Taking One Last Look At The Arizona Game
by Christopher Gates on Oct 11, 2011 10:22 PM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings 2011 Season
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PrintBy far and away, my favorite Vikings recaps. . .other than the incomparable Stock Market Report, natch. . .are the ones put together by Tom Pelissero at 1500 ESPN. They're so incredibly detailed and thorough that it reminds me of exactly why I want to do the sportswriting thing for a living one of these days.
In taking a last look back at Sunday's contest between the Arizona Cardinals and the Minnesota Vikings, I'm going to crib a few things from Pelissero's most recent work here. We'll start with his look at the QB situation, where he gives us the obvious.
Donovan McNabb still isn't making any plays down the field, and now, coaches apparently don't even trust him to try.
The more I thought about it and tried to recall. . .did the Vikings even attempt more than one pass that went more than 20 yards in the air? I mean, McNabb had the two completions to Aromashodu, one of which went for 21 yards, but the 60-yarder only traveled about 15 yards in the air, and Rashad Johnson's faceplant allowed him to turn it into a huge game. McNabb completed 10-of-21 on the afternoon for 169 yards. . .take away those two plays, and he was 8-of-19 for 88 yards, which is 11 yards per completion and an absolutely awful 4.6 yards/attempt.
I know that the offense went into this one without alleged deep threat Bernard Berrian, but damn. . .there aren't many games where you're going to be able to get away without even attempting a pass deeper than twenty yards. Don't get me wrong, I know that the odds of McNabb completing a pass deeper than twenty yards are somewhere between slim and none. . .and I think I just saw Slim ask for his check. . .but you have to at least take a shot at it at some point, don't you?
More after the jump.
Let's move on to a brief look at the receivers, where we learn about the impact that Percy Harvin had despite only having two touches for 23 yards in Sunday's game.
Even when Percy Harvin (40 snaps) barely touches the ball, he can make a difference. Look no further than how he turned around FS Kerry Rhodes on Peterson's first TD and kept his hands on SS Adrian Wilson all the way to the end zone on Peterson's second. Harvin's hustle alone was worth a game ball, even if one block aggravated his longstanding rib problem.
According to Pelissero's numbers, the Cardinals put a safety in the box on nearly 80% of the Vikings' snaps and tended to play off on the edges, so that could explain why Harvin didn't get a lot of catches or targets on Sunday. But it goes to show how much more versatile Harvin is than even we realize. Yes, he catches the ball. . .yes, he runs with the ball. . .yes, he returns kickoffs. He's also turned himself into a pretty bad-ass blocker for a guy his size.
Looking at what Pelissero had to say about the linebackers, apparently there was a sequence in the second quarter where the Vikings' defense only had ten men on the field twice in the span of four plays, the second of which resulted in a 13-yard completion to Andre Roberts on third-and-11. We're five weeks into the season. . .communication has got to be better than that.
Also in the linebacker portion, he notes that E.J. Henderson only saw action on 22 snaps in this one. Don't get me wrong. . .we all love E.J. and admire the hell out of him for the way he came back from his nasty injury and the way he plays the game. Unfortunately, he's a free agent at the end of the year, and I can't help but think that this is his last season in Minnesota. Coverage has never been his strong suit, and if he's going to have perpetual swelling in his knee because of the metal rod that was put in his leg after his injury, it's not going to get any better. It makes me sad to say that, and I hope that I'm wrong.
There were plenty of good things to read about the secondary, too, particularly the part about Chris Cook not allowing a completion of more than seven yards all afternoon. However, I'll conclude with Pelissero stating the obvious once again.
SS Tyrell Johnson (28) got two series and inexplicably abandoned the middle third as Housler streaked for a would-be 22-yard touchdown Kolb overthrew. What's the point?
I don't know, Tom. . .I just don't know. Seriously, put Tyrell Johnson and Bernard Berrian in the same taxi to Minneapolis-St. Paul International, give Mistral Raymond some run at safety, play Aromashodu as your deep threat, and move Emmanuel Arceneaux up from the practice squad or something.
And, with that, we can move our primary focus on to our opponent next week, the Chicago Bears.
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I think i remember
McNabb heaving a bomb to Michael Jenkins early on in the game. I remember this because I then fully realized that a player known as Molasses Mike was our “deep threat”.
You'd be right.
I think we started at our own 22 on that play. After the pass interference call, we ended up on the Arizona 37. 41 yard play by my count.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Chicago........HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
SKOL!!!
by DM_Purp on Oct 12, 2011 8:22 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Jaymar Johnson..
Isn’t even on our team. He is on the Cardinal’s practice squad.
14 halll of famers. Wait Cris Carter isn't in the Hall of Fame yet!? Wtf is wrong with these people!?
Hats off to Percy
He is a stud. Glad we have him on our team. It’s been said enough: and it’s clear: Berrian and Johnson do not make this team any better. Pelissero has it dead on, “What’s the point?”
Don’t play someone just to play them or because you feel like they’ve done well enough to deserve a “shot” each week to see if they’ve improved. Obviously they are two huge holes on our team and when we’ve got some question marks sitting behind these two guys(Raymond and Arceneaux), why not give those two younger guys a shot. It’s simple If you’re getting BEAT on each play or not getting OPEN and making any plays, then there’s no way your replacement can be any WORSE.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
SKOL!!!
Ugh ugh ugh
This makes me question Frazier even more. Okay, so you don’t want to throw the ball downfield.. can we get a QB then that can at least have the accuracy to make the short throws without lobbing the ball at an open reciever’s feet? Please? It’s like we have Tavaris Jackson out there. Didn’t we get rid of that guy? Looks almost like we just got the older, more stubborn, version of him.
Unfortunately
Jackson has looked slightly better this year.
14 halll of famers. Wait Cris Carter isn't in the Hall of Fame yet!? Wtf is wrong with these people!?
Good TJack comparison
I would argue TJack had better accuracy with what I’ve seen. TJ had indecision issues. McNabb has done one thing pretty well this year: take care of the football. He hasn’t had hardly any turnovers(I think 4 maybe) especially considering the line issues. He hasn’t been forcing the ball, but at the same time, all those 3 and outs sure do add up and we might as well be turning the ball over.
I don’t put too much blame at Frazier’s feet just yet. To be fair, McNabb is supposed to help be stable for an offense that’s completely revolved around AP. As we saw this last week, Peterson/Def can win us games, but in the league today, you have to have a QB that can make at least a few plays(3rd and 7-10) to be successful week in and week out. We hoped McNabb could have some resurgence like Favre in ‘09, but he’s far from that and Frazier is in a tough spot. Coming off a huge win, he can’t change QBs(even though he should). My opinion, Ponder’s probably not where they want him to be yet so they are going to wait for 1 of two things: 1) Mcnabb is so atrocious and we’re getting beat badly essentially forcing a change(i don’t like waiting for this because even though we are WAY back, this team has enough talent to wait until we’re mathematically out of playoffs to make a switch) or 2) Ponder is fully ready to take over. From what I’ve seen though, I think ANY qb could be better than McNabb right now. The plays he is making aren’t anything special. He’s seriously lost “it”.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
SKOL!!!
What I’m most afraid of is that Ponder isn’t ready despite the coaches previously raving about his intelligence and pro style offense at FSU. But then that depends on what being “ready” is for Frazier and company…
I'm cutlassbob, and I approved this message.
Yeah, definitions, expectations.
Can anyone honestly say that McNabb looks “ready”?
I can’t. If the kid can call a huddle, understand the plays that are being run and hand off to Peterson, then he’ll be fine. (still not saying we’re goign undefeated or anything) but if Ponder’s clueless of our offense right now, then there’s something wrong with our coaching staff. We’ve had a long time for Ponder to learn “a system that is very similar to what he ran in college”. He is a smart kid. He might not have ALL of the reads down, but that’s going to change with game experience too.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
SKOL!!!
Yeah, it was understood he wouldn't be ready right off the bat
given the limited off-season he’s had. But we’re 5 weeks in now. He’s had a whole preseason and training camp. I don’t think he isn’t ready to at least start. Give him the same max-protection sets if you want, leave him that dump-off option while he adjusts to the speed of the game, but for the sake of the team, please stick him out there. I can’t take much more of shitty McNabb throws.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Oct 12, 2011 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Berrian and T. Johnson can still contribute!
The end of your football career isn’t the end of your life. Bernard Berrian and Tyrell Johnson are done being productive football players, but that doesn’t mean they can’t contribute a lifetime of productivity in other areas. It is time for both men to move on with their lives.
Same with Donovan McNabb. When a quarterback can no longer hop nimbly to one side and flick a pass on target, it’s time to hang up the cleats and do something else for a living. McNabb would make a fine quarterback coach. He can show a rookie everything about how to prepare for games. Now he needs to show us all how a great veteran prepares to exit the game.
by jimbo55403 on Oct 12, 2011 10:57 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I still think McNabb is getting too much flack
The line has been horrid the first 4 weeks and was slightly better this past week. McNabb does make some really bad throws. There is no denying that. But he makes some good ones too. I just cannot blame him solely for the first 4 losses. It is not accurate or fair.
I am still rooting for the Vikings to win and make the playoffs. Once that goal is out of reach there will be plenty of games for Ponder to play. There is no hurry and he will not do better facing the pressure that McNabb has been facing. The coaching staff is doing the right thing IMHO.
As for the Tyrell play, Peliserro should look again because he went over to double Fitzgerald. If he did not do that then people would be blaming him for not helping. It was EJ who did not drop deep or quick enough into his area of responsibility in the Tampa 2 if I am not mistaken.
Tyrell saw just a few snaps when Sanford came out for some reason. He has to come in when Sanford goes out because Eric Frampton cannot be relied upon to play in the base defense and Raymond is not ready yet.
Why they did not try and sign Joe Lefeged as an UDFA safety is baffling. I know they did sign Chris Adingupu a safety from Prairie View but come on. These are the kind of decisions that always confuse me. Its as if a scout wants to prove they uncovered a gem when a better ranked player by almost everybody did not get drafted. Of course they may have tried to sign him and he chose to go elsewhere but I find it hard to believe. The Vikings safeties are not that great so an UDFA may feel he has a pretty good shot at making the roster.
But I digress into draft talk.
I do know that McNabb MUST perform a LOT BETTER these next two games to save his job. If the Vikings lose both and he plays the same (i.e. lots of passes to the worms) then even I will have to get on board with the “bench McNabb” crowd.
I am an old fool but not that much of a fool. :)
I hear you Mark
I’ve been pretty vocal about benching(not dismissing, face it, we need 3 QBs) McNabb. To be honest, this past weekend was the straw that broke the camel’s back. We saw the same results from him with pretty good protection up front from the line. I’m sorry, but after the 12 years or whatever it has been that he’s been a QB in this league, we’re talking about some pretty inexplicably bad passes he’s thrown. If there’s pressure in his face, fine, I get it. Can he not read the defense fast enough to find the open receiver with a blitz? I’m sorry, Mark. I agree with you on a LOT of things, but this isn’t one of them.
I think he gets one more week. If he can’t put up points against the 27th ranked pass def and the 28th against the run defense, then he’s got to sit down. Sure, our WRs aren’t world-beaters by any mean, but Percy should be able to get the ball. Rudy, Shank can get open. Jenkins and Aroma have gotten open. SOMEone has to be open. If he’s not missing them with his eyes, he’s missing them with his arm.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
SKOL!!!
This is too true
The line isn’t going to block much better than it did against the Cardinals, and what we saw from McNabb rivaled the first game against San Diego. That 60-yarder to Aromashodu was a busted play, and if they ran that again, and the CB doesn’t inexplicably fall on his face, it doesn’t go for that big of a gain. Maybe 5 to 10 yards. Granted, he found the open man that time, but it was one of the few where the ball was actually catchable.
I don’t think anyone is blaming only McNabb for the 1-5 start, but it isn’t too difficult to see that he’s a pretty big contributor to the record. You just can’t rely on him to be your QB and make the regular throws regularly. I don’t even understand how he’s defendable at this point.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Oct 12, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Aromashodu's catch
Was probably only catchable because of that dead duck of a pass that Mcnabb threw. Had that been a tight spiral that probably would have been way over DA’s head.
The Line looked pretty good last week Mark
I’ll agree that McNabb has made some plays, but for every play he’s made, there’s been 2 plays he’s missed. Rewatch the Arizona game and his completions..I don’t think he threw a pass to the numbers the entire game..the Aromashadou pass is a perfect example(and that was a busted coverage) Another play that sticks out in my mind is on a 3rd and long near the red zone. Mcnabb dropped back, had protection, and tossed a quick ball to Shiancoe at the sideline for a 1 yard gain. The only catch possible for Shank was a go-out-of-bounds snag. When you need 10+ yds for the first, why is that your first and only read? He was covered pretty well too, but you know who wasn’t covered? Percy Harvin, standing in the endzone COMPLETELY uncovered the entire time. It was a busted coverage from the start and Harvin was doing jumping jacks in the endzone. Which leads me to believe that Shank(who was covered) was the first read and Mcnabb decided that was the best bet. It boggles my mind that he’s been in the league 12+ years and he can’t make a simple progression. How does he decide THAT is his best option, when it won’t convert the 3rd down, it was defended, and you have a sure TD waiting in broken coverage. Those are the plays that kill us. If it had been a close game, that might have cost us, and those were some of his completions..don’t get me started on all the turfballs..I saw at least 3 balls thrown at the line of scrimmage where the receiver was wide open and Mcnabb threw it only halfway to them into the ground. It’s like he was throwing them grounders in baseball and they were getting the “big hops” instead of short hops. Like I said, even his completions were bad plays for the most part. His best plays were probably when he went right, evaded pressure, came back left and hit aromashadou for a gain of 20 and the rushing TD. Webb and possibly Ponder could make these 2 plays as well. So tell me what the upside is of having them on the bench and Mcnabb playing?
by PURPpplEATER on Oct 13, 2011 9:02 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The line was OK last week but it does not excuse the first three weeks when they were horrible.
The play where Harvin was open was a miss but it happens to all QBs. It is easy to say he should have looked over to Harvin. We do not know the call that was made or what the defense showed pre-snap (or at least what McNabb thought he saw). I cannot really comment on that because it happens often in NFL games to all QBs.
To not give him credit for throwing the pass to Aomashodu is not right. he got the ball to him and it does not matter if it wobbled. DA caught it and then got some more yards after the catch. I think if the safety did not fall down DA would have still caught it but probably not gotten the YAC. Not every pass is going to be a tight spiral. As long as it gets there.
I know he does not get all of them there. And when that happens it is ugly. But he is still throwing some nice passes and not taking too many snaps and has been doing well under enormous pressure. I have already posted the stats in other threads that show this to be true (unless those stats are wrong). But any fan can tell you that he was under pressure the first 3 games (at least) and they don’t need no stat site to tell them that.
I just think that fans are looking at a few bad passes and a scapegoat. Ponder or Webb would have been hard pressed to perform better under the same conditions. There is no way anyone can say for sure if they would have done better. No way.
So to me, it is about supporting the team. I am one to talk too since I hated the Ponder pick. I wanted Nate Solder. But now I am a fan of Ponder and want him to succeed. I have moved on.
We need to support McNabb for as long as he is in there. Maybe all he needs is some love?
It does not matter though because Frazier is not going to be swayed by fans who do not know what he knows about Ponder and Webb. They definitely cannot read NFL defenses like McNabb can.
Frazier deserves credit for picking this QB in the draft. The most “NFL ready” QB too apparently. So let him groom Ponder as he sees fit.
McNabb will either step up to the challenge in the next two to three weeks or he will be on the pine. I am OK with that scenario. Ponder would still have 8 games after the bye to show what he can do.
Although I will say they already know he is capable or they would not have drafted him. It all comes down to how they develop him. If they develop him correctly he can become a very good NFL QB. If they rush him out there behind a porous, at best, offensive line and he is forced to run around and try to make things happen then it could hurt his development.
I believe that he is a capable NFL QB. They just need to develop him right.
And once you put him in there then you do NOT yank him in and out because he throws some picks or fumbles, etc. Once you put him in he is in!
I have not given up on this year and I still believe (unfortunately) that McNabb gives the Vikings the best chance to win!
They need the stinking offensive line to do better as evidenced by them working out two more players yesterday!
I'm with you DM.
McNabb accomplishes nothing. So if we win a few games with him behind the wheel then we just keep playing him? PLAYOFFS, you realize that we need to win 9 of of 11 games to make the playoffs. I’m not sure the Packers will win 9 of their next 11 games. O.k. our team is in a tough spot. We won’t be bad enough to get LUCK & we wont be good enough to make the playoffs. I know the Vikes aren’t as bad as their record but we are not going to the playoffs & we need to play the young guys as much as possible. A couple of wins one way or another is not going to make a difference. (Except maybe in the draft order) Playing is the best way to learn & the best way for us way to evaluate what we have. Yeah I want Ponder out there asap.
I would like him out there now
But, If the coaching staff doesn’t believe that he’s ready(i use this word loosely), then I agree he should still be sitting. But like said, if he seems to be competant enough to be able to run the offense(to the point where he knows what he’s doing, but execution may still be a question) then he should be out there. You never know, a little accuracy in a few of these games and we could have an extra win or two. It’s not like we got blown out in our losses.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
SKOL!!!
Havent been beaten by more than 7 points all year
And I agree..if execution is the problem, then there’s no reason for Ponder or Webb to be sitting out because McTurd hasn’t executed anything except when he’s scrambling(which I believe Joe Webb could do just as well, if not better) let’s continue the youth movement coach Frazier
by PURPpplEATER on Oct 13, 2011 8:25 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
9-7 might do it this year #itshappening
I mean look at all the supposedly “good” NFC teams this year..Philly, New Nork, Dallas. Teams that were supposed to be power houses but are getting beat by the “bad” teams. If these teams really are good and the others bad then we may still be in it, if we get hot and everything starts to flipflop then maybe we CAN make a Wildcard. Heck if we beat Chicago on sunday then we have the same record. I know it’s probably a pipedream(especially with McBad throwin turf balls) but I AM a Vikings fan..what do you expect? Any chance you could help me out Mark as far as wildcard scenarios go?
by PURPpplEATER on Oct 13, 2011 8:22 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I mean really, does anyone expect Rex Grossman and the Skins to continue playing this good?
We could get swept by the Packers, and still beat everyone else in our division. I can’t see us getting swept by the Pack and the Bears. And Detroit barely beat us the 1st game.. I feel Cutler is going to be having Deja Vu all over again. Detroits D-Line and then Our D-line the next week..sucks to be that guy.
by PURPpplEATER on Oct 13, 2011 9:12 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
OK, fine
Ponder may not be “ready” for the NFL – I get that, and there are certainly different, valid philosophies on sitting/starting rookies (I can’t imagine anyone KNOWS that starting Manning right away contributed to his success more than they can know that sitting Rodgers was key to his).
Fine, wait. We have a QB with some experience that is more accurate than McNabb anyway – Joe Webb. Do I think Joe Webb is an MVP candidate in the offing? No, but I do think that if we’re worried about benching McNabb and still want to wait Ponder, we can start Webb. And not in a BS gimmick offense, either.
See if he can play in a WCO with two TE sets. If he can, wonderful. If he can’t, we’ll have 3 more games on our belt with Ponder getting valuable clipboard time. Webb doesn’t run first, and he makes multiple reads quickly. He can shovel, throw on the run, and make plays with his legs (all important with this O Line). I want to see if he has pocket presence, a quick motion (I’m pretty sure he does) and a good medium game. What kind of risks will he make when throwing? Do they tend to pay off? Does he throw on 3rd and 18 to get the 1st down or just the completion? Importantly, does he know how to sell the play action and deal with the slower developing play?
If we really want to bench McNabb, let’s consider our other options, too. Webb can hand off to AP just as well as the next guy, and that seems to be our offense at the moment anyway.
It would be nice to see Webb have a revenge game against Chicago
Now that he’s had more experience and should know the playbook better. THAT actually excites me..watching McTurf throw does not. Frazier seems to take his time but he does make the right decisions or the moves we think he should (BB, McKinney) I really hope he keeps going with his gut and benches McBad and Tyrell..
by PURPpplEATER on Oct 13, 2011 8:34 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
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