So...Who Gets the Starting Job?
by Anthony21 on Jul 29, 2009 3:10 AM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings
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PrintRewind three months. Brett Favre isn't even on the Vikings' radar. The attention-craving, flip-flopping, me-me-me quarterback has yet to seriously entertain talk of playing for the Vikes. Instead, it's T-Jack vs. Rosenfels for the starting job, a showdown that doesn't have a clear favorite and will occur months down the road in training camp.
Well, we're back to that point. Still don't know who the 2009 starter is, still waiting to see how Tarvaris and Sage perform in Mankato -- but now, we're only days away from the start of the quarterback competition. Let's break it down after the jump...
At this point, the race for the starting job has been previewed pretty well. We know the pros and cons of each quarterback. We know that if Tarvaris plays at the level he did near the end of last season, he wins the starting job. We know he has a damn good arm and the ability to escape pressure. But we also know he's still very raw. His decision-making ability came under extensive criticism last season, and I think his game needs a ton of polish.
Sage has been around quite a bit longer than Jackson -- eight seasons in the NFL, compared to T-Jack's three. Still, T-Jack has started 19 games while Rosenfels has started just 12. Concerns about Jackson's inability to move the ball could push the coaching staff to Sage, as he averaged 8.2 yards per attempted pass last season while T-Jack averaged just 7.1 yards (of course, when Bobby Wade is your second-leading receiver, you could use another weapon or two). But Sage's 10 interceptions in just 174 pass attempts in 2008 shouldn't be ignored.
Just as important as the numbers is the mental component of what each guy brings to the table. That's going to be important -- quite a bit more important than usual, given the bizarre circumstances. Which guy can deal with the fact that he wasn't the team's first choice for starting quarterback? Which guy can handle the pressure and scrutiny associated with filling a spot in the starting lineup that most expected Brett Favre to fill? And let's not forget the high expectations the Vikings had even without Favre. Which quarterback is best-suited for handling the pressures of leading a playoff-caliber team?
I'm inclined to believe that man is Sage Rosenfels. And that's not a testament to his leadership ability or his ability to maintain a sense of poise and composure while dealing with pressure. Instead, I chose him by default. I'm not confident in T-Jack's ability to handle pressure, I'm not confident in his ability to handle the scrutiny in a calm, collected manner. Let's be honest: We've seen little to suggest that the man can remain focused in tough situations.
Again, though, we've got to look at the complete package. I love T-Jack's strong arm and athleticism, but I wonder if he's mentally equipped to handle pressure. Meanwhile, Rosenfels has a superior ability to move the ball than Jackson has displayed -- even if he'll produce more turnovers than Jackson.
In my book, Rosenfels gets the slight edge as the Vikes head into training camp. But that could change dramatically depending on what we see in training camp and the preseason.
If Jackson comes out with guns blazing, I think you've gotta go with the hot hand and hope the kid can sustain it. If you don't think he can handle the pressure and you see a repeat of the first and second weeks of last season on the horizon, I think you're left with little choice but to go with the veteran.
This is gonna be fun. The offseason intrigue continues -- transitioning from a selfish guy who has at long last entered irrelevancy to a competition between T-Jack and Sage that could legitimately go either way. I'm interested to hear who your early favorite is in the comments and poll.
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For me it's Jackson all the way
I’ve been saying this all offseason. Jackson is entering his 4th season. That’s the same season where Tony Romo and Drew Brees suddenly clicked. I think the T Jack we saw late last season was the same one that will show up to camp this year and I think his inconsistency is finally behind him. With some better receivers (Harvin, a healthy Rice and the surprising Jaymar Johnson) and a bit better protection, I expect Jackson to have a breakout year.
Jackson has handled nothing but scrutiny his entire career, and this isn’t the first time that he’s had to deal with the team pursuing Favre to usurp him. I believe he can handle it mentally.
ROMO and BREES
Those two are your arguments which one has yet to win a big game. Yes it is undeniable they are quality QBS but look at their records in big games. They are the biggest choke artists in the league.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Jul 29, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Now that Favre is out of the picture (for now)
Of course, I’m talking about the older-than-30 Favre, not the under-30 Favre, when I reference him as a choke artist.
Also, I’m also talking about when it really counts, in the big games (including, but not limited to, the playoffs).
The glass is more than half-full.
T-Jack here too
I think there is something to be said for continuing to develop, and for allowing a player the opportunity to do that. If Sage is genuinely better than T-Jack, then it should play out and he should be the choice. But if they are fairly comparable, then I think you should go with the guy whose been there and has developed and gotten much better. Granted, T-Jack saw some tough defense from Philly last year and it got to him. But now, the playoff scene will be expected whereas last year it was completely new to him.
Also, one other note on the two. With Sage having been a backup in the league as long as he has, I think seeing him play demonstrates what you can expect to get. With T-Jack, we still don’t know what he is fully capable of, but you can see that the “flashes of brilliance” that some commentators have referred to have been more frequent as he has gained more experience.
Sage starting would be good for Jackson
Jackson needs to develop. Whether he did that in the off-season, will do it by the end of preseason, or longer remains to be seen. But it’s obvious that his play is too inconsistent to not develop further. He has skills, no one can question that. But you need to be able to use those skills on a consistant basis for it to matter. At the beginning of last year, it was a lack of confidence that caused him to play poorly. When he came back, the Vikings were real good at not putting the game in his hands too much.
I went and looked at a lot of highlights of Sage this morning on NFL.com. He did not blow me away but he did do a couple things. He ran play action pretty well and he did not hesitate. He was making the throws. That alone is enough in my book to give him a shot.
I think there is still a battle to be waged for sure. But unless it becomes painfully clear Jackson is ready, I think you put him on the shelf for now.
"He was making the throws"
Look at how far we’ve fallen as Vikings fans when that phrase doesn’t seal the deal all by itself. As if a QB’s job is to be athletic first and only occasionally show flashes of brilliance…or run around while holding the ball too long before fumbling it away…or to lock down on 1 WR until the defenders figure it out and turn a pick-six…or to be a work in progress while the rest of the team gets too old.
that’s right! it’s superstar or nothing baby!
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Logic isn't on your side
Try this thought on: if one is going to spend AT LEAST 4-5 years developing a QB, shouldn’t he be at least above average? That sort of investment should produce a top 12-15, if not a top 10 QB.
Maybe polishing a turd for 4-5 years makes sense to you, but in that amount of time, all of the good players from year 1 have moved on to other teams, become less effective or retired (and been replaced with less effective rookies! There is also an opportunity cost of missing out on a better young QB in years 2-4 of attempting to teach fundamental skills to a worse/less effective QB than getting a better QB whose existing skills could be maximized in the remaining or fewer years.
i would agree with all of that if they actually had spent 3 years developing him thus far. playing 2 games your rookie season is all fine and good when you know the season is lost anyway. but he shouldn’t have been the starter in his second year even though i thought he did fairly well under the circumstances. then in year 3 he gets the rug pulled out from under him. if you’re going to start the guy then you’ve got to let him develop. then when you finally do let him play again you handcuff him so it’s easier for defenses to t-off on him and he can’t show what he can do.
give me something man! this is just more speculation and hypotheticals on your part.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 31, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
More on logic and opportunity cost
In various threads, you’ve said both of these things:
- that TJ was “thrown to the wolves”
- that TJ doesn’t have enough experience
TRUTH:
+ you can’t make both of those statements without contradicting yourself anyway.
+ He has started more games than several other project/small school QBs at this point in his career.
+ Those less-experienced comparable QBs were outperforming him by now (including Tyler Thigpen’s year 2 in 2008 with a TERRIBLE team > TJ’s 2006).
+ If anything, TJ was given a handful of easy opponents at the end of last year (WORST TEAM EVER, Falcons’ average or worse passing D, Cards def which gave up 6 TD passes to Favre, NYG backups).
+ When the rug was pulled out from under him, he had 16 NFL starts under his belt and more than 2 years’ worth of training camps, film study, workouts, practices, etc.
Back to my point earlier in this thread: the team doesn’t exist to develop the QB for 3-5 throwaway seasons. The QB should be competent (able to make the throws) from his from his first season as a starter and lead the team to victory (Tony Romo, Matt Cassel, Matt Ryan, etc.). That only happens if the QB is actually GOOD, though. Even though some of these examples didn’t play as early as TJ, I believe that their coaches were seeing better reads and decisions in practices all along.
The Vikings have passed on Tyler Thigpen, Byron Leftwich, David Carr and possibly Mark Sanchez, to name a few in the time that they have gone all in on a QB carousel of TJ, Kelly Holcomb, and Gus Frerotte.
Obviously, TJ will have a chance to win the job again in the next couple of months, and he could finally be effective if he does, but starting this year, the “needs more time” argument is really self-defeating. He’s had PLENTY of time, and he needs to play like it.
Bear in mind that the first 4-5 games will be against easy opponents as well.
I’d give you something if you seemed to get on the same page at some point.
+ you can’t make both of those statements without contradicting yourself anyway.
why can’t i? starting too early doesn’t make you experienced. the two are mutually exclusive not contradictatory.
+ He has started more games than several other project/small school QBs at this point in his career.
he has started more games than a ton of other qbs from all schools. most of whom are no longer even in the league. again that says nothing about his experience.
+ Those less-experienced comparable QBs were outperforming him by now (including Tyler Thigpen’s year 2 in 2008 with a TERRIBLE team > TJ’s 2006).
when did i ever say tj is or would be better than any qb with equal, less, or more experience? you keep comparing thigpen vs tjack in their respective year 2 yet you yourself compared them favorably in another post.
+ If anything, TJ was given a handful of easy opponents at the end of last year (WORST TEAM EVER, Falcons’ average or worse passing D, Cards def which gave up 6 TD passes to Favre, NYG backups).
first of all, no one is given anything in the nfl. second, there are no easy opponents. those teams didn’t come out on the field and say ’let’s take it easy cause tjack’s in the game’ those teams came to play. first team, second team, eighth team i don’t care. that is about the lamest arguement on this list.
+ When the rug was pulled out from under him, he had 16 NFL starts under his belt and more than 2 years’ worth of training camps, film study, workouts, practices, etc.<\blockquote>
ok? you’re point? what does 16 starts and 2 training camps have to do with the fact that the coach didn’t let him play? you have to let a young qb learn through his mistakes. year 2 was too early but it happened. if chili had let him play through the season (and i’m sorry but there’s no way he does worse than gus) then we’d have a better more seasoned qb at this point. and if he took a step back or imploded then he’s done stop wasting time on him. but if he got better as he’s done every year, leave him in and let him get even better.
all teams develop qbs. every single year. some prospects take longer than 3-5 years. if chili didn’t have some plan in place to bring tjack along properly that’s his fault not tj’s. and how do we know cassel and ryan are the next anderson? one good year doesn’t mean your good (i have my doubts about cassel, pats system is good and only a 2nd and a cast off?) . and i’d take tj over romo come december any day.
the vikings have passed on a lot of qbs, there must be reason for that. is it tj making the call or chili? they must have their reasons. maybe their being patient with the development of their qb.
last year was only the third year of the revamped minnesota vikings. year 3 of a rebuilding project and we went to the playoffs. i’d call that successful. i think now we are done rebuilding and are ready to compete on a yearly basis.
i agree that this year tj needs to show it. i’ve said that all along. but he’s got to have the opportunity to show it. chili can’t be playing musical qbs this season. if he does it will be a disappointing season.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 31, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry about leaving the quote on that last one.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 31, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
To clarify, my main point in this thread is that the QB who can make the throws should start.
1) Experience/starting early: Look, my point is that the guy who can make all the throws is the best QB, always. That is probably why Thigpen was already as good as, if not better than, Tarvaris Jackson when comparing year 2s. They were “thrown to the wolves” at the same stage, and Thigpen proved superior (but still perhaps not good enough to have a career as an NFL starter, which also speaks volumes about TJ). I can’t believe that I apparently need to say this, but starting early is a huge advantage toward gaining experience.
2) Yes, the low quality of his recent experience at the end of last season is probably another reason to think less of TJ.
3) The point of comparing TJ and Thigpen is that all excuses related to “needs more time to develop TJ” or “just commit to TJ and let him develop” ignore the fact that the Minnesota Vikings drafted another I-AA QB, but passed on him to waste future years with TJ rather than let the 2 compete for the job.
4) Tarvaris Jackson was indeed GIVEN the job in 2007 and 2008, and poorly disguised by trading for Kelly Holcomb and Bollinger in 2007 and signing Gustav in 2008. In both years, the coaching staff had planned on playing TJ or 2 below replacement level QBs. 12 other teams thought that the Lions were an easy team to beat, and I do believe that the coaching staff was aware of the low quality of defenses TJ would face when he got his job back during an injury to Gustav. (Either way, the coaches GAVE him the job back by 1 or both of those.)
5)
you have to let a young qb learn through his mistakes. year 2 was too early but it happened. if chili had let him play through the season (and i’m sorry but there’s no way he does worse than gus) then we’d have a better more seasoned qb at this point.
Not all QBs make the same degree of mistakes at the same rate of frequency, so your rule should not be applied equally to all QBs. Why would Chilly give and take away the starting QB job unless he believed that TJ could very well be worse than Gustav, given that so much of Chilly’s reputation was staked on TJ?
Earlier, you’d said that he wasn’t given anything, but here you’re saying that he was given playing time too early. Plus, coming off a 6-10 2006, the schedule was already favorable in 2007 plus an extra game vs. the Lions.
TJ could have done worse than Gustav, and in fact, he did. Gus never fumbled as many times in a game as TJ did vs. the Falcons, for example.
if he got better as he’s done every year, leave him in and let him get even better.
That is in fact a big IF. But hey, what about striving to be a winning team? I think that should come first, and why don’t you?
He’s never been a very good QB. 25% of quality starts in 2007 (against a below average schedule) is not very encouraging, nor is 40% in 2008 given that both were against 2 of the worst 3 defenses in the NFL that year. That means that we could maybe look forward to 8-9 quality starts this year, or almost as good as Rex Grossman in his one and only very best season. (See? We’re still not up to the level of an undeniably solid career NFL starter, even with this optimistic projection. Why plan to spend 2-4 MORE years on this guy’s issues when other potentially better QBs are out there?)
6)
all teams develop qbs. every single year. some prospects take longer than 3-5 years.
No, they don’t. Many teams sign free agents and never play this game with the rest of their teambuilding hanging in the balance. The Chiefs tried to develop Brodie Croyle, and found Tyler Thigpen instead. Then they traded for Matt Cassel. Before that, it was Elvis Grbac/Steve Bono/Joe Montana fromt he Niners and Trent Green from the Rams and Steve DeBerg from the Browns…that is one organization which has not really developed a QB in team history.
In 3-5 years, many have not developed at all and are lucky to be backups or broadcasters.
if chili didn’t have some plan in place to bring tjack along properly that’s his fault not tj’s.
So you’re saying now that it was a mistake to let him play through his mistakes from the last 2 games of 2006 through all of 2007? You’ve made this same contradiction so many times, complaining about throwing him to the wolves and also saying that he should just play and play and play through his mistakes until he develops. WINNING is the prime directive in the NFL. That’s why good teams bring in QUALITY competition for starting jobs vs. young QBs and dont’ start any QB who isn’t competent and wouldn’t keep giving extra chances to a QB who did make so many mistakes.
and how do we know cassel and ryan are the next anderson? one good year doesn’t mean your good (i have my doubts about cassel, pats system is good and only a 2nd and a cast off?) . and i’d take tj over romo come december any day.
Very true. One bad year could be a down year or the end of the road for a QB, especially if the team is otherwise ready to win and the QB was never consistently above average anyway. Cassel and Ryan could be Grbac and Roethlisberger, too, but they’ve already shown more than TJ.
I believe that Chilly has passed on too many QBs because he is stubborn if not delusional about TJ, and I think Rosenfels is probably going to start.
The Vikings WERE a playoff team before Chilly got here, so it’s more like 3 years to get back to where we were.
If Chilly plays musical QBs, it will be to give TJ the easier opponents and/or because of unavoidable injuries.
I voted for Sage
But if Jackson shows improvement from last year, it should be him. Ya know, it doesn’t matter to me as long as the coaches put the best guy out there.
"Skol pa fiskande"
It is being named the starter TJack can not handle
If he is the starter just do not tell him ahead of time so he can not think about it.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Jul 29, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
True, maybe the best plan of action would be
to make Sage the starter every week and bring Jackson off the bench on the second series (barring a big TD drive by Sage to open the game). How long would it take for everyone to see the pattern :) ?
It would be like Steve Spurrier never left the NFL.
by Bodysuit Man on Jul 29, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm
Rotating quarterbacks. Didn’t someone try that once?
"Skol pa fiskande"
by NobleSavage on Jul 29, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Please
I was kidding do not even start this conversation. Some front office idiot may agree.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Jul 29, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Start the music
I can hear it now Wagner’s Ride of the Valkyries’ as the RosenCopter enters the stadium. Then over the speakers we hear
“I love the smell of cheese (bear, lion etc) in the morning, it’s the smell of a Viking Victory”
Skol Vikings
by SouthernNorseman on Jul 29, 2009 10:19 AM CDT reply actions
Who shows the best in preseason
It’s not going to be an easy decision because the simple fact is which “chilly” is going to show up and call plays.
Neither one of these guys will succede if Chilly calls plays like he did last year. Gus was better at reading defenses last year over Tjax and had less pressure to perform at first. When it came to throwing decent passes (go back and look if you can) a lot of them were behind receivers.
Many of the decisions regaurding our QBs last year were basically for Chilly to keep his job. He lost confidence in Tjax early because the bug was in his(chilly) ear about what the vikings should accomplish last year. When Gus was folding under by the Detroit game he yanked him. Gus gave the Lions secondary their only interceptions for the year. In both games.
Its up to Chilly if we win or lose this season not really who we have at QB.
by midnightwonder on Jul 29, 2009 10:24 AM CDT reply actions
I've seen enough of Jackson already
so I’m hoping Sage starts. While I have a good idea of what to expect from him from his previous stops in the league, at least he’s more of a relative unknown to Vikings fans.
I don’t think either one of them is ever going to be a threat to do much in the playoffs, or even lead a team there. There also doesn’t really seem to be much of a difference in their level of skill or leadership as a QB. They are probably on such equal grounds that only a really terrible preseason will dictate that the other wins the job. But I think by the time the season is drawing to an end, they will both have seen the field quite a bit.
This season should just further illustrate the need to have a real plan at quarterback. We’re one of the few teams in the league that doesn’t have one right now.
>> There also doesn’t really seem to be much of a difference in their level of skill or leadership as a QB.
They are really quite different. Sage is a pretty well spoken, articulate, person. You can hear it in his quotes. He also got a 36 wonderlic score. Jackson would need to rely more on his general popularity. His score was in the high teens.
Give Sage a chance. I know we’ve had our share of QBs come and go. But you have to give them a try.
Best QB Wins
And not just training camp, it HAS to go into the pre-season, where both guys can go up against hostile opposition. Even JDB looked competent when playing against people who wanted him to do well. Let the best QB win.
My guess is that Sage will win it… not because of significantly greater physical ability, but because he’s got it mentally. He knows how to read the defenses, he can pick up a blitz, he can audible, he can downcheck, he can do all those things that an NFL caliber QB is expected to do very well at. T-Jack hasn’t demonstrated a mastery of those skills yet. Maybe he’ll have them, but more likely he won’t yet. We have no way of knowing until camp begins, if T-Jack has grown enough, mentally, to be man he was drafted to be.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Double edged sword
While T.J. has the physical skills to be a QB, as I’ve said many times, he as of yet to mature to go along with those skills. And I’ve had many people blast me with saying that it takes time. We are coming up on year 4 now, each year it’s been “He is gonna be the best”. It took a benching then injury to Gus to get him back as the starting QB. Sure, he had a few good games coming back, then the playoff game against Eagles, implosion, step backwards. At this point, it’s going to be debatable whether he will ever get past the point of being mentally consistant enough to lead a team from preseason thru regular season thru playoffs.
Sage…..I’m not impressed with him as well. Yes, I’ve used the journeyman moniker on him as others have only to be blasted for calling him that, Well, he is on team 4 and as of yet anything more then a back-up with a few starts, what does that make him? I believe T.J. has better physical skills, but with Sage, a little more depth in the head department. From the attitude Ive seen, he knows he’s not the greatest, will never be one of the greatest but happy to perhaps be given a legit chance as a starter. My concern with him, INT’s.
Sure, we have All Day, problem is, if we keep using All Dayy All The Time, he is going to be ending a career to quickly. We need alot better balance. And it is and should come down to which ever one shows that more balance and who the receivers and RB’s are more comfortable with. If it’s T.J., then it’s T.J., if it’s Sage, so b it, but I can also see Booty possibly getting into the mix as well if things get really hairy.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk"
jackson
this his year. sage is a good qb but jackson has a chance to be a great one.
Head Cheerleader of the official Matty I Fan Club
"Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting."- Man on Fire
by Davone_Is_BessT on Jul 29, 2009 11:16 AM CDT reply actions
How many more?
If he does not do it this year the same guys will be saying the same thing next year, and the year after that, and the year after that and the year after that.
Come on chilly I know this has to be you. Where in the hell did you come up with that handle?
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Jul 29, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
whos chilly?
wtf r u sayin about a handle?
Head Cheerleader of the official Matty I Fan Club
"Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting."- Man on Fire
by Davone_Is_BessT on Jul 29, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Chilly
Is Brad Childress, and the handle comment is me showing my age referencing CB handle or your screen name. I guess I am to old for some of you.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Jul 29, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Everyone has a CHANCE to be a great one
but the odds are longer on Bruce Gradkowski ending up being a great QB than the odds of Mark Sanchez doing it. There are the Kurt Warners and Jake Delhommes of the NFL that defied all expectations, but the reality is that if a guy doesn’t show you much in three years of the easiest offense in the NFL, he isn’t likely to ever show you much. Childress evidently agrees with this assessment since he wanted Sage for two years (and now has him) and courted Favre so feverishly. All those little “Flashes” that some see from Jackson don’t add up to a good QB.
It’s possible Jackson could turn out to be a good QB but is it any more or less likely—given what we’ve seen form both guys—that he does rather than Sage ending up doing the same?
by Bodysuit Man on Jul 29, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Wait what?
“this his year. sage is a good qb but jackson has a chance to be a great one.”
I’m curious as to what leads you to think that?
by packallday555 on Jul 30, 2009 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Rosenfels, vs. Jackson,
I would go with Rosenfels, simply because jackson just doesn’t get it. Jump passes?, when you have a off. line that is better suited for a pocket passer, (Rosenfels) than a scrambling one, (jackson) you go with what is right for the team, you have the best running tandem in pro football, you do not have to pass every down, minnesota also is starting to get a decent receiver squad togeather. it will open up the running game, and vice-versa, Rosenfels, should start simply because of his ability as a pocket passer, I would then start grooming JD Booty as a possible starter in a few years to come, (also a pocket type passer, no off line wants to keep scrambling around to protect their QB.
Remember
Before you start with all of the “Oh these poor professional athletes who get paid millions to do something everyone of us dreams of didn’t get their egos stroked” BS….If either of these two gentlemen had the stones to grab a starting job by playing well then we wouldn’t have had to court a soon-to-be 40-year-old to be our season/stadium/franchise(?) savior. I grew up from the train of thought that nothing in this world is handed to you. (Save the Paris Hiltons of the world), you have to fight like hell and show your superiors that you are the best option. Deal with it.
by Jepp The Viking on Jul 29, 2009 11:33 AM CDT reply actions
I guess
I’ve come to the realization that T-Jack is just plain stupid. If you can’t learn to read a D after 3 years of constant study, you are lacking in mental faculties. Christ people, that is almost enough time for me to attain an M.D. Sage by default.
by Jepp The Viking on Jul 29, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
so...
you’re going to vote for the guy who’s had 8 seasons to become a starter for various teams with various systems and has failed over the guy that had 3 progressively better seasons and is still (arguably) unknown?
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
and that says nothing to you?
jackson has earned more starts in 3 years than sage has in 8.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
quality of the splinters in his butt from sitting on the bench?
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I go with sage or JD just because it is taking so many years for TJ to figure out the play book and be trusted enough to run the entire offense. Understanding the offense and being aloud to run the entire package is key. IF TJ has learned it now he will have a chance, other wise it is Sage or JD. After two years if you do not have it your out!
by montana vikes fan on Jul 29, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions
see above. sage is an 8 year veteran and still hasn’t proven he can be a starter.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Has Sage proven he can’t be a starter? No. He has not been given a chance either way. I would argue Jackson has been given that chance and he has proven he’s not ready.
how can you say this?
He has not been given a chance either way.
has he not been in training camp for the past 8 seasons? has he not played in preseason games over the past 8 seasons? if he were any better than a backup, he would have beaten out one of those guys over an 8 year period?
it doesn’t have to be a competition for a qb to go out and perform well and force the coaches to re-evaluate their start. sage has never done that.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
After Sage’s first year in Houston, they paid a Cutler like deal to get Shaub. I don’t think Houston had any intention of giving Sage a chance to beat out Schaub. Schaub was paid to be the unquestioned starter. So I would disagree with your assessment.
There are situations where the player gets paid so much, that they are the starter. That doesn’t mean they don’t have to live up to expectations, if they don’t, they’re gone. But, there are a handful of players on every team that will either start or be cut. You don’t bench a guy that you invest that much in. And you don’t cut him because he has a slow camp either.
Jackson needs to step back for a year. I think he could be a great QB. I’m not sure why we have to be in such a hurry to put him on the field. I think he could be a great backup when he’s called upon.
BTW – where did you find that picture of Cutler as a Viking? I saw the Favre one’s, but yours’ is a keeper.
ok that’s one year maybe, what his excuse for riding the pine the other 7 years?
wasn’t my pic. you got me confused with someone else
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t understand your huge opposition to Sage. I’m not necessarily saying he should start, but you’re arguing pretty fiercely, as if he’s completely terrible.
In AP I trust
Just say no to Favre.
F-A-R-V-A =/= F-A-V-R-E
by FarvaForTheVikings on Jul 30, 2009 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions
no i’ve said before he’s a good backup. i just don’t get why most people would think he’s such an upgrade over tj when he’s never earned a starting job.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Because
He has shown the ability to be able to make the intermediate and deep throws. He has a good arm and is a smart guy. He can read coverages as well. Yes, he threw 10 INTs while only throwing 6 TDs but some of that is because he took chances throwing the ball up too Johnson. Also keep in mind defense played the pass first against Houston. (Which wasn’t the case at all for Jackson) He thre w picks because he just tries to do too much sometimes, and that is relatively easy to solve. Childress tells him your a game manager, we don’t need you taking risks, if you do your back on the bench.
Jackson has shown the ability to throw the deep ball, but he hasn’t shown the ability to throw the intermediate routes, and still isn’t accurate enough on his short passes. He doesn’t turn the ball over because he is trying to do too much, he turns it over because he has a low football IQ (or at least up to this point he has shown he does). When he throws picks there usually directly to the other teams player because he didn’t see the guy sitting in zone coverage, or because he telegraphs his pass. When he fumbles it’s because he holds on too the ball too long in the pocket.
Sage is a pocket passer. Jackson is somewhere in between a pocket passer and scrambler. He isn’t nearly effective enough to be considered a pocket passer, and doesn’t scramble enough to be considered a scrambler. Vick was primarily a scrambler but that was ok because it worked for him. At any time in a game he could take off and run for 40 yards. He averaged more yards per carry then he did yards per pass. (BTW- Vick’s ypc is the best in the history of the NFL) I think you guys need a “pocket passer” type QB. Someone who can make the defense pay when they bring to many people up into the box. Sage has shown he is capable of doing that, Jackson up to this point has not.
With that being said, hopefully Jackson is the starter for this season. (Or at least in week 4…)
by packallday555 on Jul 31, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions
my vote is for....
Jeff George or Ryan Leaf.
Seriously, what a lousy way to start the season. Vikes – you never cease to amaze me on just how short-sighted you can be as an organization.
my vote...
they are both garbage, and like moss said Minnesota will never win a superbowl. Just move to Los Angeles you losers!!!!!!!
BOOTY!!!
Seriously though, I think all of the QBs have the tools to keep defenses honest and let the fabulous ground game take the wins.
98-100%
First chilly only had eyes for TJack, then he knew Favre was the answer, now the Tjack googles are back on his eyes. I searched the site and could not find anyone who posted any thing good to say about Chilly and I went back a ways. I am sure someone sometime said he was great but I could not locate it, hence the 2%. IF 98% of you think Chilly is an idiot and Chilly is big on TJack how the hell is 45% of the bloggers agreeing with him on something as impotant as this. Don’t give the blind squirrel finding a nut shit either.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Jul 29, 2009 9:10 PM CDT reply actions
perhaps those of us in the 45% category think chilly has hampered tjack’s developement with his limited offense, bad playcalling, and indecision over who to start.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
got to go with sage
although you can make a good arguement for either qb, i have to go with sage at this point. i’m a long way from minn, & don’t always get alot of good viking info, (except on the daily norsemen) but i have to question tj’s heart & mind. before all the farve hype, he was given the chance of a lifetime to become a starting qb of a possible superbowl team. however, i’ve read reports where some of his own teammates question his work ethics. not a good way to display great leadership qualities. he should be working his ass off more than anyone else on the team. i have not heard any comments from any teammembers regarding sage. i would actually like to see booty get a chance as well. this point may be irrelevant if childress doesn’t change his way, but IF he should ever allow a qb to audible a playcall, then i would give the edge to sage, because tj has never done that before, & may not even know how. unfortunately, i can’t ever see ironhead childress doing that, therefore stiffling our offense to complete predictability. looking forward to a great year though.
by indianavikesfan on Jul 30, 2009 7:20 AM CDT reply actions
No one has ever questioned Jackson work ethic. Childress and teammates have commended him on occasion for his work ethic. There was a misunderstanding with comments that Phat Pat made months ago, but he even came out and said that his words were misconstrued. Not only that, but guess who the first person to report to camp was? You can have questions to his ability to grow as a QB, but no one has questioned his work ethic.
thank you for the info. being a few states away, we don’t get to hear all those things. this area is full of foul-smelling bear fans. WAY TOO close to the stinky, er, i mean windy city. anyway, i guess it will come down to our coaching staff’s play-calling, since i don;t believe that either qb will get the chance to ad-lib at all. do you see booty having a chance in the near future?
by indianavikesfan on Jul 31, 2009 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions
wow
i’ve read a lot of stuff here that doesn’t make much sense.
every is say tj has had enough time to show he’s got what it takes and that his time has run out. that we should turn our offense over to the new guy who has been in the league almost 3 times as long as tj and has yet to earn a starting job.
8 seasons! and he couldn’t convince any coach in any of those years that he’s starting material? but suddenly he’s starting material for the vikings? why? based on what?
we traded a 4th round pick for sage. you don’t trade a 4th round pick for a starting qb who’s been in the league 8 years. you trade a 4th round pick for a decent backup. sage is a decent backup. he has been determined to be a decent backup for the last 8 years by various coaching staffs around the league.
did he suddenly get bit by a radioactive spider or something? where is all this sage love coming from. houston thought a 4th round draft pick was better than what they had as a backup qb.
meanwhile, we’ve watched tj get better every single year. his first year he played in 2 games at the end of a lost season and he looked like a rookie project. his second year he started 12 games and went 8-4. (sage is 10-6 in the 12 games he’s started). he looked good, he looked bad, he looked terrible at times. he still went 8-4. in his third season he was yanked after 2 games so the coach wouldn’t lose his job. then he came back at the end of the season and won his job back based on his play. he looked much better at the end of last season than he looked all year when started 12 games. no one can deny that tjack has gotten better each year.
so, the majority of people think that the 8 year vet who has basically topped out as far as potential goes and who has never displayed the ability of a starting qb to any of his coaches over the last 8 years is better than the division II project that is entering his 4th season having shown steady progression in his play and still has untapped potential.
i don’t get where people are coming up with this conclusion. did you expect the second coming of fran in tj’s second year or something? does everyone expect this guy to come out of alabama st. and be able to learn the intricacies of various nfl blitz packes in what amounts to less than 2 seasons worth of games? (played in 25, started 19)
oh he threw a pick in a playoff game so that means he imploded. did anyone see the philly offense push our vaunted defense up and down the field in that game (69% completions) ? did anyone see the horrible special teams play in that game? (vikings avg starting position – 18, eagles – 33, vikings punt return yards – 1(i’ll spell so you won’t think it’s a typo – one)) did anyone see the crappy play calling? it’s hard to move your offense when the coach will only let you run 3 plays. (and if any uses the arguement that the coach had to because tj can’t handle a full playbook – then why for god’s sake did the coach start the guy? or why not bring in gus later? either way you want to argue it – bad coaching decisions)
everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and the upcoming camp battle will determine the situation. but if any seriously thinks sage will be our starter come opening day, you’re in a for a let down. there’s just no way.
by iseepurplepeople on Jul 30, 2009 12:36 PM CDT reply actions
Wide Open
The bottom line is it’s going to be an all out competition in training camp and the guy that looks the best in the preseason will get the nod. Sit back and enjoy the show.
You have to see
that TJ just doesnt have the brain on the field to be a starter…hes had to many chances..
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