Joyous Disappointment
by Ted Glover on Feb 7, 2010 12:57 AM CST
35 comments
It is a good day to be a Vikings fan, and it's also a bit perplexing, with a dash of kick to the junkiness stil lingering in the background, like a hangover that you just can't shake. We all know where the latter comes from; those gory details don't need to be re-hashed. The good great news is that John Randle, the crazy-ass eccentric, wild eyed, over achieving defensive tackle who was the heart and soul of the Minnesota Vikings defense for over a decade, now gets the privilege to wear the ugliest yellow blazer in the world once a year.
WOOOOO! Big Dog's in the HAAAALLLL!!
Randle is certainly deserving. He made seven pro bowls, was named first team all-pro six times, and is the all-time sack leader among interior linemen, and sixth overall. Oh, and he was an undrafted free agent. John Randle invented the term 'relentless motor', and was just flat out intimidating, from his eye black that made him look like a beefed up Gene SImmons and a mouth that spit more fire, for 60 minutes, every Sunday. Welcome to the club, John Randle. You deserve it, and heartfelt congratulations from VIking fans world wide.
But Cris Carter misses out, again, for the third year in a row. And this year, Rickey Jackson beat him out. Rickey Jackson. Really? I mean, wasn't he the bass player for Marlon, Tito, and Michael? Maybe he wasn't, but when comparing his record to Cris Carter's, he might as well have. Rickey Jackson is a good, even a great player, and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. My irritation is that Cris Carter is a no-brainer for the Hall of Fame, yet he still waits. I think there are a few things working against CC right now, among them:
1) Randall McDaniel, Gary Zimmerman, and...John Randle. I'm not advocating that there is an anti-Viking bias, because with three Vikings (Zimmerman won a Super Bowl with Denver, but he played half of his dominating career as a VIking) going in three years in a row I think the voting members don't try and 'overdo' it with too many players from one team. That said, Dallas (2006) and Washington (2008) had multiple inductees. Prior to that, 2000 was the last time there were multiple inductees from one team.
2) His perceived inevitability of induction. When he retired, he was the greatest wide receiver not named Jerry Rice to ever play the game, and two other WR's have gone in ahead of him, MIchael Irvin and Art Monk. Like teammates, voters are also disinclined to vote players of multiple positions in the same class. So the thinking goes, Carter's a shoo-in, but Irvin's a given because he played on the Dallas dynasty of the 90's,, and Monk deserves it after waiting for so long.
3) The electability of others when compared to CC. This ties in to CC's perceived inevitability. If everyone agrees he's going in someday, let's get other guys in while their window of opportunity is open, because it won't stay open as long as it will for a guy like Cris Carter. Hence, Derrick Thomas, Andre Tippett, and now Rickey Jackson are in and Cris Carter isn't. Again, my beef isn't with those who have been elected, it's with the mindset and the methodology of how voters determine who goes in and when.
Why is there a limit of five modern era and two veteran selections? If a guy is Hall of Fame worthy, and there are nine guys that deserve it, let nine guys in.
Why is there an unwritten rule about X amount of players on one team, or X amount of players at the same position that can go in at one time? Again, you're either Hall worthy or not. If a class is WR heavy, it's WR heavy, so be it.
Why do people who never played the game at the professional level decide who goes in? I have all the respect in the world for some writers, but c'mon, Sid Hartman, Howard Balzer, and Alex Marvez each gets a vote? I think there needs to be a healthy mix of former players that are also Hall of Fame members. Shouldn't they have a voice to who joins their exclusive club?
Even though the system is flawed, it is more fair than unfair. Cris Carter will get in, but ironically, it's his greatness that might be keeping him out, at least for the time being.
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I am surprised...
But agree the CC will get in. He is deserving as you point out, and will just have to have the patience we all have grown accustomed to I guess. Kind of like our first SB W, maybe next year. I hope CC does not become bitter over the delay. I know that as with our SB quest, delay of gratification can make the eventual attainment that much sweeter. That is my mantra LOL.
It WAS great to hear that Randle did make it this year, and certainly he is well deserving. That guy played his heart out for us, and it was a joy to watch him in action year after year.l That was one area of the team I never obsessed about (as in what will they screw up this time) when he was on the field. Ah the memories….
Is it Sunday yet? Still a LONG wait I guess until I can say that and have it mean another Vikings game awaits….sigh…
SKOL VIKES!!!
I would rather be IN the Arena than watching from the stands...That is my life!
* Read Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" if you need further explanation...
by vikingfanfrom afar on Feb 7, 2010 3:08 AM CST reply actions
Cris Carter snubbed again.
Man he must have ticked off the wrong people. Cmon, please we all saw C.C. play he was the best receiver on the field in most of the games he played in. Was he not one of the very best a his position for many years? His numbers don’t lie. What is he like top 5 all time. This is a Vendetta a punishment for his early days. These guys need to get over it. He belongs in the hall. This has nothing to do with being a homer. I can remember watching him catch those sideline passes where the only part of him in bounds was the tips of his two feet. He was awesome at it and to this day no receiver does it any better than Chis did. Watching games with people that weren’t even Viking fans and listening to them exclaim man that Carter I wish he played for us. What do have to do march on Canton? Chris Carter is a HOF player period. I know alot of people say that he will get in one of these years. He should be in already. It’s starting to tick me off. Who do we have to write to talk some sense to over this.
First, congrats to Randle!!
MAN, he was fun to watch play!
The 2000’s haven’t been too bad for the Vikes for the HOF. If you look at the teams in the last couple of decades who have multiple people going in, they’re from teams which are candidates for team-of-their-respective-decade (e.g. 49ers of the 80s, Cowboys of the 90s, etc). I think if the Vikes had won a Super Bowl or two, we would have seen more players from those great 70s teams.
Personally, my guy was always Eller who — while clearly having the worst hairpiece in sports history when he was doing that Jheri curl thing — dominated in his day, and I’m happy he made it in.
by VikesNCubsDeadEnder on Feb 7, 2010 9:21 AM CST reply actions
The best explanation I've heard...
… is that you didn’t have to change your gameplan to control Carter. You certainly had to do that to control Randle. He was so intimidating to offensive coordinators that many didn’t even bother to try running right at him, which often worked. Instead they tried to roll the QB away from him or run away from him, which accentuated his skills.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 7, 2010 9:58 AM CST reply actions
If That's The Best...
explanation for Cris not being in the HOF then there really is no explanation. Control Carter? Just look at his stats. Yeah, other teams sure “controlled” him a helluva lot during his career.
Eh, that's a weak explanation
For a good part of his career, there was him and Jake Reed, with average QB’s (except a couple Warren Moon years) and no running game to speak of. To say defenses controlled Carter is a weak argument, when you consider he’s in the top 10 all-time in most receiving categories, and had over 100 receptions in 1994-95, when the Vikings offense was about as pass predictable as they’ve ever been. There was Moon, Reed, CC, and not much else. Unless you consider Scottie Graham a running back beast.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
Personally, I think Chris Doleman deserves to get in moreso than Carter...
… but I’m not going to get upset when Carter makes it. There are less deserving players that are already in anyway.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 7, 2010 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
Disagree
Not saying that Doleman doesn’t deserve to be in, but when you compare career stats by position, the only one (and granted, it’s really the only relevant stat) where he is a career top 10 guy is sacks. I think a lot of Doleman’s detractor’s think he’s a one-trick pony, and quite frankly, I thought that argument would hurt John Randle, because JR wasn’t as strong at stopping the run as he was at rushing the passer. Same argument could be said for Doleman, but both JR and Doleman were such disruptive forces that it did/should overcome their perceived imbalance.
CC was a more well-rounded guy at his position, and did more than ‘just catch touchdowns’. He was a great third down receiver, went over the middle, and pretty much did everything. His stats reflect that.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
In addition...
Two things that arent reflected in his stats, but reflect on his attributes that make him HOF worthy, are his blocking ability and leadership. Look at just about any long Robert Smith or Michael Bennett run and you’ll see #80 leading the way.
In the late 90’s we had a revolving door of QB’s (I guess that’s been true for 20+ years now) so CC was the unquestioned offensive leader at that time.
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
When you've got 150 career sacks, I'm not sure anything else matters.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 8, 2010 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
That's kind of not true.
In Carter’s biggest statistical seasons, he was pretty much the only true offensive star on the team. So yes, defenses DID gameplan against him, and he still put up mega numbers.
Pretty weak
Did you have to game plan for Rice more than Carter? I doubt it…. You game planned to stop the machine that was a Bill Walsh offense, but it’s not like Jerry Rice was the kind of threat that say, Randy Moss was in his best years. Seems like a really horrible argument, saying that Carter doesn’t get in because of defensive game planning.
Randle was the best player at his postion in the decade of the 90s. That pretty much makes you a hall of famer.
In a lot of ways Cris Carter was a better receiver than Rice, and there are at least two things that he did better than anybody who has ever played football: Hands, and boundry catches. Plus he was a great route runner, a very good blocker, a team player, a 110% effort kind of guy…it is sort of a joke for him to not be in already.
by tuckerbjt on Feb 8, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If the guy presenting Carter's case tried to compare him to Rice...
… that probably explains why faired more poorly this year than he has in the past.
I think he’ll get in fairly soon. I just think there’s a bit of a logjam right now and the push to get in a couple of older guys this year probably hurt the chances of those whose careers aren’t widely regarded as slam dunk HOF caliber. Rice and Smith were going in right away once eligible. But I suspect once the voters got behind LeBeau and Little, they became reluctant to vote for many of the more recently eligible players. A class of 7 is pretty damn big, and they’ve already been criticized for throwing open the doors of the HOF a little too widely. Shannon Sharpe didn’t get in, for instance, and he essentially redefined the TE position in the 1990’s.
Personally, I’m not convinced that Carter is an HOF WR, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it when he gets in, which should happen in the next couple of years.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 8, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
I just reread this again...
… and I really can’t believe you’re suggesting that Carter was a better WR than Rice. I doubt even Carter would make that claim. Rice was the most dominant WR in the game during most of his career, and as you point out, he did it without being the kind of physical freak of nature that Moss and TO are. It’s beyond me that anyone would suggest that defenses would spend as much time trying to figure out how to contain Chris Carter as they did Rice, but to each his own, I suppose…
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 8, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions
You forget that J.Rice played with two of the best QB's in NFL history.
I’m not saying that Carter was better than Rice, but Rice definitely had the advantage as far as QB’s go. Carter is highly underrated outside of Minnesota. I’m sure if Carter had Montana/Young throwing to him for 99% of his career, his #‘s would be comparable to Rice’s #’s.
So what?
I mean really, what difference does it make? There have been great WRs who played with average or even below average QB’s the bulk of their careers and who put up huge numbers.
If you want to use the talent around them to evaluate how good they were, then you’d also have take into account the guy they had on the other side. Clearly Moss was a superior player to anyone Rice played with. And while Carter’s QBs changed every couple of years, it’s not like he was playing with a bunch of stiffs either. In Minnesota he caught passes from Moon, a Hall of Fame QB for more than 2 seasons. Brad Johnson is in the top 30 NFL QBs all-time statistically. In 98 Randall Cunningham had a fantastic year, and George, for all of his warts, had a QB rating of 94+ in 1999. And C-pepp, flawed as he was, had a QB rating over 95 on 3 occasions in his first 5 years as Minny’s starting QB, even though Carter himself was starting to fade after 2000.
There were some dogs in there too, like Jim McMahon, but it’s not like he had Rex Grossman throwing him passes for 5 years. Carter may not have had Montana and Young for the bulk of his career, but he had better help at the other WR spot his last few years in the league (which helped keep his numbers up and strengthen his HOF credentials) an he had above average QB play on his teams more often than not. And Jerry Rice had two 1000yd seasons in Oakland WHILE Carter was hitting the wall in Minnesota, even though Carter was 3 years younger than Rice.
Carter might be a HOF WR, but he wouldn’t have touched Rice’s numbers if he had played in SF in the same era. Rice had 9000 more yards and 50 more TDs, averaged 2 more yards per catch. Fortunately for Carter, no one thinks you have to match Rice’s numbers (or his talent) to get into the HOF.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 8, 2010 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
I know of all the QB's that threw to Carter.
None of those guys were as good as Montana/Young, and most of those guys had good careers with teams other than the Vikings. The QB’s you mentioned were either just starting out in their careers, or finishing up their career when they played here.
CC made R.Moss, not the other way around. Carter was great long before Moss was here. When Moss went to Oakland his #‘s dropped. Moss needs a great WR playing opposite of him to be successful.
Same could be said about Moss and the Patriots. The Patriots were a successful passing team before Moss got there.
Moss has speed and soft hands, but he doesn’t run routes well, he doesn’t play the middle of the field, and he sure as hell can’t break a tackle.
Like I said, CC is highly underrated outside of Minnesota. You’re right saying CC isn’t as great as Rice, but I guarantee you that CC’s #’s would be a hell of a lot better if he had Montana/Young throwing to him.
Actually, you were saying his numbers would be the same...
Not a hell of a lot better. But Carter still would have wasted the first 5 years of his career abusing substances (which is why Minny got him on waivers from Philly). Never said Moss made Carter, but you’re nuts if you don’t think he helped Carter in the years they were both in Minny. Moss never became a complete player, but he didn’t have to be to take attention away from Carter when they both played.
“None of those guys were as good as Montana/Young.”
A conclusion, not an argument. But as I pointed out, they don’t have to be as good.
“The QBs you mentioned were either just starting out their careers or finishing up their careers when they played here.”
So what? They were still the best years C-Pepp ever had. Ditto for Cunningham and Johnson, and Moon’s time in Minnesota was very good when he was healthy. Favre just had the best year of his career in Minnesota, but I suppose that we can discount that because he’s near the end? At least according to your logic.
Please. Carter isn’t the WR Rice is. It’s childish to suggest otherwise.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 8, 2010 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
You're right, the #'s probably wouldn't be the same.
but they would be a lot closer….and for the 3rd time now, I’ll say Carter isn’t as great as Rice…. I know this!
but you’re out of your mind if you don’t think CC’s #’s would be significantly higher if he had Montana/Young throwing to him for 18 years.
You know as well as I do that playing 2-3yrs with Moon at the end of his career, or playing with Culpepper at the beginning of his career is nowhere equivalent to playing with Montana/Young for 18 consecutive years…..Child Please!
Numbers can be a little misleading.
They are very meaningful, I know that. But Rice’s numbers are very inflated, just like Favre, just like Emmitt Smith. And I don’t say that to take anything away from those guys: Being able to play at a high level for that long is amazing, no doubt.
What I was really saying before is that Cris Carter was better at SPECIFIC things. He had the best hands of all time—Jerry Rice had better than average hands, but nothing to write home about. I really don’t mean to get into a ‘who was better’ thing here, because Rice’s stats make it an impossible argument, even though Carter was a great WR.
Ted, think of it the other way. Maybe Carter’s stats wouldn’t have been as great as Rice’s, but can you say that Carter’s numbers would have been a lot higher than playing for the Eagles/Vikings. That is a yes. Steve Young and Joe Montana vs the QB’s Carter had is not even close…not to mention the fact that Bill Walsh and the West Coast offense were built to make a guy like Rice produce at that kind of pace.
Second: Imagine Jerry Rice on the Eagles and Vikings between 87 and 01. He would not have matched Carter’s stats. I promise you that. On a lesser team, without an offense that basically made him wide open all the time (it went both ways, the WCO was perfect for Jerry, Jerry was a perfect fit for the WCO), do you think Rice could have forced the kind of production that Carter did? Carter could make catches that Rice couldn’t, and because of that, he is the kind of guy you could put on a bad team and he would still produce, because he makes plays happen even when there is nothing there.
For example, Randall Cunningham was not exactly a great passer in 1988 or 1989. He could not have gotten the best out of Rice the way Montana did. At the same time, Carter was still able to make a lot of plays with Cunningham, because Randall could just throw it up to Carter and know he would come down with it.
In a way it is like the Emmitt Smith v. Barry Sanders debate.
In a way it is like the Emmitt Smith v. Barry Sanders debate.
Exactly. I’m not trying to take anything away from Rice, and I’m not trying to start something with TSSC, but deciding who is the best at certain position isn’t as black and white as some make it seem. There’s more variables than just TD stats. :)
These are better arguments.
Or maybe I’m just understanding your point of view a little more than I did before. Beyond numbers, I think the best evidence that Rice was a better WR than Carter is the fact that he was more productive than Carter both early in their careers and late in their careers. That ties back in to the longevity argument again, I suppose, but I think it’s significant.
What begins in fear usually ends in folly.
by Ted Simmons Speed Camp on Feb 9, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
always thought
I always thought NFL Films or somebody should produce a video of just Cris Carter catching passes. It would do well even as a DVD.
Most of it should just be Carter making catch after spectacular catch.
Then there should be a second part with all of the amazing catches he almost made—or were ruled incompletions despite the rules at that time. Those almost-catches were impressive in their own right.
In my opinion Cris Carter was the most acrobatic receiver to ever play the game. He pioneered the unstoppable “throw it out-of bounds to where only Cris Carter can catch it” play that he executed many times to perfection, often for a first down.
It is great to see John Randle receive the recognition he deserves.
Irvin won 3 Super Bowls and deserves to be in before Carter.
Other than that he should be in. If CC won just one SB he probably would have been 1st ballot, but rings matter.
I am a little suprised Randle got in before CC.
Hard one(loss) to swallow, thats what she said.
I disagree
Just because a player won X amount of Super Bowls during their career isn’t a testament to their greatness. It just shows that they played on great teams.
That an organization so worried about their public image like the NFL even let Michael “The Coke Machine” Irvin be enshrined into the Hall of Fame still kind of boggles my mind.
The Minnesota Vikings - Undefeated in the Playoffs at Lambeau Field!
The fact is
Having a great running game in Emmit made them better but didn’t pad up his stats. It was a team effort and Irvin would make every clutch catch out there while constantly being double teamed. The Cowboys had no #2 WR, they didn’t need one. Irvin was that good.
Anything inside the 10yard line was Emmit’s so the lack of TDs is due to Smith being the all-time TD leader.
I think Irvin will take the 3 rings and team success over padding his personal stats. He was the #1WR target on one of the best dynasties the NFL has ever had. Carter also played 15 seasons while Irvin played 11 so his all time stats look better. If the Vikes had a dominant run in 1995 Carter never would have had 17TDs in a season.
It isn’t X amount of SB’s that gets you in, its being one of the best at your position on a team that wins the ultimate prize. If you just have the stats without the ring(s) your going to have to wait a bit.
Hard one(loss) to swallow, thats what she said.
Except that
Irvin wasn’t any where near as good a wide receiver as Cris Carter. There are a lot of guys who played on all three of those Super Bowl teams. I think the only position where Super Bowls hold that kind of sway should be QB…Without Michael Irvin those teams still probably win the Super Bowl.
Cris Carter is probably the second best player at his position ever…that sounds like first ballot to me. And if not first, then def. second…
+80
HOF should reflect Individual accomplishments, not super bowls.
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
About Carter
Cris Carter absolutely deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. That they keep inducting some of these schlubs ahead of him is pretty frustrating.
But that being said, acrobatic catch after acrobatic catch aside, Carter was a bit of an ass. The person with the highest opinion of Cris Carter, is Cris Carter. I can still see him on the sidelines during the 2001 season completely going off on Daunte Culpepper and it happened more than once. Of all the great catches he made, my favorite memory of Cris Carter is of him on the sidelines with Miami telling his teammates that there was no way Gary Anderson can make that field goal. Then Anderson kicked the field goal. The look on Carter’s face was priceless.
I can’t help but think that he’s not getting into the Hall of Fame just yet because they don’t want him in the Hall of Fame just yet. I think they’re just making him sweat.
In fact, I hope Chris Doleman makes it in first. He’s pretty deserving himself.
The Minnesota Vikings - Undefeated in the Playoffs at Lambeau Field!
+1
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
I cannot believe that none of the Saints
have stated that they must play better this week to win. That they were fortunate to have beat the Vikes with the yardage they allowed and half the TOs handed to them. They must realize the chance of the Colts turning the ball over 5 times in non existant and they must play better than last week to even have a chance.
No they think they played great and are deserving to be there even though they half earned their last victorey while the Vikes gave up the rest.
The Colts will give them a wake up call and hopfully let them know they werent the team that was supposed to be there in th 1st place.
Colts31-Aints17
Hard one(loss) to swallow, thats what she said.
Congrats to John Randle!
It’s truly a remarkable story. From his humble beginnings, to being an undersized and undrafted free agent, to the Hall of Fame. This is what America is all about folks. Hard work and the relentless pursuit of your dreams really does pay off.
On another note, I can’t help but throw in my 2 cents about CC not getting in. It’s a shame. I truly believed that he would have been a first ballot HOFer. When he retired, his numbers were second to only one. Maybe the HOF didn’t want to put in # 2 until they put in #1. Maybe they are punishing him for not winning a super bowl. Maybe they are punishing him for his attitude. It’s all a crock.
Let’s not forget that only 2 receivers were ever mentioned in the same breath as Rice when he was playing. Both played for the Vikes, and both had the same sur name: Carter. Now AC’s career never truly garnered HOF discussion because of various factors, most of which were out of his hands (literally and figuratively). But CC did things on the football field that few others, if any, could. I once saw a feature on his offseason workouts in Florida, which are notorious for being brutal. As the show ended, the camera followed CC out to his car. He’s putting his workout bag in the trunk, he looks at his watch, then looks at the camera and says, “It’s now 9 AM and I am finished with today’s workout… Jerry Rice is now getting up for his.” I thought that was awesome. He wasn’t being arrogant. He knew Jerry Rice was the best. He knew that if he wanted to be mentioned in the same sentence as Rice, he had to work while the best was sleeping.
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
CC and Randle
John Randle surprised the NFL by being an undrafted FA who performed at a high level in this league. Now he surprises everyone, not for getting into the HOF, but because he got in before Carter.
It boils down to the lovefest that the NFL has for Jerry Rice. Most of the time he deserves it, but to exclude a WR and TE (Carter and Sharpe) that produced great receiving yards and feats is a shame. Get ready for a Hall of Fame Game that features the 49’ers, who will they play? Dallas?
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