Draft Talk!

Take a lesson from Indy

The colts have drafted late in every round since 2000. You will recognize most of their first round draft picks as cornerstones of the team today. Their theory is simple. First they got a RB and a QB. then they took the absolute best player available that fit in their system. Need drafting is for bad teams. The Vikings have no absolute needs. 1st round is the Best Player Available that fits our systems even if that person is an OG or ILB, positions that don’t normally go 1st round.

Drafts for the Indianapolis Colts 1998-2008

Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 59 Mike Pollak G Arizona State
3 93 Philip Wheeler OLB Georgia Tech
4 127 Jacob Tamme TE Kentucky
5 161 Marcus Howard DE Georgia
6 196 Tom Santi TE Virginia
6 201 Steve Justice C Wake Forest
6 202 Mike Hart RB Michigan
6 205 Pierre Garcon WR Mount Union
7 236 Jamey Richard C Buffalo
2007 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 32 Anthony Gonzalez WR Ohio State
2 42 Tony Ugoh T Arkansas
3 95 Dante Hughes CB California
3 98 Quinn Pitcock DT Ohio State
4 131 Brannon Condren DB Troy State
4 136 Clint Session LB Pittsburgh
5 169 Roy Hall WR Ohio State
5 173 Michael Coe CB Alabama State
7 242 Keyunta Dawson DT Texas Tech
2006 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Joseph Addai RB Louisiana State
2 62 Tim Jennings CB Georgia
3 94 Freddie Keiaho LB San Diego State
5 162 Michael Toudouze G Texas Christian
6 199 Charlie Johnson T Oklahoma State
6 207 Antoine Bethea SS Howard
7 238 T.J. Rushing CB Stanford
2005 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 29 Marlin Jackson DB Michigan
2 60 Kelvin Hayden DB Illinois
3 92 Vincent Burns DE Kentucky
4 129 Dylan Gandy G Texas Tech
4 135 Matt Giordano DB California
5 148 Jonathan Welsh DE Wisconsin
5 165 Robert Hunt C North Dakota State
5 173 Tyjuan Hagler LB Cincinnati
6 202 Dave Rayner K Michigan State
7 243 Anthony Davis — Wisconsin
2004 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 44 Bob Sanders DB Iowa
3 68 Ben Hartsock TE Ohio State
3 69 Gilbert Gardner LB Purdue
4 107 Kendyll Pope LB Florida State
4 125 Jason David CB Washington State
5 141 Jake Scott G Idaho
6 173 Von Hutchins DB Mississippi
6 193 Jim Sorgi QB Wisconsin
7 229 David Kimball K Penn State
2003 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Dallas Clark TE Iowa
2 58 Mike Doss SS Ohio State
3 90 Donald Strickland FS Colorado
4 122 Steve Sciullo G Marshall
5 138 Robert Mathis DE Alabama A&M
5 162 Keyon Whiteside LB Tennessee
6 198 Cato June DB Michigan
6 208 Makoa Freitas T Arizona
2002 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Dwight Freeney DE Syracuse
2 42 Larry Tripplett DT Washington
3 74 Joseph Jefferson CB Western Kentucky
4 106 David Thornton LB North Carolina
6 182 David Pugh DT Virginia Tech
6 183 James Lewis — Miami (Fla.)
6 204 Brian Allen RB Stanford
7 220 Josh Mallard DE Georgia
2001 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Reggie Wayne WR Miami (Fla.)
2 37 Idrees Bashir FS Memphis
3 91 Cory Bird DB Virginia Tech
4 118 Ryan Diem G Northern Illinois
5 152 Raymond Walls DB Southern Mississippi
6 193 Jason Doering DB Wisconsin
7 220 Rick DeMulling G Idaho
2000 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 28 Rob Morris LB Brigham Young
2 59 Marcus Washington LB Auburn
3 91 David Macklin DB Penn State
4 122 Josh Williams DT Michigan
5 138 Matt Johnson — Brigham Young
7 235 Rob Renes DT Michigan
7 238 Rodregis Brooks DB Alabama-Birmingham
1999 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 4 Edgerrin James RB Miami (Fla.)
2 36 Mike Peterson OLB Florida
3 63 Brandon Burlsworth — Arkansas
4 96 Paul Miranda DB Central Florida
5 138 Brad Scioli DE Penn State
7 210 Hunter Smith P Notre Dame
7 250 Corey Terry DE Tennessee
1998 – Indianapolis Colts
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Peyton Manning QB Tennessee
2 32 Jerome Pathon WR Washington
3 71 E.G. Green WR Florida State
4 93 Steve McKinney G Texas A&M
5 135 Antony Jordan LB Vanderbilt
7 190 Aaron Taylor G Nebraska
7 231 Cory Gaines — Tennessee

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 5:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

BPA most of the time

In the first round, there will be more than 1 BPA who fits the team’s system, so need becomes a tiebreaker. If teams knew exactly who would be THE best player, then there would never be Pro Bowlers and HoFers in later rounds. Especially considering the high cost of a 1st round pick, it may as well be someone who plays for the team.

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've been calling it since week 5

Patrick Robinson CB FSU. He would be a great addition to our secondary. I can see him replacing Winfield.

Also he fits our Dreadlock mold too. He’ll fit in just fine with Sid, EJ, and ~~Fitzgerald~~ errr griffin if he grows his hair out……………. Ok you a guy can dream.

Ace Deuce- Tell me that is not the coolest nickname ever....... Okayyy maybe "Purple Moses" beats it. :)

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 26, 2010 5:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I like Pat robinson but what if

Donavan Warren is there. How about the best 4-3 pass rushing DE in the draft is there. What if a great DT is available. Some think Spillers, a perfect Chester Taylor replacement , might drop. Are you sure you want to decide on a single player.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Spiller. My favorite college player

But honestly there is no way in Hell hes there at 30 but then again I also said there was no way in hell Percy Harvin would be there at 22 look how that turned out. :) lol

Also Jahvid Best is worth a look. He can flat out run, I wouldnt mind him replacing Chester and I think he fits the role better. CJ reminds me of another certain CJ playing for the Titans and wed have to split carries like 65-35 then. But who sais its a bad thing to have a Chris Johnson prototype and Adrian?

As per Best pass rushing DE, we dont need one. Where will we put him? Jareds the best in the league and Ray deserves that starting role next year.

For DT, I dont think we need one. I really like what I see in Kennedy.

But it all comes down to whos there and whos the best fit.

Ace Deuce- Tell me that is not the coolest nickname ever....... Okayyy maybe "Purple Moses" beats it. :)

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 26, 2010 5:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Your correct

I don’t think Spiller will be their either but who knows. But really it will be difficult for any rookie selected this year to start whether it be a RB, DT, DE, LB, CB. or safety. THats why we are picking 30th. We are that good. Just think in terms of improving the team not in terms of getting another Percy Harvin, Rookie of the Year.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right, Im not looking for a guy that can start

Unless its Patrick. Thats where we could use a starter. Other than that really the only other place we could use an “upgrade” is at RG or FB and Im pretty sure we dont draft a FB in the first round. lol

Right now I want a guy that will add depth and will be ready to step in at key situations ala Jasper, Sapp, Asher, Jamarca, Lewis. You know a (to steal a basketball term) role player.

Ace Deuce- Tell me that is not the coolest nickname ever....... Okayyy maybe "Purple Moses" beats it. :)

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 26, 2010 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well none of those were high round picks

Jasper (5th) Sapp( 4th year free agent) , Asher( 3rd ) , Jamarca ( 7th), Lewis ( 6th year free agent). My point is that good drafting doesn’t only take place in the 1st couple of rounds but immediate starters come from the early rounds. Take an available starter at any position that fits your system. Draft depth after that.

Did you know that only about 50% of all 1st rounders start for their teams at the end of the 1st year?
We all make it out to be a bigger deal than it is. Be an Indy. Draft Best Player Available.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No no I wasnt saying we need to take him in the first round

I’m saying in general I want role guys.

And no I did not know that. Thanks

Ace Deuce- Tell me that is not the coolest nickname ever....... Okayyy maybe "Purple Moses" beats it. :)

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 26, 2010 6:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Your welcome. I'm rarely wrong and not usually right so don't take anything I say with much authority.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 6:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

You are rarely wrong and usually right. But not to be contrarian or anything.

by medicineball on Jan 26, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Give that one a +1000 LOL

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ya you

always have something insightful to say. Btw I love readin you posts. Always a good read

Ace Deuce- Tell me that is not the coolest nickname ever....... Okayyy maybe "Purple Moses" beats it. :)

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 26, 2010 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

I guess I’ll keep posting until most ask me to stop.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

was thinking about making a new use named Most

and asking you to stop but that’s jsut not nice.

by Grime on Jan 27, 2010 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

HAHAHA Nice!

Ace Deuce- Tell me that is not the coolest nickname ever....... Okayyy maybe "Purple Moses" beats it. :)

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 27, 2010 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

NO QB

“OBVIOUSLY, we’re probably losing the Silver Fox to retirement this year and there will be 1,000,000 posts on how we should draft Colt McCoy or someother QB with our first pick but… WE WONT! Chilly has to much pride. Plus, who knows, T-Jack could have a solid 17 TD 10 INT season. Hopefully A.P. is ready to carry the Team again (We know he’s not ready to carry the ball!) Ha, pun intended.”

First off, you apparently don’t know what a pun is.

Secondly, we won’t draft a QB because there will be none worth taking at the bottom of this draft and because this team is in NO position to wait for a rookie QB to mature. Teams have been spoiled the last couple years by the Joe Flacco’s and Mark Sanchez’s of the world but rookie QB’s have historically had little to no success for a reason.

It’s Jackson or a trade, and we won’t be trading. Personally I’m glad Jackson finally had his chance to learn behind a veteran, like we said we were going to do when we drafted him. I’m rather interested to see what he learned from Favre.

by Cobra312004 on Jan 26, 2010 5:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That’s what I thought when I read the “pun intended line”

by TrevorR on Jan 28, 2010 8:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the answer

Mcnabb

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 28, 2010 7:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed...

I’m ready to see what Jackson has learned. You hear of everyone else learning from Favre. I have a feeling that TJack will shut a lot of people up when it is his turn finally.

by Volfie on Jan 30, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The coaching staff already knows how little or much TJ has learned. The McNabb rumours suggest that they feel that he is a good backup at best.

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Vikings draft list

Here is my current list of players I think we can and should get, by draft round. This is based on Pat Williams and Jimmy Kennedy coming back. If not, defensive tackle is a draft need.

1. Jon Asamoah, G, Illinois. Strong run-blocker. He gets to the second level. Just had to pull out of Senior Bowl practice due to a minor shoulder injury. This should drop his draft stock enough to let us get him. Mike Iupati is overrated and will go higher. Asamoah will become the starter apparent at right guard.

2. Brandon Ghee, CB, Wake Forest. Ghee’s 4.45 speed and skinny build (6’0, 191 lbs) can’t hide his ability as a solid tackler and run-defender. He is also a very good pass-coverage guy. He can blitz effectively.

3. Pat Angerer, LB, Iowa. He played middle linebacker at college, and with 4.52 speed, he can play middle linebacker for our Cover-2 defense, but will backup Brinkley and EJ Henderson. Angerer weighs 233 lbs or so, and is a little shorter than a prototypical linebacker (5’11). He should push Ben Leber for playing time at weakside linebacker. He is good in coverage, and with his speed, can blitz the quarterback. He would also push for a special teams job.

4.Walter McFadden, CB, Auburn. Solid tackling cornerback with 4.40 speed, and an SEC background. He is a playmaker, as seen in his 100+ yard interception return for touchdown in the Outback Bowl.

5. Thaddeus Gibson, LB, Ohio State. With 4.64 speed, Gibson is a playmaking linebacker with the ability to get sacks, interceptions, and forced fumbles. He could also contribute on special teams. He will push Greenway for playing time.

6. Tyler Sheehan, QB, Bowling Green. Great arm. Great accuracy. Great intangibles. Took many snaps from a pro set as a four-year starter.

7. Van Eskridge, FS, East Carolina. Playmaking free safety could make the team.

free agent signings:

Terrance Garmon, LB, Rice. Bright-eyed, smart player, with 4.6 speed

Michael Hoomanawanui, TE, Illinois. Great blocking tight end who could eventually take over for Kleinsasser.

Finally, almost worth drafting is Jamar Wall, CB, Texas Tech. He is a hitter. Check out this hit and this one. Unfortunately, Wall’s coverage skills are poor, and were exposed at the East-West Shrine game.

by medicineball on Jan 26, 2010 6:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Nice list. Can't disagree about any but I'm not sure Asamoah is a first rounder.

30th pick to 40th pick is pretty indistinguishable anyway but if one of those lovely top 15 guys fall to us( can you say Percy) I will pass on a guard and get one later. Most experts (and I am not one) think that position is more easily replaced in the mid rounds. But I like Asamoah a lot. Many think Iupati will be available to us.
Wow, were talking draft . How great is that.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

rather be talking about the super bowl

but I get what you mean :D

by Grime on Jan 27, 2010 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Id rather have

Mike Iupati G.. guy is huge and strong. He could very well end up being one of the best G in the league in a year or 2. We need line help in then 2nd if we take a CB in the first. Guard perferably, the move Hutch over to the right side when the drafted G is good and ready.

by hickenizgriz on Jan 26, 2010 7:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, there is no way in hell Iupati is overrated. For anyone who doesn’t believe me, go and look at some highlights of him. He is a beast! Just read on a college football blog that Iupati was by far the most impressive player in practice for the Senior Bowl. Apparently he was so dominant at LG, that executives asked if they could see Iupati line up at LT to see how he would do. I think the Steelers will pick him at 18. They need to establish their physical run game again, and having a big, strong guy who has the pulling capabilities Iupati does could go a long way in helping them do so.

by packallday555 on Jan 26, 2010 10:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I am also a huge fan of Iupati. When I first saw his numbers, I though, “330lbs? That guy is too big for the zone blocking scheme the Vikings run.” But after watching him play, the guy has fast feet and was used a lot as a pulling guard. And when asked to pull, he was always quick down the line and crushing the first guy who came across the edge of the line of scrimmage. He could easily go in the middle of the 1st, but OG isn’t a position that gets picked early due to how much teams would have to pay a position that can just as easily be filled with later round talent at more than half the price. Hopefully he will be there at the bottom of the first.

by vikingfuture8816 on Jan 27, 2010 5:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Trade up

Lupati is a stud. We don’t need 7 draft picks. Lets target some guys and go after them. We all know we should be playing in the Superbowl, but hey it is what it is. Lets take 7 picks and use them to get 2-3 players. If we can get one of the top players we covet fall to us in the 1st round that’s great. Chilly has done a pretty good job with the draft. We have some guys right now that are getting better and will contribute even more this coming season. Lets get that OG or a DB with our 1st pick. Trade up to the middle of the 1st round if we have too. DT are deep this year 2nd or 3rd round could produce a stud. Get the 2 or 3 best guys we can get. Maybe even using next years 2nd or 3rd round pick if it can get us who we want. We don’t need developmental players. We are a Superbowl quality team. We need guys that can come in and contribute now. Replace Herriera & Madieu now. Hell we are already better than the Saints & there playing in the Superbowl.

by iowaron on Jan 29, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Iupati

if he’s available woud not only be the best need person but also the best fit for us. He’s a beast and I think having him in there would boost our run game incredibly. I believe this is THE most important position to upgrade next year. With him we get AP back on top. and that gives whatever QB we have behind him a whole lot of happiness.

Loadholt, Iupati, Sulli, Hutch, and McKinney, Oh my!

by Grime on Jan 29, 2010 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

CB is our biggest need

With RG a close second, if Lupati is available most definite we draft him but I don’t think we should give up a bunch of draft picks to get him either.

by nmvikesfan on Jan 30, 2010 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No I dont think we need to do that

but I also don’t think CB is our biggest worry. Our lack of run game is to me our biggest issue. ESPECIALLY if favre doesn’t come back. We have a lot of young CB’s and Winfield was injured last year. I would not cut him just yet.

by Grime on Feb 1, 2010 8:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes we do

Winfield and Griffin, our starting CBs are having surgery this offseason, Sapp and Paymeh are FA, Asher Allen is the only healthy CB that is signed. There are many good CBs in this draft and we need to grab one in the 1st if not 2nd rd., and possibly another in the 4th or 5th rd. We can find a good OG in the 2nd rd if one is not available in the 1st.

by nmvikesfan on Feb 3, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think we are misunderstanding each other

I don’t have an issue with a CB. I just don’t think we need to get to it in teh first round. I think you can find a starting CB in the second round. I don’t think you can find a starting OG in the second round who will be dominant at that position. Heck we might not find it in the first round… We definitely need DB’s I would hope we draft at least two. Actually, it would be this for me OG, CB, CB/QB, CB/QB, RB, LB, whatever trash is left to play with. where if you pick a CB third you pick a QB fourth and vice versa.

by Grime on Feb 3, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The best thing about Iupati is that there is a chance you wouldn’t have to draft up. I disagree that you guys don’t need your 7 picks though. With the CBA, and you guys basically not being allowed to sign FA’s, you’ll need to draft some depth at some spots. Particulary Cb, with Griffin injured and Winfield supposedly considering foot surgery this offseason.

by packallday555 on Jan 31, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Never thought I would be agreeing with a packer fan

But you are right, we need every draft pick we have and if I am right I believe we will be having eight picks. We should be getting a comp. pick for Birk but I don’t know where the league will value him, we drafted him in the 6th rd but because of his age they may give us a 7th rd pick. Either way we need them all, we need depth and future replacements.

by nmvikesfan on Feb 1, 2010 1:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think he was a 6th pick

by Grime on Feb 1, 2010 8:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sharper as well? I think I saw someone say that you might get a comp. pick for Sharper as well but I’m not positive.

by packallday555 on Feb 1, 2010 8:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No we didn't draft Sharper

You only get a compensation pick when you lose someone you drafted. The draft pick also loses value the older or longer the player is in this league. We drafted Birk in 98 in the 6th rd. but because he was with us for 10+ seasons we may only get a 7th rd comp. pick.

by nmvikesfan on Feb 3, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for letting me know!

by packallday555 on Feb 4, 2010 7:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think

the vikes would be very very pleased with pat angerer. he is a man-child of mythic proportions, and has a motor like jared allen. he is just really, really fun to watch and i think honestly could push any of our current linebackers (including EJ) to start.

I piss people off on a fairly regular basis. I cherish my right to speak my mind, whether I sound like an uneducated savage or not. I've never been accused of keeping what I think a secret, nor will I ever. Don't like it? I don't care.

by IABerserker1 on Jan 26, 2010 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not to mention

he has the coolest name on that list by far.

by archie2227 on Jan 29, 2010 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Love them Hawkeyes.

Iowa does more with less than any school in the country.

by iowaron on Jan 29, 2010 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

his cousin

is a union ironworker out of rockford illinois. i worked with him for about 3 months a couple summers ago. the man was HUGE. conservatively, probably 6’7" and over 300 pounds. and a damned nice guy

I piss people off on a fairly regular basis. I cherish my right to speak my mind, whether I sound like an uneducated savage or not. I've never been accused of keeping what I think a secret, nor will I ever. Don't like it? I don't care.

by IABerserker1 on Feb 6, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

nice post but

if you look who is in the draft in terms of O line i think we are in a position to possibly trade up and get Trent Williams, you wonder about Mckinnie down the road with his off the field actions and over the years he has struggled against speed rushers you could trade Mckinnie with that pick take Williams here is the rest as follows purely opinion let me clarify

30 Patrick Robinson- I havent seen alot of film on him but besides joe haden he has been all the rage here the past few weeks and with Griffth out indefinately this is a must

Rd 2 Dan LeFevour- Lets face it silver fox is going to retire and i dont think anyone really trusts Tjack or Rosenfels, a 4 year starter in college and coming outta the same conference as Big Ben, and Chad Pennington, He was the standout on offense in the senior bowl besides Marty Gilliard that wouldnt be bad either

we’ll see how you guys feel bout these picks

by mad_wacker39 on Jan 30, 2010 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

just a few

Very nice set of points. LeFevour showed up even bigger than I thought he would at the Senior Bowl. Gilyard is going to be real good. I don’t think Patrick Robinson can tackle well, but if he can, great.

On Trent Williams, not to be contrary, but I have heard he is a right tackle only in the NFL. He couldn’t replace McKinnie and his elite speed and ability.

On McKinnie, I am very upset too, but realistically, I doubt we could find anybody even close to him in the draft, free agency, or trading, and if we could (Okung), the price would be incredibly high. McKinnie is our guy, and we gotta stick by him. Maybe he needs to stop drinking so much though. Chill out McKinnie, my man, and live a long healthy life.

I hope something positive can come out of it. McKinnie had his best year as a pro, and he got a lot of criticism in the past couple of months. Will he get angry? Will he focus like he did in preparation for the 2009 season? If he has another great year, maybe even a better one than 2009, it could be part of a super season.

by medicineball on Jan 30, 2010 10:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As per Patrick goes

He can tackle. Heres a video of him that was from one game

I love Twins Baseball and Minnesota Vikings Football.

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 31, 2010 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

That definitely raises my estimation of Robinson. He’s not a huge hitter, but he is good enough tackler for the Vikings.

by medicineball on Jan 31, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well said

I just threw the williams thing out there the Loadholt expertiment worked out this year i just thought it could be nice to see those two on the same line again, I’m no Oklahoma fan but Sam Bradford benefitted with those two big guys in front of him, I do agree with you on Okug It would take a steep price to get into the top 10 to grab him Williams from what i hear is versitile he could take Herra’s spot if you wanted to go that route

by mad_wacker39 on Jan 31, 2010 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It would be a great draft day if we could get Robinson and LeFevour

We would address our biggest need with an all around corner with speed and our QB for the future, we could still get a DT and OG in the 3rd and 4th rds.

by nmvikesfan on Feb 1, 2010 1:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I DVR the senior bowl

1 Patrick robinson
2 Brandon Graham
3 Dan LeFeour
4 Misi

by vikefansd on Feb 8, 2010 1:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

First off I like your attitude Cobra

but relax a little.
You and I do not know whether a QB should be drafted late in the first round because its not our job to analyze these matters on an everyday basis. Remember the experts were wrong on Ryan Leaf, JaMarcus Russell, Curt Warner, and Tom Brady. So no one knows who is and who isn’t a franchise QB of the future. All we can do is trust our coaching staff to make a decision in that regard.

However we do have time to wait. Brett is on for anothe ryear if he doesn’t retire and Sage is good for to more years. T-Jacks status will be clear by March 1, 2010 when we have to offer him a new contract.
All is not lost in the QB area.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 6:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Draft day experts

It’s important to understand that some (Mel Kiper, Rick Gosselin) are really trying to predict the draft order rather than suggest who should go when (Scouts, Inc., NFLdraftscout.com).

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tebow

This Tim Tebow interview video just blew my mind. Now I’m thinking we need to draft Tebow. Am I crazy?

by medicineball on Jan 26, 2010 6:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I know

I’ve been looking at this whole Tebow thing saying
“why wouldn’t we draft the best QB in college football history. He runs, throws, leads, wins, and does it in the best football conference in America.” I know he has mechanical throwing issues. I know he isn’t use to a pro-style offense. But this guy is fast and strong and we might be able to get him in the second round. Did I mention he is a winner.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 6:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

“Did I mention he is a winner.” Umm, isn’t every QB from Florida from the past decade “a winner”? How did those guys (Chris Leak, Rex Grossman, Jesse Palmer, etc) work out after being winners at Florida? Not only that , but what guy in the draft isn’t considered fast and strong? These aren’t real reasons to take a guy as a QB, definitely not in the first round. Being a leader is great, but that’s not going to help him throw the passes required and make good reads on defenses from under center. At best, Tebow is a 2-3 year project and even then he might not pan out as a QB. If college production was a major key to whether or not you will be good in the pros, then every Hawaii and Texas Tech QB would be tearing the league up and yet Colt Brennan can’t get on the field in Washington with their horrible situation and Tommy Chiang/Graham Harrell never played a down in the NFL. Your skills have to translate to the NFL game and Tebow’s don’t.

by vikingfuture8816 on Jan 26, 2010 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

You are incorrect

First off Tebow isn’t just a winner. He lead his team to something like 3 losses in a three year span. He isn’t just strong and fast. He holds the rushing touchdown record for the ACC. Who’s record did he beat? Sorry I can’t remember.
Most QBs are a three year project. I point to Aaron Rodgers and Tony Romo as prime examples.
Although you are correct that not every winning QB in college is a winner in the pros I ask you to name me many successful Pro QBs that were not winners in college.

I’m not the biggest Tebow fan around but I’m not throwing him under the buss yet. Kolb forPhilly was a high 2nd round choice. Shotgun QB and he looks like their future.

I think Tebow gets a bad rap. But don’t ever think he isn’t special

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 7:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So because he has a only 3 losses his wins mean more than others? Again, there are plenty of QBs that win a lot of games in college and lose few, but that doesn’t make them winners in the NFL. Winning in college does not correlate to winning in the NFL. The talent level disparity from team to team in college vs the pros is phenomenal. It also doesn’t hurt that of the 11 non-conference games Tebow played in (where he accumulated most of his stats) only 5 of those games came against BCS teams and the rest were against such power houses as Western Kentucky, Troy, Charleston Southern, FIU, etc. Any QB with Florida’s talent could put up those kind of numbers against that competition. More telling, just this year against teams with NFL defensive coaches (Monte Kiffin at Tennesse, and Saban at Alabama) Tebow had his worst games averaging 181 yards with 1 TD and 2 INTs.

Aaron Rodgers wasn’t a 3 year project, he just sat behind Brett Farve. Romo wasn’t considered a 1st round pick, in fact, he went undrafted. You don’t use a 1st rounder on a guy who isn’t going to play right away. Its a horrible mismanagement of funds, both money and draft picks. No one is saying he isn’t a great kid, hell, he is going to kill it in interviews, but football isn’t about interviewing, its about playing the game at the NFL level.

by vikingfuture8816 on Jan 26, 2010 8:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

No, not because he has three losses does his wins mean more than others,

Its because he has more Wins than others. There are NO(none nada zilch) quarterbacks that have more wins or fewer losses than Tebow in the three years he has been QB. Think about it. The entire college football program in America and you don’t want to give credit to its QB. Got to be kidding.
Lets not give credit to Tebow for winning non-conference games. OK- Just make sure you don’t credit any other QB coming out with those non conference stats either.
Aaron Rodgers wasn’t a three year project. No. He only sat on the bench for three years and failed in his first attempt at post season play. Just like most QBs.
Vince Young was great his first year and then needed to sit on the bench.
Tony Romo learned for three years on the bench.
Peyton Manning says it takes 1000 throws to learn to be a NFL QB.( He should know since he stunk it up his first 1000 throws.)
Matt Lienhert has the best college stats you can find but has been on the bench for three years and MAYBE can do well in the pros.

You are wrong when you suggest that a first round draft pick ( like Rodgers) should not sit on the bench for a year or two. This is normal in the NFL. Only the incredible progress of Ryan, Flacco, and Sanchez has put this normal formula into dispute. Before these guys only Marino and rothlisberger had great rookie years. Two to three years is a Normal QB progression.

Again I’m not the biggest Tebow fan ( in fact I have argued against him) but I will not take away from his great potential and natural leadership on the football field.

The Vikings liked Farve’s leadership and I think any team would like Tebow’s leadership
I will let the coaching staff decide his physical passing abilities.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 9:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There's more to the story

When a team picks later in the first round, it means that they had a winning record and are “probably” set at key positions like QB, LT, RB, MLB, or DE. If you are picking this late because you are set at a postition like QB, but are maybe looking ahead at replacing your aging QB e.g. Green Bay-Rogers, Denver-Maddox, then you can afford to use your 1st round pick on a guy that may sit the bench for 3-4 years.
However, if a team is picking in the top 10-15 it’s probably (unless they aquired the pick via trade) because they are struggling. If you draft someone that high, regardless if its a QB, you generally expect them to play immediately to help your team. Teams picking in the top 10 don’t have as much luxury as say at team picking at 28 to wait for their “prospect” to pan out. Coaches who draft guys like Matt Ryan, Flacco, Sanchez, McNabb, Manning, Stafford, Leaf, Palmer, Leinhart, Young, Couch would love to be able to let those guys sit back and learn from a wise old vet. Unfortunately thats not always the case as they succumb to pressures from management, fans, and the threat of losing their jobs. In those cases young QB’s are often prematurely thrust into the starting spot and its sink or swim from there. And by looking at my list above you’ll see that some guys swim, but many sink.
Flacco, Sanchez and Ryan were all helped dramatically by the personnel and coaches around them. Flacco and Sanchez have outstanding running games and defenses. Ryan ha(d)s a great run game. There’s always an exception to every rule (Manning), but in general the progression of a QB depends largely on whats around him.
Does sitting and learning for 2-3 years help the QB? Of course it could. Do most teams have that luxury? No.
We happen to be an anomaly as well (had to throw in the hip word of the year). We had a very successful year and are drafting late, but are faced with a question mark at QB. If we do draft a QB in round 1 ( which I seriously doubt) we probably wont be able to sit him for long.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Jan 27, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

First, in none of my post will you find anything to diminish what he accomplished in college. He has had a fabulous career at Florida and done more there in his time then most will ever dream of. That said, all of his college accomplishments don’t mean that he will succeed in the NFL. Once your name is called on draft day, the things they did on the field in college stay there, while the players move on to a much more challenging and physically dominating game.
Think of it like this: According to NCAA numbers, one in 50 (or 1.8%) of college senior football players will be drafted by the NFL. That’s from every school at every level of college football and only 1.8% will even be drafted (let alone have a long career in the NFL). That means that most players at the college level will never even get the opportunity to try out for a team, but they will be starting, even at “football factory” schools. So, you could be (for example) a great looking DE (6’6’’, 270, 4.5 speed, you name it) and only face another player who has a chance to play in the NFL once a year (or less in some cases). You would dominate everyone who doesn’t have your physical advantage and struggle against that one player. You would have great college numbers from all the lesser opponents you face and while struggling in those few games when you went against an elite O-lineman, still be considered a great college player. However, once you leave college, you no longer get all of those gimme games against those players that aren’t in the 1.8% and now every time you line up, you are going against guys similar to the ones that gave you trouble in college. Now you can no longer get by on your physical ability alone because everyone at that level has that same advantage.
Second, I never said “you have to sit/can not sit QB X because they are a first round draft choice”. Every one of them has a different situation and how they fit into the situation that the NFL team drafting them is in (NMVike has a great reply on this). We were discussing how Tebow and his situation fit into the Vikings and their situation. I would love it if the Vikings were in a situation to take a talented, 1st round caliber QB (and no I am not saying Tebow is) and sit him behind a vet that will teach him the ropes as their career fades, but that isn’t what the Vikings have going for them. He would take a lot of time and money to make the transition from spread-system shotgun QB to west coast, under center QB and after years of making that transition, there would be no guarantee he will perform as he did in college or even be a suitable back-up. There are other needs and better players that would fit much better and have a much bigger impact than Tebow.

by vikingfuture8816 on Jan 27, 2010 7:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

right

Assuming he would pan out as an NFL quarterback, it would be interesting to draft Tebow—in the third round, or later.

In 2010, we want to win now. Our first two draft picks will be asked to contribute immediately, and hopefully the whole draft class makes the team and contributes to the team on the field. We can’t draft a quarterback in the early rounds, because he could not contribute immediately and we need that draft spot for someone who can. We can only draft a quarteback in the later rounds for developmental purposes.

Tebow will never fall to us at the end of the 3rd round. He could join a motorcycle gang between now and draft weekend, and it wouldn’t matter. He will be drafted sometime in the first or second round.

But wouldn’t it be cool to have Favre and Tebow on the same team? It would be epic in some ways.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 8:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great response

I’m more understanding what your trying to say. Here is where we disagree. You think the Vikes can’t draft a QB with a #1 or #2 pick and let him sit because the Vikings can not afford to waste a draft choice on a player that isn’t contributing immediately. Its a good point.
I’m saying that IF the coaching staff thinks this guy is the “best thing since slice bread” ( BTW by definition that’s better than sex ) then we can not afford to draft him and train him. Its not like we can go out and purloin McNabb and ever get the #5 draft pick. We are rarely going to get a high draft pick. Unless Jared Allen and AP leave us in the same year we will always pick 20th -32nd.

So I say IF this is th e guy then get him. Whoever is THe GUY then get him. If no guy exists this year ( in the opinion of the scouting department) then keep doing what we have been doing. Draft great and make a great team.

Thanks for the discussion.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 10:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, I was bad. That last post was to read

I’m saying that IF the coaching staff thinks this guy is the "best thing since slice bread" ( BTW by definition that’s better than sex ) then we can not afford to<strong> NOT</strong> draft him and

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 10:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I definitely agree with you that if the coaching staff really likes one of the QBs in the draft, they will do what it takes to get them. Outside of trading for the 1st overall I would think. Can’t imagine what that would take. I just don’t see that guy being Tebow.

by vikingfuture8816 on Jan 31, 2010 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn’t be surprised, either.

I know many here believe Jackson will get his chance, but I’m not sure. In the past 12 months, they’ve buried him not once but twice on depth chart. Then they tried to trade him (to no avail). In his postseason presser, while discussing Favre (short version: we don’t know) and responding to reporters insinuating about McNabb, the conversation turned to finding a long-term quarterback. Chilly’s response was that that would be the ideal situation. He then said he hadn’t had a chance yet to look at the class of QBs this draft, but that he intended to start soon. Tarvaris Jackson’s name was absent throughout all this.

Anyway, I think they’ll take a QB at some point this draft, if only for depth (and while this draft isn’t that great at QB, there are a ton of athletic QBs, which Chilly likes/prefers). But I also think it’s not out of bounds to think one or both of the big two (Clausen and Bradford) could slide to the point where the Vikings can move up and get their guy if they like him enough. Both have issues (Bradford’s shoulder injury; and Clausen just doesn’t seem to have won over a ton of scouts despite his outstanding production).

We’re also on the eve of the rookie cap, so teams might consider taking better-rated players (and there are a few) and roll the dice on a QB in the future and/or later on this draft. I also think—again due to this likely being the final year of the ridiculous rookie contracts—that there might be a buyers market for teams wanting to move up (e.g., you can throw the trade value chart away, if you couldn’t have already).

by jianfu on Feb 2, 2010 1:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see any QBs worth trading up for in the 1st rd.

Not from #30 we would have to give up too much to move down that far. Clausen and Bradford will be gone early, too many teams at the top of the draft have QB issues and i don’t see either one of them falling passed the top 15.

by nmvikesfan on Feb 3, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That’s what the mocks suggest, but I’m not convinced that’ll be the case, necessarily. Almost every team with a QB need also has an equal or even more pressing need on the offensive line, and specifically the glamorous LT: Washington, Seattle, Buffalo.. The Rams are stuck with #1 pick and might just go for the top rated player, and neither Clausen nor Bradford are considered the top player.

There’s other things, too. Like this is the final year of the excessive contracts for top 10 rookie picks. How many teams are going to feel comfortable springing their last ridiculous rookie contract on Bradford who has a shoulder injury, and won’t even be able to throw yet at the combine. Bradford has basically one chance to throw, at this pro day. What if he’s not sharp? Or what if he’s not even ready for that one?

And Clausen doesn’t seem to be thought of as highly by some insider types as his numbers would suggest. Just a hunch I’ve formulated by reading things by guys like Rob Rang, Mike Mayock, and Scouts, Inc. This isn’t all that rare, as we’ve seen several very productive college QBs slide due to something being slightly “off” or concerning. That doesn’t necessarily dictate the player’s fate, as sometimes these guys turn into Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, and sometimes they turn into Brian Brohm or Brady Quinn. But it happens.

I have no idea what will happen. Nobody does. Maybe Clausen goes #1 overall and maybe Bradford goes #4 or something. But I don’t think it’s a slam dunk by any means.

by jianfu on Feb 3, 2010 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I didn't clarify my comment

We don’t have enough to move up that far in the draft without giving up the house. QB is not our biggest need right now but it is a need for our future. We ahve too many needs to be trading any of our picks in the first place, if we could be players in FA then yes but that isn’t the case this year unless something happens with the CBA.

by nmvikesfan on Feb 3, 2010 5:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm pretty sure sex came before sliced bread

by archie2227 on Jan 29, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you dont credit other college QBs either

because the wins dont matter, its if the skills translate

Lurking since 2006

by boyonthedock on Jan 28, 2010 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

YOu can’t name successful pro QBs that weren’t winners in college because they weren’t drafted…that isn’t a good argument at all. You can name a TON of winners that didn’t become good pros though!

by TrevorR on Jan 28, 2010 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm against drafting Tebow

and you put into words exactly what I’ve thought.

If you can't laugh at yourself... Who can you laugh at?
The Packers, that’s who.
-- The almighty Manimal

by TheViking83 on Jan 27, 2010 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

From walterfootball.com

“I find it amazing that people love to hate on Tim Tebow and are all about supporting QB Dog Killer. Crazy world we live in. Tebow is a strong-armed, accurate passer (67.8 completion, 9.2 YPA) with a ton of upside. His ability to play in a pro offense, his footwork and slow release are all issues, but I think it’s absolutely naive to dismiss Tebow as a promising quarterback when Vince Wonderlic Young transitioned into a pretty solid NFL quarterback when he played in a similar scheme.

What Tebow gives up in mechanics, he makes up for in work ethic. He won’t be able to step in and play really well right away, but he’s a very promising pro quarterback who will undoubtedly sell tickets and draw fan interest."

I’m torn on it. I hated Tebow all the time I’ve known him as a college player… but then again I hated Brett Favre for a good portion of my life so I can get over this fact. The idea of him and Percy Harvin on a field together again is just sick. On top of that we have one of the greatest gifts a rookie quarterback can ask for, a great tight end who catches just about everything. Anyone else noticed Shank have quietly the single best performance of the game? He caught all four balls thrown his way in the second half, including the drive where he caught passes of 26, 20 (on 2nd and 20) and 21 yards.

Best-case scenario: Brett Favre decides to give it one more shot, and announces this sometime before the NFL draft. If Tebow is available, I say we secure him and get him in the first round. We have a young nucleus on offense with our wideouts, our runningback, along with our tackles and center. We should get our franchise quarterback in a division chock full of them.

by why am i in omaha on Jan 26, 2010 7:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Scouting Report on Tim Tebow

Pros- Hard work ethic, leadership qualities, can run, very athletic

Cons- Weak arm, poor accuracy, slow release, played in a spread option offense, poor foot work

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 27, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

addtional cons mentioned here

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Tim-Tebow-s-first-Senior-Bowl-practice-was-not-v?urn=nfl,215766

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Jan 27, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like Tebow as a person and I like him as a electric college QB I just really don’t think he’s going to translate in to a good one in the pros…the very issues mentioned by Jabooty come to mind.

by TrevorR on Jan 28, 2010 8:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, his personality and leadership abilities are exceptional. But you have to have the skills to go along with that, and I don’t know if he does.

by packallday555 on Jan 28, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If all that's true

then what makes you think that Childress would be interested? From his perspective, he could only gain criticism for not coaching the best college QB into a fine NFL starter. And, if he did, nobody would give him any credit. That’s my #1 gripe with him: he is always thinking about his reputation first and the talent level of the team second. There is more in it for him to give TJ more time (although that time will be limited if he does not produce in year 6) or acquire McNabb, the only other QB on Earth who can be trusted to execute Childress’s offense and even audible sometimes.

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

After this, you have the floor

KC Viking, I respect your views, and your fanatical support for the Vikings. We seem to disagree a lot, but that is life. After this, I’ll let you have the floor.

I don’t see Childress doing anything based on protecting his reputation. He traded the franchise, Daunte Culpepper. Later in 2006, he drafted Jackson and Cook higher than pundits had them rated. He drafted Ray Edwards, a very raw prospect. He kept Troy Williamson around for two years despite fans clamoring for him to be released. Drafting Adrian was a risk because of his injury. Trading for Jared was a risk because of his past. Drafting Tyrell Johnson was risky despite his high ranking because he came from a small school. Remember when he drafted Sidney Rice over the vaunted Dwayne Jarrett? Vikings fans were upset. Even drafting Percy Harvin was controversial at the time. Bringing in Brett Favre—nobody knew for sure that the fan base would accept him and come around to him.

Pretty much all have worked out well. Tyrell Johnson was starting to play better, and he will have a chance to play well next year. We will see about him.

Childress has not been a perfect coach, but he has learned from his mistakes. He improves. He gives the Vikings a good opportunity to win. I support him.

by medicineball on Feb 3, 2010 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by nmvikesfan on Feb 3, 2010 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Warning: Facts ahead

(First of all, our respective opinions are information as far as I’m concerned. There is never anything personal, and it’s all good.)

Until this year, Culpepper’s ratings were higher with worse teams than Chilly’s starting QBs. All because Chilly wanted to babysit Daunte’s rehab, too. I have never heard of a worse reason to trade a franchise QB for a 3rd string center, have you?

Yes, he (and the scouting dept and Fran Foley) drafted TJ and Cook ahead of the pundits’ opinions…and Cook is now a backup after too many penalties and boneheaded plays made him too much of a liability as a starter at RT (hey, ever think of using him at center where he could get away with more movement and play his natural position? If you’re going to waste a roster spot on him at all, I mean?) That trade and draft pick are very poor examples of making smart moves which score about a negative half point for Childress.

Tarvaris Jackson has only looked good in a backup role. Childress said that he was the next McNabb. It’s his fault for saying such a stupid thing and I guess it’s partly his fault that TJ has taken 4+ years to develop (giving him the benefit of the doubt here) in 3+ years less than McNabb. It’s either that or admit that Childress is no QB guru, which he had claimed to be.

Ray Edwards has done ok for a 5th rounder who was benched in college. He’s definitely had a handful of great games in 3-4 years. He’s also drawn quite a few penalties. Not enough to bench him just yet, but I doubt that he’s cemented himself into the Vikings’ future as a starter for the next however many years. After CB and S, LE is one position which could be improved upon in this draft or in future drafts. He’s about a half point for Childress, although many FA DEs could have performed so close to average with a handful of great games in 3-4 years.

Drafting AP was safer in the sense that it would allow the team to remain run-heavy, a “safer” option than becoming more balanced (especially considering the QBs). Maybe Darrelle Revis or someone else would have allowed CT to hold onto the ball in the NFCCG and compete in the SB. He breaks even on this one for drafting a RB with so many other pressing needs while already having a run-heavy team and several similarly talented players on the board at other positions.

Drafting JA was safer as a known quantity compared to so many high-risk/high-reward talents with similar concerns. Even if he stays sober, JA may not be productive as long as a rookie could have been. Also, remember that JA was brought here to do what Ray Edwards couldn’t do, so you can’t say that both moves were great.

Tyrell Johnson has been a massive disappointment so far. Meanwhile, look at how DeSean Jackson has performed, just as 1 example. Safeties (and most defensive players in general) are not QBs. They should not have 3-year learning curves. Even if he were to eventually become average, he would still be a disappointment for taking so long to get there and not becoming above average or better in the long term. It would also mean that the team had possibly passed on better safeties in that 2-5 year window who would have been or become above average or better much earlier and for more time.

There were other prospects besides Dwayne Jarrett, and most Vikings fans were pleased to add a new WR to the mix. Rice was a huge disappointment for his first 3 years in the league, and it will be interesting to see how well he performs without Favre. The degree of separation he got from defenders was barely enough for Favre to sling it in there let alone a lesser talent.

Regarding Harvin: Ha! No NFL coach has visited a prospect 3 days before the draft (publicly, no less) to smell his car while searching for the slightest whiff of a reason to not draft him. I credit the rest of the front office for apparently forcing Childress to accept a 1st round receiver. Childress would not have made that visit had he wanted Harvin all along because a) he’s a strategist who doesn’t believe in tipping his hand; b) why go there if he’s already settled on Harvin when there is a chance of finding some bad news? or c) to learn to deal with Harvin since it wasn’t his idea. The only reason to make that visit would be because the front office had told him that they were choosing Harvin if he was available and to find a way to deal with it.

I’ll say something good about Childress: the playcalling in the first quarter of the NFCCG was outstanding. I loved it so much that I was jumping up and down excited about it (and that is saying a lot).

I do believe that Childress has learned from some of his mistakes, but not from all of them. It also irritating to read from Childress apologists how great every little move has been, even if some or most of the moves have been mostly counterproductive (i.e., Ryan Cook) or just average after failing at the originally expected role (Ray Edwards) or not entirely his decision (drafting and scouting in general), especially when said Chilly lovers can’t hold him accountable for losing (2006) or not winning (2007) or 1 and done in the playoffs (2008) with some of the highest payrolls in the league or losing in the NFCCG with SB talent just because of indoor fumbles and a 12 man penalty after a freaking timeout! Those sorts of things would never happen (and have never happened, historically) with truly great coaching. I also wanted to see some double-teaming of Julius Peppers sometime in the game, for example, but he either continued to stubbornly believe in not doing so or lacked the stones to overrule Frazier if that was his bad move.

by KC Viking on Feb 4, 2010 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Nice post.

by packallday555 on Feb 4, 2010 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks.

by KC Viking on Feb 6, 2010 10:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also (and more on topic), 3 other examples of reputation over talent

After Tarvaris Jackson, the best example of Childress choosing to go for reputation points rather than overall talent involved the trade of Hank Baskett for Billy McMullen.

Drafting Ray Edwards over Mark Anderson was another reach for the sake of his reputation. Anderson was touted as being the more versatile and NFL-ready talent while Edwards had character and work ethic concerns and was considered a boom or bust type after his college coach had benched him. After 4 years, each has 21.5 sacks, but Mark Anderson got his by starting about half as many games.

There was more in it for Childress’s reputation in the Chester Taylor vs. Mewelde Moore (and Bobby Wade vs. MM in terms of punt returns…guess who had better return averages, including some of the best in team history? MM), too.

Time for me to say something nice about Brad Childress: the trade for Artis Hicks was at least a good one, if not a great one. Hicks isn’t a starter anymore, but he’s been versatile and usually played at or slightly better than replacement level for as many years as most 6th round picks are on a roster.

Finally, I don’t understand why you champion Brad Johnson and Childress at the same time. Childress’s system couldn’t tap Johnson’s talents, and Johnson has publicly stated that he did not like playing for Childress at all.

by KC Viking on Feb 4, 2010 11:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

a reply

It’s amazing how differently we see things, but I really appreciate how you back things up with arguments.

Ryan Cook was not a great draft pick, but my point in raising it was to show that Childress often disregards a hit to his short-term reputation if he believes a move can help the team. While Cook was not playing great earlier, he was a backup in 2009. We’ll see what happens in free agency and training camp. My guess is that Cook has learned a lot, improved a lot, and will secure a position on the roster as a backup. His versatility is a strength. He can play at least three positions on the line, and might be able to play LT or LG if called on.

Drafting is an art, not a science. I was just checking the defensive ends and guards in this year’s Pro Bowl . A lot of those guys were not #1 picks. Take Jared Allen. I went back and in the 2004 draft, he was rated as the 28th best defensive end in the draft. He made the NFL Combine, but none of his measurables were significantly better than anyone else. So what makes one player a Pro Bowler and another player just a guy? I am not a coach, but I believe the difference starts at the mini-camps and training camp of the rookie season and just continues from there. Who has a burning desire combined with coachability combined with a huge work ethic, tremendous perseverance, and a willingness to put up with discomfort and pain for long stretches no matter what? If Jared Allen quits working hard, he will not be a Pro Bowl quality player next year. If he keeps working hard, he could stay the same, or maybe improve.

In the draft, we should look at it in tiers. Ideally, you draft a future Hall of Famer in each pick. Of course, every player in the Hall of Fame got there not just because of natural ability, but also because of hard work and the qualities mentioned above. If you can’t draft a Hall of Famer, you hope for a Pro Bowler. If you can’t get a Pro Bowler, you hope for a starter. If you can’t get a starter, you hope for a backup. Otherwise, they won’t make the team or contribute anything to the end product. But even if the draft pick is only a backup, at least he is contributing something to the team. As we see every season, backups are important players, even though you prefer your draft pick to be a starter.

Take Chad Greenway. He has not made the Pro Bowl, but he is a starter. He contributes to the team. As a #1 pick, sure, we would like him to make the Pro Bowl. I hope one day he improves enough, plays well enough, and earns a spot there. I believe he can. Even if he never does, though, he is a contributor by being a starter and playing well.

Take Ray Edwards. He has become a hard worker. He stuffs the run. Occasionally he adds a sack. No defensive end rookie made the Pro Bowl this year. The position in the pros takes a lot to get used to. If we drafted a defensive end in 2010, even in the first round, he might be ready to start by 2012 or 2013. On the other hand, we can keep Ray Edwards and have a solid starter for years to come. As we saw in the Cowboys game, he can play very well. Imagine if he keeps improving and becomes consistent. And he is only 24 years old.

On Hank Baskett, yes, that was a bad trade. It was also relatively inconsequential. Even if Baskett makes the game-winning catch for the Colts on Sunday in the big game, he is just another David Tyree. He would be remembered for the catch, but Childress did not let the next Jerry Rice go when he traded him. The Vikings have an ongoing good relationship with the Eagles, and that served us well in the Artis Hicks trade.

Should we have kept Mewelde Moore and dropped Chester Taylor? Maybe. Moore has punt return ability, but Taylor is the better running back. Taylor is a starter-quality running back, Moore is not.

On drafting Peterson over Revis—you would really have switched that up? Our coverage scheme is mostly Cover-2. Revis would be nice to have, but he would be in zone coverage most of the time. And you would let Peterson go? Yeah, he made some fumbles, but so did Harvin and Berrian. Adrian Peterson. I would never trade him, and I’m glad we drafted him.

On Brad Johnson, I wish the Vikings had not traded him in ‘99. As for Johnson’s second time with the Vikings, that was 2006. It’s too bad that didn’t work out, but sometimes personalities conflict.

Remember when people were cracking jokes about the KAO? They were still laughing about it until Favre came to the Vikings. Now we know what this offense can do.

On overall talent level, the media have described the Vikings as talent-heavy. In fact, a lot of those talented players, from Adrian Peterson to Tyrell Johnson are still pretty young and have not become fully mature NFL players. Furthermore, the team could use more depth of talent particularly at linebacker and defensive back. There are a few other places where improvement could be made, including the offensive line and special teams.

To conclude, Childress is a prudent, aggressive risk-taker. He is a good coach who has improved. The team has become better under his watch, even before considering the improved team character. This Vikings team now has major playoff experience and that will help them next year.

6-10, 8-8, 10-6, 12-4.

by medicineball on Feb 5, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll tell you this he sure can't coach hair.

by Grime on Feb 5, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ryan Cook was not a great draft pick,

I’m glad we can agree on that much. As for his versatility, well, that was one of the things that he was supposed to bring to the table as a raw talent. Cook was not considered worthy of the battle for the starting C job in ‘09 and failed to beat another 2nd round pick, Loadholt, who was drafted a little later than Cook had been. Cook did nothing during the season to make anyone think that he could still become a starter or even a 2nd string at 3 positions. You may feel that way since it’s a free country, of course, but there are no real facts or apparent trends to support those feelings now. It’s also important to note that Cook has almost spent the same amount of time as the average NFL career lasts already. The selection of Loadholt is among the few Childress era draft picks which was primarily about talent rather than reputation (as molding Cook into a productive starter would have been), but I’m not jumping up and down about it since the need to select Loadholt was caused by drafting Cook for the wrong reasons.

Drafting is an art, not a science.

It is neither. Drafting is a game which requires proper planning and execution. During his first draft with the team, Childress had apparently planned to select raw talents who fit his system ahead of where conventional wisdom advised so that he could nurture his reputation and job security. Of course, that draft was also officially run by Fran Foley, who was summarily fired. There is no doubt that Childress wanted Ryan Cook and Tarvaris Jackson based on quotes that circulated at the time (“he’s the next McNabb”), though. Rick Gosselin was the only pundit who ranked Cook in his top 100, and noted that his top 100 was not based on his perception of the players’ rankings and values, but of coaches’ perceptions and valuations of players. The best draft strategy, usually, is to select the best player available, regardless of position, like when Dennis Green selected Randy Moss 21st overall. To put it another way, selecting raw talents for one’s current system leaves more talented players who warrant modifying the current system into something even better for the opponents to take.

In fact, the 2 2nd round selections could have been used differently in several combinations superior to Griffin/Cook and possibly even Griffin/Cook/Jackson. 4 other noteable OTs were available when Griffin was selected (Marcus McNeil, Andrew Whitworth, Jeremy Trueblood and Eric Winston). Maurice Jones-Drew (a sensible pick if one isn’t going to utilize MM much at all) and CB Richard Marshall (3 INTs in his first half-season and 3 more in his second season with only 6 starts…it took Cedric Griffin 3 years to accumulate his first 3 INTs in more starts!) and several others were also available. Your standard for evaluating draftees (HoF, PB, starter, versatile backup…and I agree with that) is not friendly to Cook, either.

Greenway was a fine pick, and he should have been chosen for the ‘08 PB. There were arguably better players with less injury risk (Santonio Holmes), but I can’t gripe about that pick at all because Greenway has been a helpful starter, and, as you say, the Vikings would have hidden behind Cover-2 as a reason to avoid drafting a supremely talented player.

No rookie DE made it to the Pro Bowl recently, but Osi Umenora and Trent Cole were PBers by their 3rd years. Jason Taylor and JA played their first PBs in year 4, and JA had more sacks as a rookie (9) than Ray’s career high (8.5 last year, his 4th). Taylor had 9 sacks in his 2nd year. So far, Ray Edwards is not like any of the stud DEs in recent Pro Bowls. I don’t care that much about whether he makes a PB so much as seeing fewer penalties and making more successful plays in general.

The Baskett trade was especially bad because it showed that not only does Childress have trouble evaluating unknowns, but he also tends to elevate players he likes to standards their talent cannot reach. Really, of all coaches on this planet Earth, Brad Childress should have known exactly how terrible Billy McMullen was, although I tend to think that that trade was more about trading a personality he didn’t like for a good, loyal guy in the locker room.

Taylor is a starter-quality running back, Moore is not.

That was obviously Childress’s assessment. Before Childress, MM had started 3 games (all wins) and exceeded 4.0 ypc in all 3 on an 8-8 team in 2004 and then 8 games on a 9-7 squad in 2005 (the team was 5-3), exceeding 4.0 ypc in 6 of those 8 games. When Childress arrived in 2006, CT started 15 games for a 6-10 squad. CT ran for 4+ ypc in only 5 of his 15 starts, including 5 starts in which he averaged less than 3 ypc. MM is also one of the best PRs in the history of the franchise, and it’s worth noting that MM’s career ypc with the Vikings was 4.9…exactly the same as AP’s to date! Post-Childress, Mewelde Moore exceeded 4.0 ypc in 4 of 6 games in which he had 14-30 touches. The Steelers are 4-2 in those games. It’s also worth noting that the Steelers’ OL was not as good as the Vikings’ OLs from 2004-2008 (working in MM’s favor).

Childress would rather have “His Guy” being helpful in 5/15 games rather than 13/17 games, and that is the running theme here. Cook, McMullen, Ray Edwards, Chester Taylor, Bobby Wade, Tarvaris Jackson, Cedric Griffin…these are raw talents at best (with the exceptions of Taylor and Wade, who aren’t exactly raw, but just not effective enough to start) who owe Childress debts of gratitude for opportunities that no other coach in the league would give them. Childress wanted lesser talents around him who would be loyal to him and so that the media would praise him for doing so much with so little. Even Greenway was a possible 2nd rounder due to injury baggage who owes his career with the NFL franchise closest to his home to Childress.

On Revis vs. Peterson, it would have been the difference in the NFCCG with Peterson being at fault for 3 lost fumbles and the Vikings’ pass D decimated by injuries. The Cover-2 scheme has been an excuse for coordinator laziness by not bringing in a more talented CB who could do so much more and allow the DC to change up the scheme a bit and man and double cover once in a while. Revis would have been helpful in 2008’s playoff campaign, too. I like AP well enough, but this team needed a CB like Revis since Childress arrived. Had the team drafted Richard Marshall instead of Cedric Griffin and/or Ryan Cook or another quality CB elsewhere in the 2006 draft, then this would not be a point of discussion.

Brad Johnson‘s 2nd stint actually began pretty well with TIce the year before. I know you’re fond of QB W-L. Under Tice, Johnson went 7-2 in 9 starts. Under Childress (and that was the year that Childress called the plays), 6-8 in 14 starts. His other numbers were much better with Tice coaching than Childress, too. Also, Johnson only started 6 more seasons after the trade, and so did Daunte. The Vikings got Daunte’s prime and Johnson’s last year as a starter.

WIthout Favre, the KAO is a joke. He transformed the KAO into the BFAO (Brett Favre Audible Offense), and that actually worked. When the QB talent level drops off to Sagevaris Jacksonfels or whomever comes along, then we wil see the same old joke of a KAO.

The team was indeed talent-heavy, as many of Childress’s teams have been (at least half of them ranked in the top 3 by payroll). The 2009 Vikings were more talented than Dan Reeves’ Super Bowl teams, for example. It was touted as a QB away from the SB, and even with a HoF QB having a greater year than expected, Childress just couldn’t coach the team well enough to avoid 12 men after a timeout…or to hold onto the ball during an indoor match. Childress is the coach who did less with the best.

You are the only person on this Earth who has gone on record and called Brad Childress any sort of risk-taker.

by KC Viking on Feb 7, 2010 12:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK

Let’s move on to something more current, since we have both made our cases about the past.

On my draft wishlist, I’ve got players like Taylor Mays, Mike Iupati, and Sean Weatherspoon all ahead of the better cornerbacks in the draft. Regardless of how we feel about Joe Haden, he will be off the board by the time the Vikings make the 30th overall pick. With all of the other highly-touted cornerbacks in the draft, including Kyle Wilson, Donovan Warren, Patrick Robinson, and many others, who do you like?

Should the Vikings take a cornerback in round 1? Should the Vikings take somebody like a Taylor Mays, Mike Iupati, or Sean Weatherspoon in round 1, and take the best available cornerback in round 2? I am leaning toward the latter draft strategy, but I am not sure about that. If you have any opinions about any of this, please share. Thanks.

by medicineball on Feb 7, 2010 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t follow college ball (though I’d like to start one of these years) and I haven’t read enough on this year’s class to name names. I’ll start reading up on them this week, and I’m sure we’ll have plenty of chances to discuss individual prospects between now and the draft.

I do believe that Winfield’s age and Cedric Griffin being who he is could justify a 1st round CB if a really good one is still on the board. CB is definitely on my wish list ahead of safety (Winfield or Griffin could move to SS if the coaching staff has had it with Tyrell Johnson, which hasn’t happened yet but it could still happen).

I’d like to see a RB taken somewhere in rounds 2-4, whether a 3rd down back to replace Taylor or a strong backup or a mixture of both.

RG and QB (and a replacement for Leber) are definitely on my wish list, too, which leaves plenty of leeway in addressing need and overall talent.

by KC Viking on Feb 7, 2010 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If we didnt have Peterson, we probably dont make it to NFCCG

And he fumbled 3 times but lost 1.

Stats for CT. In 07 when he played frequently he rushed for 844 yards, 7 TDs and had a 5.4 ypc average.
Everyone’s stats took a hit this year because the Oline wasnt producing like it had the previous 2 years.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 8, 2010 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A lost fumble that goes nowhere (sometimes for negative yardage) is still really bad since running plays are meant to be safe and steady ways to gain yardage.

CT’s 07 numbers are better because he wasn’t starting. It is easier to have a higher ypc while backing up than starting with fresher legs, fewer hits, sometimes facing a prevent while running down the clock, etc..

Favre’s stats didn’t take a hit this year, but he took quite a few. The OL was still built to run the ball, primarily. The big question mark around Loadholt wasn’t his ability to maul on running plays so much as his ability to provide pass protection.

Finally, I want to address the notion that AP is the reason the team got to the NFCCG. No, he wasn’t. Running Back by Committees have won Super Bowls before, just ask Favre. Did AP save the SF game in the last second? No, it was Favre. There were no examples of AP taking over a (meaningful) game in 2009. A different RB who didn’t try to impersonate Barry Sanders so often and fumbled less often could have helped this team a lot more, not only in the NFCCG but also

by KC Viking on Feb 9, 2010 6:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Okay...

A lost fumble that goes nowhere (sometimes for negative yardage) is still really bad since running plays are meant to be safe and steady ways to gain yardage

I agree, but…From a coaching standpoint a muffed handoff is the Qb’s fault. A muffed snap is the center’s fault. I understand that they all are technically scored as a fumble, but the lost fumble in the NFCCG is Favre’s fault as well.

CT’s 07 numbers are better because he wasn’t starting. It is easier to have a higher ypc while backing up than starting with fresher legs, fewer hits, sometimes facing a prevent while running down the clock, etc..

In 07 Chester essentially started multiple games. In 08 and 09 zero. So youre argument that his numbers in 07 were better because he was fresh due to no starting is invalid. In fact, his carries have significantly gone down since 07 (157 in ’07, 101 in ’08 and 94 in ’09).

Favre’s stats didn’t take a hit this year, but he took quite a few.

I was only referring to the rushing stats in 09 that have diminished. But thank you for proving my point. While the sacks surrendered went down in 09 (34 compared to 38 and 43 in 2007 and 2008 respectively) I believe you can attribute that to Favre’s pocket awareness and quick release because he still took way too many hits. TJack or Sage would have probably surrendered way more sacks and probably got hurt in 09. The 34 sacks he suffered are more than twice as many that he took in 07 with the pack (15).

Finally, I want to address the notion that AP is the reason the team got to the NFCCG. No, he wasn’t. Running Back by Committees have won Super Bowls before, just ask Favre.

I never once said that AP was the only reason the team got to the NFCCG. In fact I have been accused of being a Favre lover for saying that #4 was the missing piece to the puzzle this year. But it didn’t hurt that Favre had the league’s leading scorer (not counting kickers) helping him take this team to the NFCCG. With that being said, I do believe that if you take either of those two away, AP or Favre, this team doesnt do nearly as well as it did in 09.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 10, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't worry I'm a favre lover too

I have a poster of him taped above my bed even…

It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...

by Grime on Feb 11, 2010 8:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently you and I are not alone...

According the AP, some 122,000 fans have raised money to finance a billboard near Favre’s home in Hattiesburg that reads, “Hey, No. 4 do Minnesota fans love you and what you back? You Brettcha!”

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 11, 2010 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

thats "want you back next year"

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 11, 2010 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The muffed handoff in the NFCCG was scrutinized by the announcers, and the noted that AP had not given Favre any sort of “bread box” on that play.

In 2007, CT did in fact start 8 games. I don’t know which games were starts from p-f-r.com, but I’m assuming that anything more than a start in name only would have had 11+ touches. In 9 games with 11+ touches in 2007, he failed to reach 4.0 ypc 3x, essentially succeeding 2x as often as he had as a starter in 2006. 7-8 more games like that in 2007 would have worn him down and lower his ypc by quite a bit. He had 5.58 ypc in 25 attempts in his non-starts in 2007 which proves my point further. That is what is so impressive about MM’s stats, which were produced while starting.

The hits Favre took surely would have gone up with another Ryan Cook year instead of Phil Loadholt. The 2009 OL was built to run even more so than the 2007 and 2008 versions. At least I hope so, because if it was built for pass pro, then the coaches have another strike against them.

Your exact words were If we didnt have Peterson, we probably dont make it to NFCCG. Lots of RBs could have played for the NFCCG losing Vikings in 2009. A RBBC of CT and MM may have done the job nicely as long as Favre was on the team. I don’t believe that many other QBs could have been plugged in and finished with the same result or better.

by KC Viking on Feb 12, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

??????????

The muffed handoff in the NFCCG was scrutinized by the announcers, and the noted that AP had not given Favre any sort of "bread box" on that play.

It is the job of the QB to put the ball in the RB’s belly, period. The RB has his eyes up and focused on 6 inches of daylight.

but I’m assuming that anything more than a start in name only would have had 11+ touches.

That’s your problem. You assume too much. CT had more than twice as many yards in 07 as he did in 08 or 09. He averaged 3x as many yards per game in 07 than he did in 08 or 09. Twice as many TD’s. Why? He played more. He had 40% of the teams rushing attempts in 07. Compare that to 22 % of the attempts in 08 and 23% in 09. The whole point of my argument is not only did his attempts drop, so did his production. Only 1 rushing TD in ’09. 3.6 yards per carry in ’09. Fresher CT does not equal more productive CT. Better line play = more produciton.

The hits Favre took surely would have gone up with another Ryan Cook year instead of Phil Loadholt. The 2009 OL was built to run even more so than the 2007 and 2008 versions.

Really? With essentially 2 rookies on the line in ’09? The numbers dont lie. The line play was diminished in ’09. A more stout running attack, like the one we had in ’07 and ’08, would have lead to less hits on Favre because we could have run more. The overall rushing attempts went down from 519 in ’08 to 467 in ’09. Thats the equivalent of 2 more games of rushing attempts. The number of 1st downs via the run dropped from 150 in ’08 to 99 in ’09

Lots of RBs could have played for the NFCCG losing Vikings in 2009.

But how many could have helped us reach that game? The reality is, without AP, we sputter even worse coming out of the gate. Rememeber the beginning of the season? Favre was passing for under 160 yards. AP bought him some time to get back into game shape and build a repore with his receivers. Without AP, the begininng of the season could have been a disaster.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 12, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Favre put it in AP’s belly, but AP’s hands were out of position. Officially, it’s Favre’s fumble, but that is really unfair since AP made the mistake.

Taylor had fewer yards and TDs in the last 3 years because of fewer opportunities, oh, and this thing called aging, too. But if you compare apples to apples (starting ypc vs. non-starting ypc in 2007, for example). After 2007, we run into small sample size (how to compare starts to non-starts in 2 years with only 1 start?) problems. TDs are a very poor means of measuring a RB’s performance. I prefer DYAR (33rd in 2006, 20th in 2007) or DVOA (33rd in 2006, 20th in 2007). Since his last 2 years with 8+ starts were in 2006 and 2007, there is not much meaningful to discuss regarding Chester Taylor. A case could be made that AP’s declining ypc may have been prevented by limiting his carries more (more speculative than my prior analysis of CT’s 2007, though).

In terms of pass pro, the line was definitely diminished. But Loadholt was a pure mauler in the running game and Sullivan is a run-blocking center. Had the team kept Matt Birk and added Loadholt, things could have been so much better…another example of Childress favoring “his guy” over a Pro Bowler for the sake of his reputation over the best interests of the team (and it bombed). You are indicting the coaching and personnel more than I ever have if you are suggesting that 2 rookies were added (1 unnecessarily) who could neither pass block well enough nor run block well enough for the best RB in the game.

Favre passed for so few yards because the Vikings were running out the clock early on (CLE, DET, STL etc.). The replacement RB would need to be better than DJ Dozier, but not a lot better than that. Larry Johnson was available for next to nothing. Nobody wanted Cedric Benson at the end of 2008, but he could have filled in for the 2009 Vikings. Eric Pegram is enough to win a SB sometimes.

by KC Viking on Feb 12, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Any room for this discussion?

He thinks of the reputation of the franchise first because his employer hired him specifically to do so?

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 8, 2010 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not the reputation of the franchise

but his own resume. There are several examples of choosing a less talented player for the sake of building his coaching reputation (and failing). That’s my point, anyway.

by KC Viking on Feb 12, 2010 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That makes no sense. He wants to build his resume with less talent?

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 12, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

He believes that he can turn less into more with his madd noodle skillz. He believes that he will potentially gain more prestige by starting the 6th round C that he drafted rather than someone else’s hidden gem who had been to a few PBs. He thought he was being like Billy Beane by letting the higher priced C go and starting “his guy” instead (and Beane has never won a championship…in fact, the A’s have been woeful on offense despite his preaching about a “system” since Moneyball was published…sounds all too familiar).

Similar coach: Mike Martz, known for ditching Warner for Bulger and Marshall Faulk for Steven Jackson. The RB move probably had to be made, but “his guy” (Bulger) had the same talent Warner had led to a SB and never got there. He went on to add to Detroit’s woes after that.

It would even be OK if it worked. See also: Cedric Benson in CIN, Warner in STL (backup QBs with NFL experience were heavily favored then) and ARI (every other team had thought that he was washed up), the Saints taking a risk with Brees’s repaired shoulder, just to list 3 examples.

by KC Viking on Feb 12, 2010 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's quite a reach at best.

The fact that Childress went out and lobbied for Favre to come out of retirement over “his guy” TJack disputes your claim.
Other examples: Drafting AP when he had CT; spending big on Berrian when he had drafted Rice. Drafting Harvin when he had spent big on Berrian and drafted Rice. Signing Shank and subsequently turning him into a probowl caliber TE. etc.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 16, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How could you forget the Jared Allen trade?

Or Hutch deal?

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 16, 2010 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You cant lump all this scenario's together either

Because they all have their own unique circumstances. Childress kept Phat Pat and Winfield around despite the fact that they were critical of him when he arrived. In fact he rewarded each of them with nice contract extensions.
He wanted to keep Birk, but Birk wanted more money and even admitted that he wanted a change of scenary. Sometimes that’s what these guys need. Benson didn’t produce in Chitown. Perhaps its was the system. He’s a talented back. He was drafted in the top 5. Chicago hasn’t had the success that say Denver or Atlanta have had with plugging in backs.

Warner struggled with NYG and found a niche out in the desert. That Rams team was built for that 2 year run no matter who was behind center. They had aging players up and down the roster. Defensive coordinators figured out the scheme and teams started placing an emphasis on pass rushers and shut down corners to contend with that offense.

I just dont see any of this as evidence to support your theory that Childress wants to say he did more with less. In fact, the evidence to me points to the contrary.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 16, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

BTW- I watched the interview. Tebows great but I hate mike Mayock

Does he have a clue how to ask a question without making a statement of the answer.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 7:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah! That's true

But Mayock gives the Vikings credit sometimes. And there’s Corey Chavous in there, too!

by medicineball on Jan 26, 2010 7:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well as long as he loves the Vikes. Lets keep an eye on Tebow.

I have a long way to go to get on his bandwagon. But the wagon is moving.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The kids got the right persective.

by iowaron on Jan 29, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Minnesota Gophers

This year, I noticed that there is not a single Vikings player from the state of Minnesota. In a time when the Vikings could use better community relations, it would be helpful to give some Gophers tryouts in training camp.

Eric Decker will probably be drafted, but not by the Vikings. The Vikings are stocked at wide receiver.

Before training camp, the Vikings could have a special workout for these players. There could be media there, etc. This would be good PR if nothing else. These players probably won’t be drafted, but they have real talent.

Simoni Lawrence, OLB
Nate Triplett, OLB
Nick Tow-Arnett

Who knows? Maybe somebody will make the team.

by medicineball on Jan 26, 2010 10:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I like everyone else like Decker.

I’m sure the Vikes will look at him. Your idea of a Gofer day is great. I wouldn’t be opposed to making it a midwest day. Iowa ( my state), Dakotas, and Nebraska. Not many people in those states but a whole lot of football fans without a team.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 26, 2010 10:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by medicineball on Jan 26, 2010 10:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What is Decker’s draft projection? He’s a good WR.

The closest player to being a Minnesotan is Ben Leber, and he’s from South Dakota (the east side).

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 27, 2010 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dont forget Greenway who’s from all of 20 or so miles away from where Leber grew up.

We are the vikings.......resistance is futile.

by Hoss-Drone on Jan 27, 2010 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

2nd or 3rd round

He made Adam Weber look like he was a serviceable quarterback. Thats talent.

by why am i in omaha on Jan 27, 2010 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I will disagree...

only because we have players from the surrounding states.
Sage is from Iowa
Kleinsasser is from ND and even went to ND for College ball
Greenway is from Iowa but from SD and so is Leber
These are guys just off the top of my head. I believe Decker will be drafted. As for Minn. players in the NFL., currently there is only four on active rosters (that was with some quick reseach). I think it would be nice for the Vikes but they would need to have a Joe Mauer like impact to really help the team.

by VikingCobber12 on Jan 27, 2010 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Really? on the Joe Mauer like impact?

For a MN player to help the team they would have to be the best player in the league at their position?

by archie2227 on Jan 29, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Vikings should pick up Triplett in FA

For no other reason than it’d be cool to see the only D-I athlete ever from my town play professionally in minnesota.

by JTW on Jan 27, 2010 5:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and

he is a beast, my favorite player on the gophers this year. For the record, i went to all the home games and watched every other game, so i have some idea of what talking about (albeit not much)

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 28, 2010 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Triplett!

I’d love to see Nate Triplett work out with the Vikes. He’s from my home town, Delano!

by Hagar the Horrible on Jan 28, 2010 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

whoa

small world. haha

by JTW on Jan 28, 2010 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cody can’t play in a Tampa-2 variant system (what the Vikings run). Granted the Vikings can be a little schizo about these things (e.g. Jasper Brinkley isn’t really a Tampa-2 MLB), but I’d be shocked if they drafted Cody.

They haven’t picked a defensive back in round 1 since 1994. But I’d say that’s the position they’ll most closely consider. They had poor coverage metrics across the board, and didn’t generate any interceptions, despite playing behind a top-5 front 4. Their top CB probably needs to move to nickle or safety due to his foot and age; and their 2nd CB has a torn ACL.

by jianfu on Jan 26, 2010 10:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

Can you explain to me why Cody won’t excell in our defensive structure. I had not herd that about him. I would appreciate any info . The Tampa 2 is a little confusing to me.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You can google “Tampa-2” and find a ton of info of various depth. The Wiki page is here.

But at it’s simplest, the premium is on speed and technique. Cody lacks both, came to the senior bowl at 370 lbs, and reportedly gets winded after two plays. I don’t think he goes in the first round at this point. He’s a project NT in the 3-4.

by jianfu on Jan 27, 2010 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and Pat Williams is the most speedy, technical tackle in the game…

If you can't laugh at yourself... Who can you laugh at?
The Packers, that’s who.
-- The almighty Manimal

by TheViking83 on Jan 27, 2010 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve stated elsewhere that Pat Williams was holdover from McCombs/Tice. He’s been able to work because while he’s not Booger McFarland, he does have good agility for his size.

And Cody is no Pat Williams.

by jianfu on Jan 27, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pat Williams is speedy

He goes from sideline to sideline. That’s part of why he is great.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, he actually does have better speed then you would think for a guy his size. I saw him make a couple of tackles this year that required some running, and I found myself really, really surprised.

by packallday555 on Jan 27, 2010 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's true

you do see him making lateral movements and getting tackles outside quite often. I was just trying to say that a “big, fat guy” has worked for us all this time, but jianfu was basically saying we NEED another guy with K Will’s type of skill set for this type of defense. I disagree with that, but in the same light, I must admit I don’t know much about Cody’s abilities. I wasn’t aware that he wasn’t comparable to Phat Pat.

Having read a little more on Cody, I agree that he seems like a perfect fit for the 3-4.

If you can't laugh at yourself... Who can you laugh at?
The Packers, that’s who.
-- The almighty Manimal

by TheViking83 on Jan 27, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

To be clear, I’m not trying to say they “need” to do anything, I’m merely trying to predict. Leslie Frazier comes from the Tony Dungy tree. So I just can’t imagine them being interested in Cody.

by jianfu on Jan 27, 2010 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

For Terrance Cody, a lot of experts are saying he’ll end up in Miami to be their NT. On the other hand, some scouts are saying he won’t fit the NT position because he’s too tall, which is a disadvantage for NT’s.

The next thought is Cody ending up in Minnesota to replace Pat Williams. Interesting how he wouldn’t fit the scheme. Pat is no doubt a very athletic DT, but his primary responsibility is to clog up the line and stop the run. That is something Cody can do. On the con side of Cody, many scouts are questioning his work ethic.

Go Pack!

by Jabooty on Jan 27, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cody can dunk a basketball

Cody has excellent natural athletic ability. He is a high character guy.

Like you said, that leaves work ethic and commitment to football as two more things he needs. If he doesn’t have them, we don’t need Cody. If he does, I still think he could fit our defense, and then he becomes an intriguing draft prospect.

The thing is, we have other needs for that 30th pick in the draft, like guard. Assuming we get Jimmy Kennedy re-signed, we have a very good player ready to take over for Pat Williams. And I hope Pat Williams does come back and is effective. That would allow us to draft a right guard to solidify the offensive line.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm wary of Cody

He was a force in college, but he didn’t really put up a ton of stats besides his numerous blocked kicks.

I think he could fill in where Pat Williams is about to leave off. He’s gigantic and talented, no doubt. however, I’m wondering if he’ll be the next Andre Smith. They both went to Alabama, and they both aren’t exactly in pristine shape. Here’s Cody at a recent workout.

Yeah that makes me just a wee bit nervous.

by ericj69 on Jan 27, 2010 1:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Picture Caption "Do my pants make me look fat coach"

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hahaha

look at those tits

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 28, 2010 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

now Romo could get into those man boobs!

by PalisadeKid on Jan 29, 2010 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gilbert Brown

The Gravedigger, Gilbert Brown, was drafted by the Vikings. After training camp, Dennis Green cut him because of his weight. The Packers signed him. He has a great run stuffer and a key part of that defense. Several years later, he’s got his Super Bowl ring, his plaque in the Packers Hall of Fame, and the second-most career playoff appearances in Packers team history.

Cody might be another Gilbert Brown. On the other hand, he might not be. But if he is, and he fits our defense, and assuming he will wear a shirt most of the time, then we maybe should draft him.

But we really need to use that #1 pick on a guard. I’m thinking we can’t necessarily go for the best player available. We have a hole to fill.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 1:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I hear ya, but drafting for need is a bad idea

Just look at our record of drafting for need: Trade Moss, draft Williamson. Smith retires, draft Bennett. Trade Johnson, draft Culpepper. Were all of these guys terrible pros? No. But they were all a bit of a reach. And there were guys left on the board that would have been better picks i.e. Demarcus Ware/Merriman/Jammal Brown/Aaron Rogers; Reggie Wayne/Brees; Jevon Kearse, respectively.
Look at all the DE’s that we reached for because we were trying to improve our pass rush, Underwood, James, Alexander, Clemons, etc.
I know Childress and Co. are much better in the war room than Green/Tice, but drafting for need in the first round is a no no. Best player available is the way to go i.e. Moss, AP.
Side note: Can’t believe we passed twice on Rogers in 05.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Jan 27, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Need/BPA

I am a big BPA backer. This year, though, we are drafting to solidify our team to win the Super Bowl. Thus, I am starting to say “Let’s draft for need this year.”

Let’s say it’s draft day. The Vikings are on the clock with the 30th pick. The best player available on our draft board is a wide receiver. It’s a good receiver, but he doesn’t have Randy Moss level of talent. He won’t contribute much in 2010. He will probably be the #4 or even #5 receiver on our depth chart. We can’t really draft a wide receiver at that pick. We don’t need a running back, either. Offensive tackle? We’ve got two good ones.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Positions and contributions

One thing I am basing this on is how fast a drafted player can contribute to the team’s offense or defense.

Generally, a running back or linebacker can contribute the most quickly. Usually, the rookie of the year goes to running backs and linebackers. These positions in the NFL are the most similar to the college game.

Other positions require time to learn, like defensive line, cornerback, wide receiver, quarterback, tight end, etc.

Over the years, we have had good luck plugging in 1st and 2nd round picks on the offensive line during their first year. Todd Steussie, Korey Stringer, Phil Loadholt, Bryant McKinnie. Like any NFL position, there is a lot to learn, but if we draft a talented enough guard, he can contribute right away.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

God that would be nice

Seeing AD break into open daylight up the middle again would be pretty sweet.

by Grime on Jan 27, 2010 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think the idea is

That superior talent is well superior and you only get a very narrow window at it. So Drafting it is a solid idea later on, everyone starts looking much more the same and it’s a matter of coaching, fitting the scheme etc. Seriously? We could use another Reciever, then if we lose CT we can use Harvin back there, If we got another RB we could trade Taylor and maybe get a experienced CB off of someone. As for OT heck you cnan always use one of those… I understand we do need a guard fairly badly but i think one of those can be picked up later that will be at least as good as Hrerra.

by Grime on Jan 27, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

upgrade

We need a big upgrade over Herrera. He was getting destroyed all year long. I like Herrera a lot, but he just can’t block a Tommie Harris, a Sedrick Ellis, or lots of other players we need our right guard to block.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting discussion

but let me ask you this. If Hutch is so bad why couldn’t Cook or another role player on the bench play better? My point is maybe he isn’t as bad as we think. He didn’t look good though.
Secondly, guards are normally picked up in the 3rd- 5th round. Rarely in the 1st except for this Iupati kid thats killing them at the Senior bowl.

I think players are grouped by the scouts. Group A= Ready to go Prime Time. Usually about 5 of those available. 2nd group= Should be starting half way through the season. Those are #s 6-15. GroupC=Will start next year. Thats kinda how the first round is designed. In fact only 1/2 the first round choices start for their team the first year. Talent Evaluation is what its all about. You might want a guard but there just isn’t an immediate starter available. If thats the case you move on and find that other special kid.
God I’m glad I’m not a scout.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry I meant Herrera not Hutch

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Randall McDaniel

The Vikings’s first-round draft pick in 1988 was Randall McDaniel, guard. It was one of the best draft picks the Vikings have ever made.

by medicineball on Jan 27, 2010 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And at #19

by nmvikesfan on Feb 1, 2010 1:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, it sounds as though Iupati is going to be gone before pick #30. Not sure if there’s any other interior lineman with a first round grade.

My guess is they’ll go CB in round 1 and OG in round 2. Just a guess, though. Who knows? QB could come into play somewhere early, though I doubt it this year.

by jianfu on Jan 27, 2010 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

BPA unless its a WR or RB.

In this year’s draft I dont think any “1st round talent” at either position will be available at #30.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Jan 27, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Really,

That’s what they said last year when we picked up Harvin. They thought Sidney as a second round pick was crap. I’m telling you that this coaching staff/front office staff can find a starter with our #1 PICK. HOPEFULLY IT WILL BE SOMEBODY WE NEED.
Keep the Faith. Its a long time till April.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 27, 2010 9:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

just to clarify LLvike...

I was never against drafting Harvin or Rice. I thought both were good picks. But now with the 2 of them along with Berrian, we dont need another WR, especially with our first pick. I really dont think we need to draft a RB high either, even if Chester leaves.

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Jan 28, 2010 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I understand,

I’m simply saying keep an open mind to talent. Lets say Spillers drops to #30. Don’t we need a replacement for Chester? Dez Bryant drops. He certainly can’t hurt your team. In fact he might start. Put him in as a starter and move Harvin to back up AP. I’m saying you can’t replace this #1 type talent. The other talent you can replace in the 2,3, or 4th round.
Of course you want Need and Talent to fall together. I’m just not that opposed to taking a great player (like AP right after we signed Chester) instead of passing on a great player to fill a need. Our needs are not that prominent.

Hey I understand your thinking and always can agree to disagree.

Hope this clears up my thinking for you.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 28, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol you actaually used the same argument i did on another post

as to why you pick the top talent. There just arn’t that many impact players in each draft you have to get them if you can.

by Grime on Jan 28, 2010 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I knew you were a smart guy. Now I have proved it

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 29, 2010 6:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it was the other way around...

by Grime on Jan 29, 2010 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Youve proclaimed your faith in Childress to handle the TJack situation correctly

So let me proclaim mine in their ability to scout talent. If we select Spiller or Bryant with our 1st round pick, then I will be confident that they did so because they were absolutely the best player available. I’d rather them take the BPA than reach for a need pick.
With that being said, I dont think that will happen, because A both will be gone by 30. And B because if those guys are available its because teams were reaching for QB’s earlier in the round so Lupati and Witherspoon will probably still be on the board at 30 for us to take!

"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula

by NMVike on Feb 3, 2010 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Either one of those and I would be a happy camper come draft day.

by Grime on Feb 3, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's why we go after who we want.

I’m with you medicineball, Taking the best available player works if you only won 5 games last year. We have a couple of specific needs. That’s exactly why I posted earlier that we don’t need all 7 draft picks. Target 2 maybe 3 players period. Unless a player we actually covet falls to us at # 30. Move up to the middle of the 1st round. Then get the next player in the 2nd round or early to middle 3rd. Use next years 2nd or 3rd if necessary if that’s what it takes. Harvin & loadholt are keepers & we need a couple more guys that can come in and impact right away. We should be able to get one of the top OG in the draft. Lets open up some holes for AP. Then get another DB. The best corner or safety we can get. Our staff has done a good job drafting. I’m sure they already know who the top guys at these positions are and have a pretty good idea on where they will go in the draft. Lets go get them and get back to the Superbowl.

by iowaron on Jan 29, 2010 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

According to the draft chart

( which is followed by most NFL clubs) our 2nd and 3rd picks would move us up to 15th in the draft. For the right to move up 15 spots (Still not get a top ten talent) you give up depth on this entire team. Remember the Vikings don’t get to take any free agents in this year. What are you going to do if Brett retires and Phat Pat retires? Fill in with 4th rounders or worse? Can’t move up this year unless it guarantees us the QB of the future.

We can find an excellent guard at #30. Excellent guards abound in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Cornerbacks will run deep through the 2nd round. We might get a DT with the #30 or a great Linebacker. Many highly rated DEs will be available. I don’t care who or what it is. At #30 you take that special player that has mysteriously fallen and get real value with your pick.

If you try and trade next years picks then it will cost you a one round up. That is if I want somebody’s 3rd round this year it will cost me my 2nd rounder next year if I trade a future pick. Not sure why its just the way it works.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 29, 2010 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Alexander

was a reach past Warren Sapp because of character concerns. Let’s not forget that one. I’d rather have talent with a few problems than a bunch of good guys who can’t play.

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Side note: Can’t believe we passed twice on Rogers in 05.

Well, they thought they had their young franchise QB in Culpepper, who was coming off his best statistical season. Granted, Culpepper never quite seemed trustworthy, and they were trading away his bread-and-butter in Moss, but there are other teams who should probably feel worse about Rodgers.

Of course, they FUBAR’d that entire 2005 draft for many other reasons.

by jianfu on Feb 3, 2010 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you forgot to mention he had his own burger line at Burger King too…another crowning achievement of Gilberts: The Gilbert Burger.

by TrevorR on Jan 28, 2010 8:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Quick Thought

If Pat Williams does retire, an intriguing target would be Tennessee DT Dan Williams. If nothing else, the Williams Wall would remain intact!

by MinnesotaCatFan on Jan 27, 2010 9:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

We should shoot for

Patrick Robinson with our first pick, Dexter Mcluster with our second, Walter Mcfadden with our 3rd. and after that im not so sure.

by vikesfan4lyf on Jan 28, 2010 5:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Dexter

I really like Mcluster. Reading about his senior bowl practices makes me like him even more.

He would be a great scat back type player, and would fit well in our offense.

by bgkrenz on Jan 30, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Isn’t that what Harvin is though?

by packallday555 on Jan 31, 2010 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What it boils down to is who is left on the board when our name is called

It would be real tough if Dan williams and Patrick Robinson are still on the board, I would have to go for Robinson because we need a CB in the worst way. Lord willing come draft day when we pick at #30 there will either be a top notch CB, OG, or DT waiting there for us.

by nmvikesfan on Jan 29, 2010 12:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Do you mean Lord Ziggy or was that a reference to Tebow? LOL

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 29, 2010 6:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Iupati

Would be my choice.

by medicineball on Jan 29, 2010 8:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok here is my take on this

First you pick talent, you have to, it’s just the best idea and teams that do it do much better in the long run for it. Now with that in mind you can look at talent at many different levels. Mike Iupati, may be just as good as Robinson, or Cody. They all are dominant in their positions. So, once you have that then Iupati would be my choice.

We do need an OG badly. Next year no matter what we need to get our run game back on track and a monster in the middle is exactly what we need. Sulli is not the biggest center in the world and while he is fast (good for pass blocking) it would be nice to see another big man beside him.

Think about this, Loadholt, Iupati, Sulli, Hutch and McKinney.. that would be a fearsome line to say the least and Peterson would be drooling over it. How many games are won in the trenches? Especialy once you hit the play offs.

by Grime on Jan 29, 2010 8:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I like that analysis

I agree with the way you presented this. Talent first. Right now Iupati did such a good job at the pro bowl that some have him going as high as top 15. Cody is lower 3rd of 1st round. Robinson is probably mid 2nd round. He could have shown more at the senior bowl like a couple of other CBs did. I have no problem, all things being equal with taking a guard. But I do believe it is more difficult to find that special CB in the second round than a guard. By the way I have seen two mock drafts where they have the Vikes taking a guard in the second round. Both times we got the 2nd best guard in the whole draft.
I’m just betting the farm that with the first three picks we get three great people.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 29, 2010 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll agree with you there.

I don’t think a first roung CB would fit with what we run as our Cover-2 I think the ball hawking superstars are wasted on our scheme. As well, I think that getting the best guard for the money will have the most impact on our team. We already have a lot of talent in our skilled positions and getting AD on a roll again should be our main priority no matter what QB we pick up. If we do pick up a DB in the first I like Thomas a lot. I think he would be fun to watch run around back there but he is pretty damn young.

by Grime on Jan 29, 2010 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you on the OG Grime

I realize that you have to pay a penalty to move up in the draft. Lupati looks like the man to me but if our staff doesn’t feel that he’s a difference maker then take what #30 has to offer.
AP ain’t getting any younger & if we can get a guy they can spring him lose a couple of plays a game that is huge. A guy that can solidify a position for the next 10 years is worth a couple of draft picks. We won’t be picking in the top ten for a while anyway. Remember what happened the year after our 15-1 98 team. That’s right, Nothing. You don’t bide your time in this league. Get what we need and get a shot at the big game. We want a championship. I’ll take a Superbowl ring followed by a few years of mediocrity any day. We have had decades of mediocre teams. This team is Superbowl ready. I’m not talking sell the farm Herschel Walker stuff. Just a couple of guys that are solid enough to make a great team just a little bit better. SKOL Vikes.

by iowaron on Jan 29, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Look at the projections

Iaputi is slated to go earliest at 30 for the Vikes. So I think we have a chance with getting him with no moving up. The trenches are were teams win the day. And I don’t see us getting a QB this year that will be the next insta Favre. So we need to get out run back on track. Or D Line helps to hide our problems at CB. Our run will help hide problems with our QB. And if Favre is thinking about coming back this year how do you think he’ll feel about a bright new and shiny OG to protect him?

by Grime on Feb 1, 2010 8:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve seen Iupati being projected to go as early as 18th to the Steelers. After setting the world on fire at the Senior Bowl I think Iupati dropping down to 30th might be a long shot but way crazier things have happened.

by packallday555 on Feb 1, 2010 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, Iupati had the scouts dazzled at the senior bowl. Coming out of Idaho, the obvious question was his quality of competition. So when he shows up and dominates, that gets people excited.

Brandon Albert went #15 overall a couple years back. I think Iupati could be around that area. The 49ers have two picks in the middle of round one and have some serious offensive line issues. I think it’s likely he ends up somewhere in there.

The next rated interior lineman is Florida’s junior G/C Maurkice Pouncey. He’s sitting on that borderline 1st/2nd round grade right now. Vikings fans that think they might consider OL in round one (or trade down to early round 2) should research him.

by jianfu on Feb 2, 2010 1:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good players trump schemes

Honestly, look at the Jets this year. They started off with a monsterous D, then lost their NT. A couple of rough games latter they realized what they had in Darelle Revis and started cheating coverages to the other side of the field or into the box and they posted the #1 D. A good coordinator will adjust their schemes to best utilize their personnel.

by zebano on Feb 1, 2010 7:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great point.

by packallday555 on Feb 1, 2010 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

with quality coaching

That is a good case for a coverage CB. Even though the Vikings are married to a stupid zone system all the time so that everyone knows that there will never be double or triple coverage on anyone, they COULD benefit from a coverage CB, but they are afraid of abandoning a predictably average system (even though it’s always provided below average D vs. the pass since Frazier has been here).

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

True, true.

Here’s the Vikings opponents’ completion % since Frazier’s been here:

2009: 63.7% (8th worst, league average was 60.9%)
2008: 61.1% (they were par, ranking 16th worst with a league average at 61%)
2007: 64.2% (5th worst, league average was 61.2%)

My opinion is parts of their defensive philosophy—mainly the secondary play that focuses on limiting big plays, YAC, and waiting for teams to beat themselves (the NFL’s interception rate this year was only 3%) instead of suppressing completions—has become outdated. Teams just know how to attack a team like this now. The Vikings are fortunate their offense was so good this year.

That said, Asher Allen was drafted out of Georgia where they ran man-coverage almost exclusively, so maybe they’re moving away from focusing solely on the Cedric Griffen tweener types. (And to be fair to Cedric, he was the least of their problems in the secondary this year; I just prefer they stop settling for guys with his upside.)

by jianfu on Feb 3, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Excellent point about the league INT rate.

I was excited when they drafted Asher, and I hope you’re right that he represents a change in the defensive philosophy, which is badly needed.

by KC Viking on Feb 3, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If we can get the 2nd best OG at the bottom of the 2nd. Go fot it

I’m not sure about that but it would be nice. Does that mean OG are not that much in demand our its a weak position in this draft? Hey lifelongvike I’m ok with 3 great guys & lets use the 4th-7th round picks to trade up a few spots if we feel good about some people that we have targeted on our board.

by iowaron on Jan 29, 2010 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well don't forget compensatory picks.

we should get two extra late round picks as compensatory picks this year. We should get a nice one for Sharper. Although these can’t be traded it does provide a little wiggle room for trading late round picks. But our late rounds aren’t worth anything. Our 7th round pick is two people away from non drafted status. That is unsigned free agents. I wouldn’t mind just drafting top quality and letting them try to earn a roster spot. Like i’ve said this coaching staff is good at drafting.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 30, 2010 6:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

do we lose a compensatory pick for Farve?

I was wondering about that. Thanks.

by medicineball on Jan 30, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My understanding is that compensatory picks

are given out by a secret formula for losing a free agent to another team. Farve is not a free agent. He is under contract for next year. If he retires we get no pick.
I think you can hire all the free agents you desire and it has no effect on your comp picks.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 30, 2010 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cool! Thanks

I was worried that we would have to send a pick to the Jets.

by medicineball on Jan 30, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Compensatory picks don't come from a team.

They are added picks in the draft. Example all teams pick in the 5th round. After the 32nd pick the teams awarded 5th round compensatory picks select their comp picks before the 6th round starts. They are simply extra picks.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 31, 2010 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think we have two 6th picks

for Sharper and Birk.

by Grime on Feb 1, 2010 8:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m starting to fear West Virginia QB Jarrett Brown. In a QB class full of pop guns, mixed bags, and spread specialists, Brown’s emerged during Senior Bowl week as the one guy with the NFL tool set. He’s big and athletic, he can move around, he can throw the out with a flick of the wrist.

He also has minimal experience, and some consistency/accuracy issues.

And guess who his nfldraftscout.com comp is? Guess…

by jianfu on Jan 29, 2010 8:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Oh that is very funny. I didn't know anybody compared to him.

At least we don’t have to use a draft pick on him.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 29, 2010 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

2nd rounder then

lol

by zebano on Feb 1, 2010 7:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like someone Childress would love

If he drafts the 2nd coming of Tarvaris Jackson and neither turn out, will it finally be time to fire him or at least put a moratorium on drafting future Tarvaris Jacksons?

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We need Booty

OH YEAAAAA

I love Twins Baseball and Minnesota Vikings Football.

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Jan 29, 2010 10:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Where is Thigpen when you need him.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 30, 2010 6:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

prospect talk

I am seeing a lot of mock drafts with the Vikings taking Patrick Robinson, Donovan Warren, Dan Williams, and some other rumors and links. I have this to say about that.

At the Senior Bowl today, Patrick Robinson showed he was not a great tackler. The #1 (or at least #2) thing the Vikings want from their defensive backs is good tackling. In the Vikings defense, the cornerbacks must play good run defense. Robinson is not bad at run defense, but he isn’t up to the tackling level of a Vikings cornerback.

On Donovan Warren, he is a junior. While he has a lot of talent, he strikes me as raw. The Vikings would like their top picks to get a lot of playing time. I’m not sure Warren is the best fit. I haven’t seen Warren play much, though.

On Kyle Wilson, I question his tackling ability. He dropped an interception at the Senior Bowl. He probably doesn’t have great hands. That said, in coverage he is really good.

Nate Allen would be an interesting guy for the Vikings, with his ability to play CB or safety.

Dan Williams would be awesome, but after his great Senior Bowl performance, I have a hunch he will be long gone by the time the Vikings are on the clock in the first round.

On Tony Pike, he is a developmental prospect. I hope the Vikings do not take him because of his weak arm strength, and he throws inaccurately on the run.

On Tim Tebow, he is a long-shot to make it in the NFL at quarterback. We saw today what a speedy, physical, NFL-like defense does to his game. It blows it up. His mechanics will need to improve significantly to be good in the pros at QB.

Ben Tate, RB, Auburn apparently can rush, catch, and pass-block. For the Vikings, Chester Taylor is an unrestricted free agent. If Taylor cannot be re-signed, and with Peterson being a one-dimensional running back, Ben Tate could be interesting guy on draft day for the Vikings.

As a Vikings fan, I hope the Vikings don’t take what we fans think too seriously, but who knows, maybe they’ll read our commentsand get a spark of an idea. They should draft players who they think are good, and make the fans happy on game day. In other words, if the Vikings draft a guard at the #1 spot, and a lot of fans are disappointed, I say good, as long as we made a good draft choice. Some fans always want to draft a “skill position” or a highlight-film guy, but that isn’t always the best draft choice.

by medicineball on Jan 30, 2010 8:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Draft good players

Best advice any team can have. Fans like us really have little clue as to what exactly makes a good player on certain teams. We simply parrot what “experts” say. Obviously, some teams don’t have a clue either or they would draft better.
Our team has drafted so well I hope they continue doing whatever it is that they have been doing well. Whether its scouting or interviewing, or watching tape. Just keep up the magic.
I find it fun to try and guess who they will pick but I never believe I know more about it than they do.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Jan 31, 2010 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

I read somewhere that teams go out and read blogs and stuff that fans write about the team, and then do what the fans want out on the field or, gulp, on draft day. It sounds unlikely, but it could be true.

I like the idea of them keeping their ears open for ideas, and reading fan comments, but I would rather our coaches, front office people, and players make the key decisions. I trust the people we have in place.

by medicineball on Jan 31, 2010 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How about Thomas

He’s a redshirted sophmore but he’s a damn good DB. A little hawkish and I’m not sure that it will fit into our knitting circle of defense but he would be fun to watch.

by Grime on Feb 1, 2010 8:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Strong Senior Bowl performances and sr. years

These are poor reasons to inflate a guy’s draft status, in my humble opinion (see Ryan Cook). Maybe it can be helpful to note that an elite DE performed well against an elite OT, but nobody’s stock should skyrocket based on 1 game.

The 2nd worst reason is the strong senior year (see Brodie Croyle finally staying healthy 1 year).

by KC Viking on Feb 2, 2010 9:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Tony Pike - Cinnci

Would he go before pick 30?

by redhearring on Feb 3, 2010 1:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

to tebow!?!?!?!

by redhearring on Feb 3, 2010 1:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i changed my answer

to tim tebow

by redhearring on Feb 3, 2010 1:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hard to say

They are two different kinds of QBs. Both out of the shotgun. Pike has a much weaker arm but Tebow has poor throwing mechanics. Tebow can run and Pike can “move within the pocket” pretty well. Chances are Tebow has a greater chance of being a Franchise guy but still has a good chance of being a bust. Pike didn’t look good in the Senior bowl but has a good probability of hanging around ( at least as a back up) for awhile. Tebow is popular with fans. Pike is unknown. Don’t be surprised if Colt McCoy goes before either of them.

Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes

by lifelongvike on Feb 3, 2010 4:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs