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The Part Of The Story Where We Blame The Crappy Offensive Line On Poor Drafting

The Vikes o-line has a long way to go to get better.

The NFL is structurally built so that teams that are on the bottom can quickly rise to the top in short order, and our own Vikings were one of the poster children for that from 2006-2009.  With a combination of good drafts, timely free agent signings, and a blockbuster trade, Minesota went from a lethargic 6-10 to the cusp of the Super Bowl.

And once you ascend, it's difficult to stay on top, as you draft later, and if you make trades, you don't draft at all.  Every move you make as a front office will have a ripple effect that is magnified if it doesn't pay off.

As Vikes fans, we have witnessed that as well.  And we are witnessing it at areas that the Vikings have whiffed at in the draft.

Namely, offensive line.  Let's see how the Vikings ended up with one of the worst lines in the NFL.

Let's go back 10 years, to the 2002 draft, and see who the Vikings have drafted, and we'll see a disturbing trend.

2002:  Bryant McKinnie, T, 1st Round; Ed Ta'amu, G, 4th Round

2003:  No offensive linemen chosen

2004:  Nat Dorsey, T, 4th Round

2005:  Marcus Johnson, G, 2nd Round

2006:  Ryan Cook, C, 2nd Round

2007:  No offensive linemen taken

2008:  John Sullivan, C, 6th Round

2009:  Phil Loadholt, T, 2nd Round

2010:  Chris DeGeare, T, 5th Round

2011:  DeMarcus Love, T, 6th Round; Brandon Fusco, C, 6th Round

Now, let's look at the starting line the Vikings had in 2006/07/08/09/10/11, when the current front office took over the draft, and see how many draft picks the Vikings have had as starting linemen in that time frame.

After the jump, of course.

Star-divide

LT--McKinnie/McKinnie/McKinnie/McKinnie/McKinnie/Charlie Johnson

LG--Hutch/Hutch/Hutch/Hutch/Hutch/Hutch

C--Matt Birk/Birk/Birk/Sully/Sully/Sully

RG--Artis Hicks/Anthony Herrera/Herrera/Herrera/Herrera/Herrera

RT--Marcus Johnson/Ryan Cook/Cook/Loadholt/Loadholt/Loadholt

The guys in bold were starters that were drafted by the Vikings.  If you just look at the raw numbers, 17 of a possible 30 line positions (5 linemen over 6 years) have been filled by draft picks, 6 spots have been filled by a Hall of Fame free agent acquisition (Hutch), and only the right guard position has been filled by essentially an undrafted free agent (Herrera).

And consequently, the failure at selecting good offensive linemen has been stunning once you do a little digging.  McKinnie was league average or better, but as a first round pick he should be better than league average.  If things worked out, the line should be stocked with good to serviceable veterans based on these draft results, especially when you look at second round picks Marcus Johnson and Ryan Cook.  Now, I'm not saying every pick should work out, but they should when they are first and second round picks, like Johnson and Cook, and at least to this point in his career, Phil Loadholt.

But of those 17 positions, only 8 of them have been what I would consider productive years, the three by Birk and the five by McKinnie.  And neither of those guys were drafted by the current front office. 

Speaking of Birk, letting him go was a huge mistake.  Thanks for that, Chilly.  There is a demarcation line in quality play, and it is between the 2008 and 2009 season, the year Birk left for Baltimore.  But Minnesota should have been prepared for that, and in a way, they were, or at least I thought they were preparing for that.  But Cook, a center in college, was converted to a tackle, then a backup guard, so the Vikes had to rely on a sixth rounder to start.  Although Birk himself was a 6th rounder, thinking that Sullivan could adequately replace a Hall of Famer was, in retrospect, nuts. 

But that's still not the main point, which is that the Vikings have drafted only 4 linemen in the top three rounds in the last ten years, McKinnie, Marcus Johnson, Cook, and Loadholt.  That would be fine, if those linemen had panned out, but only McKinnie did. 

Let's contrast that with the Packers, this week's opponent and the defending Super Bowl champion.  In the same time frame, they've drafted 15 offensive linemen, and almost half of them (7) were drafted in the fourth round or earlier.  As a consequence, all five of the Packers offensive linemen are former draft picks, and all of them but C Scott Wells were drafted in the 4th round or earlier.

Don't want to use the Packers for comparison?  Fine, let's use the 1998 Vikings, probably the best Vikes team ever.  They had a dominating offensive line that was the foundation for the best offense in NFL history.  Three of the starters (Todd Steussie, Randall McDaniel, Korey Stringer--RIP, big man) were former first round picks by the Vikings that developed into All-Pro players.  C Jeff Christy was a 4th round pick by the Cardinals who didn't make the team, and who the Vikes picked up and developed into an All Pro.  RG David Dixon was your typical journeyman, a former 9th rounder taken by New England, and the weakest lineman in the group, but by that point in his career was a league average player.  Three first rounders and a fourth rounder, awesome line. 

A second, a sixth, an undrafted free agent, a stopgap, and Hutch--dumpster fire. 

Quite a contrast between then and now, huh?

The Vikings have gone on the cheap for for offensive linemen in the draft for the better part of a decade, and when they did select a traditional first day guy, they missed, and quite badly.  As a consequence, that neglect is now on full display.

The only way the Vikings are goingto get a quality line is to draft one, for the most part.  Steve Hutchinson was a gift that dropped into Minnesota's lap due to Seattle front office mismanagement that lead to the infamous Poison Pill War with the Seahawks--teams aren't going to let good linemen get away, so addressing the line through free agency isn't the answer, unless it's a mid-tier guy that can be a stopgap for a year or two.

I guess that what I'm trying to say that there aren't going to be any quick fixes, and the Vikings are going to have to do this the old fashioned way:  Good scouting, solid drafting, and a good offensive line coach that can develop the guys he gets.

Hopefully, DeMarcus Love and Brandon Fusco can be part of the answer, and not a continuing string of problems that we've seen in recent years, but as 6th rounders, I'm not holding out hope.

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thanks, after yesterday's buttrape, i somehow feel bouyed by this assessment.

…now let me go find a dull, rusty razor blade to slit my wrists with….aaaahhhhhhh.

(the preceding was brought to you by the makers of butt hurt sarcasm).

warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!

by danny lloyd on Oct 17, 2011 5:54 PM CDT reply actions  

I was thinking about this just the other day

it’s awesome to see it in numbers. It’s actually shocking how few linemen we’ve drafted int he last decade…

I actually really liked Fusco and Love as prospects this year. They may have had 6th round grades, but DeMarcus Love was projected to go in the high end of round 2 for many a month. Fusco was also projected to go anywhere from the 3rd to 5th round. The fact that we got both in the 6th round is phenomenal.

I do think that this is the year that we spend a high pick (maybe even two if David DeCastro or Peter Konz is available in round 2) on linemen, such as Matt Kalil (if we really don’t do well), Jonathan Martin (who I think is our most likely candidate), or Riley Reiff if we win a few more games.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

SKOL VIKINGS!

by Landonio on Oct 17, 2011 6:18 PM CDT reply actions  

# 1 need
  1. 1 need is a good GM witness the curent Lions (Gosh I thought I’d never say that)
    Not just any GM or a bad one witness the Lions before this GM

WE need better coaches. Last year you saw GB bring in people to help out and made them better. Chicago just up and replaced their defense backfield.

I thought Singletary would bring some toughness and going after the ball attitude to the VIKES, guess not.

It seems like players get to our team and do not get better. If they were good when they got here via trade Jared then it works.

We have some key elements Adrian for a few years, maybe Ponder is it, a good TE, Jared, but we need a GOOD GM ro come in and take it over and work with Frazier or someone else

by ZygiZag on Oct 17, 2011 6:22 PM CDT reply actions  

+++++++++

You are spot on. GM is a dire need for the Vikings.

by Arsist on Oct 17, 2011 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm fine with Rick Spielman

he has avoided o-line lately, but he’s gotten us a ton of steals..Percy, AP, etc.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

SKOL VIKINGS!

by Landonio on Oct 17, 2011 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

i wouldn't necessarily call 1st rd picks "steals"...

…however, i think we have steals in DeMarcus Love (who we might as well try at LT — can’t be any worse than Charlie Johnson…) and Brandon Burton (who we might as well start in Ced’s spot, b/c he is becoming a liability).

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 17, 2011 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I watched Love at left tackle in the pre-season - maybe the Houston game

And thought he showed good footwork and balance – keeping the defender in front of him. I know it was against second or third stringers but hey, can it be worse than Charlie Johnson last night getting bowled over and rolling across the ground?

I agree with you on both counts. Last night was the first game I was able to see and it was surprising how the Bears were targeting Cedric. He is a shadow of his former self before the second knee injury.

by Caretaker QB on Oct 17, 2011 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

It surely can't be worse than the guy that was playing for Loadholt

wow that guy was absolutely terrible, at least Johnson had the excuse that he was playing against Peppers.

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, Brown was garbage

looking at our roster, we don’t have any Tackles outside of those we’ve been discussing. if Loadholt is out via injury, and Charlie keeps sucking, i think Love could get plugged in somewhere as early as the Packer game.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 18, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

i was keeping an eye on Love in the preseason, too

mostly b/c i wanted to see if he could start at RG (Herrera was still out at that time); but surprisingly, and against all conventional wisdom of the draft experts saying Love was a Guard at the next level, we were playing him at Tackle — and as you said, he looked pretty dang good (he may have seen some action against 1st stringers, at some point…??).

it would be nice to see if he is a viable answer at the position. i know what people will say — too much of a long shot and he was a late rd pick, we need a 1st rd LT, blah blah blah. they’re probably right, but we’d never know unless we tried it out. i remember early talk of Love going as high as the 2nd rd (likewise with Burton).

for whatever reason, they dropped, and even if they’re still raw we could have two viable starters at their respective positions. i fear fans will disagree simply b/c they were 5th and 6th rd picks, though.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 18, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Steals?

Really? More like fall in your lap luck.

by Arsist on Oct 17, 2011 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure it's not luck

if you choose to draft the guy…I bet you anything all of the 6 teams would have taken AP had they the chance in a draft re-do. Percy was a steal too. Ray Edwards in the 4th round….lots of good value picks made. Doesn’t mean it was luck.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

SKOL VIKINGS!

by Landonio on Oct 17, 2011 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hindsight is always 20/20

But looking back, it’s still a bit fuzzy. The luck comes in where no one else decided to draft Percy because of the migraines. Sure, they would like to have him now, after he’s proven himself, but no one wanted to take the chance then.

by Chris3 on Oct 18, 2011 7:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

How can he be considered a steal when he isn't even all that good?

He hasn’t really proven much of anything.

Take off your purple glasses and look at it in the bigger picture for a sec. Compare him to other WRs around the league and he’s actually below average.

I’m sorry, but I’m getting sick of him being so overrated.

by Jayrome007 on Oct 18, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah I hate when offensive rookies of the year with no quarterbacks

are overrated. You wouldn’t have good stats with Brett Favre post-prime and McFlab as your QB’s, either.

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

SKOL VIKINGS!

by Landonio on Oct 18, 2011 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Do you even watch games?

Not only is he great in the slot, as a kick returner and on end arounds, but he is a great blocker as well. Yeah he must suck cause McNabb can’t hit him in stride or even get the ball in his vacinity!

14 halll of famers. Wait Cris Carter isn't in the Hall of Fame yet!? Wtf is wrong with these people!?

by Thor82 on Oct 18, 2011 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

except that he can get open, catch, run, block, etc.

He might be small, but he is a lot stronger than his size suggests.

by Chris3 on Oct 18, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's not a pure WR

But that doesn’t make him not a potent weapon and a good value where he was picked.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree that the Vikes have to rebuild

Through the draft. Also agree it’s going to be a long toad. The question is, should we trade some high value players now for more draft picks in the future? Our tradable players (and we won’t trade Peterson) might be, Hutch, K Williams, J. Allen (what would Pittsburgh or Buffalo give for Allen? Likely a 1st round pick), Chris Cook, not much else. So do we trade some of our better older players?

by Vikefandc on Oct 17, 2011 7:26 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

I will keep saying it

The NFL doesn’t really work that way. Teams generally don’t offer big hauls of draft picks for veteran rent a players. This isn’t baseball, where prospects are relatively cheap and one player can make the difference.

That said, if there is enough on the table, we should consider trading those guys. I just wouldn’t bet on there being enough on the table.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

thing is, if i’m not mistaken, the trade deadline is today, and i don’t see any trades happening…

by RedHat16 on Oct 18, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Carson Palmer?

Brandon Lloyd too….but the Palmer deal is a pretty big one that’s gone down today.

by PackApologist on Oct 18, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

2012 1st rounder + 2013 1st or 2nd rounder...?!

Cincy was smart to finally deal him. damn. they’re gonna be a force for years to come with that many early picks.

…why can’t we get a deal like that for a player who isn’t even playing…?!

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 18, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

no crap!

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

and al davis wasn't even in control!

They must have been using the ouija board to channel him.

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

what's Palmer's 40-time...??

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 21, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biggest disappointment

Marcus Johnson was pretty highly rated and it really pissed me off to see another 2nd round pick flame out. Every time you miss on a high pick it has a ripple effect because you not only have to replace that player/position but now you can’t address another need. Spielman has to get more out of the 2nd round.

by Siegfried59 on Oct 17, 2011 7:36 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Johnson was drafted in 05 not by Spielman

But I agree, I thought he would have panned out, he had a late 1st rd grade. His struggles lead to Cook being moved to RT and now we were two 2nd rd raft picks wasted away in back to back years.

by nmvikesfan on Oct 17, 2011 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem is they traded up to get him

That’s extra value and a very conscious choice on the part of the front office to get a guy who was basically going to sit behind AD. Not a terrible idea per se, but RB’s are cheap and a spelling back could probably be found just as easily in a later round or even the UDFA market.

by PackApologist on Oct 17, 2011 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought they traded down

I thought they gave their first round pick to the Lions for 2 second round pics, one being TG

by Chris3 on Oct 18, 2011 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

traded down for Cook

traded up right in front of Pittsburgh to get Gerhart. i only remember that b/c my buddy is a huge Steelers fan and he wanted them to draft Toby… he was so pissed.

honestly… i think Toby might eventually become trade bait. he’s shown flashes but w/ AP in his prime, i’m not sure Toby will want to stick around once his contract runs out. could pawn him off in a package deal for a 1st or 2nd rd pick; he has great potential, i just don’t think we can utilize him effectively and he could be worth the bargaining price. then again he’s a good backup should AP ever get injured. ahhh i’m torn…

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 18, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

i agree he could be trade bait

but I don’t think there is any chance at a 1st round pick. Probably not even second.

I don’t think anyone will see him as more than a backup, but maybe he could work in a two back system that has a slasher/speed guy already.

He’s just a bad fit hear because he’s the same type of runner as AP, so he doesn’t offer a change of pace, but isn’t as good.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's what i meant by 'package deal'

Toby + ________ for 1st/2nd rd pick.

and yeah, i was thinking hypothetically to a team like KC to compliment Jamaal Charles.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 18, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

no worries =)

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Oct 21, 2011 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Too generous

toby’s not looking like a good pick. Adds nothing.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

I still believe

that TG’s future is at fullback. If we are dedicated to running the ball and get 15-20 snaps a game out of him at fullback, then he will be productive. If we keep ignoring that he isnt as good as Booker, then he will be a bust, too.

by SpencerN on Oct 18, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Booker might actually be a change of pace

But honestly, I don’t know if TG has the toughness for a FB.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

For the record the FO didn't let Birk walk

He wanted to leave, the FO offered more money than the Ravens did but he did not want to play in a zone blocking scheme. I have been wanting our Vikings to draft a LT for the last three years to replace McKinnie. Now we are in a position where we have no choice but to draft a LT with our first pick. If we receive the two compensatory picks that we should, we will have 10 draft picks, of which we should draft 2 or 3 OL.

by nmvikesfan on Oct 17, 2011 7:57 PM CDT reply actions  

That's why I did the sarcastic

‘thanks Chilly’. He was such a tool that Birk wanted to leave his hometown team and play for someone else.

Some people just need a high five. In the face. With a chair.

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire

by Ted Glover on Oct 17, 2011 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Someone did a great analysis

one of the national writers -

It showed that offensive linemen have the longest average careers, the lowest average salaries of players taken high in the draft, and the lowest bust potential based on history.

Then you consider how a team with a dominant offensive line can win with average skill position players, but a team with great skill position players can lose with a poor offensive line.

Add it up, and I’d be happy to see the Vikings commit a 1st round pick to each spot on the line for 5 straight drafts, if there was a player worthy of that pick in each slot. The last 5 drafts have seen LT drafted in the top 5 picks. Other line spots are usually sparse in the 1st round, with top name guards, centers, and RTs usually going in the 2nd round or later. Inexcusable for a team with revolving door QB’s and the best RB in the league to not have a great line.

by rovibe on Oct 17, 2011 8:26 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Would the Vikings trade J Allen to

New England for their first round pick?

by Vikefandc on Oct 17, 2011 8:42 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Wouldn't

we want to trade him to a team where we could get a higher #1?

"Show me a hero, and I will write you a tragedy." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

by abba7 on Oct 17, 2011 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd take a late 1st and a 3rd

plus his salary would come off our books, but not just a late 1st rounder.

by nmvikesfan on Oct 17, 2011 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

For me

You only trade a veteran player with more than a few years left in his career unless you can get back a pick with which you can reasonably expect to get his replacement AND something else.

It’s unlikely you would be able to replace Jared Allen with a late first round pick. Then it becomes a numbers game. Is a lesser player (the late first round pick) and another potential starter (the 3rd rounder) enough? Maybe, but I guess I’d say I would want more, especially is we gave up a first and two thirds to get him, and his value should only be higher now.

A high first round pick and the third starts to look tempting.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, we want higher #1 but

Only teams in the Super bowl hunt would make the trade. So would we trade Allen for the 30th pick? I don’t think so but who knows. He’s 29.

by Vikefandc on Oct 17, 2011 8:50 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

O line

Like most of you I agree that the vikings problems now start with the O line, but they have also missed on a lot of draft picks. The tavaris pick still baffles me, in the 2nd round when most had him in the 5th if at all. Strong teams are built up front, can you imagine AP running behind the broncos line of the late 90s? or the hogs of the 1980s? My question is how the front office doesn’t see the glaring holes the average fan does? Berrian has been a bust since his first year with the vikings, the safety position hasn’t been solved since sharper left. The O line hasn’t been solid for 10 years, and while I wasn’t a huge farve fan, maybe his ability to read defenses and see the field masked the O line problem in 2009.
I like Gerhart, but did we really need a RB with the 2nd round pick? The Vikes did well with Harvin, and obviously Peterson, Greenway was a solid pick, but our homegrown talent just isn’t there.

by david f on Oct 17, 2011 10:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Whenever someone deals with New England, they all end up with the sh*tty end of the stick. As a matter of fact I’m still feeling pain from the Herschel Walker deal with the Cowboys….

by Bobcat m on Oct 18, 2011 5:02 AM CDT reply actions  

Solutions

If we look where are now and a potential starting OL in 2013, we have this maybe

LT
LG: DeMarcus Love (Hutch has retired)
C: Brandon Fusco
RG:
RT:

We need to sort out 3 line positions. I would consider the following:

Bring Chris DeGeare up from the practise squad. He did ok in his rookie season and we really should give him a run in the team

Sign Ryan Harris. The 3rd round former Broncos player from Minneapolis, was cut by the Eagles having signed as a free agent, after back surgery, but if medically fit, is a significant upgrade over Loadholt.

Draft a LT. Kalil and Martin are the Top2. But Reilly is talented. And we might be able to trade down a little, still take him and then have extra Day2 picks. Those Day2 picks could be used to trade back up into R1 for a WR like Michael Floyd who could slide.

Draft depth on Day3: With a 4th, 5th and 3x 7th (Cleveland’s and NYG’s) we should take a couple of depth players like Tom Compton who could become a swing tackle and a C like Scott Wedige who could provide cover on the interior.

The 2013 line then looks like

LT: Riley Reiff (R1)
LG: DeMarcus Love (R6)
C: Brandon Fusco (R6)
RG: Chris DeGeare (R5)
RT: Ryan Harris (FA but an original R3 selection)

by Voyageur on Oct 18, 2011 6:42 AM CDT reply actions  

DeGeare is not starting material

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Couple of things

DeGeare looked pretty bad last year when he was forced to play. Sure, he was rookie, and maybe he has improved or will improve, but last year, he did not look okay.

Second, I don’t think Hutch will be retired in 2013, but who knows.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

The terrible truth is other than the first round we do terrible at drafting

Look how many draft picks we’ve wasted on the secondary, receivers… Lots and lots. We honestly need to get better at drafting or we’ll be like the Lions with Millen at the helm. First round draft picks shouldn’t bust, neither should second and yet a lot of second round picks have or are close to busting, after second round I can’t really think of to many people who are making a solid contribution to the team.

We truly need better drafting.

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 8:24 AM CDT reply actions  

4th round has been good

Ray Edwards and Brian Robison are solid. Christian Ballard and Everson Griffin promising.

5th, 6th and 7th rounds havent been a total loss: Brandon Burton, Joe Webb, Letroy Guion, John Sullivan, Jasper Brinkley, Jamarca Sanford, Demarcus Love, Brandon Fusco.

Don’t get me wrong, the 2006 draft was questionable. But Fran Foley is no longer here. The drafting since 2007 has been much better than it’s been in a long, long time.

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes and no

First round picks have been pretty good, and the Vikes have mined some gold with later round picks—Ray Edwards in the 4th, who was a good starter here, little early on Ev Griffen and Christian Ballrd, but they look promising, and Brian Robison has panned out well.

But it’s the 2nd and 3rd round picks, guys that should make up the heart of the roster with talent that ranges anywhere from league average to very good, is what’s killing the Vikes.

2006: Cook, TJ, and Cedric in the second round. Ced was pretty good until he got hurt, and TJ and Cook were bad.
2007: Sidney Rice in the second and Marcus McCauley in the third. Gone and bust.
2008: Tyrell Johnson inthe second and no third rounder because of the Allen trade. Bust and great trade.
2009: Loadholt in the second and Asher Allen in the third. To this point, bust and bust.
2010: Cook and Gerhart, both in the second, no third. Still early, but promising.
2011: Rudolph in the second, no third. Very earlt, but looks like a very good pick.

The Vikes problem is that they look for skill guys early, or have in recent drafts, with the thought they can find a developmental guy in later rounds for the line and bring him along. That was fine when Tice was the o-line coach, because he was the king of taking average guys and turning them into decent linemen, a la Corbin Lacina. But it’s been a complete bust of a philosophy since he left, and that’s very evident now.

Some people just need a high five. In the face. With a chair.

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire

by Ted Glover on Oct 18, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

i think you hit the nail on the head

3rd round has sucked. Other than using one in aquiring Jared Allen, we have absolutely nothing to show for the 3rd round.

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah thanks for putting that in a way everyone could understand

the meat of our draft has been missing for a very long time. You can’t build a team just on qst round draft picks (unless you’re the patriots and have 10)…

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nice write up Ted

Not to detract from the focus here, but I would take the 2009 Vikes team over the 1998 team. There was more balace in 2009. And the 2009 D was much better than the 1998 D. 1998 offense was better than the 2009 version, but not by much.

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 9:27 AM CDT reply actions  

Hmmm, that's a topic worthy of it's own post

I’ll take the ’98 team. Way better offensive line. They could run when they wanted to—Robert Smith had a great year, but with Moss, CC and Jake Reed the passing game was just unstoppable.

As to the defense, I think they were pretty even.

Some people just need a high five. In the face. With a chair.

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire

by Ted Glover on Oct 18, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

It would be an interesting debate

I just remember thinking that 2009 hurt more than 1998. I firmly believe that the 2009 team was the best team in the league. I don’t think the 1998 team would have beaten Denver in the Super Bowl.

Favre, AP, Harvin, Rice, Shank, Sauce
or
Cunningham, Carter, Moss, Smith, Glover, Hoard?

Jared Allen, Pat Williams, Kevin Williams, Chad Greenway, Antione Winfield
or
John Randle, Robert Griffith, Jerry Ball, Ed McDaniel, Jimmy Hitchcock

Offense
QB—2009
Oline—1998
WRs-1998
RB—2009
TE—2009

Defense
Dline—2009
LBs—2009
DBs—toss up

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

But

The RB spot is actually closer than it might seem. AP is great, but Smith was pretty darn good too, especially in a system where he wasn’t the center of the offense because of the great wide outs.

Also, with Carter, Moss and Reed (not sure why you left him off), who needs a TE who can catch?

(As a side note, looking at that roster the next three wideouts, Hatchette, Walsh and Tate would compete to start on today’s squad).

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree about the receivers

That might have been the greatest receiving corps from top to bottom in NFL history.

And yes Robert Smith was a very, very good player. It is no disrespect to him whatsoever. AP is simply the best running back the Vikings have ever had.

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

K-Sauce was on both teams...

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

K-Sauce was drafted in 1999

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe Grime

was thinking of Hunter Goodwin! lol

"Show me a hero, and I will write you a tragedy." - F. Scott Fitzgerald

by abba7 on Oct 18, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Meh I was off by a year sue me. :)

Also, the sausage was born a Vike! (i win!)

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we had the '98 O line in '09

THAT would have been the greatest Vikings team ever.

by scottfromcmh on Oct 18, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

and the receivers.. Drool.

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem that the 98 defense had was that offense scored to quickly

So they were on the field forever. Even when we decided to run the ball Robert Smith would zip off 40 yard runs. Amazing season all around 15-1.. Best season I’ve ever seen hands down… Plus obviously Gary Anderson is a better kicker than Longwell! :D

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

looking back at the roster

That defense wasn’t terribly strong on talent, though. Randle was the only legit star.

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Correct

Ed McDaniel had a solid season, but that was essentially the only time he played at that level.

Dwayne Rudd and Jimmy Hitchcock were opportunistic with some defensive TD’s but overall the defense was achilles heel of that team.

"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.

by NMVike on Oct 18, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just not Adcock

He’s got the same concrete shoes as Loadolt. Datko has a shoulder injury and has fallen to the second round. Also I don’t think Adams is left tackle matierial.

by emeyenburg on Oct 18, 2011 9:52 AM CDT reply actions  

FSU fan here

Datko is out all season with that shoulder (multiple surgeries on it) and he’s trying for a medical redshirt this year to come back next. Most people however think he’ll never start a game for us again—unfortunately not the player you want to get in the draft.

by timephone on Oct 18, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not just the draft picksq

It’s scouting overall. Aren’t there lots of league average or better linemen (not to mention QBs and other positions) out there who were undrafted free agents? Other than Sherels, have we had signed any undrafted free agents who have turned into contributors in years?

by amiller92 on Oct 18, 2011 10:29 AM CDT reply actions  

Yes

They signed Donald Penn OT in 2006 and Kyle Cook C in 2007 but chose to release them which was a Childress decision.

by MarkSP18 on Oct 18, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's beginning to look like most drafted by Minnesota are busts

Other than Harvin & Peterson, who fell in our laps, I can’t think of 1 player in the last 5 years who was a ‘good value’ in the draft for the Vikings.

WHO has actually turned into a better than average player than those two?Cook was a horrible 1st pick last year, and now I have no faith in Ponder just based on these multiple failures. Kinda makes me sick watching Dalton play for the Bengals.There were amazing stats right after he was drafted about how he plays under duress. Ponder did not fare well under the same conditions in college.
Good God, it’s like we have to start over completely. START with the GM.

by scottfromcmh on Oct 18, 2011 11:28 AM CDT reply actions  

Robison, Edwards, Rice were all solid drafts for their spots

however we lost Edwards and Rice with no recompense which is kinda stupid.

Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.

by Grime on Oct 18, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

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