Should/Could/Would the Vikings Trade Bryant McKinnie?
by jianfu on Feb 6, 2010 5:38 PM CST
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PrintBecause it's a long offseason...
So after a season-long (or maybe longer) love/hate affair between the team and its longtime left tackle Bryant McKinnie, capped off by an eye-roll-inducing pro bowl snafu, is it time for them to consider a new direction? Vikings radio personality Paul Allen had beat writer Judd Zulgad on his show this week, and both of them sort of conceded the team's grown tired of McKinnie behind the scenes. On the one hand, a team with championship aspirations doesn't want to trade its starting left tackle; on the other hand, if it's time to move on, it's time to move on.
Last year Jason Peters netted the Bills a late first round pick. Peters and McKinnie are fairly comparable talents, IMO. Peters is a few years younger, but McKinnie has proven to be more durable and maybe even more consistent (which is saying something). I doubt the Vikings could get a first round pick for McKinnie given his flightiness. But a high second rounder (plus maybe something at the end of the draft) would seem to be realistic, especially given several teams at the top of the draft have holes at both QB and LT. You can't draft the former when you lack the latter
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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Let's face it
he’s declined the past couple years, and he’s not getting any younger.
His value will only go down, I say trade him while we can still get something decent for him
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Feb 6, 2010 5:46 PM CST reply actions
Let him go
That he was selected for the Pro Bowl should be a bonus selling point on his value, but it’s starting to look to me like he’s just not working out, mentally, with the Vikings. Bad fit, call it what you will, but I don’t think the man wants to be there and his play suffers accordingly.
Let him go and draft a replacement.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Keep him
First of all, I respect your view. I see where you are coming from. Respectuflly, here is mine.
We are trying to win now. There are only a handful of left tackles in the NFL that are better than Bryant McKinnie right now. They are guys like Joe Thomas of the Browns. None of them wlil be traded to us. There is nobody in the draft, not even Russell Okung or Iupati, who could come in and play nearly as well as McKinnie can next year at left tackle.
McKinnie was having a great year. He injured his ankle in the Arizona game. He came out for one play. During that game Herrera was out with a concussion. He probably could have come out for the rest of the game. At that point, Jon Cooper and Ryan Cook both had to enter the game, as Artis Hicks swung out to left tackle. After that play, McKinnie manned up and came back in the game. For the rest of the year that injury hurt his productivity, particularly in the Panthers game. Even with the injury though, he did a decent job at left tackle, especially in pass protection.
In the Saints game, he played reasonably well. He protected Brett Favre well.
The Vikings running game had a drop-off mid-year. With the injuries to McKinnie and Hutchinson, it was bound to happen.
On the Pro Bowl dismissal, he wanted to play. He is from Miami. He went to school at the U. This was his first Pro Bowl. He had a cortisone shot, or Toradol, or both to play in the Saints game. Those are wicked painkillers and he elected to not get them again when the pain returned in the days before the Pro Bowl. He contacted his agent about dropping out of the Pro Bowl, but the agent didn’t forward the message along.
I am disappointed with McKinnie. He should have dropped out personally from the Pro Bowl to make sure the message got through. He should have made a decision one way or another earlier. Whenever anything weird or bad goes on in his life off the field, it always seems like alcohol is a factor. I am very concerned about him. When he is on the field though, he gives the Vikings a lot. In 2009 before the injury, Bryant McKinnie played like Bryant McKinnie.
We do have a number of tackles on the practice squad. McKinnie’s job is probably safe in 2010, however. I just hope he gets everything going in a positive direction. If he could have another Pro Bowl season, and the rest of the team plays like they can, too, this next year could be super for the Vikings.
Nice post, but don’t get me wrong, I’m not a McKinnie hater. In fact, I think he’s always been a tad underappreciated by a lot of Vikings fans. We’re talking about a quality (and sometimes even very good) left tackle who, since he took the starting job in 2003, hasn’t missed a game in 7 years except for his 4 game suspension last year. I also think he was the least of their worries on the offensive line this year, and possibly the next couple years.
I was mainly just throwing this out there, as it is an issue with some potential legs to it… I think it’s pretty clear the team doesn’t exactly love him.
And even though I am probably a bigger fan of McKinnie than a lot of people, I do concede he’s always had an shade of underachiever to him, and he is at an age where he is what he is, and soon his best ball will be behind him.
I guess I’m on the fence.
Maybe they could “Richard Seymour” him to Al Davis for the #8 pick. Suddenly instead of looking at the 4tth rated CBs and DTs, we’d be talking Joe Haden or Sam Bradford!
I can dream…
Trade him if Favre retires
If Favre hangs them up then I would trade him if possible. But not because of any of his actions on or off the field. I think we need to attempt to trade up in the draft to get Bradford or Clausen. If we traded our next two first round picks plus McKinnie (who should be worth at least a 2nd & 5th round pick) we definitely can move up to #8 where Oakland is at and probably to #5 where Kansas City is at.
If we trade with Oakland I would offer the two firsts (1240 points) plus McKinnie for their #8 (1400 points) & #69 (245 points). McKinnie has to be worth the average of all the points in the second round which is 416.
I think it is time to get younger on the offensive line before it is too late. And I am not sold that a rookie cannot come in and do an adequate job. Loadholt did and if we pulled off this trade I would pick Jason Fox in the 2nd round.
But if Favre returns than no way does he want a rookie left tackle.
I still think we should move up to get Bradford without using McKinnie and regardless if Favre returns.
The simple fact is we will need to replace McKinnie or get ready for it in the next couple of years. We need to draft an offensive tackle to groom behind him now because when he went out of the game, well it was not pretty.
I'll agree with that
Although I’m not sold on Bradford, but if Favre doesn’t come back we can definitely look to trade McKinney otherwise i don’t see it as being a good idea. Trading your Pro Bowl left tackle when your team almost went to the superbowl just seems like a terrible idea.
We sure do need a QB for the future though.
2 first round picks?
Comon, thats insane right? It’s way too risky to give up 2 first round picks and a probowl OT for a kid who has never stepped on the field. Would you trade AD/Harvin/McKinnie for Braford or Clausen? Cause thats the kind of potential telent you are trading with first round picks.
That said, I think there may be a way to trade up and grab one of those QBs at less of a cost. However, the best move would be to go get McNabb if Philly is dumb enough to trade him. We’ve said it before, the Vikes have a team built to win now. With McNabb the Vikings are Superbowl contenders the next 3 years. Rookie QB, probably not so much. What would we have to give up to get him?? Not sure, I wouldnt give up a first round. Maybe a 2nd round pick this year and 4th round next year.
Well the difference is he's a QB
And they are a rare breed that can do well in the NFL. If he was the next Brees, Manning, Rivers, even McNabb it would be worth it to toss 2 first round draft picks for him and our OT. I’ll throw in a head coach as well :) simply because you have a guy for the next ten years that will help you become successful. I don’t think it’s an exageration when people say it’s a passing league now. Look at the teams that made it to teh play offs. Maybe one or two had a stronger running game than passing game (and I don’t put us in that category)
So no, I think it’s well worth a bit of cost of a garunteed gem. Problem is there are no garuntees…
Exactly
Thats why I believe the best move it go after McNabb. The risk is to great to gamble 2 first round picks. It is safer to go grab McNabb, pay less, skip the developmental phase, and jump right to the top of superbowl contenders again.
I actually would be interested in McNabb sitting behind Favre for a year .
I know it sounds strange but I would pick him up for 2011 if Favre was coming back. He’d have a year to learn and we’d have a QB for 4-5 years while we found another one…
Sounds like he could use
a heart to heart w/ Favre about substance abuse. Where would Brett be if he hadn’t learned to abstain? Likely divorced and out of football well before this season ever came about, IMO.
No, we gotta keep McKinnie
He got beat a few times this year, but McKinnie is still one of the better OT’s in the league.
With you chaosg, leave well enough alone for now.
Can’t start playing Russian roulette with your left tackle. We can’t make a determination based on Brett because we won’t know if Brett’s going to be back until training camp anyway. Maybe in 2011 we trade or look for a young guy in the draft.
Hard to say
Two years ago, heck after the love boat incident I wanted him gone but instead we gave him a big contract extention. He finally made the Probowl after being the #7 overall pick and that’s because of years of underachieving. He has played better theses last two years but not without incident. That said we are a championship team now and I don’t know if getting rid of him now for a rookie would hurt our chances but also now would be the best time with him making the Probowl to get something for him in return trade value. San Diego might be willing to trade their 1st for him who knows? The main questions are if we do trade him is: is Favre coming back and would he be comfortable with a rookie protecting his blind side or would he decide not to come back if that’s the case and who would we draft that could fill in right away and be a day one starter and do a good job of it? Personally I would let him go because you don’t know if he is ever going to mature, on the other hand, how much would it hurt us if we did get rid of him?
Exactly
This is exactly right. His value will not be higher than it is now in all likelihood. Next year they may not get anything for a will be 32 year old player in 2011.
I do not think he is that good either. He has been in the league a long time and ONLY made the pro bowl because others were injured.
If we want to get a QBOTF and we can include him in the package then I would do it.
You have to give something to get something.
I would include Edwards in a package too.
The QBOTF is the most important acquisition that we need.
Probably including Edwards in a package will be more attractive to other teams because of his age.
McKinnie though, will have to be replaced and for those of you who want to keep him longer, I can see your point and do agree. At the same time the organization has to look at return on investment.
If we keep McKinnie and then end up releasing him for nothing and then being forced to let some rookie man the position, well then we are the Clippers!
To be honest what I really would do is trade with Oakland up to #8. I would include McKinnie in the package. It probably will take our 1st, McKinnie, our 1st next year. But we would get their 1st and 3rd this year.
But I would not take a QB. I would take Okung, Buluga, or Campbell.
That is why I have never even been offered a chance to interview for the position of GM.
Can you believe that?
In all honesty
Mark, that is not a good trade. Do you honestly think we have no shot at all of winning the Super Bowl? If you do think that, why? If you don’t think that, why would you trade away the key pieces of the puzzle we need to complete the mission? Plus 2011’s 1st rounder which could turn out to be a key player.
If McKinnie’s value will be highest next year, that is the year we really need him on the Vikings.
by medicineball on Feb 7, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
Yes I do
If Favre retires then I say the odds of the Vikings winning it all are much higher. I have no faith in TJack or Sage at this point in time. With the way our running game performed this year I am fearful of much improvement.
The Vikings need to replace their left tackle and right guard and eventually left guard.
But most of all they need a QBOTF.
The Vikings pick #30 which is 620 points. McKinnie should be worth at least a 2nd which averages 416 points. Oakland picks #8 which is 1400 points. So if the Vikings got the #8 and the #69 which is 245 points, the trade value “in points” is fair.
When Hicks played at LT there was not much drop off that I could see.
The Vikings could pick Bradford or Clausen at #8 & hopefully Jason Fox at #62. I would also pick Ciron Black or John Jerry later.
I also think that Loadholt could play LT if he had to and they still have Hicks & Cook for RT.
The Vikings could keep McKinnie and substitute Ray Edwards in the trade package which may be more to the Raiders liking.
Either way, they need to address the QBOTF situation first and foremost and that will cost something. If you think that it wont then I would love to hear your plan for the QB situation.
Um hicks was a total drop in play
Which is why even when McKinney was injured he was out there instead of Hicks.
Yes
That was the first four games of the 2008 season. During that time things did not go great for the Vikings. Tarvaris was benched, etc…
Thinking it over, I think your example of a San Diego (or maybe Dallas, or someone in the latter 1/3 of the first round) would be the only conceivable scenario where they could consider it: where if they thought they’d have a chance at a decent LT prospect (Bulaga, Campell, Brown, etc…), they could essentially just try starting over there, trading their LT for a draft pick they’ll use on a different LT. Because they don’t exactly have a young guy currently on the team that profiles as a potential blind side type. Loadholt’s probably the closest thing, and I’m not sure they’d go there. And it isn’t like they don’t have other needs where it’d be no big deal to just spend their own first rounder on a tackle.
In other words, it’s probably not worth the trouble unless behind the scenes they’re just completely done with the guy. I don’t think we’ve seen any evidence to suggest it’s gone that far. They’re probably annoyed by him and maybe even wouldn’t mind moving in a different direction if they could, but the well’s probably not poisoned to the extent they’re going to go through a lot of trouble just to spin their wheels at the position (maybe).
It is interesting to note that neither Super Bowl team has any former first round picks starting on their offensive lines. Of course, both also feature a heavy dose of shotgun, as well as two QBs that make a decision and get rid of the ball as quick as anyone. The Vikings don’t have such a playbook nor such a quarterback.
I would trade McKinnie to the Raiders for the #8 pick. Maybe giving our first next year is too much. Maybe we only give our 2nd next year. I would pick one of the younger tackles who are unproven. It is a gamble.
But McKinnie has not lived up to the hype. Sure he has played every game where he did not hold out or was suspended. But he finally made the pro bowl and that was because of injury.
I just don’t get why he is thought of as elite. Look at Oher who was drafted at #23. He almost made the pro bowl already in his first year. I would take my chances with Buluga, Campbell, Davis, or if for some reason he was there Okung.
I would then hope Tebow was available at #30 if we kept our first round pick this year.
But I am crazy!
Tebow
He’ll be there at pick #30, and probably pick #62. Maybe even pick #94. He ain’t exactly a hot prospect right now. The only project first round QBs are Clausen and Bradford, and I wouldn’t be surprised if one or maybe even both of those two even slid out of the top 10.
not worth it
He would only be worth it in a later draft round like the 5th or later. He’s not worth paying much right now. He needs at minimum two years of intense coaching.
I was thinking about Tebow yesterday. His throwing motion is so bad I half-convinced myself he would do best to start throwing right-handed with the proper motion. Just give up left-handed throwing entirely.
Tebow would only be worth it if we could keep him on our practice squad for about two years. He’s not worth wasting a roster spot on.
There is no farm system in the NFL. What Tebow should do is hire a private coach for himself and get a job as a QB in the CFL or UFL or arena football or something. A couple of years later maybe he’ll be good enough for the NFL, but I doubt it.
He was flat out ugly at the Senior Bowl.
I don’t think he can written off completely. He’ll never be a pure QB, but maybe he could carve out a Vince Young type persona. He has a LONG way to go either way.
Bad fit for Vikings, too, no matter what round we’re talking.
I must respectfully disagree
I just dont get how fans can say that Tebow will NEVER make it as a QB in the NFL when you have guys who have coached like Gruden & Dungy who said they would take him if they were still coaching.
I guess the coaches are just blowing smoke up our arses. I dont know why I cannot see what you guys are seeing.
All I know is the dude can play football. Plain and simple. He will get it done and if he does not I will be in here posting that you guys were right.
With the other choices after Clausen & Bradford neither of whom I think is particularly durable, I would roll the dice on Tebow.
What is wrong with spending the first round pick on him?
We spent the second & fourth round pick on Tyrell Johnson who is just average at this point in time.
We spent the #7 pick on Troy Williamson and the #18 on Erasmus James.
Maybe picking Tebow at #30 will make us forget about Demetrious Underwood!
Consider the source
I have all the respect in the world for Dungy, but remember he was out advocating for Michael Vick too. I think Tebow deserves a shot, but I have to agree with jianfu, he’s a raw prospect thats neither fit for our system or deserving of picked #30 overall. 5th or 6th round maybe, but not any earlier.
I dont particularly like Clausen or Bradford either. The only 2 QB’s I like in this draft are LeFevour and Pike.
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
No, no...and no
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
No
We need him at least another year. Or until we can draft or obtain someone to replace him. Right now we have too many other needs to worry about another OL position.
Some of you guys almost sound greedy! While McKinnie never became what many thought he would become, he still is pretty good. He probably is a top 10 LT in the league, and will probably be able to give you guys 2-4 more years of good enough play. Too be honest there really isn’t even 32 starting caliber LTs in the league. While I can maybe understand why trading him now would be a good deal, I don’t think it’d be smart for you guys. It’s not like you guys got a guy waiting in the wings to take over at LT, and who knows if you would be able to find one that can get the job done at the level McKinnie can.
It is about the future
Every position has those same problems. What are the Vikings going to do when Hutch is almost done? What are they going to do when Kevin Williams is almost done?
I guess the prevailing argument is to just ride it out and then do something. What that will be remains to be seen and will involve the same amount of uncertainty.
It is a gamble but an educated gamble.
If giving away McKinnie to get Bradford has to be done then I would do it and play TJack all next year as he is mobile. They may have to always have somebody chipping on that side or the TE over there. So be it.
They have to start somewhere and I say start with getting a QB.
But since McKinnie is too important, I say fine, then trade Edwards as part of the deal. That actually may work out better.
Every position has those same problems. What are the Vikings going to do when Hutch is almost done? What are they going to do when Kevin Williams is almost done?
Every team finds themselves in these situations every year. Just because guys are getting older doesn’t mean you trade them away, especially if they still have talent left in them and a good team around them. By trading away McKinnie all you guys would likely end up doing is minimizing your chances at a SB (if Favre comes back) and start the rebuilding process 2-3 years earlier then you should have too.
by packallday555 on Feb 8, 2010 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
Really it makes sense
Take a play out of the Packers book, don’t trade someone unless you have their successor ready.
Bottom line is improving the O-line
Whatever that takes, that’s what the Vikings need to do.
If they think that trading McKinnie in order to pick up a quality replacement, then so be it. What I don’t understand is that he’s supposed to be so great, but I just didn’t see it last year. In fact, I saw him getting beat, regularly, and I saw him failing to stay in plays, failing to pursue the ball if there was a fumble or interception. I saw a lazy player and it was disappointing to me, and I suspect, to many others. Yet the man warrant’s a Pro Bowl nomination. I’m out of answers for that.
One thing I do know is that Favre got nailed entirely too much. The Vikings MUST address the O-line issues this off-season, because whether Favre is back, or not, Viking QBs shouldn’t be punching bags.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Historically, we have let too many go before they were done
Alan Page, Joey Browner, Henry Thomas, Randall McDaniel, Gary Zimmerman, Chris Doleman, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, Todd Steussie, Darren Sharper (even I have to admit that now), Matt Birk, Mewelde Moore, DeWayne Washington, Tyrone Carter, Brian Russell, Robert Griffith, Fran Tarkenton, Corey Chavous, and John Randle. The list is probably longer.
These are all guys who the Vikings let go for different reasons, and then they went out and performed well for other teams.
In some cases guys had attitude problems or run-ins with the coaching staff. Sometimes guys didn’t fit “the scheme” and sometimes they just got let go.
Then they went out and produced for another team. Not the Vikings. Somebody else.
My point is this. Great players do last into their 30s. Take Rodney Harrison. In his long, productive, likely-Hall of Fame career. He did some great things at the end of it for a team that didn’t draft him.
Sometimes we change schemes when we didn’t have to. Sometimes we drafted guys who we shouldn’t have. Sometimes there were hard feelings. My point is this organization has to put a stop to this ongoing problem.
Talent retention is critical. It starts in the scouting department, before a player is drafted or signed. It starts at the top and goes through the coaching staff. One of the key things this organization must do is be designed to attract and keep talented individuals who will want to stay with the Vikings.
With Bryant McKinnie, there is no good reason to let him go. Thus, we must keep him.
The longer guys are with the club, the more they help the club because they are more efficient. Football players are human beings. They aren’t interchangeable cogs in a machine like some data points in a fantasy football roster. These are flesh and blood beings who want the opportunity to excel with the Vikings.
What team is feeling the dumbest right now? The San Diego Chargers because they dumped Drew Brees. Very, very stupid.
No Crystal Ball
I think the reason that teams let go of producing players before they’re “done” is because they think they can get some value out of them that will extend beyond the 1 or 3 projected remaining years of productivity. They feel they got the best of them, and they want to get high value while the high value is still there. That being said, while I agree that it’s not always the best decision for the team, there’s usually additional reasons for letting go of a player who’s still producing well for the team.
Some expansions though….
- Joe Kapp was let go because he decided he was God’s Gift to Quarterbacking and wanted too much money. Subsequently his career immediately bombed out.
- Alan Page was let go because he was having ‘irreconcilable differences’ with Bud Grant
- Fran Tarkenton was let go because he was having ‘irreconcilable differences’ with Norm van Brocklin.
- Randy Moss was let go because he had become a cancer.
- Darren Sharper was let go because he wasn’t willing to play the new role that Chilly wanted him in and was starting to become difficult in the lockerroom, which amounts to ‘irreconcilable differences’ :)
- Rich Gannon was let go because he was a scrub at that point in his career.
- Brad Johnson was let go because he had lost his starting job to Randall Cunningham due to back-to-back injuries and when he recovered, he made it clear that he wasn’t willing to be a backup QB behind Cunningham.
- Mewelde Moore was let go in FA because the Vikings had Adrian Peterson and Chester Taylor ahead of him, and in his last year with the Vikings, his limited touches resulted in very limited production. He chose to leave for greener pastures.
- Matt Birk was let go because he was having issues with Chilly and it amounted to, again, ‘irreconcilable differences’.
I could go on, but the point is that there’s usually reasons beyond just being short-sighted. You mentioned player age, the team changing schemes, changing coaches, bad drafting, hard feelings as the causes, and you’re right. But all those things are part of the evolution of the team, and when there’s an issue with the team, they try something different to fix it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t and they have to keep trying. Certainly there’s no way to predict that a scrub player like Gannon was, will, 5 years after he’s released, turn into a franchise quality QB who will lead a team to the Super Bowl.
There’s just no crystal ball to give any team the answers. You pay your ticket at the door and you go inside, taking your chances. All in all, I think the Vikings do one of the best jobs in the front office of any team in the NFL, and the overall record reflects that, even if we don’t have the Lombardi Trophies to ice the cake.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
It hasn't worked
I see the same things and look at the results: one NFL championship, four Super Bowl losses, and six NFC championship game losses. We have been in the third-most playoff games in the NFL, but have little to show for it.
Whatever the reasons were, at a certain point we look back and wonder what the heck is wrong with us.
Maybe a guy like Randy Moss wasn’t a cancer. Maybe we were the cancer. Let’s look in the mirror.
After enough excuses are piled up, it becomes nothing but excuses.
The year after Brad Johnson was traded, he threw for over 4,000 yards even without Cris Carter and Randy Moss. He went on to win a Super Bowl. Meanwhile the Vikings decided to go with Jeff George.
No more excuses. We must become a team that attracts and keeps great talent. We must be such an attractive team that a guy like Alan Page would never form irreconcilable differences because (A) he wants to play with the Vikings so much, and (B) he remains happy and motivated. Otherwise, he will go play for a team like the Bears, and do something good for them like help create a foundation for their new defense that eventually evolves into the great ’85 Bears defense. Meanwhile, our mid-80s defense was not nearly as good.
We can’t control everything. Sometimes we will need to part ways with a talented player. We just need to do a lot better.
Brad Childress has been the doctor curing the disease. We did have to get rid of Daunte Culpepper, and there was nothing he could personally do about it. Losing Darren Sharper, and not getting enough from him, especially in 2008, that does partially fall on Childress. Childress and our other coaches need to learn from the mistake.
by medicineball on Feb 8, 2010 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
The Vikings are not the problem
Whatever the reasons were, at a certain point we look back and wonder what the heck is wrong with us.
Come up with a legitimate reason and I’ll acknowledge it. But here’s what you’re up against;
ZERO CONTINUITY except for the team colors. Even the horn has changed over the years, along with every player, every coach, every owner, and even the place they call ‘home’.
The only continuous thread is ‘Minnesota Vikings’. Do you think fortunes change if they change that?
Maybe a guy like Randy Moss wasn’t a cancer. Maybe we were the cancer. Let’s look in the mirror.
You drinking Jack Daniels tonight? You look in the mirror if you want, for all the good it will do you. Randy Moss was a cancer, he was a cancer before he was drafted and he was a cancer after he was drafted. Being exiled to Oakland might have cured him, but I’m not sure about that.
The year after Brad Johnson was traded, he threw for over 4,000 yards even without Cris Carter and Randy Moss. He went on to win a Super Bowl. Meanwhile the Vikings decided to go with Jeff George.
The year he was traded, the Vikings decided to go with Cunningham and Johnson wasn’t willing to be a backup. Cunningham subsequently self-destructed which is why George got playing time (who was brought into replace Johnson as a backup). No way to predict that your superstar veteran QB who led a 15-1 team to the brink of the Super Bowl, was going to fall apart so completely the next year.
We must become a team that attracts and keeps great talent.
Done. Harvin was hoping to end up in Minnesota, and the Vikings draw a great crop of undrafted players to the training camp each year.
We must be such an attractive team that a guy like Alan Page would never form irreconcilable differences because (A) he wants to play with the Vikings so much, and (B) he remains happy and motivated.
Not going to happen. Page was putting in less time in practice than Grant wanted, because Page was working on becoming a lawyer and Page placed THAT above being a Viking. That was Page’s choice, and who can blame him? It worked out well, a lifetime career of achievement and he’s a judge now. Good for him. But you can’t expect a coach to be happy when he doesn’t have 100% of his player’s attention and time when they’re on his clock.
We can’t control everything. Sometimes we will need to part ways with a talented player. We just need to do a lot better.
I agree we need to do better, but not just because of talent. I think the Vikings should do better because when you have guys who’ve given so much to the team, there should be some loyalty. That’s the fan in me talking, it has no reference to the real world business that the NFL and the franchises have become. Those guys are mostly professionals, and the NFL has worked hard to destroy the old loyalties and dynasties.
Bottom line, your notion would be bad for business, so it won’t happen.
Losing Darren Sharper, and not getting enough from him, especially in 2008, that does partially fall on Childress. Childress and our other coaches need to learn from the mistake.
Sharper is also partially to blame. He was too old to change his ways and learn to excel in a different secondary scheme. Age was probably causing him to slow down, to lose a step. What do you expect Chilly to do? Change the defensive scheme to accommodate an aging safety who isn’t getting it done any more?
Maybe Sharper wasn’t really slowing down at all, maybe he was blowing coverages and getting blown past because he just didn’t want to put out the effort any more. He made no bones about his unhappiness, it was time for him to go.
I’m not saying Chilly’s a perfect coach… far from it. But I don’t see this issue as a problem, I see it as the natural evolution of the team, and the players moving when it’s their time to move along. That’s the nature of the NFL today.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Football players are human beings. They aren’t interchangeable cogs in a machine like some data points in a fantasy football roster.
Nice!
by JasonAve6413 on Feb 8, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
McKinney, McKinney,McKinney...
This is it he’s a good LT, a very good LT. We’re all pissed because it is easy to see that he could be a great LT. He made it to the Pro Bowl, he did that for a reason. Most players in the NFL don’t go. Most players never even get a chance to be in the pro bowl. The problem isn’t that McKinney is a bad player it’s that he’s lazy, and every time we see him standing there watching the play go by, or seeing him fail to get to the second layer for blocking we all get upset. The thing is he is a great run blocker, he will crush the sides in and let Hutch pull out to support the run. He is a good pass blocker (when he is healthy) there is no DE alive who is going to be able to bull rush that man, and even spinning he can handle most people, just look are Ware.
I wish that McKinney would get off his fat ass and got conditioned. I’ve seen his type before they are naturally big, naturally strong a bit quick. But it all comes naturally so they don’t ever really create a work ethic for themselves.
Anyway, for all our bitching and moaning he is still one of the top 5-6 LT’s in the league and I would defy you to prove me wrong, problem is he’s also one of the laziest. Problem is how do you replace that? A rookie (unless he’s a beast and will go in the top 10) will not be able to pick up his slack. Without a replacement there is no way you can trade him, and calling Hicks suitable is laughable.
by Grime on Feb 8, 2010 8:23 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
You’re right. I mean, that sums it up.
Only solution is to get someone better, but until we do (or unless we have one in the off’ing from trading him), there’s no sense in letting him go.
It’s so frustrating because you can see how good the man could be, if he was motivated to excel.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Trade McKinnie to get a QBOTF
I guess my original trade thought just blew by some of you or you choose to ignore it.
I said I would trade him to move up and draft a Bradford or Clausen.
YOU HAVE TO GIVE SOMETHING TO GET SOMETHING!
McKinnie has some value now and can be added to a trade package especially for a team like Oakland that needs a left tackle. If we can avoid giving up too many picks and still move up to #8 then I would trade him. I also said they may take Ray Edwards instead of McKinnie.
I just want to know how we can move up to get one of the top 2 QBs this year?
I would love to read any ideas.
And finally, I don’t think that McKinnie is all that great and he has not lived up to his potential. How many years does he get? The run game is not improving and in fact is regressing. That is not all on McKinnie but he is part of it.
AlI know for sure is this.
In two years he will be 32 and we will definitely be looking at drafting a replacement. What do you do then? And we will need a QBOTF at some point in time unless we keep signing aging veterans to play the position or hope that TJack can do it.
But heh, lets keep McKinnie until the wheels fall off and hope that some QB falls to us in the draft. That is a great idea.
I’d rather get the QB now and do the best we can at left tackle. Next year maybe we sign a free agent LT like Matt Light from the Patriots.
Super Bowl
Mark, your position is that the Vikings have no shot at all of winning the Super Bowl next year, even if Favre returns.
Many of us think the Vikings do have a really good shot at it. But if we trade away key players, that really good shot wlil go away. One of the most talented teams in the NFL will turn into rebuilding mode when guys like Adrian Peterson are in their prime.
by medicineball on Feb 8, 2010 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
Read the original post
I said IF Favre retires
If he doesn’t then I know he will not come back if we trade McKinnie.
But we can still include Edwards in the deal. Oakland will need a DE especially if they cannot keep Seymour.
I’ll take my chances with Robison, Mitchell, & a rookie.
I am hoping the Vikings draft Lamaar Houston who also played DE at Texas. Either him or Tyson Alualu would be good against the run and they can let Robison rush the passer on 3rd downs.
Maybe it is not ideal but if they get Bradford or Clausen then it will be worth the risk.
I still have not heard any ideas of what to do about the QB situation regardless if Favre retires.
Maybe I’m way off base.
I just like our team
Maybe you don’t think highly of our guys, but these guys are key pieces of the puzzle we are building.
In my opinion, Bradford is likely a bust. Clausen could be good, but he is not worth giving up a lot for. If he somehow falls to us with the 30th pick, take him. We have quarterbacks already.
Yeah I like our team a lot as well
but i would like our team a lot more if we had a QB after Favre left. The main difference between you and Mark is that for some reason you still think TJ is a good QB. I sat down and researched him a bit while replying to another one of your posts. He is not a good QB. He is a bad one, who numbers have been helped a lot by the worlds best RB. when people throw 9 people at the run and the QB still has below average numbers that does not mean he’s good that means he is terrible. Could you imagine what we could have done with Rivers under center instead of TJ? Check this average QB’s on bad teams get TJ’s numbers 1900 yards in a season? That is not elite. 9 TD’s? Terrible. 12 Ints even worse. with 2 people in the back field he should have been able to have field day after field day even with craptastic receivers. And he had Berrian through most of it. I would like to see you argue a double team on him with 8-9 in the box.
Sorry man I really didn’t like TJ before but that was more of a gut feel after looking around at around 6-7 sites now it’s no longer a guy feeling it’s straight up fed up.
Check this, lets say your in sales you have a guy that goes out and gets leads and he’s great the best, we’ll call him Adrien, now your the saleman it’s your job to sell the product, this guy is slow pitching em to you and you still can’t make the sale. what do you do? You toss him. That analogy might have sucked, but I don’t have time for TJ to be sucking on my team.
Really?
We have QBs already? If Favre leaves which was my whole premise (well actually I would do it anyway but keeping McKinnie), we have TJack and Sage.
If you think they are OK then I guess there is really no point in continuing as we will disagree.
I respect you view but I would take a chance. Bradford or Clausen would sit the bench all next year learning the system and gaining strength. Perhaps the year after that they would take over. But I would not rush it. they had just as good of college careers as Rodgers. So if the Vikings do not rush them then they should be above average pro QBs. I would put money on that. And the Vikings most likely would still have TJack unless some other team wants him.
The Vikings will offer him the 2nd round tender before free agency begins and we will see if any other teams will give up a 2nd round pick for him.
I’ll leave it at that. Peace.
Well here's another thing to look at
Do you really want a QBotF before you have a decent line? Most teams who pick up QB’s with no line support end up having failures for QB’s. It’s just the facts of the game a rookie starting in teh NFL needs as much protection as he can get. Without it he’s just going to get liquidated. So yeah I like the idea of picking a QB for the future and having him sit behind Favre and a solid O Line is probably the best way for him to start his career.
Depends on 2 things already mentioned
1. Will # 4 return?
2. What do we get in return?
The only way we make a run at the SB is if # 4 returns. If he does then we keep Mac.
If #4 returns to the lawn mower and a team like Oakland is willing to give what they did for Semour or Moss, then do it.
I think the oline would be just as good with Loadholt at LT and Cook at RT. I know that’s not going to sound popular, but I’ll elaborate more on that later…
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
+24...pack that is
Hey, its in Dallas next year, thats not too far a drive from us here in NM!
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
My parents live 40 minuted from there..
God I wonder how much those tickets will be. :p Can’t wait to see TJ as Superbowl MVP. Hey Medicine if it happens I’ll get you a ticket right next to me in, and you can kick me in the junk when we win the game.. (Only if TJ takes us there though)…
nmvikesfan can call me "Mr. Knowitall" every mile marker on the way to Dallas
But only if TJack wins Comeback Player of the Year, Offensive Player of the Year, and League MVP. Now if he wins Super Bowl MVP, I get to honor you with the title “Mr. Knowitall” all the way home!!!!
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
The T-Jack decision will be made by February 26. Only17 days to Go!!!
The date to tender contracts to all restricted free agents is February 27, 2010. At that time we will know what the front office thinks of T-jack. Is he worth paying 3 Mil next year and dissuading other teams from negotiating with him by requiring a 1st and 3rd draft choice?
Will we sign him to a long term deal? Will we let him leave for a 2nd round choice? Is he our QB of the Future?
It matters not what we think. Shortly we will know the thinking of the coaches and front office. The answer will go a long way in determining the direction we go in the draft and the future of this team.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Wow didn't realize it was that close
Here’s to hoping they make the right decision whatever that may be. Personally, I hope we get a second round pick for him!
Bad feeling
A month or two ago, the Pioneer Press had an interview with him, and he said the Vikings had not discussed extending his contract.
I would like to see the Vikings extend Jackson to a multi-year deal without much in guaranteed money. It would probably be at about where Sage’s contract is.
But the Vikings won’t do that, I’m afraid. I hope they at least put a first-round tender on Jackson. That would assure the Vikings of keeping him for a year. Even if a team does sign him away and he is lost after that we can get a Taylor Mays or some difference maker in the draft.
I’ve picked up the same vibe. From being buried not once but twice on the depth chart last year, to being shopped around (unsuccessfully) for a mid round draft pick, to being completely unmentioned at Chilly’s post-season presser when discussing the longterm future of the team’s QB position, to (to our knowledge) not having any conversations with the team about a contract… Maybe the team wants to turn the page. We’ll see.
But we also need to remember that if they’re just going to tender him, they really don’t NEED to negotiate or anything. I don’t think there’s a team out there that’s going to give up a good pick for Tarvaris Jackson—he’s only going to draw interest if he’s freely available—so if they do that they’re almost assured he’ll be retained.
I have said before we can't keep 4 QBs on the roster. If T-jack is the guy
then they will Tender him high and try to sign him long term. We will then trade Sage after a Farve decision to return. If T-Jack is not the guy we will tender him low ( 1 MIl & a second round pick) or not tender him at all. In that case we will be drafting a QB or picking up a FA after Farves decision if necessary. Only 17 days to go to know the answer.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 9, 2010 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
Letting T-Jack go would be a huge loss
He is still progressing. We have to keep him even if he’s buried. If he’s going to be the 3rd QB, then give him a small contract. Just keep him on the roster and let him progress. He will get there.
Ideally, we will keep Brett, Sage, and Tarvaris in 2010. Sage helped Brett a lot by studying game film. We probably can’t keep Sage unless he is on the roster.
If I made the decision, we would do that, then put Tyler Sheehan, QB, Bowling Green, on the practice squad. He is unheralded and could last the year there (unlike Thigpen).
by medicineball on Feb 9, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
I have a question Medicine and you may have answered this before
But what makes you think Tarvaris is getting better? And actually a better question is how good do you think he was last year when he basically benched himself and how much do you think he needs to improve before you think he’s good enough to start on the Vikes?
some answers
First, his passer rating has gone up every year. The 2009 rating doesn’t count for much, of course, but it did go up.
Second, his turnovers have gone down.
Third, he dealt with pressure better. In the playoff game against the Eagles, he came under a strong pass rush from up the middle. He threw off his back foot toward Rice. It was a pick-6. This year, and admittedly it was only at the end of blowout games and in the preseason, but this year he dealt with it better. I remember him buying time by scrambling, and then either picking up a few yards on the ground or finding a receiver. I saw the panic fade. He was less concerned about getting hit hard, and acted more confidently and effectively both in and out of the pocket.
Ideally, he would get another 500 attempts. That would put him at over 1,000 for his career. A common saying is an NFL quarterback need 1,000 attempts before stuff really starts to sink in.
The next time Jackson gets a chance, I just want to see more of the same. Being efficient. Picking up a first down here. Getting a touchdown. Avoiding turnovers. A little more accuracy. A little better judgement at the line, especially in the face of blitzes and pressure. Calling an option or even an audible. That’s what I would like to see next time. But most importantly, just put the team in position to win. Get the win. The rest is not as important.
One more thing
Leinart came in for the Cardinals during their blowout win over the Bears. He immediately threw a pick-6 and the Bears almost came back with some other plays. The Cardinals were forced to put Warner back in to seal the game.
Jackson was a positive in all of his appearances in 2009.
2009 really doesn't count
He only had 21 attempts and a 66% completion rate with one TD and no interceptions. Now during that time he did hand off the ball more than he passed for sure. In the same vein he also was at the end of blow outs and running was expected.
I do appreciate your answer though and I agree it does give some hope that TJ is improving. However, if Childress does put TJ out next year I really hope he does it with certainty and keeps him in the entire year. Or at least until he completely loses it. Pulling him for Frerrote was in my opinion a terrible idea and made as a person worried about his job more than he was worried about the team.
I see your point
On pulling Jackson in 2008, it may have been to protect him from the unruly home crowds and their booing him constantly. The quarterback like other players needs confidence.
by medicineball on Feb 10, 2010 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
yeah I understand that, but you got to man up out there
This was not his first year, it was his third year and in any profesion there is a time when you have to start producing. The thing is stopping him from producing doesn’t tell you anything. You need to see how he handles it does he use it to become better? Does he collapse? Does he just ignore it and keep playing the way he always did. Without leaving him in you really have no idea.
I have a son and we just started Karate, he is terrible at it, but he’s also 6 so I terrible is ok. Now when he asked me to take him out of karate because he didn’t think he was doing well I told him to suck it up buttercup he had made a decision and was going to stick by it at least for the six months we had agreed on. Now it’s been two months after this conversation and while the next couple days taking him were bad as he cried and threw a fit, he eventually came out of it and no is enjoying himself. He learned something about himself and I learned something about himself (and myself I am way more patient that I thought) point of that story (there is one) is that in the end we found out something. Now if he’d quit and totally decided he was done with it I would have let him and we would have found out something different.
Fact is he took TJ out and we didn’t finalize any decisions about him.
I think it would be outstanding if they could get ANY sort of draft compensation for TJack, but I really don’t think teams are going to be interested unless he’s freely available. How much is a 2nd round tender? Are there lower tenders?
Ray Edwards could be interesting, though. I wouldn’t mind retaining him, just because of his age and the fact he might finally be getting it. I don’t know if he’s ever going to be Robert Mathis to Jared Allen’s Dwight Freeney, but he’s showing an upward trend.
He looked like a stud in the postseason; but Vikings fans know he played over his head in the postseason, too.
To me, the Vikings seem to be in good shape, here, right? $3 million is a decent price for a 25 year old defensive end coming off an 8.5 sack season and a huge postseason. You’re not going to beat that on the open market. And if another team that misses out on Julius Peppers and decides to make a run at him—and we’ve seen how crazy the DE market can be—the 1st and 3rd round picks are a very, very nice consolation prize to a team with as many depth issues as the Vikings have (not to mention the QBOTF issue).
T-Jack might be sought after.
I think it would be outstanding if they could get ANY sort of draft compensation for TJack, but I really don’t think teams are going to be interested unless he’s freely available.
Even though Viking fans don’t like T-Jack many teams are looking for an experienced Qb that has won more NFL games than he lost. Has playoff experience. Has improved each year. And has learned one year under Brett Farve. Some may prefer to use a 2nd round pick on an untested rookie with issues. Some may decide Tarvaris is a better use of that pick.
Except for Campbell and Pennington I have not heard of any better QB on the market this year than T-Jack.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 9, 2010 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
It was rumored that you guys tried to trade Jackson earlier in the the year, and it was also rumored that no one was interested. Who knows how true that rumor was though.
by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
Thats the problem with rumors. They just are not rtrue.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
many teams are looking for an experienced Qb that has won more NFL games than he lost. Has playoff experience. Has improved each year. And has learned one year under Brett Farve.
You must be talking about Matt Hasselbeck. Or is it Mark Brunell? Aaron Rogers? no he sat for 3 years behind Brett. Hmmmm
LOL
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
Actually a place like St. Louis could use him
He would be right up there with their regular QB’s and might even be able to start for the team. I went over there and they were actually talking about him or Campbell as future QB’s for their team.
Seriously how happy are you that your not dealing with that!
Skol Vikes!
My God! Did you say something Positive about T-Jack. shhh. Don't let NMVike hear you. LOL
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
No doubt
Teams were happy to snatch up Brad Johnson off our hands too. Rich Gannon also found a home after he left the Vikings.
My whole point is: let’s keep Tarvavris and get the benefit of all we put into him.
He could definitely use a nickname. I suggest “Tav.” (like Favre he has a unique spelling of his name, and his name is not pronounced as it is spelled. His name is pronounced “Tah var is”. The first “r” is silent. (Vikings media guide).
Well lets not get ahead of ourselves here
at best it was a back handed compliment! I mean it is the Rams…
Trade him...
McKinnie was exposed in the Carolina game for the overrated OT he really is. Trade this guy for someone that can contribute in 2010.
You really are a knee jerk reaction type of guy aren't you
Not that it’s a bad thing but..
McKinney was injured while playing against the Cards. This caused him to be much slower off the ball Peppers ate him because of it. The sad part is that the coaching staff obviously thought his back up was MUCH worse or they would have kept him in.
If we’re getting rid of McKinney then I say toss Jared Allen and Winfield as well, start over from scratch we should get a crap load of picks for these people.
You can't fix fan reactions to bad games Grime. Just let it go.
Most fans think they can replace 9/10ths of the team simply by drafting a player in the 7th round or getting an undrafted player to come to camp. They have no idea what a top 10 Offensive tackle is worth. Ask Brett. I bet he can tell you how much McKinney is worth to this team.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 9, 2010 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
But just think of how many draft picks we could get if we traded
Jared Allen, Winfield, McKinney and hell lets just toss AD and Favre in there as well…
That would be like at least three first round picks!
Wouldn't it just be easier to trade names with the Detroit Lions
Then we would have a QB of the Future and no Offensive Line, Rbs, Cbs, or DEs.
Ok, sarcasam off
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 9, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
McKinnie has been in the league 8 years. He finally made a Pro Bowl this past year because others were injured. I dont see how people can keep making excuses for the guy. He is above average but not Pro Bowl level IMHO. If anyone wants to put some money on him making another Pro Bowl then I am taking the bets. The reason why I considered trading him is because of his miraculous Pro Bowl selection his value is probably at it’s highest point. If Favre does not return then he could be used to move up in the draft.
Any maybe to NOT GET A QB. If Okung was available at #8 and Oakland wanted to trade I would move up to get the LTOTF.
But maybe the Vikings do something outside the box. Let’s say they like Pike or Tebow or LeFevour. they can trade Big Mac and get the LTOTF and then draft the QB they like later. That would not disappoint me at all.
IMO it is time to get a replacement for McKinnie. He has never played up to his potential. No one can argue that. As each year passes his value diminishes and we will eventually just release him. That is OK too.
Just because a poster thinks that he should be traded does not mean they dont know how hard it is to get a good LT or how hard it is for late round picks or UDFAs to make a team. Cause I want to trade his ass and I do know all of the above.
Ok your not thinking this through
If you traded McKinney who else would stand straight up half way through the play to watch what was going on? Plus on run plays he’s how I tell where the line of scrimmage is!
See you don’t get that kind of training at school man, that’s Gov’ment training for sure!
The added bonus:
his stance also tells us the fan, the viewers at home, and the opposition if the plays is going to be a run or a pass! Yay!
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
Yeah Mark you don't get it.
Grime and I need someone like McKinney to help slow witted fans follow the play————————slooooowly! But I digress.
Mark you are an astute fellow and know your players, their strengths, and weaknesses well. Over your several posts you have suggested ( please correct me if I have misinterpreted) that in order for our Vikings to succeed in the future we need to make some roster changes. You are not afraid of blowing up the team because without a great QB we can’t win the SB. If it takes trading a few good men then so be it. We have to start with the QBOF.
I get that philosophy. I’m not sure I think its the best strategy ( I only wish I knew the best strategy) but I get the philosophy. But in the last few posts you have suggested getting rid of Jackson, Edwards, and McKinney. You always make great suggestions about alternative rookies that might replace them. But what if they don’t work out? We both know that rookies can be tricky. Lets say Brett decides he is really retired. Jackson gets picked up with a second round pick. Edwards moves on for a first round pick. And you have traded McKinney for a first round pick. Then you draft a QBOF ( 2-first and a second). The QB ends up looking like Brady Quinn. Now you have Sage (with no back up) and a bunch of rookies at DE and OT ( only one is a first rounder) that we pray will work out.
That is the scenerio some of us are hoping will not occur. Yes its a gamble. Yes, it might be a bonanza. But please contemplate the disadvantage if it just doesn’t work out. I refer you to history. The Hershal Walker Trade ( couldn’t have been a worse front office deal) and the 2005 draft ( all experts rated it an A+).
I have come to respect your opinions but it does seem like your advocating a very risky maneuver.
Again, I’m anxious to hear if I have gotten your idea correct.
Thanks
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Actually if you could get a first round
for McKinney or Ray and it was the right team you might be able to pick up the rookie for the price of one of our guys.. Which is still risky but I would trade Ray for a decent QB for sure. However, I don’t think we’ll get a first round pick for Ray (it would be realyl nice if we did though)…
Heck of a Gamble
Letting go of a known very good DE, for a 2nd draft teir rookie QB (that is, not one of the top prospects, because those guys will be gone)…..
I would love to see McKinnie replaced with someone better, still want that to happen, but I acknowledge that finding someone better is probably going to be extremely difficult. I wouldn’t want to let McKinnie go unless we had someone better to replace him with.
On top of that, even if you are getting a great QB, you must absolutely protect the QB, and for that you have to have a solid O-line. I think that the O-line comes first, because if they can give a middling QB plenty of time to pick his target, it’ll be enough to make that middling QB look very good indeed.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Starting with the QB of the Future
‘We have to start with the QBOF.’
I get that philosophy. I’m not sure I think its the best strategy ( I only wish I knew the best strategy) but I get the philosophy.
I think it depends on where the team is… the Lions have done that, and if they draft half as well as the Vikings, in about 4 years they’re going to be major contenders. IF Stafford pans out as they hope he will, as it looks like he probably will.
If at all possible, you grab your QBOTF in the draft, some guy who looks like he has all the tools and can succeed in the NFL and in your system. You can afford to do that because your team sucked baboon noogies the previous year and you have a top 5 draft pick to spend.
Fortunately for the Vikings, unfortunately for their draft situation, they did a little bit better than that, and their first round draft pick is worth about as much as the #1 pick in the 2nd round. So we’ll have to hope that someone really cool falls to us in the draft because every other team had a higher need to fill, or didn’t believe in the cool guy. OR, we cough up someone valuable in exchange for that top pick.
I think the idea of starting with the QBOTF is the right philosophy when you’re building the team, because you have to build the offense around the guy, and his skillset. If a Coach is lucky, he can land a QB who’s a perfect fit with what he already has (e.g. Favre), but that kind of serendipity can’t be counted on.
In any case, that’s not who the Vikings are… they aren’t a building team, they’re a team that is (and I really hate to use this phrase but I think it’s true) built to win NOW. They almost went to the Big Dance and arguably should have. Most of the team is young enough that they’re only going to be better next year. Those who aren’t can likely see their positions upgraded in the draft, or we may pick up some jewel-in-the-rough in FA. Speilmann & Co have proven themselves in the evaluation department, I have faith that they’ll make some good choices in the months to come.
But the point is, we don’t have the luxury of focusing everything on grabbing the QBOTF now. It’s not a philosophy that fits the Vikings, where they are now, it would be too expensive.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
the Ravens didn't have a QBOTF when they won the Super Bowl
Neither did other teams like the Bucs.
by medicineball on Feb 10, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
Exceptions do not prove the Rule
They only prove that there are exceptions to the norm. Despite the validity of chaos-theory, there are trends and order does rule the day. Most of the time :)
The norm is that a top team has a very good QB at the helm. The QB position is not one that’s easily covered by being strong elsewhere, there’s only 1 QB.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
As well the league isn't the same as it used to be either
how many teams made it to the playoffs this year with their teams based off a strong running attack and weak QB play. How many were in the final 8? The final 4? The only ones you might say would be the Jets and their defense helped them get as deep as they did.
That about sums it up more or less
You are correct LL.
It is all predicated on a few things.
Favre returning, our restrictions in free agency, salary cap considerations, players sign-ability, getting better depth, getting younger along the lines, and some of the supplemental revenue money possibly being taken away from Wilf.
Of course if the draft picks are crap then we are up the creek without a paddle.
I don’t think I posted that I am in favor of getting rid of TJack. Although I do not think he is the long term answer at QB. I like him but I just do not have faith in his ability especially in crunch time.
Edwards is strictly about money and getting something in return if we cannot sign him or if what he wants will be too much tied up along the defensive line. I do want to see Robison get some more action.
McKinnie was about getting a QBOTF and I have not been overly impressed with his play considering his pedigree if you will. Dealing McKinnie was all about trying to get one of these QBs without giving up too many picks. I believe he has reached his peak both in value and in play. I think he can maintain his current level but we never know if a young guy could come in and play better like Oher did last year.
Here is what I think is going to happen. We will not trade up. We will attempt to draft a replacement to groom behind McKinnie. We may end up losing Edwards if we cannot reach a contract extension before free agency. If I am running the Vikings, I want to know what kind of money Edwards wants before I put any tender on him. If he wants too much for my budget then I have to put a lower tender on him or just trade him to a team like Tampa for their 3rd round pick and let them give him top dollar. I think they will put a 2nd round tender on TJack but pay him more via a contract extension for 3 years. Maybe they get that done before free agency begins.
In the end the changes I proposed only affected one position greatly and that is left tackle. With Robison and Mitchell already able to play LDE (plus KWill played some before in his career) that spot would not be in too questionable position. But if they got a pick for Edwards they could draft a youngster that may bomb as you said but they would be coming into the league with more potential than Edwards did if they picked one early (like Hardy or Pierre-Paul or Griffen). I would take my chances. Sometimes these transactions take place and it is usually because teams cannot afford to pay everybody top dollar.
Here is what I really would do. Trade up with Oakland including McKinnie in the deal. Then pick Russell Okung hopefully, Bruce Campbell, Anthony Davis, or Bryan Buluga. then I would pick a QB in round 2 like Pike or Tebow or LeFevour in round 3. I have been talked out of the top two QBs and into a new young stud LT.
Call me crazy.
Sorry, but I call you crazy
Ray Edwards was born January 1, 1985. He was 24 this past season, and he is 25 for the 2010 season.
He has not even hit his prime. He has four years of NFL experience. He is coming off his best year so far. He has not even reached his potential yet.
So when you say the Vikings will draft someone who comes into the league with more potential than Edwards, you are way off-base.
Edwards was only a fourth-round pick, but he would have been higher if there had been no concerns about his attitude. Well, his attitude is all positive now, and his game is showing it.
Who are we going to draft that has more potential than Edwards but won’t end up costing us as much? Brandon Graham? Carlos Dunlap? Do they really have more potential
If we spend a 1st round pick on one of them, we will be paying that rookie about as much as Ray Edwards would get with a re-upped contract or whatever. And much less production in 2010.
Look, the NFL probably won’t even play for much or any of the 2011 season. The 2010 season is it.
Pedal to the metal.
Who are we going to draft that has more potential than Edwards but won’t end up costing us as much? Brandon Graham? Carlos Dunlap? Do they really have more potential
Hell ya they do haha! Keep in mind Edwards had been a bit of a disappointment until he had that big game at the end of the year. He’ll probably just be a pretty average DE in the NFL who benefits from playing with some of the other best DL in the league.
I don’t necessarily know if you guys should trade him though.
by packallday555 on Feb 9, 2010 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Matter of Opinion I guess
I never thought Edwards was a disappointment. I thought he was ‘workman-like’, doing his job, performing credibly if not spectacularly… until towards the end of the season when it started to come together for him. Bear in mind, this was his 4th year.
The real question, was the level of play he achieved in December/January, a fluke, or a sign of things to come? I think it would be very shortsighted to bail on a guy when he’s just developed to the point of going either way.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Edwards
He was thrust on to the field his first and second season because of injuries to Udeze and James, then with the Allen trge was moved to LE where he had to learn the position. This year it looked like he picked it up understanding the position and thriving in some games. Someone ( can’t remember who said it) said that he was the unheralded member of the D-line but that offenses knew who he was because of his great play. At the end of this season, namely the playoffs, we saw what Ray-Ray is capable of and I believe the best is yet to come.
Teams have taken notice and are lining up for his services with Philly at the top of that list. We definitely need to resign him, if he leaves and Phat Pat retires we lose the left side of our starters on the D-line.
The real question, was the level of play he achieved in December/January, a fluke, or a sign of things to come?
Yeah, this definitely is the question.
Maybe “disappointment” was the wrong term to use. I guess what I think when watching him is inconsistent. It seems like one game he is good and then the next 5 or 6 he disappears. And while this isn’t necessarily even a bad thing, it might get frustrating watching him be relatively quiet despite facing only 1 guy with no chip next to every play.
The more I think about it “workman-like” is a good term for him. He is pretty good against the run and shows flashes rushes the passer. Like you pointed out he’s in the his 4th year and should be hitting his prime, so it’ll be interesting to see how he progresses or regresses the next couple years.
by packallday555 on Feb 11, 2010 1:47 AM CST up reply actions
I know these other kids have more potential than Edwards did coming in
That is the key. Coming into the league. They have more potential to be better pros. Will they be? Who knows but sometimes it is a chance you have to take. And packallday is right. Edwards is benefiting from playing with Allen, KWill, & PWill. Do you know how many LDEs in the league would tell you they could do the same or better than Edwards if they played on our line? I don’t but I am sure there are many.
But you still have not addressed the main point of why I think he may go to another team. Money. You say put the highest tender on him. OK. he gets 2.5 mil next year. then what about 2011 when he will be an UFA? I am not worried about there being a lockout. Both sides are not that stupid.
So what would you give Edwards in 2011 that he will accept?
Would you franchise or transition tag him and pay him 9 mil or more?
Keep in mind that Alen will make 9 mil and KWill will make 6 mil in 2011.
That will be 24 mil against the cap for 3 defensive linemen.
This point is the one you keep glossing over and seem willing to lose him for nothing next year.
I can tell you right now that I am predicting that THEY WILL NOT franchise tag or transition tag Ray Edwards ever.
And I like Edwards. It is about the salary cap and getting a ROI.
Ray Edwards has been a nice investment that probably has played himself into a nice huge deal but from another team. So why not get something in return? If I lose Ray Edwards but pick up Greg Hardy or Tyson Alualu in the 3rd round then I can live with it.
I would love to keep everyone and have them all be happy and jell and get great chemistry. The bottom line is these dudes want to get paid.
How much does Ray Edwards want and how much can the Vikings afford to spend on the defensive line?
Please Expand
Look, the NFL probably won’t even play for much or any of the 2011 season.
Why do you think this?
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Lockout
The owners have opted out of the CBA. That will lead to the free agency changes and salary cap-free year unless a new CBA is negotiated pretty soon (and it won’t).
The players are receiving about 70% of all NFL revenue, claim the owners. The owners say that isn’t sustainable and the players’ share must shrink. The players dispute the 70% figure and don’t want their share to shrink.
There are other combustible issues like a rookie wage scale.
If the players show up and play in 2011, as they are expected to, they will be paid. Unless the owners lock them out. The owners will almost certainly lock them out for the year.
The last time this happened the players caved. This time the players are paid more money and likely have enough money to live on for a year.
The Packers, the NFL, all kinds of clubs are trimming expenses. The cap-free year is most notable in that it removes the salary floor. Clubs like the Bucs will probably go under the old floor in 2010.
In 2011, it appears there will not be any NFL football.
by medicineball on Feb 10, 2010 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
Nah it will be like last time with scrubs coming out of the wood work
Anyone see the Replacements? Great movie! Anyway, the foot ball wasn’t bad that year it was just.. different. Games were a bit more wild and since the skill level dropped across the board it wasn’t to terrible to suffer through. You saw a LOT more running though.
Owners Will Dictate New CBO
The owners are in the drivers seat and will lockout the players in 2011 if they don’t agree to their terms. Draft picks are being overpaid and management has had enough. Teams like Dallas, New England, Washington and Green Bay are loaded with cash and could withstand the loss of a salary cap while many others including our beloved Vikings generate little revenue. I hope they will decide to keep the salary cap and revenue sharing in place for the good of the league.
If they don't I could see football going the way of baseball and losing it's popularity.
The thing that the NFL has is two main things in my point of view. A salary system that allows every team to at least be competitive, and they don’t play as many games which makes each game worth watching and mean something. Without these two things I think the great game of football will start to slide.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Owners will lve a lock-out
There beloved 5 Billion dollar T.V. contract still pays them when they put scrub teams on the field. The union players don’t get paid. This gives the owners the luxury of not having to deal with the present issues they have with internal revenue sharing.
This year there is no salary floor. Watch many teams cut payroll way to the floor. We will know by the owners actions what they really think of putting competitive teams on the field.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 11, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
My bad. Title should " Owners will Love a Lock-out"
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 11, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I have downgraded my demands for McKinnie
I am willing to take a 3rd and a 5th for him now!
He is not changing or getting any better. I am convinced of it. In fact I believe he will start regressing faster than we think.
I just do no think he is really into football any longer.
I think he is into getting paid but the wear and tear on his body is something I think he really is not too thrilled about.
His trade value is at it’s highest point NOW!
I would trade hi mto San Diego fro Marcus McNeil and a pick.
FWIW
I could not disagree more. Yeah he can barely play football. Yet he earned a spot in the Pro Bowl. Big Mac is good.
by medicineball on Feb 11, 2010 8:39 PM CST up reply actions
He is not changing or getting any better. I am convinced of it. In fact I believe he will start regressing faster than we think.
Wow, the season is barely over and You change your mind on McKinneys worth in one week during the off season. You must have watched a ton of film.
We will simply have to agree to disagree on Mr . McKinneys value as a LT. I say he is top 15 in the league. We have no one better on the team at that position. Instead of putting our QB more at risk lets simply draft a LT and let the new guy try and earn the positon. If Mckinney is the problem it can be solved the old fashion way.
Last week you were only getting rid of McKinney to get a QBOF. Now we are dumping him for 3rd round picks. This way we have no QBOF and no decent LT.
Sorry, Just don’t see it happening.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Feb 13, 2010 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that’s some serious hatin’ on the guy, lol.
Personally, I’m not at all happy with Big Mac, don’t understand how he gets Pro Bowl level props based on what I saw during the regular season. I think he’s lazy and someone needs to stand behind him with a hot poker to keep him moving. I think he has a lousy work ethic, and a negligent attitude. I would love to see him replaced by someone with at least as much ability, lower mileage, and none of McKinnie’s issues.
But getting rid of him, without having someone better to replace him, would badly hurt the offense. It would make it harder for whoever’s QB, harder for whoever is running the ball. The hind-end pick that the Vikings have this year isn’t likely to net a rookie who can step in and do that right away.
No matter who the Vikings have at QB, that QB must be better protected that what we saw this year. I have no doubt that even T-Jack can put up Favre-like numbers if he has plenty of time to wait for his targets to open up.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
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