Tomlinson or Westbrook?
So LaDainian Tomlinson, one of the best backs in the history of the NFL, is coming to Minnesota for a visit tomorrow. If things work out Tomlinson could be a Viking by the weekend, officially putting some much needed ‘holy crap!’ effect into the Vikings off-season. It’s a given that the Vikings need to find a replacement for Chester Taylor, now a member of the Flying Cutlers Chicago Bears, and here at DN, and Viking fandom in general, we’ve focused on two free agents widely considered the be the two top guys to do that: the aforementioned Mr. Tomlinson, and Brian Westbrook, the mayor of Concussionville, PA. For the uninformed, Concussionville is right down the road from Margaritaville, which is arguably a suburb of Paternoville. Anyhow, I want to take the next few minutes comparing Westbrook and Tomlinson, and try to deduce which guy might be the best fit for the Vikings. After the jump, of course.
Player Westbrook Tomlinson Years 8 9 Games 128 144 Games Played 107 141 % Games Played 83.5 98 Rush attempts 1,308 2,880 Rush yards 5,995 12,490 Rush average 4.6 4.3 Receptions 426 530 Receiving Yards 3,790 3,995 Receiving Average 8.9 7.7 Rush TD 71 138 Rec TD 29 15 Age 31 31 AV* 15, 9 17,14
*AV is a statistic developed by pro-football-reference.com to determine approximate value, or in other words, a comparative number to see who had the better season. It’s a complicated formula taking just about every factor possible into consideration, but basically, the higher the number, the better the season one guy had over another, comparatively speaking. The values are from 2007 and 2008, as there is no number for either player for the 2009 season. Read about it here. I don’t view it as a be-all, end-all comparison, and neither does the creator. It’s just another measurement, subject for debate and interpretation. A football sabremetric stat, if you will.
I think comparing both the rushing and receiving yardage totals is a bit of a canard. For a good part of LT’s career, he played under Marty Schottenheimer, who makes Brad Childress look exciting and innovative when it comes to calling an offense. Andy Reid, on the other hand, removed the section called ‘running plays’ from the Eagles playbook from 2002-2005. I put the numbers up there though, because they both have impressive bodies of work throughout their careers, and they are worth noting. I look at a few telling stats; rush attempts, average number of yards per rush, and the average number of yards per reception. When looking at those, a few things stand out. For one, it’s pretty much a wash in average yards per carry over the length of their careers, although LT has seen an alarming drop in his rushing average, steadily decreasing from a ridiculous 5.2 in 2006 to 3.8 in ’08, and 3.3 in ‘09. Brian Westbrook has been at or above 4.0 yards per carry his entire career, actually improving from 4.0 in 2008 to 4.5 in 2009. I think that goes to the punishment LT has taken compared to Westbrook—close to 2,900 carries for LT as opposed to 1,300 for BW, or less than half the amount of Tomlinson’s. Ouch. Tomlinson has absorbed a lot more blows than Westbrook, and has a lot of mileage on the tires. There are only a handful of backs that excelled past the age of 30 but neither LT or Brian Westbrook will be asked to be the star of the offense, which is a significant point that was the main argument of the SI column referenced.
Both guys are over 30, and although Tomlinson has taken more punishment than Westbrook, they’ve both got a lot of miles. But when you look a little deeper into the rushing numbers in San Diego last season, no one was particularly effective in running the ball. The other featured back, Darren Sproles, averaged only 3.7 yards per carry, and as a team San Diego was 31st in rushing yards and 32nd in rush yards per attempt. Running backs need to have run blockers in front of them, and a case can be made that Sproles and Tomlinson didn’t.
Finally, injuries must be factored in when making a decision. Westbrook has played in just over 83% of his team’s games throughout his career, and was sidelined for half the season last year due to multiple concussions. Tomlinson, beating and all, has answered the bell 98% of the time, a remarkable number in this day and age. This is where I think the argument weeds itself out. Yes, Brian Westbrook is better catching the ball out of the backfield, but can you count on him to make it through a 16 game schedule? Unfortunately, I think the answer is no, especially when you consider the type of injury he had, the history he has with concussions, and the susceptibility that he will probably get another one. Tomlinson will be a constant in the backfield, and since he won’t be the focal point of the offense, less wear and tear on his body could mean more productivity in terms of average yards per play.
There have been some notable exceptions to the ‘over 30 rule’ for NFL running backs. Ricky Williams of Miami had a very productive 2009 season while splitting time with Ronnie Brown, as did Thomas Jones of the Jets. Larry Johnson, though, seems to be the best comparison to Tomlinson in terms of punishment and then use by a new team, albeit a very small sample size. If anyone has any other comparisons, I'd love to see them. When signed by Cincinnati, Johnson, who absorbed a pounding similar to Tomlinson from 2005-2006, and has more of an injury history, was pretty much considered washed up. In Kansas City his numbers were fairly atrocious from 2007 through the time of his release, but again, he was asked to be the focal point of the offense. When he came to Cincinnati, he averaged 4.4 yards a carry over 7 games, not bad at all. When used situationally, he was effective.
Is it a given that either Tomlinson or Westbrook will be signed by Minnesota? No. But they do need to replace Chester Taylor, and between the two, I think LaDainian Tomlinson, if used situationally, will be the better choice.
0 recs |
56 comments
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Comments
LT
Not that I don’t think that BW couldn’t do the job… but his history of Concussions worries me.
I think they are a liability as this is a ‘hitting’ game.
Tomorrow will be an interesting day!
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Mar 10, 2010 1:41 PM CST reply actions
Ditto!
I kind of liked the idea of Westbrook but I don’t think LT has the wear and tear on him. Yes, he is aging and slowed a bit but i think LT will know what he has to do and provides that ability to make a burst out of a short pass. He will still have enough to bust open some runs especially since he won’t be the only RB to focus on.
It is worth the gamble if the price is right. There are certainly worse RB’s out there. LT may find the new environment to be something that lights a new fire under him. If so, the WOW factor could be incredible. He’ll get his yards on the ground bu tyou might see him produce a lot more from screens and outlet passes. Either way, LT will keep defenses on their toes. He still has the ability to break out with a great game. Maybe at a time when AD is struggling.
I hope he signs. I gotta say it would be a sigh of relief as far as replacing Chester.
by CitrusFLViking on Mar 10, 2010 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
That’s the bottom line. A guy can’t rack up yardage by running, or receiving, if he’s on his back with the little birdies flying in circles around his head.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Great points
Injuries and concussions are the main reasons I would not want Westbrook on this team. How can you count on a guy that is on the injury report every week? Westbrook is a great player, but if I had to choose between signing him or drafting a young player, I would go with the young player.
LT on the other hand still has some tread on the tires in my opinion. Also, if AD can’t fix his butter fingers, LT is a trust worthy back that does not turn the ball over. Lastly, I think AD could learn a thing or two from LT, whether that be patients as a runner or how to take care of your body. Both have been chronicled strengths of LT’s game for a long time.
by JRockItsAllGood on Mar 10, 2010 1:44 PM CST reply actions
Not sure I agree with the premise
But they do need to replace Chester Taylor,
I’m not sure ,as any Viking fan, how ready Ian Johnson and Albert Young are. My belief is that if they were not ready we simply would have paid Chester. He got some guaranteed money but his salary from the Bears wasn’t outrageous. If that is true why even interview LT? Because he is LT. You would be remiss not bringing him in. Just in case.
It just appears to me that the Vikings are going about their business this year looking to the present with what they have. (resign Sapp). Looking to the future with the draft. And not trying to tamper with team chemistry more than neccessary.
I will never believe it is worth it to bring in older players( especially RBs) that have proven they have diminishing skills and/or injury histories.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
The problem with Chester was not money.
It was playing time.
He thinks that he can be a NFL starter and wanted to get his chance to do so.
"Last season, we knocked on the door. Next season, we’re kicking it down."
SKÖL VIKINGS!
SHOW YOUR HORNS!
And given his first season here
with over 1200 yards, I think he could be an honest starter, just wish it wasnt in our division. AHHHHHHH
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"You men are only risking your lives, while I am risking an almost-certain Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor!"
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Mar 10, 2010 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
He really wasn't that effective
Only 5 of 15 starts with 4.0+ yards per carry in 2006. 243 single-season rushers gained more yards than Chester Taylor that year. He is not that irreplaceable.
Um
Only started 5 games? Try 15 games, missing one. Never said he was the greatest and never will, but 15 games, 1200+ yards, not too bad when you look at some of the over paid RB’s you see now.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"You men are only risking your lives, while I am risking an almost-certain Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor!"
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Mar 10, 2010 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
He didn't say he only started 5 games
5 of 15 starts with 4.0+ yards per carry in 2006
He said in only 5 of his starts he had better than a 4.0
I love Twins Baseball and Minnesota Vikings Football.
by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Mar 10, 2010 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
He is going to beat out Forte? Maybe but maybe not.
I have to believe that the Vikes simply gave Chester a number they felt he was worth going forward. This is what we are willing to do in the last few years of your contract. Chicago offered him more. Now maybe it was playing time but Chester has been making 3 Mil per year for 4 years. He found a team that was willing to pay hm 2 Mil per year for 4 years- Guaranteed! I bet it was the money. I don’t blame him. I would have left also.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Mar 10, 2010 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
Forte
…has produced less than 4.0+ ypc in 2 seasons now. The Bears are right to look for other options. Maybe a shared load between the two will have positive results.
Well that’s because Forte’s also used for recieving plays. Whenever talking about the Bears, my friends would always go
Friend 1: “Forte is a good running back”
Friend 2: “He’s also their best reciever”
Cheers, Complaints, homerism and bashing of mediocre pop musicians in 140 Characters
"DO NOT get stuck behind Kyle Wellwood in the buffet line. This isn't really etiquette, but it will prevent you from starving to death"- Down Goes Brown on Etiquette for Jason Spezza's wedding
by Kevin Sellathamby on Mar 10, 2010 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
Your friends were right
He’s an ok RB and probably the best receiver on a bad team. It doesn’t mean that he’s necessarily starting material in the NFL, though.
What does any of that have to do with his ypc? Take a look at Westbrook. He has never produced less than 4.0 ypc in a season.
When Westbrook has played
and not been injured or had concussions
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"You men are only risking your lives, while I am risking an almost-certain Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor!"
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Mar 10, 2010 6:50 PM CST up reply actions
Out of his 8 years...
Westbrook has only rushed for over 1000yards twice. His carries are also low. If he averaged 20 carries per game his average would drop. 233 rush attempts in 08-09 and an average of 4.0 shows a decline.
61 carries isn’t enough to make the 4.5 average this past season mean anything. Maybe he does have something left, but one more hard hit to the head and his career is over.
STRIKE 1.
Duece who?
Oh yeah it took me a 2nd to remember a mediocre past RB.
One power slam from Brock and Mir might be dead. He better watch his words. He'll be eating them soon.
Got a reference on that?
VikingTW11 On Chester Taylor;
He thinks that he can be a NFL starter and wanted to get his chance to do so.
I’m not calling you a liar, I’ve read the same thing repeated on this blog a thousand times, and in the newsrags as well.
But I’ve never seen a quote where Chester Taylor indicated that this was the case. It’s not an unreasonable assumption, but I’m asking the question; is it anywhere based on fact, or is it just pulled out of the media’s collective derrier?
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
I voted for other
I would go with Albert Young and I would try and draft Ben Tate.
I would then take the 3 mil plus you know LT will want and give it to Edwards plus some more.
Would that be the same Ray Edwards
you have being traded in every mock draft you’ve posted? ;)
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
This is about the next Roger Craig or Amp Lee
Not the 9ers Roger Craig, but the one who was a great 3rd down back for us in the 90s.
I voted for Westbrook just because he seems to have been that kind of back whereas LT2 is likely to have more wear and tear from taking so many more handoffs.
Small discrepancy: In 2002-2003, PHI had a top 10 running game.
Makes you wonder
As a Chiefs fan, I wonder why a guy like Thomas Jones wouldn’t have ended up in Minni. He’s not going to be the featured back in KC, he’s not playing for a contender, and his salary was only $5M for 2 years which is probably the ballpark for Westbrook and LT.
I’m glad he is in KC, but I did ya’ll even give him a look?
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Mar 10, 2010 2:38 PM CST reply actions
No, for two reasons
1. The Vikes don’t need another between the tackles guy, like Jones. He only caught 10 passes last year, not something that boosts your ‘third down back who can catch a pass’ resume.
2. It was Thomas Jones who blasted Favre after he left the Jets, saying that he wasn’t a team guy and dressed in a separate area from the rest of the team. When you’re trying to convince Favre to come back, adding Jones isn’t the best of moves, especially when there are other viable options out there.
"We're used to Favre-a-palooza now. We're engulfed in Favre-a-palooza. It's not even Favre-a-palooza anymore. He's family now."
--Vikings TE Visanthe Shiancoe, on Brett Favre
by Ted Glover on Mar 10, 2010 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I voted other
as well. Give Albert Young and/or Ian Johnson some carries and we’ll be fine. Percy can get some more touches as well.
I kind of agree....
….but the coaching staff probably didn’t feel they’re ready yet. And they would know better than us. And finally, based on their above average acquisitions and drafts in recent years I trust their decision on this one.
Have to bring in a 3rd option
There’s nothing wrong with carrying 3 or 4 RB’s into camp, just like we always invariably have 14 WR’s on hand. I would imagine we take on a guy like LT, bring back one of the two younglin’s (or both), and reach for a physical freak at the end of the draft. Perhaps a littler-known guy or someone who has fallen. I don’t think with what we have tied up in ADP and Harvin that we really need to blast higher than a 4th rounder on an RB until maybe 4 or 5 years from now (barring injury, knock on wood).
both
what does LT, westbrook, and peppers all have in common ? they are all 30 and they have all struggled thru injury to be at the top of there game. peppers makes 15mil. and bears fans think he will dominate for years. we want a fill in for 10 plays a game and some clowns worry about are these two backs still pro bowl ready ? stop it if they pass a physical the day brett shows up to camp i’d take both!!!!!!!!!!
screw it...
We don’t need WR’s either. Let’s just stack the team with RB’s and Harvin and run wild cat all year!!
Why even bother comparing??
The risk-level with Westbrook is too high.
He is one hit away from a concussion.
His knees are so abused that he can’t even practice on turf. — I’m sure his knees would take a beating on the home game days if he was playing for Minnesota.
The front office would be fools to chase after him.
LT is probably a decent option since he is comparable to Westbrook… Experienced, and probably used for 3rd down conversions.
I would not be shocked if we come to find he is signed tomorrow.
Leon Washington
Once he is healthy he is the best fit!
LT still has it
there’s still plenty of gas left in the tank for LT for what this team needs from him. Childress has down played the mentor role for Peterson, but there’s no question a guy like LT and his work ethic can only help AP become a better rusher and less of a liability. LT’s not the dominating player he used to be, but he is a tremendous all around athlete and a dangerous offensive weapon. Add him to the long list of other weapons on this offense and you’ve got and even more dangerous team going into 2010.
None of this will mean anything unless #4 is taking snaps next year.
Signing LT
Will go along way in getting Favre to come back imo. If he see’s the team improve, it will make his decision that much easier.
I voted other
1. I don’t trust Westbrook’s health.
2. I don’t trust LT’s willingness to accept a backup role and the worn out body.
3. I think in-house or Justin Fargas is the answer. Draft other positions.
This sounds vaguely sane...
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Well I will say this most free agents hitting a new offense don't go out and have great years
90% of them actually have average to crappy years. So with this in mind I don’t think we’ll see wonderment out of LT or WB. However, I’m not sure why we’re even discussing Westbrook as he has stated he doesn’t want to play for a team with turf. As well he’s a helmet shot from vegetableville. Don’t think we need the moniker ‘Vikings where players go to die’
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
LT is synonymous with playoff collapses
Plus, I wouldn’t think a Viking’s team that showed excellent chemistry all year would introduce a pouting me-first player into the mix.
EGO
Will LT be able to put his ego in the backseat and accept his role as receiving back and 3rd down back? He bragged last year that he was still the man and not Adrian Peterson. How much of that was just bogus self promotion and how much does he truly believe.
He was 600 yards behind in rushing. Plus, I couldn’t believe it until I looked it up but AP had more passes/yards (43-436 to 41-415) .
Maybe, maybe not
But perhaps LT will realize this may be his best chance at winning it all. Most other contenders already have a back-up they are sticking with, we just lost ours. Only starting gig he may find is with a team far from playoff contention right now. I may be wrong, but what Im thinking at the moment.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"You men are only risking your lives, while I am risking an almost-certain Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor!"
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
by VikesFaninNM on Mar 10, 2010 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
back up
man guys forget about the running back. we better get somebody to block for them!! run blocking has been bad for 2 yrs. trust me that will get farve back here quicker than getting a good 2nd string rb.
Unless LT's role is...
Designated non-fumbler, I really don’t get the interest in him. He offers nothing that AD doesn’t already have, except a better history of holding onto the ball.
If we want someone to fill the role Chester did, Westbrook is a far better fit. That being said, I agree with the concerns about his health. I think we could do just as well in house or through the draft in filling this need.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
I've heard reports
That Westbrook’s concussion situation isn’t as serious as once thought. If he can take a few hits without getting injured he would be an amazing fit. Still feels like a big ’if".
One power slam from Brock and Mir might be dead. He better watch his words. He'll be eating them soon.
No to Westbrook
And that has nothing to do with his ability to play, I just don’t want the Vikings to be the team that he was knocked out for good playing for. I don’t want that type of attention for our team. With all that has happened in recent years with players and concussions, shouldn’t someone in Westbrook’s camp be telling him that he needs to call it a great career but sit down while you can in full health. IMHO
Other
It sounds like the Bengals are letting Larry Johnson test free agency which means Minni could get him and with the blocking up front likely have him preform like he did in Cinci the last part of last year, Justin Fargas was also released by the raiders because they likely don’t want to pay for his roster bonus though he was at 30 the best RB they had with that probably being their only position with depth.
I think LT would be a good choice, but I’m wary of the aged veteran syndrome and it’s effect on the team. That said, LT is a pretty classy guy compared to Larry Johnson and many others. Westbrook is a great back, but the concussions are too much of a concern. Honestly, we shouldn’t have let Chester go and certainly not to Chicago. Ouch! That didn’t go well. There’s someone out there that might fit the bill. Are there any good RB draft prospects? I don’t follow much college ball……
LT may go to the Jets because
Green just came on the end of last year and is nowhere near as established as Peterson. LT would get more carries there and could defenitly be out there for most 3rd down situations. The Jets would also be willing to pay what the Vikes will or more. At this point though it is about LT wanting to win a title, but with a significant role.
I believe that the Vikes are a better team than the Jets, but they do play on grass which LT is use to and they know who their QB is going to be next season. I think the Jets were a flash in the pan last year and probably wont make the playoffs this year. A guy like Rex will breath new life into a team his first season then his act will wear thin the second. They have a good O-line and pass D, but their lack of explosive plays will catch up to them. Edwards is not a guy I would like to call a #1 reciever but his is theirs.
The Vikes are a deeper team and so long as LT feels Favre is coming back he should come to Minny. If Favre said he was coming back already this would be a done deal. He could have a bit bigger role in NY, but has a better chance at a ring in Minny(Favre pending). I’m not quite sure what he is going to do anymore. I hope we see him in purple!
STRIKE 1.
"they do play on grass", sorry will play on grass.
One power slam from Brock and Mir might be dead. He better watch his words. He'll be eating them soon.
outsiders take...
I don’t want ANYTHING to do with Westbrook…I don’t want to be the guy employing him when he gets that final concussion that changes his standard of life. This guy needs to walk away thankful he still can!
With LT, honestly I think you guys could get AS good of production from a rookie in the mid rounds as you could with LT at this stage. I would have some concerns about LT being able to be second fiddle. I don’t buy this 1 and 1A bull either…Peterson is going to be the guy and LT is going to be the Chester Taylor guy. Either way, I think its a step back for the Vikes but if they draft someone at least its a step back looking to the future.
LT is reportedly to sign with the Jets
Which is a good thing. Tomlinson, being a former superstar himself, could be a distraction to the Vikings. Hes has made public comments he does not have a lot of respect for Adrian Peterson.





















