Some in Locker Room Remain T-Jack Supporters
by Anthony21 on Aug 25, 2009 5:00 AM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings
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PrintOh no! Adam Schefter says there's dissent in the locker room! Some of the players who were standing by Tarvaris Jackson coming into training camp are still standing by him -- even after Brett Favre came to town! And the great football mind that is Mike Florio thinks T-Jack's strong performance against the Chiefs has only strengthened and encouraged the elements of the locker room that still aren't drinking the Favre Kool-Aid!
Before folks in the media start typing up their reports about a "divided locker room" and we have to suffer through stories about whether Chilly can maintain control of the situation, I think some perspective is important.
Brett Favre has been in Minnesota for one week. Tarvaris Jackson has been in Minnesota for over three years -- he's entering his fourth season with the Vikings. Favre threw four passes in the one game he has played with the Vikings. Jackson is coming off a game in which he posted a perfect quarterback rating. And in the four regular season games freshest in the memories of his teammates, he led the Vikings to a 3-1 record.
Is it any wonder that some players are apparently reluctant to embrace the arrival of Favre? Since Favre is replacing a guy who's been here for over three years and has undoubtedly made his share of friends among the guys currently on the Vikings roster? Since Favre missed training camp while Jackson has been around for the entire offseason?
For all the fans who remain upset about Favre, and for all the players who would rather see Jackson starting than Favre, the remedy is a simple one: Just see if the guy can win you over. If he puts points on the board and helps the team get to the playoffs, none of this will matter. And if he fails, he fails.
By the way, Florio suggests that this small movement in the locker room is reason to deal T-Jack. I disagree. It's ridiculous to draw any conclusions about this barely a week after Favre became a Viking.
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Do I sense sarcasm here?
I still think we should keep Jackson over Booty, if it comes to that. The Purple are a mature, veteran team, and their third-string, developmental quarterback should reflect the nature of the team.
by virginia viking on Aug 25, 2009 6:14 AM CDT reply actions
Players
If certain players are still “standing by T-Jak” despite the fact that he has sucked for three-plus years, then maybe the Vikings should cut those said players and bring in some people who actually know how to win some football games.
Seriously, as a football player, if you do not recognize that Brett Favre (even at 40) is your best option at QB, then you’re a stooooopid football player.
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I doubt the players are behind Tjack because they think he is a better QB.
They are behind him because they have been teammates with him for 3+ years and they know Favre is a 1-year fix.
They also know that Favre’s performance tends to wane at the end of the year, right when good QB play is needed the most.
And let’s clarify, he hasn’t sucked for 3+ years. He has been learning the most complicated position on a professional football team for 3+ years. Some people take that long to develop, especially when the coaching staff is not the greatest.
I mean, just because he is not Peyton Manning does not mean he sucks. He is not where we need him to be, but he does not suck.
no bjorno, no. he has not won a superbowl or an mvp. he sucks.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 25, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
how about tony romo, or david garald, do they suck too??tjack hasn’t have the most brightiest coaching staff in the world, it’s a good thing that he has improve year after year,
and to BigBlueShoe what if the players that are supporting tjack are, chad greenway, ben leber, sidney rice, bobby wade, or vs, should we get rid of those guys?
i’m sorry chucky. he’s had his year and half to prove he could bring home the prize. he has failed so he must go.
we vikings don’t give our qb’s time to prove themselves. if they aren’t fran the 2nd in their first season or less they must go (ie hill, johnson, gannon, thigpen, etc…). if that means they go on to greatness with other teams so be it.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 25, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless he’s the ‘Pep’.
I believe the 'push off' cost us 'our' SuperBowl...
I believe you 'go for the win'... instead of 'taking a knee'...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Aug 25, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
that's true
we will ride a qb til his legs fall off as well.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 25, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Bad coaching?
For what it’s worth, haven’t both Chilly and Bevell coached Favre before?
I think you could make a very convincing argument that all of the Vikings’ success of the last three years has come as a result of their defense and running game. Tavaris, like Gus and like Brad before him, hasn’t helped or hurt that success. They’ve all managed to maintain the status quo. Favre gives us a chance to change that status quo, most likely for the better.
The only issue I have is that while Favre faded down the stretch, Tarvaris faded at the beginning of last season, and is developing a track record for playing great for 2-3 games, then playing terribly for 3-4 games. FWIW, Tavaris didn’t get us into the playoffs last year. AD, our D, and Gus did.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Aug 26, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
but we know farvre will fade down the stretch. we know. he freely admits it himself. he has done it every year for the past several years. tj has gotten consistently better every year. will this year be different? who can say? there’s every reason to believe tjack would be better this year than last year. there’s every reason to believe favre will fade just when we need him most.
tj didn’t get us into the playoffs last year. he also didn’t cost us our spot in the playoffs. again, no reason at all to think tjack would regress this season as he has never regressed in his career. (gus had nothing at all to do with getting us in the playoffs. ap and our d overcame gus’s mistakes)
no one knows what the future will bring, but if a particular thing happens every year, chances are it’s going to continue. not gauranteed, but a better chance than not.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
IF
the QB had nothing to do with us getting in to the playoffs last year that is all the more reason to get rid of all of them that were here last year including TJack and JDB
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 26, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
right. because every qb should just know how to play at the nfl level and never make a mistake after starting 14 games.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
no, the collective we.
as in all of us here at dn (including favre himself because he has said so) know favre will tank at the end of the season because he has consistently done so and adding in offseason surgery and a previous undiagnosed injury to a 40 year old qb doesn’t make for a body built to hold up through the rigors of a full nfl season plus playoffs.
if others don’t want to admit they know, well, my condolences on your future disappointment.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Til Romo wins a big one
Yes, he sucks. He is not a leader and can’t get his team to rally as one unit and win a playoff game at least.
by CitrusFLViking on Aug 25, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
you do know that...
he was playing against backups so i wouldnt read to much into that tjack performance…seriously tjack is a proven loser and the rock bottom he got against the Eagles last year in the playoffs was the nail in the coffin
that wasnt the nail in the coffin
because if so romo would be out of dallas after 2 back to back first round losses and a blowout loss to the eagles, not reaching the playoffs last year, with a stacked team who was supposed to go to the superbowl
by vikesfan4lyf on Aug 25, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
And I suppose if you were a Giants fan, you would be calling for themto get rid of Eli Manning considering he did worse than Tjack against the same Eagles defense the week after we lost to them.
Nevermind the fact that the Eagles have a top-5 passing defense; or the fact that Tjack is a young QB who is still developing.
by Bjorno on Aug 25, 2009 8:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
TJax development
Isn’t really developing too much. He stills holds onto the ball too long. He’s still too inaccurate. He still looks like a deer in headlights too much. The guy has great skills and athletic ability—but I think it’s fair to expect more after three years. And Eli has shown far more in three years than Tarvaris has, and is actually a good benchmark for comparing Tarvaris against. Both don’t complete a high percentage, both play on run and defense oriented teams. Net result?
Eli took his team to a Superbowl win his third year as starter.
Tarvaris is still fighting to be considered a long-term starter, to the point that we traded for Sage this last offseason (and who looked like he would have been leading the competition until Favre signed).
Let’s be honest—the Vikes don’t have time to wait on Tarvaris anymore. Maybe he should’ve sat for three years like Rogers, but he didn’t. He is what he is at this point, and that’s not a franchise QB.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Aug 26, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
you’re right. eli is a good benchmark for comparing tarvaris. both play on run oriented teams with elite defenses. let’s compare:
eli came from an sec division 1 program that consistently sends players to the pros and plays against some the top talent in the nation.
name more than 1 other nfl starter from alabama st. (yes there is 1 other)
eli became a starter in week 11 of his rookie season. (7 games) he had 2 games with a 90 or better rating. 5 games < 70 rating. 1 game with a 0.0 rating.
jackson became a ‘starter’ in week 16 of his rookie season. (2 games) 0 games with a 90 or better rating. 2 games < 70 rating.
eli played all 16 games his second season. 4 games > 90 qb rating. 6 games < 70 rating. lost his first ever playoff game to carolina 23-0 with a 35 qb rating.
jackson played 12 games his second season. 4 games > 90 qb rating. 5 games < 70 rating. no playoffs.
eli played 16 games his third season. 4 games > 90 qb rating. 6 games < 70 rating. lost his playoff game to philly 23-20 with an 85 qb rating
jackson played 5 games his third season. 2 games > 90 rating. 1 game < 70 rating. lost his first ever playoff game to philly 26-14 with a 45 rating.
eli played 16 games his fourth season. 3 games > 90 qb rating (2 in playoffs). 7 games < 70 qb rating (0 in playoffs). won superbowl.
this would have been tj’s fourth season.
so in review. remarkably similar developmentally even though tjack started out from behind. if chilly had been eli’s coach he probably would have yanked eli too considering the number of bad games he has consistently throughout his career.
hmmm….too bad tj wasn’t allowed to actually develop like eli was.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Let’s clarify,
Eli is not a top-10 QB, but because of the team he has around him he was able to take the Giants to a super bowl win.
Tjack is not a top-10 QB, but because of the team around him, he should be able to take the Vikes to the super bowl.
The problem is that Chilly drafted a mobile, strong-armed and rough around the edges scrambler; then tries to force him into a gameplan that is not made for his style of play.
Vick was effective because he was allowed to roam the field and extend the play. They took the fact that Vick is an amazing scrambler and used that to their advantage. We seem to be setting ourselves up for failure by not taking advantage of that extra dimension that Tjack provides.
maybe, maybe not. cunningham showed in 98 that a scrambler can be a pocket guy. tjack can learn that. but not by being yanked in the middle of his development. all great qbs are great because they were allowed to be bad when they were young. i don’t have a problem with chili teaching tjack to be a pocket passer. he’s shown improvement in that area so i believe he can do it. but finish what you start. don’t cut it off just when it looks so promising (like he did last year).
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Could it be that those guys...
.
… just don’t want to have to learn the rest of the playbook?
Or is T-Jack running the full playbook now?
by Sonic on Aug 25, 2009 9:21 AM CDT reply actions
Jackson is one skill short of being a very good QB
Jackson has improved significantly over the years. The one thing he simple can’t do right now is make the quick reads and get the ball to receivers on a three or five step drop without doing multiple hitches and/or scrambling. The great defenses have been able to take advantage of this and make him look bad (see playoff game vs. Eagles). Defenses that can’t take advantage of this aspect of Jackson’s game don’t do well against him. As I’m think more about it, I’d like to see Jackson stay and learn this skill from Favre. If he learns to make those reads and get the ball out quicker, Jackson will be a legitimate starter.
yes!
I believe the 'push off' cost us 'our' SuperBowl...
I believe you 'go for the win'... instead of 'taking a knee'...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Aug 25, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Dittoes!
It may take a village to raise a child, but it takes a Viking to raze a village.
by Luft Krigare on Aug 25, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it is more the handling pressure...
T-Jack makes the reads fast enough when he feels no pressure and can make all the throws when there is no pressure. It is when the pressure is on that he makes the mistakes and that is the intangible he lacks.
The way I look at it is this, he did great in Preseason/OTA’s last year, then regular season came a long and he struggled (from the pressure if I rememeber). Get’s pulled, then put back and does great because he realizes he didn’t need to put himself under pressure.
Come playoff time, the pressure is on again and again a poor performance.
Maybe I am way off on this, but based on his history I would see us making it to the Conference title game (best case) and lose based on a poor performance due to pressure. If the team remained healthy for the 2010 season we could possibly make a superbowl run, where we would lose from a poor performance. In the 2011 season, all things going well, T-Jack will have gotten over his pressure issues and we could possibly win the super bowl.
So, if you are with T-Jack, you are on a 3 year plan in my opinion. Upside to Favre is possibly this year, Sage, not sure.
by VikesSince85 on Aug 25, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly
he get’s scared and what happens when a qb gets scared or nervous turnovers.
i'm not buying all this handling the pressure stuff
this is the nfl. there’s not a guy an any roster who isn’t under pressure. right now, antone smith (the rb we signed off waivers from the lions) is under more presssure than tavaris jackson. he’s trying to earn a living and knows he’s not going to make it. that’s pressure.
if you’re and nfl qb you’re under pressure. if you’re a starting nfl qb, you’re under pressure. tjack shows his flaws against good defenses because that’s what good defenses do, make qbs make mistakes. he simply doesn’t have the experience to overcome these mistakes. 19 games isn’t enough to overcome a blitz crazy defense in your first playoff game when your coach refuses to make in game adjustments.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 25, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
He may never again be worth what he is right now.
If they can get a 3rd rounder or better, than absolutely trade him.
Don't think a third...
But I don’t think anyone would spend a third rounder, forget about a second, for Tarvaris. A fifth or sixth maybe, but I highly doubt anyone would go higher than that.
Visit:
http://www.vikingvigil.com
Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!
The rumor was that the Vikes could get a 5th before this performance
…so I’m wondering if any team would up their ante to a 4th (now) or 3rd (with one more strong preseason performance).
If he isn't worth that much to a team
Why would anyone assume T-Jax is the man to helm the Vikings. I would play Sage before him. Sage succeeded running against ,a weak, but still the best team the colts had out ther. T-Jax fail, but did well against KC’s second string. What was their record last year.
I want a QB in there that won’t choke when being run down in a big game. Favre and Sage offer more hope.
Whatever player(s0 thinks T-Jax should lead the team has to have his head examined and watch film he played in against teams that we have to beat when it counts.
I like the kid. Not as a starting QB
by CitrusFLViking on Aug 25, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions
i don’t know citrus. these guys know tj and they know the offense. if they think he can do it, you have to respect that. these guys don’t bust their butts in practice and give up half the year away from their families so they can lose. they want to win. if they think tj can do it, i would think they know better than we do.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
How do you guys know the problem is Jackson?
Jackson isn’t calling the plays, and he isn’t calling the audibles neither. He’s doing what he’s told to do by his coach’s.
Also, last year was Jacksons first year with WR’s who can actually catch the ball. His first two seasons, Troy Williamson was the Vikings primary receiver.
IMO, Chilly’s playbook is designed for “Any QB to fail”
He almost always runs on 1st and 2nd down, then pass’s on 3rd and long. Not to mention, the offensive line really sucks when it comes to pass-protection.
“Sometimes when Johnny can’t read, it’s because Johnny doesn’t have a good teacher”
Dennis Green said that!
no chaosg, no. tjack hasn’t won a superbowl or an mvp. he must suck.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 25, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
lol...exactly!
I’ll agree that Jackson is a little behind, but I blame Childress for that.
Like i said, Chilly’s playbook is designed for "Any QB to fail"
I disagree
Tarvaris has trouble executing plays the way they are supposed to be executed. So, he’s actually not doing what his coaches have told him. I don’t think the coaches want him holding the ball forever and then throwing into double coverage.
As for play calling—Gus wasn’t calling plays last year, and he executed the offense far better than Tjax. Childress isn’t that great at play calling, but other fringe starter QBs have consistently gotten more out of the offense with Chilly than Tarvaris has.
re: receivers—I don’t think Troy was ever our bona fide #1, and if he was, it certainly was not for the entire season (only the first game of the season).
re: offensive line pass protection—hmm, maybe they have trouble with pass protection because Tarvaris can’t get rid of the ball in a timely manner.
Tarvaris has great skills and great athletic ability. I don’t dispute that at all. What I have issue with is that he just doesn’t appear to ‘see’ the game. In two series Favre looked like he knew exactly what he was looking for, and when he saw it he took it. Tarvaris always appears like he’s waiting for something to happen, trying to judge when he should make his move—if he should make his move or check down. It’s not that he can’t make the throws—he just doesn’t see the game two moves ahead so that he can anticipate and set up the D so he can do what he wants.
"Come on Eddie, let's get serious."
by biggity2bit on Aug 26, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Gus took a beating...
…back there last year as well. I suppose he doesn’t get rid of the ball fast enough either?
Tarvaris has trouble executing plays the way they are supposed to be executed. So, he’s actually not doing what his coaches have told him.
And you know this how? Sat in on a lot of Viking QB meetings have you?
Chilly wasn’t calling the plays anymore, Bevell had regained control of playcalling by that time. Sure, Gus showed us some things that Tjack didn’t. But that is what you expect from a veteran QB. That still does not change the fact that he couldn’t break a 1:1 TD:INT ratio, or have higher than 60% completion. Gus did not perform better than Tjack.
Regardless of whether or not Troy Williamson was the #1 WR, Tjack still did not have anything close to an acceptable WR to throw to. The top 2 receivers for the year he started 12 games were Bobby Wade and Robert Ferguson.
Brad Childress took a large, not very mobile, offensive line and tried to implement a zone-blocking scheme. While that is great for our run game, it causes issues in pass protection.
Tarvaris has great skills and great athletic ability. I don’t dispute that at all. What I have issue with is that he just doesn’t appear to ‘see’ the game.
that sounds suspiciously like a young qb who needs just a wee bit more time to develop. like say, last year.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll remind you that he's only played 19 games.
Kinda hard for him to throw it, when he has no protection (R.Cook), and how come the receivers can’t get open when 9 of 11 guys are stacked on ADAP?
IMO, I think Jackson lost trust with his O-line and receivers, and just got used to making plays with his feet. Jackson doesn’t throw into dbl-coverage very often, because the receivers almost never face dbl-coverage….Except for 3rd and long, when opposing defenses know were throwing. Not to mention, how many of those INT’s were tipped pass’s?
Like I said before, Chillys playbook is designed for QB failure.
of course Brett Favre is going to look better than Jackson. He ran this style offense for for the better part of 16yrs. He’s seen every kind of Blitz package there is.
I know the Vikes are better off with Favre, I’m just tired of everybody blaming 1-guy (Jackson) How about blaming the shitty play of ST’s, or how the defense can’t stop a screen-pass to save the season(Eagles game) or maybe if Shianco would have caught that ball in the endzone during the 1st-Packer game.
I believe Troy Williamson was #1 on the WR depth chart. He replaced R.moss. Williamson was the 7th pick in the draft, and in his 3yrs with the Vikings, he had a total of 3-TD’s. They tried to get help, but K.Robinson got in legal trouble. It wasn’t until last year when B.Berrian came in that the Vikings pass-game came to life.
Interesting
…because Troy Williamson is also having a great camp while making a strong case to start.
With Favre (and 3 other hand-picked QBs on the roster), this should be the year of no excuses for Chilly. Favre managed to post an above average rating last year despite playing 5 games without a biceps tendon attached in his throwing arm, so there is really more upside vs. last year in the old guy in this situation.
I’ve not been a fan of the playcalling in the past few years, but some of the mistakes I’ve seen Jackson make were worse than some rookies. Jackson also fumbles about as much as Culpepper without the production, and that is no exaggeration.
Jackson has only looked good vs. Detroit last year (the worst team ever), Arizona (the 3rd worst rating allowed by a pass defense in 2008), Atlanta (25th ranked pass defense overall), the 2008 NYG backups and the Chiefs’ backups (their starters allowed the 8th worst rating and the 28th worst pass defense overall of 2008, so imagine how bad their backups are) in this preseason.
In the 14 starts from 2007-week 2 of 2008, he only had 5 quality starts (rounding up, and 3 were against below average or worse defenses: DET, SFO’s 5th highest rating allowed, and week 17 vs. DEN, 7th highest rating allowed) with only 3 slightly below average games, which rounds up to being an effective starter about 40-50% of the time. He also struggled twice against the Bears and Lions (both were below average and dreadful, respectively). (If only Spielman could have convinced CHI or GB that TJ was their answer…then the Vikings would have one less serious contender in the NFC North.) His rating in those 14 starts was less than 70, which is not even twice as helpful as an incomplete pass on every throw. In fact, there was one game in which his 20-something rating indicated that the team would have been better off had he simply thrown an incompletion with every attempt. That career worst was against the very awesome 2007 Lions when he threw 4 picks vs. the 2nd worst pass defense of 2007 (but only by 0.1 or less).
Some like to say that 2007 and early 2008 numbers mean nothing since Jackson is getting so much better by the minute (just look at his performance vs. awful defenses, yay!) The bottom line isn’t to gamble away another season just to see if he gets better or not. The bottom line is to win the games that the team should win plus a few more against quality competition. Tarvaris Jackson’s resume prior to week 3 of 2008 is loaded with poor starts against poor teams, below average starts against average or better teams, only 1 great game vs. an above average team (vs. NYG in 2007, his career best start), and 1 other quality start vs. a 4-12 Oakland team which was slightly above average at defending the pass in 2007.
Think about that for a moment: despite having 3 cream-puff starts at the end of 2008, his career-best game is still from 2007. And if that career-best “flash of brilliance” is still relevant, then so are the rest.
I threw out the 2 awful starts of his rookie season (one in week 17 against a poor defense), but the bottom line is that a starting QB must be brilliant more often, even against tough competition, and Tarvaris Jackson only has 1-2 such starts out of 19 to date. If other teams are willing to put their faith in a preseason exhibition vs. the Chiefs’ awful backups, then the Vikings should pounce on that trade.
Sage by the same standards
2008: 5 starts vs. CLE, JAX, BAL and 2 vs. IND. 4/5 quality starts, and only JAX was a below average passing defense. Oh, and he completed more than 60% of his passes in every game except for vs. BAL (still 53-something%, not bad for one’s worst game). On a team that does most of its passing on 3rd downs, a high completion% means fewer punts.
2007: 5 starts vs. OAK, TB, DEN, IND, and JAX. 4/5 quality starts (rounded up). 3 of the quality starts were against quality pass defenses, including his best that year vs. TB.
Sage has been far more consistent than Tarvaris Jackson, both in his ratings and in his ability to complete passes, which is the QB’s primary job despite what Vikings fans seem to have learned by osmosis (i.e., “to be athletic” or “to have invisible potential” or “to be an underdog” or “to be a good guy”).
and yet, by your same standards, tjack is better than eli manning in his first 3 seasons. eli won a superbowl with the giants in his fourth year and just became the highest paid qb in the league. but based on your criteria, he should have never been given the chance in 07 (his 4th year). that year he only had 3 regular season games with over a 90 rating and he had 7 games (almost half the entire season!) with a rating less than 70. to put it in perspective, tjack had a 73 rating in the indy game last year. you know, the one that got him benched?
see my above post. i didn’t use some arbitrary “quality start” i used actual qb ratings. less than 70 bad, 70 to 90 average, above 90 good.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Eli is different
He was the 1st overall pick, and he was not as raw. More than 1 coach thought that he should be drafted in the top 5, and most thought he would go on to be great. It’s worth riding over some bumps in the road for a guy like that. TJ had 1 coach who thought he should be drafted higher than the 6th round or so, and he was the only one who thought that TJ was starting material with the right coaching, etc.
Also, you’re wrong to say that TJ’s career stacks up favorably to Eli’s. Eli’s first full season as a starter came in his second year (same with TJ), and Eli posted a 75.9 rating (close to the league average of 78.2)…not great, but several points higher than TJ’s which was lower than the league average by a wider margin. Eli’s best game of 2005 was against the Eagles, and it is still the 3rd highest rated game of his career. By the end of Eli’s second year, he had thrown more TDs than picks, and TJ had not. In fact, Eli has always thrown more TDs than INTs and has never lost his starting job since his 2nd year in the league, and TJ can’t say that either. Eli played in the tougher NFC East while TJ accomplished less in the far weaker NFC North.
By the same standards, Eli had 7 quality starts in 2005 with 3 mediocre games with a tougher schedule. Eli’s 10/16 > TJ’s 8/14, especially considering the tougher schedule and other numbers. Even in Eli’s worst regular season to date (2007), there were good signs. He had 7 quality starts and 2 mediocre ones, and his best starts were against DAL and NE. The bottom line is that Eli has always shown a level of consistency that TJ may only aspire to achieve someday since his rookie year.
The one thing I do trust Chilly’s judgment on is the fact that he had originally wanted to be joined at the hip with this wonderful QB prospect named Tarvaris Jackson, gave him the starting job for 2 training camps in a row, and no longer views him as the next Donovan McNabb or even a worthy starter. Nobody was prepared to give up on Eli Manning, and Manning’s teams had a winning record in his first 3 years (and since).
by KC Viking on Aug 27, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
TJack is ‘granny’ on Obamacare… and Chilly has pulled the plug.
I believe the 'push off' cost us 'our' SuperBowl...
I believe you 'go for the win'... instead of 'taking a knee'...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Aug 27, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
TJ is Granny, but in the real world...
Granny is actually on Medicare today and after health care is reformed, and nothing would change in that regard. Only the private health insurance companies have “death panels” to pull plugs on the younger people that they deny and/or drop (i.e. 35yo fathers in KC with bone marrow cancer).
So, TJ is more like Sarah Palin…demoted from 2nd string to possibly not having a job or having to move on altogether.
being the 1st overal pick, eli should be better. he should come out of the gate with a better feel for the pro game. he should have more people thinking he should have been drafted high. so it’s worth riding over some bumps for a guy drafted #1 but not a guy in the second round?
and yet tj’s career does stack up favorably to eli’s. tj’s first full season he posted a 70.8 rating. not as good as eli’s no, but in range. and yet, eli was a #1 pick and tj was a guy everyone else thought was a 6th rounder at best. you can point to individual games if you like but i know tj has 3 games with a 130+ rating in his first 16 starts. eli has 0 in his first 16. that best game you mentioned in 05 came in eli’s 17th start. tjack already had 3 better games and all 3 of them are better the eli has put up in his entire career.
i guess your quality starts are off some arbitrary rating system known only to you. you have to play dallas or new england to have a quality start? that makes no sense to me. tougher schedule? last time i checked all 32 teams are fully stocked with professional football players, including detroit.
if you want to compare apples to apples look at how well they performed in games. tj stacks up well against eli who puts up some really bad numbers. if his name wasn’t manning he’d probably be in a similar situation to tj right now. tj has had less bad games and better good games than eli and keeps losing his job. maybe chili’s using your rating system too.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 27, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
We have some agreement here
It’s worth riding over bumps for a #1 overall pick vs. a guy drafted at the end of the 2nd (and probably could have been picked anywhere in the next 2-3 rounds before anyone else would have taken a chance on him) because of the HUGE difference in salary, AND because of the Manning pedigree AND because so many more scouts and GMs and coaches expected that he could do it AND because he was in fact more consistently good enough, though not spectacular, than Tarvaris Jackson has ever been or possibly could ever be.
You’re all alone in saying that more INTs than TDs and a lower rating is JUST AS GOOD as someone who had better numbers and was more consistent as well. It’s fine that you think that TJ is every bit as good as Eli, but don’t expect people to also discount so many relevant facts in favor of some fairy tale future chapter which may or may never take place.
This is how I determine a quality start: games with 78+ ratings. Why 78? It means that, on average, the QB produced something at least 2x as good as an incomplete pass. Originally, I wanted to use 80.0, but realized that 2x as good as a completion is pretty good. I count all quality starts as 1.0 games out of the number of starts in that time frame. I call a mediocre start anything from 70-77.9. Those are game management type performances. Teams can win those on other merits, but the QB only kept them in those games, so I count those as 0.5. So if a guy has 5 quality starts and 3 mediocre ones, that’s 6.5/14.
I also think that quality starts against top 10 passing defenses deserve another 0.5, so that same QB might have 7/14 if one of his quality starts happened to be against a top 10 defense (either by lowest rating allowed, overall pass def rank or lowest ANY/A).
Wow, I should have read all of your post before replying because I had no idea that you were going to also illogically conclude that the 0-16 Detroit Lions of 2008 were as good as any other NFL opponent. I may as well have had this conversation with a rock if you truly believe that.
maybe
just maybe, the players behind tj are the ones who’ve been busting their butts in training camp and ota’s over the offseason with tj while favre sat on his flip-flopping butt or worked on his timing with the high school kids in hattiesburg?
just a thought. some people don’t like that kind of thing.
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 25, 2009 11:30 AM CDT reply actions
I know we just got Sage but
We could get a fifth rounder for him. Trade him, move on and keep the guy that knows the system better and has higher potential, in Tavaris.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
Why did we bring in Sage
Because TJack was incapable of doing the job. One preseason game does not change that fact.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 25, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Just a thought...
Did you ever think the Vikings just brought in Sage to push Tarvaris and not actually replace him? Evidence being that they gave Sage only backup money and not starter pay.
It may take a village to raise a child, but it takes a Viking to raze a village.
by Luft Krigare on Aug 25, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Sage was brought in for a real compitition
I believe BC felt Jackson has had enough time he should be ready to be a legitimate starter and isn’t certain if he will. Sage was intended to be another QB that is marginal as a starter. The hope being that between the two, one would prove to be worth the starting position. When both remained marginal in camp, BC called Favre and begged. I’m not sure that was the best decision since Jackson was fighting a minor injuries and Rosenfels is still learning the system, but that was the call. I think it will be good in the short term and bad in the long term, but without being involved on a day to day basis, that’s just my best guess.
Now, which QB do we drop, or do we carry 4? Personally, I’d take a 4th for Jackson or Rosenfels. I don’t think we’ll get that. That means I’d try to trade Booty for whatever I could get (6th/7th) or sneak him on the PS. The chance of him passing waivers is small, but worth a chance IMHO. We have too much other good talent at other positions and too much need on special teams for carrying 4 QBs to make sense. I’d much rather see 6 receivers than 4 QBs since Reynaud and Johnson both have so much value as both a 5th receiver and on special teams.
Twice as much as Frerotte
Gustav earned something like $1.5M last year, and I’d heard that Sage’s new contract is for about $3M+. That is a marginal starter’s salary which would probably be renegotiated if they decided to stick with him for another 2-3+ years.
One game changes nothing so...
I’m not sure we would get a fifth rounder for T.Jack. If we could than fine, but if a higher pick is available for Sage do it. Sage is not that much(if any) of an upgrade to T.Jack. He was brought in to compete for the #1 job. To win the #1 position or push T.Jack and have a be a solid #2QB.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
Yeah, we just signed him and gave him an extension.
It would be absolutely silly to try and move him now.
Visit:
http://www.vikingvigil.com
Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!
Silly that is a good description of our front office.
And a lot cleaner than I could possibly be to those F*&T%ng Id&%^s
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 25, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Could it be that some guys on the team resent how Childress has bungled this situation from the very beginning?
It isn’t hard to conceive players being upset that one player was able to skip camp and miss the first game. Show up three days before the second and be named the starter.
This isn’t a surprising development. It’s entirely possible that some players don’t like being lied to by their coach and would rather stick by two players that by all-accords did everything right in their “battle” for the quarterback position.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Poorly treated maybe, but not lied to
Childress didn’t promise anything as far as I know. So while he may have treated Rosenfels and Jackson poorly, he was truthful. I can understand some players not liking the decision and even stating so internally, but our players are high-character professionals relative to most teams and I don’t see anyone making this a major issue. It’s not like Favre is just another marginal QB (as much as I hate admitting it).
everybody says chilly has stopped his progression as a starter he didn't to mcnabb
he was donovan offensive coordinator for years actually mcnabb has said he wouldn’t be the qb he is without chilly so this really falls on tarvaris’s shoulders never was a leader prolly a good return man somewhere.
Bottom line:
Favre puts asses in seats. Sagevaris Jacksonfels does not.
by Jepp The Viking on Aug 25, 2009 12:34 PM CDT reply actions
more than likely more wins as well
he has always been known for a winner
Not just that
Look at how much more often Sage completes a pass. And how often he can muster a rating of 78+ when starting. TJ is nowhere close. Sage would have had fans in the seats after a few games, if not right away, just because this team throws mostly on 3rd downs, so a high completion% = fewer punts.
Sage had Andre Johnson
Our receivers are good, but they are not Andre Johnson good. I’m not sure there is anyone else who is, no knock on our guys. That gave a boost to Sage’s #s, particularly his passer rating (Andre’s YAC is phenomenal)
don’t forget how often he has earned the starting spot in 8 seasons! oh nevermind…
by iseepurplepeople on Aug 26, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Sometimes the lights come on and the game just finally "slows down' for a QB
.
But with T-Jack, I am not quite convinced that the game is really finally slowing down very much for him. Instead, it seems that the game just doesn’t come at him as fast sometimes.
Subtle difference or not, it won’t be the case in 3 consecutive post-season games.
I hope all of you T-Jack guys are right— because after the one-year Favre diversion is over, we are right back to square one— taking heat for not doing enough to address our QB situation in a meaningful and long term way while the best years of AD are being used up with no real chance of advancing past one game in the playoffs.
by Sonic on Aug 25, 2009 1:31 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
yes! +1
I believe the 'push off' cost us 'our' SuperBowl...
I believe you 'go for the win'... instead of 'taking a knee'...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Aug 25, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
2 years
Barring a losing season or a SB victory, I think Favre will be back, perhaps to mentor a 1st round QB.
He didn't take that role real well in Green Bay...
What makes you think he’d want to do it for Minnesota? That’d be a high price tag for a mentor as well.
Visit:
http://www.vikingvigil.com
Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!
How in the world did we manage to get so snakebit...
.
at the QB position when we have done so well at other positions and even miraculously at one position— brilliantly snatching up a gift sent to us straight from Asgard?!
We are quarterbacking the AD Era with either some “projects” that remind me of the projects on t.v. where they try to remodel an entire living room with only $500 and end up using mismatched paints from the sales bin and random furniture from yard sales, or an old gunslinger who has given the impression of being much more interested in furthering his own “legacy” and goals than anything to do with our team. I just don’t get it. Management has done such a great job assembling this team—-and I love the Percy Harvin pick! But the QBs— I understand that getting QBs isn’t easy, but just start counting how many other teams in the NFL you would trade our group of QBs for if you were needing to take full advantage of the AD Era (even this year with Favre— not to mention next year or whenever he’s gone…) How many would it be? How many are in our own division?
I am certainly not saying that management sucks, or anything like that— just look at the rest of the team that they’ve put together— it’s just that there is this mental block, or dark cloud, or something at this one position…
by Sonic on Aug 25, 2009 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Its a lot harder to get a QB than any other position….and QB falls victim to the “incompatible system to skills” problem more than any other position. Just because the QB is great doesnt mean that he’ll be great here NOR does it mean that just because a guy was a backup doesnt mean he cant excel in our system.
Brett Farve though has shown his is both really good and really good in the west coast style offense.
Tarvaris has shown he cant handle the system. He doesnt get the ball off on time, the biggest thing a qb needs to do in the system. Brett does, Sage does. End of story.
Harder to get a QB, yes.
But we had several chances at Garcia, and he has been playing just fine in similar systems.
The reason we have been struggling to find someone is because Chilly is a stubborn SOB. He believes he is the ultimate QB guru and knows more than anyone else. Only now that his job is on the line does he realize that he made a mistake and is now grabbing at straws with the Favre signing.
Even Favre said he doesn’t think he can play a full season, yet Chilly pulled the trigger.
I wanted Garcia too.
He perfect for this offense.
He’s a WC-Offense veteran
He’s cheap, the Raiders are currently only paying him $600k
He’s efficient, low INT’s #‘s.
He’s younger than Favre, and far $cheaper.
Last year Garcia made the Vikings pass-rush look slow, tired and weak.
Year 2
…will be another year of contention, and I believe he would be willing to hang it up at 40/41. He wouldn’t need to be a backup to mentor, as most rookie QBs don’t start right away anyway. He may also come into the role because of a broken leg and/or a few meaningless games left at the end of the season. And I do think that anything is possible, given that Ted Thompson isn’t calling the shots this time around.
we have to win now!!!!
we have key players in the latter stages of they’re careers, Phat Pat, Winfield and Sasser come to mind immediatly. Lets use any and all means available (Brett) and get SB rings for these guys!!!!!!!
Locker Room Dreams
I’m beginning to seriously wonder what some people imagine goes on in the “locker room” that it has more impact than a safe place to store a jock strap…
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
This is surprising because?
Who are you going to be more warmed up to.. the guy who has been there 3 years or the guy that’s been there 3 days. Come on, do they have nothing better to write!
just alot of rambling from me
i am scared because we all know chilly is gutless and now with brett farve on our team if he is not doing the job we brought him here for, were gonna sit here and watch our season go down the drain cause chilly wont pull him, all while we pay a guy 3 or more million dollars to sit on the bench and let our semi developed qb in tjack go away for at most 4th round pick, and i am not sold on farve yet because ive never seen a 39 year old qb come off of a surgery and play up to par, but my opinion is bias on farve and hes gonna have to prove some stuff to me i mean i have hated him most of my life and i also worry the only reseason he signed was it would have been a bad business decision for him not to, i dont understand why people think hes the missing piece alls i wanted was a qb smart enough to throw it away when under pressure and not throw a pick not a gun slinger who is gonna force it any chance he get
Seriously...
I was not a big fan of bringing Favre to Minnesota, but he’s on board, and barring some injury or other strange twist of fortune he will be the starter this season. Like it or not, that’s the end of that discussion for his teammates, Vikings fans, and the media.
As for Tarvaris, he had a very good outing…against second stringers from a team that went 2-14 last season, a team with a new coaching staff. That is hardly reason to wish he was the starter over Favre, whatver Favre’s shortcomings.
This burst of T-Jack love reminds me of those people who thought, based on his first performance as a starter, that SCSU’s own Todd Bouman was the Vikings’ QB Of The Future.
by Midnight Rambler on Aug 26, 2009 9:15 AM CDT reply actions
Good attitude
I know your sentiments Rambler, so I can understand it’s hard, but I think you are right, it is also healthy to just put it behind you. I can appreciate how hard it is, even though coming from the oppositie direction, because between July 28 and last week, I had to struggle with the idea of not having Favre, and reconciling myself to going forward with QB options that I had serious doubts could take us very far. It was hard. I appreciate this is hard for you, and commend you for working through it.
Just one Question Head
The best west coast offense consists of dinks, dumpoffs, and running, IE: Montana and Youngs 49ers. Would you agree this is the kind of team we have? Can you see or even dream of Favre being satisfied with or even being able to do this for us? I can not see him being able to change the way he has always been. I hope I am wrong and everybody is on me all year about well Favre is managing the game, and how I did not support or want him. Also yes Chilly is a idiot from time to time ie: Favre, but as they always say the coach does not take a single snap or miss a single tackle. That responsibility lays directly on the people on the field executing whatever play is called, no matter how conservative or daring.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 26, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Woops
This was suppose to be a TJack thread, so get him out of here.
by bleedingpurplesince74 on Aug 26, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
You seriously think Favre doesn't throw "dink and dunk" ?!?
Where do you get your knowledge of what kind of passes Favre throws? From Sportscenter highlight reels? You do realize they onloy show the big bombs there right?
It’s kinda funny to me — there are lots of sites where people knock Favre because they think that he’s been doing “dink and dunk” TOO MUCH. You, however, think he doesn’t even do it!
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