What If. . .the Vikings Hadn't Drafted Adrian Peterson?
by Christopher Gates on Sep 18, 2009 9:45 AM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings
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PrintDon Banks has a pretty interesting article up at SI.com today, and it takes a look at something so horrific that many Viking fans may have nightmares simply thinking about it. What if another team had taken Adrian Peterson in the 2007 NFL Draft before the Vikings' pick came up at #7?
In that 2007 draft, these were the teams that drafted ahead of the Beloved Purple and who they selected
1) Oakland Raiders - JaMarcus Russell, QB, Louisiana State
2) Detroit Lions - Calvin Johnson, WR, Georgia Tech
3) Cleveland Browns - Joe Thomas, OT, Wisconsin
4) Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Gaines Adams, DE, Clemson
5) Arizona Cardinals - Levi Brown, OT, Penn State
6) Washington Redskins - LaRon Landry, S, Louisiana State
This past Sunday's game against the Browns was AP's eighth game against those six teams, and the Vikings have gone 5-3 in those contests.
As Banks points out, one could reasonably argue that all of those six selections were justifiable at the time based on the needs of those teams. Then again, the Vikings didn't have a tremendous "need" at the running back position in 2007 either, what with Chester Taylor coming off of a 1,200+ yard season.
Obviously, none of the players listed above is as good as Adrian Peterson. . .which is understandable, considering that #28 is the best player in the NFL. . .but while Johnson and Thomas have both become outstanding NFL players, the other four guys on that list really haven't done a whole heck of a lot.
But as sort of a topic of discussion or debate for today, a couple of questions to ponder. . .
1) Would the Vikings be in the situation they're in now if they had stuck with Chester Taylor and not drafted Adrian Peterson in 2007?
2) Had AP been selected by one of the six teams ahead of the Vikings in 2007, would his impact have been as great as it has been in Minnesota?
Discussion starts. . .now!
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Ouch
That would hurt. I would have said at that point that they should have drafted Quinn then. At least they would have a really good QB prospect. So while our running game would be good…not great, at least our passing game would allow for decent balance. Then I would have tried to trade for Michael Bush from Oakland for a more bruising RB to backup Taylor.
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 18, 2009 10:02 AM CDT reply actions
At one point
Michael Bush was the 4th string RB and could have been had for a decent pick or player.
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 18, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I view our drafting of AD
as balancing out some other horrid No. 1 picks like Troy Williamson and Demetrious Underwood not to mention the Vikings passing on Marcus Allen to draft Darrin Nelson over twenty years ago.
by VikingBillArlingtonVA on Sep 19, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting...
It’s possible that the Vikings were the perfect match for Adrian’s skills and that going somewhere else… well, may not have turned out the same. But I think AP is such a special athlete that it would not matter where he landed, he would have dominated. Special athletes raise the level of play of their team – this IS Adrian.
I believe the 'push off' cost us 'our' SuperBowl...
I believe you 'go for the win'... instead of 'taking a knee'...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Sep 18, 2009 10:22 AM CDT reply actions
Had We not gotten A.P...
I think we probably would have took LaRon Landry or Brady Quinn.
I REFUSE
to consider such an idea….makes me sad to even think about our Vikes without AD running the rock. That my friends would be a HORRIBLE thing.
by JRockItsAllGood on Sep 18, 2009 10:25 AM CDT reply actions
Yeah it's too hard
to think about. Adrian Peterson IS the Minnesota Vikings franchise. What if he played within our division? Would I hate him? I don’t know. Seeing him elsewhere now would be like seeing Brett Favre in purp- Oh wait.
Purple is the new black.
I wouldn't
It wasn’t always easy, but I was a Barry Sanders fan in addition to being a lifelong Vikings fan when he was playing. When a player is as talented as AP or Barry, it’s just great to watch and impossible to ignore.
I followed AP during his college career and prayed one day he would get drafted by the Vikings.
During his freshman season at Oklamhoma I said I had never seen anyone run like he did. I get the same sort of feeling with Percy as when he got drafted I repeatedly headbutted my friends shoulder for five minutes in rejoice.
One thing you gotta love Chilly for is that he has drafted superbly not to mention signing guys like Allen, Hutchinson, Berrian…
The only questonable pick could be T.Jack, but it did seem like we needed to take a risk on a QB that year. Its just hard to justify drafting a division 2 player early in the second round.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
Not all of that is Chilly, and you seem to have forgotten a few details.
Did you hope that AP would be stuck behind Chester Taylor for half of his rookie season? Chilly seemed to be doing everything he could to avoid having a rookie superstar on his hands, including a 2-qtr suspension.
With the FAs, you’re acknowledging that the GM and ownership have been willing to evaluate and pony up for the best talent available, something that wasn’t true in the Green and Tice eras. Childress should be judged by his W-L record with such talent, and so far that has been underwhelming. He is exactly .500 with all of that talent, counting the playoff loss, and has enjoyed top-5 or better payrolls in all but one season so far. Chilly clearly had something to do with bringing in Bobby Wade since he crowed about having found the team’s #1 receiver. How did that turn out?
As for draftees, let’s not forget about gems like trading Daunte Culpepper for Ryan Cook instead of some very good available talent at that time or Tyrell Johnson instead of DeSean Jackson. We don’t know about Harvin yet since Chilly seems to want to add him to an already run-heavy game plan as a backup/change-of pace RB. With some stout run defenses on the schedule, it will be interesting to see if Chilly plays Harvin as a WR in those games or tries to get him hurt running gimmick plays which normally would have been rushing attempts for CT.
I actually like Tyrell Johnson, and I think he is going to be a bigger piece of our puzzle than Desean Jackson would be.
Granted, the guy is a great returner and a solid deep threat, but where would he fit in with our current crew? If we had Desean, we likely would have passed on Harvin just like the Eagles did.
The trading of Daunte was the biggest indicator of how much of a fool he is. Culpepper was 1 year removed from having 39 TD’s and 11INT’s with almost 70% completion. Sure, he had an off-year before his injury, but you don’t trade a guy like that for a 2nd round pick. What made it worse was that they decided to take Ryan Cook, a projected 4-6 rounder with the pick we got from Culpepper.
Who would you rather have had these last three years?
Ryan Cook or Daunte Culpepper.
If you say “Ryan Cook”, you are an idiot.
Good thoughts, but one thing...
while the Eagles DID pass on Harvin, they grabbed Maclin, who is very similar to Desean, so that might be a moot point. I do like Tyrell, though, FWIW.
Similar, but only because they both were good returners and both play WR.
Maclin is not a pure speedster, and from what I have seen from him has better hands than Desean. Plus he is a bit taller.
I think he will be more of a #2 guy than a slot receiver like Desean.
“Maclin is not a pure speedster..”
He ran a 4.43 40! I think Harvin ran a 4.41 do you consider him a pure speedster?
by packallday555 on Sep 20, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
No.
Desean, while fast and a good returner, is from a different mold than Maclin. From what I have seen from him, he is not going to be just a deep threat.
Granted, I am not an expert, but I look at him as a guy who can be a possession type receiver with incredible upside that he can put up big YAC.
If you say Daunte
You’re an idiot too. We could have traded for a crate of tennis balls and come out ahead in that trade.
Then you are an idiot. No offense.
As a QB, knee injuries are bad but are something that can be recovered from. Look at McNabb, he is doing pretty well after tearing his ACL.
Culpepper’s injury was more severe, but he was able to recover and still play in the league. What hurt him most was trading him DURING the injury. It is hard enough to rehab a knee and get used to playing on it again, but it is doubly hard to do that while learning a new system.
I have to present you with a different question:
Who would you rather have starting the last three years Daunte Culepper, or Tavaris Jackson?
If you say Tarvaris Jackson, you are an idiot.
Not that I don’t like Tjack, and wish him the best, but Culpepper has already proven he can do what we tried to do with Tjack. Had we not traded Culpepper, we would not have started Tjack his rookie year.
Then maybe Tjack would have developed properly.
Well all things considered
You’re right, Daunte has blown teams away the last 3 years! But wait, what are these? Statistics and not conjecture? Wow! Let’s take a look shall we?
Culpepper: 15 starts comp. % – 57%, 3046 yards, 11 TDs, 14 Ints
Jackson: 19 starts comp. % – 58%, 3,442 yards, 20 TDs, 18 Ints
Those look pretty similar. Sure Culpepper has more yards per start but he also has been able to play in pass heavy offenses so we’ll call that a wash.
The important part is that over the last 3 years, Jackson has improved in ypa, QB rating, completion percentage and TD/turnover ratio. Culpepper has stayed the same or declined in every category.
As to your, Culpepper could have given Jackson more time to develop nonsense, that’s ridiculous. Jackson would have not only had to start his rookie year, but had to start more games than he already was forced to. Culpepper was only able to play 4 games in 2006 and Jackson would have started 12 games instead of 5.
Oh yea, and I almost forgot! Culpepper RETIRED last year because no one wanted him. Oh wait, correction. No one wanted him except the 0-16 Lions. And even they had to think about it.
Long story short, the Dolphins gave us a 2nd round pick for a guy that played in 4 games for them. Who got the better deal? Even though Cook sucks he has to have played at least 4 decent games in the last 3 years.
Bad comparison
With the Dolphins and Raiders (2 teams decidedly worse than the Vikings of 2006-2008), Culpepper’s rating was higher than TJ’s career rating today (which is the highest it’s ever been at the beginning/end of any season). I’m sure TJ’s rating and other stats would have been even worse had he played for the worst team ever last season.
The Chiefs and Patriots were also interested, but Culpepper liked the idea of playing the Vikes if he had to be stuck on a terrible team. The Patriots decided to just go with what they had a few hours after Culpepper’s retirement e-mail.
You are comparing stats.
QB Stats are dependent upon your surrounding talent.
You cannot compare stats for a guy playing for four different teams in 5 years to a guy playing for the same team for three years.
The fact that Culpepper was traded during an injury is the major reason he has had such difficulty finding steady work.
The bottom line is: Culpepper is a more talented QB NOW than Tjack is. That may change in the future, but Culpepper would have been a better option for us from 06-present.
Right.
I hope that Tyrell turns out to be great. My biggest problem with him is that it means that the Vikings will feel the need to keep going with the Cedric Griffin experiment at CB since he’s pretty much roadblocked at both safety positions by a high-dollar FA and someone younger and more promising. Still, it will be a while before I change my mind completely about DeSean Jackson. He would have been Harvin a year earlier, but as a true WR with a lesser chance of being hurt that way than to also work out of the backfield on gimmick plays.
Yes, it would have meant passing on Harvin this year, and I’d be fine with that for a good CB (Vontae Davis or my favorite on paper, Darius Butler) or LB (Connor Barwin or James Laurinitis, who had been considered the best PLAYER available by some I’d read) or Michael Oher (also highly rated, or Loadholt if they were that sold on him) in the 1st and CB Sherrod Martin in the 2nd. I’ve forgotten whether BB was signed before or after the draft, but had DeSean been able to ward off that signing (I like BB, don’t get me wrong), then Nicks, Britt or Robiskie could have been good picks in the 1st, too.
My feelings about Cook are worse than Cedric Griffin in the sense that I’d almost like to see Cook get a real shot at playing center, his real position, where his false starts wouldn’t be flagged as often. I’m frustrated that I shouldn’t be so down on these 2 players if the coaches would just stop miscasting them.
Chilly has as much involvment in free agent signings and dratees as anyone in the Vikings organization.
Chilly also came into a mess of a locker room and yes has gone .500 the last three years, but he has gone from 6-10, 8-8, 10-6 that is worth mentioning not ignoring.
Many people say Chilly was too conservative last year. What would you do if you have Gus and T.Jack? Open up the playbook too much and those guys turn the ball over, look what happened against Philly.
Chilly may or may not be a great coach, but he gets too much critisism for a guy that has steadily improved his football team every year. The overall talent on the team has gone up every year with this year the best so far.
Yeah Chilly wanted to ease in Peterson his first year b/c they had Chester and they didn’t want a rookie going out and getting injured which he was for two games anyway.
Tyrell is a better fit with the Vikes than Jackson(having Harvin helps). They were able to let Sharper go for a reason and Tyrell could be a Pro Bowler in a year or two.
Bobby Wade wasent great but he did lead the Vikes in receptions the last two season. Its just based on the talent the Vikes have obtained at WR, he was no longer needed. The Vikes weren’t as deep at WR the last few years so he was needed.
What will you anti-Chilly guys say if the Vikes go 11-5 or 12-4 and win a playoff game or more. Will he be just as big an idiot to you guys then? Or will he finally be considered a good coach?
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
A mess of a locker room that was created by an owner who would not spend money on talent that is not a cancer.
So, if you don’t have the money, you go out and get players with issues who also have talent. See: Onterrio Smith.
Chilly may or may not be a great coach, but he gets too much critisism for a guy that has steadily improved his football team every year. The overall talent on the team has gone up every year with this year the best so far.
He is the coach, not the head of personnel, and the increase in talent has nothing to do with Chilly. The increase in money available to purchase talent has gone up, and in turn the talent level has gone up, nothing more.
To say this year is the best so far is plain silly. Did you forget about last year? It is WAAAAY too early to say this year is the best yet.
Look, there is no doubt that Chilly has built a solid team, but you can’t say that he is a good game-time decision maker.
We need a coach that can recognize what the other team is doing and make adjustments to our game plan.
We need a coach that makes good decisions about the game clock.
We need a coach that tailors his offense to take advantage of the talent he has, rather that forcing the talent he has to play in his system.
We need a coach that DOESN’T rest the entire season on the shoulders of a guy who was thrown into the game 3 years too early.
He makes poor decisions when under the gun, you cannot deny that. That is a trait that does not make a good head coach.
He had to handle the Taylor deal like that, IMO
Look, he ran off Culpepper (Daunte played a great part in running himself off too) he cut Marcus Robinson on Christmas Eve, and I remember there being some discord in the locker room—-Antoine Winfield sitting out of minicamps, having that ‘clear the air’ dinner with Chilly, etc. I’m not saying he had lost the locker room, but I think he really needed to build a bridge back to the veterans, and by just not giving the job to AP and keeping Chester a big part of the offense, he did that. By letting AP pretty much win the job on the field, he kept discord to a minimum.
As for the drafts, hindsight is 20/20 and it’s easy once a few years have passed to say they should have drafted this guy over that guy, but I like the amount of talent he’s brought in since 2006. And getting a second round pick for a one kneed, malcontent QB was a good trade. I’ll give you using that pick for Cook was questionable, but I do believe Ryan Cook has started more games since 2006 than Daunte Culpepper. I’m just sayin’…
Brett Favre is a Viking, and John Smoltz is a Cardinal. The Cubs and Packers still suck. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I agree.
He was smart to ease AP into the game, allowing him to show that he is the game-changer that he is, rather than screwing CT by starting AP over him. That would have probably been the last straw for the rest of the veterans.
But, Daunte was not a malcontent until Chilly came to town. The guy was a great QB during the time he played, save for the fumbling issue.
Which would you rather have?
A guy who throws 39TD’s , 11 INT’s and loses 9 fumbles, or a guy who throws 22TD’s and 22INT’s and loses 3 fumbles?
Not a slant on Favre, even if it looks like one.
I think Culpepper decided to be an ass to whoever the new coach would be
once Tice got fired. He loved Tice, by all accounts, and Culpepper decided he wanted $10 million/yr. I honest to God think Culpepper expected Chilly to kiss his ass, and when he didn’t, he sulked like a girl down in Florida while rehabbing his knee.
Look, there’s blame to go around on both sides, but Culpepper picked the fight, and really didn’t gage who he was dealing with. Childress could have tried to mend fences and start over, but he had just come out of that bullshit with Terrell Owens in Philly, and there was NO WAY he was going to put up with another Diva, so he called Daunte’s bluff on the trade.
Obviously you want the more productive quarterback, but Culpepper has been nowhere close to his 2004 form, so cherry picking stats to compare and contrast is a red herring, because I could flip the stats argument this way:
Who would you rather have, a first ballot hall of famer who holds every significant passing record in the game, to include wins, or a one-kneed quarterback who is currently the backup in Detroit with a career winning pct. below .500?
Brett Favre is a Viking, and John Smoltz is a Cardinal. The Cubs and Packers still suck. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I think in talking about whether you want Culpepper
You have to consider more than just the stats you get on the field. You have to talk about off the field stuff.
IMO/ Obviously other teams are, he’s not exactly been overwhelmed with starting offers.
Also you have to recognize those stats are pretty old now. You can go in Favre’s past and great stats like that too.
As KC has already pointed out, you cannot really attribute the FA signings to Chilly. You attribute them to Zigi.
You don’t think that Tice would have signed BB, JA and Madieu if they were available and he had the cash to spend on them? Red McCombs was the cheapest SOB ever to own an NFL franchise, at least that I can remember.
No, these signings had nothing to do with Chilly. AP and Harvin were not Chilly either. Harvin and AP were dominant players that were not supposed to go that late simply falling into the hands of Colonel Mustard.
Greenway was a Chilly pick and the Vikes never would have signed Hutchinson if not for Chillies influence.
Drafting Harvin was something that Chilly went over with a fine tooth comb so the organization(Ziggy) would be okay with it.
The character turnaround in the Viking locker room and success of the team as a whole starts and ends with Childress. Yes Ziggy will spend the money, but has already admitted Chilly making some big decisions and having a better football mind than he does.
Its okay there will be no choice at this seasons end but to give Chilly the praise and respect he deserves.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
Harvin
Chilly went over that selection with a fine toothed comb so that HE would be okay with 1) drafting a WR in the first round (Andy Reid gave him permission a few minutes before the 22nd pick); 2) whether Chilly and Harvin would have any of the other character conflicts as he’d had with other talented WRs; 3) whether he could find any reason at all to not draft Harvin.
A fine toothed comb?
He flew down to see Harvin so he could “Smell his car” to see if he could detect pot smoking. That is hardly going down with a fine toothed comb. If he had ANY brains, he would ask someone who actually smokes pot if that is even possible.
You can smoke 3 huge blunts in a car with the windows rolled up, and an hour later the car smells of nothing so long as they don’t leave the roaches in the car.
AND OF COURSE Zygi is going to say that a person like Childress has a better football mind than he does. I mean, Chilly has been working in football his entire life, and Zygi is a real estate investor.
That does not mean anything.
Hutchinson and LBs
So Chilly scouts out the best guard in the NFL…good for him. Zygi probably asked his neighbor’s kid who the highest rated guard on Madden was and was able to concur with Chilly’s assessment.
The LBs, as you say, probably are hand-picked by Childress (along with LDE Ray Edwards). So why isn’t that very talented LB corp making a larger % of tackles? Every year, Viking CBs are among the league leaders in tackles by a CB tandem. Where are the LBs on those extra 50+ plays per year? Are they slow or lacking in awareness or what? There must be at least one weak link…
Or a strong link.
We play a version of the cover 2, where the corners are often responsible for the flats in run plays.
When nobody wants to try to run up the middle against you, they are going to run to the outside.
Take a look at other teams that run similar defensive schemes, they tend to have a higher percentage of CB tackles than LB tackles.
tackles
this is also because they can’t run they pass more often so the cb’s get more tackles
by montana vikes fan on Sep 18, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Cover-2
is a very popular scheme, so there is still something lacking in our version of it. I know what you mean (TB CBs had a lot of tackles, etc.), but why aren’t the other teams leading in that every year since Cedric Griffin entered the league instead?
Ray Edwards plays on the outside, too. I’m just saying that it can’t be 100% as good as it’s supposed to be.
Greenway
I wonder if Chilly read USA Today:
Teams looking for consistency will certainly be interested in Greenway. He does have some high mileage on his surgically repaired right knee, but has played relatively problem-free the last three years. Even with his lofty tackles, this is not a heat seeking missile in the Derrick Brooks mold, but a safe pick for a team looking for a steady, unspectacular performer.
No wonder Chilly liked him: damaged goods (which can provide a nice excuse if need be), perceived as a safe pick and, most importantly, unspectacular (he just doesn’t care to work with highly talented players).
Players available in the next 20 or so picks in ‘06: CB Antonio Cromartie, DE Tamba Hali, CB Kelly Jennings, several good RBs and some guy named SB MVP Santonio Holmes. I like Greenway ok, but it’s not like he was the absolutely best player available (in terms of our ability to say so far).
As much as I like Chilly bashing
At the end of the day, Chilly still had to sign off on these guys. If there were injury concerns or character issues, he had to choose to let them be drafted or make a case for them. You could say that they were drafted in spite of Chilly, but I don’t think that is the case. I am not saying that Chilly didn’t need some of this coaches and player development staff shouting at him to consider player x…but at the end of the day he listened. That has to count for something.
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 18, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
FREE CAR!
Do you sign off on it, even if it’s not exactly what you’d buy if you had the $? Especially if the bus is your other option?
Thoughts...
The question would be how would the Vikings do? How would Adrian Peterson do as a rookie to now? Minnesota picked up Hutchinson and the big Fullback (6th lineman) Richardson for that season. Matt Birk coming off injury to play was also important. When you are running behind those guys, there is a less chance of injury and breaking down during through out season. My feelings are that Chester Taylor coming off that big year was important too. Less pressure on Peterson to be 1# that year, and a two headed running back situation is helpful. Plus if we all remember the opposing fans from other teams (for me- my hated Packer Fans) stating that Peterson is a bust, he is injury prone. At that time there was a concern with Peterson’s shoulder and durability.
For the teams that did not draft him. The other top six teams would need him be the guy that year, someone to impact the starting roster right away. Oakland, Detroit, Cleveland, Buccaneers needed offensive help, but Peterson did not have the tools to succeed there. Arizona and Washington each had top end running backs at that time in James and Portis, they did not need to draft a back up, they wanted to build their team with impact starters.
Just my Opinion to consider
Also…I feel people were waiting for McFadden, if Mcfadden would have been in the draft that year, he would have been taken earlier than Peterson.
Didn't have the tools to succeed there?
So you’re saying that AP’s 2 Pro Bowls are because he’s a product of the system here, and that he isn’t really that great?
... response
I feel he would not have grown as fast (to become great) if he was getting knocked around at the line of scrimmage every play. His injury as a rookie might of be more horrific.
The supporting cast helped develop the Greatness he has.
Agreed
He would still be amazing but playing for such a talented team right off the bat and playing in a run heavy offense probably accelerated his rise to greatness and prolonged his career.
Only two of those teams have offensive lines that can run block NOW. Only one had a line that could run block THEN. And that line was blocking for Clinton Portis so Peterson wasn’t really an option there.
I think that getting injured
as a rookie would have been worse than getting injured later in your career. At least at that point, you know how to play your position, so if you have to compensate you know how. If you haven’t learned the specifics, it may never click. You spend your whole life before an injury used to doing things a certain way. That impacts how well you learn. If you suddenly have to learn a different way, you likely wouldn’t learn as much.
Case in point, if he was playing behind a worse line and getting laid out as a rookie, the risk of injury goes up. Other than that, I don’t think he benefited being drafted by the vikes more than any other team. It’s not like we had this great passing game to spread the field for him.
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 18, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Two Words
Offensive line. Who cares about the passing game? Fitzgerald, Boldin, Breaston and Warner haven’t been able to create a running game in Arizona. It starts with the offensive line and none of the teams ahead of us has/had nearly the line he has now. That means more space, less hits and a longer career. Not to mention more productive.
no division title last year, no Favre
The Vikings are a solid team on paper without Peterson. The Bears would likely have won the division last year though, and Favre wouldn’t have come to the team. We’d still be fielding Jackson and be stuck between 7-9 wins every year.
Childress might even be gone by now without Peterson.
It hurts my head to think about it though. AD is such a hard working, humble guy and geez what an incredible football player. If alternate universes exist and the Vikings don’t have AP in them, I don’t want to visit.
by peterplaysbass on Sep 18, 2009 11:46 AM CDT reply actions
Good questions
Although it’s been great watching AP dominate in purple, it is possible that the team could be more balanced now had the organization chosen a different player (as long as said player was productive).
Scenario #1: The Vikings could have chosen a DB instead. Darrelle Revis at that point, picked up another RB to complement Taylor on the cheap and moved Cedric Griffin to nickel and/or safety. Revis went to the Pro Bowl last year, and Griffin never will (as a CB, anyway). There were several good safeties available, also. Any of them would have saved the team the expense of signing Madieu Williams and allowed them to draft WR DeSean Jackson instead of Tyrell Johnson in 2008. Leon Hall has put up some impressive numbers, too (especially passes defensed) and may still go to one or more Pro Bowls before he’s done. Aaron Ross has been a primary starter for the Giants, and obviously he didn’t hold them back from winning games (including the SB) with ginormous cushions or getting torched too often.
Scenario #2: The Vikings could have chosen a LB. Patrick Willis and Jon Beason actually have had better career values according to p-f-r. Lawrence Timmons of the SB Champion Steelers was available. Surely there would have been a way to find a spot for a LB like one of these…say, instead of Leber? Even though it looked like the Vikes had plenty of talent at that position, one of those draftees probably could have been more helpful than the players enlisted for the starters’ injuries since then. Has anybody else wondered why our CBs consistently get so many tackles despite all of the talent in our front 7? There must be a weak link somewhere…
Scenario #3: The Vikings could have chosen a WR or TE. ROY Dwayne Bowe, the Colts’ Anthony Gonzalez and the Dolphins’ Ted Ginn, Jr. (a true WR with outstanding returning abilities) were available. TEs Greg Olson and Zack Miller could have been improvements over Shiancoe. The TJ Faithful should wish that their man had had a chance to throw to one of these guys and Bobby Wade instead of Bobby Wade and [LOL]. (I can laugh now that it’s over.)
Scenario #4: The Vikings could have selected a QB. Brady Quinn and Trent Edwards were available. I would dare say that had the Vikings employed a QB as effective as Edwards in 2008, a Super Bowl would have been within reach (or at least a playoff win or two). I still think that Brady Quinn’s best days are ahead of him, and that we may see him have a better 2009 than we’re likely to ever see from Tarvaris Jackson.
Scenario #5: The Vikings could have traded down and still gotten RB Marshawn Lynch and/or one of the players already mentioned.
2) AP would have positively impacted OAK or DET similarly since both would have leaned on AP even more than the Vikes did in ‘07. OAK would have been the perfect place for Culpepper to stay for a few years, in my humble opinion: so little protection that he would be scared into scrambling enough to make the defense hesitate, and Al Davis loves to throw downfield. That team definitely would have been better off taking AP than JaMarcus Russell. AP probably could have impacted the Bucs except they probably were in denial that their Caddie was able to take them wherever they wanted to go (I suppose that would have been like Chilly’s failure to acknowledge that AP was the better back for about 1/2 the season). He possibly could have been similarly productive with the Browns and Cardinals (but OT was a much greater need for them). His style is more conducive to running behind poor lines than 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust Tim Hightower or “Yeah Well I’m Older Than That Dust” Lewis, and the Cards may have won the SB with him had their replacement OT protected Warner almost as well.
The only guy I think
Might match the “fun factor” in terms of watching, while also making us an improved team, would be Willis. That guy is a stud. That said, EJ would’ve likely gone to waste and it’s always hard to project how things fall after just because of the different situations. Well thought out here, though.
#2 is ludicrous
The Vikings run a Cover 2 defense. That means lots of zone coverages which keeps our corners close to the line of scrimmage more than most teams. Add in the fact that we have the best pair of tackling cornerbacks in the entire league and you get lots of opportunities. Griffin and Winfield are both good cover men but their biggest strength is their ability to provide support against the run.
You shouldn’t be asking what’s wrong that our corners get so many tackles, but rather is there a connection to our tackling corners and the fact that our defense has lead the league in run defense 3 years in a row?
Also, regarding #1, why would moving Griffin and drafting a corner mean we didn’t need Madieu Williams? Would Griffin have somehow slowed Sharper’s aging process? It’s a moot point anyways because Revis is a man cover corner, not a zone corner. He wouldn’t have worked well in our system.
p.s. #3, Ted Ginn sucks. Oh yea, and Trent Edwards was a 3rd round pick. Not sure how he enters into this discussion.
#2
Nice breakdown on the scenarios.
Your question about why our CBs get so many tackles is a good one, but I don’t think it’s due to a failure on the part of the LBs in pass coverage. Leber, especially, does a man’s job of it out there in the coverage and I think he’s a key to our success in run blocking in the second level as well.
My thought on it is that our secondary is more reactive than pro-active. The style of play that the Vikings practice is very conservative and most times our secondary is willing to give up a caught pass if they can guarantee being able tackle the receiver. Like accepting a treat-able wound in order to avoid the death-blow of a TD. I’m not saying that I like this, in fact it drives me a little bit mad, watching them react to the receivers rather than pro-actively going after the ball themselves. Winfield has been breaking from that pattern somewhat, but we have no real ball-hawks in our secondary. The answer to why we have so many tackles is the converse to the question, ‘why don’t we have more interceptions?’.
On Culpepper…. I wish we could have kept him, but I remember what an absolute jackass he was towards the end. His attitude was flippant, sullen, and insubordinant with Childress and he was almost daring Childress to boot him. He embodied everything that was wrong with the Vikings, everything that we saw in the ‘Love Boat’ incident and Moss’ foolishness. Those two thought they were untouchable and their attitude lost us some great players beyond them (every time I see Smoot holding the line for the Redskins, I grit my teeth, and I have no love for Randy Moss in NE either). Ultimately, this was all Tice’s fault for failing to be a real HC and take our superstars in hand, but it’s the team that has paid a horribly heavy price for it. Culpepper had to go, and it’s taken years to purge the toxic attitudes from both him and Moss. Sending both Culpepper and Moss together to Oakland would have continued their issues indefinitely, breaking them up was the right choice.
One other thing… anyone who thinks our QB issues are resolved has been distracted by the Vikings and media slight-of-hand track. No matter how wonderful Favre is, or how brilliantly he plays, or whether or not he takes us to a Lombardi trophy… he’s just a very short-term answer to the problem. The Vikings still need a solid #1 QB, they’ve just delayed the panic for a year, maybe two….
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Griffen is good maybe great
He may go to the Pro Bowl as a CB. That was a great INT he had against Cleveland. I know I have high hopes…
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
I hope so too.
But I have to disagree with you on the INT. That was not a “great”, nor was it even “good”.
Cedric was out of position on that play and got lucky. The ball was supposed to come inside to the receiver and Quinn just overthrew it.
Though, that one-hander last year was pretty darn impressive.
Might Johnson have fallen to #7?
He’s managed to make a name for himself while being stuck on the worst team ever… even with T-Jack throwing to him I think he’d be giving this offense almost as much of a boost as AD… if not directly then by opening up the field for the running game.
megatron is a monster! he’s the best wr in the league. if he were on almost any other team he’d be putting up better numbers than fitz or moss.
by iseepurplepeople on Sep 18, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
AD at 7 overall
Is a bigger steal than Moss at 21. Adrian Peterson is the best player in the league. Our team would be completely different without him. No disrespect to Chester. But sure he ran for 1200 in 06 and we were 6-10. We have improved 2 wins each year since AD was drafted. Huge difference. I couldn’t believe it when he fell into our laps at 7. It was a dream come true.
Moss was the best player in the league in 1999 in case you forgot.
Taking arguably the best WR ever, talent wise, at #21 is a better bet than taking possibly the best RB ever at #7.
Not only was it 14 picks later, but we could have gotten 12 productive years out of Moss had we handled him properly and we are likely to get 6-7 out of AP.
And don’t put our 6-10 season on Chester. We were 6-10 because we were starting a new system and had just gutted our team. Chester did what was asked of him, and put up a monster year.
WOW!
Moss was never the best player in the league, not even in 07 when he had 23 TD’s. I believe Kurt Warner was the best player in 99. He’s been the best wr in the league at times but not the best player.
Moss is not arguably the best wr ever. And I dont even understand the logic of best wr at 21 vs best rb at 7.???
I didnt put the blame on Chester for going 6-10. I was just pointing out that AD was the best choice even though we already had an adequate back on the team.
I cant believe you are even comparing the importance of the running game to that of a diva wr!??? A good running game and solid defense are what win championships, er in case you forgot.
Yes, he is not the best based on his performance.
But he is one of the best in pure talent. If he had not squandered his talents by being immature and uncooperative, he could have been the best receiver ever. Being the best receiver ever would put you in the range of being the best player in the league at that time.
But we can agree to disagree on that point.
My logic for best WR vs best RB at 7 vs 21 is that WR’s have a longer shelf life than a RB. If you have a strong supporting cast they can be more valuable.
Who do you think would have benefited our team more in the last three years, AP or Moss in his prime? Without AP we would still have Chester and would also have a legitimate receiving threat.
I am not saying receiving is more important than the running game. But I am saying that if I had to choose between having a 1200 yard rusher with a legitimate passing game vs having a 2000 yard rusher and no passing game, I would probably choose the latter.
No Way
Moss was the best player in the league for years, and you got him at #21!
AP fell too you guys because there were actually a lot of scouts that didn’t like his running style. They said he ran to straight up and down (which is probably true), making him even more injury prone…we know how that turned out….thanks a lot Kiper Jr.
But back to the point there is no way AP was more of a steal then Moss.
by packallday555 on Sep 20, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
-100
stick to what you know, cheese, packing, losing to the bungles.
AD would have been a steal if drafted #1!
+1
i guess people forget how electrifying moss was for years after being drafted. remember the randy ratio? how many other players in the league get that?
by iseepurplepeople on Sep 22, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
How'd that Randy Ratio turn out?
I know Moss was electrifing. I know Moss was a great player. I still have his jerseys and posters. You just can’t compare the effect that having the best running game and best player in league to the effect of the Randy ratio.
I think 98 and 15-1 has people thinking that Moss was the greatest Viking ever. A lot of things came together that year, including Moss yes. But Peterson on that team would have put us over the top, no doubt. AD + 98 Vikes = Super Bowl victory.
"We Szekelys have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-Bram Stoker
Yea, but we are talking about AP vs Randy Moss.
Using that argument, we would have to remove Randy Moss from the equation. In that case, our passing game would not be nearly as dominant as it was.
Don’t forget that we had Robert Smith in 98, it’s not like we didn’t have a rushing game.
Dont forget that we had
Cris Carter, Jake Reed, Matthew Hachette, Chris Walsh, David Palmer, and Andrew Glover in 1998.
Youre right about one thing, our ability to agree to disagree. But a lot of what has been said by your side is what if’s and coulda shoulda. Moss “could be the best if not for his attitude.” Or Moss is not the best but the “most talented.” “Could have been the best .”
AD IS the best because of his freakish ability and his tremendous work ethic. You also argue longevity. I’m arguing for right here right now. And we don’t know what’s in store for AD. If we keep a solid #2, his career can be extended to 8-10 years.
Ultimately, in retrospect, AD was the best player in the 2007 draft and if every team had the chance to a do-over, he would have been taken #1. Moss would not have been drafted ahead of Peyton Manning or Charles Woodson and maybe even Kyle Turley.
The Randy ratio was a gimmick for TIce to save his a$$ that failed.
"We Szekelys have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-Bram Stoker
i didn’t say the randy ratio was a good idea, my point was how many other recievers have ever had 40% of the offensive plays aimed at them? none to the best of my knowledge.
and if tice had kept quiet about it, it probably would have had more success. even now, moss is still arguably one of the best recievers in the league in his 12th season. that’s more than just good. that’s more than just great. he’s one of the best recievers to ever play the game.
by iseepurplepeople on Sep 25, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
What if??
Gary Anderson never missed that FG against Atlanta?, What if we never got rid of Moss? What if we never got rid of Culpepper? What if we never got rid of Denny Green?…………………………………..I could do this all day and none of it matters.
+1
it is interesting, but just for a few moments during the middle of the week. I still see the team much as it is now. Dedicated to the run and good at it. Maybe a little better at one or two other positions but not different in any big way. Chilly is still the coach and I do not see much of any change in the way they play the game.
by montana vikes fan on Sep 18, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, if we're playing 'what if' with a way back machine
What if the Vikes give the ball to Chuck Foreman on the Oakland 3 instead of Brent McClanahan and he scores, and the Vikes take the lead in SB XI?
What if offensive pass intereference was called against Drew Pearson?
What if the Vikings joined the AFL in 1960 instead of the NFL?
Let’s not play ‘what if’ any more. I gets the sads…
Brett Favre is a Viking, and John Smoltz is a Cardinal. The Cubs and Packers still suck. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
That headline
Made me vurp (vomit/burp) in my mouth. But then I looked on Vikings.com, saw that Adrian Peterson was still on the roster, and everything was right with my world again.
by Eric J. Thompson on Sep 18, 2009 12:51 PM CDT reply actions
+1
What a way to ‘think the unthinkable’, lol
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Since this post is about me ...
First, I want to thank all of my fans and Jesus. Next, there have been a lot of rumours about me. The yardage I piled up last Sunday? That’s true. That happened. Y’all saw it. Secondly, I’m not injury prone. I fight through all injuries and maladies. Just like I’m fighting my battle against AIDS right now. No, I didn’t get it from Freddie Mercury. I’m too young, so get your minds out of the gutter. I get them from Magic Johnson. So, now it’s out.
by Adrian Peterson on Sep 18, 2009 1:34 PM CDT reply actions
My thoughts on this
All Day was passed on over concerns over his health. Childress had low need for a running back. But they were smart enough and could see his immense potential and took him. Kudos to Chilly dog.
The Vikings would still be good today had they not taken All Day. Probably not as good but it is hard to really say basically because of the butterfly effect. Logic would say they wouldn’t be nearly as good today but perhaps that one change then leads to a bunch of other changes and who knows. I don’t really think there is a good answer to this question.
Would he have done as much on another team. No. The Vikings were already the most committed team in the NFL to the running game before he came. They were already one of the better running teams. They have collected mostly run blocking linemen and tight ends. Most likely this was the best place for him to land. But don’t kid yourself either, he’d have been a beast on any other team and within a couple few years would have transformed any coach into a running minded coach and they’d start building that way. It is just that the team was already ready to run prevalently when he got here.
reply to "My thoughts on this"
Look Sand), you’re absolutely 100% right. The concerns about my health are ridiculous. I’m still healthy as a horse for the next couple of years at least. Now I’m focused on football. I’m usually not cocky, but I’m gonna lay it out right here, the Vikings will finish 2nd in the NFC North this year. We’re gonna do it baby! I guarantee it. We probably gonna drop 2 to GB, but I have this to say before you get too down … there’s always next year baby. There’s always next year.
by Adrian Peterson on Sep 18, 2009 1:41 PM CDT reply actions
It's me again, Adrian
Remember last year fellas? We almost lost to the Detroit Lions twice? In two games, we beat them by a total of 6 points? Those were big games man. Detroit is our biggest rivalry dudes. Get jacked up for those games this year because we always have a hard time with them. Even Peter King thinks we gonna lose. So, get fired up … and bring some vaseline.
by Adrian Peterson on Sep 18, 2009 1:52 PM CDT reply actions
D-town sold out last year to stop the run and we couldn't pass.
So they got close. They did’t win. The Packers are the Vikes biggest rivelry. They actually beat us last year and have a better team entirly that might pose a threat to the Vikes winning the division. So no the Lions are no the Vikes biggest rival. I usually respect others opinions, but not in this case.
Bernard, Percy and AP oh my!
No vaseline
just a match and a little bit of gasoline. Whenever I asked my dad too many questions as a kid he’d ask me, What if a cow?
If the Vikes hadn't drafted Adrian,
I’d still be trading for him in my Madden franchise. So in that sense, I suppose it doesn’t really matter.
Full Speed Ahead
Last years victories over the Lions were enough to give anyone over 50 a heart attack. The Vikings are already in the right mindset of not overlooking the Lions, it always has been and always will be about execution. Thats the key Sunday, and Brett…please no turnovers. We should make a statement this week, whether we do or not…? We’ll find out soon enough. As for Adrian.. there is no way he rushes for more yardage than he has thus far behind another left side O line as good as ours. He is an incredibly talented back, as is Chester, Chester just doesn’t have that “wow” factor.
King KC
JetCity, Queen and the gang want your email address…I don’t have it.
Old Strib bloggers!!
I cannot log onto the old AV Blog anymore, doesnt allow me to, I tried getting a new email addy and name but was thwarted..good to see some old peeps over here
Reality
Who ever is posting as Adrian Peterson is funny. Must be a Packer’s fan, you know unemployeed in a trailer park eating Cheetos. Come up with the gay references is funny to a point, but constantly bring it up should bring up questions about yourself. Packer fans are very unhappy these days. I wonder why?
The Real Reality
You forgot that I’m just sitting around in what were once whitey tighteys, now stained orange in the crotch from eating cheetos and scratching to itch in my pubes cuz with cheeto powder on my fingers and I haven’t showered in weeks. I should switch to powdered donuts so I don’t stain them anymore … well, at least the outside of them.
But please, the Vikes aren’t the Packers’ biggest rivalry. The Bears are the Packers’ biggest rivals. The Vike’s are only the Packers biggest rivals for the guys who are running around in Big Johnson shirts and the "what I learned in school’ shirts with the beer cans from around the world on them.
To true old school Packer fans and to the Packers themselves, the Bears are enemy #1.
There have been some spirited Packers / Vikings games, yes. People blew the Randy Moss fake mooning out of porportion and that’s how this so-called rivalry got started. Favre was always over there checking out Ragnar’s viking inny-dick & nuts all of the time before games and yucking it up with him. I hardly call that part of a heated rivalry.
by Adrian Peterson on Sep 18, 2009 3:59 PM CDT reply actions
Yep
Enemy #1 = Bears
Enemy #2 = Favr…er…Vikings.
by Packattack88 on Sep 19, 2009 4:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Depends on who you ask
Vikes hate packers the most because they are the closest to us. Lots of people leave wisconsin because it sucks so bad and many wind up here. Almost all packers fans living in the minneapolis area hate the vikes worse than the bears. It is all about proximity. The opposing team you are closest to you hate the worst.
But right now there is no comparison in rivalry. The packers hate the vikings the worst right now. This will be very evident during those two games.
Agreed.
Considering most of the larger metro areas are right along the border with WI, most of the people in Minnesota consider the Packers to be their biggest rivalry.
The Packer fans that live in Green Bay and Milwaukee view the Bears as their biggest rivalry.
But all of that changed with the signing of Brett Favre.
Right
Many view our biggest rival as the Bears but I think that has recently been changing and with the addition of Favre I think the Vikes are now our biggest rivals.
by packallday555 on Sep 20, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Detroit = MN biggest Rival
I guess I see that. I went to school near the WI/MN border and everyone there hated the Vikes more than the Packers. The eastern half def. hates Chi. more.
Either way, nice for the Vikes to finally get a convincing win over their real biggest rival, Detroit. It’s going to be tough for GB to stop Peterson. There’s no doubt in my mind that AP is the best player in the game. It’s hard to hate a guy who plays so hard and doesn’t run his mouth. The addition of Favre to the Pack/Vike games will make it a better game. Anyone who hates Favre for going to the Vikings is an idtiot. Plain and simple. Look, I’m not gonna cheer for him but the Packers clearly told him they were moving on without him. At that point, if he wants to play for the Vikes, that’s his deal. It’s ridiculous to call him a trader or a ‘Judas’. I got sick of his waffling every year about retirment and I thought GB needed a change on offense. I was sad when he retired, but was not unhappy about a change in QB. The thing is, right now there are a lot of Pack fans who jumped on the bandwagon in the 90s and forgot about the decades of losing. So, they’re spoiled and expect a Super Bowl every year from the Pack. If they don’t get it, then these fans who go to the games and get so sh*t faced they can’t remember the final score, then come in to work after watching the recap on ESPN and badmouth everyone on the team and tell everyone how they would’ve done it, they think everyone in the organization should be hung. Those are the Packers fans who think Favre’s a trader and who think MN & GB are ‘huge rivals’.
Anyway, the Pack will give up a ton of yards to Peterson this year but will rack up a ton of sacks on Favre and about a half dozen picks. No way MN wins either game. Even if GB plays without offensive tackles like they’ve done for the first two weeks.
Finally, I will comment on the actual topic of this post – If MN didn’t take Peterson, they were planning on taking superstar defensive tackle, Justin Harrell. They weren’t expecting Peterson to be around. Green Bay took Harrell just because Green Bay likes to fight an uphill battle. They love it. Eat that sh*t up for breakfast, lunch & dinner. Eat thunder, crap tornados, and p*ss razorblades. That’s the Green Bay way fockers.
by Adrian Peterson on Sep 21, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
What if my aunt had a set of nuts?
She’d be my uncle!!
Thankfully, neither that, not the OP is something we’ll ever have to consider.
Brett Favre is a Viking, and John Smoltz is a Cardinal. The Cubs and Packers still suck. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
ALL DAY # 28 Not good without the Purple
Sorry but if he had not been drafted by the Vikes he would not have excelled not had the Offensive Line the Coaches the experience of Chester Taylor and now Bret Farve. The Vikings were/are the Perfect Storm for All Day Granted he would have been good wherever he went but GREATNESS comes with being a VIKING! Just like Moss was made by the Purple Carter, Cunningham strong Running Game so too Peterson is 30% better because he is on the Vikings.
Haha
“Sorry but if he had not been drafted by the Vikes he would not have excelled not had the Offensive Line the Coaches the experience of Chester Taylor and now Bret Farve.”
Ridiculous comment. The guy is already arguably the greatest RB of all time, he would have been successful if any of those other 6 teams drafted him.
“Just like Moss was made by the Purple Carter, Cunningham strong Running Game.”
Even more ridiculous comment then the first. Carter helped him out and then once the games started Moss outperformed Carter (as a rookie). Cunningham was made by Moss. It isn’t too hard to just throw the ball as high and far as you can, unless your name is Kerry Collins. Moss is the greatest WR ever, and is largely responsible for the successful seasons you guys had with him.
by packallday555 on Sep 20, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Brett is not a member...
so he’ll never see your message here.
try his email address instead.
I believe the 'push off' cost us 'our' SuperBowl...
I believe you 'go for the win'... instead of 'taking a knee'...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Sep 20, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
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