Pondering the Ultimate "What If..."
by Ted Glover on Jul 21, 2010 6:26 PM CDT
in Favregeddon
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PrintWell, with training camp just a couple of weeks away, the Vikings appear to be one of the most talented teams in the NFL, and are on just about everyone's short list for the Super Bowl, especially here in this little corner of the Internet. But all of those predictions are made with one assumption--the return of Brett Favre for one last hurrah, and the expectation that his 2010 performance will match his 2009 performance...minus one fateful throw, that is.
Now I know, and you know, and I know that you know that I know Favre's coming back, and this latest 'well, my ankle isn't where it needs to be' stuff is a smokescreen for 'well, I don't want to come to training camp until the two a days in Mankato are over', but let's peek behind the curtain for a minute, and see what happens if Brett Favre shocks everyone and actually doesn't play in 2010? Where does that leave the Vikings?
Well, surprisingly better than most people would seem to imagine. In 2008, the Minnesota Vikings were 10-6 and division champions with Tarvaris Jackson and Gus Frerotte as the two quarterbacks. They had a dominating running game, a dominating defense, and were able to compete week in and week out.
I see much the same if Jackson is the quarterback for 2010, and not Favre, but I think they'll be better than the 2008 version for a couple of reasons:
1) Tarvaris Jackson has had a year to sit and watch from one of the best of all time, and it couldn't have hurt at all. When I watched Jackson in 2009, he seemed a lot more comfortable with the offense. Now granted, it could've been because he was playing when the game had long been decided, but his decision making seemed quicker, and more assured.
2) I would like to think that part of his renewed confidence was in his receiving corps. Sidney Rice matured, and Percy Harvin flourished. I don't know that you can say that would've happened if Jackson had been the starter, but a year with Favre helped them learn the offense in ways they probably wouldn't have with Jackson. That's not a knock on TJ, but you can't quantify the experince Favre brings in this offense. And that was evident almost from week one. Before, Jackson and Rice were learning at essentially the same time, and neither was developing at the rate they should have been. That learning curve was accelerated last year, and now the receivers and quarterbacks have a new level of knowledge about the nuances of the offense they might not have otherwise received without Favre.
3) Almost everyone else is back and healthy. My only concern from an injury perspective is Cedric Griffin. We don't know when he'll be back, and how effective he'll be when he does make it back to the field. A reasonable assumption would be a starting tandem of Antoine Winfield and either Lito Sheppard or Benny Sapp, but that is still unsettled as we line up on final for Mankato.
Can the VIkings be as good a team without Brett Favre in 2010? WIth a more difficult schedule, the kneejerk reaction is to say no way, but it's not that simple. Minnesota has a potent offense, a potent defense, and one of the most accurate kickers in the game. The mediocre wide receiver corps of 2008 is one of the most dynamic as we enter 2010, and I don't think we'll see the same indecisive, inaccurate Tarvaris Jackson, either.
The Vikings, with or without Brett Favre, will still be one of the teams to beat in 2010.
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It will be more difficult
I would be very interested in seeing TJack perform as well as the different defenses that he would see as opposed to Favre.
I think the part of the game where TJack needs the most work is recognizing the blitzes (pre snap reads) and he only can get that with experience.
It will also put Chilly back on the hot seat as he did not get a QB to groom except for Webb who they initially thought would be a WR.
So he is all in with TJack if Favre retires and there will be plenty of people who will say why didn’t he go for McNabb or draft Clausen.
They will say he should have asked for a firm commitment from Favre early on in order to continue to move the team forward.
It is a huge gamble Chilly is taking by doing nothing.
Sure TJack looks the part and has played fairly well in his chances. But this team is built for NOW.
And to top it all off they have not offered TJack a reasonable pay raise just in case of this scenario.
What if TJack says he will not sign a new deal and wants to test the free agent market after this year whether Favre comes back or not?
Then in 2011 we have nothing at QB besides Sage or Webb.
It is a very curious strategy that the Vikings are employing in regards to the QB position.
You would think that if they believe in TJack that they would try and sign him to at least a two year deal now so they have some breathing room in 2011.
I would. Maybe they are planning on doing that once they get a good idea of who they will cut.
If he is going to be the #2 QB on the depth chart behind Favre this year and they keep Sage too, then he MAY feel underpaid since Sage will be making 2 mil more than him.
Good point
I would expect that is Jackson beats out Sage again for the #2 spot that we would see the Vikings address his contract situation at that point.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t think anyone will be asking why we didn’t draft Clausen. There were reasons he fell so embarrassingly far on draft day.
by Cobra312004 on Jul 21, 2010 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I am not sure about the reasons why Clausen fell but if the Vikings can MOVE UP and draft TJack in the second round then they can damn sure draft Clausen in the second round who had a much better collegiate career.
And I was on the Tebow bandwagon.
We shall see but I think it may have been worth a risk.
As I see it, there will still be teams needing a QB next year and the Vikings will not be able to get one of the top 3 unless they do some kind of big trade.
Washington may want a rookie, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Seattle possibly, San Fran possibly, and a few others.
All these teams may look at Locker, Mallett, & Luck.
Not to mention the Vikings may want a left tackle or linebacker in round 1.
Apples and Oranges
It’s impossible to compare drafts in a vacuum. Believe it or not, Jackson was the best QB prospect left. Had we not drafted him, our franchise would have been relying on such luminaries as Charlie Whitehurst, Brodie Croyle or Bruce Gradkowski (these are the only QB’s taken after Jackson in that draft that are still in the league as QB’s). And that’s assuming we drafted one of those players, there were 5 more that have washed out already.
I still say Clausen would have been a wasted pick. He slid deep into the 2nd round, and the team that drafted him had so much confidence in him they drafted another QB 41 picks later. QB’s, more than any other position, are drafted on potential (that’s why they’re so hard to draft). All of Clausen’s glorious statistics and success at Notre Dame (oh yea, he was 16-18 as a starter) count for nothing in the NFL.
At any rate, it’s a moot point because we can’t afford to keep a QB in training right now. Favre is going to be 41 this year and teams will be targeting him more than ever after the NFC Championship last year. If, God forbid, he has to miss time, that means our third string QB is now one Tarvaris injury (something there have been a lot of) from seeing the field. Now, for a team that is hailed as “built to win now”, would you rather have a veteran like Sage Rosenfels out there or Jimmy Clausen?
And for the record, since I’m sure this will come up, I don’t expect the Vikings to keep Joe Webb at QB (at least not this year). He’d be a massive liability for the reasons listed above, and he has way too much potential at WR.
Any team that goes down to its third string QB is no longer in a win now mentality. If that happens then it’s a survive now and hope the owner doesn’t clear house at the end of the year.
The other note about this is that you can insult Charlie Whitehurst all you want, but at least one team seemed to value him more then TJack based on what little tape exists of him out there. Just sayin…
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Obviously if the 3rd stringer was in for extended time, that would be the case. I am more referring to if Favre and/or Jackson go down with a sprain or something minor that would allow them to come back later. In the meantime, we’d potentially have to rely on our 3rd string guy to get us through 1-3 games. And with how tight this division is, 1-3 games could easily be all the difference.
And no one is insulting Whitehurst. The fact is, he has yet to throw a pass in an NFL game in four seasons. That’s just fact. That the Seahawks overpaid to bring him in to “compete” with Matt Hasselbeck is their risk. He could still turn out to be a decent QB, but his performance in preseason games hasn’t been remotely noteworthy either.
Tarvaris is not all that
What if TJack says he will not sign a new deal and wants to test the free agent market after this year whether Favre comes back or not?
What if he was forced to earn a raise by putting together at least one complete season with positive results? Could he do it? Could he replicate it, if so?
I almost wish that Favre wouldn’t come back just so that the TJ trainwreck could happen now and force the team to look for a real long-term solution rather than have this loom on the horizon for another year or two.
by KC Viking on Jul 22, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You are preaching to the choir
But I put it out there because his supporters believe in him but the front office apparently does not.
If I have my QBOTF on the roster then I am not letting him hit the free agent market for a third round pick and I am giving him an extension to secure him beyond 2010.
I could be wrong but it seems like something you would do especially with the QB position.
But at the end of the day, the reality is he will be a free agent after this year and he may want to test the market.
Had to rec that
I can’t believe all the positive thinking around here.
GUS FERROTE BEAT HIM OUT IN SEASON!
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Gus Frerotte beat him out by default
Jackson was benched. Frerotte was the closest thing to an NFL QB we had behind TJ on the depth chart. It hardly means that Gus freaking Frerotte was a better QB.
You seem like a bitter old man in every post of yours I've ever read.
by drew10 on Jul 24, 2010 3:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
Bye Brett
I think this might be it. He can lay it on his ankle. He whopped the Pack twice last year for
his payback. He has nothing more to prove. A great career. It was always fun to watch him
play. Especially when he threw passes from his knees! TJ better be ready. He’s better than
Sage. With either one, enjoy your 8-8 season. With Favre, and healthy, probably 11-5.
And before you start crackin’ on the Lions fan, I know, I know, I’ll enjoy our 5-11 season!!!!!!
Expectations don't produce!
Nothing more to prove?
He was so close to the Super Bowl he could taste it last year. To come that close and miss out is probably worse than if we hadn’t made the playoffs at all. Favre will be back for another shot at a Super Bowl if nothing else.
And congratulations on landing Suh. I hate to say it but I think the Lions are actually on their way to respectability. Soon we’ll have to wait until we actually play you to put W’s on our calendars.
Both good points by 2many and Cobra
He said at the end of last year he had nothing to prove, that his career was complete, but two out of the last three years his last throw was (essentially) a game ending interception in the NFC Championship.
I think he comes back.
I think that's looking at things through some pretty rose (purple?) colored glasses.
If Favre does not come back, that is more than a slight drop off. That’s a HOF, elite QB to a somewhat-proven Tarvaris Jackson.
If Favre has the Vikings at 12-13 wins, Tarvaris makes the ceiling, I think, 10 wins. Minnesota is a good team without Favre, but make no mistake, the Vikings were a pass first team last year. The offensive line did not block well enough in the run game to make the Vikings a run first team. Is that fixed this year? Who knows. I don’t know. They have to have improved with experience and a year of playing together, but if everyone knows the Vikings are going to run with Tarvaris at the helm, I don’t see that as ending well.
Teams would, again, stack the box and force Tarvaris to beat them. Can he do it? History says no. I’m skeptical. Would he better this year? I would think so, but again, I’d have to see it first.
WIthout an elite QB, the Vikings become the second best team in the North behind the Packers. With Favre, they are still the team to beat.
Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!
If Favre does not come back, that is more than a slight drop off. That’s a HOF, elite QB to a somewhat-proven Tarvaris Jackson.
Yeah, I don’t know about slight drop off. The difference between a Favre ran offense and a Jackson run offense was huge. You had the most balanced offense in the league, and probably the best one as well. I would guess Jackson will improve to a degree simply because Rice and Harvin both are really good players but as far as how much he, himself has actually improved I’m not sure.
He struggled most with reading opposing defenses (pre-snap reads/where the blitz is coming from), his accuracy, and his awareness. I don’t know how much all of those things can be improved by simply watching one of the greats do them. His awareness and understanding of defenses is something that improves with experience. It’s easy to watch someone who has the game mastered and think, “Hey, I can do that out there.” It’s entirely different beast to actually go out there and do it though. Now he could have improved his accuracy, and probably has assuming he’s been working his butt off.
Maybe he’ll come out and light things up but like you, until I see it, I’m not sure I’ll believe it.
by packallday555 on Jul 21, 2010 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree with this
He struggled most with reading opposing defenses (pre-snap reads/where the blitz is coming from), his accuracy, and his awareness. I don’t know how much all of those things can be improved by simply watching one of the greats do them. His awareness and understanding of defenses is something that improves with experience.
All he did all year was basically watch film and learn from one of the best to ever play the position. Favre has seen EVERYTHING that this game can throw at him. I would get better at reading defenses from watching film with him , I have to believe Jackson has(and I imagine his coaches maybe learned a thing or two from him as well). Even beyond that, watching film with Favre has probably made Jackson better at WATCHING FILM. So much of football is in the preparation each week.
by Cobra312004 on Jul 21, 2010 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Try it on something else
People have their entire lives to watch the great musicians, but only a few actually benefit so much from watching them that they become great musicians themselves.
Yea, that is completely irrelevant
We’re not talking about watching Brett Favre on film and learning to be as good as him, we’re talking about watching films on your opponents. Favre has been watching film in the NFL since Jackson was 8 years old and he probably can teach the Vikings QB coach a thing or two on film study too.
Peyton Manning watches something like 40+ hours of film each week (after road games, he watches film on their next opponent during the flight home). If you’ve ever wondered why he’s so good, that’s your answer. He puts in the work and in the NFL, which is at least as much a mental game as a physical one, that means film study. You have to know what your opponent is going to do based on the most minuscule of tells.
I’m sure Jim Sorgie has watched tons of film on other teams, but I don’t think he’s going to make a run on Eli this year.
I always get confused with the argument that a QB is going to improve by watching an elite QB play. Do you hear anyone say that Matt Lienert is better for watching a HOF QB play? No. Are teams banging down the door for Sorgie or Painter for what they’ve gleaned from Manning? No. Did Brett Ratcliff absorb what it takes to be a good QB from Farve watching him that year with the Jets? No.
So why is T-Jack so different from any of these guys?
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Many reason(s)
I believe there will be several reason(s) why T-Jack could be better as he sits behind Favre.
1) Confidence…. T-Jack seemed great in garbage time, but there was also no pressure on him. So he felt like he coudl go out there, just run the plays and be successful.
2) Hard work ethic… I can probably “assume” T-Jack does not nearly watch the same amount of film that Favre has done. I am sure now that T-Jack has watched Favre and his work ethic, he may take that into consideration and do it himself.
3) Learning the playbook… I’ve read that many people said that T-Jack has a limit on what he can do within the playbook. 1-2 years of sitting on the sideline watching a future hall of famer take snaps and run plays successfully, he can learn a thing or two.
4) Favre can hopefully help him break down plays.. On our own offense and potential defenses that we will oppose. Maybe he can explain why he sees a blitz coming, or why someone may be dropping back to cover. Or which particular guy he is going to keep an eye on to get open.
5) The Post-Favre factor: Favre will have created confidence in certain receivers. Rice had a break-out year, and we never know what may become of Webb unless we have a great QB to have throw to him. Now I understand that Webb may be utilized as a QB, but currently w/ our depth chart for QBs, we may try to start him off at WR to get some plays in.
6) Years in the league, I am sure during training camp, and practice during the week, T-Jack will get him ample time connecting w/ receivers. QBs normally are better w/ experience, so, I am sure that T-Jack is just waiting to get his chance to shine..
Overall: If Favre returns, I hope we are able to put T-Jack in a little bit earlier than normal. Only because it’ll maybe put the pressure on him more to make him more comfortable. However, I would hate to see him shine so much we lose him to another team to only regret it later. Could it happen? Yes… Will it, I am thinking likely not…
Jackson is going no where
If a QB needy team didn’t make a move for Jackson this year I have a hard time believing that someone is going to make a drastic move for next year. There wasn’t enough tape of him doing good things for a team to make a play for this year and that’s not going to change unless something bad happens to Farve this year. If that bad thing does happen, and Jackson plays well in the meantime, then the Vikings will lock him down with an extension or franchise him next year.
As for the rest of them here’s my thoughts on what you are saying:
1.) Ok, I can believe that. I haven’t followed him, so maybe that extra bit of sitting and coaching can help him.
2.) This is the same as one. For as negative as people can be about T-Jack one thing that I’ve never heard is that he’s lazy. He definitely is not Jamarcus Russell. He puts in the work. Right now it just hasn’t consistently showed on the field yet. Maybe with some intensive time with the coaches it will in the future.
3.) Same as two.
4.) Don’t bet the farm on this one. I don’t mean to be a prick, but watching him for all those years in Green Bay, I know that Farve is not a teacher of the game. I’m sure that he goes over the reads and progressions with his back ups, and gets them prepared in case he goes down, but he not really a guy who sees his role as training up the new guy. It’s been pretty well chronicled that he didn’t do that with Rodgers and I’m pretty sure that he didn’t do that with Hasselback or Brunell either.
The best way I can say this point is by pointing out the style of play that all of the guys who were behind him have compared to Farve himself. Guys like Hasselback, Brunell, and Rodgers are not the same sort of gunslinger that Farve is, rather, they are ball control who work within the West Coast offense. If he were really training them up you would probably see more of his play style coming through.
5.) I also don’t believe the Post-Farve factor in recievers. Farve makes his recievers better yes, but that is not a permanent thing. Chancey Stuck is not tearing up the league right now. Antonio Freeman did not light things up like he did when he was with Farve. The recievers who have had great careers after leaving Farve have done so because they have had great QB’s throwing them the ball still, for example Driver and Jennings.
6.) This is a toss up. QB’s take a while to develop so I’m really hesitant to say that T-Jack is who he is, but if he isn’t to that point yet then he’s extremely close. The only QB that I know that seems to go through Renaissance years is Kurt Warner. More often is that a guy plays well, but then hits a wall and really stays static after more and more years in the league.
Really when you look at what makes a good QB in this league it’s not who they play with or what players the guy learns from. Rather, it is the coach and scheme. Does the QB fit the scheme that is being played? Does the coach he is working with have a track record of developing QB’s?
So the question becomes do you believe that T-Jack can be formed by Childress and his staff? My humble, slightly biased opinion is no. Childress strikes me like Jon Gruden in his abilities with QB’s. He works best with older, reliable QB’s. He will typically have an en vogue QB of the time, but really can’t develop that young QB of the future.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I find it odd
How you say he Jackson is going no where, yet you somewhat agree with several things I said.
You basically agree with 1,2, & 3.
With #4, I was never trying to say Favre was going out of his way to teach those qualities, but you can’t tell me the people around him are not maybe learning a thing or two behind him when it comes to that.
With #5, I did not intent to make it sound like these players would consistently have great years down the road. What I meant to say, each of these players should be better post-Favre than pre-Favre. I am sure if we were to look at 2010 w/o Favre this year, a T-jack to Rice combo would be more successful than it was in the 2008 season. But still potentially something that wouldn’t compare to the 2009 season.
I’m saying there would be improvements, but no world of a difference.
With #6, We all know most QBs become better with age (like a fine wine), and some of the things that make Favre so good is his ability to read a defense. Favre does a lot of great things, and he does them w/ all the experience. Not to often do you see a rookie QB very successful unless he has a really good team surrounding him. So, I wouldn’t expect to see the St. Louis Rams making the playoffs this year. Will they improve? Likely, but I don’t see playoffs this year for them.
To clarify more on #2, I never meant to make Tavaris sound lazy. I am just saying what he does to get ready for the season or a game may be hard work, but maybe he learned a few tricks from Favre to help improve. Like, watching more film than what he is used to, and extra effort in studying the playbook better. Watching old films from the 08 & 09 season. etc. etc.
I can’t imagine T-jack to have gotten worse, but I don’t think he’s going to be jaw-dropping better. I think he’ll suit as a solid back-up and could be hard to compete against for the next starting QB after Favre.
I don’t think Sage will pull it off, and unless Webb is amazing, he is the only competition.
I think you missed the point with what I said for the Post-Farve. The point is the only receivers that stayed great after Farve left them had a great to elite QB throwing to them still.
I will admit that this is not a fair evaluation since the only guys that quality for this are either burnouts (Javon Walker), guys who didn’t have much left in the tank after they left Farve (Freeman), or guys from the Jets who really didn’t have much of a receiving core to begin with. Or had a great to elite QB throwing to them after Farve left (Driver and Jennings).
Rice and Harvin are better than most of those guys (pretty much all over them with the possible exception of Driver and Jennings and then it would be an interesting debate). What I will be curious to see is how much did Farve bring out their greatness and how much did Farve just make them great?
These are the sorts of soul searching questions that need to be answered unless by some miracle another franchise QB falls into your laps next year. It’s impossible to simply discount this from happening. After all, who could foresee Cutler pouting his way out of Denver last year? But really how many franchise QB’s are going to be moving around next year? I know gothic purple dreams of Super 5 coming from Washington next year, but hat’s a real long shot. After that there aren’t many guys who can lead a team to a Super Bowl is foreseeably moving next year (unless Big Ben continues to hang out with college girls or VY just continues being himself).
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Your right
The pieces of the puzzle would have to come together in the right scenario to answer this question.
We can slightly get an idea when it comes to certain players going to the pro-bowl. (Greats going up against greats).
We can try to figure out what happens when T-jack goes into garbage time, but that isn’t a fair assessment considering that the defense is more in a prevent mode versus praying for a comeback. I do know that Tavaris did throw 1 TD pass for sure last year, and I believe it was to Rice.
The argument is in regards to young QB’s with potential and is based more on learning how a real pro handles his business. It is operating on the assumption that the player in question has the physical tools to be successful in the league. At that point, the young QB’s development can be accelerated by learning from a veteran who has long since learned how to handle his business and be a professional.
Jim Sorgi was a 6th round pick and was drafted to be a competent backup to Manning. Nothing more. He didn’t, and still doesn’t, have the skills to be an everyday starter in the NFL. But he has most definitely benefited from being around Peyton Manning.
And yes, I’d say that Leinart is better for watching a HoF QB. That doesn’t mean his arm strength is good enough to be an NFL QB, but I think he absolutely learned from Warner.
But your argument doesn’t track with history. If younger players, especially QB’s, could simply learn from an elder statesmen of the game how to handle themselves and they get better then you wouldn’t see teams go through such long droughts of good QB play.
Just look how long it took for Denver to replace Elway, Miami to replace Marino, Buffalo to replace Kelly, Dallas to replace Aikman, etc.
On the flip side there are only two examples of a team replace one elite QB with another elite QB (Montana to Young and Farve to Rodgers). By the way, in both of those cases there was controversy in the switch and at least some bad blood between the two QB’s accounted for, not exactly a situation where you see the backup learning from the older one. There is also one more successful transition in Young to Garcia, but here again you don’t hear much talk of Garcia really learning from Young, rather you hear how Garcia learned from playing in the CFL and the like.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
you make it sound like..
No QB learns ANYTHING from another QB at all!! Zilch, nada, nothing..
I can hardly find that true..
You can’t tell me when QBs practice together, the younger lad doesn’t learn a few tips….
I watched Invincible the other day…. I think it was on Fx, and the rookie bartender (forgot his name) got paired up to room w/ a veteran (an offensive lineman), he made a remark about how the coaches were critiquing the veteran O-lineman on a certain issue. The lineman immediately upset, quickly gave the rookie a pointer (knuckles white or not white) Good Movie… But I stand by my point, players can learn from other players.. You make it sound like it never happens…
It's not that they don't learn anything
The NFL is not a league about equality. There are inequalities all over the place. Some players are paid more than others even though they are as good or better then others at their position. Some teams win year in and year out and others stay in the basement for seemingly ever.
The most definite of which is the position of QB. There is nothing else like it in any sport. The QB needs not only to be athletic and tough, but also smart and charismatic. As a result, what separates a good QB from an elite QB are things that often can’t be taught or gleaned from another player. Can a QB improve from watching one of these guys? Sure. Can a backup get enough of that IT quality watching an elite QB to adequately replace him over the long haul? No. If it were that simple there would be more QB colleges and no demand for a developmental league for the NFL. It’s just not what happens in the game.
The dirty truth about this and T-Jack is that he is probably not an elite, Super Bowl level QB. Not only that, but the Vikings are going to need that level of QB play in order to compete for the division in the coming years. A lot has changed since 2008. The Packers are a well rounded team now, and they weren’t then. The Bears and the Lions also now have QB’s that have the ability to turn into something very special. As a result the Vikings are going to need more than a power running game and strong front seven to compete. They need a balanced offensive attack from a premiere passing game.
In a way you saw that last year with the power struggle between Farve and Childress over play calling last year. As the Vikings relied more on Farve and his abilities the offense played better and they rolled over teams. When they tried to just pound it with AP like in years past they struggled.
The moral of the story is that there is a double edged sword to having truly elite QB play. Mostly that comes in the form of replacing him. I could go on and on about how teams have struggled to replace their HOF QB, but in the end it all comes to the fact that while T-Jack could be a decent QB, he is not going to make you the same competitor that Farve makes you…no matter what he picks up from the old gun slinger.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
We will never know until his time comes.. Just, his time may come when he is on a different team. And we won’t know for a few years.. And, if it does happen, you & I may not frequent this board or even recall this conversation to say.. “I told you so, or see!! My point!” But there are many good average QBs that are successful. I would consider Romo to be average or above, along with Eli, Flacco, etc. They’re relatively new and have brought their teams to the playoffs or in Eli’s case a Superbowl. I think a lot if can depend on several factors (offensive support, defenses, and even special teams take play).
Imagine having an explosive offense that tops out the entire league, but your defense is just as pourous. It would be like basketball as often as teams scored. But, I think any team can beat any team on any given day. The game is now more mental than everything…. Hard to predict the future… But unless Webb happens to jump the depth charts over T-Jack, he is our 2nd best chance, since I am pretty sure he would beat out any new rookie that joins the team unless the FO wants to throw the rookie QB to the wolves until he gets everything down pat. If that happens, we can expect a pretty average or below average year. But, for some of us hard-core fans, we can at least be happy knowing we would have a franchise QB. (Which doesn’t seem like MN ever really has).
I also think that a lot of these elite QBs are put on a pedistal. I know finding great QBs are hard to find.. But, not every elite QB = Superbowl (i.e., Marino). The team as a whole has to be at a certain level to reach those points.
Do I think we could do it w/ T-Jack? It’s possible.. Not likely…
He’s had playoff experience, starting experience, and even time to sit out and watch from the sideline and learn and be supportive.
Everyone has a ceiling of performance.
I think TJacks was back in college. I’m not trying to be mean but his accuracy has been poor since college. Also, he does not handle pressure situations well. He does great in preseason and garbage time but fold when he’s in a real game.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
That’s exactly my feelings too. We can acknowledge that he does ok against solid teams, though he still usually has his fair share of struggles. It’s when he plays good teams or in big time games where he struggles the most. Maybe it’s his confidence?
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 4:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe he handles pressure badly because he’s only played a handful of big games. He’s only started 20 games including the playoff loss so he’s gotten very little big-game experience for a guy entering his fifth year.
by CanadianViking on Jul 24, 2010 5:14 AM CDT up reply actions
What are we arguing here?
Is it that elite QB’s can make young quarterbacks better and accelerate their learning curve or that elite QB’s mentor other elite QB’s?
Let’s take a look at the examples you put forth.
The Broncos and Elway: The Broncos drafted Brian Greise in the 3rd round of 1998 and he sat behind Elway for one year. The 36 year old Bubby Brister was the 2nd stringer so no other QB was really in place for the future. Greise went on to play 11 years and made the Pro Bowl in just his 3rd season (QB rating 102.9). While it wasn’t enough to follow Elway’s HoF career, it was pretty good for a 3rd round pick.
The Dolphins and Marino: The final 2 years of Marino’s prolific career, he was backed up by a young Damon Huard. Huard was undrafted. He never got a chance to follow in Marino’s footsteps because the Dolphins brought in Jay Fiedler the next year. Huard went on to play for the Patriots and the Chiefs, starting 21 games for the Chiefs from 2006-08. He played 13 seasons and ended his career with a respectable 80.6 QB Rating and a 15-12 record as a starter. Not bad for an undrafted guy that bounced around NFL Europe before landing behind Marino.
The Bills and Jim Kelly: Kelly was backed up by Todd Collins towards the end of his career. Collins was drafted in the 2nd round to be the QB of the future. However, after one season as a starter, the Bills let him walk and brought in the 36 year old Doug Flutie. Collins became a career backup but in 2007 he posted a 106.7 QB rating while starting 3 games in place of the injured Jason Campbell. He played 16 seasons.
The Cowboys and Troy Aikman: Not a great example as Aikman’s career was really ended by injuries. Anthony Wright was the backup but never was given a real shot at starting, and rightfully so. He was undrafted in 1999. The Cowboys were simply not ready to replace Aikman. Nonetheless, Wright bounced around the league for 10 seasons.
And while you’re talking about Favre being successfully, yet controversially replaced by Rodgers, why not mention the others who have successfully emerged from Favre’s shadow?
Ty Detmer, 9th round pick, went on to start for the Eagles
Mark Brunell, 5th round pick, went on to three Pro Bowls and over 100 starts for the Jaguars, played 18 seasons
Aaron Brooks, 4th round pick, became 5 year starter for the Saints, recording four 3,000 yard/20 TD seasons and leading the Saints to their first ever playoff win.
My point here
Is not that Jackson will necessarily be a great QB because he sat behind Favre. I am only stating that Jackson will be a better QB for it.
And as a QB who has already gotten better every season, that may be all he needs to push him over that line. He’s closer to being a great QB than most people admit.
No, he's not...he's really not.
If he was a team would of paid a third rounder for him. Sorry, but if a guy is that close to being great other teams will see it, especially at QB.
The other point is that for all those QB’s you listed it is never said that the great QB mentored the other one. Not in any of those cases.
We could go on and on as well. Did McNabb mentor Kolb? NO! It’s Reid’s coaching that’s said to be the factor in making Kolb if he’s successful. Same with all the others that you mentioned.
My point is that it’s just wishful thinking to think that Farve has improved Jackson beyond what he is. If Jackson has improved then the credit goes to Bevell and Childress. If you think those two have improved Jackson then I might start buying this improvement, but not Farve. It’s just not the way of the QB.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
You make it sound like Jackson will never be successful.
Jackson has already won games.
And for the whole 3rd round tender argument, how many people paid out tenders for certain players?
Only the FO really knows how good T-Jack is… He was given limited play time during garbage time, so a whole lot of teams do not know how good he may actually be.
Ray Edwards had a 1st round tender on him, and he proved himself to be a top-10 sacking DE.
Nobody bit on him… But reports showed people interested.
The real question is.. Did any trades/signings happen to anybody that was tendered????
Seriously
After months of speculation about RFA’s this turned out to be a very quiet offseason. I don’t think any were signed, only a handful were traded. It’s hardly evidence of how teams felt about any players.
I think it says more not of who talked to him but what our team posted him as
if TJ who is currently second string, and for all purposes right now Favres heir and our QOTF is only tendered at a third round draft pick something smells fishy. Who on earth would risk something that meant that much to the team?
Also, teams that did need a solid second string QB didn’t bite on him instead picking up people like Witehurst who had never played an NFL down instead.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
It's beneficial to take a fresh QB
Sort of the same thing when your hiring people.
In some cases, there are two different groups of people you can hire.
1) A person who has never been in the industry before and is fresh to the job.
2) A person who has experience within the industry.
They have their pros & cons.
Pros of a new person is that the company can train/groom this person to fit their interest.
Pros of an experienced person is that they will not need as much training to get the up to speed.
Cons of a new person is they will need more extensive trainings
Cons of an experienced person is that they may have some habits that are considered bad habits that are hard to break.
I think, some people take this type of approach when pursuing back-up talent QBs. They look for something more fresh than someone with experience so they can groom them the way they want them groomed. It would probably not be good for T-jack to go to a new team and learn a whole new system, that would only set him back.
and honestly TJ
may just not fit their scheme. I know I sound harsh on TJ but that is mostly because I don’t think he will ever become a true starter in this league, he is a solid back up for us right now as he knows the system very well (or should at least) However, I would like to see someone else brought in that can be a future starter for us.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
That's not what I'm saying
I’m saying two things:
1. IF T-Jack is a successful it will be more due to the work of Childress and Bevell than it will be to exposure to Farve. Come on guys, give your coaches some credit here!
2. Without Farve the Vikings would be behind in the QB arms race that is the NFC North. The NFC North has changed over the last year ladies and gentlemen. It is now firmly a division of very solid to premiere QB’s. In fact I challenge anyone to name me a division with as much quality starting QB’s in the league.
In this form of division the formula for what worked for the Vikings in ‘08 isn’t going to work in the same way it did then. The Vikings will need not only a starting level QB, but one that will be able to outmatch some of the other QB’s in the division. I don’t think T-Jack is that guy. He may have a fine career, but if you get into a passing war with Stafford, Cutler, or Rodgers then he’s in trouble. Farve can win those games, Jackson can’t. Period.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually
I’ve never liked Cutler since he came into the league. He’s not a winner (and never has been at any level) and he throws way too many interceptions for the level of QB he’s supposed to be. Insomuch as Cutler is gonna be throwing 20+ interceptions a year, I’ll take Jackson over him. Not everyone will agree there but remember this; Kyle Orton had a better QB rating in the Bears offense in 2008 than Cutler did in 2009. He also had a better QB rating with the Broncos in 09 than Cutler had in 08.
Stafford has shown potential but lets wait until he has won more than 2 games in his career before we start labeling him as anything but a former #1 overall pick. He is definitely not better than Jackson at this point (his stats last year are actually slightly below Jackson’s in his first year as a starter).
Rodgers is undoubtedly a top notch QB, no argument there. But I’ll take the Vikings defense over one that let up 51 points in the first round of the playoffs.
That said, I flat out reject your assertion that we can’t still win the division with Jackson. I think it becomes a harder task without Favre (a moot point of course, since everyone knows he’s coming back) but I think it’s still very winnable.
The Packers have an improved but overrated defense. Despite being “#1” against the run during the regular season, they allowed 156 yards to the Cardinals, the 28th ranked rushing team. Now they lost Jolly for the year.
The Lions are also improved but they’re still the Lions. They’ve won 2 games in their last 32, they’re hardly dangerous yet.
The Bears have spent a lot of money on positions they didn’t need. Cutler still has no real receiving threats. Mike Martz should help their offense but he negates one of the Bears best offensive weapons in Greg Olsen. The Bears defense is still too slow and injury prone (they’ve also allowed over 21 ppg for three straight seasons).
by Cobra312004 on Jul 23, 2010 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't underestimate your rivals
Remember Cutler burned the Vikings the last time he played them. Keep your eye on him, he’s going to make the Bears a more potent offense than what was put on the field back in ’08.
The same is said for Stafford. If you think that Stafford isn’t an upgrade over the committee that the Lions put out that year then you need your head examined, no matter how many games he’s won so far.
And yes, no matter how good your D is (which the secondary is a bit shaky, especially if the pass rush doesn’t come through), if the Vikings get into a shoot out with either of these teams then an elite level QB is needed to prevent the other team’s D from simply stacking the box. This is the reality of our division over the next few years.
by PackApologist on Jul 23, 2010 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I'll be afraid of Cutler when he proves himself
He lost 3 straight games to miss the playoffs in 2008 when he only needed to win one. He threw 26 interceptions last year and has averaged over an interception/game for his career. Now he’s not throwing to Brandon Marshall, he’s throwing to WR’s who are most noteworthy for having cool names (Aromashodu and Knox?). When the Bears beat us last season, they scored 14 points in the second half, both times on short fields (4 plays for 34 yards and 2 plays for 21 yards). Poor play from our special teams was the only reason we didn’t win that game by multiple scores.
Of course Stafford is an upgrade, they were 0-16. But he put up numbers comparable to Jackson’s first season as a starter and won 2 games. That’s hardly enough to put the Vikings on red alert just yet (are the Packers afraid of them?).
The Saints had the best offense in the league last year and we held them to 257 yards. I’m not too worried about a shootout. But if it comes to it at some point, and Jackson’s our QB, I guess we’ll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Hopefully he is up to it at that point, no one can know that right now.
The Packers have an improved but overrated defense. Despite being "#1" against the run during the regular season, they allowed 156 yards to the Cardinals, the 28th ranked rushing team. Now they lost Jolly for the year.
I’d agree that our defense is overrated but it’s the passing defense that lead too that not the run defense. The run defense struggled big time against Benson and Jackson but at the same time, so did almost every team their team played.
As for the playoff game, that was a disaster. We showed them way too much in week 17 (especially defensively). Watching the second game had me feeling like we had actually played the Cardinals serious in week 17, and done so showing them a good deal of our stuff on offense and defense. While, on the other hand they played basically as if it were a preseason game.
Right out of the gate we looked totally unprepared, offensively and defensively. Eventually our offense adjusted, and started to torch their defense. Only problem was, the defense only managed to force them to punt ONCE the entire game. The exploited us across the middle, lining up in bunch formation, play after play. We tried turning up the heat, and continued to get torched, only faster as it took them 3-7 plays to put one in the endzone. The ultra conservative approach was then tried by us, and again, didn’t come close to working.
They then followed that up by running the same kinds of traps and counters over and over again, mainly too the side with Jolly and Jones.
It was obvious that their coaching staff found a number of things too exploit, and probably from our game a week earlier (and probably watching the Steelers game). It was also obviously that we went into that second game basically changing nothing. Had we game planned better, I think we would have looked much better against the run. (Probably not the pass though)
Even with those poor performances though, we still had some good ones against AP, Gore, Rice, Mendenhall, and the Cowboys trio. I don’t think anything was overrated about our run defense. I wouldn’t say they were the best as the ranking indicates but certainly top 5.
Losing Jolly will hurt that too a degree but at the end of the day, he was going to be a bench guy, who spelled guys in a rotation. Jenkins, Pickett, and Raji all proved to be good against the run last season. Even if none of our 4 back-ups prove to be a solid rotational player (which I kind of doubt), we’d still be able to manage your running game, or at least stop AP from having the kind of games he did in 2008, running for like 130 and 180 yards. And if he can’t manage to do that, I’d bet we could do enough against Jackson to keep your offense under control. (As we consistently did last season against average Qb’s).
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 4:46 AM CDT up reply actions
We won't need to get in a passing war
because we have Adrian Peterson. I challenge you to name me another back in our division that even comes close to Adrian’s level of talent.
Toby Gerhart
is the closest I can think of, and he’s not all that close… :D
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Didn't the..
Lions pick up a pretty good back?
West, or Best? or somethign like that.
Isn’t he supposed to be pretty good. i know he was top of the 2nd round in talent.
Jahvid Best, but he has a concusion history
One good hit and he’ll be sidelined for awhile. But if he can stay healthy, he’ll be pretty good, I think.
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
As good as?
No one, but Ryan Grant is a back that doesn’t stink. He had over 1,200 yards behins a patchwork line for most of the season. Peterson is a special player, but Grant is no slouch.
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
I think Grant
Can’t say thanks to the Bears for his rushing yards being so high.
Didn’t he have like nearly 200 yards or so just in Solder Field alone?
If Forte can get past his sophmore slump
and Tice can invigorate the Bears line (which I think he will be able to do) then I would say Forte has the ability to be a better back than Grant. I really like his ability to catch the ball out of hte back field. Interesting that the bears have two guys who are good at catching the ball.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I don't think Moses could open a hole in the Bears line
Regardless of who the starting RB is.
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
Don't be ridiculous
The other point is that for all those QB’s you listed it is never said that the great QB mentored the other one. Not in any of those cases.
Says who? Are you really suggesting that a young QB would come into a team with a HoF QB and not try to learn anything and everything they can from him? Are you giving all of the credit for Aaron Rodgers to Mike McCarthy? Perhaps they kept Rodgers in a sensory deprivation chamber so that the only stimulus he would receive would be from his coaches?
Players don’t grow in a bubble. Whether they are “formally” mentored or not, they most definitely were better players for being around some of the best to ever play their position. To suggest it made no difference is absurd.
Great point about the lack of a bubble concerning development.
It’s a valid point that players and people in general can learn just by being in close proximity to someone who is great at their job.
Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned as a help to Jackson is that he was on the headset for every call last year that went in to Favre. So not only did he watch Favre play the game he got to hear how Favre took the given playcalls and ran them or checked out of them. That’s some intimate knowledge of Favre’s thought process and the execution that followed it.
None of this means TJ will be amazing when he gets another chance to play but it’s very hard to believe that listening, watching, and talking to Favre won’t help him to become a better QB. How much better that experience will make him is impossible to predict but that added mental growth will certainly help his development.
by CanadianViking on Jul 22, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
You're right there is no bubble
Rookies learn from veterans. That’s true. But QB is a slightly different sort of position. QB’s have to learn so much and be more prepared than any other position on the team that I don’t think there is the same level sharing that happens with other positions.
The main evidence that I have is history. How often do you hear Montana credited for Young’s success? Do people say that Scott Mitchell is better for having watched Marino?
Or how about I help make your point…look at Jon Kitna and Carson Palmer. I’m sure that Palmer was greatly helped by watching Kitna his first year or so in the league. He got to watch how a professional works and breaks down defenses. But is Kitna the reason why Palmer is one of the better passers in the league? No. It’s his own combination of charisma, talent, work ethic, and the like.
Do we talk about how Drew Brees mentored Phillip Rivers? Or how Doug Flutie mentored Brees? No, because they didn’t do that. It’s just not part of the QB beast.
Really my point is a simple one of history and a basic theory of how QB’s are developed. That’s all.
by PackApologist on Jul 22, 2010 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
If that is the case
Than why do teams keep doing it? Teams have been trying to get their QB of the future in time to learn from their QB of the present for decades. If it really made no difference, I don’t think they’d keep talking about it and keep doing it year after year.
I would challenge you to ask Palmer about how Kitna did or didn’t help his career. Or ask Steve Young about the influence Joe Montana had on him. Ask Philip about what it was like learning behind Drew Brees. I think you’ll get the answer you’re suggesting no one talks about.
History and historians give the credit to the players themselves, and sometimes the coaches. That’s the nature of history, it can’t tell the whole story (was Genghis Kahn great on his own or did someone help teach him? was Caesar self made or did he have a mentor?).
I think you are missing the point
Perhaps we just need to agree to disagree, but I would argue that the coach is more formative of the QB than the QB who played a head of him.
For example, I would say Jason Garrett had more of a hand in forming Tony Romo then Drew Bledsoe. I would also say that Bill Belichick had more of a role in forming Tom Brady than Bledsoe did as well. A good note on that was the offseason awards for attendance and hard work that Brady was winning well before becoming the golden boy.
The list for this goes on and on. Think of when the Packers were exporting QB’s around the league. The guys the Packer shipped out weren’t shipped out because they were learning from Farve. It was because they were learning from Holmgren, who was seen as a QB guru of the time. When Holmgren went to Seatle the Packers stopped trading away young QB’s and stuck with Doug Peterson until they drafted Rodgers.
Ultimately to state that put as much emphasis on a veteran QB forming a younger QB devalues the link between coach and QB. It’s this link that establishes the true powerhouses. Not the linage of who a guy played under.
by PackApologist on Jul 23, 2010 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I believe it's both
Obviously coaches play a huge part in player development or they wouldn’t bother having them at all. But I think a player can learn things from veterans that they can’t from coaches. It’s just the nature of things. Learning from authority vs learning from peers.
It’s a question as old as time. Who had more influence on your growing up; your parents or your friends? I think that can vary from person to person, but I don’t think either learning source should be discredited at the expense of the other.
As for how that view pertains to Jackson, Childress and Bevell have been working on him for 4 years and I’ve seen improvement. But Favre is that peer influence he has not had up until now, a missing piece of his development puzzle as far as I’m concerned. And I think that could pay huge dividends for Jackson down the road.
I have to agree with PA
I think it’s 90% coaching and maybe 10% QB. Obviously I"m not putting in talent into this equation. Right now I’m not impressed with our QB coach at all.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
It was because they were learning from Holmgren, who was seen as a QB guru of the time.
Not too mention guys like Steve Mariucci and Andy Reid.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 4:52 AM CDT up reply actions
It’s true. Really more credit should go to those guys cause Holmgren really didn’t export many guys when was in Seattle.
Reid has started to export QB’s out in Philly, but I don’t think in a good way.
by PackApologist on Jul 25, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
This is a good point. I don’t think Jackson has all the tools to be a really good Qb though. His accuracy is far too poor for him to every be a great passer in the league. Now maybe he’s improved this, and if he proves to have then I’ll shut my mouth. But up to this point in his career, the accuracy hasn’t been there.
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
He really does, especially in an offense that’s pretty much based off a short, quick timing routes. Most of his completions come from passes that are thrown beneath the Lb’s, with some coming occasionally on deep balls. He struggles to make the intermediate throw, which leads me to believe he struggles to read coverage. He has a hard time throwing the ball into windows, and that’s a problem in the NFL.
by packallday555 on Jul 25, 2010 3:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Heck I used to watch tons of tape
Was pretty good at my position to, but I still would have been a terrible qb.
Sorry long ago I stated I wasn’t going to lay the hammer down on TJ again in respect for the last argument we all got into on him.
Remember third round pick.. I don’t even think the leprechaun is respecting him anymore.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
With all due respect
How many hours did you watch tape? NFL QB’s do that as a full time job.
And obviously watching tape by itself doesn’t make every Joe Shmoe a good QB. But it can make a good QB great.
Not 40 hours a week by any stretch but I did and do watch it regularly. Hell I have a player at the house so I can do it when there's nothing on TV.
Now that is just plain sad.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Don’t get me wrong, I think that will help him out but going out there and actually reading the defense, trying to figure out if there are any blitzes, or OL shifts is much harder then it is just watching someone on tape who does it well. And too me, that was always Jackson’s biggest problem. It just seemed like he struggled to recognize coverages, and see where the blitzes were coming from. A lot of the time he didn’t make the correct OL shift (if one at all), and he really never audibled out of plays, though I think that had more to do with Chilly.
All I’m saying is he still has a lot to prove in his game. I don’t think sitting behind Favre for one year is going to make all the problems go away. Just my opinion.
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Again
Don’t get me wrong, I think that will help him out but going out there and actually reading the defense, trying to figure out if there are any blitzes, or OL shifts is much harder then it is just watching someone on tape who does it well.
We’re not talking about him watching tape OF Favre. He could do that any time. We’re talking about him watching tape of the Vikings opponents WITH Favre. Favre pointing out the little tells he’s picked up over the years, Favre explaining why he would audible out of a certain play when the defense lines up a certain way, Favre explaining every shift.
Jackson has had an entire season to absorb that, and study the playbook that he apparently had difficulty fully digesting. That alone will mean a noticeable improvement. Throw in the confidence boost that comes from knowing you’re better at your job than you were a year ago, and I think we’ll see a very different TJack when he next sees the field.
Do you know what made Aaron Rodgers the QB he is?
I’m always surprised that more people don’t know this, but MM instituted something called QB college the first year he was here. Basically it’s a two week boot camp for the QB’s on the team where they look over film and go over mechanics. It’s just MM the O-coordinator and the QB coach.
It’s designed to help slow the game down for the QB, help the QB make better reads, and quicken the decision making that happens during the play. McCarthy has been running this for a while and many of the QB’s he’s worked with over the years have pointed to this as a key reason for their success (Rich Gannon being one of the more notable).
It’s moments like this which help form a QB more than simply watching film with a veteran.
I’m not saying the Farve’s time with isn’t helping some, it probably does. But really, if you are hoping T-Jack gets better than you should put your faith in Brad Childress’ ability to form and grow this young QB. If you believe he can do it, great. If you don’t think he can then worry.
by PackApologist on Jul 23, 2010 1:25 AM CDT up reply actions
But really, if you are hoping T-Jack gets better than you should put your faith in Brad Childress’ ability to form and grow this young QB. If you believe he can do it, great. If you don’t think he can then worry.
Right, because who knows how Chilly will look calling the offense without having a Qb who probably knows how to run the system better then he and Bevell together. Willy Chilly revert back to being an ultra predictable play caller? Will he finally allow Jackson to make adjustments at the line? The problem is, defenses will likely approach your offense an entirely different way without Favre. My guess would be, you won’t line up in nearly as 3+ Wr sets as you did with Favre. It’ll probably be back to a Single back formation, as well as a lot of I-formation. Sure, the 3+ Wr’s sets will be there, just not nearly as much as they were with Favre. Jackson won’t have the same luxury of having opposing defenses spread out as much as Favre, which will in turn make finding the soft spots more difficult.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 5:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
But we still saw a lot of 8 and 9 man fronts last season. Even as good as Brett was, putting 7 men in the box against AP is still the best way to lose a game against the Vikings.
I’m hopeful that Childress is improving as a coach. To that end, I am hoping that he sticks with lots of 3 WR sets since that is the best talent we can put on the field. Berrian, Rice, Harvin, Shiancoe and Peterson on the field at the same time is undoubtedly one of the more dangerous (if not the most dangerous) skill position groups available in the league today.
To that end, I am hoping that he sticks with lots of 3 WR sets since that is the best talent we can put on the field.
It’s clear that, that was when you had the success last season. When you guys spread teams out your offense was nearly unstoppable. You never ran a whole lot of spread formations with Jackson but at the same time, you also didn’t have Harvin when Jackson was Qb.
You’d think he’d like to stick with lots of 3 Wr sets but will Jackson be able to run them? Or better yet, does he have the confidence in Jackson to run them?
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I can understand the point your making now as well but for a guy who has had some confidence/mental issues in the past, it’s not like it’s a guarantee he’s going to out there and remember all the things Favre told them, while executing a great deal of them as well. You can have somebody explain something to you in great detail but it still doesn’t always translate to success when trying to do it yourself. I guess that’s ultimately the point I’m trying to get across.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 4:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Also
Favre can’t help Jackson with his awareness problem. He still desperately needs to learn how when to tuck it and run vs. when to wait it out. He also needs to recognize where pressure is coming from, whether it be up the middle or out on the edges. He struggles a great deal with both, and it often results in a poor pass/decision (and occasionally one of his famous jump passes.)
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 5:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Knowledge is power
The best way to gain confidence, as a QB, is to know that you know what the defense is doing and what they are going to do in a given situation and to know your own playbook perfectly. This can come from experience or from study (or both). There is no doubt in my mind that Jackson is better in this regard than he was last time he was on the field.
You can have somebody explain something to you in great detail but it still doesn’t always translate to success when trying to do it yourself. I guess that’s ultimately the point I’m trying to get across.
No, it doesn’t always. It’s just a matter of half empty vs half full I think. Favre could help Jackson in all of the areas he’s struggled. It’s also possible that Favre’s help won’t make a difference. But that opportunity to get better is there, whether he takes it or not and that’s what I’m looking at.
by Cobra312004 on Jul 24, 2010 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Teams would, again, stack the box and force Tarvaris to beat them. Can he do it? History says no. I’m skeptical. Would he better this year? I would think so, but again, I’d have to see it first.”
I think if we end up seeing Jackson anytime this year or when he is our starter after Favre retires we all will be pleasantly surprised. Statistically he’s improved every year and I’m sure like everyone has said sitting behind Favre for a year has to help. As long as he stays confident I’m sure Jackson will be just fine.
I hope you're right.
But “fine” with Tarvaris is far different than Brett Favre, you know? Jackson isn’t an elite QB. He has the tools, and I’m sure he’s improving, but is it enough? I just don’t know.
I’m basically just saying that the drop off from Favre to Jackson, or Favre to any non-elite QB is substantial. I’d say Favre is worth three to four wins above a non-elite QB. That’s all I’m saying.
Skol Vikings!
Woot Woot!
Now having a better supporting cast than the ten win 08 team
If T.Jack is even a hair better, why not 11 wins with him starting.
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
QB????
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
The skill guys are better but I don’t know if I’d say your team in 2010 was much better then your team in 2008. In 2008, your OL, and defense were dominant. The only thing holding that team back really was Jackson. In 2010, Rice and Harvin emerged but your OL regressed, as did the defense to a degree (probably due to injuries).
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually
The defense was ranked 6th in total yards in 2008 and 2009. In 2009 they led the league in sacks. They also allowed fewer points per game than in 2008. We went from 4th in the league in 3rd down conversion % to 3rd in the league (the percentage was still the same though). We also had one of the league’s best redzone defenses in 2009. We did drop from 1st in rush defense to 2nd, but that was probably a fluke since the Packers gave up as many rush yards in your one playoff game as we did in both of ours combined.
The O line did take a step backwards for some reason, but it was from top 10 to top 15 kind of regression. Sack totals actually improved substantially believe it or not (43 down to 34). Rice was lightyears better in 09 than 08 and Harvin is a clear step up from Bobby Wade no matter how you cut it.
I’d actually say our 2009 team was much better than our 2008 team. And our 2010 team could be better still.
Still the main problem is your comparing apples to oranges
TJ did not play the majority of 2008 so stating that if he’s better we should do better than we did in 2008 is as valid as saying if he’s better we should do better than we did in 2009, which is complete rubbish.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
In 2008
Gus was garbage and a good running game and great D helped him go 8-3 in his starts. 59.1% completion with 12TDs to 15INTs, with 29sacks against is not good. I would bet all the money I had to say that if T.Jack started this year would put up better #s than that.
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
reason Gus came in wasn't because his numbers were better than TJ's
Although they were (by a very slim margin) but because he could run more than four plays out of the play book. As well he could read the other teams D and hopefully manage the game better.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I'd take T.Jack's 2008 #s over Gus'
TJ: 9TD/2INT, 1056yards, 59.1%… in 5 games started
95.4 QB rating.
GF: 12TD/15INT, 2157yards, 59.1%… in 11 games started
73.7 QB rating.
Scew the #s how ever you want, but by seasons end TJ was the better QB and that is why Chilly went with him.
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
Total yards isn’t always a great indicator of how good a defense is. We were #2, and surely we weren’t near being the second best defense in the league, let alone even in the top 10-12.
I think your secondary took a step down from last season. It didn’t seem like KWill and Pat were always able to collapse the pocket the way they did in 2008.
How much of Sidney’s improved game had to due with a great Qb though? I realize he had injuries in the past, so I really didn’t know. Yes, Harvin is far better, your not going to get an argument from me there. No doubt, his Wr play will be better but he still has to get them the ball, which he has struggled to do so far in the league.
I guess it’s just a matter of opinion. I think if Favre had played on your 2008 team, you guys would have won the SB fairly easily. With the OL playing at the level they were in 2008, you guys would have been even more dominant then you were this season.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 5:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Sidney improved a lot before Favre was even a twinkle in Childress' eye
Sidney spent most of 2008 injured, which was extremely disappointing after seeing some flashes in his 2007 rookie season (though he did manage 4 TD’s on just 15 catches). But no one was more frustrated than he was.
He worked extremely hard during the offseason last year, spending several months working out with Chris Carter and Larry Fitzgerald. While the media was speculating about the recently released Favre last June, coaches were raving about Rice during OTA’s (something that went largely unnoticed because of the aforementioned Favre watch).
It’s also commonly understood that WR’s typically take about 3 years to really click in the NFL, and his 3rd season also happened to coincide with Favre’s arrival. But in a way it’s unfortunate that Favre came along when he did, because he gets so much credit for Sidney’s development. If Sidney hadn’t put in the work he did last offseason, he wouldn’t have been in a position to become Favre’s go to receiver.
As to our defense, they were worse in points allowed (especially when you factor in special teams TD’s in 2008) and interception numbers were down. But I don’t think we were significantly worse, and many would still argue we were better in 09. I disagree about the Williams Wall though, I think they collapsed the pocket just fine (again, we led the league in sacks and, I believe, in pressures).
Our offensive line was a step down from 2008 but that’s mainly because we were starting a new RT and new C really. Chemistry is important on the offensive line, and our guys took time to gel. They should be much better this season.
As to your prediciton, no we wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl in 2008. Rice was hurt most of the season and Harvin wasn’t there yet. Even Shiancoe wasn’t very good for the first half of 2008. Our offense wouldn’t have been nearly as good as last year and we didn’t have a viable replacement for EJ Henderson in 2008.
Favre holds onto the ball
Much more than T.Jack. It is worth it as he makes more plays, but that combined with 2 first time starters on the line in Loadholt and Sullivan and you can see why it wasent great. They will be better after a season together and after a year with Favre to adjust to how he operates. The Winfield injury hurt and he should have stayed out for the season because he was not the same when he returned.
Simply put it isn’t out of the question to think the Vikes could win 11 games with T.Jack as they are a better theam than they were in 08. The only thing that could knock them down to 9 or 10 wins is the tougher schedule after winning the division.
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
Honestly for that to happen we need to open the line up more
and make TJ into a 40% running QB. Ala Vick.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
If They fake a handoff to AP and
AP goes one way and TJ the other… I see where your goin’ with this.
I’d rather see him stay in the pocket more than running 40% of the time though.
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
Because he didn't play the majority of the season?
Or where you tlaking about bringing Gus back?
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Like I said before
Gus was terrible and never got back in after he missed a few games due to injury but was deemed healthy, Why? T.Jack was playing better so thats who Chilly went with. Gus threw 15INTs in 11 games!!!!!!!!!! That isn’t why the Vikes went 8-3 during that stretch. If anything he held them back from going 10-1 during that stretch.
Favre, even your agent has had enough. The drunken grillmaster, Buzz Cook, is getting too old for this.
I agree on that part saying that Favre gets us two or three extra wins. However, people shouldn’t be incredibly worried if Favre does go down or doesn’t come back. We will still make a run in the playoffs under Jackson. I would like to see him sit this year behind Favre though it would be good for him. I don’t think Jackson will ever be an elite quarterback but I can see him being an above average to good quarterback for a few years. A “mobile gunslinger” if you will.
You make good arguments for TJack
The question I have for those who have confidence in TJack is why does the front office not offer him a decent contract? I would think that he should at least make equivalent to Sage.
If the front office does not do something (and they still can) then what does that say about him?
Chilly says things in the papers about how TJack is getting better and all that but when it comes time to give him some money, well so far it is a different story.
The money talks and the rest walks.
It's not about talent, it's about money
The NFL is a business, and they can pay him at a cut rate, essentially. He was tendered at a third round rate, which no one matched. The Vikings gambled, and won. Had somebody offered him a bigger contract, the Vikes would have had to match or let him walk.
If his performance increases, his demand will…and so will his paycheck.
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
This is true
And any business can do this.
But they run the risk of the player wanting to leave and go somewhere else.
Fair is fair.
If TJack is second string and making 2 mil less than Sage then that is not fair.
In fact, even if they cut Sage, TJack would be woefully underpaid as a backup QB.
Only crappy organizations treat their players like cattle.
The Vikings are getting close to that line. They do not want to pay Edwards. They are underpaying TJack. They are underpaying Rice. They are probably underpaying Greenway.
All in the name of “business”.
These are key parts to the team and should get new deals. Even with the 30% rule they can be given two year deals that would actually save money in 2011. It would cost some bonus money now but Wilf has already said money is not an object.
I think all but Edwards should get a new deal. And that may take about 20 mil in bonus money. Edwards will probably be traded. With Griffen on board it does not look like he will be resigned and I am always in favor of getting something in return (draft pick).
With the depth of the offensive line in question I could see trading him for a lineman and a pick. But it probably will not happen.
Good businesses treat their employees fairly!
Only crappy organizations treat their players like cattle.
I am going to disagree with you on that sentiment. All organizations treat their players “like cattle” till said players can find leverage through play on the field or their contract running low on years. Every organization has asked players to take pay cuts, lower than expected tenders, and low balled contract offers. They may be under paying some players currently because they are outplaying their rookie contracts, but that is nothing new. Any business will continue to pay over-performing workers less money if they can get away with it. Once they realize they could lose said employee, they will offer promotions or pay increases. Its a risk/reward game, like trying to sneak a player through waivers onto the practice squad, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t.
True
But the Vikings do not need to behave that way especially with the 3 or 4 players mentioned.
Greenway,. Rice, TJack, & Edwards all deserve new deals. Paying them now for two years will actually save the team money in 2011 when they will be forced to pay them or watch them leave.
I am not talking about everyone on the roster. Just the prime time starters or a valuable backup in TJack.
I foresee them giving out some deals during the year.
Next year the cap could be lower and they may want to dabble in free agency (LB, OT, & S come to mind).
The Vikings should make players around the league WANT to come to Minnesota because they see that the Vikings treat guys fairly.
Ha you called TJ valuable.
I’m taking a screen shot of this!
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
The Vikings should make players around the league WANT to come to Minnesota because they see that the Vikings treat guys fairly.
Again, I am not seeing where you are coming from with this statement. If free agents in the league look at what the organization has done for the likes of Brett Favre, Jared Allen, Steve Hutchinson, Jamie Kennedy, Benny Sapp, Bernard Berrian, Visanthe Shiancoe, Ben Leber, and Mideu Williams when they came in and (for a few, resigned after being here) than money and contracts aren’t their biggest worry. Perhaps a adversity to cold weather, but not because they think the Vikings FO won’t pay them what they are worth. You can even extend that list to include Byrant McKinnie, Antonie Winfield, Anthony Herrera, Phat Pat, and E.J. Henderson as players who have been on the team that received extensions and promotions that showed a lot of faith from the current FO. Even more so when you consider the trouble the McKinnie has been in and they still have his back.
I have plenty of faith and have seen absolutely nothing (as in true, tangible evidence) to suggest that they won’t do what they can to keep at the very least 3 of the 4 you mentioned, if not all 4.
Generally
The Vikings have a pretty positive reputation of taking care of their guys and locking them up long term (Winfield, McKinnie and EJ extensions). They also have a reputation of letting guys walk if they are too expensive and have a replacement on the roster (Birk and Sharper come to mind).
The team has historically addressed contract extensions during the preseason and regular season. I would expect to see Rice sign a lengthy extension by week 6 or 7, probably the same for Greenway. Jackson could be earlier, since he is not getting paid like a 2nd string/QB of the future. I’d expect them to sign him to an extension during the preseason, though perhaps not a long one. Edwards, I’d like to sign but it might be hard to justify with Griffen in line behind him.
What have they done lately is the point
Winfield, Allen, Hutch, & Favre were all high profile fee agent signings from several years ago besides Fave.
Shiancoe, Leber, & Madieu were lower level free agent signings.
They gave Winfield a new deal, Cedric Griffen a new deal before his 4th year, EJ a new deal in December of his 4th year, and signed Sapp & Kennedy to new two year deals this off season.
The players they need to PAY NOW are Rice, Greenway, & Edwards with AP not too far behind.
They have paid some players in the past but right now, at this moment, they are using the CBA status as a reason for not resigning their own guys.
Next year the cap will be lower if the owners get their way. The Vikings have quite a few free agents that they will need to get signed if they want to keep them or else they will look to the draft or sign less expensive free agents.
Rice, Greenway, Edwards, Robison, Leber, TJack, Evans, Ryan Cook, Frampton, Abdullah, Sheppard, Tahi, Erin H, Onatolu, Mitchell, & Montgomery all will be free agents after this year.
Of course several may not even make the team this year and they maynot be wanted back next year.
But the big money guys are there in Rice, Greenway, Edwards, Leber, & TJack. Not to mention if Favre decides to play again and PWill wants to play another year. The Vikings will have to decide on them too.
And of course, free agency will be huge next year with all of the RFAs from this year finally hitting the open market. The Viking fans will surely want the team to acquire one or two players.
That will be a lot of bonus money next year. And they may want to redo APs deal too.
The fact of the matter is at this moment, they are not willing to give Edwards or TJack new deals. Both players clearly deserve to be paid more than what they are going to receive this year.
That is where my comments come from. Other players on the team and around the league can see what time it is. Yeah they may still come to Minnesota for the cash but that does not change the facts.
IMHO the Vikings should take care of Rice, Greenway, & TJack before this year is over and hopefully before it starts. Because of the 30% rules I think they should do two year deals and revisit them in 2011.
Edwards should be given a new deal as well unless they are going to trade him for draft picks.
My point was that all of those players mentioned and even the one I missed that happened “lately”, Cedric Griffin, shows a track record, a history of how the FO handles these situations. All those players regardless of how long ago there contract were made, were signed by the people currently running the Vikings and it should be used as the bases for how to expect any new deals to go down.
Its also important to remember that every team is using the lack of a future CBA in negotiating and you can’t compare what one team does vs another for two reasons: A)they aren’t being run by the same people (should the Vikings really follow the crazy contracts that the Raiders have offered and handcuff themselves?) and B)The Vikings aren’t a big market team like the Jets,Cowboys, or even Denver (whose ownership doesn’t have to worry about stadium issues and resides in a bigger market than Minnesota) and don’t have the extra overhead and cash on hand to create big contracts without a CBA to help structure them.
You seem to think that they have to be “PAID NOW” or somehow they will walk away or hold out, but depending on what you think of the Peterson situation (who is being paid quite well with all his escalators and I believe when he says its a not issue) and Edwards, none of the players mentioned have shown any displeasure or offered threats. As long as they get some kind of offer between now and the end of the Vikings season, its more something that is and should be on the back burner for fans and not something to be paranoid over. Every one is under contract whether they like their current contract or not and they will be Vikings for the foreseeable future.
Agreed
And all I am saying is that s of right now there is nothing.
As a fan, I would hope that they would be active in free agency next off season.
Therefore I am banging the drum on getting some of these guys tied up now for at least a couple of years.
All of us pretty much agree that we would like Rice & Greenway around for many more years.
As you said, Denver just gave Dumervil a new deal. And they do have the money.
But Wilf himself said in the off season that money is not an issue.
I would not expect new deals to cost more than 25 mil in bonus money to Wilf.
If he does not have it then so be it but he said it himself and that is all I can go by.
Even if he were to sell the new owners would want him to run it like he was going to keep it and trying to win the Super Bowl.
So with an uncapped year, I would hope they would lock at least those two and AP too for many years in order to alleviate the cap situation in 2011.
That is my thinking.
Definitely appreciate what you are saying. I want them signed up badly as well cause I think they can be cornerstones if locked up, but got to appreciate that they still have a bunch of draft picks to sign before camp, they are constantly dealing with the state legislature and, trying to find new revenue steams. Wilf is being pulled in lots of directions, but I really believe he will do whatever it takes to build a championship team and do whats right for the Vikings.
You know how I feel about TJ Ted
So I will save you a long post detailing all of the reasons why I think Jackson will be a great QB when Favre does hang it up for good.
I would however like to focus on one area that has bothered me for months. And that is, as you’ve touched on brilliantly, the wide receiver corps.
I feel very strongly that WAY too much credit for our passing offense went to Favre last year. Obviously, he was a huge boon, both in terms of production and progression of our younger receivers. But people generally forget how much talent there is in our WR group.
In 2009, Sidney Rice put in his best offseason of work yet, working out with Larry Fitzgerald and Chris Carter for months. Fitzgerald even said that Rice was a better athlete than him. He was poised for a banner year already. Percy Harvin was a top 5 talent who fell in the draft for personal questions, so his tremendous rookie season should surprise exactly no one. Players with his ability come along very rarely. Visanthe Shiancoe, though he severely increased his TD totals (which, historically, can be attributed to Favre) was coming off a 600 yard/breakout 2008. Berrian has two seasons of nearly 1,000 yards (including 1 with a Bears offense SO bad that it probably would have translated to about 1,500 yards on a normal team).
The biggest area that Favre helped this team on offense, in my opinion at least, was the confidence he instilled in them. Ever since before Childress arrived (and this predates Jackson) the team has lacked the swagger on offense that we had grown accustomed to during the “Purple Pride” years of high flying offense. We were a timid offense, even with Adrian Peterson pounding defensive backs into the ground every other play. That Childress referred to our offense as “kick ass” became a running joke in the blogosphere.
Favre changed all that. From Sidney Rice, to Visanthe Shiancoe to Greg Lewis, all of our offensive skill players were empowered to believe in their own capabilities. One need only listen to interviews or even read quotes in the newspaper. It was clear that our offense got it’s swagger back. Even losses late in the season did nothing to deter this teams confidence. Just look at the way our offense stormed back against the Bears in that OT loss at Soldier Field. In the cold, in hostile conditions, down 16 points at halftime and coming off 4 consecutive futile quarters, the offense put up 30 points in the second half. Even in that 2nd half they faced missed field goals, defensive misfires and special teams mistakes that only seemed to strengthen their resolve.
And that is something that I believe will remain, whether Favre is quarterback or not.
+1
Well said
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
Ok here's reality
TJ was bad, they took him out for Gus. Gus was not much better. Now they sure didn’t put TJ back in when Gus turned out to be a mediocre game manager did they? Nope, they waited tell Gus injured himself.
You can’t state that TJ took us to the playoffs when he played less than a quarter of the season. That makes no sense. TJ has problems, nothing I’ve seen has led me to believe he has rectified them. Our line is not opening holes like it did, so I don’t see AD saving this team on his own. We no longer have the #1 running D Phat Pat is on the decline there is no other way to think about it. We are on the cusp of greatness and without favre we fall from that cusp to being maybe third in this conference.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I think it's worth mentioning
We were winning games. Only an idiot benches their starting QB when you’re winning. The exact same thing happened to Kerry Collins that year too.
As for playing “a quarter of the season”, who knows what Jackson would have done had they left him in that year? If Shiancoe catches that sure TD in the Indy game, we win and Jackson doesn’t get benched.
But he didn’t, and had Jackson continued to play things probably wouldn’t have turned out great. I mean, there’s a reason he got benched. He was playing some really, really poor football. Throwing balls at guys feet, and showing basically no awareness out there. He was better when he came back but he also played against some of the worst pass defenses in the league that season. Honestly, I don’t think it surprised any body to see him struggle as greatly as he did in the Philly game. He hadn’t, and hasn’t really ever shown the ability to lead you guys to a victory over a great team. I realize you guys have had decent records with him but I think that was largely due to have AP, a dominant OL, and a dominant DL (when Pat was still at his best).
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
He got benched for a number of reasons
Of them winning was one. Childress’s job was another. I remember Childress stating that he could not run the whole play book with TJ and that is why the play calling was so nuetered (even for Chilly) and got more involved when Gus got out there. However, the most telling thing I heard in that time was that Childress stated he and TJ had a long talk after practice one night and in that talk TJ confided that when he was on the field he wasn’t trying to win he was just trying not to lose. That isn’t a good quality to have in your starting QB.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
That conversation was almost two years ago
I think he has more confidence in himself now. Heck, I think he had more confidence in himself when he came back later in the season.
You can talk all you want about how he played against Philly but the truth is that is very common for QB’s in their first playoff game. There were 3 or 4 other young/first time QB’s in the playoffs that year that also put together some horrid games. Eli Manning was an experienced QB and he played just as badly against the Eagles.
I have an issue with Philly but you are right
that is common in anyone coming into a high pressure game. I don’t think he has the nuts to stand up in the lime light. That is a personal feeling and I don’t expect others to share it (although you’re wrong if you don’t) :)
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I can appreciate that
I just get tired of all my friends who hate on TJ all the time, then when you call them on it, they all just point to the Philly game. Usually it’s not even a reasoned argument, just “Did you see him against Philly in the playoffs?”. It also annoys me to no end that many of these same people had been singing Jackson’s praises in the weeks leading up to that game. Yay for fair weather fans!
I believe Tarvaris can (and behind the scenes, perhaps has) become a very good QB in this league. You can ask Ted, I have never wavered on this opinion since we drafted him. I do, however, think that it’s sink or swim next time he gets the chance to start.
Bottom line, none of us will know for sure until we get to see him in a game that actually matters again, so who knows when that will be. Until then we can fill our days with this.
Also...
We no longer have the #1 running D Phat Pat is on the decline there is no other way to think about it.
We were #2 against the run by about 4 yards per game and we were missing EJ and Winfield for long stretches of the season. I hardly consider our run defense in decline.
And considering what the 28th ranked Cardinals rushing attack was able to do to the “#1” rushing defense in the playoffs (156 yards), I feel pretty good about our chances to reclaim our crown.
I still don't know how the Pack was ranked that high
Watching them it didn’t seem they were that stout. Maybe it was because they were so easy to throw against! :D
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Haha so one bad game from the run defense makes our ranking a fluke? How flukey were we when held AP to 55 yards? Ray Rice to 61 yards? Gore to 59 yards? Dallas’ Rb’s to 39 yards? Mendenhall to 38 yards? All those guys are pretty good, and had pretty good seasons. The entire defense played terrible in our playoff game. We picked a bad game to have our worst defensive showing of the season.
by packallday555 on Jul 24, 2010 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's get some stories behind those numbers
Jackson went for 114 on you guys and he was the only player on the Rams.
Yes, you held Mendenhall to 38 yards but you let Roethlisberger go for 500 through the air.
Yes, you held Gore to 59 yards…on 8 carries. The only reason he didn’t have more was because they had to play catchup the whole game after giving up 17 unanswered in the 2nd quarter.
Shutting down Ray Rice was pretty good. I will give you that one.
But the Cowboys only ran 11 times. And it was for 45 yards. And it was at Lambeau…in November (and the Ravens were at Lambeau in December now that I mention it).
You held AP to 55 (97 at Lambeau). But that’s because you dared Favre to beat you, and he did. Soundly. Twice.
I’d agree that our defense is overrated but it’s the passing defense that lead too that not the run defense.
Yea it seems like a decent assessment. I’ll say your run defense was good, but not #1 in the league. The question is was your pass defense just that bad or did it suffer at the expense of you stacking your run defense (like it did against the Vikings)?
My argument has never been that our run defense is the best in the league. I’ve simply said we were statistically ranked as the best. I’ve also said something the post that I don’t think we’re actually the best run defense in the league, like the ranking indicates. And that I thought we were probably top 5 though.
I don’t think the pass defense struggled because of us stacking the box in any of our games aside from our week 4 game against you guys. In our later games against you guys, the Steelers, and the Cardinals the pass defense struggled because we were rushing 3 to 4, while dropping everyone back into coverage. We didn’t have a good enough pass rush to the help out the secondary (like you guys), and we also had a special teams guy (or our 6th Cb at the beginning of the season) at nickel, and a guy off the street at dime. Having your 2nd, 4th, and 5th Cb’s go down with injuries sucks.
by packallday555 on Jul 25, 2010 4:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Nice post Cobra
Confidence, swagger, a belief. Don’t under estimate a team that believes in themselves. We won 2 more regular season games & one of them was the miracle at the metrodome.
So based on having Percy, & Rice’s improvement we weren’t really that much better than the previous year. The real change was the post season. Kicking the Cowboys asses all over the dome. Going into New Orleans & out playing them. Only screw up after screw up did we finally lose that one. Hell if we win the dam coin toss we might not even be saying wait til next year.
I don't think anyone can argue there would be a dropoff in the passing game
should Favre decide to retire for good this time, but having TJ back there would add yet another dimension to our O by having the threat to do some serious damage from the QB positon provided he doesn’t fumble it away or get injured. I’m excited to see what, if any strides Tarvaris has made in his overall game.
I would be excited to see John Travolta and Tom Cruise fly through the sun
With nothing but L Ron Hubbards retardo religion keeping them safe.
Oh wait, this has nothing to do with your argument, I just really would like to see that happen.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
“He struggled most with reading opposing defenses (pre-snap reads/where the blitz is coming from), his accuracy, and his awareness. "
I’ve said this before and their is an article floating around that quotes Favre as saying it took him 8 years or something like that to accurately read defenses. So I think that comes naturally with watching tape and learning to watch for specific things in the defense before the snap. It also comes with experience. What he lacks in his passing game Jackson makes up for on his feet.
“You can’t state that TJ took us to the playoffs when he played less than a quarter of the season. That makes no sense. TJ has problems, nothing I’ve seen has led me to believe he has rectified them.”
You haven’t been able to see anything because Favre has been here since then. If you’re like most ordinary fans I’m sure you don’t go to practices,etc. I’d also have to disagree on that because the times we did see Jackson this year he more than managed the game even if it was just scrub time. He also played well in the preseason.
Yeah, maybe it’ll just take Jackson some time but at the same time, Favre still managed to has some above average seasons within his first 8 years in the league. Jackson has not.
I’d also have to disagree on that because the times we did see Jackson this year he more than managed the game even if it was just scrub time. He also played well in the preseason.
While this may be true, he was still doing this against either back-ups, or teams that were down by like 15-25 points. It doesn’t mean a whole lot to play well in situations that don’t matter.
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Last year was his 4th season
The 4th season was when QB’s like Drew Brees and Tony Romo first found success. Jackson’s was stymied somewhat by being relegated to 3rd and 4th quarter scrub time (though it wasn’t really against backups). And while it doesn’t mean a lot to play well in those situations, it doesn’t mean nothing either.
Again I would put Brees, and Romo's numbers up against TJ's in the first four years
and I think you would see a difference in their suckitude. :D (just call me Webster)
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Well, since you brought it up...
Romo didn’t attempt a pass for hist first 3 seasons so that’s gonna be kind of hard to compare. He was given the benefit of watching from the bench, instead of being thrust into situations he wasn’t ready for.
Brees is a future HoFer at this point but people forget that he was a complete wash his first three years in the league. The Chargers drafted Philip Rivers after his 3rd season after all, and everyone expected him to beat our Brees to start right away. And they were right, Brees had shown little to warrant the starting job.
Brees’ completion % through his first 3 seasons was 59%, Jackson’s was 58%. Brees threw 29 TD’s and 31 ints, Jackson threw 20 TD’s and 18 ints (it’s worth noting here that Brees had started 8 more games at that point than Jackson did). In their 3rd season, Brees threw for 2,108 yards in 11 starts and Jackson threw for 1,056 yards in 5.5 starts (came in at half in Detroit so we’ll count that as half a game). In case you’re wondering, that’s less than 1 yard different per game.
Hmm, what else. Jackson was sacked less (47 to 41) but Brees fumbled less (9 to 14). Though both fumbled 5 times and lost 3 in their 3rd season.
I’m certainly not suggesting that Jackson will be as good as Drew Brees someday. Then again, back in 2004, no one thought Drew Brees would be as good as Drew Brees someday either.
Well we can sure hope he will be
My fondest dream is that TJ turns it around and makes me look like an idiot.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
But Favre also didn't completely suck in the previous eight years.
I’m not saying TJ can’t one day be the next Payton (ok I am) if he has eight years to sit and watch, but we certainly don’t want to waste eight years waiting for that to happen. Also, Childress’s offensive scheme doesn’t really play to TJ’s strengths. Chilly calls a WCO which relies on the QB to make smart reads and be very accurate. In a Martz scheme which requires a stronger arm someone like TJ may do much better. I don’t know.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
The captions
are always funny & clever.
One of the first things I normally look at.
by Deek on Jul 22, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
T-Jack
From what I saw in 2007-2008, Tarvaris’ poor play wasn’t solely because of Tarvaris. In 2007 he had a few really nice deep balls that went right through Troy Williamson’s hands. That guy couldn’t catch a cold. Same could be said for Shiancoe. Perhaps working with a verteran QB helped, but before Shiancoe came on strong midway through the 2008 season, he had his share of dropped passes, too. That opening game with the Packers he dropped a nice pass from TJ in the end zone. It also didn’t help that Sidney Rice was hurt through most of 2008, and Berrian always seems to play hurt ever since we got him. Hopefully now that we have some receivers that have figured out how to catch the ball, Tarvaris can play with a little confidence that not all of his passes will be dropped.
When I think of T-Jack
I think of two things that limited him from being great.
1) Inexperienced receiving core (however you want to look that, whether it be that they couldn’t catch, new to the team, hurt/injured etc).
2) Limited playbook (which I believe is the #1 reason of the Favre arrival).
Overall, within this past year, if T-jack has gotten some more plays out of that book, he can probably do a lot more out on the field. With the confidence factor, and more plays, I can’t see why T-Jack could not seem more successful if Favre were to not return (but, we all don’t have to fear that since Favre is coming back.) On a side note: since Favre will likely skip out on the training camp, Tavaris will get more snap time in camp to show his skills.
Agreed.
Another strength of Jackson is his ability to move in the pocket and run with the ball if the opportunity presents itself. I almost hate to say it, but I would’ve rather had T-Jack in on that last play in the Championship game rather than Favre; he would’ve been able to run those 5 yards, instead of tossing the pick. Not that I blame Favre, I think Berrian, Harvin, and especially Peterson all gave up points through their fumbling and Favre’s ankle was probably so shot at that point he wouldn’t have been able to run, but all the more reason they should have considered putting in Jackson at that point (not that Favre would have allowed it :).
Favre would have murdered Chilli
In that situation.
And if T-Jack had fouled up… you know!!!!! Childress would of been canned or fans would of called for his head. If T-Jack did an amazing last second play…. We would of all dropped our jaws and been speechless
Likelihood of:
A) T-Jack fouling up – 99%
B) T-Jack doing an amazing last second play – 0.1%
C) T-Jack getting hurt – 0.9%
by dsludo on Jul 22, 2010 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
2 things
1. Favre fouled up. I don’t think Jackson could have done much worse really.
2. There is certainly middle ground between amazing play and fouling up. Would rushing for 5ish yards have been amazing? No. But it would have put us back in position to win the game. Favre could barely walk, much less scramble for 5 yards.
give me an f'in break
You seriously think if T-jack comes into the nfccg in the 3rd qtr he does anything positive?
A. Jackson would have done much worse. Favre had a good game, some of you need to rewatch that game.
B. Jackson NEVER would have been in the position to only need to rush 5 yards to have a chance to win the game. Unless he came in for Favre on the previous play!
2 reasons why I used the percentages that I used.
First, is that Tjack sucks. Second, is there is almost no tougher environment for a back up qb to come into a game, that’s on the road in the nfccg.
Tarvaris would not have thrown that INT if put in the same position
he would’ve easily ran for 5 yards. I’m not going to blame Brett too much (he does deserve some, he threw it) for that last INT as he was playing on a bum wheel and just trying to make a play. You or I really don’t know what position TJ would’ve been in as we barely got to see him play last season.
that's it we should have just gone wildcat that down.
Put sage and TJ in the backfield had Farve playing left guard and Hutch playing out at WR. I don’t see how that play could fail.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I was thinking more like TJ, Harvin and Reynaud, but
I digress to the Hinterland…
Funny
I was just thinking something similar.
T-jack & Favre in for the play.
T-Jack takes the snap…. Ideally we would assume that T-jack would probably run the ball for 5-10 yards, but only if the defense drops back into cover. If they give a pass rush, T-Jack pitches it back to Favre who passes off to an open receiver..
Could of been a sweet moment for a sweet trick play.
With TJack at the helm, the defense would probably assume it to be a run. W/ Favre still on the field, the defense wouldn’t know what to think.
Pass? Run? Option for both?
I still think your underestimating Favres ability to play guard.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
I'm sorry, who said ANYTHING about the 3rd quarter?
I almost hate to say it, but I would’ve rather had T-Jack in on that last play in the Championship game rather than Favre; he would’ve been able to run those 5 yards, instead of tossing the pick.
Welcome to the conversation.
Do you even remember the game?
3rd qtr is when Favre went down hard, and it would have been the only time where it made sense to explore other options. For Chilly to take out Favre on that last play only and put in TJack (in that specific situation) after Favre drives the team down the field in a very short amount of time without any problem, would have been so ridiculous that its not even worth speaking of.
Perhaps
But that is all anyone here has ever been talking about. We’re specifically talking about that single play, as indicated in the quote above.
A) T-Jack fouling up – 99%
B) T-Jack doing an amazing last second play – 0.1%
C) T-Jack getting hurt – 0.9%
You came into it with a totally different context and began arguing like we all had that 3rd quarter play in mind, without ever mentioning it. It’s logical to assume that you were, in this statement, talking about the single play we all were referring to.
Even after you brought up the 3rd quarter, the conversation continued to be about a single play.
he would’ve easily ran for 5 yards. I’m not going to blame Brett too much (he does deserve some, he threw it) for that last INT as he was playing on a bum wheel and just trying to make a play. You or I really don’t know what position TJ would’ve been in as we barely got to see him play last season.
So if you think that this scenario isn’t even worth speaking of, than don’t. As for me, I am happy to speculate about every play of the season at this point. It’s been about 6 months since I’ve seen the Vikings play and I need something to occupy my thoughts.
You do remember why we needed the 5 yards, right, how we got into that situation?
Because things got all confused, the wrong personnel were on the field, and we couldn’t take another time out? Remember?
So, what you’re proposing is basically this: in a situation where the team is already confused what going on, on a very, very short notice (they just threw the flag and marched us back five years) … figure out you want to do this, yell at TJ to get get off the back bench and put his damn helmet on and run over, tell him what you want him to do and send him in — and heck, while we’re at it, transfer the radio to his helmet maybe? — run him in there to get the team huddled up, line him behind center without having had any chance to warm up, and snap. And of course do that all in 45 seconds so we don’t lose ANOTHER 5 yards for delay of game.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Let’s do it!
He’s always had a beautiful deep ball, the problem is, that’s the only pass he throws really, really well. It’s the little slants, and timing routes that he struggles with, and those plays basically serve as the base for the west coast offense. Having better Wr’s will help him to a degree but he still has to be able to get the ball too them.
by packallday555 on Jul 22, 2010 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions
He does have a great deep ball, much like culpepper
However his next best throw is to peoples shoe laces.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
Well
We know that Jackson has as many NFL wins under his belt as all the other back up QB’s in the NFC north, so there’s that.
Off subject but I’m tired of the bleacher report always writing BS about favre now it’s saying you should take Kolb over favre in the fantasy draft Kolb is ranked 9th and favre is 14th the man had his best season last year and still gets no respect BS SKOL FAVRE!!!!!
I have noticed a trend w/ our luck
In the NFC North as Vikings fans..
When we’re talked down upon, we prove to be better.
I would rather be the complete under-dog of the NFC North than expected NFC Champions….
I’m sure most places have the Pack once again to hit the top. Well consistently should pay off for those people, maybe they’ll get lucky one of them years.
Good Stuff Ted, I particularly like the caption.
by TheBengalAbroad on Jul 24, 2010 7:49 AM CDT reply actions
Thanks
Much appreciated
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Worry about 2010, 2011 there might be a LOCKOUT!
NFL Owners and the NFL Front Office, backed out of the contract with the NFL Players Union. So who knows if there will even be a 2011 NFL Season. The NFL has never really opened their books to show the NFL Players Union the whole complete financial work sheet.
If the NFL Owners and Front Office can not be honest with the players about urine testing, what else is the NFL Owners and Front Office hiding? Oh little things like 1 Billion Dollars off the top of the Season’s Net Profits every year. Call it Hush Money, they take it and tell you to hush up, if you try to get a conversation going on it!
This could be a good time for the Minnesota Vikings to pack up the equipment and truck everything to Los Angles…. if there is a Lock Out in 2011. That is when the lease agreement on the Hubert H. Humphrey Metro Dome expires. What a coincidence. No new stadium, no contract lease, Ziggy is free to take his team and players anywhere someone is willing to build them a Fancy State of the Art Stadium that even Uncle Rich Pennybags (Monopoly) would love. It is all about G..R..E..E..D! LOTS and LOTS of GREED!
Heck even the players are not mortals, like most of us blue collar fans, who punch a clock, and cannot afford to pay the price of the tickets to see the home games…….
Rich get Richer, the common man get the sxxxy end of the stick and have to pick up the tab!
After the Williams Affair, there is nothing the NFL Commissioner would love to do more, than to announce that the Minnesota Vikings are moving to Los Angles!
Everyone we meet in life give us happiness, some by their arrival, others by their departure!
Relax, the sky isn't falling yet
The funny thing about both of these issues is that there really isn’t much incentive to get a deal done sooner. I know this is not an exact analysis, but when you look at it you see the same themes in each negotiations. In each case both sides have little to lose at this point stone walling the other. As things get closer both sides will have too much to lose by not getting a deal done. Sure the owners have insulated themselves just in case and the players are supposed to be stuffing their mattresses with money, but when the time comes some form of agreement will come. After all there are already potential solutions being kicked around such as the 18 game season and developmental leagues.
On the stadium side it’s a very similar picture. The elections are going to put the discussion off, but when the last minute comes around each side will start the serious talking. The state does not want to lose the Vikings. Wilf does not want his family name to be hated in MN the way the name Modell is hated in Cleveland. He probably also does not want to sell a franchise that he put lots of money in to stabilize and make relevant again. Again, each side will have too much to lose and so some sort of deal will get done.
by PackApologist on Jul 25, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Good take.
I think you’re right on both issues and hope they get taken care of when the right time comes.
by CanadianViking on Jul 25, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
To all T-Jack haters all I can say is this...
The guys in the Viking’s locker room are behind him and believe in him, those are the guys who practice with him and know him as a player way better than anybody here on this board. The sad thing is if T-Jack had to step in and he led our Vikings to the title all his naysayers would still not give him any credit and say it was the team around him. So I’ll take his teamate’s opinions over anyone else’s and support him and all my beloved Vikings.
Skol Vikings!
Didn’t read the new article about AP he said he’s going to beg favre to come back and he knows they cant win the big one without him dont get me wrong i like TJ i was a big supporter of him before favre but i just dont think he’s quite cooked yet if you know what i mean he might get there with 1 more year behind favre only time will tell SKOL VIKES!!!
by cali viking on Jul 25, 2010 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
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