About That Rotator Cuff...

by Anthony21 on Aug 20, 2009 6:00 PM CDT in Favregeddon Comment 59 comments

If you're like me, you'd see Pro Football Talk's headline, "Partial tear in Favre's cuff likely to worsen," and you'd get worried. It's an aspect of the Favre storyline that's gone under the radar: Dr. James Andrews, while operating on Favre's arm in the spring, found a small tear in the quarterback's rotator cuff. Tom Curran spoke with a doctor about the injury and was told something that could make Vikings fans concerned about Favre's health:

"Cleared to play does not mean 'cleared to play well'," said the medical source. "He's at high risk [for greater tearing] both because of trauma and his style of play in which he will go downfield or throw with a lot of velocity. He's going to stress his cuff."

But wait a second. While this doctor was essentially saying that it's hardly a safe bet that Favre can make it through a complete season, keep in mind that this person has neither operated on Favre nor examined the tear. Dr. Andrews has done both and was more reassuring about Favre's arm.

On Friday, Andrews called Cook to say that if Favre wanted to play, he should.

"He can’t promise that it won’t get worse, but Dr. Andrews basically said it should be OK to get through the season. Basically, he said, ‘Hey, if you want to play, go do it,’ " Cook said.

I'll trust Andrews' word over the anonymous doctor's. There's no getting around the fact that the rotator cuff tear is a valid question mark heading into the season, but it shouldn't be overlooked that Andrews trusts Favre's ability to make it through the season. Fears about his health could very well be overblown.

None of this changes my opinion that Favre's health remains the biggest obstacle between this team and championship contention. But that's a significant improvement over where this team stood on Monday, when the overall performance from the quarterback position was the biggest obstacle. Now it's just the durability of the guy under center. It's something the Vikings need to be cautious about, but hopefully Andrews' assessment is right.

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From what Dr. Andrews said, he has been playing with a torn RC for some time now.

Likely, it was torn in ’07 when he had that right arm injury in Nov/Dec. At least, that is my assumption.

Either way, he has been playing on it for at least a year or so. If it was a cause for concern, we would have seen some effects of it at the beginning of last season with the Jets. But I saw nothing from those games that raises any red flags.

Especially since he averaged over 70% completion.

by Bjorno on Aug 20, 2009 6:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

No red flags in leading the league in INT’s last year? No red flags in having more TD’s then INT’s only once in the last 4 seasons? No red flags in 37 fumbles in the last 4 seasons? Not trying to be an ass, We’ve agreed on alot of stuff, but I see alot of Red Flags here even without the arm which does concern me alot.

"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk"

by VikesFaninNM on Aug 21, 2009 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rec.

Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute

by mjschaefer on Aug 21, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Play it again, Sam. Play that Bobby McFerrin CD. You know the one.

Yes, Dr. Andrews noted in his assessment that there were calcifications on the tear in Favre’s rotator cuff, which indicates it has been torn for an extended period of time.

Nobody wrote news articles predicting that Vick would be running a dog ring soon or that Plaxico was at risk for turning his leg into a target range.

As Mark Twain once said, “I’ve lived through many terrible things in my life, some of which have actually happened.”

Don’t worry. Be happy.

by Elgar on Aug 20, 2009 6:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey, let’s not restrict Bobby McFerrin to the “one hit wonder” that is Don’t Worry, Be Happy.

The guy is a musical genius, and here is proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=codmxk7uLv8

by Bjorno on Aug 20, 2009 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Double Standard

If Favre had been a lifelong Viking and was now joining the Packers, everything in the press would be on the up-and-up. But since it’s the other way around, all we hear is a lot of whining, criticism, and general doom-and-gloom-debby-downerism.

Thus I salute the fortress,
Safe from terror and dread.
Wife, follow me
and dwell with me in Valhalla!

by Franciscan Viking on Aug 20, 2009 6:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Was Cleopatra Not the Queen of Denial?

I suspect the gloom is largely a lot of anti-Viking NFL fans and writers are whistling past the grave yard. It’s like the Vikings have unveiled their fully operational Death Star, and some people have gone into a state of denial. A Kubler-Ross book won’t be required to get them to acceptance.

Heads up: Better have Luke’s cell number handy, my dear opponents. There’s a strange disturbance in the Force. We’re going ot crank this puppy up and see who squeals with pain.

Stay tuned, sports fans. We’ll have all the highlight reels rolling for you right after the break.

by Elgar on Aug 20, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

“Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battlestation.”

“You may fire at will commander.”

by Hoss-Drone on Aug 20, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

“Don’t be too proud of the this technological terror you’ve created. The ability to destroy [the packers] is insignificant compared to the power of the [norse].”

“Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.”

by iseepurplepeople on Aug 21, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice blend of metaphors and analogies

Let me add another, with Marcellus and Horatio being modern members of the press on the trail of Hamlet Favre:

Marcellus:
Let’s follow. ’Tis not fit thus to obey him.

Horatio:
Have after. To what issue will this come?

Marcellus:
Something is rotten in the state of Minnesota.

Horatio:
Heaven will direct it.

Marcellus:
Nay, let’s follow him. [Exeunt.]

Thus I salute the fortress,
Safe from terror and dread.
Wife, follow me
and dwell with me in Valhalla!

by Franciscan Viking on Aug 21, 2009 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Standard

I don’t see it as much of a double standard, as much as people just voicing their opinion… which makes it simply standard. About 75% (just a guess, no actual proof) of the analysts seem to be applauding the Vikings for getting Favre and are making them the favorite now. So I’m not entirely sure of this “whining, criticism, and general doom-and-gloom-debby-downerism” you speak of.

There are people who don’t think Favre is the answer (myself included, but that’s another story) and they voice that opinion. There are others who also have been hating on Childress and the management for the handling of the situation since Favre pretty much had his way with the Vikings and played them like a fool as he probably will for this entire season. I’m predicting 223 INT (give or take 1 or 2) in the 2 games against the Packers as he tries to get revenge on them and throw into quadruple coverage instead of his standard double as Childress continues to let him play because he evidently can’t say no to Brett.

But if you recall, Green Bay was given a bunch of terrible press when Favre initially retired for how they handled it. The Packers let the situation continue to dwindle on and on and were constantly criticized for it. Remember when they offered him 20 million to simply sit on his tracker for the rest of his life and shut up? When that was reported Ted Thompson and Mike Mac were the joke of the league for 2 weeks.

I think you’re clearly overreacting and not looking at the whole story because this clearly is not a set in stone fantastic move for the Vikings (could be great, could be terrible) and the way they handled the situation is questionable at best. So to say that if he went to Green Bay from Minnesota it would be all peachy is a joke.

by uofmike on Aug 20, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Maybe it's me

But the “noise” from the press about all this—not to mention our own veterans such as Cris Carter and Fran Tarkenton—seems to be largely negative. There was also a poll on Foxpsports today asking the public how many wanted to see the Viking/Favre experiment succeed and how many wanted to see it flop and it was split down the middle at 50/50. Now I know this is the public and not the media, but I would guess the media is at most 50/50—not 75/25 as you suggested—and probably even less than that, who want to see this experiment succeed.

Thus I salute the fortress,
Safe from terror and dread.
Wife, follow me
and dwell with me in Valhalla!

by Franciscan Viking on Aug 20, 2009 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you could be right

but I said 75% applauded them for getting Favre… not how people wanted it to end. Anyone who isn’t directly a supporter of the Vikings will probably be wanting this to fail. For no reason other than they are annoyed that Favre is still being talked about because Childress has no spine and can’t say no. Well at least when he says no, he lies… which might make him and Favre a perfect match.

I personally would like to see the Vikings miss the playoffs on the last play of the season, like against AZ, but this time on a Favre INT. Just so this can really come full circle, they would get exactly what they had coming to them.

by uofmike on Aug 21, 2009 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would say it would be almost 90-10 that the media would want Favre to succeed.

Their job is to bring news that people want to read. For some reason, people love to hear about Favre as much as they say they hate it. If Favre flops, and the Vikes go nowhere, that is a news story for a week or so.

If Favre takes the Vikes to the Super Bowl and wins, it will be a story for another year at least as we wait for the 3rd annual Brett Favre retirement fiasco.

You would be crazy to say the media does not want him to succeed.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe they will want him to succeed, i.e., will jump on the bandwagon with the rest of us, if the scenario you outlined comes to pass, but I’m talking about right now, and I don’t see it anywhere near 90-10.

Thus I salute the fortress,
Safe from terror and dread.
Wife, follow me
and dwell with me in Valhalla!

by Franciscan Viking on Aug 21, 2009 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just don't play him as much...

I think if Chilly doesn’t play him all game every game, he should be fine. I think the best thing to do is let him start every game and pull him at the half if we have control of the game. I think Sage could go in and keep a lead…. but then again I’m not a head coach!! If they can just keep Favre injury free and somewhat rested at the end of the season, we could really do some damage in the playoffs…

by shift47_brada on Aug 20, 2009 7:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

There is a saying in the NFL: “If you have two quarterbacks, you actually have none.”

QB play is as much about timing and rhythm with the receivers as it is knowing the playbook. If you are constantly switching between QB’s, then you are interrupting that timing.

The idea is nice in theory. But if it actually worked in the NFL, you would see it happening in the NFL.

by Bjorno on Aug 20, 2009 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

You are absolutely right… I guess I didn’t think about it like that

by shift47_brada on Aug 20, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't think of what team....

But wasn’t there a team within the last couple or few years that was doing it with a reasonable amount of success? It wasn’t 50/50 I don’t think, but I feel like I remember this happening recently?

I agree though, I don’t think we should split the position at all.

by Figgs on Aug 21, 2009 7:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, the Dolpins broke out the Wildcat formation, but they still used Pennington as a QB and Roddy White as sort of a “tosser” more than a passer.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the 2007 cardinals. warner would come in as a reliever.

by iseepurplepeople on Aug 21, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Weather 50-50

Let’s play Favre in the dome games and mild-weather outdoor games and the backups in the cold weather games.

No, I’m serious. Those bitterly cold games are tough on an old rickety guy like Favre while they only toughen up the younger QBs.

But what we really need to do is to ensure we win the NFC so that all our playoff games are in the HomerDome so that Favre has an easy time of it throughout the playoffs and into the SuperBowl

Thus I salute the fortress,
Safe from terror and dread.
Wife, follow me
and dwell with me in Valhalla!

by Franciscan Viking on Aug 21, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder

If we are all being sold the same shit from the media. Because Curt Warner is damn near Brett’s age, doesn’t hold the consecutive starts streak, and we don’t hear a lick about his durability.

by Jepp The Viking on Aug 20, 2009 7:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Warner had surgery on his hip in the off season… and you are right! NO ONE is telling the Cards he won’t make it.
Of course… he has ‘flop’ for a backup…
geez… isn’t this the same story line?

I believe the 'push off' cost us 'our' SuperBowl...
I believe you 'go for the win'... instead of 'taking a knee'...

by ArizonaVikingsFan on Aug 20, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He has also played 6 less seasons and doesn’t have the same wear and tear. Which is the same argument that people use to argue that although Michael Turner carried for over 370 times, he won’t have to worry about the “370 curse” because he didn’t take a toll on his body his first 5 years. Unlike say, Larry Johnson or Shaun Alexander who carried the ball a lot for their teams the years before having seasons with 370 carries. Guys who have played as long as Warner would be Delhomme, P. Manning, Culpepper, Pennington, Brady, McNabb, and Hasselbeck.

by vikingfuture8816 on Aug 20, 2009 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cuff a concern

I certainly agree that Favre’s health (and not just in his throwing arm) is the biggest concern in this whole scenario. Acceptance by the team, his desire to play and other concerns are already melting away. But he isn’t going to be getting up from hits as quickly as he did all those years. Protecting him is the same as protecting a successful season. The lineman have to adopt the attitude of the linemen in Green Bay who didn’t want to be the one end the streak.

As to Warner, didn’t he have a few years in the Arena Football League as well, or are you counting them in his total?

Joe O
Minnesota Vikings Examiner
Go Vikes!

by Joe O on Aug 20, 2009 9:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I took his totals from NFL.com. Is a debate really necessary to compare playing in the arena football league to playing in the NFL? Completely different games.

by vikingfuture8816 on Aug 20, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

bjorno

i read same thing you just said,dr andrew said favre rotater cuff was cut before injury at end of last season with the jets.favre looked good at beginning of the season till the last 4 or 5 games.if childress plays the game right favre be ok.favre would not have to throw 100 times a game we have peterson and chester taylor.favre is what makes our team better,defense won’t put 8 or 9 in box with favre as our quarterback.

by subzero on Aug 20, 2009 9:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

His poor play in the last 4-5 games was due to his Biceps tendon issue, which was operated on and fixed this summer.

But I agree, he won’t have to throw near as much on this team as he did in New York.

by Bjorno on Aug 20, 2009 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re-post from another thread

*I suffered a rotator cuff injury pitching a one hitter in high school and by god did it hurt. It hurt REALLY BAD, for a long time. I had to give up baseball and just go back to averaging a 215 in bowling instead. Except I didnt go back to that. I returned to bowling that fall and my average fell to a 175. It took me 3 years to rehab my shoulder back up…..and that was going from throwing overhand for baseball and underhand for bowling. (obviously)

Logically, there is a huge difference between overhand baseball at 60+ mph and a 16 pound ball at 15-20 mp. The reality though was that the result was the same. I lost velocity and control and it took years of strength training to get it back.

My primary point though, is that the effect was immediate. The tear caused significant change right away. If Brett has a tear, and he’s been able to toss the ball hard with accuracy then I find it hard to believe the tear is having any impact.

To me the only real concern would be the tear getting worse. What I did learn though from my doctor was that rotator cuff tears do heal. If there was calcification around the tear site then chances are there was at least enough natural healing for it to not be an issue. If there is no pain, no loss in velocity or control then he’s probably a-ok.*

My personal experience tells me all I need to know about this.

by Hoss-Drone on Aug 20, 2009 9:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Andrews is universally regarded as the best in the business

he’s had that rep ever since he fixed up Tommy John. If that’s what he really believes, then that’s good enough for me

by puddnhead on Aug 20, 2009 9:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Surprise Surprise

You like Brett Favre, he fixed TJ with surgery not just looking at the injury.

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He didn’t “Fix” Favre, he merely gave his professional opinion which I will take over ANY rube or sports reporter’s word.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point exactly

He did not operate on him he just said he thought it would be Okay and how the hell would you tell that by looking.

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um, I don’t know… Because he’s an effing DOCTOR.

The guy is an expert in his field, he knows what he is doing and I am sure he has a wealth of technology at his disposal. This is one of the foremost sports doctors in the WORLD.

A simple MRI can tell you a lot about an injury. Teams use it ALL the time to determine how bad an injury is. Remember Tjack’s sprained MCL and how they determined it was a grade 1 tear and that he would be out a few weeks tops just by looking at the MRI?

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Conversation at the Docs office

Doc: Brett I have notice a tear in your rotator cuff it looks like an old injury though.
Brett: Aw shucks doc it feels okay.
Doc: I usually suggest surgery for that kind of injury for someone who throws a ball for a living Brett.
Brett: I did not even notice the pain Doc over the bicep tear.
Doc: No pain Brett?
Brett: Well it hurts a little when I do this.
Doc: Well do not do that.
Brett: Good one Doc.

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope he uses “Aw Shucks!” in the post game interviews.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Me Too

It makes me feel better about wanting to slap the shit out of him.

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like the optimism, but this worries me. The best Andrews can give us is “it should be okay?” That makes me hella nervous.

In AP I trust
F-A-R-V-A =/= F-A-V-R-E
Charles Woodson is the happiest person on earth right now.

by FarvaForTheVikings on Aug 20, 2009 11:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Whole situation makes me a bit nervous

If he gets pile-drived into the turf, or just tweaks it wrong, anything can happen with that cuff. I think we just have to bite our fingernails and hope he stays healthy. IMO, the doctor believes that under normal use of that throwing arm as a quarterback, it can last the season, which is the best we can hope for – and I trust the doctor. We just also need to hope that something crazy or unexpected doesn’t happen to aggravate it.

by Figgs on Aug 21, 2009 7:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

dont be nervous

In NY last year, he threw an avg of 32 times per game before he got hurt, and an avg of 35 times per game after he got hurt. He will only have to throw half that many times here in MN. Most of the time, he will be handing off to AP or Chester. And I’m sure a lot of the throws he does make will be of the quick, short tosses to Harvin or Shiancoe. Also, if the Vikes are leading in the 4th quarter, there is no reason that they can’t put in Sage to finish up the game. Again, if the game is in hand then we will be running the ball to take time off the clock, so timing for Sage won’t be too much of an issue. We wont need him to hit a long pass to try and score. Meanwhile BF can be sitting and resting, keeping him fresh for the next game. If we can continue this pattern throughout the season, he should be able to finish the season without too much wear and tear. GO VIKES!!

by rube6642 on Aug 21, 2009 7:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good Thing

Football is not a contact sport.

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A rotator cuff injury is not likely to happen when he is hit, or even driven into the ground. It is called “rotator” cuff for a reason.

It is injured by repetitive motion similar to the throwing of a ball, overhead swinging of a racquet or even volleyball spikes.

So long as he does not over-exert his throwing arm, we should not worry about his RC being an issue.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You mean like trying to go deep to Harvin

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He did it plenty of times last year without issue.

As stated before, there was calcification around the injury, indicating it had been injured for some time. If that is the case, then it was injured before the beginning of his season with The Jets. I saw no issues in his first 11games that would make me worry about his ability to play with a torn RC.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So we Know

It was just the tear and not the cuff that caused any pain. Man what a relief that they were able to discern the difference. Seeing how the both cause pain in the throwing motion.

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Notice how he played before he tore the biceps tendon, and how he played afterward.

Night and day.

Once the tendon was cut and the arm rehabbed, he is making the throws he did last year before the injury.

Look, it is very simple. If Dr. Andrews says he is ok to throw with it, then he is likely ok to throw with it. That does not mean it is guaranteed, just that it is likely going to be just fine.

The guy didn’t get the reputation he has by being wrong in his diagnoses.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he only said he’s okay to throw and he should be okay for an entire season.

so we go a 40 year old qb coming off arm surgery with another shoulder injury that should be okay for a season.

i’m so optomistic!

by iseepurplepeople on Aug 21, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am not concerned in the least about the surgery he had.

It’s not like his biceps tendon is going to all of a sudden reconnect with this shoulder and cause him problems, it is cut clean off.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like your explanation, but you're wrong.

I was in a rollover car accident when I was like 13, and I went up and smacked the top of the car when it was upside down, and I ended up with a rotator cuff injury and was in a sling for like 6 weeks. So, can happen by getting by being hit or driven into the ground. Perhaps less likely, but it is already injured, so could happen.

by Figgs on Aug 21, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Remember, I said “not likely”.

“not likely” =/= “not possible”.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Besides The Dome Turf is much softer then Grass

When being sacked

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, it is a bit softer.

We have the same turf at my old HS and it is pretty good stuff compared to dry ground.

Wet ground on the other hand, is much softer.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let me get this Straight

You think the Metrodome turf is softer then where he has played until now. WOW

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Give UP

I will try to talk you down you are to far gone, go ahead and jump.

by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 21, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well let’s see…

You have been bleeding purple since 74 which means you likely have not played around on “Field Turf” that was installed in the ’Dome in ’04.

This turf, made to look like grass and padded with freeze-dried chunks rubber and silica sand to help absorb impact.

Now, I don’t know how well the Dome’s turf has held up over the 5 years since it has been installed. But when I played on it, I much preferred it to grass because of it’s consistency. Not only that, but it was about as soft as well maintained lawn.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let’s clarify that I am not saying I played in the ’dome, only that I have played on “field turf” before.

by Bjorno on Aug 21, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just had my labrum repaired and the doctor told me that I also had a tear in the rotator cuff. I used to pitch in baseball. It’s a common injury for pitchers and quarterbacks, apparently. No idea Favre and I had so much in common.

Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute

by mjschaefer on Aug 21, 2009 8:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

...that wasn't a doctor

You are comparing what a doctor said to what BUS COOK said a doctor said. Those are VERY different things. Bus Cook is a douchebag, trust me. He has no problem lying (or twisting things) to get what he wants, I wouldn’t credit a single word that left his mouth!

by TrevorR on Aug 21, 2009 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs