the players to make sure (with the league) that whatever supplements they’re taking won’t get them in trouble.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 15, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it’s a very good comparison. Because, technically, yes, the Williams broke the law (speeding in my example), since they tested positive for the Butemadine. BUT, they weren’t doing what’s been accused (Going 50 over) and are fighting that in the court.
And you go ahead and highly doubt that the makers added secret ingredients, but the fact is that THEY DID. They didn’t tell anybody, and they didn’t put the ingredient on the list on the bottle. How was anyone supposed to know it’s in there? But the league didn’t say the substance was banned UNTIL this case. They knew about it, but they kept it under their hat and didn’t tell anyone or take 5 minutes to put it on the list of banned substances.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
35 Percent Lacks All Credibility
While I can appreciate your advocacy for laziness, a lack of integrity, not standing up for your principles and rights, and for doing the bare minimum it takes to get by or get over (35%), it’s my sincere hope and expectation that a Vikings player has a considerably higher standard than yours. Moreover, that a Vikings player have about 3 times as much spine so that they can find the integrity and guts to stand up for themselves when they’re in the right. Those are the sort of examples that I want young folks to appreciate and be inspired by, not your 35% philosophy.
If you could care less whether or not the Williams Wall gets suspended, then clearly the choice to open your pie-hole here and now has nothing to do with the topic, and makes your actual motivation suspect. Petty maliciousness like yours is easily seen through.
I’m sure your words carry a lot more weight with your fellow Bears fans, but doubt that anyone here is going to take them seriously.
by DCPurple on May 14, 2009 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all the 35% thing is a joke, from a show...
That’s why I put the name next to it and the quotes around it. Second of all, I am a Bears fan first but I’m still a big fan of the sport so don’t think you guys are special and I intentionally come on to bash the team, because I don’t.
And whether or not you all consider them to be in the “right”, the fact of the matter is that they took a drug that contained a substance that was prohibited by the league. Doesn’t matter if they’ve been taking it their whole lives, the fact remains that they weren’t smart enough to check with their team trainers/anyone from the league to make sure that they wouldn’t get caught up in a situation like this.
And I agree, I definitely want young folks to look at these two guys who had to take supplements to lose weight because they were too damn lazy to keep it off on their own (that’s sarcasm by the way, I noticed any and all humor is lost on you so thought I’d explain it for you).
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 15, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ignoramus
First of all the 35% thing is a joke, from a show…
That’s why I put the name next to it and the quotes around it.
We call that technique, a ‘quote’. It’s usually used to show that someone else said something, to give credit where’s due, when it’s placed at the bottom of a message in a sig. Between your quotes, and your opening statement;
Just take the damn suspension already and move on…
Nothing good will come of this as it is only delaying the inevitable and more that likely it’s starting to agitate Goodell a little. Not exactly a person that you wanna piss off if you play in the NFL.
It really looked as if you’re the sort of person who doesn’t care about doing what’s right, and was pissing and moaning because other people do care. Well, if you don’t care, that’s your issue and you’re welcome to it… but tolerating your whining about others giving a damn, on a Viking site, is not going to happen.
Especially when it’s clear that you would love nothing more than to see the Vikings fail or get mud smeared on them. You see, we’re well aware that you’re not a Vikes fan, that you’re just a troll over here trying to stir up crap. You have zero credibility, you’ve earned nothing with us, and your statements ensure that it stays that way.
And umm… we are special :) . And so is our team. And you’re not. :)
How’s that for humor?
Finally, you don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to the Star Caps situation. The Williams Wall did try to check with the league, their calls were not returned, they got no answer. The NFL knew that there was an unlisted,banned substance in Star Caps and deliberately chose not to inform any of the players because it wasn’t in their contract with the NFLPA that they had to. You’ve proven that you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about when you start spewing your ignorance about, which reduces your credibility far below zero. You’re the sort of person who creates misinformation and rumor, causing unnecessary trouble and grief based on falsity if not outright lies.
Ad hominem, you betcha.
by DCPurple on May 17, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The More Times I Read That, the Hotter I Got
Sure, I’m morally outraged, and that condition can lead to mistakes (like typing “their” instead of “there”). It’s human to make mistakes, especially when one gets emotional; however, after further review, the opening “Nothing good will come of this” is a point I feel deserves a very significant rebuttal.
When you believe you are right but others say you are wrong, you are often obliged for the greater good of society to stand up and defend yourself, regardless of whom you piss off. At the founding of this country, the patriots did not say, “Let’s not piss off George the Third—he’s got way more guns than we do.” During the civil rights movement, Dr. King decided if the duly enacted law said some people can’t eat in a restaurant because of their skin color, then that law is wrong, so let’s violate the law and accept the written punishment under the law, but let’s make one hell of a stink so that people will give that law further consideration and fix it.
If the NFL steroids policy is saying it’s okay to punish the innocent (just because that’s what it says), then let’s fix that.
If I read a product label that is wrong, then that label needs to be changed. Why wasn’t that label on Starcaps changed? For one reason, the NFL didn’t have the balls to stand up for what was right and let other people know that the label was a lie. Sure, they have a football league to run here, but that doesn’t mean they can assign every responsibility they do not like to shoulder by passing it on to others.
Justice is sculptured as a statue holding a balance scale and a sword, and sometimes blindfolded.
She should be blind to how important the people who are doing the talking in court claim to be. She should not be blind when she starts swinging the sword. If the scale isn’t weighing true, someone needs to point that out loudly and get the damn thing fixed.
We all make mistakes. The Persian rug makers intentionally added false stitches in their elegant creations as a sign to Allah that they humbly believed He alone was perfect. On the other hand, we should not just accept a mistake in the rules because it has somehow established tenure.
No. Let’s NOT just pay the damn tea tax and move on. Let’s dump the tea in the harbor. (But, if we do that stunt the next time, let’s do so openly; let’s not dress up as Native Americans when we do it.) Let’s go to court, state our name and case proudly, and let the chips fall where they may.
We now interrupt business as usual for an important annnouncement: Justice is being ill-served, therefore, DO something about it.
There should NOT be the same suspensions given out for taking diet pills as for taking anabolic steroids. If you don’t think so, we’ll see you in court.
by Elgar on May 14, 2009 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Boom! rec'ed it!
Excellent post, Elgar. Couldn’t agree more. Call me a blind optimist if you like, but there’s a very good chance the courts rule in favor of the players in this. The league’s position is very shaky and Goodell knows it. The “players are solely responsible for what goes into their bodies” line won’t win the day for the NFL in this case. The league handled this whole thing very poorly and the courts will see that.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by satchmo26 on May 14, 2009 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The League
knew that Starcaps contained a banned substance that was not on the label long before the Vikings and Saints players took it. What did teh league do about it? Nothing. The Leauge produces a list of products that have been tested and are known to the league to be safe, and also produce a list of substances that are known to the league to contain banned substances. Why wasn’t Starcaps added to this second list? What Culpability does the League have for proactively testing Starcaps, but not telling any one the results? These are issues for a court to decide, and I feal that there is a strong chance that they will find in favor of the players.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on May 14, 2009 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am confused??
I thought the only press worthy information about the Vikings had to include #4?! Is there actual news coming out about the Vikes that is actually noteworthy?? Oh god I just realized I now officially part of the problem.
MY BAD!!
by JATUT on May 14, 2009 7:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I don’t see how Starcaps being distributed, and nobody testing positive, helps them. If anything doesn’t it prove that they were masking steroid use? Unless the Butemadine was added after Pat’s tenure with the Bills. I don’t know exactly when the stuff was added, but I thought it was in the early 2000s.
by Frost on May 14, 2009 9:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If the Williams boys were Packers...
Would your views change?
Would you be hoping the NFL just forgot about it?
by sabbath999 on May 14, 2009 10:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It depends
on whether I’d read the articles about it. Usually I skip over non-Viking related articles unless the headlines sound juicy. If I read enough to understand the situation as I do now, and the Williams boys were Packers, I’d be arguing that the league needs to let it go.
Unless we played them in those first 4 games. Then they’d definitely have to be suspended.
by Frost on May 14, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair is Fair
No. The NFL knew there was a banned substance in Star-Caps and deliberately chose not to report it or inform the players about it. All it took was some functionary opening up a document and adding “Star-Caps” to the list. Too much for them because it wasn’t in the contract that they had to do it, so they didn’t. Fair enough… until they then decide to prosecute players for using Star-Caps.
That’s an injustice, and it doesn’t smell any better when it’s smeared on green than it does when it’s smeared on purple. It’s also a form of entrapment. The only difference is that if it happened to the Packers (or Bears, or Bucs, or Jags, or Dolphins, or any other team), I might not even know about it because I only follow the Vikes.
One of the things we don’t know is how many other players across the NFL were using Star-Caps, but never got pulled in for a test at the right time, or just decided to quietly make those bottles disappear now that they know it’s a problem.
by DCPurple on May 15, 2009 6:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the main crux is this
star caps didnt list the ingredients.
AND
the NFL didnt put it on the banned list.
so to their knowledge, they didnt do anything wrong.
period.
and it was obviously used so that they could lose weight, it’s a diuretic! and off ALL people in the league, you really think big pat did steroids? he’s a fat ass.
so it’s just dumb by the nfl to keep on with this, they should just admit they’re wrong and let them off the hook
period.
cromscorner.blogspot.com
by Crom on May 14, 2009 12:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
uhm
First off I love Conan. You should check out the Soundtrack to that movie, I use Riddle of Steel in my workout playlist.
so to their knowledge, they didnt do anything wrong.
They knew, I knew, PT’s know, and for you to think they didn’t, means you’re pretty naive.
you really think big pat did steroids?
Common uses of steroids are to lengthen a players career, help heal from injury, to become stronger, and to help prevent injury. To think that someone doesn’t due steroids because
he’s a fat assis pretty silly. Just because someone does steroids does not mean they look like guys from Bodysculpting competitions. The only way to get that physique, like King Cole or Arnold, is to heavily use steroids in 3 month cycles. Many athletes use lower doses because appearance and too much muscle growth would slow them down and draw unwanted attention.
so it’s just dumb by the nfl
to what? to enforce rules. I can see why you would be angry, but they broke the rule which says Players are responsible for what they put into their bodies. In the player contract clause it says that the NFL is not responsible for finding out which products contained banned substances nor the companies. Plain and simple, the Williams broke this rule. I am not saying the rule is fair, but if even that is not clear to you then there is no chance for intellectual conversation.
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
O, Those Slings and Arrows Caught in the Tangled Web
What I’ve read to this point alleges that the NFL knew (from earlier testing as a result of a separate, previous incident) that Starcaps contained Butenadine, although that ingredient has never been listed on the product label.
The NFL decision following the discovery was not to inform the players of this knowledge. Apparently, testimony which has been given by the administrative doctor in a hearing indicated that this was done to prevent the league from getting into a potential lawsuit with Starcaps’ maker and/or to to avoid taking any further responsibility for protecting the NFL players. Either way, that would mean the NFL decided to protect the secret of another business apparently involved in nefarious activity rather than get involved in protecting the health interests of its players, the fans, or the public at large, who might be taking this product in ignorance.
That would be a pretty picture on an NFL promotional billboard, wouldn’t it? Please imagine a great ostrich, it’s head below the surface, its feathers emblazened with the NFL logo, and the driving slogan, cast in a flaming, giant font, streaming across the sky above: “Just say I don’t know to drugs!”
A trial could publicly illuminate that point, so now they face one of those decisions as to whether it is nobler in the mind to be boiled in oil or to be burnt at the stake. To settle or not to settle? That is the question.
As devil’s advocate, I suggest they hire Brett Favre to start throwing footballs every day at a local high school as a diversion. It’s what any smart coward would do, and based on the previous conduct, that’s how the tree leans.
by Elgar on May 14, 2009 12:37 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Fine Points
and stated in a cogent and forceful manner. +10
by Odin on May 14, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you forget that in the NFL's testing policy
it states that it is up to the players to find out if anything they are taking has banned substances.
So yes the NFL knew that Starcaps was against policy, but it is not the NFL’s responsibility to go and test every product. It was widely known before 2008 that Starcaps contained Bumetanide.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3763242
They weren’t using Starcaps for Weight Loss, they were using it because it masks steroid use. This whole thing stinks. Starcaps isn’t the best diuretic either. I am a pharmacy student and I know this, so I am sure their sports trainer knew this as well.
I am a Bears fan and if I found out that Tommie Harris or Harrison used Steroids I’d want them to be banned for a year with loss of wage. I’m sick of pro athletes getting free passes for cheating. That’s why I don’t even watch baseball that much anymore, Pro American athletes should be tested more like cycling athletes.
/endrant
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 14, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, for sure. Pat Williams is a ’roider. Just look at his super-cut body.
Please. I highly doubt they were masking steroids. Had that not been posted on ESPN, would you have realized it was found out in ‘07? My guess is no. It was NOT widely known before 2008, unless you read those science journals. I sure as hell didn’t hear about it before this case with 5 players. You didn’t either. And neither did the players. The league didn’t tell anybody, even though they knew.
by Frost on May 14, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you make assumptions about me and the players in your favor
I do read Science journals. Sports trainers did know it had this substance in it and there were many other diuretics that did not have this substance in it.
I have many friends which are PT’s and they all knew about it even though they don’t train anyone in the NFL. I’m guessing your job isn’t involved with the medical or training field.
If you say the players and the trainers did not know about it then you are a bigger fool than I thought.
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that’s good for you, I suppose. But I sure as hell never heard anything about it before this case. And no, I’m not in any medical or training field. And if what you’re saying is true, then I doubt the judge would even be making a case out of this. It’d just be open and shut, Williams suspended.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ll see what happens in Court, but I have no faith in the American Legal system. That’s another story though.
Either way Goodell will be pissed, so it may come to fruition against the Vikings at a later date.
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goodell can suck the Vikings’ big toe. ‘Sides, it isn’t the organization that’s causing this to drag on, it’s the players themselves. So he can give Kevin and Pat the cold shoulder all he wants.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The standard in this country is that we presume people innocent until proven quilty by due process. No evidence has ever been produced that either Williams has taken steroids—not even testimony from the psychic hotline has been presented to back up such an assertion. Even having bumetanide in your blood has not been presumed to indicate the masking of of steroids under the NFL policy in eight documented cases where a doctor prescription was involved. So, at least eight NFL players knew full well they were taking a banned substance, but were excused from suspension because they had a note from a doctor. Your position suggests that people who have demonstrated that the list of ingredients on the product they had taken would lead them to believe their was no banned substance in it are presumed to be cheaters, but those who hired professionals to write their justifications are presumed to be innocent. Sounds like justice in a banana republic where the verdict all depends on whom you pay to get the absolution.
by Elgar on May 14, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't so hastily jump to the "masking steroids" conclusion, pal
I seriously doubt you have taken the time to really review the details behind this. There’s no indication anywhere that they were trying to mask steroids. As a Saints fan, I’ve followed this very closely. Deuce McAllister (one of the most trustworthy and ethical people to ever play this game) had this product tested three years ago and the league OKed it. At that time, the banned substance was NOT in Starcaps. It’s been widely reported that he was trying to get back to a weight last summer that would take some stress off his surgically-repaired knee and enable him to perform at his previously high level. Sadly, it didn’t work. He was NOT using steroids. How do I know for sure? I don’t, but then again you don’t know that he was. This has been so poorly reported by the press, that people like you who don’t bother to fully read and understand the matter just wrongly jump to the “masking steroids” conclusion.
The other two Saints, Will Smith and Charles Grant, have had weight management issues in the past and were just trying to make their weight clauses. I’m not condoning the use of a weight-loss product to shed pounds quickly before camp. I just believe these guys made a poor choice in managing their weight and chose a bogus product with unlisted ingredients to quickly make up for it. They don’t deserve to be suspended and Goodell and the NFL are just plain wrong. The main thing that burns me about the league’s position is that they repeatedly say they sent out a warning alerting players to not endorse this product. How the hell is that the same as warning them to not ingest the product? The league’s position is bogus and without merit. I hope all involved are able to win this case and clear their names. Roger Goodell is a tyrant and completely unworthy of respect.
By the way, I sincerely hope the Bears crash and burn this season.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by satchmo26 on May 14, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's good to hear
from a Saints fan on this subject. And the circumstances underwhich those players were cought up in this mess, only serves to reinforce the belevable notion that the Williams’ were using the Starcaps to lose weight. not to mask Steroids. Also, any player that Uses Butenadine to mask steroids deserves to get caught, since that is on the banned list, they would have to know that that is being tested for as well as the steroids. Which just further leads to the point that these players were, and are unfairly being targeted by an unjust and unfair league boss tyrant. I gareanty that if there had been a packer or patriots player caught up in this, we would never have heard of starcaps as the leauge would have quitely informed the players that Starcaps was being added to the list and told not to take it any more.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on May 14, 2009 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd hate the Bears too
for beating my team the past 3 years, not to mention the NFC Championship game
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure that, over the last 3 years, the Bears and Vikes are 3-3 against each other.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was replying to the Saints fan. I thought he was a Saints fan at least.
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The hilarious thing
Is that the Bear fans seem to think that we’re squirming over this.
We could start Venus and Serena Williams. . .or Robin Williams. . .or Montel Williams. . .or Hank Williams (Sr., Jr., or III) at defensive tackle for the first four games of the year, and still win this division with little to no trouble.
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by Gonzo on May 14, 2009 5:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nobody said they’re smart. What I love is how somebody said that if the William’s Wall had been suspended for the last 4 games, the Bears would have made it to the playoffs. Newsflash, the Bears COULD have made it to the playoffs, but they just couldn’t beat the Texans.
by Frost on May 14, 2009 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you beat
the NYG 20-19 and the Detroit Lions only 20-16.
So in effect if you couldn’t contain the run games (which the Williams Wall is very efficient at, although I don’t know how deep your bench is) then you could have very easily lost those games.
It was finally up to the Bears though to beat the Texans though.
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could have
But we didn’t.
And that’s why we were 10-6 and your team was 9-7.
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by Gonzo on May 15, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know!
and your team has made so many improvements this offseason it’s scary!
I really hope they get Brett Favre, he’d definitely make them a Super Bowl Contender! I mean all of your fans want him so badly, even your Governor!
I hope that the Bears don’t even show up this year, I mean have they made any moves this offseason to make themselves better?
you’re right to say the Vikings will easily win this Division. I mean last year the Vikes beat the Lions 12-10 and 20-16. The Bears were only able to beat the Lions 27-23 (with a backup QB) and 34-7
God the Vikings are so good, it overwhelms me. Truly you are the class of the division.
/sarcasm
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, they struggled against the Lions, but, for some reason, didn’t really struggle against the Bears. Does that mean the Lions are better than the Bears?! No, it doesn’t. So it doesn’t make sense for you to say that beating the Lions in close games makes the Vikes not as good as the Bears are.
Have there been a ton of additions this year for us? No, there hasn’t been. There really could be no big upgrade except at the QB position, and we are apparently set with Rosenfels and Jackson. Either one should be, at the very least, servicable enough to lead us to the post-season, improved Bears or not.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure we didn’t have Pat Williams in the Giants game, and we handled their running game just fine. And as for the Lions, it wasn’t the run game that made the game close. It was their passing game.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could start Venus and Serena Williams. . .or Robin Williams. . .or Montel Williams. . .or Hank Williams (Sr., Jr., or III) at defensive tackle for the first four games of the year, and still win this division with little to no trouble.
You seriously overestimate your teams abilities. You can’t realistically expect the Vikings to do any better than they did last year considering there were no real upgrades, and they didn’t address the QB position, the most important position in ALL sports. The Vikings have a potential top 10 defense, but the only legitimate option on offense is AP. The combination of Rosenfails/T-Jax/Booty throwing to Berrian/Rice/Harvin doesn’t strike fear into the heart of ANY defense in the entire league. IMO 10-6 would be a best case scenario but don’t be surprised to see a drop off from last season.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 15, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Throwing stones at glass houses
Please, don’t try and talk about our offense scaring a defense when your’s only has Cutler and Forte. Peterson is more intimidating to a defense than those two combined. And I wouldn’t trash Berrian if I were you, he beat you guys pretty bad last year.
Of course I wish our QB situation was more optimal, but I’ve got faith that Jackson or Sage will win us enough games to repeat as NFC North Champs. It sure looks to be an easy schedule.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one's throwing stones...
I’m simply pointing out the fact that you can’t expect to “win the division with little to no trouble”, especially considering how close it was last year. I expect the Bears to win the division the same way you expect the Vikings to and the cheeseheads expect the Packers to. And yes I’ll agree Berrian had a big play against but honestly, after having him on our team for a few seasons we’ve (Bears fans) all come to figure out that he isn’t a #1 receiver. He’s a very good 2 at best, which puts you guys in the same position as us except we have the better QB (by a country mile). So say what you will, and I’m not trying to tell you how to root for your team but don’t be too surprised if you see a let down from a team that hasn’t much anything to add talent that was a marginal playoff team last year at best.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 15, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t remember saying it’d be a walk in the park to a division title. Obviously it’s not going to be. We aren’t the Patriots here. But I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to imagine us taking the division, even with the upgrades the Bears and Pack have made.
I wouldn’t say they were a marginal playoff team at all. Obviously we had issues in the second half of the playoff game, but after starting out 1-3, and battling all the way back to 10-6, and still making the playoffs, I think that’s some serious contention. That really doesn’t happen all that often. But you’re right, we didn’t add much this offseason.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I don't know how
you consider two games against the Bears, two with the Packers and games against Seattle, Baltimore, New York (Giants), Arizona, Pittsburgh, Carolina, and an up and coming team in San Francisco to be an easy schedule. Even the Lions gave you guys trouble last year so I wouldn’t take anyone lightly if I were you.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 15, 2009 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty simple. Peterson just demolishes the Bears, and he’s our main feature. He can easily put the team on his shoulders and power us to wins over the Bears. Plus, new QB or not, I’m liking our defense’s chances against your offense, and almost any in the league. The Packers also have trouble with Peterson. As long as the QB doesn’t throw a couple interceptions, we should be okay. Assuming the ST is fixed and not porous.
We’ll have to see how Seattle is, I’m not that scared of them. Yes, they have Houshmenzadeh, but, again, I like our defense against that offense. The Giants will probably be a struggle, so that’s one game. Arizona is a toss up. Depends on which team shows up to play. Whether it’s the playoff Cardinals or the version we played last year and killed. Pittsburgh is going to be another tough game, of course. It’ll be a defensive slugfest. Carolina we handled pretty well last year.
Baltimore’s defense isn’t quite as scary now. It’s still good and all, but I don’t think their offense is going to do too much against us, so it’ll probably be like the Pittsburgh game. San Francisco, up and coming or not, should be a victory. They aren’t that scary either.
And of course, we’re playing the Browns, the Lions, and the Bengals. Yes, yes, we played the Lions close last year. Either way, we picked up wins. And like I said in another post, you can’t use the Lions as a measuring stick, because even though we played them close, we blew some teams out, the Bears included, so using that logic the Bears must be worse than the Lions.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we’ll just see about that. How about you just come back after you beat us on the field. Right now, your words are pretty hollow.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ROFL
the phrase is people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones
not throwing stones at glass houses.
you’re pretty funny.
If you want to crown em...
by JohnnyTruant on May 15, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just giving him good advice
That’s it. Yeah… <_<
by Frost on May 15, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially considering all other teams in the division have made drastic strides this offseason…
by StephanL on May 15, 2009 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
On the Hank Williams, Sr. reference…
by purplegrey on May 17, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are awesome.
Very entertaining article. I like this gridiron_assassin guy. He’s alright.
You’ve all forgot one thing. The Packers are going to win the division next year, so you can stop arguing. We had the most potent offense in the division last year (419 PF), and will still have the most potent offense this year. Our defense couldn’t be more injury plagued and consequently soft than last year.
You boys are fussin’ around about nothing… Pack win the division.
by StephanL on May 15, 2009 7:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Newsflash, Green Bay wasn’t the only team with defensive injuries last year. And yes, you have perhaps the best offense in the division, but that didn’t do you much good last year, when Rodgers threw an interception to end 5 winnable games.
by Frost on May 15, 2009 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, the Pack had the most potent offense
And if it hadn’t been for the Detroit Lions, their defense would have been one of the biggest jokes in the league.
Not worried about the Packers, particularly when Aaron Rodgers still wets himself at the mere mention of Jared Allen’s name.
The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!
by Gonzo on May 16, 2009 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha I'm glad you like me and all
but I think we’re definitely gonna have to disagree. As of right now I’d say defenses rank 1) Vikes 2) Bears 3) Pack 4) Lions (and I’m giving the Vikings the number 1 spot based on last year, I still believe our defense will improve remarkably and might even take that spot) and offenses 1) Bears 2) Pack 3) Vikes 4) Lions. Those are just how I see things shaping up based on last year and based on off season acquisitions/draft. Hate to break it to you all but the Bears are taking the North this year and you the rest of you can fight for spots 2-4 :)
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 16, 2009 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I have to disagree. To me, defenses are 1) Vikes 2) Pack 3) Bears 4) Lions.
Offense: 1) Pack 2) Bears 3) Vikes 4) Lions
As much as it pains me, I think the Bears may have the better offense between our two teams. Barely. The run game is clearly in our favor, but Cutler, sucky WRs or not, should help that offense out. But I find it laughable you think that Chicago, Jay Cutler or not, has a more potent offense than Green Bay. That pretty much shot your credibility. Driver, Jennings, Rodgers and Grant over Cutler, Forte, Hester and… Lloyd(?) any day.
by Frost on May 16, 2009 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well a couple problems with that...
I wouldn’t put the Pack ahead of us defensively simply because they are switching over to a 3-4 and it generally takes a year or two to adjust. Also, the main draft picks they spent on the defense are Raji and Matthews so they are depending on their old players to be able to make the switch which is not guaranteed to work by any means. Not to mention the defense wasn’t even that good last year so they have to prove they can handle the switch before I move them any higher on that list.
In terms of the offense, I believe the Bears have the better OL, better QB, better RBs and better TEs. They have us beat in terms of receivers but you just wait and see, Hester will develop a lot and improve on last year and our core of young receivers (one second year and potentially two rooks) will impress a lot of people. I am a firm believer that the QB makes the receivers and Cutler is going to make our group of receivers look much, much better than Orton ever could have.
But let’s just say that I can’t wait for the damn season to start already, I’m getting tired of all this speculation and I’m excited to see how everything plays out this year.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 16, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’d have to say the Packers have a better O-line than the Bears. The Bears simply have big-name guys who are getting up in age. Pace really isn’t the answer at LT. As for QB, I dunno. Its close, at the very least. Rodgers will likely do better next year than Cutler. RBs I also see as a bit of a wash. Forte and Grant are about the same level. I’ll give you the TEs though. But their WRs just outclass anyone’s in the division. And they’re pretty pass happy, so you know those guys get their opportunities to torch defenses. They have a much more balanced, making it a harder to defend against, offense.
Their defense isn’t as bad as people, myself included, have given them credit for. They did have some pretty bad injuries last year. And yes, they’re switching to the 3-4, but I think their defense still has a bit more teeth then Chicago’s. The LBs are a bit better, the secondary is better despite their age. You could argue D-line, but they had trouble getting to the QB last year, so I’ll give that to Chitown.
by Frost on May 16, 2009 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points...
Regardless it’s gonna be a fun season and I can’t wait to see how the division plays out.
"One time I went to a social gathering, I brought a bottle of Tanqueray and a shotgun and showed those motherf&#@ers the best time they ever had!"- Kenny Powers (Eastbound and Down)
"Why give 100% when 35 can still get you paid and laid."- Kenny Powers
by gridiron_assassin on May 17, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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