T-Jack and JDB: Who Stays, Who Goes?
by Anthony21 on Jun 19, 2009 3:20 PM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings
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PrintAs mentioned and discussed in the FanPosts, some folks -- including Gregg Rosenthal and Judd Zulgad -- seem to believe that an acquisition of Favre would mean the end of T-Jack's run in Minnesota. Though it's a safe bet that Rosenfels would become the backup in the event that Favre joins the team, a decision will need to be made between Jackson and John David Booty for the third-string quarterback slot. I've always felt that Booty would be the odd man out, but in a live chat on Thursday, Zulgad stated just the opposite:
Q: Which QB is in the greatest danger to be dropped if Farve does come, and would we just release them, or try to trade?
A: Many will say Booty but I would not be surprised if it's Jackson. Tarvaris is entering the final season of his contract and the Vikings might not want to give up on Booty because of his potential. Releasing Jackson could set up the Vikings to have Rosenfels be their starter and Booty the No. 2 guy in 2010.
First of all, I think the Vikes will look for a way to keep both T-Jack and JDB -- that is, one might end up getting "injured." But I completely disagree with Zulgad on this. If you can only retain one of the two, you've gotta keep Jackson around. Here's why:
- The team has invested too much in Jackson to let him go. Not necessarily monetary-wise, but in terms of time and effort. To suddenly display that these last few years of the T-Jack experiment had gone to waste would be a tough pill to swallow for those of us who patiently put up with the young quarterback's growing pains. Favre may be the starter this season, but we've gone too far with T-Jack to give up on him now.
- He showed that he can excel against playoff teams. True, T-Jack deserved to get yanked after the first two games of the year, and his playoff performance is hopefully something he's forgotten by now. But a four-touchdown game against the eventual NFC champions and another solid performance a week later against another playoff team (Atlanta) cannot be ignored. It's hard to justify letting someone with that track record go while retaining a quarterback who hasn't thrown a single regular season pass in his NFL career.
- He has the physical tools to succeed. This is perhaps the biggest reason I'd like Jackson to stay around. The guy has a cannon of an arm and he has elusiveness -- two key tools to succeeding as an NFL starting quarterback. At this point, the main challenge of molding him into a starting quarterback is refining and polishing his decision-making ability. The physical tools are there -- now, his challenges are mainly mental.
- Guaranteeing Sage the starting quarterback job in 2010 is ill-advised. Look, the whole premise of trading for Rosenfels was that he could compete with Jackson for the starting job in training camp -- because frankly, he hasn't done enough in his career to deserve anything more than a quarterback competition. If Sage spends a season holding a clipboard for Brett Favre, he'd suddenly be worthy of a guaranteed starting job?
- John David Booty is a complete unknown. He might become a serviceable backup quarterback at the NFL level, but then again, he might not even be with the team for the 2010 season. Point is, we have no idea what to expect from this guy -- the only thing we know about him is that he performed dreadfully in the 2008 preseason. At least we've seen something from T-Jack to suggest he can be successful at this level.
Again, it's questionable if the team will even be forced to choose between keeping one or the other -- but if it did come to that, I'm keeping Jackson, and it's not a tough decision in the least.
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Only other thing
I read somewhere that Booty has perforned well in minicamp and OTA’s this year, for whatever that’s worth.
all good points
here’s another.
having favre start this year, the vikings can sign tj to a reasonable (3 – 5 years) contract for next to nothing. if he then turns into a bonafide starter, we’re still paying backup money.
by iseepurplepeople on Jun 19, 2009 3:29 PM CDT reply actions
I like tavaris!
I think he’s close to becoming a solid starting QB in this league. All he has to do is be a little bit smarter when under pressure, and learn how to slide when he runs.
Well said, my friend.
"He didn’t call me or anything. It was an accident, but a lot of people would have called to see how someone is doing after they got hit in the head. Especially if they had to go on the DL." — Morneau on pitcher Ron Villone after an April 2005 beaning.
"John David Booty is a complete unknown"
If you mean this literally, interesting you see this as something to support an argument that we keep TJack over him. The way I see it is that you just acknowledged that we (including you) don’t actually know enough to make this judgement. In other words, rather than supporting all your previous points, you invalidated them.
Is your head actually made of pudding?
"He didn’t call me or anything. It was an accident, but a lot of people would have called to see how someone is doing after they got hit in the head. Especially if they had to go on the DL." — Morneau on pitcher Ron Villone after an April 2005 beaning.
Actually, I think that validates them just fine.
His comments are that we know what Jackson has, we have spent 3 years with him. We know his strong points, and we know his faults.
We know what we can expect from him, and we know he is improving from year to year.
We know none of that with JDB, and we cannot justify keeping Booty over Jackson.
In other words, rather than supporting all your previous points, you invalidated them.
Is this a debate class? ;) Thanks Bjorno.
TJack is the best QB on the team today!
And will be a GREAT backup if we bring in Favre. I would have strongly considered voting for getting rid of Rosecopter if it had been an option. I’m curious about Booty because he seems to have shaved off some weight and come to camp ready to compete. But, I certainly feel that TJack has earned his place on this team.
T Jack..See Ya...
Unlike T Jack.. Booty is something given the Leadership of Favre…Booty has the Chance to grow and could become a good QB..Compared to that stumbling Bum T JACK who just flat out sucks and is too damn inconsistent.
Why not dumping Rosenfelds?
If TJ has potential and only needs polishing, and if Rosenfelds has not proven anything,in all these years he’s been around, why not keeping Booty, who may have the tools to make it? Let’s give him a chance and say sorry to Sage.
Because we just traded a fourth round pick for him, and by dropping him it will be a complete waste. That reason alone will mean he stays.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jun 20, 2009 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Tho Im never been.......
a T.J. fan, and doubt I ever will and still think he really won’t be much more then a career back-up and doubt he will ever get the mental skills to be a leader, more blame on Chilly for throwing him in way to fast, I would rather have the starter role fought between T.J., Sage and Booty maybe given a chance. And yes, I do mean just those 3 at season’s start.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk"
Letting TJack go would be a huge mistake
I’m actually very surprised with the percentages. Really? Some people would pick JDB over TJack? Really? What has JDB done to merit consideration? I like JDB, and I like him as the 3rd string QB. But I like TJack way more, and I honestly feel he can earn the starting spot in a competition between him and Sage. He has considerably improved year after year. Look what he did after sitting behind Gus for half a season. Just imagine him next year after sitting behind one of the greatest Qbs of all time. Sage is like 31, he is as good as he is going to get. We have not seen the best of TJack yet. Jackson can also be signed for 3-5 years for a pretty cheap price.
IMO, I’d rather not get Favre if that means we cut Tarvaris. Favre is a one year fix at most. Jackson has the ability to be a starting QB for a decade.
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jun 19, 2009 7:01 PM CDT reply actions
Why not keep all 4?
It’s occurred on other NFL teams before. I would not dare risk losing Booty to waivers by trying to sneak him onto the practice squad (Thigpen). All three can learn from their experience backing up Favre, and gain additional experience in the offense.
I always cringe over the Thigpen fiasco. I still can kick Chilly and Spielman in the arse for that one.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk"
by VikesFaninNM on Jun 19, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
There are often other wasted spaces on the roster that would warrent dropping someone who is never being used and keeping a QB with future potential (JDB).
Post Script: I am a little curious to see how Colt Brennon fares this pre-season. I was impressed with his poise last pre-season. Often thought he is one of these mechanicaly deficient QB’s who could come out of nowhere and make it with some team.
by CitrusFLViking on Jun 20, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Sunk Cost Fallacy
The post relies awfully heavily on logic that is know as the sunk cost fallacy. Having poured so much time and effort into Tarvaris, how can we give up on him now? Well, pouring time and effort into something does not mean it will succeed. I suppose pouring repair money into a car means that we’d hate to get rid of the car when it is about to start working perfectly.
Pouring time and effort into T-Jack is no guarantee that he will ever develop into a legitimate QB that can prevent defenses from stacking nine in the box, much less a QB that can win games based on his ability on a regular basis.
Many people made similar complaints — inclluding Reusse — about the loss of a QB that had actually demonstrated he could perform at one time — Culpepper. So far, Chilly was right on that one and Culpepper has not been good for many a year. Too bad we didn’t keep him after we had so much invested in him.
BTW, the playoff teams T.J. excelled against did not have very good defenses. He did not do well against the Giants 2d team defense. He did horribly against Philly’s first team.
Improvement
I don’t think the sunk cost fallacy is really accurate here. QBs rarely come into their own until 3-4 years in the league. TJ has started 19 games in 3 years (played in 25). His QB rating has gone up consistently: 62.5, 70.8, 95.4.
In ’07, he had 9 TDs, 12 INTs. In ’08, he had almost 50% LESS passing attempts, but had 9 TDs and only 2 INTs.
You’re not pouring money into a car – a car is supposed to work off the lot. Daunte had 7 years and a major knee injury. TJ is a young QB learning the ropes, and he can take us to the promised land! Sage can watch, JDB can learn, and Favre can stay retired.
GO T-JACK!!!!!
by JasonAve6413 on Jun 19, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we keep 4 if...
I think it all depends on the Williams wall. If they will be gone the first 4 games of the year, the Vikings will need to keep an extra DT or two to compensate. I think if they don’t get suspended, the Vikings will keep 4 QBs
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jun 19, 2009 10:19 PM CDT reply actions
You would have to be an idiot
To release Tarvaris Jackson over JOHN DAVID BOOTY or SAGE ROSENFELS. Tarvaris Jackson has always been the favorite over these 2 guys. The only reason Brad Childress pushed to nab Sage Rosenfels was so he could push TJack to the next level. Tarvaris Jackson has incredible athletic ability and potential as a Quarterback, its his drive that has hindered him so long. He has had no reason to perform. Now he has his reason, if Favre does not come to the Vikings I am 100% sure Tjack would be our Quarterback… JDB and Sage over Tjack?! You’ve got to be joking…
by FutureViking43 on Jun 19, 2009 10:22 PM CDT reply actions
I wouldnt release T.J. no, but give Sage and Booty and eual chance as well
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk"
by VikesFaninNM on Jun 19, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
T-Jack
Has anyone considered what kind of role Jackson could play in the “Loki” offense? The possibilities are mind boggling. I’m not Jackson’s biggest fan, but I wouldn’t mind seeing a couple of plays with Peterson, Taylor, Harvin and Jackson all lined up on offense.
The Minnesota Vikings - Undefeated in the Playoffs at Lambeau Field!
all in the backfield!
Rice and Berrian on the outside! mmmmm
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jun 19, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
That would be awesome!
Throw that in there every 5th play and keep the defenses thinking.
Also, with all the talk of losing or trading Taylor , i think we should be moving to sign him and keep him active in the offense.
by CitrusFLViking on Jun 20, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Who to keep???
T-Jack or Booty? I would let Jackson go, he has been tried and found to be wanting. Booty on the other hand is still an unknown quantity. If he does not have to take the field again this year, that will only work in his favor. Jackson has not learned to read a defense, and can not be consistent with his passes. He reminds me too much of Daunte post Moss. Moss made Daunte great, without Moss, Daunte was nothing. T-Jack has no Moss.
This completely surprises me.
Jackson is more talented and less turnover prone than Rosenfels and less wear and tear than Father Time (Favre).
Too much of an investment in Jackson should make it easier to let a middling and marginal QB like Booty go. He’s a career clipboarder.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Sunk Costs Fallacy
In economics and business decision-making, sunk costs are costs that cannot be recovered once they have been incurred.
Guys, the answers simple.
Just don’t get Favre! Then there’s no problem. Tjack and Sage are the starter/backup, and Booty rides the pine all year. No drama or debate necessary.
In all seriousness though, keep Tjack, try to stick Booty on the practice squad.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jun 20, 2009 8:10 AM CDT reply actions
Jackson Should Go
If it comes down to a choice between Tarvaris Jackson and John David Booty, then Jackson should go. Jackson has had three years and he has yet to prove he can play well consistently in the NFL. He really hasn’t gotten any better than he was at the end of the 2007 season. Truthfully, he hasn’t gotten back to the level he showed during the last 10 minutes of the last game of the 2007 season against the Denver Broncos. He has flashes, but he can’t sustain. He’s had three years and, frankly, he just hasn’t shown that he’s going to get any better; and where he is just isn’t good enough.
Jackson has had three years and he has yet to prove he can play well consistently in the NFL.
Nevermind the fact that it usually takes a college QB 3-4 years to adjust to an NFL offense.
He really hasn’t gotten any better than he was at the end of the 2007 season. Truthfully, he hasn’t gotten back to the level he showed during the last 10 minutes of the last game of the 2007 season against the Denver Broncos.
Nevermind the 9 TD 2 INT run he had in the last 4 games of the season last year.
Play Book
If T-Jack has learned over 10 plays I’ll consider him.
If you can get your hands on the ball you should be able to catch it no matter what!
Run left over guard,
run left over tackle, screeen pass to Tahi, punt.
Unless, of course, Purple Jesus goes to the house on one of the first two plays.
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
Its a trade or nothing
There are two ways this will play out if we sign Favre.
1. We trade TJack to some team for a 5th round pick and keep the other three.
2. Someone gets unjured and its a non issue.
They won’t trade or release JDB because he’s got potential to be good in this offense and needs at least 2 more years to develop. He’s gotten himself in proper shape this year so in some ways it’ll be a rookie year just learning how to make the most of his new athleticism.
Rosenfels isn’t going anywhere because he was traded for and hasn’t even taken a snap yet. Honestly I’ve never heard so much negative stuff from fans about a guy who hasn’t even taken a single snap for the team. Rosenfels is a better QB than TJack. Everyone points to TJack’s stats but I watched the game and in his bad games he looks soooo bad! We can’t risk having the bad TJack on the field as a starter. Give Rosie a chance!!
Here’s hoping Brett Favre can still play like he did 2 years ago cause if he does we’re going to the superbowl.
T-JACK
He sucks so trade him period!! JDB has a better chance to become a QB then T-Jack does so keep JDB… T-Jack well never be a full time QB anywhere…
What are you basing that on? Seems to me Tjack has accomplished a hell of a lot more than Booty so far.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jun 20, 2009 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
it’s the name. tavaris is hard to pronounce but everyone knows booty.
by iseepurplepeople on Jun 21, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
True.
Plus Booty is so much more appealing.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jun 21, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Also true.
You have to factor in age, experience, etc. Otherwise you might get too many bad decisions being made that prove costly in the following months.
…
Hold on a second… we aren’t talking about football anymore, are we?
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
F-A-R-V-A =/= F-A-V-R-E
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jun 22, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
what??
of course! whatever did you think?
by iseepurplepeople on Jun 22, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Chemistry
One thing T-Jack has on Sage and JDB is Chemistry. Him and Visanthe Shiancoe are great friends and many othe rplaters have referred to him as “my boy”. The players would be pissed if they let go of him.
Bottom line is this
Sage is already injured in practice. Brett Favre gets injured in the 3rd quarter and gets carted off the field. Who do you want to step on the field and lead the Vikings? Tarvaris Jackson? Or JDB? For those of you that want to be smart asses and say JDB… don’t. JDB might be an NFL QB 2-4 years down the road. TJack led the Vikings to the playoffs LAST SEASON!
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Jun 20, 2009 2:55 PM CDT reply actions
Talent wise, keep TJ. In reality, they probably keep JDB
If Favre comes in and takes over, TJ probably gets an ‘eff you’ attitude towards the Vikings. He’s in the last year of his contract, they bring in Rosenfels to give him competition, and then they throw both of them overboard for Favre. Rosenfels has no option but to deal with it, because he just signed an extension. TJ will be a free agent, and if he’s a man with pride, will probably not want to remain in Minnesota, unless the Vikings franchise him, which they won’t.
So if the Vikes keep TJ and cut JDB, they face the potential of having only one QB on the roster at the end of the season, and with Rosenfels already north of 30, they’ll be starting over, long term, at QB again going into free agency and the draft.
And there won’t be anything available at pick #32 :)
Thoughts on the Vikings, Buckeyes, and Cardinals
www.purplebuckeye.blogspot.com
Boot Gleason
I’m surprised there’s a question, which makes this an awesome topic :)
JDB has shown nothing but absolute, screaming incompetence and incapability, the very few times he’s been allowed to wear the big-boy pants. He hasn’t shown that he’s competent to hand the ball off to AP. Yet, almost 350 people think he’s a better QB than T-Jack….
Wow. Just amazing. That’s a heck of an indictment of how much dissatisfaction there is with T-Jack, I suppose.
Oh. For the record… T-Jack has my vote as a keeper, but if he wants to bicker over a contract, it gets sticky. The downside of Favre showing up is that we don’t get to see if T-Jack or Sage has what it takes to be #1, before that contract time comes up for T-Jack.
And if someone has to go… his name is Sean Gleason.
And Moot
Thanks Manimal. Scratch one Glennon, carry the Booty over to the practice squad if need be.
Jb is almost already gone
With the new old # 4 JB is gone as soon asthey make it to the final cuts and the other 3 are healthy. It has never been mentioned that it was a 3 way competition for QB (with out BF) it has always been TJ & Sage. JB has not been a consideration. They are throwing complements his way in hopes that someone will give something for him. He is just the type of guy NE might take for nothing or next to nothing and develop. Yes it could be a Thigpen dejavu. Could JB be good? We will never know. - The coaching statff is hoping BF will come in and do something they have not been able to do: teach the other QBs the offense. Yes I know BF has never done it in the past but this could be different fro three reasons: # 1 He has aready mentioned how he could teach it. # 2 He knows that this year (or next) is his swan song # 3 The # 1 job is his unless he gets hurt.
Gus helped along the way
PPE09,, I don’t know, maybe you watched a different season than the rest of us did. TJ did ok, but you win as a team you loose as a team. Personally, I feel Gus had earned the right to at least start the play off game. If it didn’t work out then pull him in favor of TJ. To not give Gus a chance considering how far in the season he took us is, in my opinion a wrong move. I understand coach’s make decisions based on who they think will suit best for the team at the time. In this case it didn’t work.
T-Jack is allright but................
The team has invested too much in Jackson to let him go. Not necessarily monetary-wise, but in terms of time and effort. To suddenly display that these last few years of the T-Jack experiment had gone to waste would be a tough pill to swallow for those of us who patiently put up with the young quarterback’s growing pains. Favre may be the starter this season, but we’ve gone too far with T-Jack to give up on him now.
IMO this is similar to saying “I am not going to pull my ripcord now and open the parachute because I have fallen so far already that I might as well crash and burn”
* He showed that he can excel against playoff teams. True, T-Jack deserved to get yanked after the first two games of the year, and his playoff performance is hopefully something he’s forgotten by now. But a four-touchdown game against the eventual NFC champions and another solid performance a week later against another playoff team (Atlanta) cannot be ignored. It’s hard to justify letting someone with that track record go while retaining a quarterback who hasn’t thrown a single regular season pass in his NFL career.
Yes indeedy, unfortunately he has shown how bad he can be against the dregs of the league.
* He has the physical tools to succeed. This is perhaps the biggest reason I’d like Jackson to stay around. The guy has a cannon of an arm and he has elusiveness — two key tools to succeeding as an NFL starting quarterback. At this point, the main challenge of molding him into a starting quarterback is refining and polishing his decision-making ability. The physical tools are there — now, his challenges are mainly mental.
Every QB drafted out of college has the skills to suceed or they wouldn’t be drafted in the first place. The challenge of making the transition to the pro level is always mental (can you say Daunte?) and IMO he just doen’t get it.
* Guaranteeing Sage the starting quarterback job in 2010 is ill-advised. Look, the whole premise of trading for Rosenfels was that he could compete with Jackson for the starting job in training camp — because frankly, he hasn’t done enough in his career to deserve anything more than a quarterback competition. If Sage spends a season holding a clipboard for Brett Favre, he’d suddenly be worthy of a guaranteed starting job?
There are no guarantees, Farve could just as he easily stay for two or three more years after we win the Superbowl this year. IMO, that whole BS about competing for the starting job in training camp was just to save face for Chilly and TJ
* John David Booty is a complete unknown. He might become a serviceable backup quarterback at the NFL level, but then again, he might not even be with the team for the 2010 season. Point is, we have no idea what to expect from this guy — the only thing we know about him is that he performed dreadfully in the 2008 preseason. At least we’ve seen something from T-Jack to suggest he can be successful at this level.
This is the only point you make that I find myself in agreement with, but when was the last time it made a difference in the NFL who the THIRD string QB is?
enough with T Jack
T Jack is a known, and it isn’t good. Thigpen was an unknown who did better than T Jack last year. Time to dump the known bad.
If you had to pet a dog, would you pet the dog you know is going to bite you, or the one that might….
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