Sage or TJ, TJ or Sage...I Don't See This As Controversial At All
by Ted Glover on Sep 1, 2010 10:13 PM CDT
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PrintWith the cutdown to 53 players fast approaching, and the regular season kick off next Thursday, the Vikings will have some decisions to make. The general consensus during the off-season was that the three quarterbacks for 2010 would be the same quarterbcaks for 2009---Brett Favre, Tarvaris Jackson, and Sage Rosenfels. Well, Joe Webb has seemed to have thrown a wrench into that conventional wisdom. Now the reasoning is that because Webb has shown a lot of athleticism and potential, if the VIkings were to cut him and then try to sneak him on the practice squad, some other team would claim him, like the Chiefs did with Tyler Thigpen a couple of years back.
So if we go on the assumption that the Vikings will keep Joe Webb, that only leaves one QB slot for two incumbent back ups.
Yeah, no matter who I pick, it isn't going to end well, is it? My case for both after the jump.
The case for Tarvaris Jackson: Jackson entered camp as the starter in waiting, and the #2 guy behind Favre. Although he hasn't done anything remarkable in training camp and the pre-season, he hasn't done anything to lose the primary backup job, either. I honestly believe that Jackson has looked better this year in his decision making and accuracy. He's still had a couple of 'what the heck' moments, but overall, it seems that Jackson has progressed as a quarterback.
Jackson's natural athleticism must be taken into consideration here as well. The interior of the VIkings line looks like it might have issues, especially if C John Sullivan isn't ready for the opener. Jackson has the ability to evade the rush and make something out of nothing, and has done that several times this pre-season. If the VIkings offensive line regresses from last year, having an athletic, running quarterback might be a necessity. 'But Ted', you say, 'Joe Webb is an athletic, running quarterback', and you'd be right. But Webb is also a rookie, and a guy that does not have command of the offense. Jackson does, and he could run the entire offense, where Webb could not.
Jackson is also Brad Childress' protege, and Childress has invested a lot of time and effort to try and convert Jackson from a raw, unproven rookie (like Webb) into a polished NFL quarterback. Each player is different, and believe it or not, Jackson has improved every year, and this could be the year where he makes that final leap in the event Favre does actually get hurt to the point where he can't play. Some Jackson highlights below:
The case for Sage Rosenfels: The whole premise for Rosenfels coming to the Vikings was that the Vikings needed a veteran guy to push Jackson and compete for the starting job. Yeah, that sorta went the way of horse cavalry when Favre joined the team, but Sage was still a valuable guy to have available in case Favre got hurt. However, THAT went by the wayside when Jackson out-played Rosenfels last year (and this year) and was placed second on the depth chart.
However, Rosenfels has had a pretty good pre-season. He was terrible against San Francisco, but everyone on offense was terrible against San Francisco...except Joe Webb, ironically enough. A lot of folks tend to think the Vikings are showcasing Rosenfels for a trade, based mostly on his 300 yard passing performance against the Rams. Many teams need a veteran backup, and Rosenfels fits the bill perfectly. He is an experienced guy that might not go out and win a game for you, but he takes care of the ball and generally doesn't lose the game for you, either.
But, speaking of that veteran presence, would it be wise for the VIkings to cut or trade Rosie and have two very inexperienced backups on the roster behind Favre? If the offensive line settles down, do you want a Gus Frerotte type of guy that you're pretty sure can get you to at least 10 wins and into the playoffs, or two unproven athletic guys that have the potential to thrill you one minute and frustrate the crap out of you the next? Oh, and what would a Rosenfels post be without...ROSENCOPTER!!!:
I love me some Rosencopter, although that tends to graphically refute my whole 'takes care of the ball' argument. But man, it's fun to watch, isn't it?
There you go, TJ or Sage. Who do you think the Vikes will keep? For me, I think signs indicate keeping Jackson and trying to work a trade for Rosenfels. I don't see any team making a trade for him, though, unless it's a real critical situation, because they can just wait out cutdown day and then sign Rosenfels for no compensation as all.
So I think it's Jackson, but yeah, I'm prrrreeeetttttyyyy surethat there will be varying opinions on this.
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TJ Stays.
and I can’t make an argument for it – he’s Chilly’s ‘pet project’
that is all.
I BELIEVE...
by ArizonaVikingsFan on Sep 1, 2010 10:17 PM CDT reply actions
Preseason doesn't mean a lot.
But Sage has looked good in it, poised…. TJ hasent had that much preseason action and like I said it doesn’t mean a lot but I do get the feeling Sage is better than most think. Better than at least half the backups in the league.
Favre: It's rare to ever see a QB be so indecisive, waffle...
It's also unlikely to have one start 19 consecutive seasons.
Oh yeah
Thanks for the support on the guy that has wood for the Packers the other(yester) day.
Bigger audience my ass. You(Danwood) come over here on our site and say that…please.
Favre: It's rare to ever see a QB be so indecisive, waffle...
It's also unlikely to have one start 19 consecutive seasons.
maybe we can ask the opponents to play their second string d-tackles to make more fair.
The interior of the VIkings line looks like it might have issues, especially if C John Sullivan isn’t ready…
even if sullivan comes back by the opener, we are going to have trouble at the interior. remember, he has hardly practiced since the second day of camp. he will be rusty and out of sync at best.
in the future there will be no war...there will only be rollerball.
Doesn't matter
We still have a CRAP LT. Big and slow, everyone just goes around him for the easy sack. We have 2 good O-linemen and the rest are a crapshoot.
Simply put we should keep four QBs until after week #6
After that we will see the damage done across the league as teams scramble to find temporary starters or backups . Of which both Tarvaris and Sage are . I am sure the FO has been gauging both guys value for some time . Teams are beginning to struggle to find quality replacements . If Brees goes down . Who will be their every down QB . I asked that at Canal and again got zero reply . Peyton , Eli , Aaron they all are gambling with their seasons and are not serious about a deep run in the playoffs . Even the Mighty Peyton with his annual two game rest at the end of each year failed to get it done . Against an average Defense like the Saints have .
Isn't the trade deadline week 6?
If we kept all 4 til after week 6, we wouldn’t be able to trade anyone I don’t think.
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Sep 2, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
UGGGHH
TJack showed again this preseason that he loves him some jump pass. A fourth year guy that thinks a jump pass is going to move your offense forward needs to be fired. This project guy has shown each and every year of his NFL career that he will never have the mechanics and decision making required of a pro qb. Maybe the Bears are looking for a back up.
by heavysett on Sep 1, 2010 10:40 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I just want this argument to end already...
I’m sick of the questions, and disparage all the answers:
TJ: Don’t buy for a second he’s an NFL starter, either this year or next. He may be fine as a backup. His contract is up this year, so either he walks after getting dissed by everyone in favor of Favre, or we have to devote more money and more years to him, either to finally fail as a starter or be an expensive backup. IMHO, he bolts next year out of contempt, regardless of what happens this year.
Rosenfels: The ultimate backup. Don’t want him to start, but can handle him in a pinch. Is under contract through next year, so if he had to hold the fort next year after we win the SB, I’m OK with him after we draft a legit QB.
Webb: Haven’t we been down this road before? Is he really any different than TJ? I see the potential, and I’m OK with him being the 3 this year, but I’m also skeptical. Would need to see ALOT more next year before letting him anywhere near game time, and would prefer to see us draft a QB next year.
My vote: TRADE TJ
by San Diego Viking on Sep 1, 2010 10:51 PM CDT reply actions
i vote t-jack.....but also keep sage for now....and keep webb.
keep all four qb’s, we can trade one early if need be…
sage has trade value, some teams need a back up.
(saints, cardinals, giants, packers, panthers, pats…)
t-jack gets my nod b-cuz:
he’s more mobile, athletic and has the better arm.
he has practiced a lot with first team in camp.
he has more experience with this team than sage.
favre will most likely go down more than once.
or, t-jack and sage can go ‘rock-paper-scissors’.
in the future there will be no war...there will only be rollerball.
Or eenie-meenie-minie-moe
That’s pretty good, too.
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
I put them on my dart board then blind folded myself
spun in three circles and shot darts out of my blow gun. Now my dog won’t come near me anymore, and I’m no closer to an answer. Weird.
It's a lot easier to love the Vikings when they win...
tjack
was aweful in tonites game . better arm how by under throwing or overthrowing. better arm should mean putting the ball in the 18 inches of good window (steve young) . sage has had drives that end in tds . tjack has had drives that put our defense right back out there after 3 plays.sage has a closer playing style to favre than t jack. if sage is the back up we a re calling same sorta plays with tjack its a different script.
i have absolutely no expressed opinion on this subject
for once, i am glad i do not have to make this decision. But i still believe that we should keep all 4. Every team needs a capable backup, and rosencopter is that guy. But he wont last the entire season, he is our brad johnson or gus ferrotte. And look how important those vets have been over the past few seasons. And joe webb is too good to let go.
Actually...
I love me some Rosencopter, although that tends to graphically refute my whole ‘takes care of the ball’ argument.
There is no “takes care of the ball” argument with Rosenfels. Rosenfels career TD/Int ratio is 30/29. We kind of give him the benefit of the doubt and say “Oh, he’s a veteran, he knows how to make safe throws and protect possession” but the numbers don’t support that.
Yes, I never understood that either. Even comparing to Favre, Sage looks bad here, and Favre is supposedly Mr. Interception Machine, right? [please note sarcasm] Looking at something pure (therefor more useful) than TD/INT rate for a moment Sage’s career INT rate is 5.2%, per pro-football-reference.com, and Favre is almost half that, at 3.2% TJack’s is 3.3%
And Sage had the benefit of Andre Johnson on the field for maybe 80% of his regualr season pass attempts. That can only make you look better (I believe it makes Matt Schaub look better, anyway). Neither TJack nor Favre (outside his first couple years with Sterling Sharpe) has had the benefit of having someone like that. I mean no offense to Sydney or any other receiver by saying that, because it’s coming from me, and I’ve always said Andre Johnson is The Best Wide Receiver Playing Football Today, so no one in recent memory will compare favorably to him in my comments. But Sydney dos have some fraction of that ability, and that is something we all saw reflected in Favre’s 1.3% INT rate last year, 60% below his career average, so I hope you can see my argument that Sage’s INT % could be even higher than 5% if he ever does get the Viking starting job.
In short, I continue to be mystified why many think of Sage as a more proven, reliable QB than TJack. I’ve never seen anyone come up with anything more than anecdotal references to single plays.
I mostly agree
I want to get rid of TJ, but only because I’ve seen his failures. Looking at the stats and this preseason I would take TJ over Sage if I wasn’t so intimate with what TJ has done for the Vikes so far. Factor in a bad O-line and I would certainly prefer to deal Sage if possible. Honestly I’m not terribly happy with either of them (I expected Sage to come in and show some Brad Johnson-esqe ability to get it done and has looked worse than TJax) and don’t care who gets shipped as long as we keep Webb (my new illogical hope).
Keep TJack
Unless we get a ridiculously good offer for him. I have always backed Tarvaris. Look at his 2008 stats
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7813/gamelog;_ylt=AknHjrGz3PKp8o.QWeHLJlH.uLYF?year=2008
9TDs to 2Ints…that’s like BF numbers. Plus he can run around. We’ve seen him scramble for those first downs. If Childress opens up to the idea of T-Jax running around outside the pocket, the opposition might need to play 8+ in the box which will open up the field for the likes of Sid Rice and Percy Harvin.
We now have the weapons around Tarvaris for him to be a good QB imo. Sage doesn’t offer much upside. He looked good against SAINT LOUIS’ 2nd string defense…I’ll give him that.
Simple in my opinion...
Favre, T-Jack, Webb.
Rosenfels goes. I take the point, we probably can’t get anything for him, but I’m pretty clueless on these questions. I think you might be right, unless we actually take 4 into the season, we’ll just have to waive him. Could there be more than one team desperate enough to trade before he goes on waivers? For example, I think Sorgi is out, so the Colts might be desperate. And if Arizona cuts Leinart, then what are they going to do? They don’t have a legitimate starter at all, and I would think Rosenfels or T-Jack could easily start.
If we could get a position player, anything, who might lend us reasonable depth now, I’d be for trading T-Jack or Rosenfels. I’m not sure if that is possible or likely though.
I we could get a 5th round pick for either
I would take it.
TJ goes
TJ has all the tools but one. He just does not have the processing power to make the quick decisions a QB needs to make. I am not saying he is dumb, he is just not football smart. Keep Sage he is adaquate as a backup. The biggest knock on him is that his arm is weak. I would rather have a weak armed QB that get’s the ball to the right receiver than a cannon armed QB that doesn’t.
I really think they are going to keep both and I hope Joe Webb as well. Like was said earlier, I am glad I don’t have to make the decision.
Skol
by SouthernNorseman on Sep 2, 2010 8:19 AM CDT reply actions
Sage will draw more interest from other teams than TJack would
No one is in the TJack sweepstakes besides us. Sad but true.
But if I were in charge, I would keep Sage and Webb.
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
Have you had to make up your mind....
Did you ever have to make up your mind
Pick up on one and leave the other behind
It’s not often easy and not often kind
Did you ever have to make up your mind
Did you ever have to finally decide
Say yes to one and let the other one ride
There’s so many changes and tears you must hide
Did you ever have to finally decide…
- The Lovin’ Spoonful
Ideally… keep all 4 until the 6th week, when Sid comes off the PUP and a decision is forced. That way the Vikings have time to see what’s up, especially in case the O-line continues to be suspect and Favre goes down.
If they have to choose…. then let T-Jack move along. Webb is T-Jack 2.0, only with vastly more athletic talent, we don’t need two running QBs and we already know T-Jack’s limitations.
I voted for letting T-Jack go, but T-Jack seems to be Chilly’s boy, so it’ll probably be Sage.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
My take
Jackson can move the pocket (boots and roll outs) which helps the O-line. Sage can run a consistent short game, getting what the defense gives you. However, we payed Berrian big money to be a big part of this offense. I don’t think Sage has the arm to get the ball to him when he has beaten the safeties and is less likely to keep them honest. I believe Harvin would benefit from sage and Berrian from Jackson. I have to agree that Jackson has not been allowed the chance to be the starter. Yeah he made some mistakes 2 years ago in the first 2 games but Shincaoes dropped ball was bigger from what i remembered. Then he sat out a solid 5 or 6 weeks and came in and looked awesome.
I’m not saying i’m 100% right that Jackson is the answer, but he’s the closest thing we got to one. His decision making isn’t terrible either, its his circumstances that have been terrible. Every quarterback makes bad decisions every game so I don’t want to hear about a “certain play” or that he jumps when he throws the ball once a game. Favre underhands the ball as many times as jackson jumps.
Also…Petersons numbers are remarkably better when Jackson has been the quarterback. I can’t exactly explain this other then that maybe the linebackers can’t totally persue to the run when jackson can roll out. SKOL
I agree with you.
Sage and TJ both have different strengths and both are capable backups. I think the main difference between the two is that Jackson still has the potential to improve while Sage is largely a finished project at this point. So if both are roughly at the same level of effectiveness right now we have to stick with the younger guy who has the potential to be better. Whether TJ ever realizes his full potential or not is only a bonus at this point.
Your last point about Peterson’s numbers being better with Jackson at QB is because either a DE or LB has to hesitate to make sure Jackson doesn’t run which gives Peterson and our blockers a little more advantage than they get with a pure pocket passer. If you look at Chris Johnson’s numbers when Vince Young is at QB over Kerry Collins you’ll see the same positive impact that a mobile QB adds. Another example of this is the Falcons doing so well in the run game when Vick was at QB. Warrick Dunn had a late in his career resurgence and even guys like TJ Duckett put up big YPC averages.
by CanadianViking on Sep 2, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
One major problem with your theory Purple
I don’t think Sage has the arm to get the ball to him when he has beaten the safeties and is less likely to keep them honest. I believe Harvin would benefit from sage and Berrian from Jackson.
TJack doesn’t have the confidence to take those shots that a guy like Favre or even Sage has.
"We have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Odin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, ay, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come."
-from Bram Stoker's Dracula
sage dosnt know the offence good enough to be a starter . tj does .he knows the system better than even farve his problem he dosnt know when to pick up the first down with his feet or thow the ball away .but look at the saints game farve dosnt either.too bad they dont have moss and carter still .look what moss and carter did for caulpeper .
2 varying factors.
Did Sage perform well enough for us to trade him to a team that wants to pick up his hefty price (I wish I could get paid $12 million to stand on the sidelines w/ a clipboard). If we don’t trade him or release him, how can we deal with holding onto that big of a contract for a 2nd string QB?
I think we’ll keep TJack, and rightly so…but we need to see what happens. I’m 100% behind whatever choice they make because right now it’s a toss-up…
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
Sage's contract info
Courtesy of Rotoworld.com
2/27/2009: Signed a three-year, $9 million contract. The deal included a $1.4 million signing bonus. 2010: $2.6 million, 2011: $3 million, 2012: Free Agent
He isn’t even costing up 3 mil this year. He’s not cheap. But not so outrageous that no team would want him because of his cap hit.
by PurplePeopleEaters09 on Sep 2, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
it seems to be
a moot point..Chilly already said in his presser that TJ was #2 and they would not keep 4 QB’s…so Sage is gone.
As for folks who mention TJ’s arm strength…it matter little how far or how hard you throw the ball if you have zero accuracey. Add in bad mechanics still, and slow reaction and inabilty to understand what you see and it is not a good thing. Then you have to think well what about next season…who do we have under contract…oh yea Joe!
Trade TJ for a parking lot attendant to be named later
TJ has regressed these last two years instead of gotten better. I saw nothing and I mean nothing during the pre-season to make this even close. Granted Sage did not exactly set the world on fire, but he didn’t suck. Webb out played both of them and by the end of the season might be a legitamate #2 QB.
by SouthernNorseman on Sep 3, 2010 8:49 AM CDT reply actions
Cut TJ without even a goodbye
To me he has ended up wasting a lot of time here in Vikings land. Chilly supposedly sees “evolution” in this guy. That may be but the improvement he has shown in his time here has been small. At this level there is not much time to improve. Either you have it or you don’t. That “highlight” video of his that was posted is a compilation of wide open first down runs and average passing completions. Last night he went 2/8 for 2 yards. Yes I know it was the last preseason game, but it is still an NFL game and for a quarterback who has been a starter that is damn terrible. I don’t think he even led us to one first down. There isnt much of a place for a QB like that in this league. Joe Webb is a similar type player, although bigger, faster, more athletic. Its like starting with TJ all over again though. We’ll see how it plays out if he makes the team.
Its just unsettling that essentially we are hoping Favre can just take us to the promised land.
by EventualChamps! on Sep 3, 2010 11:04 AM CDT reply actions
Interesting
TJ had a narrow lead all through yesterday, and then it switched dramatically in Sage’s favor after last night’s game.
I wonder what happened to cause such a shift towards Sage, he wondered sarcastically…
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
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