Arif Hasan’s mid-season review (Quarterbacks)
EDIT: This is an outstanding job by Arif, so I'm moving it to the front page. - Chris
Well, we’re halfway through the season and onto our BYE week. I haven’t done this before, but I’m going to act like I have – I’ll go through every position on our roster (starting with the offense, in particular the quarterbacks) and evaluate our progress, based on what I see and on the analytics I trust. I like using a combination of advanced statistics and grading as well as what I can see, and I think that using both is really what’s necessary for effective analysis. Numbers can do a lot – they will, for example, capture the intangibles in a much more real way than people will believe, simply because the intangibles result in real results. Perhaps they will not assign intangibles to particular people on the field, but we, with our eyes, can. I think a combination of both builds an effective narrative that allows us to move forward with the best understanding of our team in mind. Fair warning, this is about 4000 words.
Note: I had a brainwave in the shower and now have to edit something near the bottom.
QB: Christian Ponder – Hot Young Prospect. Hailed as the most NFL-ready of the draft, Vikings fans weren’t able to see the readiness of this prospect as easily as many other fans of different teams were able to. Foremost of his criticisms coming out of (and going into) the draft was his arm-strength. His greatest strength was his accuracy. How does he match up?
With a completion percentage of 51.9% over three games, one can imagine that there is significant room for improvement. Indeed, if one were to solely evaluate quarterbacks by their completion percentage, Christian Ponder would look absolutely abysmal (Tebow-esque? Not really, Tebow is at 46% with some garbage time help). His passes miss his receivers an astonishing 10% more than the league average. 6% of his passes are dropped, which is slightly higher than league average, but not by much. Compare this to Matt Moore, Charlie Whitehurst, or Sam Bradford, all of whom have 10% of their passes dropped, and Ponder seems to be gifted (certainly more than he was at FSU, if the limited tape I saw means anything). If you factor in dropped passes, spikes, and throwaways, Christian Ponder’s completion percentage is 55.5%, against a league average of 69%. That certainly isn’t encouraging. People with a lower adjusted completion percentage? Tim Tebow (52.94%), Carson Palmer (47.6%), and Bruce Gradkowski (41.67%). That’s it.
This isn’t altogether discouraging, though. Well, it is a little bit, but not as much as you’d think. Rookie quarterbacks who go on to be successful vary in their completion percentage from league average in their rookie year. Rookie quarterbacks with similar completion percentages from league average include John Elway, Don Majkowski, and Kerry Collins.
Better predictors of rookie success are average yards per attempt and touchdown percentage. They are not linearly predictive (that is, one cannot expect, generally speaking, for rookies who perform worse or better in these stats to necessarily perform proportionally worse or better as their career progresses), in two different ways. Rookies who average one yard less per attempt than league average will almost always do poorly in their career. Anything above that, and it is hard to tell. Rookies who average the same or better than league average do tend to do well, but it’s not as hard-and-fast as you think. Touchdown percentage (touchdowns per pass attempts) is similarly finicky – poor TD % is never predictive, but a good TD% is quite predictive. Don’t ask me why, I do not know.
Christian has 7.19 yards per attempt on the season, and the league average is 7.2. Successful rookie quarterbacks with a differential similar to 0.1 YPA (which is very good for a rookie) include Drew Brees and Troy Aikman. For nearly every quarterback, it is more productive and predictive to use Adjusted Yards Per Attempt, where one subtracts 45 yards for every interception and all sack yardage from the pass yardage total before dividing from the number of attempts. The reason I say "nearly" every quarterback, is because interception percentage has nearly no bearing on future rookie performance. Nevertheless, it is easy to calculate and compare. The league average on AYPA is 5.6 and Christian Ponder sits right below it at 5.5. That is extremely encouraging. Only one first or second year QB is above Christian Ponder in this category (Cam Newton) and Sam Bradford, Josh Freeman, Colt McCoy, Andy Dalton, Tim Tebow, and Blaine Gabbert all sit below him. QBs with more experience that sit below him include Jay Cutler, both ‘Skins QBs, Tarvaris Jackson, Mark Sanchez, and our own Donovan McNabb.
Something astonishing pops up though. When playing with the numbers – subtracting dropped passes, throwaways (which are on the whole good plays), sack yardage, and adjusting for interceptions while totaling completions per attempt, Christian Ponder is 7th in the league. League average for what I’m going to call Adjusted Yards Per Adjusted Attempts (AYPAA) is 5.68, with jokers like Kyle Boller, Luke McCown, and Charlie Whitehurst hanging out near the bottom. As AYPAA doesn’t value completion percentage as much as the NFL Passer Rating (a system where completions for negative yards are positive plays), it doesn’t correlate well with the NFL Passer Rating’s system. Aaron Rodgers is still on top (more on that later), but instead of Tom Brady, Eli Manning is number 2. Tom Brady is behind Drew Brees at number 4. 9 of the top 10 QBs in Passer Rating have winning records, while 8 of the top 10 in AYPAA have winning records. Nevertheless, I think AYPAA is a better predictive measure than Passer Rating, which is probably better at evaluating the current or past performance of a QB (as it incorporates touchdowns). At any rate, Christian Ponder is producing minimizing losses and maximizing gains, beating out Cam Newton in this category by a third of a yard.
Christian Ponder’s TD % is 4.08%. League average is 4.25%. This compares extremely favorably to rookies who went on to do well, who are generally 0.5% behind the pack. This is less true recently, however.
We saw 3 rookie QBs in 2008 who have a good sample size. Matt Ryan (-0.1%), Joe Flacco (-0.5%), and Chad Henne (-3.88%) – who threw 0 touchdown passes. Matt Stafford threw -0.7%, Mark Sanchez threw -0.85%, and Josh Freeman threw -0.7% compared to league average in 2009. In 2010, Sam Bradford threw -1.36%, Colt McCoy threw -1.71% (Ugh), John Skelton threw -2.82% (Oof), and Jimmy Clausen threw -3.41% (Oh my God, why). This certainly bodes well for our budding QB.
And this last statistic I think captures a lot of what we like about Christian Ponder. He doesn’t seem to complete every pass, but he sure makes them count. Against Green Bay, 12 of 13 of his completed passes were for a first down or a score. Against Carolina, 14 of 18 were for a first down or a score. He completed 9 of 10 passes on 3rd down, and converted 7 of them. Some of us (mostly me, I think) referred to 3rd down as "Ponder down" because of his great ability to convert on 3rd and long. He’s converted 53% of his third downs, and the best team on third down in the league is converting 48.8%. That’s out of control.
He has an awareness of the field, whether it’s the down marker or the pressure within the pocket. In fact, Christian Ponder has done something incredible, that we do not talk enough about. He ranks 5th in the league in sack percentage (sacks per dropback), behind the same line that Donovan McNabb accrued 16 sacks, or the 35th rank in the league (above such noteworthies as Tarvaris, Whitehurst, Moore, Blaine, Bradford, and Tebow). Not only that, Christian Ponder leads the league in having the lowest yards lost per sack, at 1.5. League average is 6.5. McNabb ranked 7th to last in that category too, with 7 yards lost per sack. Part of this is because McNabb ranks 12th lowest in throwaways per dropback, and Ponder ranks the absolute highest.
So if you combined it all together, low completion percentage and high-value plays, what do you get? Well, something that seems a hell of a lot better than most QBs in the league right now. That is, a Win Probability Added of .11 per game. That is, Christian Ponder’s plays add an 11% likelihood, per game, to our wins. This is why his completion percentage matters less than his completion percentage on third down. Because he makes plays when it counts. The average QB in the league adds 7% per game to their team’s win. Donovan McNabb added the exact opposite of Ponder, with -11% added to the win, per game. That’s right – his play was so awful that our team had to win in spite of him. Is this predictive? I don’t know – in fact, I kind of doubt it. But because it seems to speak to an ability that Christian Ponder has across the board, I’m willing to believe that it is in this case.
Given that he has the second highest yards per completion (13.85) in the league (second to Aaron Rodgers, at 13.91 and eking out Schaub, at 13.84), one can probably conclude that arm-strength isn’t a problem. However, knowing his adjusted completion percentage is 14% below the league average gives us pause to question his accuracy. My, that seems odd. This should be enough for us to temper our enthusiasm, but perhaps not by much. Quarterbacks don't often improve their accuracy by more than 2 percentage points after their first 16 games, and I know that in order for Christian Ponder to be the QBotF, he needs to work on this. I know he has only started 2 games, but I'm grading off what is available to me right now, and that means we know that all of this can be subject to radical change (good or bad). Given his high yards per completion, his accuracy is not as much of a concern as it could be, but it does mean that fewer plays of his are successful and that standard has its own value (it’s not always about averages).
Grade: B+
I should add that a QB who we should expect to be average (based on experience and his supporting cast, not rep), who then performs average, would get a C. I would likely give this to Joe Flacco or Josh Freeman at this point in the season. Rodgers would get an A+, Newton an A, etc. Peyton Manning gets an in absentia A+ and Valedictorian status.
QB: Donovan McNabb – Veteran Stop-Gap. A Quarterback one year removed from a Pro Bowl season, brought in to both fulfill a Vikings tradition of being a last gasp train station for retirees and to maintain competitiveness in a year with QB questions. Well-known for his low interception-to-touchdown ratio (or high touchdown-to-interception ratio) and with reasonable expectations of some mobility, Donovan McNabb was seen as a safe option to bring the Vikings out of the cellar and back to respectability come 2011.
Well, Donovan McNabb has almost exactly league average 60.3% completion percentage (average is 60.4%) and an adjusted completion percentage of 66%, compared to league average of 69.1%. This will surprise some of you, given that McNabb has an affinity for overthrowing or underthrowing the intended receiver, but this is generally the bias we all have for remembering the atypical over the typical. Also, remember he technically participated in many of our first halves.
While outdoing Christian Ponder in completion percentage by a significant margin, Donovan McNabb ranked much lower in Yards Per Attempt, a fairly significant statistic for determining a quarterback’s likelihood of winning in the future. He gained 6.58 passing yards per passing attempt, beating Josh Freeman and Kyle Orton (as well as several others) in doing so. Under the league average (7.24) by two thirds of a yard, he was simply not performing up to league standards. If one were to adjust completions for interceptions and sacks (and dropped passes, throwaways, and spikes), Donovan performs much worse – despite generally avoiding the huge penalty assigned to interceptions. His poor decisionmaking on broken plays and even poorer scrambling has left Donovan McNabb with 5.6 adjusted yards per adjusted attempt, falling short of the league average of 6.1 by half a yard. The reason this is worse given the adjustment is because the variance around the mean is so small that performances 1.5 below or 1.5 above are so noteworthy – grounds for MVP candidacy or immediate removal from the NFL. With vanilla YPA, one can see that a variance of 2 is more likely meets that level of significance.
I’ve already written about how Donovan McNabb performs in "pressure" situations. His awareness of the field – pocket collapsing or first down markers (or where his receivers hands were) has been abysmal. Despite having an offensive line that has allowed the 6th most QB pressures this year (Sacks + Hits + Hurries), McNabb has the 7th least amount of throwaways. He also takes more yards per sack, ranking as the 8th highest yards lost per sack – beating the league average by a yard and a half. He ranks 8th in total sack yards lost per game, having half a sack fewer per game than everybody above him on the list.
Out of the 33 QBs listed in NFL.com’s stat page (which isn’t enough and does not include QBs like Christian Ponder, the McCowns, or Tim Tebow), McNabb ranks 19th in 1st down %, converting exactly 1/3rd of his passes for a first down. In fact, under McNabb, the Vikings converted 35% of their third downs. Under Ponder, we have converted 53% of them. If we maintained the 53% average from the beginning of the season, we would be ranked 3rd in the league, behind San Diego and New Orleans and ahead of Pittsburgh. If we continued at 35%, we would be 20th in the league, behind Cincinnati.
Donovan McNabb has hurt his team’s chances to win by 11% a game. That’s .67 games lost just from his performance. More importantly, he doesn’t contribute to winning, which is his job. When you compare to the mean (7%), Donovan has contributed to our games a net negative 18%. Per Game. That is, an average quarterback would increase our chances to win over Donovan McNabb by an astounding 20%. If we had an average quarterback (say, the pretty inconsistent, but always passable Joe Flacco), they would have "won us" 1.2 more games. Perspective: in 2009, Peyton Manning contributed 6 wins over the course of the season (remember, this is by performance alone, not playcalling, morale, leadership, or, apparently, coaching) and elite quarterbacks tended to contribute 4 wins. That is, Peyton contributed 4.8 wins over average and elite quarterbacks contributed 2.8 wins over average. In 2010, a much more historically typical year, Matt Ryan contributed 4.75 wins and elite quarterbacks contributed about 3.75 wins over the year, or Ryan led the average QB by 3.5 wins and elite QBs beat out average QBs by 2.5.
If this performance was consistent, Donovan McNabb would have lost us 3.2 games vs. an average quarterback. He is worse this year than elite or MVP quarterbacks are good in most years.
His front-level stats are fine. Completion percentage and yards per attempt weren’t good, but they weren’t obscene by any means. He protects the ball from turnovers and didn’t seem to perform badly given his role – at first glance (if that glance wasn’t while he was playing). If you dig a little deeper on paper or happen to watch the games, you can see that McNabb was simply abysmal. Do I think there are worse QBs playing this year? Oh yes. John Beck, Tim Tebow, and Kerry Collins were all worse in nearly every measurable way. But that might also not be fair. Kerry Collins technically retired, and Tebow’s a running back. Given that he could perform worse, and Kevin Kolb technically did perform worse, I won’t give McNabb the worst grade, even though these are curved towards expectation.
Grade: D-
Seriously Kolb, get it together.
QB: Joe Webb – Misfit Wunderkind. Declared in the draft as a QB, but drafted to fulfill a WR role, Joe Webb hasn’t had a solid place on the team. Having played designed runs, returned kicks, and lining up in the slot, the Vikings are struggling to find a way to make this playmaker make plays.
This is a surprisingly easy write-up, considering that we haven’t seen him on the field as a QB yet. I’m just going to compare Joe Webb’s first 180 snaps to Christian Ponder’s first 150. That’s about a half a game difference. These happened in a different league year, yes, and with the addition of receivers like Sidney Rice, but it is certainly food for thought. The biggest difference here is the change in offensive coordinators. Both have been performing in "lost seasons" and both want to prove that they are franchise QBs. Each of them suffer the same WPA penalty of entering a game that’s already lost, so I won’t adjust for that.
It’s easy to start with something that both QBs are lauded for – extending plays and their athleticism. How good has Webb been in avoiding sacks? Joe Webb had better pass protection (13th worst in the league in pressures allowed… weird, I know) than Christian Ponder, but still accumulated 8 sacks, to be sacked 7.1% of the time he dropped back. Ponder has been sacked 6.7% with the 6th worst offensive line in pressures allowed. His yards lost per sack are below league average as well – 6 yards per sack.
Again, some context. The second lowest yards lost per sack this year is 3.8 and the next step up is 5 (which is still impressive and quite a bit lower than typical). It’s not that Joe Webb’s sacks are bad, it’s that Ponder’s are remarkably good (relatively speaking) Joe Webb holds on to the ball a little bit too long, especially compared to Ponder, but it doesn’t hurt him as much as it does most QBs in the league. That said, Joe Webb only threw the ball away once. This speaks to his awareness, I think – he’ll find a way out when there’s pressure, but he is merely average at detecting it.
Evaluating his performance by the metrics above, one can see that Joe Webb was a much more accurate passer (by 3%) than Christian Ponder was in his first 150 snaps, to match the 2010 league average at 61%. His TD% is unsurprisingly low at -4% compared to league average, if you include all touchdown rushes and run attempts (for all QBs). His YPA is -1.68 from league average, which is condemningly bad. He did make more than a couple plays with his feet, though – excitingly enough for 6.67 yards. How does he compare if you adjust his yards/completion for runs, run yards, dropped passes, throwaways, interceptions, etc.? Well, the league average for all of that in 2010 was 5.49. Christian Ponder’s was 6.46 (League average in 2011 is significantly higher in 2010, but I do not have all QB run data entered in at the moment – it seems that there are fewer QB runs this year per game, too – but not by much) for what probably beats league average by probably a good 1.1 yards.
Joe Webb’s was 3.8. The difference here is stark – I am willing to concede the argument that Musgrave’s offense was better than Bevell’s both in terms of playing to QB strengths and in terms of doing more to win, but being below league average by 1.1 yards is not good. I’m willing to bet that if Joe Webb had first team reps, and a solid offseason, and an offensive playbook tailored to his strengths (the long ball, sneaks, designed runs, etc.) he could be better than league average, but to me there’s no question that Christian Ponder is the better quarterback, especially in this offense.
Joe Webb has a pretty good completion percentage, and when factoring dropped passes, ranks at exactly league average, which is certainly impressive for someone who has had very few first team reps, was drafted to fulfill a WR role and was a 3rd string QB. Does this mean he should continue being a QB? Not necessarily, but I think having Joe Webb as a backup would be pretty fantastic. He’s already a better QB than some starters in the league, and I think the only backup QB that I can think of that is better than him is Vince Young. As a developmental QB, we could do far, far worse.
His strengths are accuracy, particularly on the long ball as well as his athleticism. His biggest weakness is his peripheral field awareness. He’s 12 for 30 on 3rd down conversions, but has more 1st downs per snap than Ponder, who is not as good on 1st and 2nd down as we’d like. Joe Webb converted 37.6% (That’s insane. Only 5 QBs – Rivers, Schaub, Rodgers, Brady, and Roethlisberger – were higher) of his snaps into first downs, Ponder - 31%. Does that mean we have Joe Webb play the first two downs and then sub Ponder in on 3rd down and in the Red Zone? Well, no that’s not how offenses work. But I think if Joe Webb knew when to run and where his receivers need to be to convert, he would become an incredible quarterback. His weaknesses are coachable and his strengths are not (it is extremely unlikely for QBs to shift their completion percentage much year-by-year).
He is hit or miss. Either his plays do exactly what they need to (high conversion percentage) or the do exactly what you don’t want them to do – and they’ll do the second more than the first (low AYPAA).
Who should start? Christian Ponder. Is Joe Webb a QB? Absolutely. Just give him time, because he can be coached to do what can be coached and he already knows how to do what can’t be coached.
Grade: C+
Addendum: Would Webb make a good WR? I don't know. He has the biggest hands of his draft class and an extraordinary vert. His 40 speed is great, but I don't know how long it takes to coach discipline on routes. Also, I'm of the firm belief that WRs should block, especially if we're going to run reverses, sweeps, and screens (we are) - can he do that? Probably not nearly as well as the other WRs we have on our roster.
EDIT: Ponder's 1st Down % has been edited - it didn't seem right, so I went through the play-by-play. Almost all of his negative 1st Down % comes from 20 plays run in Chicago, where he converted 25% of his plays. In games he's started, his 1st down% is extremely impressive - 44.7%. Quite possibly the best in the league. This certainly changes the discussion and gives us credibility to the idea that Ponder knows how to move the chains. Just... less often on 1st and 2nd down - his completion percentage on those downs is 39.5% and his completion percentage on 3rd down is an astonishing 70%, which drives his 1st %. Joe Webb's completion percentage on 1st downs is over 67%, and he gains 6.1 yards per carry on 1st down. I think the nature of the discussion stays the same - improvement on 1st and 2nd downs, especially versus his backup, but the numbers defining it are different.
Incidentally, I said I would say more about Aaron Rodgers here. Well, looking at these numbers really puts Aaron Rodgers into perspective – he has the highest completion percentage and highest yards per completion of any quarterback. He has the third lowest interception percentage, a better than average sack percentage and an average yards per sack. He leads the league in touchdown percentage. This means that in the normally clustered adjusted yards per adjusted attempt category, Aaron Rodgers leads the league by light years. He beats the second placed quarterback by 1.8 AYPAA in a year when beating just the average by that much would normally be impressive. He beats league average by 3.5 yards for a total of 9.26. To put that in context, Philip Rivers led the league last year with an AYPAA of 8.18, beating the league average by 1.52. In 2009, Philip Rivers was leading the league by beating the average by 1.9. It’s not that this is a career year or a HoF year for Aaron Rodgers. It is an historic year.
Next up is Wide Receivers. I won't get into Burton or Arceneaux, but I want to see if I can crack the code on Harvin, Aromashodu, Berrian, Camarillo, and Jenkins. Yes, I know Berrian's not on the team any more and I am as happy as you are about that.
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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HA!
FIRST! I’ll read the article now. Looks to be a good one.
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
Wow, excellent.
I love an article that is backed up with, you know, actual facts and statistics. Rec’d!
SKOL Vikings!
I should add
Or at least add once more – Webb and Ponder have so few snaps that evaluation at this point is laughable if taken too seriously. We see snapshots that don’t give us anywhere near the full picture.
Both have a big opportunity – or risk – to regress to the mean; this would mean that Webb would look better overall and Ponder worse overall.
Given what we saw, I’d still say it’s likely that Webb ends up being a better QB. But, if we are limited to our 150-180 snap observation, Ponder has definitively (as much as can be at this point) beat out Webb.
This is an outstanding article!
We all know how well Ponder has been producing on third down, and I’m thinking the majority of them are 3rd and 10 to 3rd and 8 type passes. That is a tough position for a rookie QB to maintain. If we can shore up this O-line, perhaps we can improve on 1st and 2nd downs, to make it a little easier on the kid. That expands the possibilities on that third down play call as well. Any way your article made me lol on a few occasions, obviously took some research, and it is true about the sample size. Still, I think it gives us hope for the future, and frankly I feel a little bit bad for Webb as he could probably go to Seattle for example and do better that what they’re working with there. Look forward to your WR assessment. (Nice that you gave McNabb a D- – no need in being mean! :p)
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
Ponder's been money on those 8-10 yard slants on third-down. His accuracy in the 7-15 yard range is great.
by CanadianViking on Oct 31, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Very true
I’m just saying that 3rd and long is a very tough position to be in drive after drive, for a rookie or a veteran!
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
Absolutely
I definitely want to put the concern about the sustainability of his 3rd down production – how long can it last with a poor O-Line and a poor completion percentage? It probably isn’t extremely fluky and has a little to do with playcalling, but being in fewer 3rd down situations is much better.
I don’t know how I feel about a QB controlling downs like a batter controls the strike zone – no need to wait it out, sacrifice a yard or two and get the completion!
If he keeps these numbers the same (and I can only hope he improves), one of the net effects will be an incidentally poor Red Zone performance – and he could get the label of a QB that can drive down the field but not finish, fairly or unfairly. But if he shores up some of these problems or if the playcalling tilts more in his favor, he will end up being quite good.
Interesting read. Definitely worth a Rec!
Small sample size aside, I think your analysis of the stats points out some encouraging things for both our young QBs.
To my eye, one of the things that I like most about Ponder is that he’s really good at minimizing losses. He throws the ball away instead of taking a sack like a vet and the sacks he does take are for minimal losses as your stats show. He’s looking good so far and the areas I’d like to see him improve on are completion %, deep-ball accuracy, and I think his play-action fakes need to be sold better. All in all I’ve been quite impressed, especially since I wasn’t very high on him pre-draft or in the pre-season.
The Webb stats were encouraging as well, even though they were from last year with different circumstances and team dynamics. Completion %, 1st and 2nd down success, and deep ball accuracy were all things I liked. The so-so sack yardage stats are probably due to him holding the ball too long. This doesn’t bother me that much as I think it’s a necessary evil that comes with his rushing ability. Again, fairly impressive for a young guy and areas he needs to work on are being more decisive on third-down and improving his intermediate accuracy.
Pretty happy having both these guys at QB and if we could somehow combine them they’d be the perfect QB, as they seem to both have strengths where the other has weakness. Funny how that works out and probably explains a lot of the debate about these guys at QB.
Another Note:
Had to change some of the stats because they didn’t feel right – had to look them over again. Ponder has a higher 1st down , but the discussion hasn’t changed – he’s still 39.5 on 1st and 2nd down. That needs to go up.
wow
Good article man, confirmed the “it” factor that I think both Ponder and Webb have with actual statistics.
I enjoyed reading this.
I confess that I struggle to follow some of the stats and their implications, but it was an interesting perspective and very well written. One of the struggles I have is the relative big impact on results that one play can have on the stats. For example, yesterday Peterson caught a short dump off pass. After catching it, he ran it in for a 19 yard TD. 99 times out of 100, a dump off pass is just a dump off pass. That time it was a TD. In time, those anomolies will work themselves out of the stats.
Regarding Ponder, I thought he improved quite a bit on Sunday from the previous week and his outings prior to that. I was most pleased to see his completion percentage get up to a NFL quarterback level. Against Green Bay, Ponder generally didn’t look good to me. However, and this is a big exception, I thought he looked very calm and collected when put in pressure situations. I also noticed that he did very well with slant routes and when throwing on the run. While everything else pretty much looked like garbage IMO, he showed enough to make me think that there was enough good stuff that I was optimistic he would improve.
On Sunday he did improve, and in the area that I was most concerned that he improve. He got his completion percentage way up (from low 40s and mid 60s). I don’t think it’s possible for a QB to be stinky on first and second downs while being very good on 3rd downs. I think that’s the sort of thing that won’t be sustainable, so I was really pleased to see the improvement. The other improvement I saw was that he avoided interceptions. Against Green Bay he could have had 5 interceptions and maybe more. Against Carolina it was good to see him dramatically improve in that regard.
I remain a little concerned about Ponder’s difficulty in making tight throws deep down the field, and I hope he’ll get that figured out in time. That said, I’m relatively pleased with his performance over the past two games. There are still lots of areas of improvement, but lots of reason for optimism.
I think Ponder’s B+ is a bit high. I’d give him a B- average for the past two games. The Green Bay game was not a good performance (2 INTs and a 40% completion percentage). Yesterday’s game was better, and at that pace of improvement, I expect he’ll be grading out at an A+ by week 12. :-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
B
I still think Ponder’s INTs against GB were due in large part to being accustomed to practicing against a Tampa-2 secondary, and having no experience at all with real man-coverage in the NFL, especially against a corner who could hold some serious acceleration in reserve. Woodson just set the rook up by hanging back, but Ponder’s catching on.
I’m glad to see him able to compensate for not being able to throw it on a clothesline, but until we have a real burner at the WR position that he can lead with a rainbow, I suspect he’ll continue to have issues with the long ball, and we’ll see plenty of ‘fights’ over it at the receiving end.
He’s got all the right tools, though, and it’s still improving. Having a couple weeks to digest what he’s experienced, and more practice with the 1st squad, should help too.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
I was debating between a B and a B+
I know that as I wrote more, I was getting more esoteric with the stats. In fact, that’s what I’m struggling with right now – my research is pointing me towards the conclusion that quarterbacks have a higher impact on “catch rates” for receivers than I originally thought – even if you don’t strip out “drops” or “catchable/uncatchable” balls! You’re correct that particularly high-impact or low-impact plays have a huge effect on the numbers with such a low sample size, but I have what I have. What I was really looking for was someone who had figured out Yards After the Catch on a game-by-game basis, so I could figure out how many “air yards” Ponder had, and if we saw a measurable effect on hitting receivers in stride (I think we will, if I find it – I might add it to my receivers article).
I think his game against Green Bay “looked” good. That is, outside the numbers, I appreciated what I saw in the heat of the moment. To me, if we had a franchise QB for several years have that game against GB, I’d be incensed, regardless of how good that team is. But as his first start, yea – I’ll take it. Remember, Peyton Manning (the 2011 class Valedictorian) had 3-13 record as a rookie. Especially because my frame of reference has been McNabb.
I agree that it is probably not consistently true for QBs to be bad on the first two downs and stellar on the 3rd down – I don’t generally believe in repeatable “clutch play,” for example. I think that QBs will generally perform to their level on most downs anyway. In fact, I would think that top-level QBs perform worse on 3rd downs, because most passing 3rd downs are situations where defenses can expect the pass. To wit, the top 5 in the NFL in passing on 3rd down conversions are Philip Rivers (maybe not after tonight…), Drew Brees, Christian Ponder, Ben Roethlisberger, and Aaron Rodgers. They are 56.5, 56.3, 55.6, 53.8, and 53.2 (the difference here from above is that Ponder has been the QB while our offense has converted 53% of 3rd downs, but he himself has passed to convert for 55.6% of his pass attempts). Their overall completion percentage? 64.7 (-8.2% on 3rd downs), 70.6% (-14.3%), 51.9% (+3.7%), 64.4% (-10.6%), and 71.5% (-18.3%). Across the board, QBs are generally less accurate on 3rd down (by an order of 8-18%, apparently), and I expect we’ll see some regression in the coming weeks towards the less-than-mean one usually sees. I do think keeping up your 3rd down conversion percentage against the rest of the league is at least mildly repeatable or somewhat consistent – it has to do with awareness and patience, but not something we can bank on day-in, day-out.
The reason that I gave him a B+ is that I’m curving for someone who has taken 1st team snaps for two practice weeks and has started 2 games. I think completion percentage is very important, but what’s most important is how many yards you get per attempt. If he continues this performance (avg yards per attempt, low completion percentage), he’ll be a quarterback with a high variability in play and less consistency and that’s not something I want to see. However, generally speaking, he will move the ball down the field and that’s something that not many rookie QBs have. In Tom Brady’s first 4 games, he went 2-2 (replacing Bledsoe in Game 1) and had a completion percentage of 56.7% and his Adjusted Yards Per Attempt was 5.68. No one could really say “he knows how to move the ball” and had 0 touchdowns during that stretch. Peyton Manning’s first three starts were similarly lackluster. Mark Sanchez was 56% in his first three starts, and he was supposed to be a rookie phenom. So, given that it’s his first three games/two starts, I’m grading him easy. This performance 6 weeks down the road is not acceptable.
Great response.
Grades are subjective, so I won’t get too worried about the B+ vs. B vs. B-, etc. (I was grading on the rookie curve too – a Green Bay performance from a 5 year QB would have been embarrassing).
I have one question about Webb (aside from the difference in the B+ to C+ grade). When you said the he enjoyed better pass protection, what were you referring to? Was it based on the Vikings O-line last season or specifically the guys on the line during Webb’s two games as a starter? I recall McKinnie, DeGeare, Sullivan, Cook and Loadholt being pretty awful for Webb, and the running game suffered too as a result. (As an aside, it’s nice to see Ponder getting good run support against Green Bay and in the 2nd half of the Carolina game).
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Sure
I don’t think that offensive line was very stellar either, and I’ll admit I didn’t look at O Line grades game by game when making that point. However, you have to consider how absolutely abysmal our offensive line is this year. They’ve given up the 6th most QB pressures in the league and have been doing it faster than many other O Lines. PFF grades them as 19th in the league and Football Outsiders grade them as 28th in pass protection.
Last year, they were bad, not embarrassing. They gave up the 23rd most pressures, and were ranked betterin both systems in 2010 (13th and 20th, respectively). I like PFF’s grades for individuals, but not as much for units, and I’m more inclined to agree with FO’s methodology on our offensive line play because they adjust for opponent, formations, and blame offensive lines (rightly so) for throwaways as well as sacks. It also fits what I see with my eyes, which is always a good test. We generally held on to the ball longer last year as well, which skews against our offensive line’s performance in 2010. Favre and Webb love waiting to see a play develop. When you have the offensive line that New Orleans or Oakland has this year, that’s fine. Not so much with ours.
But neither offensive lines could reasonably be put up for some sort of award or nomination, that’s for sure. Perhaps Packer fans could award them for ending Favre’s career?
Thanks.
I think that explains it a bit to me. One of the things I’ve been excited about for Ponder is the fact that the addition of Berger to the line in place of Sullivan actually improved the performance of the line for both the passing and running game. In some sense, while the line continues to struggle at the ends, it appears to have been shored up in the middle with Berger playing in place of Sullivan against Green Bay (and part of the Chicago game). I don’t know how long Herrera will be out, but I think Ponder would benefit from a middle of the line looking like Hutchinson, Berger and Herrera. Kleinsasser could continue to play a role of protection on the edges or at fullback. I think this bodes well for Ponder. Unlike last year in which the end of the season was a complete disaster for the O-line (even worse than they played during the season), I think this year’s bad O-line gets better with the addition of Berger at center.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
we need a "is berger > sully" vote. just for giggles.
i vote yes!
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I didn't see sully make any major mistakes on Sunday
Whereas I saw Berger make at least three in the second half against Chicago. He’s looked better after that though.
maybe kcskol will do a sully vs. berger comparison in his weekly write up.
hint, hint….nudge, nudge…wink, wink.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I'm starting to think about doing my own
But I already deleted the game off my DVR.
Next week I might try to actually keep some sort of tabulation. Not sure what though.
That said, my gut tells me Berger is better than Herrara, whom I’ve never been impressed with.
that would be cool if you did. it would make a good read.
i’ll bet you would do a great job.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Perhaps surprisingly, I actually think Herrera's fine.
Sullivan is the weak link in the middle IMO. And our bookends aren’t so hot either.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I think I would be repeating myself...
…and if I find that boring and tiresome, I can only imagine how the reader would feel about it.
I wrote about Sullivan starting with the Chargers game review and continued to mention his poor performance through the early games. I took some time to mention Berger during his brief moment in the spotlight against Kansas City and then against Chicago. After that I stopped the reviews. However, I haven’t seen anything since then to suggest that Berger isn’t an improvement over Sullivan.
Berger’s one start at center became the first really big day that AP had on the ground. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. AP had 50 more yards than his prior best this season, and his average gain per carry was over 7 yards (an improvement of over 3 yard per carry over his prior best game this season). What Berger can do that Sullivan can’t, is move his guy off the line without help which frees up the guards to go hunting for other defenders. His pass protection is generally better too IMO.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
i was thinking more like a quick play analysis for each of them...
like:
sully got beat 6 times in pass protection resulting in 4 qb pressures and 2 sacks.
berger got beat 3 times in pass protection resulting in 3 qb pressures no sacks.
sully got manhandled on 5 running plays, but did well to push his guy…
berger sat on a defender’s face and farted, but wasn’t flagged…
something like that.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I'd
really love to see an other game analysis that you did to start up again. they were real informative about the play of each individual, and a great read.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Nov 2, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Very kind of you.
I’ll keep that in mind. Thank you.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Do it!
I’d vote “yes” too.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
This is it man
Berger might be better in the end. Sully has made to many mistakes to keep his job. We need to go behind the average and work toward the excellent anything else it just settling for mediocrity.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Speaking of your evaluations ...
when are we going to see an other game film breakdown. loved those.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Nov 1, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks.
I thought I’d bring it to a close after 6 of them. The things I saw and thought were repeating themselves somewhat after 4 weeks and even more so by the end of 6. It struck me that there were diminishing returns in continuing to write them up.
Thanks for the kudos though.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
but we have a new QB now
who’s play is compleatly new to the team. for those parts that are repetative from the previous games, could just do a brief statement along the lines of ‘x player made same mistakes as in previous games’ or something along those lines.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Nov 2, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
I will say this
I would like to see some of you game break downs now that Ponder is sitting behind center. I don’t ask for much man, but now I’ve asked twice for you to do this. Honestly, you have the best game day break downs on this site.. I would hate to have to beg….
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Arif, fantastic analysis
I love the way you look at the numbers
BTW are you an actuary?
"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve."
George Bernard Shaw
"In those days the best painkiller was ice; it wasn't addictive and it was particularly effective if you poured some whiskey over it."
George Burns
Follow @justanothervike
by just another viking on Oct 31, 2011 10:59 PM CDT reply actions
Thank you
Surprised to be on the front page!
I am not, but I’ve been grounded in research all of my life and have been convinced that the right numbers will tell you the story you can see with your eyes (or should see). I have coached high school debate for several years and also am a director of a political non-profit — as far from a “numbers guy” as you could be! But my dad is an engineer and my mom is a computer scientist, so I’ve come to trust both my instinct and what can be measured (but if something doesn’t feel right, double-check it. That’s why I had to go back and change Ponder’s numbers).
You might have missed your calling
But none the less Great rite up
"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve."
George Bernard Shaw
"In those days the best painkiller was ice; it wasn't addictive and it was particularly effective if you poured some whiskey over it."
George Burns
Follow @justanothervike
by just another viking on Nov 1, 2011 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Can't Wait To See The Running Back Piece..............
but I think your analysis is spot on here for Ponder at QB. What the aggregate numbers do not factor in is the quality of the team surrounding the QB…………particularly the offensive line. Ponder is mostly scrambling for his life which leads to throwaways which really hurt his completion percentage. This is not an accuracy issue. It is a protection issue. To Ponder’s credit, he is avoiding major sack losses and often turning problems into gains. The guy has plenty of arm strength and accuracy. He has made a huge difference for the Vikings……….in the air and also providing some air cover for an emerging ground game. Honestly, I find it really hard to expect anything more out of him given what he has to deal with.
That one will be fun, for sure
I’ve seen a lot of research out there that indicates that sack percentage is in many ways under QB control, to a degree. A torrid offensive line plays a big role, but surprisingly not the biggest role. QBs tend to have similar sack numbers across teams (Unless they are Jay Cutler – I suppose extremely awful offensive lines play a huge role). Injuries to an offensive line, however, play a huge role (see Mark Sanchez’s game without Nick Mangold). My sense is that QBs adjust to the amount of time their line gives them unless something happens to change that. Throwaways are good plays, so I needed to find a way to either reward or at least not penalize Ponder for making those plays, and his completion percentage still comes up short compared to others. We do know, however, that he knows how to control his pocket – just comparing his and McNabb’s sack numbers is extremely revealing.
I absolutely agree that Ponder is making something out of what many people thought was a bit of nothing. Certainly to his credit. If I can, I might find the time to see if Pressures Given Up (almost completely controlled by O-Line play) is correlated over time with completion percentage. I would need a really large data set first, though.
I called third down Ponder down in the game thread yesterday!!
I also read those impressive statistics you posted about Ponder having 12 of 13 completions going for first downs or touchdowns and 14 of 18 for first downs/touchdowns on the NFL article recap, and I love that you threw those in here! You obviously did your statistical research.
This is a really great article, Arif. Great stuff! Can’t wait to read more of it in the future!
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
SKOL VIKINGS!
I would also like to add a non statical positive for Ponder,
which is the poise he has shown when watching him play the game, interview, etc. I’m terrifically happy that we have two quarterbacks in Webb and Ponder (sometimes McNabb even) that can keep their poise and cool. This is just a side note; I still absolutely love the intricate statical analysis of the QB’s.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
SKOL VIKINGS!
Agreed.
In-game and off-the-field poise for both of them have been excellent. Something that speaks to leadership on the field, and excellence off of it. I want to see the NFLs “Sound Off” or “Sound FX” or whatever it’s called where they let you listen in on the wired up mics on the field. It was great for Favre’s ‘09 season and fantastic for Matt Stafford’s come from behind win with a shoulder injury. Is Ponder the same type of field general? I certainly think so.
McNabb, I think, has poise but not cool off the field. He doesn’t get rattled, but he does get snarky. I don’t like that he still states publicly that he should be the starter (I don’t mind that he thinks it – every competitor does) or that he makes snarky comments about “mechanics issues” as if they weren’t real.
One concern
My one concern with Ponder is that I have not seen him hook up to WR long much. Of course he really ony has Harvin to work with, but some of his long passes have been out of bounds and not on the mark. The rest is unbelievable.
What else is unreal is to believe that suddenly he gained this level abiltiy. How much of this could have been ready in game 1,2,or 3 of the season?
LF wiated too long to save our season, like our reps may take too long to save our team.
FLEE FLICKER WITH AP - Harvin, or someone would be WIDE OPEN on the same side that AP went. 4 TIMES A GAME = 3 TD’S
More screens to AP
QUESTION -- not counting Allen how many interceptions does our D have in 8 games?
That's fair
I think it’s important to stretch the defense, and accurate long throws are a big part of that. Force the safeties to shade up and your slants will be that much more effective. His long throw accuracy is OK at best, and I don’t know how much can be done by him or by coaching staff to improve it. In this specific case, I think it’s up to his offensive line to allow him time to set his feet.
The problem with the Flea Flicker is that it is an extremely slow developing play. The speed of the NFL game doesn’t typically allow for plays to develop that slowly, especially because most slow developing plays (reverses) either have linemen pull or don’t force them to pull up to prevent the rarely-called linemen-down-field penalty. That is, the linemen would have to fake a run block, but not move too far forward to both remain legal and to be effective pass-protectors. As soon as they let up, the linebackers and defensive ends know that the play is a pass and run through the busted pass protection. Have you seen Suh or Matthews run through unblocked? Fast.
I agree that more screens to AP would be fantastic. They did well, and probably will continue to do well.
Minnesota has 6 interceptions. Jared Allen has one and Asher Allen has 1. So without one of them, we have 5. Without either of them, we have 4. We seem to be a little bit below league average, which is probably between 7 and 8.
Good job
I will say that I am not a big fan of all these advanced statistics. I guess I just get bored and then confused and probably more of the latter. :)
All I know is what I see and Ponder is doing well. I think the 3rd down stats are a bit inflated considering that AP took a shovel pass for 22 yards and Percy took one pass and made a great run dragging the defender a bit to pick up the first down. I mean those plays were really AP & Harvin.
I do like his passes to Rudolph, Shiancoe, & Harvin (that was fumbled) though. Those were very nice. But defenses will key on this going forward though.
I need to see Ponder complete some deeper passes with some velocity and not the lollipop long throws that may or may not connect. The WRs need to be more involved. I do not think it is Ponder’s fault about the WRs though. It appears that the reason Aromasodu did not play earlier is because he seems to have trouble grasping either the offense or what a defense is about to do. This is important as the one play he ran what looked to be his normal pattern and Ponder was expecting an out. It could be that DAs troubles are all upstairs. If he can get it together he could be a decent speed type guy IMO. He has the size and speed. He fights for the ball. So what gives?
Anyway, I digress. I am looking for more deeper passes from Ponder. But he needs a pocket that he can step into to make these throws ideally. And of course we need to see more games before we really can draw any conclusions. I would like to see these stats after about 6 to 8 games. 2 games is not enough.
I put no stock in Webb’s stats as last year was a complete circus for the whole team with games moved and delayed and the coach fired, etc. I do agree that he should stay a QB and be developed there. I would rather have him as a backup than quite a few other scrubs that are being run out there by other teams.
Good job though. I look forward to the updated stats a few weeks from now. I expect it will not change much though. I am hoping that the WRs (DA specifically) will get on the same page with Ponder.
I also think it is worth noting that Ponder has played with Berger in the lineup more. Berger appears to be doing a better job than his predecessors.
Great analysis Arif!
Thanks for including Yards per Pass Attempt in your analysis. I just learned earlier this season how important this stat is. Winning this stat has about an 85% positive correlation with a team winning a game and even though it’s a team stat, the QB play is by far the most important component. This simple stat is much better than QB rating. If you look at the rating Mcnabb was middle of the pack or slightly better but in YPA he was almost dead last and Rodgers is off the charts. This is where Ponder is already making a big difference. He is much better than Mcnabb already in this stat. I’ve gotten to the point where the typical halftime stats – time of possession, turnovers, and yards bore me. Just give me the YPA stats and I can see who’s going to win.
Keep up the great work!!!
by Torstein on Nov 1, 2011 9:14 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Thank you
And I have complete sympathy for that feeling, incidentally. I will say that most advanced stats are useless for college ball anyway, so what should you care ;)
His 3rd down stats certainly are inflated by good supporting cast play, but you also have to ask – would McNabb have the presence of mind to give to Harvin and AP in that situation? Maybe, the shovel pass looked like a designed play, so perhaps. It was also a risky move, so maybe he would have audibled out of it. Either way, significantly more credit to AP and Harvin on those plays, because you shouldn’t get too much credit for doing what you’re supposed to do, just blame if you don’t.
If defenses don’t key in on Ponder to Shiancoe, then I have no faith in the genius of any defensive coordinator. Percy is interesting, and I think I can explain why when I post this WR article (taking a long time to write… my job keeps getting in the way).
If that’s the reason DA is seeing fewer snaps (he has about 100 snaps where he’s run a route over 8 games) then it’s a good one. He’s been good when he shows good route discipline (a well executed stutter I think was grounds for a great play, but he was overthrown – and not too far ahead on the field, but rather out-of-bounds) and I haven’t been able to see film to know what happens when he runs bad routes (or how often he runs them). When he makes the catch, he’s electrifying, so I agree – what gives? Probably mental – knowledge of the offense and discipline.
I want deeper passes from Ponder as well. Some of that is him – he’s not as accurate on the deep ball, and some of that is on the offensive line – it’s hard to throw the deep ball when you don’t have time to set. It might be more the offensive line than him as of right now, but we can wait and see.
I agree and disagree. The reason I don’t believe in “suck for luck” is because players and coaches play to win and the front office has very little control over that. Similarly, players and coaches would always rather go 7-9 than 6-10. Coach transitions are reasonably tough and a good reason to be suspicious of the stats, but in this case I think they said what I saw. Webb is an accurate passer with a cannon for an arm who holds on to the ball too long, perhaps trusting his athleticism to bail him out.
I like Berger, but I think he’s a better road grader than pass blocker, and we seem to be giving him the credit for both. Berger has played a quarter or less of pass blocking snaps than Sully and has allowed 1/4 of the QB pressures. To be fair, none of them are sacks like Sully’s and that may be a question of WHEN he gives up the pressure To be fair, Sully is significantly better at run blocking as well, and is comparatively worse when it comes to pass blocking, but we need to see more from Berger as a center before we make that comparison. Generally, as a Center, I’d keep Sully. As a Guard, he’s better than Fusco and Herrerra when it comes to both pass blocking and running, so Ponder might be getting a bit of credit for that unfairly.
I personally fo not believe any team is trying to "suck" for Luck
I just think those teams truly do “suck”.
I have hope for Ponder and like the stats you have compiled. There is no disputing the validity or early conclusions. All point towards the positive. As an aside, he was doing the same thing at Florida State as well. So it looks to not be an aberration.
Still, the sample size is too small for either Ponder or Webb to be a final determination as you stated.
I am looking forward to seeing him progress throughout the year and to seeing Aromashodu progress as well. I believe DA will indeed thus making WR NOT a priority in the next draft.
Denver
is clearly trying to “suck for Luck” they pulled their best QB for arguably their worst QB (in part to showcase to the fans how much they need a diff QB) then before he gets to start they trade away their best WR. just that it is unlikely that they will win that race.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Nov 1, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
brady quinn must be so pissed.
interesting theory. i wonder what elway really thinks. there is that stanford connection.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Denver is just bad
and Kyle Orton was not leading them to wins and that is the reason he was pulled
They put in Tebow to see what he can do and what they had in him. They know what they have in Orton.
Trading Lloyd was smart. He is going to be a free agent at the end of the year and they decided they were not going to bid for his services. They have Decker and Demaryius Thomas and Royal. Not too bad a group if they can stay healthy. They are smart to get a pick for Lloyd which probably will end up being a 5th.
Too bad the Vikings could not try that with Berrian.
playing
Tebow and trading their #1 WR is plain tanking. the FO and Coach have said all offseason that Orton was the better QB. the team is tanking for Luck Tebow is not going to get the team any more wins then Orton would (probably less) and trading your best WR in season for a late round pick is tanking
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Nov 2, 2011 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
I personally think Miami would be more in this than Denver
Denver is a tool of the audience,. Miami wants another Marino bad.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
He was doing the same thing at Florida State as well. So it looks to not be an aberration.
So correct, Ponder has always thrived on third downs and in the redzone. Of his 45 third down pass completions in 2010 (regular season only, though he didn’t really play vs VT or S.Car..), 41 resulted in first downs or touchdowns. FSU led the ACC in third down conversions in 2010… In the red zone, Ponder is 29 of 47 for 234 yards and 16 touchdowns with just one interception. Stats from CBS Sports
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 1, 2011 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you'll see a change in Ponders completion percentage
a 20 point jump is pretty huge, I think he’ll land closer to the 60% than the 40% when it all comes out in the wash. personally I have a hard time trusting stats, they say a lot it’s just hard to truly understand what they are saying, and it’s very easy to push them to mean what you want them too.
Just look at big pharma.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Talk about a can of worms
Just look at big pharma.
I agree 100%, but oof, nice shot.
I hope I don’t have an agenda. :(
I have worked for a couple of pharma companies and needless to say the only thing I use is aspirin
Nothing against you at all or your research. Just one of my hot topics :D
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
When Arif types, you read. And you'll like it, too!!
Freakin great stuff Arif. When can we expect the WR’s installment?
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 1, 2011 12:45 PM CDT reply actions
I think it's a rip off
when he gets more rec in one article than I do in 15 fan posts combined. That’s just showing off!
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
Counting rec’s are we? It’s not about the rec’age, it’s about the wreckage ; )
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 1, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Hahahaha
I secretly have 10 accounts just for rec’ing my own posts. ;)
But honestly, I’ve only written 4 or 5 fanposts, so you probably have more total… wreckage.
Make up a post about Dalllas being dicks when you meet them in the play offs
You’ll get more rec’s trust me… :)
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Thanks!
I’ll be posting it later tonight, around midnight or later. Have to work around the edges for my real, paying work. Sigh.
I only just got done with my segment on Percy Harvin. He is hard to fully appreciate.
Thanks for the analysis
Crazy small sample sizes on Ponder to this point, obviously, but if he can continue to make these clutch throws to extend drives, can we start calling him “3DC” – for 3rd down conversion?
Only Argument
Is that (Oof) should come before (ugh). No, seriously, outstanding writeup… can’t say I read it completely, but you did an excellent job. And, like Packer Pete said above, you should totally consider coming over to ACME and writing us a couple articles.. :-)
Jay Cutler, first NFL quarterback to beat a playoff team with a losing record.
For you guys trying to come over here and recruit Arif
I can tell you as his agent (he doesn’t know about this yet cause I just thought of it) that this is egregious, deplorable, reprehensible, lamentable,odious, homologous, vile, and communist, and a grievance WILL be filed with the NFL, the CIA, the IRA, the Gaelic Players Association, Rod Stewart, and PETA, and insist that you cease or desist, or when I sober up, there’s gonna be worse prices to pay!
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
Is there no link to the methodology behind the statistical info?
With such a limited sample of play, I go with the eye test.
Almost all of it is available on free statistics databases
I just did a bunch of compiling and dividing. Check ESPN.com, pro-football-reference.com, profootballfocus.com, NFL.com, and advancednflstats.com.
The only things not in those databases are behind PFF’s proprietary database, and that’s just about snap count, throwaways, and spikes. I think if I threw a deep ball statistic in there, I got it from that database, too, but you can find that on free databases as well, categorized as “+20” in stat lines. Sometimes I just went into the NFL play-by-play to grab stats I couldn’t find easily.
If you want to see more about the usefulness of various “Yards Per Attempt” and a discussion of Win Probability, click on those links. Pro-football-reference has a lot of articles about the usefulness of measuring quarterbacks by yards per attempt or adjusting yards per attempt to include sacks, interceptions, etc.
Is there any specific statistic or measure you had questions about? I’d be more than happy to answer it and link you to serious methodological rigor somewhere else on the internet.

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