Can Jared Allen win the League MVP?
by Cobra312004 on Oct 30, 2011 8:30 PM CDT
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We all know that Jared Allen is having a banner year after having "only" 11 sacks last season. His bounce back has shocked exactly no one around here, but is still drawing very little national attention. That's something I expect to change if he continues on his current pace.
To answer my own question; No, he probably won't get MVP consideration. There's far too many options at the glamor positions this year for the voters to pay attention to a working stiff from the trenches. And it's always incredibly rare for a defensive player of any position to receive that honor, much less a lineman (Alan Page remains the only lineman to accomplish it in fact). But is it possible? I think it is. See Jared Allen's stat line through 8 games this year after the jump.
12.5 sacks (leads the league by 4!)
3 forced fumbles (tied for 1st in the league)
3 fumble recoveries (tied for 1st in the league)
1 Interception
4 passes defended
34 tackles (3rd in the league among defensive linemen)
Projected over 16 games (for those that REALLY can't do math), that puts him at:
25 sacks* (NFL record)
6 forced fumbles
6 fumble recoveries
2 interceptions
8 passes defended
68 tackles
If Jared managed to match or better those projections, he would have to be in the conversation for League MVP, no matter how good Aaron Rodgers, Calvin Johnson and our own Adrian Peterson continue to be. But what are the odds he could do that? I mean these are some pretty absurd numbers we're talking about.
Probably better than you'd think actually. Since Allen heated up following a painfully slow, mulletless start last season, he's been on an unstoppable and frighteningly consistent tear. Since Week 9 of 2010 (aka, his last 17 games), Allen has accumulated 22.5 sacks. In fact, in those 17 games, Jared has registered at least half a sack in 16 of them (with 6 multiple sack games).
So what about his projections for the other stats? Piece of cake. Except for his sack numbers, none of his projected totals even exceed his career bests in each category. Granted, none of them have been in the same year like this, but he is absolutely capable of reproducing (or even exceeding) those totals.
Now, let's make sure I'm perfectly clear about this. I am not saying that I think Jared Allen will continue this. These are extremely gaudy numbers to be sure and teams will continue to focus on him as the season goes on. What I am saying is that he can do it and that if he does, we may be witnessing one of the greatest seasons by a defensive lineman in NFL history. And I don't think it's too early to speculate that something like that deserves to be in the running for the highest honor in the sport.
Besides, it's the start of our bye week. What else is there to talk about? Ice fishing?
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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Just to put this in perspective further...
These are Allen’s season totals from 2009, his last year as an All-Pro:
14.5 sacks, 5 FF, 3 FR, 1 Int, 4 PD, 51 tackles
And through 8 games this year:
12.5 sacks, 3 FF, 3 FR, 1 Int, 4 PD, 34 tackles
Unfortunately no...
as i stated in an earlier post today. The league does not give MVPs to defensive players any more. LT was the last Defensive player to get the MVP back in ’85 I think.
Anymore?
There’s no anymore. They never did really. Alan Page in ‘71 and Lawrence Taylor in ’86. That’s it. I think we underestimate how hard it was for them to win.
and...
Allen could break the sack record and not set the sack record. Ware has a ton and is on pace to break the record also.
It should also be noted that Ware has already had his Bye.
But I don’t see any Interceptions, or fumble recoveries for touchdowns.
And they won't give it to a player on a losing team
unfortunatly
"Winning isn't everything but losing is nothing" - Ace Bricka coach of the Galaxy Aces
plus
he’s a Viking and as such won’t get the credit he deserves
A successful coach needs a patient wife, loyal dog, and great quarterback - and not necessarily in that order.
-- Bud Grant
by PurpleValhalla on Oct 30, 2011 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions
MVP? No.
DPOY? Yes.
If they had one of the top D’s in the league and a bye week in the playoffs, maybe.
Unless there's a major drop off
I think DPOY is almost a lock at this point.
Again, not saying I think he will WIN if he keeps this up. Just saying he will be in the conversation and probably receive some votes.
Also, he now only leads in sacks by .5
Ware had 4 tonight, he’s up to 12. He’ll probably slip past Allen next week.
If he does it
He can become a Judge then too!!!!
A bird in the hand is worth about 10.99 at KFC and makes me lick my chops
Yummy!!!!!
by kdog69 on Oct 31, 2011 12:27 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Defensive MVP, absolutely.
League MVP…. That is a tough question.
If Rodgers keeps up his current pace, then no. Even if Allen keeps up his pace.
He is playing lights out without a question
The real question for me is how much can they get for him in a trade?
And can Everson Griffen take over that spot? Of course he will not play as well as Allen but he is becoming quite a good looking young player.
I know it is not popular and I have not put it into any of my mocks (yet) but with so many holes to fill and a viable candidate to take over, is it not too crazy of an idea?
Do I need to ease up on the schnapps? :)
Considering he is going to make 11.62 mil next year and 14.28 mil in 2013 it is worth a thought.
Cleveland has two first round picks and two fourth round picks. Would they give up a first and a fourth or a 2013 third for him? Should the Vikings take it?
Imagine if the Vikings could get the Browns first and third this year. Two first round picks would go a long way towards rebuilding the team. A WR and an offensive lineman in the first.
Allen’s stock will be at it’s highest at the end of this year which is very impressive.
If I was GM I would see what offers I could get though and would probably trade him for more picks with at least one being a first round pick this year. New England has two first and two seconds which are towards the end of the rounds (right now). I would take a first and second from them in a heart beat.
Now that I have thrown it out there I do not think it will happen but it is an interesting thought and strategy going forward in the rebuilding process.
What about Griffen moving to MLB?
He’s needs to work on his coverage skills but he’s big, fast, and doesn’t stop working. He’s been playing standing up quite a bit this year. He’s played inside on the DL. He’s played stand up LB in a 3-3 nickel formation and his pursuit on special teams is incredible. EJ is slowing down. Hats off to the guy for recovering the way he has but you have to wonder how much he has left.
by AlldayFurore on Oct 31, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
I do not think Griffen will ever be good enough in coverage
He is a defensive end first and foremost. That is what he has played his entire career.
I would leave him at DE and let him grow as a DE.
Unfortunately
Griffen’s best position seems to be rush OLB in a 3-4. I think he’d be a Pro Bowler there. Too bad that doesn’t do us any good.
Yes, he’s been playing well, but he’s gonna be a huge drop off from Allen still (keep in mind that Allen has more sacks than 4 entire teams this year). Not sure if it’s worth making our defensive line so average to pick up a few extra picks. Building our offense at the expense of our defense leaves us in the same spot we are now IMO.
And for my money, if we did have two first round picks, we should spend them both on offensive linemen. It’s the fastest and most effective way to instantly improve your line for a long time. Worked great for the Jets and 49ers. And there are lots of good WR’s to be had in the 2nd round still.
yes...all of that....except, i think griffen would do well if replacing allen.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I disagree
I think he’s talented and very athletic. But Allen is averaging nearly 12 sacks a year (if he continues this pace, his average will rise to near 13). There’s no other 4-3 end in the league that is close to that kind of production.
We’ve been spoiled the last few years, but he is absolutely critical to our Tampa-2, where generating a pass rush from the front four is the most important element of the defensive scheme.
well, i don't think anyone will replace allen's production, but...
i think griffen would do well if we moved allen and griffen took over his spot.
granted, moving allen would only be because we would get a big return that
results in getting a few other solid players to fill the many voids…
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I just don't think it's worth the risk
If Griffen is just average or slightly above, our defense will continue to get worse and we’re back where we started when we traded for Allen in the first place.
i agree with the other arguments in this fanpost...
that we need to improve our team in several areas, and that by the time we get to be a playoff team again, he will be on the downslide and not worth much in trade.
i just try to see the bigger picture. if we had studly linebackers and d-backs, then our entire defense would be much better, and we wouldn’t have to rely on one player’s pass rush ability to make up only a little bit of the difference.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
How can you be so certain he'll be on the downslide
Hell, it would seem to me that even a downsliding Jared Allen is a pretty respectable player, given how amazing he is right now. I don’t think the drop-off you’re predicting will be as much as you think, simply because Allen doesn’t rely on his physical abilities so much as technique. Even when his body does start to decline, he’ll probably have the savyness to make an impact.
I get you’re trying to think out of the box and fix up other holes on the team, but I think it would be a better idea to try trading Kevin Williams, Antoine Winfield, or Chad Greenway instead of Allen if all you’re looking for is picks. They won’t get as much as Allen, but the defense won’t be at such a loss without them as they would be minus Allen either.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Oct 31, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
should have said "downside".
the intention would be to trade while there is still value, like i have said, while he still has something left in the tank. as for kevin williams, if he is playing poorly, then surely we won’t get much in return for him. so, i am not sure that trading kevin would be considered a really significant move anyway.
although, i suspect that he is still slowed by the plantar faciitis.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Well, since you like comparing to the Patriots,
they wait to trade their players until there isn’t much left in the tank. Allen has a few more years left in him at least. Enough for a new contract once he plays out his current one, if they don’t extend it before then. (Although they don’t seem to like extending contracts before they’re up)
Obviously we won’t get as much for Kevin Williams as we would for Allen, but we might be able to secure a 3rd rounder for him, which is a decent value for a player of his age and impact. But, hey, anything for draft picks, right?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
The situations are not the same and it is not hard to see
Allen has the most value and will surely get a first round pick in return plus another pick (third at least).
And on top of that they do have a very interesting and intriguing prospect to take over for Allen and they are trying to find ways to get him on the field right now.
Who is going to take over for KWill? The guys playing next to him now are not doing too well.
It is easier to just say that you would not trade Allen period rather than coming up with an alternative that is not comparable.
We don't have a replacement for Allen either
You’re crazy if you think Griffen can come close to replacing Allen. Our entire defense falls apart without him. No one besides Williams demands a double team. And no one else can even consistently beat single blocking, in the run or passing game.
But it seems to be a fundamental difference in belief here. You want to trade Allen because you see our team as 2-3 years from competing. I see the turnaround teams like the Bucs, the Bills and the 49ers are making and say that’s probably not the case. I really think we are closer than you and many others around here think.
You’re crazy if you think Griffen can come close to replacing Allen. Our entire defense falls apart without him.
that’s why we are trying to discuss the idea of beefing up the entire defense, and how we might possibly achieve that.
but i am only repeating myself, over, and over, and over.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
It isn't exactly beefing up the entire defense
That’s counting on the F.O. to use the picks to competantly add talent to the secondary, something they’ve struggled to do for a while now. And it comes at the expense of giving away our pass-rush.
If every pick we got from an Allen-trade turned into a sure-fire solid, starter, sure, I’d be all for it. But as it is, that seems very unlikely. I’ll stick with the all-pro talent over gambling on freshblood anyday.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I know they will not trade Allen
nor am I advocating that they do (yet). I was just throwing it out there for discussion because he is one of two players that should garner a first round pick plus something else.
So if a person feels that we need to improve other areas even at the risk of weakening the DE spot (some) then this is a realistic avenue to get those draft picks.
I was saying the same thing two years ago about trading Edwards for picks and got a lot of blow back about how valuable Edwards was and how Robison could not handle the job or he would be doing it already.
The Vikings need to adopt the philosophy of trading a player a year early rather than a year late.
With Allen it may not be this off season. Maybe the next or the next after that?
I will say that I do not believe his stock will be any higher after this off season though. And that is not necessarily a bad thing either. It is just the way it works.
I am a bit crazy because I do believe Griffen can start for an NFL team
Griffen is good enough that they are trying figure out ways to get him on the field and you say he cannot replace Allen. Well nobody can replace his sacks but there is more to it than sacks.
And the Vikings would not be two to three years out if they can beef up the offensive line and utilize AP to his full potential.
If the Vikings want to get more picks Allen is the one guy they can possibly trade.
Well AP is another but I can save that scenario for another story.
Yeah, Allen brings more to the table than just sacks
Sure, they need to beef up the O-line, everyone would agree with that. But Allen seems to be the cog that makes the defense go. We’d be trading one problem for another. I’m sure Griffen is a good player, but he isn’t beating out Robison. If he was good enough to start, he would be.
They want to get him on the field, but they’re clearly not comfortable doing that at the DE position just yet.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's not forget about Jasper Brinkley
Jasper is more than a capable MLB, but he could work on his coverage as well.
I think before you do anything that drastic (i.e. trading him for only a 1st and 3rd) you see if you can extend his contract and spread out the salary.
It is clear teams will give up a TON of picks for average talent (see Palmer, Carson and Jones, Julio). First you try to extend his last 2 years to 4-5 and bring the salary down to 7-9 mil a year. If he will do that, under no circumstance should you trade him. If he wont then yea you need to get rid of him while you can still get something in return. If he doubles his YTD totals and breaks the sack record there is no way you can move him for less than what the Raiders gave up to get Palmer. 1 first and a conditional 2nd (that can turn into a first). If you just trade him for a first and third you need to spend that first or a second trying to replace him (so you lose that pick anyway). Griffen might be slightly above league average, maybe, but in no way could replace Allen as a full time starter next year if we wanted to have even a remotely competitive defense next year.
by viking_#28 on Oct 31, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know it is not going to happen and probably will not even if he does not restructure.
But if I wanted to get some picks and get Griffen into the starting lineup then Allen is the second biggest chip they have.
That's not a bad idea... It gets ripped all the time
But will his value ever get any higher? We are probably talking a 1st and a 2nd for him this off-season (especially if he gets up to 18-20 sacks). Hello LT, RG, WR, and DT in the first 2 rounds? Sign me up… I think Robison, Griffen, and Christian Ballard, along with our other DE’s, make up an above average group still. Not great, but good.
He’s good, and we all love him, but at 30 years old he’s going to start losing a step or two pretty soon…
They need to at least get what they gave up for him i believe.
He was a great player before he came here and now he is easily one of the best DE ever to play the game. we gave up a 1st and 2 3rd’s right? and it was a early mid rd pick? We need to get back at least 3 picks unless they are for 2 firsts this year.
A first and 2 thirds...
I would rather have a first and a second. I think we could get that too if he plays like this for a whole season. I look at it this way…
We will probably be competing for a playoff spot again in 2 years… 3 for sure.
That puts him at 31 or 32 when we are a factor again.
With him on our team, we are only getting worse draft positions.
If we traded him, we’d be in a better position in the draft, and we’d have more picks.
Basically, if we’re going to re-build (which we are), then re-build. This half-way rebuilding stuff only keeps mediocre teams mediocre. The teams who are great can usually stay great, and the teams who are bad will always improve through the draft.
I don’t want to be a team that’s 6-10, 8-8, 9-7, 5-11, 8-8, 7-9, etc…
If we’re going to re-build, then do it.
You paying attention?
The Bills are leading their division after having the 3rd worst record in the league last year. Teams can turn around FAST in the NFL once they have their QB. And we do.
I think you and I both had drafts in 2009 that talked about trading Allen
So, you’ve been drinking a loooong time… The point is if you get enough it’s hard not to do what you can to improve your team. However, I do really enjoy watching him play.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Yes I have been enjoying adult beverages for quite some time now than you very much!
I do like watching him play too. I am just throwing something serious out there for discussion.
Rec'd. Try and restructure Allen first and only trade him if you get a Carson Palmer type deal. Anything less and we're just treading water.
by CanadianViking on Oct 31, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
yes, that is a very reasonable approach. to not try anything is kind of a waste, imo.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
another option/strategy could be to
restructure and extend him after the season, to lighten his cap hit for the next 2 seasons that are currently on his deal. then keep him for a year or two more and then trade him for something when we have some more pieces in place and he still has some gas in the tank.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
This is probably the best approach. Get a year or two more of great play for him and then sell just before he starts to decline.
If we follow the New England example they seem to trade their big-name players a year after they’re elite but while they’re still good enough to net a good draft pick or two. Restructuring Allen to reduce his cap hit and keeping him for two more years while he’s still elite and than trading him in 2013’s offseason for picks would be ideal. I think he’s too good to part with right now, but in 2 years time he’ll be 32 and probably starting to slow down. The guy on the team that I might look to deal for high picks this year would be Kevin Williams. He’s still really good but I don’t think he’s elite anymore and his age dictates that he’s likely going to decline more. I’d like to know what Williams would fetch in a trade right now. I’d guess that the Vikings could get a similar deal to what New England got for Richard Seymour.
by CanadianViking on Oct 31, 2011 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Not trying to change the subject here (but I am)
Looks like your entire fantasy team is on a bye buddy.. Just in time for me to take you to task too! Oops ended that with a preposition. Just in time for me to take you to task too, you stinking Canuk! There that’s better.. Lucky for you my teams stinks on ice so you still have more points on the board than I do even with your QB, WR’s and RB’s off the board…
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Ha, I noticed that too right after I was bragging how unbeatable my team was : )
Newton, AD, Steve Smith on byes and Hakeem Nicks is questionable. This could be a tough week but it’ll be even better if I can beat you with some random waiver wire fill ins! I think I can scrounge up a couple decent WRs but I have no idea who my RB2 and QB will be. Still think I’m going to win the league but I don’t like my chances this week against you.
by CanadianViking on Nov 1, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Well the good part is you are against me
And my teams is about as good as a seal playing hockey with polar bears…
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Speaking from a fan standpoint,
I want Allen to retire a Viking. Getting a bunch of draft picks for him would be amazing, but it wouldn’t feel right not seeing #69 getting the crowd pumped up. So few great things happen for the Vikings, I want to cling to that feeling as long as possible. And Allen is one of those great things.
Then again, looking at the future, that would be a smart move. We need to get many positions fixed if we want to be a contender in a few years. Rebuilding in the draft and getting a couple key free agents would certainly be amazing and the smartest way to rebuild via the draft, would be to get as many high round picks as we can.
So I’m rather torn. But I think my fan side will always outweigh my logical side. That’s why I still cheer when I see Kleinsasser get a pass and do his usual bellyflop to the ground. Or completely freak out if he gets a touchdown. So my vote is keeping Jared. Haha
You don't get better by trading away your best players
Don’t take them for granted by forgetting how hard they are to replace.
i don't think you can make a blanket statement like that.
he plays a specialty position. qb is more critical, for instance.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
He plays a premier position
As the QB’s value increases, so does the value of players that can get to QB’s.
so maybe we ought to figure out how to get premier players to protect he qb...
thus the point of discussing any potential trade of an asset like allen.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I said it before, I'll say it again
I don’t think it’s worth gutting what’s left of our defense to build our offense.
if moving one player is considered "gutting the defense"...
then maybe the defense has some real big problems. i’m willing to see what the market will offer for a jared allen….and then consider the options.
that goes for any player on the roster. i want a solid team. not a one trick pony on defense and a crappy record.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
The defense does have some real big problems
But Allen isn’t one of them. Trading him doesn’t make any sense to try and repair them. Sure, you get more draft picks, but you just create another problem by doing so. If we had somebody to replace Allen’s playmaking, I’d be all for it. Fact is, we don’t, and we likely won’t. Trading him is taking a step back on defense.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Oct 31, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
that seems kind of a blanket statement and a little narrow, imo.
nobody is saying that jared allen is a problem on defense. but if we have many holes on defense and on offense to fill, we have to do it somehow, especially with the salary cap to consider. but simply refusing to consider options seems unwise….(see patriots history).
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I'm not saying Jared is a problem on defense
nobody would. What I meant was the defense has problems, and Jared Allen certain’y isn’t. I don’t know how you got something else.
Sure, we have to do it somehow.. but not by trading, arguably, our best player, and one of the best players in the league. That is taking steps back. It will be going quantity over quality. Aside from that, the team won’t even consider trading Allen anyway, so it seems a pointless discussion to compound the bizareness of it.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Oct 31, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m not saying Jared is a problem on defensenobody would. What I meant was the defense has problems, and Jared Allen certain’y isn’t. I don’t know how you got something else.
of course that is what i mean…but i don’t weant to discuss the issue with you anymore. it is old and tired, imo.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I figured this would come up eventually
but simply refusing to consider options seems unwise….(see patriots history).
The Patriots are in a position where they can unload players and still be competitive. They haven’t been in rebuilding mode for over a decade. It’s nice but it’s a luxury.
the patriots had 2 picks in each of the first 3 rounds last year.
they were coming off of a 14-2 season. they are constantly re-tooling their team. i think that is why they stay so competitive each year. clearly, whatever they are doing is working, and whatever the vikings f.o. has been doing has only given modest to mediocre results. and here we sit at 2-6 after a 6-10 year after selling out on one lottery ticket in 2009. yet, the organization still won’t admit that they are in a re-building mode.
smart organizations don’t so it like spielman and co.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Unfair comparison
They have had one of the greatest QB’s of all time running their offense for the last decade. Everyone knows it’s easier to stay competitive with a QB of that caliber, which is why we have kept trying to land one of our own. Culpepper and Jackson failed to be that answer, but at least they tried. Hopefully Ponder gives us the flexibility to copycat the Patriots.
You follow the Patriots model to stay competitive. You don’t follow their model to rebuild. It won’t work.
Yeah, really
If anyone’s model to rebuild should be followed, it should be the Lions’ the past few seasons. They got their franchise QB, then built up their D-line. It helps having a game-breaker like Megatron on the team too.
But, really, for regaining quick relevance, I’d say they’re the team to look at more than any other. And, crazily enough, they did it without trading their best players.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
i wi;; post more on this soon. it is a great comparison.
they achieve results through intelligence and planning.
we are 2-6 coming off 6-10. they have their franchise qb but, they need more than just that. AND they built their team with drew bledsoe, tom brady was a 199 pick. they have re-tooled to stay fresh and in flux. there is no swinging at the pinata for them. and detroit has sucked ass forever. they are looking better this year, but when was the last time they made the playoffs?
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Well.. they're on pace to this season..
And it looks like they’re set up for years to come with their franchise QB and superstar WR leading the way. In fact, this year, I’m pretty sure they have as many wins at the Patriots do.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
tha pats do it year in and year out...
when was the last time the lions went to the playoffs?
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
You get better for the future
if said player is getting a little older and might not be around or might not be playing at this level when you’re (potentially) in contention in a few years. Assuming that you get quality players from those picks. I’ve never taken Allen for granted. That’s why I said I want him to retire a Viking. And my fan side will overrule all other sides for me. Above all else, even though it could be argued that it might be a good move since we’re in a rebuilding stage, which we should be because this team needs a lot of things, I want Allen to stay here as long as possible. Even better, retire a Viking. Then go into the Hall of Fame and live a long, healthy life. Best case scenario, of course. Haha
Sure, we're in a rebuilding stage
but that doesn’t mean we should go around trading away one of the premier players in the league. Solid starters who are old, I could understand. Winfield could be traded, Kevin Williams can be traded. Jared Allen? No thanks. Much rather keep him. He still has quite a few years left in football. I’d wager once the rebuilding period is over, he’ll still be a significant contributor on defense because of his drive and technique.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Oct 31, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Not only that
But he seems to be the guy that keeps the D fired up as best he can and that’s an intangible that is tough to replace.
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
I never said that we should.
In fact, I’ve been saying the exact opposite of that. I was just pointing out both sides of the argument and then stating my view on it. Which is having him retire with us. To be absolutely clear to everyone, so I stop getting replies saying that there’s no way we should trade him, I want Jared Allen on this team until he retires. Or stops being a viable starter. I do not think we should trade him. I was replying to MarkSP18 saying that we should think about trading him and my thoughts were that we should not.
i got what you wrote. good comment, you see both sides.
there are salary cap issues that also, but that might be layering tooooo much information onto the topic. we are still trying to allow the “we would get something in return” to be recognized as a point of discussion ;).
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I see your point, but I think Allen has earned his salary and is too valuable to trade unless the offer is ridiculously good.
If I were the Vikings I’d restructure and extend Allen’s contract to run through 2015 rather than trade him. For me I wouldn’t trade Allen for less than two middle to low firsts or one high first and one high second. I think he’s that valuable to the Vikings.
by CanadianViking on Oct 31, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
It will be hard to get that bounty
But when you look at what the Vikings gave up, if they could get back a first and third then that would be great since they had his services for four years IMO.
If they extend him then when is Griffen going to play?
I know some want to make him a LB and maybe he could do it but I like him as a DE.
We already have a bunch of run stopping LB's.
We need to get at least one that can be solid in coverage and I don’t think Grif is that guy. They do like him though, he’s been playing everything from DT to LB. Maybe we can line him up as a safety some time :D
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
I guess that's my point. I see Allen's value to the Vikings being a little higher than what he'd likely command in a trade.
Like Danny mentioned above it’d be nice to restructure Allen, keep him for another year or two, and then trade him. The picks wouldn’t be as good but I’d hate to part with Allen while he’s playing at an elite level unless somebody gives the Vikings a spectacular offer.
As for Griffen, I see him developing along the same path as Robison. Spend a few years as Jared’s primary backup, grab a few of Robison’s reps, play at DT on passing downs, and then sign a good contract extension to either replace Jared or Robison in two years time.
If we’re going to trade a big-name vet I’d nominate Kevin Williams as the best candidate. He’s still good but they’re signs that his age is causing him to fall out of the elite category. I’d trade KW this year and trade Allen after getting another year or two of elite play out of him.
by CanadianViking on Oct 31, 2011 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
KWill is another option but he will not command as much in return
and they do not have anyone who looks like they can handle his spot if he were gone.
Griffen looks pretty dang good and he should be starting next year. If he were on another team he would be starting already.
Could get a 3rd rounder for him
Or, I’ve seen somewhere somebody suggested trading him for Samuel. I still like that idea very much. I think it would play to the strengths of having the pressure we apply with a ballhawk, int-grabbing DB like Samuel on our team.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Samuel is 30 now and will turn 31 in Jan
I would have to say no thanks to him. Add in the fact that he is due 8.4 mil in 2012 and 10.4 mil in 2013 and that is too much money for a CB his age.
I think he is good but he likes to free lance a bit and gets burned at times. Plus I am not sure how he would fit in a cover 2 defense.
I am keeping Griffen myself. Allen is having a great year and there is no guarantee he will repeat it. He does average 12 sacks a year and countless other pressures.
I would keep Griffen. If there were a younger CB available then I would consider it but not right now.
Griffen doesn't have to play if he isn't better than the starters
He can be a back-up fill-in guy like Robison was. I can’t see the reasoning for trading Allen to be giving Griffen some playing time. I assume the best players play, and Allen is one of the best in the business. Why not extend Allen if he can keep up his strong contributions to the team? Seems kind of silly.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Oct 31, 2011 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
The Vikings have already released a statement about a JA trade
They have said no, and in fact seemed somewhat angry that there were notions of them letting go of such a good player
Really? Got a link?
I am not saying that you are not right but I do not recall him ever being on the block or them having to address the issue.
This is just a what if scenario. An attempt to get more than one first round draft pick.
I love Allen and would not want to part with him but with so many positions that need a good young player, I would take that risk. Allen probably has two or three years left. Maybe at this level or maybe closer to his 2010 level. No one knows for sure.
I would be enjoying his play more if they were winning. But since they are losing, I want to go ahead and start the rebuild now.
It was back during the trade-deadline
Jason Cole made some report about how the Patriots should trade for Allen. I’m sure Cole just jokingly asked if they’d trade him, and they responded as if he was serious.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Doubt it
I’m sure Cole just jokingly asked if they’d trade him, and they responded as if he was serious.
I have very little respect for Cole as a writer. His articles are ridiculous and often cite unnamed sources for his insanity. And of course he never addresses that he is wrong all the time.
I hate to say it...
But unless Aaron Rodgers totally collapses this year, he’ll win it. The media absolutely loves him. He’s having a great year. He’s the reigning Super Bowl MVP. His current stats:
2,372 yards, 71.5 comp. , 20 TD, 3 INT
In 7 games… Now, even if he plays worse the rest of the way… 2,300 yards, lowers his comp. % 5 points, and only gets 20 TD and 6 more picks in their final 9 games… He’ll still be sitting at:
4,600 yards, 66.5 comp. %, 40 TD, 9 INT…
That’s MVP right there. He’s almost guaranteed to get 4,500 yards, 65-70% comp. % 40+ TD and around 10 INT.
Add to that the fact that the media loves him and I don’t know if Allen would have a chance to beat him if we got 30 sacks. It’s a QB league, and JA’s having a great year. He’s just not even in the discussion for MVP.
I love Jared Allen
But no player on a 2-6 team should be in discussion for MVP. Sorry. DPOY? I can see that. But not MVP.
"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.
2-6 now
So right now he’s not in the discussion.
"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.
Read the post from viking_#28 that I was responding to in the first place
I dont think people are saying he should win, just that he should be in the discussion
I responded by saying nobody on a 2-6, i.e. a losing team should be in the discussion.
If the Vikes run the table and Allen continues on his pace, then by all means he will be in the discussion. WIth that being said, we are currently 2-6 despite JA’s sacktastic (I just made that word up and have begun the trademark process) performance, so if we do run the table it will most likely be because Ponder really lights it up down the stretch in which case he’d be the team MVP.
"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.
And this whole thread is a discussion about MVP
"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.
Have you seen our schedule?
Pre season I predicted we’d be 4-4 entering the bye… 1-5 or 2-6 after… We’re looking at a 4-12 or 5-11 season, no matter how well Ponder does.
You want to see something funny go to APC and look at the NFC north predictions someone made there
Who ever made it really thinks highly of Ponder he has us finishing at 8-8…
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
That's crazy...
I won’t say it’s impossible, but look at this schedule…
@GB
OAK
@ATL
DEN
@DET
NO
@WASH
CHI
I’d say we’ve got a pretty good chance to beat OAK and DEN, and a fair chance of beating WASH and CHI at home… The last two are hard to judge right now, they may or may not be playing for their playoff lives.
So, let’s say we get 3 wins there… We’re looking at 5-11, and that’s being generous. I don’t see us beating NO, @GB, @DET, or @ATL unless the other team has an absolute collapse or an injury to a star player (ok, an injury to their QB (they’ve all got good ones))…
It might be the toughest schedule remaining, with the only “gimme” being Denver at home… (which I don’t really see as a “gimme” at all)
i think you gotta throw some unknown in there...
how about, denver kicks our ass (with brady quinn) and we kick new orleaqns’ butt. then you still get your 5-11…but we get revenge on the saints.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
That'd be fine with me...
I’ve always kinda been a Quinn fan, and I’d much rather have him beat us than Brees.
But if we do beat Brees, I’d like it if we beat Quinn too. It is realistic that Christian Ponder plays great the rest of the year and we finish 4-12 though… I don’t think 5-11 is likely, but instead it’s being optimistic. I would be absolutely shocked if we ended 6-10 or better.
That struck me as more an abberation
I don’t think anyone will find the run-game as effective against the Saints. They’ll adjust from it (like the Bears did), Greg Williams is a good coordinator.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The Saints have never been a good run defense
They’ll make some adjustments, but the Saints defense is fundamentally designed to complement their high scoring offense. It’s built to defend the pass in a shootout, not stop the run in a TOP game.
NYG remaining schedule is absolutely brutal
I wish I had looked at it before I picked them to win the division!
"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.
As good as Jared Allen is....
He can’t single handedly win games. He almost won the Lions game by himself with that near safety but the MVP of the whole league has to win games. That’s why only QB’s have a real shot at it these days.
He's had some huge sacks at crucial times
And single handedly created more of our turnovers than anyone else.
There’s 11 guys out there. No one wins a game by themselves.
As good as Jared Allen is….He can’t single handedly win games.
agreed. that has been my position, and i have gotten grilled by the "i heart jared’ crowd.
but, he can effect the game because he is playing so lights out. he did yesterday.
2 of our scores were because we got turn overs that he caused ehich gave us
excellent field position…for two easy scores that kept us in the game.
without those, we get manhandled, imo.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Let this be a warning to anyone considering cutting their mullet
He cut the mullet after the 2009 season and slumped all of 2010. He has finally regained his mojo sans mullet, thankfully.
Correction
and slumped all of 2010
He slumped half of 2010. He had 10 sacks over the last 9 games last year.
I did not mention about Allen being MVP
I will say that historically it does not go to a player on a team with a losing record. It is just not going to happen. And they may also use it against him for the DPOY award as well.
I think the leading candidate for MVP are Aaron Rodgers. Then you have Big Ben, Brady, Brees, and LeSean McCoy.
Even if the Vikings were able to make the playoffs and Allen continued his current pace, it would be hard to give it to him over AP. AP is also having a pretty good year considering his line in front of him and the QB play at the start of the year.
It will be tough for Allen to get it unless he somehow creates a bunch of turnovers ina a few games that the Vikings were expected to lose and then they win.
Even then, if Green Bay continues on to a 14-2 record or so and Rodgers continues on his pace then it is a slam dunk.
exactly
And if the Vikes do circle the wagons and make the playoffs, the biggest factor will likely be the play of Ponder the rest of the way that does it; again detracting from what JA can/will do.
"God always comes first, then grades, (and lastly) football." 11-year old phenom Demias Jimerson on his reaction to being told that he cannot score more than 2 TD's per game in his Arkansas Pee-Wee football league.
I think it's basically a two horse race at this point
Aaron Rodgers vs. himself.
Barring injury or a catastrophic collapse, he’s a shoe in. But I have to believe that a DE breaking the sack record would get some people to sit up and take notice too. Watch the tape, it’s crazy what kind of attention he’s getting in protection, and he’s still getting his sacks/pressures/hits. Just when people were calling him washed up, turns out he’s putting together the best season of his career, and possibly one of the best in league history.
Realistically, no he doesn’t have a chance. I started the article with that. But it’s fun to have this generating so much discussion to kick off the bye week. =)
I don't think Strahan was even MVP
when he broke the sack record. DPOY, yes, but, and I’m likely wrong, but I think the Giants had a decent record that year too. We still could too, I guess. But its looking like we’ll finish up at 4-12 or 5-11 if we get some more bounces our way.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I seriously doubt 4-12
I don’t see us finishing lower than 6-10 personally. Our offensive production has improved substantially (and should only improve as Ponder gains more experience), all but one loss has been within 7 points and we finally played all four quarters of a game. All this makes it hard for me to believe that we will be 2-6 over the 2nd half of the season as well.
And RE: Strahan
Yes, he won NFL DPOY. No, he did not receive any MVP votes. And the Giants were 7-9 that year.
I don't know..
Look at the teams we play. Atlanta, the Saints, GB again, the Bears, the Lions. Those are some decent passing teams, and passing defense is clearly our weakness. Yes, we’ve had close games, and yes, Ponder is better than McNabb, but we barely squeaked out a win against the Panthers. Those teams are all better than they are.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 1, 2011 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
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