Countdown to Vikings Relocation?
by Ted Glover on May 19, 2010 6:18 PM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings
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Since the latest Minnesota Vikings stadium proposal was about as successful as the pre-Gettysburg Army of the Potomac, the ownership has delivered an ultimatum: Resolve the stadium issue in 2011. Or else. They really didn’t specify what the ‘what else’ was, but I don’t think it’s good. With a lockout looming after the 2010 season, it is time to start thinking about the unthinkable: There is a distinct possibility that 2010 is the last season the Minnesota Vikings could play in Minnesota.
It’s time to look at some realities. The NFL is a for-profit business, and the current set of owners have a much different view on how the league should operate. In the 80's and 90’s, the owners were uber-capitalists who believed in sports collectivism, understanding that if the league as a whole could be successful, everyone would benefit, and everyone could get filthy rich. Well, even filthier rich than they already were. A rising tide lifts all boats strategy, if you will. They were so fervent in that belief that they successfully waged two wars of attrition against the player's union, essentially breaking them in the 1987 strike. From that labor strife came, among other things, a salary cap and contracts that could be voided at the team's whim. That has prevented big market teams from outspending everyone else, like exists in baseball. It has also prevented guaranteed contracts from crippling teams for several years, which has plagued the NBA and MLB for over 20 years. Because of that long term vision of guys like Ralph Wilson, Jack Kent Cooke and others, the NFL became the most successful American sports league in history.
But as Minnesota native Bob Dylan has famously said, 'The Times, They Are A-Changin''. The old guard of NFL owners have been replaced by younger, more aggressive owners like Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones. Their vision is to maximize money streams for their team above the league, and they have won the war. A 'hooray for me, fuck you' strategy, if you will. Jones and Snyder make money hand over fist, and are pissed that they have to put it in a collective pot for other teams to use, like the VIkings. Without revenue sharing, there is no way that the Vikings could sign players like Steve Hutchinson and Jared Allen. And that chafes guys like Jones and Snyder, who want teams like the VIkings to stand on their own financially. And so does the NFL.
With the NFL becoming the most successful league both in terms of popularity and money made, the NFL will not allow a team to stay in a market where they consistently lose money. Roger Goodell has said that numerous times, and Jerry Jones re-affirmed it last year, when he said this about the Vikings stadium situation:
"Right now we are subsidizing this market," said Jones, one of the most influential owners in the league. "It's unthinkable to think that you've got the market you've got here, with 3.5 million people, and have teams like Kansas City and Green Bay subsidizing this market. That will stop. That's going to stop. That's called revenue sharing. That's on its way out."
According to Forbes, the Minnesota Vikings are ranked 31 out of 32 teams in terms of value in the NFL. They lost $19 million in 2007, and made $8 million in 2008 and 2009, years in which they had a home playoff game, adding extra revenue. So they are averaging a net loss over the last three years--with two home playoff games, which is stunning when you look at teams like Washington, who made $90 million, and New England, who made $71 million, just in 2009 alone. The NFL and team owners will not allow a team as competitive on the field as Minnesota to lose money in the Minneapolis market when there is a market available where they could turn a hefty profit. Whether that market is Los Angeles or not remains to be seen, but if there is an NFL team available, somebody will move mountains to get them to come to their city. But Minnesota, apparently, is willing to take that risk. And if not Los Angeles, look for the NFL to try and go global, to either London or Mexico City. You heard it here first.
So how did we get here? Well, there is plenty of blame to go around, from the Governor, to the Minnesota Legislature, to the team itself. Governor Pawlenty has not lead on this issue at all, and at times has even seemed to sabotage team efforts. When the Twins and Gophers were looking for new stadiums in 2006, he asked the Vikings to not pursue one. When the VIkings introduced their plan in the 2010 session, he shot it down almost before the introductory press conference had ended. The Legislature doesn't understand the cultural and monetary importance that the Vikings have to so many people in the state, and across the country. The Vikings bring in a tax revenue stream of $20 million a year to the state as I write this. With a new stadium, that amount is almost sure to go up. The amount of money local businesses make off of the VIkings are hard to calculate, but no Vikings in Minnesota mean businesses that depend on the 'football crowd' to make ends meet will almost assuredly go under. They are smug and arrogant in their belief that the Vikings have nowhere to go, much like they thought when the Norths Stars were threatening to leave. They ignored those threats, and the North Stars left. Yet in the end, they ended up building the XCel Energy Center to...wait for it...get an NHL expansion team. How was that financially responsible? They ended up spending twice as much money to build the X and lure an expansion team than they would have if they had just gotten a new arena built before the North Stars left.
And then won the Stanley Cup.
In Dallas. FUCK!!
And if the Vikings left, the state would also lose tax revenue that they can't see right now. Here in St. Louis, there used to be a great bar called the Route 66 Brewery that was located in the Union Station Mall, about a block away from ScottTrade Center, where the St. Louis Blues play. Great restaurant that had awesome microbrew beers...great place to go before and after a hockey game. When the NHL locked out the players for a whole season, they ended up going out of business. It does happen, and it will happen in Minnesota.
And the Vikings have done a terrible job of selling and marketing a new stadium to the people of Minnesota. They have approached it from a financial angle, which it is, but they need to appeal to the positive emotion the Vikings evoke in so many people. They also bungled a great opportunity to get a new stadium built in Anoka County a few years back. If you'll remeber, the VIkings had a local partner (Anoka County and the city of Blaine), they had a site, and all they needed from the state was money for infrastructure build up. Critics of the plan said that there were DNR/wetlands issues which had to be overcome, but if everything else in terms of location and financing was solidified, that was a hurdle that could have been overcome. But Mr. Wilf got greedy, and kept flirting with Hennepin County, because he wants a downtown stadium. When Anoka County found out Wilf was still talking with Hennepin County, they pulled their offer. Now Wilf is left with a potential location, but it's not definite, they have no financing, and they have no local partner. They went into 2010 with a half assed plan that was thrown together at the last minute, with no local partner. And then they were disappointed when their plan didn't get approved.
I have always said that I believed that when push came to shove, a stadium deal would get done. I no longer believe that. 2010 was the best opportunity, because of several factors. The budget deficit is forecasted to be bigger, costs for a stadium are forecasted to be higher, and all the people who have expressed interest in becoming Governor have not expressed an interest in a Vikings stadium plan.
And for those of you who think the Vikings won't leave, ask the fine fans of the Baltimore Colts or the Cleveland Browns what they think.
The clock is ticking.
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We need to get this done...
I’m sorry, but you have a major problem if you think the Vikings aren’t worth keeping financially and culturally!
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
Don't get it...........
I don’t get it at all. I’m a lifelong Lions fan but, I live in MN. If the lions could get a new stadium,
how ignorant are the power brokers in this state? I’ve lived here for over 20 years now and
am sick and tired of the mamby-pamby touchy-feely attitude driven politics of this state. You
WILL lose the Vikes. It’s not something to play with if you care at all. As much as I hate the
Vikes due to my allegance to the Lions, it would be a f…ing shame for you to lose your team.
But, on the other hand, I’m also sick of billionaire owners not building their own stadiums.
Having tax payes build their business for them without profit sharing is major wrong.
Good luck Vike fans, you’re gonna need it…………….
Expectations don't produce!
You bring up a great point -
The Vikings HAVE done a terrible marketing job. Let the politicians and team representatives talk about the ugly things like taxes, revenues, etc., hashing everything out before going public with a workable plan. The whole process is too much of a turn off to the average resident. Kind of like your girlfriend accepting your marriage proposal, then immediately hitting her with the pre-nup… Total mood killer. As you stated, the emotional angle is what they should be presenting to make their case – how about a series of commercials highlighting all the greatest moments in Vikings history, from 1961 through today? Imagine the classic, old footage of Ahmad Rashad’s Hail Mary catch from Kramer, Fran Tarkenton’s greatest scrambles, all the way up to Peterson setting the single game rushing record and Favre pounding the Packers in ‘09. Sprinkle in shots of hard-core fans braving the elements to tailgate amongst family and friends, always focusing on the smiling faces of the youngest Vikings fans in attendance… Who doesn’t love that? How about footage of Grandpa, Dad, and the kids all wearing their purple gear, underscoring the multi-generational history and appeal of a storied franchise like the Vikes? I’m saying bring out the big guns and go Walt Disney on their asses! Have ‘em in tears at the thought of MN politicians doing the Old Yellar on their beloved team. Then of course, the big closer — "It’s been a great fifty years in Minnesota — Let’s make it a HUNDRED…". Of course, they can also integrate the whole ‘unfinished business’ angle, with a ghostly image of the elusive Lombardi trophy opaquely shadowed accross the screen, a sort of subliminal play… Man, I should be in marketing… Get this thing done! If the non-fans can’t be convinced of the economic benefits of keeping them in MN, I’ll gladly deal with higher prices on tickets, rental cars, hotel rooms, and whatever else they need to do to make it happen. Fine. At least I’ll enjoy it for the rest of my life.
by rovibe on May 19, 2010 7:25 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
You had me at "Let's make it a HUNDRED..."
rovibe, I wish you worked for the Vikings marketing department, cuz that commercial would get a stadium built!
by zero_my_hero on May 19, 2010 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow,
Gave me goosebumps, and it’s just a freakin’ concept!
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile way and you have their shoes.
Anyone good with
Video Editing?
Maybe…… We can use a few clips from the old & the new and get someone to maybe narrate this commercial-like clip & maybe at LEAST get it up online like Youtube!
I’ll plaster that all over social networks!!
I know I am a member of several sorts of Vikings groups….
Hopefully someone will pass your message on to the Vikings
Great advert ideas, really awesome. Makes you wonder what Wilf could have come up with if he had invest a mil in an advertising campaign.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
+10000000000
Brett Favre is the Greatest QB in NFL History, Bar None!
Brett Favre will be back in 2010, Guaranteed!
Brett Favre will lead the Vikings to a Victory in Super Bowl XLV, Guaranteed!
by REVENGE4FAVRE on May 20, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
You got it!
Rovibe, you hit the nail on the head; the team is the “Freaking” MINNESOTA Vikings! Fifty years of highlights would have most of the state in tears and storming the Governor’s mansion and the state capitol.
lalalala i cant here you lalalala
This is why politics through “our” way is broken, they wont do anything to hurt themselves, not caring about there constituents
I only have one question...
How in the hell did that sorry ass excuse for a professional football team (Redskins) make $90 million last year?!?!?
They sell out an 85,000 seat stadium every week
They have VERY expensive, revenue producing luxury boxes, and they get all the revenue to themselves.
The Vikings play in the second smallest stadium in terms of seating, and they little to no revenue producing suites, and what revenue the stadium does produce has to be shared with the MSFC.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile way and you have their shoes.
Great post
I, like you, feel the Vikings are destined to leave. Frankly, I am shocked by the Wilf’s patience because had it have been me, I would have signed on the LA Stadium line long ago.
You're right
I am literally going to blubber like a baby the morning I wake up to find Winter Park empty. But that being sad, I won’t blame Wilf for it one bit. He has fought pretty hard to get this done and has displayed phenomenal patience throughout.
Others, however, won’t be spared so graciously. I will make it a personal vendetta to hunt down (politically speaking, not physically) those responsible and make it known that they are not welcome in our state. I will not let them hide from this sin.
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2010/5/8/1464177/dont-let-them-get-away-with-this
Great, if not depressing, post...
The North Stars/Wild reference is the perfect example of what could/will happen… this is the first time I’ve heard it in comparison to the Vikings situation, and I’m not sure why it isn’t brought up more often.
Essentially what the decision makers in MN are saying is that football is not affordable or important enough in MN now or at any point in the future, because as you state with the Wild, if the Vikes leave and MN wants football again, they’ll end up having to pony up for a stadium at some point down the road.
I was a huge North Star fan as kid, and when they moved, a big part of my childhood memories were lost. I’d hate to see the same thing happen again.
Thanks for the post.
by San Diego Viking on May 19, 2010 11:33 PM CDT reply actions
It really is a sad situation
I honestly do not think the Vikings will leave, because Jacksonville is next up to get shipped off, and the only destination is LA. I do not see any other market ready for an NFL team. But I wish I was more sure of it.
Anyhow, the NFL pisses me off so much, and guys like Jerry Jones are the worst. If I didn’t love the Vikings so much, I wouldn’t give these jackasses a dime. Jerry Jones doesn’t like revenue sharing? Well, whether or not an individual franchise loses money seems irrelevant to me, since the NFL is a single business. The Cowboys may generate more revenue, but they still need teams like the Vikings to play against. The product you watch has two teams on the field, Jerry.
If the NFL becomes a league of “haves” and “have nots”, like baseball, it won’t be nearly as much fun to follow, either. If the revenue sharing went away and small market teams can’t compete, I would probably not care if the Vikings left.
The NFL is, like other professional sports, a legal monopoly. You could have $1B to create a new franchise, and the NFL won’t give it to you if it doesn’t suit them.
What is so aggravating is that they are enormously profitable, and the idea that the Vikings are “losing money” is just such a ridiculous notion. The league is making absurd amounts of money.
Then, they turn around and expect corporate welfare from the public sector. The NFL gets special protection to operate as a monopoly, is enormously profitable, and then expects public handouts? You would think that in a conservative state like Texas people would reject the notion of public money for a private corporation, but I guess it doesn’t apply where the beloved Dallas Cowboys are concerned.
I mean, think what you want about a GM and Chrysler bailout, but at least those companies provide many more thousands of jobs than the NFL, and you can make the argument that our economy would be significantly hurt without them. The NFL doesn’t need any public money to survive, and thrive, and only employs a handful of millionaires supported by a few billionaires. If the NFL disappeared tomorrow, the economy wouldn’t miss it at all.
Having said that, I wish that prick Pawlenty would lead and give my beloved Vikes a stadium. I feel dirty even writing that. I don’t live in Minnesota anymore. If I did, and had to pay some higher tax, I would still want the stadium and the Vikes. It makes me sick that Pawlenty’s political aspirations might cost us the Vikings.
What I really wish is that the Congress would threaten the legal monopoly status of professional sports, including baseball, football, etc. Every time they hold a city hostage like they are doing to the Vikings, the Congress should threaten their special status.
You know what they’ll do, of course, if they get a new stadium? Raise the ticket prices, threaten blackouts, and make it impossible for ordinary people to attend or even watch the games on TV.
by HammeroftheGods on May 19, 2010 11:51 PM CDT reply actions
Right on!
HammeroftheGods, you make some great points. I also do not live in Minnesota; I live in Texas and Jerry Jones is just a pompous ass with too much money and an ego to match. The tax payers of Arlington, Texas put up nearly $500 million to build ‘Jerry-world". I think Jerry should share the revenue that Cowboy’s Stadium generates each year and the money that it puts in Jerry’s bank account with the citizens of Arlington that help make him richer than he already was. It always amazes me that jerks like Jones pass themselves off as “self-made” men when the tax payers in Irving (Texas Stadium) and Arlington help make them richer.
Anyway, for fifty years it has been the MINNESOTA Vikings; it needs to always remain the MINNESOTA Vikings.
*sigh*
Every stadium has some public portion, no? Why should the Vikings owners expect the [fine people of Minnesota] not to play by the same rules? They won’t. The NFL won’t either.
But remember… your taxes were raised back in the late 70s for the sole purpose of generating revenue to build the Metrodome, and that tax worked so well, that the Metrodome was paid off in half the estimated time… and that tax NEVER WENT AWAY. How much money has been siphoned off of that tax since what, 1991!!?? 19 years??!!
Does the MN Constitution allow for a Referendum? Can the people vote themselves a tax increase for the purpose of financing a new Vikings Stadium?
As an FYI. Arizona citizens just voted themselves a 1% sales tax increase to bail out the State. It’s supposed to be a 3 year short term ‘fix’ (sure!)… anyway… that 1% raise makes the Sales Tax in Glendale (the AZ Cardinals sponsor City) a whopping 9.5%! I don’t like taxes. I’d like to think there is another way to get it done (User Fees, voluntary contributions, Casino, focused taxation, etc)… but with everything, I think… if you want them to stay, you’re going to have to bend over and take it. Just sayin’.
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on May 20, 2010 12:25 AM CDT reply actions
Yeah I know you are right
Like I said, I don’t live in MN right now, but if I did I would sadly be for a public financed stadium even if I did. But only because I don’t see anyone at the national level ready to stand up to the professional sports industry.
But, as some have pointed out, then if they leave and MN wants an NFL team, they’ll come back and pony up a stadium to get one, say in 10 years.
However, that’ll happen anyhow. In say 20 years, they will still want another stadium, because the Dallas Cowboys will still be making more money than the Minnesota Vikings.
Could we get a promise that this will be the last stadium they need, anyhow?
If there are taxes, they should be on the businesses that stand to make the most money from the location of the stadium, anyhow. These deals are never a zero sum game. Some assholes in LA are waiting around to plunk a team in the middle of their business and real-estate holdings, all because of a publicly financed stadium in a bankrupt state. Of course the big movers and shakers in any city want an NFL team, because they get rich while the public gets shafted.
All so we can pay $100+ to sit in nosebleed seats, or else face another blackout game.
What they should do, at the federal level, is declare the NFL an unlawful monopoly, and split it up into 3-4 leagues, unless they stop this crap they are pulling to take advantage of everyone. Then, Minnesota can at least figure out which of the 3-4 leagues will give them the best deal.
by HammeroftheGods on May 20, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Why the Situation is Bleak
While formerly living in Minnesota, I heard Zygi Wilf speak and answer questions at a chamber of commerce meeting, shortly after the time he had gained control of the Vikings. It seemed quite clear to me his memories as a kid of watching the Giants play outdoors with his father colors his love for football. I believe the sad truth is that Wilf honestly thought that if you gave Minnesotan’s a team of which they could be truely proud, they would respond in a way he himself did, and that would make his business both financially and emotionally rewarding for him. For him, this mission seems to be a family business and a matter of pride. But as the Beatles once said, pride can hurt you too.
The problem for Zyg’s dream is another group of people, who live in Minnesota. They respond differently. Their votes can be gained by pols telling them that billionaires are all the Dark Side of the Force. These are the TEA Party types who want to stop paying for everything that does not go directly into their own body openings or somewhere nearly as close. I know they are hurting and want someone to throw darts upon. It doesn’t matter if the target is really the cause of all their woes or not. They just want someone else to blame, so no one might think to pin their own poor fates on that guy in the mirror. The truth may be out there, but all they want for Christmas is a scapegoat.
It is not a novel concept that public leaders can stir up hatred by blaming all that is wrong with the local situation on some group of other people. It’s an ancient strategy called divide and conquer. In this version of the spiel, the world would be a far better place if only we made the billionaires pay for everything. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Don’t get me wrong. I agree that those who succeed owe society more that those who do not. I am no fan of many of the business practices of the NFL. In fact, I find more than a few of the owners fairly creepy people, but Zygi Wilf is not one of them. But this is as they say the real world. The sad, sad truth, the dirty low down, is that when push comes to shove, it will be the Minnesota Viking fans who suffer. This is how capitalism works, whatever other glories it might entail. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. I’ve seen this movie about building a baseball stadium and telling the football guy to pound salt, complete with all the lines about how the football guy can’t move the team. The end game is that the pols say, “See that dirty owner was a crook all along, just like you thought. He lied and took your football team.” (Fade to black.) (Then, the real liars expect to get re-elected.)
No one is running for office suggesting that Cargill be run out of Minnesota because they benefit from tax subsidies on soy and corn. Who cares if they convert what Mother Nature intended as food into motor fuel through a fairly inefficient process and thereby drive up the cost of eating. People think it is good for Minnesota. Why? Because lobbyists earn a lot of money shaping public opinion.
Why can’t Wilf do that? Why doesn’t he just go out and buy slick ads and lobbyists? Perhaps it never dawns on people that he is not as rich as Daddy Warbucks just because he has much more in his pocket than they do as individuals (but not as a group). He’s had to go to his partners for cash just to hire the likes of Jared Allen and other stars.
The way things stand, if you want that word “Minnesota” in front of that other word “Vikings”, then Minnesota has to kick in something. There are no Minnesota billionaires dying to buy the team. (Heck, even Prince’s theme song seems pretty lame.) Why are they telling Zyg (a guy from Jersey) he has to bear all the cost? (If you tell me I have to buy the airport to come to Minnesota, don’t expect me arriving back soon.) Zygi isn’t collecting the taxes on all those rich jocks working in Minnesota. Zygi won’t own the stadium, and he can’t leave with it in the backseat of his car. He doesn’t need it except about ten days a year. He doesn’t want one with a roof on it. Without a stadium in which Zyg can soak the rich on their loge palaces, there will be no more Vikings in Minnesota, and the games won’t be on local TV. People who like the NFL will have to leave Minnesota.
If Ed Roski’s idea of a Los Angeles stadium with two NFL teams playing in it (just like they do in the Big Apple) were not a good idea, his pal Tom Lieweke wouldn’t turncoat on him and try to horn in. The cards they don’t have are two NFL franchises. It’s not that California is too cool for NFL football. If you were going to run a successful Los Angeles area based NFL business though , you need a stadium on land that doesn’t cost a fortune in a neighborhood where the fans aren’t mugged reaching their seats, plus the requisite NFL franchise(s). It’s the last item that the boys out here in the west lack at the moment, but they can read the web news just like me and see that Zygi is in a bind and is holding the team that finished third in the whole league last year. Once the NFLPA negotiations are settled, they’ll know what an NFL franchise is worth, and make Zyg an offer he can’t refuse. That’s how capitalism is played, and the rich get richer. You can’t hold your breath and kill the billionaires. The poor say “take your stinking money out of my state” and cut off their own noses. Don’t expect the Hollywood types to shun the World Champion LA Vikings, even if the name does sound stupid to you. People in LA like purple and gold.
Packer fans are not mental giants, but they’ve figured out how to have NFL football. If Minnesotan’s settle for arena football, you’ll never hear the end of it.
Personally, I have probably failed to convince a single person from Minnesota who believes that rich sports owners are the real bane of their personal existence. It’s not that I haven’t tried. That was also true in Cleveland, before the end. Anyone who tells you that Minnesota would get another NFL team is nuts. Jerry Jones does not support welfare for Minnesota.
“What a fool believes he sees is always better than nothing, nothing at all.” The Duluth Eskimos never returned to the NFL either. The ore from the Iron Range ain’t arriving in mass quanitities down in Cleveland any more. The last Viking fan leaving Minnesota will have to turn out the lights, the party’s over.
Good night, Dandy Don, wherever you are.
Wrong about the TEA Party folks
The ‘Taxed Enough Already’ group isn’t against monies that are properly spent, they’re against the political payoffs and boondoggles and ‘green initiatives’ and corporate bail-outs and union pension plan bail-outs. A new stadium isn’t a corporate bail-out. There’s a huge gulf between being against a corporate bail-out, and hating on Wall Street. You take 5 minutes and read the comments in Minny newspapers from local residents and it’s obvious that most of them are anti-Viking and very liberal-minded. It’s the liberals who are ranting against the ‘billionaires’, not the small-government TEA folks.
Other than that caveat, I’m with you, Elgar.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Right About Me
I am a Minnesota resident and property-owning fiscal conservative who wants no part of a tax hike to pay for a new Vikings stadium.
The people most outspoken in favor of a taxpayer funded stadium are either non-residents or people who probably live in rented lofts while pursuing their degree in creative writing…which will be useless without an academic position at a public university paid for by my taxes.
I’ll stop right there for now; suffice to say the only stadium option relying mostly on public funds that I will support is one funded by a tax on alcohol, tobacco, or the state lottery.
I will concede that a new stadium will provide some jobs (although every bit as many jobs would be provided if the funding came from the private sector), as well as a source of income for small businesses, hotels, and the like in the vicinity after it is built, so I can reluctantly support some public funding for a new stadium.
However, since the biggest beneficiary of a new Viking stadium will be whatever billionaire owns the team, and his/her fellow billionaires among the other NFL owners, I want them to pay for the bulk of a new stadium.
Long story short, I can’t see why the taxpayers of Minnesota (me among them) should be on the hook for a project whose main beneficiaries are already billionaires. If that makes me a right-wing tea-bagging nutjob, then I will proudly wear those labels. Flame away.
by Midnight Rambler on May 20, 2010 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions
that would all be completely true and you would be absolutely right to feel that way if the stadium was built only for the vikings and nothing else.
but any new stadium is going to be used for many other events that would otherwise not come to the state at all and all those other events bring in more money that goes directly to the local community for your benifit.
why should the nfl and/or the vikings pay millions of dollars so the state and local economy can benefit from madonna’s farewell tour in 2018 which wouldn’t have happened without a new venue because she refuses to play any arenas that seat less than 80000?
it goes both ways so both sides should pony up.
by iseepurplepeople on May 21, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Thoughtful read
I neither agree nor disagree with your words, I just want to express that I’m surprised that you even “went there” on one thing:
The problem for Zyg’s dream is another group of people, who live in Minnesota. They respond differently. Their votes can be gained by pols telling them that billionaires are all the Dark Side of the Force. These are the TEA Party types who want to stop paying for everything that does not go directly into their own body openings or somewhere nearly as close. I know they are hurting and want someone to throw darts upon. It doesn’t matter if the target is really the cause of all their woes or not. They just want someone else to blame, so no one might think to pin their own poor fates on that guy in the mirror. The truth may be out there, but all they want for Christmas is a scapegoat.
The other comment I have is on this statement:
Packer fans are not mental giants, but they’ve figured out how to have NFL football.That’s kind of an unfair comparison. The only reason there is football franchise in Green Bay today is because it was started when it was still a semi-pro game, not a business, and then it survived until the advent of revenue sharing because local citizens saved it, twice, by ponying up money to buy shares when it threatened to fold, and so it was still hanging on (barely) to be there when the opportunity came along for it to solidify its status as one of the faces of the league during the Lombardi years. But even after achieving that, by 1990 it was again on life support, it was the “Siberia of the NFL” that other GMs threatened to trade players to in order to get them to back down on things, the only thing that saved it from further becoming a league financial parasite like the Vikings are was the new era of success that came with Wolf, Holmgren, Favre, and White. The Packers were not selling out games in the 80s, they always had to rely on local TV stations to buy out tickets so there would be no blackout, and they had to play 1/4 of their home games in Milwaukee because the Green Bay market was simply not supporting them.
I think the real lesson of the Packers, in the 50s and 80s, versus how their fortunes were restored in the 60s and 90s, is: A team has to be able to occasionally win it all for a market to be be willing to support it financially. Sorry, that’s the way it is, and that’s, to put it cruelly but bluntly, the way it has not been for the Vikings. The Packers would have never gotten enough public support to approve the Brown County sales tax increase in the late 90s that funded their “new” stadium (renovation of Lambeau) if the Packers had not won Super Bowl XXXI. I lived there, I know. It really was not the “mental stature” of Packers fans that saved football in Green Bay, it was the success of the team on the field.
Sadly, I fear a lot more than 5 yards was lost by the Vikings when we got that “12 man” penalty than many people realize.
Surely that is an overstatement
It would be a sad day if a team truly has to win it all in order to stay afloat. That may have been true before the free agency and salary caps era. Add to the fact that teams only have a 1 in 32 chance anyway. Parity makes it extremely difficult to be champs. You need a great team and some luck. Hard to believe the Vikings fate relies on the latter.
you’d be amazed by what certain psychological aspects can do.
by iseepurplepeople on May 21, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Packers
The Packers are a PUBLICLY OWNED TEAM that is why they bought shares to save it because more fans wanted to be the owners.
Also “The Packers’ fan base is famously dedicated: regardless of the team’s performance, every Packers game at Lambeau Field has been sold out since 1960.” So the statement “..The Packers were not selling out games in the 80s, they always had to rely on local TV stations to buy out tickets so there would be no blackout, and they had to play 1/4 of their home games in Milwaukee because the Green Bay market was simply not supporting them.”
Is just totally made up.
The truth of the matter is The Packers have one of the longest waiting lists for season tickets in professional sports with about 74,000 people as of May 3, 2007.1920 In 2008 the list grew by more than 4,000 names.21 There are now more names on the waiting list than there are seats at Lambeau Field. The average wait time for season tickets is said to be over 30 years
So lets not make stuff up now…..however in 2008 when the Vikings made the playoffs the stadium did not sell out till the very end buy a mass buy of tickets “a few huge fans”
twincities.com – 1/1/2009
Minnesota Vikings might need big helping hand to avoid blackout
—
As of noon Thursday, there were about 8,000 tickets left for Sunday’s Vikings playoff game against Philadelphia at the Metrodome. That represents a significant hurdle, and it’s looking more likely that the Vikings will need a dramatic turn to avoid a local TV blackout of the game.
That is why the team is moving!!!
by greenbay packers backer on May 24, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Sadly, I agree.
This Packer fan is unfortunately correct. And I hate it when Packer fans are correct. But we here in Minnesota have a loyalty problem. I’m not sure who the “other woman” is, but when we are only half committed to our Vikings.
Once again
A woman is to blame
ha
damn women..
they should stay in their kitchens cooking casseroles
This quote...
Packer fans are not mental giants, but they’ve figured out how to have NFL football.
…is exactly the kind of comments I was referring to that you said you never see. Assuming people who cheer for a team in WI are stupid or many other things. Thought I’d give you another example since you NEVER see that.
I love this.
Sometimes urgency lacks in Minnesota, particularly when it comes to big decisions involving sports. There was a time when I was certain the Twins would leave, and if they hadn’t had one guy to rally around to get the plan (for what would eventually be Target Field) done then I think there’s a very good chance they would have moved.
Someone needs to step up and be a figure that people can identify with A) keeping the Vikings in MN and B) getting the new stadium. It doesn’t have to be someone within the Vikings organization, but it has to be someone—it needs to go from being an ethereal issue that people can ignore to a personalized issue, like Ted says. Make it emotional, tie it to the people of MN and appeal to the massive fan base that there is. Rally their support.
Track Listing
1—There’s Nothing Wrong With A Dude In Braids
2—Purple Blaine
3—1999 (Alternate Universe version where Gary doesn’t miss)
4—Get Ziggy Wit It
5—Remember Cris Carter’s Mustache
6—Hassan Jones Was Under-utilized
7—Let’s Make All Our Women Wear High Heels All The Time (Support Your Vikings!)
8—U Got the Look That Says “Keep My Vikings In Minnesota”
9—Vikings Fans Can Be 3’ 4" (Gotta B Me)
10—Kiss (The Vikings Goodbye If We Don’t Get A New Stadium)
Bud Grant scares everyone
That’s why we love him :)
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
it all started when...
it all started when we built a stadium to replace the met. there were 3 choices and the cheapest choice was the dome. if we went with the spendy one back then. there might only stadium upgrade arguing.instead we went cheap and the day of reckoning is here its out dated. so now its time for a vikings stadium . the crappy gophers got a new stadium and that school makes more than enough to have paid for it themselves.the twins got a new stadium owner worth a few billion could have paid for it himself. so why is there all this the tax payer is being held hostage when it comes to vikes stadium. for 50 years this team hasnt won the big one but they have been in the playoffs more than alot of league. 1969 nfl champs. we need a nice outdoor stadium so when fair weatered teams come up here to play in dec and jan. when they sniffle and nose freezes close we have the edge like we used to at the met. if the vikes move we can use the browns rule and keep name and stats at least but that will cost even more than it did when the stars left. still think the wild should be named minnesota north stars, screw dallas stars.
skol vikes!
Hope you guys get something done.
I know firsthand what it feels like to have your professional franchise yanked from your city and it is a bitter pill to swallow. I am sure they realize the potential they have in that city. Good luck. I would hate to have to start traveling to Chicago for games.
Football is easy if you're crazy as hell
So let me get this straight..
In the late 70s, a tax was introduced for the Metrodome of around 1%. That went really well and the Metrodome was paid off within half the projected time. And this tax was never removed?? Where is the money flowing from this tax that was introduced from the 1970s? If anyone had any sort of money management, they would have continued to use that tax to funnel it into some sort of savings bond to go towards a new stadium. All buildings eventually need to be rebuilt (Especially something that is used primarily for entertainment purposes).
MN should just have to build the stadium on that tax alone… There should be no racino’s, no tax increasing, etc. If this tax increase still exists today as it was introduced back than, THAN this should be a no-brainer. MInnesota should pay back to its people by funding the stadium. This would not be a concept most could have argued if the tax increase went away after the stadium was paid off.. From the sounds of it, it still exists today!!
Where did that money go? Well guess what Polticians, you can use that money to fund the stadium.
This is a great point.
Obviously, I’m not from Minnesota and see the main problem with the Stadium being that a large amount of people are against new taxes for a stadium. This tax is still in existence so it should be diverted back to it’s original purpose. This would satisfy both groups as it’s not a new tax it’s an old tax that has been misused and now should be diverted back to it’s original function. A smart politician could back the stadium with this old/new tax and use it’s miss-use over the last 15-20 years as an attack or defense against critics and rival politicians.
by CanadianViking on May 20, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I am sure
At some point, after the stadium was funded, they were using this tax for other purposes and it wasn’t so publicly advertised…
Otherwise, the public would ask for a cut…
But, it would be a great defense for any politician who believes that a new stadium is needed for the Vikings.
and New England, who made $71 million, just in 2009 alone.
It’s worth mentioning that Kraft built that stadium with nothing but a little infrastructure money. So it’s not like the if the Vikings moved its all the politicians fault.
The Great People of Minnesota will not allow this to happen...............
The deal will be done before the deadline. Guaranteed!
Brett Favre is the Greatest QB in NFL History, Bar None!
Brett Favre will be back in 2010, Guaranteed!
Brett Favre will lead the Vikings to a Victory in Super Bowl XLV, Guaranteed!
Bottom line
The Vikings are committing a HUGE mistake in their efforts to gain support from tax payers for new stadium funding. All the talk so far has been focused on what the Vikings want and need, and not how the tax payers will benefit from keeping the team in MN. That is an agregious error when making any kind of sales presentation, which is exactly what all this is. Imagine going to a new car lot and having a salesman pressure you with obnoxious tactics like, “If I don’t sell you a new car today, I might lose my job!”, or, “I really need you to buy a car from me so I can make enough commissions to go to Cabo San Lucas with my friends next month!” — In either case, the salesperson is focusing his approach on what he wants, and why your purchase would benefit him, when the first rule of sales (and really, ANY good presentation that involves some kind of solicitation for support) is to focus on how the buyer will benefit from making that deal happen. I joked in my earlier post that I should be in marketing, but in a way I already am. I’ve been in real estate sales for years, and if there’s one thing that separates those who survive from those who don’t, it’s the ability to focus on the customer’s needs and wants, and explain how the features and benefits of your product will satisfy their motives. They don’t care about what I want, and they shouldn’t — not when they’re being asked to spend a ton of money. All I’ve seen and heard from the Vikings to date is, “We need a stadium, or we have to move somewhere else where we can make even MORE money…” — as much as I believe their claims and support their right to do what’s best from a business standpoint, it’s just rediculous that they can’t seem to recognize what they’re doing wrong here, and how bad they are making their case to cash strapped tax payers. The minute they stop talking about what they want and start talking about how the Vikings and a new stadium are good for the people of MN, they will immediately start seeing a spike in public support. Until then, they’re just acting like that car salesmen trying to join his drinking buddies on the beach, not caring for a minute about your problems, or how to address them.
Just out of curiosity, what’s to stop Anoka County from talking with the Wilfs again?
On the Minnesota Momentum site it says recently (not sure how recently because nothing on that site has a date so it’s hard to tell when it was written) some suburbs of the Twin Cities have expressed interest in making a deal with the Minnesota Vikings.
I’d like to see a stadium built right next to MOA. It would be somewhat ironic to me.
rovibe
Your a 100% correct. I deal with the same stuff at the bar I work at. I’m not going to get good tips if I ramble on about my life, I have to listen to theirs to make money. Same concept, same results.Eventually, as they begin to feel comfortable to come in and drink and talk off their problems, they’ll feel comfortable to listen to mine. Then they can help me out, for me helping them. They are being selfish…and whats sad, if they weren’t, they’d benefit from it even more. I’m sure you run a fairly good business, and i’d appreciate it a whole bunch if you gave the organization a call and give them even a days time to present what you could do for them.
I hope all works out. SKOL FANS .
Get these posts to the public
Maybe someone can forward these post to Skipp Scroggins or whatever his name is from the StarTribune in Minn. Maybe he can post a few in an article.
It's probably over by now
Yes, the Vikings haven’t done the best job marketing it, and they will get another shot. I’m pretty confident my NFL fandom will end with the 2011 season though.
RED
It is ashame that RED did not cooperate with the Gophers and the state to build a joint classy stadium like they have in Pittsburgh and Arizona and other places. The GREED of RED killed it then and economic hard times and no casino bill is doing it now. So far as getting an expansion team, I do not really see the NFL examding in a long time. It has the VIKES and the JAGS and maybe the PANTHERS struggling. I actually think that Zygi wants to build a qualtiy team (unlike RED that was just in it for the money) but to stay competitive we need to build. It will be a sad sad day in MN if the VIKES leave.
Actually
Theres a simple soluation to this Staduim deal and still keep the Vikes in Minny.When hurricane Katrina hit the Saints they just played at other Staduims.Let the Vikes play away games for the whole 2011 season,see how much the Vikes really impact the Twin citys .Alot of downtown buisness would be lost,same with taxes,parking fees,wages etc. A trial on not having an NFL TEAM.
This is a great idea
It would be a perfect chance to show the doubters how wrong they are.
Question is, where would they play? Des Moines?
That's a great idea...if you want a losing season
I know it’s short sighted, but talk to a Saints fan from the year they did that….or a Bears fan the year they did that. It wasn’t pretty.
It sucks you are guys are in this spot. I know how hard it is to get a stadium through, and it’s a controversial thing in the NFL today. Know that most of us Packer fans are pushing for you guys and want to see you all stay in MN.
Keep the faith!
by PackApologist on May 21, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
If it kept the Vikes
In minny I could put up witth a losing season,we have the chance that T.J. or Sage could be Q.B.ing that year and might not be pretty anyway.Plus might be the year that the Wall might face their 4 game suspensions.Something has to light a fire to get a Staduim going.I live out of State but I would pledge 10 bucks a month for a new Staduim.Maybe thats what we need a Save the Vikes site with pledges.
I like it...
But how are we gonna get a hurricane to wipe out the Metrodome?
All we could hope for
Is tornado’s and those are even un-common….
Jerry Jones is not the devil..
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4447436
Why should he have to share his revenue?
The thing that Minnesota residents have to understand is that if the NFL leaves Minnesota, it’s NOT coming back. There will be no repeat of that Wild business. Minnesota is too much of a small market and will never attract another NFL team.
It’s time to start thinking about life without the Minnesota Vikings. It’s not something I ever want to see. I’m an out of state resident, but if we can get a plan in place, I’d happily donate money to the cause. I’m no hypocrite.
by PurplePeopleEaters on May 21, 2010 12:34 AM CDT reply actions
The problem is that Minnesota actually ISN'T a small-market.
They’re a medium-sized one.
Which, somehow, makes this a little bit worse I suppose…you’d think the larger the market, the larger the support…
You're right..
Minnesota probably isn’t one of the smallest markets around. There SHOULD be enough support for a new stadium.
At the same time, we would never be able to attract another team. I just don’t see that ever happening.
by PurplePeopleEaters on May 21, 2010 5:52 AM CDT up reply actions
If Wisconsin
Can get a stadium in both Milwaukee & Green Bay..
The Twin-Cities Metro area should be able to do the same..
Isn't that Jones point?
From what I read of the quote it just seemed like he was galled that little Green Bay had to subsidize the Twin Cities. Obviously it’s not quite that simple since most Wisconsin teams tend to benefit from the whole state, but still….that does seem a bit weird.
by PackApologist on May 21, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Sort of
But the difference between Minnesota & Wisconsin..
Minnesota has the T-Wolves, Twins, Wild, Gophers all with newer facilities..
Wisconsin is known for their Packers… Minnesota has to many professional sports to keep everyone happy.
The Vikings sat back & waited for their turn, and now they should be considered next in line and want to see something done now or they’ll want to move on to bigger and better things.
FUTURE STADIUM
I WAS WONDERING SINCE THE DOME HAS THE MALL OF AMERICA FIELD LABEL NOW, WHY DOESN’T THE VIKINGS TRY TO RELOCATE TO THE BLOOMINGTON AND MALL OF AMERICA AREA? HAS THERE BEEN ANYTHING EVEN RESEARCHED INTO GETTING THE CITY OF BLOOMINGTON TO FIND A SPOT FOR THE STADIUM, ESPECIALLY SINCE THATS WHERE IT ALL BEGAN? THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO DO IN THAT AREA BEFORE AND AFTER THE GAME AND THE ROAD SYSTEM TO GET PEOPLE IN AND OUT IS SO MUCH BETTER. I’M SURE SOME PEOPLE DON’T GO TO THE DOME JUST BECAUSE OF THE DOWNTOWN MESS. TO TRY AND GET IN, PARK AND OUT OF THAT AREA IS SUCH A HASSLE! WITH THE MALL OF AMERICA FIELD LABEL YOU’D THINK THEY’D BE GAME FOR SUPPORTING A STADIUM MOVE CLOSE TO THE MALL. ITS A WIN WIN SITUATION WITH THE MALL GETTING MORE VISITORS, THE LOCAL RESTAURANTS ARE MUCH BETTER (WITH MORE OPTIONS THAN DOWNTOWN), MORE PEOPLE WOULD COME TO THAT AREA, WHICH IS CLOSE TO MYSTIC LAKE CASINO, WHICH ALL MEANS MORE MONEY FLOWING, MORE JOBS AND MORE TAX REVENUE. IT JUST MAKE MORE SENSE, AND I DON’T KNOW WHY IT HASN’T COME UP. BLAINE AREA WAS A POSSIBILITY BEFORE, WHY NOT BLOOMINGTON?
SKOL VIKINGS!
JIM SMALL
Wow. Reading all of this this sounds depressing. I certainly hope (as well as I’m sure the rest of the country) you guys can get this thing figured out. Nobody wants to see the Viks leave Minnesota. Don’t even start thinking about, well can we attract another team, instead do anything and everything to keep YOUR Vikings in town. Once they go, you just don’t know. I grew up 1 mile from Memorial Stadium in Baltimore as a Colts fan and they stole our team and our hearts because we as fans did not take the threat serious enough, until they were gone. Good Luck guys (and gals)
"We don't report the murders just the beatings!"
Seems to me this is relevant
There’s no doubt the NFL colludes in awarding teams to various cities. A city can’t get an NFL team without approval of the entire NFL as a single organization. Seems like an antitrust law must be broken somewhere there.
Now, if the NFL had little say, it might make it easier to move teams. But it seems to me that might not be that bad of a thing. For example, then cities could get teams to compete against each other, rather than the current one-sided situation where the league colludes to keep the cost of relocating a team as high as possible.
If teams were easier to move, then maybe if we lose the franchise run by Zygi Wilf, and get the one currently in Jacksonville. It just strikes me that anti-trust laws are the way to prevent teams from holding cities hostage like they currently do for new stadiums. If the teams could compete, then cities would have multiple options for a team and could get the best deal.
Anyhow, it’s interesting. It seems to me that people don’t push the professional sports leagues on antitrust issues enough, and that would be a lever to get them to behave.
This story below is about hats, but it has broad antitrust implications for the league.
by HammeroftheGods on May 24, 2010 4:01 PM CDT reply actions
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