Tarkenton vs. Foreman
by Anthony21 on May 28, 2009 3:41 PM CDT
in Favregeddon
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PrintAs mentioned in the comments this morning, Chuck Foreman came out with a stance on Favre virtually opposite to that of Tarkenton...here's what he said:
Number one, I’m a big Brett Favre fan. Number two, the New York Jets, where he went to play [in 2008], were a mediocre team or less when he got there and he took them to an above average team. He didn’t have the talent surrounding him, he had the injury. At 39, Brett Favre is better than 80 percent of the quarterbacks in the NFL anyway. I don’t think age should be a factor and if the man wants to play, he should be able to play.
Loyalty in this game is not what it used to be. If you’re not playing well, they drop you like a hot iron. Brett Favre should play and I hope he’s playing with the Vikings. But as far as being selfish goes, I think some people need to look in the mirror. In this game, there’s some selfishness in all of us. So to say that Brett is selfish or that the Packers gave him … he gave the Packers just as much as they gave him.
And heading back to Tarkenton's side, he was interviewed by Paul Allen of KFAN today -- here's the audio, and here are a few highlights:
I don’t like the idea of Brett Favre doing to the Packers what he’s done. I think he’s been disrespectful. In my opinion, I think it’s been ridiculous. I’m tired of reading about it. For the Minnesota Vikings to entertain this is pretty ridiculous itself. It’s a sliver-bullet last-gasp solution. They’ve done a wonderful job building a football team.
There are not many 39-year-old quarterbacks coming off of a shoulder problem that have been able to do very well in the National Football League. Here’s what Brett is going to find out. When he hangs them up, he’s going to find out that the Green Bay Packers, the Minnesota Vikings and the National Football League is going to do very well without him as they have without me. It evolves. There is a time to go and why has he been so back and forth now for the second season in a row, at least, if not before?
Contrary to what a number of commenters were suggesting this morning, I'm actually in agreement with Chuck -- I've always supported the idea of adding Favre to the mix. Where I agree with Tarkenton, though, is that the Packers organization and its fans didn't deserve what Brett did to them last summer. Green Bay had provided an outstanding home for Brett for nearly two decades, and given that, I have a problem with the lack of professionalism that characterized Favre's return to the NFL. I don't specifically have an issue with his decision to play another season or find another home -- I just think he could have been much more classy about it.
So it's hard to say whose side I'm on between Foreman and Tarkenton, but for the most part, I agree with Chuck. He's absolutely right in that the game has changed since the general period in which he and Fran played. Yeah, there's always been a certain amount of selfishness in professional sports, but it's never been treated more like a business than in the present day. Fran may be speaking for the players of his era in griping about a lack of loyalty in the league, but professional sports are ultimately a business.
How about you...who do you find yourself in agreement with, between Fran and Chuck?
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Sadly...
The days of player and team loyalty are long gone. Rice and Montana didn’t finish with the Niners. Seau didn’t finish with the Chargers. A player may sign a 1-day contract with a favorite team at the end of their career, but for the most part, teams decide that it’s time to move on, regardless of the player.
When you go to somebody's house, you don't crap on their floor. Being a fan of one team does NOT give you license to be a dick to fans of another.
Loyalty Is a Two Way Street
Before the league which eventually became the NFL was even born, the Baltimore Orioles had sold Babe Ruth to the Boston Red Sox, and the Red Sox had sold Babe Ruth to the New York Yankees. In professional sports, loyalty ends when they stop paying you, if not sooner.
Sure, the fans take loyalty much more seriously, so the Japanese taught their troops to yell, “To hell with Babe Ruth!” as an insult.
Favre doesn’t know when to sit down. That is one of the qualities to which he owes the success which will get him enshrined in Canton one day if he ever actually quits playing, so it is neither inconsistent nor surprising to see his current behaviour, ridiculous or not. He is Brett Favre. Favre’s first NFL head coach called Favre a “car wreck” and when asked under what circumstances Favre would start a game answered “a plane crash.” However, yelling at Favre for being stuck on muddling forward is like yelling at a tornado for bringing you hail. It all just comes naturally. If you expect Favre ever to go away, use adhesive screws on his coffin. He can’t help being a zombie; he was born that way.
Rofl!
I had never heard that before "Japanese taught their troops to yell, “To hell with Babe Ruth!” But, I looked it up and sure enough, that was what they did. I love history and think of myself as a constant student of it. It seems that every day, I learn something new.
Re: Loyalty Is a Two Way Street
>>>Favre doesn’t know when to sit down.
Let me ask you this, when the Jets were 8-3 last year, how much of that was because of Favre? How much of it was because of the Jets team? Here are the QB ratings he had over those games; 125.9, 85.6, 92.5, 123.7, 73.9, 47.8, 76, 73.7, 117.7, 119.4, 103.6. He had 20 TDs and 13 INTs. Now, what record would Minnesota have with that same level of play from Favre that the Jets got last year?
Maybe he does know when it’s time to sit down after all. I don’t think he would come back if he didn’t believe that it would be a great opportunity. It’s not like he’s shopping himself around the league.
Fran made some good points today and redeemed himself to an extent. I guess I knew he was not about to entirely back down from his previous opinion. But the end of Fran’s career was his and I don’t know how much that has to do with the end of Favre’s career.
And what about the last five games? You can’t just take the first 11 and say “this is what he’ll do for the Vikings.” You have to take the entire season.
Also, if he knows when to sit down, why did he play the last five games last season?
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on May 29, 2009 5:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Because Clements was behind him on the depth chart. . . An injured Favre probably still gave the Jets the best chance to win over Clements.
exactly
his injury was the reason for the decline. The difference in MN will be that there will be at least one, if not two, other QBs that could be thrown out there.
Favre was carrying the Jets, he won’t have to that in MN. Favre gets hurt this year, enter Sage.
How so?
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on May 29, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
really? you don’t see that as an asset? are you that blind to man’s career to not even accept him as an experienced leader that would create less panic? that he could mentor just about any QB in the league?
Has he ever really been that much of a mentor?
Rodgers took on some of his worst traits (untimely interceptions), and he and the Jets didn’t get along well at all. I just don’t see him as being a mentor.
Now obviously I can’t say that for sure, none of us can either way, but the way he’s acted, both now and in the past, point towards him not giving a darn about Tarvaris and company.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on May 29, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Mentor-absolutely
I dont see him on any NFL “most arrests” record. He is an extraordinary QB and all-around athlete. I dont know of many others that will actually admit their issues let alone face them. He has shown great pride and dignity and has never ever believed himself to be above any one. Just by you not even acknowledging him and his many many accomplishments shows your ignorance to a " phenomenal QB in the NFL." Whatever your grudge is, you cannot belittle his talent.
Never belittled the talent he had. All I’m saying is I don’t think he’d be too hot of a mentor. Just because he’s a model citizen who holds records doesn’t mean he’d give younger QBs the time of day.
Never believed himself to be above anyone? He held an entire organization hostage for multiple offseasons. He thinks pretty highly of himself alright.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on May 30, 2009 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank you-I guess some people are so begrudging that they cant give credit where its due. Or maybe he thinks T.O. would be a better mentor? That sounds about his mental I.Q.
Where the hell are you getting all this? All I said was that he didn’t get along with the Jets and I don’t think he’d care to help our QBs. That’s it. I just think he’s full of himself. I have also commented in other threads that I don’t think he is nearly as good as he used to be, if that’s what your referring to with your “can’t give credit where it’s due,” which is not at all what I’m doing.
I never said he wasn’t one of the best QBs ever.
I never “belittled his talent.” Saying he’s not as good as he used to be isn’t “belittling his talent.”
I never said he was like TO.
Stop pulling crap out of your arse. For crying out loud, I was debating civilly and you popped in insulting my intelligence just because we disagree. Good Lord.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on May 30, 2009 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry man
you sound silly saying that you admit he’s been a great QB, has tons of experience, but he won’t make a good mentor.
Usually, you want the mentor to have experience and to know what it takes to be successful. As much as I’ve hated Favre over the years, I can still see that he’s a great player.
And in regards to your argument that because he has issues with how he was treated in Green Bay, that he does not possess leadership skills, that also sounds silly. I think his attitude towards Packer management is understandable. He was there QB for 16 years. He was there before Thompson and McCarthy and turned a mediocre (Lion like) franchise, into a football hot-bed with the help of Reggie White. Thompson never listened to Favre even when what Favre wanted made sense. Thompson chose to bring in McCarthy over Favre’s choice of Mariucci. Thompson let several veteran OL go that Favre wanted to keep around. He didn’t go after Moss when they could have gotten him on the cheap. And then they try and force him into retirement. If that were me, I would be pissed too. Why does Thompson get to call all the shots and shove aside the guy who made GB’s success happen? I can’t believe that GB fans don’t want Thompson sent packing. Part of being a leader is standing up to what you think is wrong and calling it/them out. I respect Favre for what he did in GB, all the way to the miserable end.
Then people say he wasn’t a leader in New York. That situation is tough and New York has to take responsibility for accepting him under those terms. I doubt it was Favre’s call to get rid of Pennington, which was a mistake and I’m sure pissed off a lot people in New York. When the Jets picked up Favre, they had to of known that he didn’t want to play for them. I was surprised anyone wanted to trade for a guy who made it obvious that he wanted to go to Minnesota. Favre didn’t have a choice in the matter, his rights were traded to the Jets. They put him in that situation and he never called out people there. I think he did the best with the hand he was dealt.
Favre doesn’t really say much to the media. But a lot of people like to put words in his mouth. I don’t think it’s fair to judge him based on what other people think. I think you judge him on his actions and his words. I think he gets blamed for a lot things that were out of his control.
He would be a perfect teacher for Jackson. I think Sage would learn too, bright people always learn from others. But with Tavaris, it could really be a defining year for him to see someone who does crack under pressure just go out there and do it week in and week out. Jackson has all the abilities, he fast, elusive, has a cannon of an arm, the potential is there. (I still think about that first preseason Jackson was in and when he broke downfield, the guy could really move and make people miss.) So what’s holding him back at this point. I think it’s his head. Favre’s presence could be huge for Jackson.
It blows my mind that you’re such a fan, you don’t see that.
I never said he would be a bad mentor, just that I don’t think he would be one. I don’t think he’d go out of his way very often to help out Tarvaris. Obviously I can’t know for sure, it’s just my opinion. But I never said he would be a bad mentor.
Second of all, none of what happened to Favre justifies retiring and then unretiring and expecting to be handed the starting job. I don’t care who he is or what was done to him: he said he was done, Green Bay moved on, and then he came back and expected it to be like nothing had changed. Nothing justifies that.
As for judging him on his actions and words, how else are you supposed to judge people? We cannot read minds or hearts, and so what they do and say the rule by which they are measured. Retiring and hinting at retiring (for several years) were in his control. His play was in his control, which is the main thing I question. Not his leadership. I do question whether he’d be willing to mentor, but that’s not my main beef with him. His play is slipping.
I also never said he didn’t have leadership skills. You’re lumping my arguments in with other arguments.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on May 31, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Re: I never said he would be a bad mentor
>>Never belittled the talent he had. All I’m saying is I don’t think >>he’d be too hot of a mentor. Just because he’s a model citizen >>who holds records doesn’t mean he’d give younger QBs the >>time of day.
There is where you said it.
>>he said he was done, Green Bay moved on, and then he >>came back and expected it to be like nothing had changed. >>Nothing justifies that.
That’s his right to say he’s changed his mind. If GB does not want him, that’s fine too, but release him.
>>As for judging him on his actions and words, how else are >>you supposed to judge people?
A lot of people have a negative opinion because he gets so much press about him that’s really nothing. But that’s not his fault that people are obsessing.
>>I do question whether he’d be willing to mentor, but that’s >>not my main beef with him. His play is slipping.
His play was at a high level until he got hurt last year. The Jets had no other winning options at QB, but he should not have played with a bad throwing arm. He won’t be hurt starting this year if he gets his shoulder fixed. The Vikes are a better team than the Jets from last year.
You seem to be conceding quite a bit about why/why not you would want to bring him in to MN. If you take all your concessions and add them up, it’s seems like it would make sense to bring him in.
I’ll just say that I understand why many want to bring him in, and respectfully disagree.
Never belittled the talent he had. All I’m saying is I don’t think he’d be too hot of a mentor.
Okay, I worded that differently than how I meant it (I know that sounds like a cheap way to change my mind, but it’s not). I meant that he wouldn’t be too hot on being a mentor. Just a couple words different…
I’ll just agree to disagree on the rest. I think his play is slipping, especially in the playoffs (when he actually made it, it’s not ‘97 anymore), and also that there’s almost no chance he’ll lead us to the Super Bowl. Most people disagree. /shrug
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jun 1, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
My old Fran Tarkenton jersey...
…. was featured in both my 3rd and 4th grade school pictures, and to hear my mom and grandmother tell it, absolutely EVERY day in-between (rescued from the dirty clothes hamper every morning before school). My fiancee probably “sealed the deal” with me wanting to get married by giving me a NEW Tarkenton jersey last year for my birthday… all that being said, I definitely do not agree with Fran the Man on this one. Foreman is right. Brett may or may not be better than 80% of the QBs in the NFL— but he is better than 100% of the QBs on the Vikings right now, and THAT is more to the point. Sure, he is an extremely short term measure, but it unfortunately doesn’t look like we are seriously taking a long term approach to that position anyway, so we might as well go with the best short term QB that we can get— and if that is Favre, then it’s Favre.
by Sonic on May 28, 2009 6:47 PM CDT reply actions
good to hear
I grew up idolizing Tarkington. I always wanted to be #10 in sports. But since he has been retired, the things he’s done and said have been less than stellar at times. Like even the things he has said about himself as a player have left me questioning him. It won’t take away from the fact that he was one of the most exciting QBs to watch ever. I think it’s a separation between the man on and off the field.
One thing I do know, with or without Favre, this Vikings team could be something great. Put the best QB on the field and go.
+1
Players come and go. If Favre has enough gas in the tank, let the man compete if he wants to do so.
As for Favre not being loyal to GB…. was GB loyal to him? These things are a two way street, and at the end of the day, the NFL and the franchises are businesses and the players are employees, and only we fans romanticize that things today are more like they were in the old days….
Tark may have forgotten van Brocklin and his own exile to NYC.
I always wanted #10 as well...
… and still would if I wasn’t so old… even a little older than Favre! And like you, I have definitely separated Tarkenton on the field— scrambling around like a genius maniac and catching the eye of a little kid getting his first looks at something really exciting called the ‘NFL’ — and the Tarkenton off the field. Like you, I make that distinction pretty easily and happily.
Your last statement is 110% right on considering our commitment to short-term strategies at the QB position: “…. with or without Favre, this Vikings team could be something great. Put the best QB on the field and go.”
Go Vikes!
by Sonic on May 29, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with Chuck that the game has changed. I don’t care that Favre was a Packer.
The reason I agree with Fran has to do with his other points. Favre is old, coming off an injury. He doesn’t have the endurance to make it through a season with the arm he has now, no matter what supporters try to say.
Additionally, Favre is an extremely selfish player. Not because of wanting to play more, but because of the way he treated the Packers and because of the way he behaved with the Jets last year. We don’t need that cancer.
You know something everyone else doesnt?
So, you were behind closed doors in Green Bay? Awesome-please share the details-I would love to read them. I am so curious about what TT had to say? So, do tell…
First of all nobody but the Packers management and Favre knows what happened between them Period…..If the Vikings want him that is up to them not any of us….I would like to know why Fran would judge him, maybe you should ask the Vikings management why they want him and not why Favre wants to play….and thinking Favre is coming back just to beat the Pack is silly, but it would be a fringe benifit…and my last thought was Favre does have a ring on his finger, everybody wants to bash Fave but if he is old and washed up why do they want him, if he is washed up then its the Vikings fault for not knowing not his….
If Tarkenton had some of Favre’s passing records he still would not be as loved as Farve. While Brett has never been about the money I wonder who all you cheated,Fran to get hit with the huge fine from the SEC? Brett’s a star.You must be born with the traits and Tarkenton, you weren’t. No point being so jealous;petty. I hear you have a book coming out. Perhaps you feel it will only be read if you talk about Farve. The radio interveiw said it all-it;s all about you!
Bitter Packer Fanboys
Got nothing better to do with their time than to come over here and try to stir up crap. Really shows how little they have going for them over there.
Hindsight: Oops?
I think Tarkenton used this opportunity to get his name back in the news because he has a book coming out. However, I wonder if it won’t backfire on him. The Vikings were going to be a very good team with or without Favre. Now that it looks like it will be with Favre … did Tarkenton, in trying to get press, actually just set himself up to blow his chance to ever be relevant again to a younger generation, if it turns out Favre is along for a ride all the way to a superbowl win?
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