Teams Eyeing Ray Edwards?
by jianfu on Mar 11, 2010 10:26 PM CST
71 comments
Hat tip to Mike Florio. The Eagles and the Saints might consider making a run for Ray Edwards. For those of you keeping track, the Eagles own pick #24 and the Saints #32 (ugh).
Unless some team goes crazy I'd expect the Vikings would probably match. Unless the ole poison pill worm turns against the team this time...
Maybe Brian Robison (or Rookie X) could get 6-10 sacks matching up one-on-one with right tackles, or maybe not. And depth is always an issue. Edwards is actually younger than Robison, too. Edwards is probably beginning his peak years, as he just turned 26.
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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interesting
KC wanted robison during the jared trade. they all love the purple. the triangle wont fall for a 2nd rd trade. and for the curious one year service of mcnabb isn’t going to happen either.
Let him go.
You put anyone on the left side of the vikes line and they should be productive…Jared Allen = Double Team, Kevin Williams = Double Team, Pat Williams = Double Team (sometimes), Ray Edwards = One on One Matchup. By all accounts he should have had as much, if not more sacks than The Mullet Mlitia. Stick Robison on that side or draft a replacement in the later rounds of the draft. A second 1st rounder could go a long way with the way the Vikes have been drafting these past couple years, and with this draft class being as deep as it is this year…I say let him go while the going is good.
He will get dealt for a second and a later pick or a first next year IMO
I have been including the trade of Ray Edwards in all of my mocks because I do not think the Vikings want to keep him that bad. I also do not believe they will match any offer as they are more interested in the pick. It just makes no sense no matter how you slice it.
I see him getting somewhere between 6 to 8 mil per year. I think he will get slightly more than Kampman and Vanden Bosch just received. I think it will be around 4 years 28 mil with some Pro Bowl and other incentives.
I think this is too steep for the Vikings and why they “dangled” him out there.
The Vikings could use that first round pick with #30 to move up and try and get Bradford or Clausen. I hope not but it is a possibility. They may need to add something else.
According to published value charts, packaging the 24th and 30th pick could get the Vikings into 8th or 9th pick range. Although I agree with you on the QBs; I’m not terribly crazy about either. I’d like Bradford, but he’ll be gone before then it seems, and even then…there’s just a big time risk with underclassman QBs.
If it came to this I think I’d just use the picks. Or acquire a first rounder next year, when the QB crop might be more bountiful.
Edwards is one of the top defensive ends in football. What we should do is offer him a long term deal.
Barring that, we should get at least a first-rounder for him.
by medicineball on Mar 12, 2010 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
well I would say that selling out starters on a team that almost hit the Super bowl
Seems amazingly short sighted. As well, losing a lot of people and not replacing them is not going to get Favre thinking we’re serious about getting back to the super bowl this year.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
"well I would say that selling out starters on a team that almost hit the Super bowl "
Not if you ask the Bears of 2006. HEYOOO
by Jepp The Viking on Mar 12, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Edwards
No other DE has 3 mates on the D-line to boost his stats as much as Edwards has had for 2 seasons in a row. He finally stepped up his production in 2009, but let’s not get carried away and lose sight of the fact that any DE plugged into the Vikings’ D-line will have the same benefit of talent surrounding him and enjoy being a product of the system. It would be unwise to sign Edwards to a long-term deal for finally having a few good games in 2009.
That extra first would really help.
We need an OL, a DT, a DB. I think Robison and Jayme Mitchell can fill in for Ray without any significant dropoff in production.
Lot of hope in that statement.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Sign Ray Edwards! Or we have to draft somebody
We should sign Edwards long-term. But let’s think about the alternatives. This is all just talk.
Even if Robison can start at left defensive end and do well, we still need a backup for him. Unless that guy is Jayme Mitchell or Tremaine Johnson, both already on the team, we would need to draft somebody.
Now let’s consider an alternative. We could switch Jared Allen to left defensive end and play Brian Robison at right defensive end. The thing is, the main responsibility of left defensive end is stopping the run. If that was Jared Allen’s main responsibility, that would be a waste of his talent and gifts. This might work but only if used only occasionally to throw off the offense.
#69 The Wall #96
Robison has done well when he’s had an opportunity.
Didn't really see him on running downs.
until I see that I would be leary of this.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
You didn't see him on running downs
because they used him as an extra pass-rusher. He can get around the tackles though. He beat JA to the QB quite a few times when he was playing. Besides, we have LBs for a reason. They should be able to tackle the RB if he does get past the outside of the line.
well they are important to contain the RB.
Jared does a terrible job of this. I don’t know if we want to let every one run five yards to the outside of us on every down. I do know he was brought in on pass rushing situations which gave him quite a few sacks (and took some from Ray I’m sure). However, we do need people on the line that are capable of stopping the run. having one weak link as acceptable you can scheme to cover that known whole. Having two weak spots, well now your goign to scheme oyurself out of having your LB’s covering the outside pass routes or the interior.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I'm sure all you saw
was Pat. It’s understandable…
No joke
pat is fat..
But still, seemed like a fat joke.. :)
Designed to make ppl LOL…
Except for fat people
maybe, but hey if you can’t laugh at yourself…
Denial
That is one of the steps some of you guys are stuck in. It is clear and your tune wont change. It’s all good though. I understand some of you do not want to see any change to the team whatsoever. I am not even sure you would want any of the draft picks to make the team. I don’t know how that will happen but I cannot convince any one of anything.
All I know is that they have not given the young man that some of you are pumping up as a pretty good LDE (up and coming, just reaching his peak, etc) a new contract yet.
Plain and simple.
They wont do that with Rice or Greenway. I fully expect both of them to get new deals during the year. They will not allow either to become a UFA because they do not want to lose them obviously but also they want to reward them for their good play.
Where is Ray’s reward? I don’t understand how some people cannot see this?
You can talk all you want about they do not know what his value is or that he has to “prove himself this year to earn that new contract” (when he just did that in the last year of his deal) or that under the rules of the CBA and the uncapped year they are only doing what many other teams are doing or whatever.
It is all BS! I know it and you know it and Ray knows it.
You do not treat a player of Rays caliber that way. Wilf has already said money is not an obstacle so why not give Ray his?
They will be lucky to get a first round pick for Ray. The first round tender is the starting point of the negotiations. I would not be surprised if a deal is already in place with Philly. Chilly and Reid go way back. Philly passed on trying to get Kampman or Vanden Bosch. They did so for a reason. The only hold up now is if another team wants to give up more than Philly. I would be surprised if they dealt him to New Orleans. They will have to sign him to a deal and we would have to match. We will pass.
Mark, do you think Ray Edwards should be extended by the Vikings or not? You’ve never said.
by medicineball on Mar 12, 2010 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
I only said what I thought they were going to do based on the tender, etc.
I would NOT sign him to an extension because of the salary cap and the fact they have to give Rice, Greenway, & AP new deals. With Allen & KWill making as much as they do that would be too much against the salary cap for the the defensive line. Also, I think that because Robison will be a UFA next year they want to see if he can hold up (something many here have reservations about) before giving him a new deal. I think Mitchell is up too. Lastly, I think he has been inconsistent and they are unsure if he really is an elite DE.
I like him but his value in a draft pick is valuable to the Vikings and if they cannot meet his demands which I think is part of this too, then they should get a pick or two in exchange. It is only good football business and good for the team.
We may suffer but I have faith in Robison and Mitchell and I have a feeling we may get Greg Hardy in the 3rd round because his stock is falling. Once he gets a coach to light a fire under him then he may turn into the first round pick that he should have been.
To me, it looks like you will get your wish. If we can’t keep him, we need at least a first rounder, nothing less.
I hope it works out.
by medicineball on Mar 12, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
Not denial at all. Just a realistic assessment of the facts.
Prior to the RFA tenders coming out I thought that Ray should have been given our highest tender and resigned as quickly as possible. If I recall correctly, you thought he should be traded as he wasn’t worth paying a high salary. The Vikings chose to give Ray a first round tender and to you, this has sent a signal that the Vikes want to trade Ray.
Your second point of emphasis is that since a new deal has not been reached with Ray this shows the Vikes either can’t get a deal done or don’t wish to get a deal done.
I simply don’t agree with your assessment for several reasons.
1) So far no team has offered anyone a first round pick for any 1st round tender. The 1st round pick seems to be a valid deterrent to teams taking other teams RFAs.
2) No team has traded a player that has any tender on them. Historically RFAs are not actively traded.
3) The Vikings have said they intend on having all 22 starters back.
4) Negotiations are a two way street. It could be that the Vikes and Ray honestly disagree on his contract value and both sides will use the process to come together on a new contract.
All that being said I can understand why the Vikes value a first round pick as much as Ray. Especially if that can be used to upgrade a QB situation. I don’t see taking less in a trade than the Tender placed on Ray. To me that argument doesn’t hold water. Even if Ray played out his final year and then became a UFA it could be worth more to the Vikings than a second round pick.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Mar 12, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Good points
I could be totally wrong and I will admit it now.
As far as teams not entering the RFA market yet, I think it will begin soon. But it may not be all that active as you stated. With an uncapped year it will be difficult to put a “posion pill” in any contract because teams can easily match and even rework the deal after matching.
I will still maintain that some teams placed lower than expected tenders on certain players because they want another team to take them (ala Ray Edwards IMO). And I do believe they will negotiate a trade rather than matching or not matching an offer.
The last sentence though is interesting in that you would be willing to get one more year of play out of Ray and then let him go even if he plays for less than his value and could suffer a career ending injury.
I now see where you are coming from and that you are only interested in the Vikings winning. Players be damned. I am not.
Ray deserves to get paid. Whether they can agree on his value or not does not take away from the fact that he is worth more than 2.5 mil (in the NFL).
The only way I can see your last sentence working is with some type of compromise. I think that if the Vikings were to do that then they should at least give hiim a one year deal of 5 mil with the hopes to signing a new long term deal.
If they did, it would show good faith on their part and then Ray can determine his own fate.
Yes, I have previously said that also.
In a previous post I said that good labor relations can be accomplished even in a year of labor turmoil. I suggested then that a unilateral one year raise may be a way of gaining the respect of the player and allow long term negotiations to continue. I have no idea what that value would be. Certainly Ray is looking for a long term deal with guaranteed money. I have to believe the Vikings know what kind of player he is and what he is worth long term to the team.
But my point in the above post wasn’t about using Ray. I was saying that one year on the playing field might be valued as highly as a second round pick. To a team like the Vikes in a “win now” mode the value of a player playing is sometimes overlooked.
Lets hope this all works out in the long run with the Vikes and Ray together.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Mar 12, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
Please explain
“With an uncapped year it will be difficult to put a "posion pill" in any contract because teams can easily match and even rework the deal after matching.”
What is the difference between an uncapped year and a capped year when it comes to putting in a poison pill? It seems to me that, for instance, the Burleson poison pill was effective for the single reason that there was verbage in the contract relating to max amounts of games being played in the metrodome or something stupid like that, and not anything to do with contract money (or the cap). And in that case the vikings couldn’t “match” the contract and turn around and re-write it , otherwise it wouldn’t really be an effective poison pill. So, is there a difference this year? That would seem odd to me if a team could do what you are suggesting.
by footballninja on Mar 12, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
Here is what I believe he meant.
when a team has a right to match an offer it is accomplished in this manner. A new team submits an offer sheet to the old team comprising of all the major terms of the contracts. They old team has X amount of days to match the offer. Not every single term of a contract must be matched. Just the “major” terms such as length, amount, signing bonus, ect. Most poison pill provisions in the past have been signing bonus’s and salaries that put the matching team “over the cap”, thus eliminating their ability to match. This year with no cap the standard poison pill isn’t available. The League disapproves of poison pill provisions and is likely to strike down “metrodome” provisions that you refer to.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Mar 12, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
So he “deserves to get paid” meaning he is good but the Vikings should not pay him?
Mark, you keep playing the Ray Edwards situation two ways. Just say whether you want Ray Edwards on the Vikings or not.
by medicineball on Mar 12, 2010 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
I do NOT want him on the Vikings if they are not going to pay him what he is worth.
I am looking at the situation as I see it. Doesn’t mean I’’m right or you are wrong.
How is that for straddling the fence?
But it is the truth. If they do not pay him this year he will walk next year IMO. And I would not put any money on the Vikings slapping him with the franchise or transition tag after next year.
So, if they do not want to pay him what he is worth then I do NOT want him on the Vikings. I want to get some picks for him now rather than wait until after 2011 and hope we get a compensatory pick which I doubt since next year’s free agent class will be HUGE.
I know you like him and want him on the team. That is cool.
But I do not want any player to be low balled. It is bad for the image of the team IMO and may affect free agents coming here in the future IMO.
You’re talking about setting a precedence in an environment with an expiring CBA. To my knowledge, no team has ever extended such an olive branch ‘in good faith’. Teams quite often hold players hostage in one year contracts via the optional tags available to them. This is not a negative. It is the rules, the agreed to rules of FA.
I (and many others) support the players, but not to the detriment or disadvantage of the Vikings. Ray Edwards may leave and Brett Favre and a slew of other players may come, but the Vikings are the constant. I think your sense of loyalty to specific players is more out of the norm than vice versa. In a perfect world (that is a season full of performances versus the Cowboys) I want Edwards as a Viking. In the meantime the Vikings hold all the leverage and should bargain likewise.
Doesn't mean anything.
And this precedent will probably never happen again. Ray has played four years and his contract has expired. Because of the CBA he now finds himself a RFA instead of a UFA. It was bargained by players prior to Ray joining the league and he has to deal with it. Does not make it fair to him. This will not be allowed to happen again IMO and it could become a sticking point in the negotiations for a new CBA.
You are right in that some ‘teams’ do hold a player hostage. I just don’t want the Vikings to do that. They should be above that. That is the precedent that should be set. That will elevate the Vikings franchise in the eyes of players around the league IMO. They will see us as an organization that will treat their players right no matter the circumstances. Just because you can hold somebody down doesn’t mean you should.
And all of the Edwards defenders cannot give me one reason why they have not done a new deal besides he may be asking for too much? Well if that is the case then they should try and get something for him now. Hence the first round tender only. Otherwise with an uncapped year it makes no sense for them not to lock him up.
What does everyone think would be a fair offer to Ray?
I think that 4 years at 28 mil with 12 guaranteed with some pro bowl incentives sounds about right.
that does sound about right
and while many people want him back, the fact is we don’t really make the decissions and the people who do actually know a lot more than we do. So when I say that I would like Ray to be a Viking I really would like to see him here next year. However, you do look like your right on this and we’ll either low ball Ray (which would tick me off) or we’ll toss him out to see if he can find something more interesting. Personally I think your right when you say they don’t want to be spending so much of their cap space on the defensive line.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
lets not try and play the bigger fan card
I think it can be easily said we’re all at about the same fever pitch. I mean hell the league has been over for over a month now and most of us come here just as often as we used to when the Vikes were playing every week. Now how we root for our team well that’s a personal belief and I don’t think it’s right to judge another based upon yours. Just because before every game I lather myself up in mayo and sprinkle relish all over myself and you don’t doesn’t make me some kind of way better fan than you are. (although I totally am) it does however make my dog follow me around for the rest of the week.. :p
Seriously though Mark wants the Vikes to be respectful to their players because he wants to follow a team that submits to high ideals and treats people in a way that he deems fair. (personally I would like to work for Mark) You LoveHate seem to want the vikes to do what it takes to get them to the next level (I would want you working for me…)
Anyway enough with the lecture and bad analogies.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
+91 LLV
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
I think you may misunderstand some of us
I don’t think we need to keep the team sacrosant by any means. However, I do think that keeping the core of the team is pretty important, unless you have someone who can step in and play at leasts as well as the player in front of him. Looking back at free agency you don’t see a lot of free agents come into a new team and tear it up. It just doesn’t happen. Teams that chase that dream end up being perrenial runner ups or flat out losers.
Building through the draft however is different. You do have a chance at picking up some fresh new talent. People who expect to learn everything brand new. I don’t think it would be a good idea to have a lot of turn over on this team. However, I do think it’s a good idea to draft as well as possible, because I personally want this team to be in the hunt for superbowls every year not just the next.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
What core?
Ray is the only starter that we are talking about possibly being replaced in this thread. And we are not ones doing it. It is coming from the TOA.
We lost Chester, Hicks, Paymah (although that may not be considered a loss), & probably Kennedy.
I think the “core” is intact.
You wouldn’t take jason Pierre-Paul or Carlos Dunlap or Everson Griffin to replace him if you had to?
Of course. If someone takes Edwards for a first round draft choice
and we “had to take” a player sure. But I don’t think any of those players can step on the field this year and do as good a job as a starter that has put 4 years in our system
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Mar 12, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
I think Ray finally
stepped up this year, but he should have done well considering most of his linemates were double teamed.
Bottom line
Could we get a pure pash rusher of Ray Rays talen’t? Maybe, it would be a good-average D-End in the NFL. But could we get the complete package of run stopping AND pash rushing that Ray is? I highly doubt it.
by Jepp The Viking on Mar 12, 2010 10:53 AM CST reply actions
Agreed
We need to keep Ray Ray, he has been brought up in our system and is starting to flourish, his talent and potential are starting to shine through. It took some adjusting moving over to the left side but now I believe he has it down. We need to lock him up long term.
Brought up in our system. That is so important yet so ondervalued.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Mar 12, 2010 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
He doesn't have to be on the left side.
LDE’s need to be all-around players; play the pass and the run equality well.
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
Was replying to Jepps post.
I guess it depends on what hand the QB throws with as far as what the LDE needs to be.
I guess I have to be undecided on this until we see what if any offers Edwards receives. On the one hand, you just can’t sign everybody and build a perfect team. Can’t be done. OTOH, I’m a big believer in investing heavily at the key positions and recycling elsewhere, and the key positions are QB, LT, DE, and CB.
I actually misstated Edwards age in the post…he just turned 25. Outside of Peppers, en elite type who can probably rack up plays in his sleep (and some think he does), the other big-pay-day DEs so far this offseason—Aaron Kampman and Kyle Vanden Bosch—have some similarities to Edwards. Like Edwards—a 4th round pick—neither Kampman (5th rounder) nor Vanden Bosch (2nd rounder) were considered elite prospects. And both—as is often the case, as not every productive pass rushing steal can be Jared Allen and hit the league running: they took a little bit.
Look at this:
Aaron Kampman:
Age 23- .5 sacks
Age 24- 2 sacks
Age 25- 4.5 sacks
Age 26- 6.5 sacks
Age 27- 15.5 sacks
Age 28- 12 sacks
Age 29- 9.5 sacks
Age 30- 3.5 sacks
Kyle Vanden Bosch:
Age 23- .5 sacks
Age 24- 3.5 sacks
Age 25- injured
Age 26- 0 sacks
Age 27- 12.5 sacks
Age 28- 6.5 sacks
Age 29- 12 sacks
Age 30- 4.5 sacks
Age 31- 3 sacks
And now Edwards:
Age 21- 3 sacks
Age 22- 5 sacks
Age 23- 5 sacks
Age 24- 8.5 sacks
Now, this is a small sample, obviously. But both Kampman and KVB showed the classic DE performance curve with a clear peak between ages 27-29. Edwards is not only still 2 seasons away from the beginning of that period; he’s also showed more aptitude than either at a younger age, even before Jared Allen. But of course, you can’t ignore that Edwards gets one-on-one matchups against RTs.
Again, I guess I’ll sit on the fence until I see what sort of contract we might be talking about.
Re-reading that, just to highlight, both Kampman and KVB had 0.5 sacks their rookie years. I probably should have put the zero in.
I also understand that sacks aren’t the perfect measure for DEs, but it’s how they get paid.
There you have it.
Edwards has to get at least 4 years and 28 mil with some million dollar pro bowl incentives.
And I think (I could be wrong but I have to stick to my position) that the Vikings do NOT want to pay that to him along with what they have to give to KWill and Allen over the next few years.
Kevin Williams Contract
12/23/2006: Signed a five-year, $33.24 million contract. The deal includes $16 million guaranteed and a two-year, $16.76 option available for 2013-2014. 2009: $1 million, 2010: $2.274 million, 2011-2014: $6 million, 2015: Free Agent
Jared Allen Contract
4/23/2008: Signed a six-year, $73.26 million contract. The deal contains $31 million guaranteed, including a $15.5 million signing bonus and a $4 million “signing” bonus in the second year. 2010: $6,380,100 (+ $4 million guaranteed-for-injury roster bonus due 3/1), 2011: $8,979,438, 2012: $11,619,850, 2013: $14,280,612, 2014: Free Agent
And PWill is making about 4.25 mil this year, Evans is tendered for 1.759 mil, Jayme Mitchell will make about 1.1, & Robison and Guion are both making about 500K. Plus we have another DT to sign too (either Kennedy or a rookie).
It adds up to about 19.2 mil including Ray’s tender for the defensive line. By comparison the offensive lines’ salaries add up to about 12 mil not counting any rookies.
I really believe it comes down to money and what he wants.
His skills are on par and will probably get better and we may be kicking ourselves in the future. But the money talks and the rest walks!
The Vikings’ defensive philosophy requires its front four be the playmakers, so I don’t necessarily revolt against the idea of investing a lot there. And PWill will be off the books in a year, probably replaced at one of the DT spots by a cheaper player/rookie. If Edwards follows the typical career arc (and it’s not guaranteed he will by any stretch), he’d be worth that type of deal. And four years would take him through his age 28 season, so he’d still be in his peak, possibly with a double-digit sack season or two under his belt if he keeps trending the right way.
I just don’t think we can overlook how young this guy is. By age 22—an age Kampman and KVB were still matching up against Big 10 OTs—Edwards already had 8 NFL sacks, with no Jared Allen. Neither of those two could claim that many until their ages 26 and 27 seasons, respectively, well over a year than Edwards (with 21.5 sacks so far) is right now ! Even in 2008 when everyone was a little disappointed when he only got 5 sacks when Allen joined the team, he still was amongst the league leaders in hurries, according to football outsiders. Last year he started turning some of those into sacks. His best ball should be ahead of him, if he stays healthy. I still can’t believe he’s only 25.
It should be interesting to see what if any offers are made. I’d much rather have Ray Edwards than KVB or Kampman if we’re talking a similar type deal. But the UFA status, where a team not only must pay a contract but also forfeit a pick, will no doubt suppress any offers. Maybe the Vikings could get a sweet deal, here. Or maybe they’ll have to choke down a poison pill.
Obviously the Vikings have a more informed opinion on him, so time will tell. And Edwards probably didn’t earn many brownie points when he basically said Chilly/Bevell played scared at the end of the NFC championship.
Very compelling evidence
One thing I wonder is who KVB & Kampman were playing alongside?
I wonder if they has the type of line mates (Pro Bowl ones at that) that Edwards has enjoyed the privilege of playing with?
That is the $64,000 question to me and what is probably holding up negotiations and what other teams have to be thinking too.
Is it Ray or KWill & Allen that contribute more to his success?
Nevertheless, he could go to another team that has pretty good teammates as well and succeed there.
The only reason why that they have not signed him IMO is because of the money they have to pay him and all the money already tied up in the dline.
I could be wrong but that makes the most sense to me.
D-Line not paid to much according to average salary around the league.
To use the argument that the Vikes are overpaying the D-Line one would have to look at the make-up of other D-Lines around the league. Detroit is having the same discussion with whether or not they can afford to pay Suh on their line. A good poster on Detroit’s Pride and Mockingthedraft.com, Northleft12 did this study of D-Line pay. Thanks Northleft12.
Here are the comparisons:
Detroit (without Suh)- 15M for ten lineman for 15% of the payroll.
Rams – $14.5M for twelve linemen for 14.5% of the payroll.
Giants – $28M [YOW!] for nine players and 20.3% of the payroll.
Eagles – $9.6M for eight guys for 9.1% of the payroll.
Bengals – $14M for nine linemen for 14.9% of the total pay.
Falcons – $14M for eight linemen for 14.7% of the payroll.
Colts – $18.5M for ten players for 17.9%.
Vikings – $19.2M for nine guys for 19.2% of the payroll.
Raiders – $21.4M for eight linemen for 19.2% of their total pay.
Saints – $19.5M for eight players for 16% of the payroll.
Bears – $23.5M [Without Julius the Great!] for eleven players for 19.5% of their payroll.
Averages Pay = $17.9M for 16.4% of the payroll.
As you can see adding 2 Million per year to Ray’s salary ( for a total of 4 MIL) would only increase the Viking D-Line percentage to 18% of payroll. Not a figure that would scare any successful team. In fact it is exactly in line with Indianapolis.
I think that argument is totally wrong. For whatever reason Ray and the Vikes haven’t come to terms it is not the total paid to the D-Line. If money is the object then I am glad that Philly and the Saints are looking. They are both notoriously cheap and Ray will quickly figure out that the Vikings are a good team to stay with.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
by lifelongvike on Mar 13, 2010 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
That is a good study but when was it done and what year is it based upon?
If it is for the upcoming season then we only have 5 guys under contract (KWill, PWill, Allen, Robison, Mitchell, & Guion) plus two guys tendered (Ray & Evans). We still have to sign another guy I believe (Kennedy or draft pick). But adding money for Edwards should not affect the total as you say.
However, the owners are asking for an 18% reduction off of the total revenue pool before they give the players a percentage (right now it is about 60%). And they want to reduce that as well. So if the study does not include the new salary cap number which nobody knows but is certain to be less than the 127 mil that it was in 2009, then the percentage goes up.
And you have to figure that the TOA is considering Rice, Greenway, & AP as players who need new contracts too. So whatever that money is, it is not in the study.
So while the study was accurate for whatever year it examined, it can no way reflect the upcoming year and future years.
Nevertheless, the percentage probably would not get to more than 22 or 23% (just guessing) and if it is the strength of your team then it probably should account for the largest piece of the pie.
At the end of the day it still comes back to this for me …
If he was so valuable to the Vikings then they would have done whatever it takes to get the deal done by now before his contract expired. And if he is asking for top DE money without making a Pro Bowl, which I doubt, then they need to let him go and get it elsewhere.
It should work out.
Edwards can sign a long-term deal with the Vikings. Result: good.
If Edwards signs an offer sheet elsewhere, probably for a long-term deal, the Vikings can match. Result: good.
If Edwards signs an offer sheet elsewhere, and the Vikings don’t match, the Vikings get a first round draft pick this year. Result: Positive, but not as good as keeping Edwards. At least we have Robison. We’ll see what he’s got.
If Edwards does not sign an offer sheet elsewhere, and starts the season playing on his RFA tender, the Vikings can see how he is playing in the 2010 season, and negotiate with him for a long-term deal. Result: probably good.
I am content and happy. I only wish we could get Robison more playing time, but Edwards appears to be the better option, at least according to last season’s depth chart.
by medicineball on Mar 13, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Vanden Bosch played alongside Albert Haynesworth. Kampman’s best year had Cullen Jenkins and KGB (remember him?) combine for 12.5 sacks from the rush end spot in a platoon and Corey Williams had 7 sacks from the DT spot.
Edwards clearly has an advantage with his teammates. How much to factor that, his age, etc. is anybody’s guess.
I agree with medicineball that whatever happens the Vikings are in good shape here. With Edwards’s UFA status, his contract offers from outside the organization will be limited because a team must surrender a first round selection on top of a contract; that’s going to limit action and offer amounts. So if Edwards signs that, maybe they’ve got him for a not-outrageous contract.
Or, if a team goes nuts and offers him too much, they pocket a nice draft pick.
And if nothing happens, they get their DE back and can wait and see in the meantime.
Edwards will never be an elite defensive end, nor will he be Robert Mathis to Jared Allen’s Dwight Freeney, but it’s not out of the question he could be close putting together a real solid run as a 10-sack type base end. Guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
Edwards has been a very good player at a young age for the Vikings. He doesn’t get injured. He just plays hard and does his job well. He has matured from his early days.
Edwards could end up playing for another 10 years in the NFL. With his present career arc, he will have several Pro Bowl appearances.
He is not worth breaking the bank over, but I really hope any player with his talent level is kept by the Vikings.
by medicineball on Mar 13, 2010 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
And that means he does deserve to be paid well.
by medicineball on Mar 13, 2010 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
State of the Vikings
Being in the position they’re in right now, it would be wise for the Vikings to keep Edwards.
I’m not exactly thrilled with his #‘s, but he most certainly isn’t a bad DE. He’s been in our system for a few years now, and he’s still super young….that’s the upside.
The downside is, where does Edwards sit mentally. Is he satisfied with being an average weakside DE for the next few years, or is he going to work on being the best.
Ray talks too much.
I remember seeing Edwards in an interview last year. He was talking about leaving the NFL for a career in +Sized Modeling….I’m sure the Vikings coaching staff saw that interview too. Then a little while later, he was in the media talking bad about Favre getting a private locker if he came to the Vikings.
After the NFCCG, Edwards threw the coaching staff under the bus, and if that wasn’t bad enough, he publicly said he deserves more money than the NFL Commissioner.
At this point, i’m sure the Vikings are wondering where this guys head is at before they offer him raise.
It would be wise for Ray Edwards to STFU for a little while…lol
Nice comment. Edwards has matured since he was drafted, but maybe a little more to go.
by medicineball on Mar 13, 2010 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
I’d like to see Edwards again next year, but with better production in the pass-rush.
With all the talent he’s surrounded with, I think he should be averaging 10+ sacks per year, not 5-8.
With last years schedule being as soft as it was, I think Edwards should have had a couple/few games with 3+sacks. I’m sure the Vikings are thinking the same thing, and that’s probably another reason they’re being so hesitant with him.
We need to keep Ray Edwards
The guy is a 25 year old, athletic as hell DE who is getting better and better. Yes, it helps him a lot that he plays with Jared Allen and the Williams Wall, but the guy has great physical tools and he technique is improving. He dominated when we needed him to against Dallas. Yes Robison is a nice player, but Edwards starts for a reason, and furthermore, we need DEPTH at DE.
For those of you who want the 1st round pick, tell me who are we going to get at 32 (if the Saints take him) that is as good for the next few years (when our SB window is open)? RAY IS ENTERING HIS PRIME.
The Vikes were stupid and/or cheap to sign him only the 1st round tender, not the 1st and 3rd round tender.
They are on the verge of blowing their golden window of opportunity.
+91
I hope we match what is offered to Ray.
by medicineball on Mar 12, 2010 5:29 PM CST up reply actions
They never should have let it get to this point
I agree with you guys and the only reason why I am on the the Edwards bandwagon is because I feel it is going down. Otherwise I would be happy if they gave him a new and fair deal. I just do not want them to not pay him what he is worth.
I’d much rather trade McKinnie!
But that is a whole different thread.
I think I am done with this though.
Time for a new mock!
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