Arden Hills Stadium In Big Trouble...Expect Vikings To Be Forced Into A 'Take It Or Leave It' Deal With Minneapolis
by Ted Glover on Nov 1, 2011 10:28 PM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings Stadium
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PrintSooooooooo.....let's recap:
The Minnesota Vikings have wanted a new stadium for over 10 years, and they wanted the state to pay for part of it. After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the state of Minnesota said they needed to do two things, and the state would pay up to $300 million towards a new facility:
1) Find a local partner that has a way to finance approximately one third of the cost
2) Get a location
The Vikings did that. They partnered with Ramsey County, who proposed a 1/2 cent sales tax to raise their portion, the Vikings will contribute $400 million, and the state would kick in their $300 million. Let's play ball in Arden Hills!
Woo!
Boys and girls, I think we've officially entered what we call the 'Crisis Stage'.
Why?
Because Mark Dayton, Kurt Zellers, and Amy Koch just gave the Vikings the finger earlier today.
If there has been one roadblock put up to stop the Vikings from getting this Arden Hills stadium, there have been a dozen. I won't detail them here, but there has been strident opposition since the day the Vikings announced this plan.
Those of you that read this site or have kept up with the stadium know that if a county wants to impose a sales tax increase, they have to put it before the voters in a referendum. The next time a voter referendum could be on the ballot is in 2012. Unless the legislature votes to waive that requirement, which they did for Target Field.
And that would be okay, with just a couple of tiny points of contention: The Vikings lease with the Metrodome expires some 10 months before a vote on a referendum could take place, and there's no plan in place to replace that money. So one of the key parts to this deal was to waive the referendum. But Republican leaders in the House and Senate said there isn't support to vote for waiving the referendum. And Dayton rolled over on it.
Tom Powers said it best in the Pioneer Press:
Without some type of follow-up action, Tuesday's announcement basically was one big "drop dead" to the Vikings organization. Not a very subtle one, either.
Because Powers writes for a family paper, he has to say 'drop dead'. Because this is Chris' neighborhood, yo, and he isn't a big fan of the harsh language, I can't tell you what my phrase would be, but let's just say it rhymes with 'duck poo'.
Personally, I think there's stuff a lot more nefarious going on here--are the politicos subtly forcing the Vikings into Minneapolis?
I personally believe that the power players in the Capitol would almost rather see the Vikings leave Minnesota altogether as opposed to leave Minneapolis and re-locate into St. Paul, because the Minneapolis Mafia is still butthurt about losing the North Stars and seeing the Wild come back to the X...which is in St. Paul. And when they said they weren't players for a Vikings stadium, they essentially called Wilf's bluff on a new stadium. They gambled that there wasn't another county in Minnesota that could come up with a way to raise the $350 million required from a local county government, and they never felt Wilf would ever move the Vikings. So they probably thought they could force Wilf to do what they want when they wanted in terms of building a new stadium in Minneapolis.
But when Wilf said 'duck poo' to Minneapolis and struck a deal with Ramsey County, they were furious--and embarrassed. I would almost bet my bottom dollar that there were meetings in back rooms all over Minneapolis, and the power players decided they were going to bend over Wilf and make him dance to their tune.
And this is the song I think they're playing:
1) Further on in Powers' column, he states that "at least now there appears to be unity among our elected officials. They realize that the end is drawing near and they need to get off the dime", but I am of the opinion that there won't be a workable solution that makes everyone happy to finance a plan in Arden Hills, and that will be by design. I mean, this is the same legislature that voted to eliminate the referendum for the Twins stadium...because Target Field was built in Minneapolis...yet now, mysteriously, there isn't the 'political will' to do the same goddamn thing for the Vikings. My contention is there is no political will because the stadium is currently planned to be built in Ramsey County.
2) Minneapolis mayor R.T. Rybak's people almost immediately began pimping the financing plan Minneapolis wants to forward--a plan that the Vikings have rejected out of hand, by the way. So what is the plan? From the Strib:
The mayor’s second funding option for a Minneapolis stadium, garnering funds from a downtown casino, would hinge on some money going to the Target Center and securing the "financial future of the Convention Center." Rybak also wants any gambling revenues to help benefit urban Native Americans.
Here's what I think is going to happen, and I think it will end badly if my theory is, in fact, accurate:
1) A political alliance will soon form around this financing plan, but there will be a catch. And that catch will be that the stadium location has to be moved in to Minneapolis if the financing plan is to be approved in the Legislature.
2) The Vikings want Arden Hills. The Metrodome site isn't workable, and the Farmer's Market site is nothing more than a theory right now, but mark my words, the political class will coalesce around one of those two sites. My guess is the Farmer's Market, because the Vikes have flatly rejected the Metrodome site for a bunch of reasons.
3) The Vikings will be forced to either accept this revised plan that keeps the Vikes in Minnesota, but is less than the ideal plan that is currently on the table in Ramsey County or reject it and move.
4) Wilf sells or moves the team, because these plans are, at least right now, unworkable.
In my opinion, this isn't about what's best for the state of Minnesota, the fans of the Vikings, or the team. This is about the local Minneapolis power players 'beating' Wilf at this point. Wilf out smarted them and found a willing partner outside of Minneapolis, that pissed them off, and they're going to make Wilf take a bad deal or try and take the blame as The Guy Who Moved The Vikings.
And in reality, if the Vikings leave, it will be everybody BUT the fault of Zygmunt Wilf.
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Wilf has been playing hardball the whole time
The whole “we are not going to resign the dome lease” is a hardball move. Always was. The state just gave it back to him by blowing up his overpriced Arden hills plan which had a timeline that he came up with. And Arden Hills is far from perfect. It would probably be more beneficial to the state economy if the stadium was built in a more urban area. In my opinion anyway.
I’m not on the state legislators side here. I want the vikes to stay in minny at any cost, at any location. I live in LA and I am not even sure I would be able to cheer for them if they moved here.
But to suggest that Wilf is some benevolent owner is kind of offensive. He’s trying to squeeze the state for as much as he can, just as any good businessman would.
uh? what?
First, how would keeping them in an urban area bring the kind of construction jobs it would at arden hills? How would it create thousands of jobs outside of the stadium construction?
Second, how is Wilf being greedy when he has offered to pay more than any other NFL owner towards a stadium? Seems pretty generous to me. Why shouldn’t the state pay a portion? It isn’t as if they wont reap the rewards from it. They should be liable for some part.
Seriously, how screwed are the politicans in Minnesota? They first can’t create a budget and now they are giving the “read between the lines of my first and third finger” treatment over something pretty straight forward. When the Marlins threatened to move away from Miami, the city ended up finally hellping them out, we can’t the state politicans do the same? Just mind boggling.
by FSUViking on Nov 1, 2011 11:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
typed on my phone, sorry for the spelling mistakes...
Helping*, we=why*
by FSUViking on Nov 1, 2011 11:05 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Welll
I am in no way educated enough in economics to debate this, but I’m under the opinion that the chunk of the economical benefit would come from bringing money into a certain area over a long period of time. (Hotels, bars, parking, etc.) Not the actual construction of the site. The state is beholden to people and businesses who pay taxes, so wouldn’t bringing this stadium to businesses who actually exist instead of a bunch of theoretical businesses who may exist at some time in the middle of nowhere? Wilf stands to benefit from the arden hills site the most, that’s why he likes it best and acts like any other site is off the table.
2nd) From what I understand………………… a large chunk of wilf’s sum comes from the NFL allotment for new stadiums and user fees, or PSL’s. Wilf actual personal investment that comes out of his pocket is in the 100s of mil, not the 400 that the vikes like to claim. I could be misinformed on this
Definetly the state and a city needs to pony up some cash to keep this business, That’s why an actual city needs to be a local partner cuz the area within a 1/2 mile of the stadium is going to be most effected. Not the taxpayers of east grand forks. The state should come up with something but trying to get 350 mil from the obnoxiously terrible state legislature always seemed too good to be true to me.
Hardly "middle of nowhere"
Arden Hills is 10 miles from Minneapolis, the Twin Cities metro area is approximately 50 miles in diameter, putting the site WELL within the metro area. The metrodome site is way too overcrowded.
by ThorFinsky on Nov 1, 2011 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly ThorFinsky
It’s an excellent site. To the Minneapolis coalition, including the douche-bag Mayor, I say EFF YOU!!!
Its an alright place
Minneapolis is at least in the middle, Arden Hills is pretty north but whatever. Whatever gets it done is fine for me. I’d drive to duluth if I had to.
by Justine Hicks on Nov 2, 2011 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Hey Duluth. Pony up the money.
I can see it now. Arctic winds blowing off of Lake Superior. The new home of the coldest outdoor stadium in NFL now resides in Duluth. Take me back tom those days when the cold breath of best defensive line in the NFL was breathing fear into the opponents backfield. When teams just dreaded seeing a road game late in the season here. Yeah this new place will be colder than a witches tit in brass bra & that’s just October. Pitch it to the county. Real Vikings play in Duluth outdoors.
Why does it matter how much Wilf/NFL puts up?
Either way, I don’t buy the greed argument – he is putting up money and relinquishing any claims of ownership over the stadium. Also, who cares if he’s being greedy? I don’t think he is being greedy, but if he his, good on him. He can get a better deal with people who care more about having a team in LA or Toronto or wherever. I don’t want that and really, neither does he.
Also, he’s putting up 317 Millions of his own money and expects the non-existent, but still probably reliably there (thanks to direct meetings with Goodell) put in a little less than 100 million. Wilf still puts up a third of the money.
by Arif Hasan on Nov 2, 2011 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
In the end, It doesn't really matter at all
But this is politics.
And wilf is pushing for the site he will make the most money on. Why can’t we frame it like that?? I don’t see any flexibility from him. Is he prepared to offer the same amount of money if he gets offered a site that is workable but less benificial to his bottom line??? Wilf is playing hardball for the site that makes him the most money and will raise the value of the vikings the most. Like any good businessman would. I hope he gets it personally becuase talilgating at a vikes games sounds awesome to me but a billion dollar stadium in suburban Minnesota always seemed like a long shot from the get go
Dude, Wilf has been asking for a stadium for years
you realize that right?
So Arden Hills is the site that stepped up. Now Minneapolis is trying to come up with something at the last minute but have not offered anything near as detailed as the proposal from Arden Hills which itself is not totally laid out.
So why wouldn’t Wilf say this is it and this is where I am focusing my energy?
He should just come out and tell the truth and tell it like it is. No other city is stepping up to the plate and the one that is trying to half a s s it at the end still has nothing on the table.
But you think he is just clinging to Arden Hills because he is going to make the most money. Go figure.
This is the biggest problem
Minneapolis has completely dropped the ball on this. I agree with dirtyplay that a more centrally located stadium (downtown or downtown adjacent) is the best and most beneficial location. But, Minneapolis simply has not put forth the necessary effort to put together a plan. This is either monumental ineptness or a sign that they are neutral at best as to whether or not the Vikings stay.
Arden Hills
Is about 15-20 min from downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul by freeway. That’s pretty downtown adjacent, i’d say. It’s not way out in the boonies like some people think.
Absolutely
Minneapolis has screwed him 3 or 4 times in the past 10 years on this issue.
He abandoned the Anoka plan simply because Minneapolis had AN offer, not even a better one. He wants to stay in Minneapolis, but he doesn’t want to deal with Minneapolis.
Anoka County
Anoka County had everything for the wilfs to have on a new stadium and raised our taxes, which is still being collected by the county. i am sure murderapolis had something to do with it falling apart
If by "something to do with it"
you mean offering a supposedly better deal, then when the Vikings dropped the Anoka County deal, completely backing out of the deal they offered then yes, they had “something to do with it”.
I care if he's being greedy...
…. if he wants to be greedy with the money he has, fine. BUT he’s asking for public money to build a stadium in lieu of his own money. You might be fine with it, but let’s put it to a vote and figure out if the rest of the folks care if he’s being greedy.
I guess I should be clearer
The greedier he is, the better for the local municipality. Remember, he’s not asking for a stadium in the sense that he wants the state to build him something to keep. He’s asking the state for a place to play – that is, THEY get to own it, and he would pay for something they own.
And “let’s put it to a vote?” What the hell is representative democracy for then, anyway? Why don’t we put all legislation up for referendum? Also, that vote would happen over a year after the dome lease expires – hardly a timely solution.
by Arif Hasan on Nov 2, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Am I missing something...
…. or do the Vikings already have a place to play? A place with a new roof and field that’s available for a dollar?
Even in a representative democracy there are laws. Even laws that require a referendum in a representative democracy for when local taxes are raised. Like what the schools have to do to raise additional capital in a representative democracy.
LOL – the Metrodome is literally a piece of crap. I’m not speaking figuratively here. It’s actually a big piece of fecal matter sculpted in a way to allow a football game inside.
No.
How different do you think....
…. the experience in a new stadium will be? If you’re a luxury box owner, then sure your experience will be vastly improved. But what will be so different for the vast majority of fans that requires a billion dollar outlay?
It's not about the fans
It’s about the owner having a facility that generates the kind of revenue other teams get.
But what I don’t get is why the fans care much about where it is built. All i want is a deal that keeps the Vikings here. Whatever that takes, and whatever the result is, that’s fine with me.
Well, for one, I’d like to be able to get up and take a leak or grab a hot dog without being crammed like a sardine and taking 45 minutes to do so, missing the entire 3rd quarter. How about tailgating?
Newer stadiums don’t have that problem. Ever been to Target Field?
or TCF Bank stadium
the Gophers have a really nice facility to view a game…. great venue.
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Nov 2, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Really?
Either you have never been to a game game inside the Metrodome or to a newer stadium.
For years I had never seen the inside of another stadium except Soldier field, which was a better experience. I still felt that the Metrodome was crap.
I have since been to other stadiums, and the Metrodome is WAY behind. The narrow Concourse alone is reason enough for me.
They do have a place to play
And that place produces the second worst total revenues of NFL teams, despite selling out every game since 1998. The thing is, Wilf generally would get the same amount of money from direct seat revenue if he had the 3rd best, 15th best or absolute worst in ticket sales. The NFL leans on him and subsidizes him at this point. The more revenue a stadium produces, the more the state gets back in tax value. On non-ticket expenses, yes he has the opportunity to gain more money on his own (as would the state). He is not making that money right now and can sell it. You know who wants to buy? People who want to move the team. That stadium was not built for 45 years of use – you think the roof was the only problem? So yes, he’s asking for a better deal then the one the Vikings have had for quite some time now. In exchange for backing the Vikings, the community benefits economically and socially through the team’s presence. And yes, he’s asking for a place to play that doesn’t have the chance of falling apart.
And yes, I’m aware of that. I disagree with that law, on all levels – school funding, transportation, etc. I think the law, despite being passed by representatives, undermines representative democracy. That make sense?
by Arif Hasan on Nov 2, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wilf bought....
…. the Vikings for $600,000,000 in 2005. The value of the Vikings has gone up a minimum of $200,000,000 in the six years since then. That does not include any operating income. So Wilf is saddled with a franchise that continues to go up in value in a league that continues to go up in value. Ain’t that enough?
The only way he gets to spend that money
Is if he sells the team. Net Worth isn’t liquid. He can leverage it in loans and credit, but he can’t bu a cup of coffee by telling Starbucks that he’ll give 2 dollars of his Vikings worth to them.
So no, it’s not enough.
So this is the greed...
…. you were talking about. My home value isn’t liquid either, but I still pay taxes based on its current value which is five fold what I paid for it.
Clever girl
You asked a question assuming greed, and I answered it without addressing the assumption. Did you miss the earlier point about how, in this case, greed is good for the state? I also mentioned that I don’t care if he’s greedy, so that’s not really a huge point for me.
It also is not asking a ton to develop liquid revenue for something that others benefit from. My point still stands on community economic and social gain.
You don’t cover operating costs with net worth. You don’t cover risk with net worth. Yes, those are theoretically calculated in, but they assume some level of help from the NFL and the state.
Oh no...
… I’ve been called a girl!
Your point on community economic gain does not stand. How did you reach this conclusion? Even the most recent Arden Hills info from the Vikings own website states roughly $20MM/year in revenue for the state. Assuming this to be true and unbiased that is $600MM over 30 years on a public investment of $650MM. Where is this economic gain that you’re standing on come from?
It was actually a reference to Jurassic Park
I don’t know if you’re a girl, and I think skolgirl is pretty intelligent, so that seems like a fairly uncharacteristic insult. Which is why it’s not. I was actually comparing you to a velociraptor.
I can tell you how I reached this conclusion. Just click the link.
That's quite...
…. the detailed post you link to. You do suggest that economic benefits are more notable when building a stadium downtown rather than a suburban locale. That said, the Metrodome was supposed to revitalize the neighborhood too, but that certainly isn’t the case.
What really catches my eye is the quoted tax figures: $508MM tax revenue from all four major sports team over fifty years on $215MM public expenditure. Assuming those figures to be unbiased and accurate, that’s a return of $5.9MM/year from all four major sports teams.
You didn’t mention the Congressional Research Service (non-partisan research team for congress) study that finds no economic benefit from public investment.
Indeed
Yes, the economic benefits are much more pronounced in the Central Business District for a stadium, and significantly less pronounced in suburbs. I would prefer a stadium downtown to one in Arden Hills, but movement by the city of Minneapolis has encouraged Wilf to see them as “bad faith” negotiators. At any rate, not all suburban stadiums had a negative economic impact – Jerryworld had an extremely high gross impact.
I forgot to mention in that article something mentioned in the Strib article – the Vikings, in direct tax dollars, contributed 186 million dollars. Because stadiums almost always increase property values in the surrounding area – best example being the back-and-forth on the Dallas stadium (every time the rumored site changed, property value in the surrounding area improved noticeably, then decreased back to the mean when the next site was considered), this is particularly true for suburbs. Direct tax dollars is not a huge part of the argument of the state getting back – it has a lot to do with out-of-area revenue, property tax increases, etc. Also, events – it would be a multi-purpose stadium for a wide variety of events that generally bring in money. College bowl games alone are extraordinary moneymakers. Most studies talk about the direct effect that spending has on economic gain, but do not mentioned direct taxes on the team because the team is generally considered a static, non-moving entity. I don’t think that’s the case here – we’ll lose them.
I didn’t, but I had already read it. It’s very broad-based on sports stadiums – I don’t know if I’ll ever believe a hockey stadium is revenue positive, for example – and makes broad generalizations. It continues to assume that current economic studies don’t realize the difference between income added and income shifted for entertainment. I addressed that in my post. It also makes its conclusions on the economic benefit by block quoting the Baade articles I’ve already mentioned and answered.
Also, I agree with much of its conclusions. For most cities and most states public investment is generally a bad idea. For Minneapolis, which is demographically similar to several cities that have done well with new stadiums, it is a good idea. I say Minneapolis, but I do mean the Minneapolis MSA, which Arden Hills is a part of. I also agree with the paper’s conclusions that federal subsidies are not worth it.
This is also not to mention
That I made a case for the stadium even if it turns out to be an economic loser
Acutally...
You’re neglecting to take into consideration the time value of money. If you calculate future value on 20 million per year, even with an initial outlay of 300 million. You still have a future value of 753 million dollars in thirty years. That’s using an expected rate of return on money of 8%. Now, with inflation going where it will be going, that figure will be much higher. If inflation hits, and interest rates increase to 10%, then your expected rate of return will be north of that figure. Then, your future value increases dramatically. It’s not just a simple multiplication problem.
Really?
I thought the state’s contribution was capped at $300 million? When did they agree to pony up $650 million? They didn’t? Oh, so you included Ramsey county’s contribution in the “public investment” amount, but only included the state’s additional revenue in the return on that investment amount. I see what you did there. Almost clever.
So, assuming your numbers are correct. But we untwist them a bit. The state puts up $300 million, then the state gets back $600 million. Yeah, doubling your money is never a good investment.
$650MM of....
…. public investment. Is that figure in dispute? What revenue stream can the county expect from the Vikings? And Dayton has said with sales tax off the table, that the state contribution isn’t capped at $300MM any longer. Tell me again how the public investment will be doubled?
You're kidding, right?
About how the county can expect revenue from 70-80,000 people visiting it 10 Sunday’s a year, plus whatever other events and development ends up around it? Because it sure seems to me like they area going to sell more stuff and have some new businesses and have more stuff to charge property taxes on.
The problem with these anti-stadium people is
Many are simply tone deaf and cannot get past the “welfare for billionaires” mantra. They exhibit sickening class envy and many are just plain stupid.
Or maybe it's...
…. that no one can give a straight answer regarding what the public can expect for sinking in over half a billion dollars into a football stadium when dollars are short all around. Not making blind decisions is smart.
P.S. – Drop the class envy bit. I wouldn’t trade my life for anyone else’s.
Dude, read up on the Great Depression
and why it lasted for as long as it did before you go around giving excuses such as “when dollars are short all around”. Times of financial hardships are not the times to reel in spending.
I’ve read enough comments from the losers over at the Strib to realize that anyone who uses the “welfare for billionaire” line is simply stoking the class envy fire. Whether you have such a “great life” is immaterial to being envious of a rich man.
And just spit out the fucking truth for once as it would be a breath of fresh air. Because in reality, you are bitching and moaning over 16 dollars per year. THAT is your cost and you seem to have a mighty big issue with it. So what is the real issue?
You do not understand football obviously
Wilf has taken out loans and called on his investors to get the money to sign free agents (Jared Allen) and give top players new contracts. The reason he has to do this is because he does not generate enough revenue from the stadium as it is currently situated.
I am pretty sure that the stadium commission was splitting the receipts from concessions and parking, etc. with Wilf from Vikings games. So he did not even get all of that. And all other events’ monies goes directly to the commission and not to Wilf. But you seem to overlook the other events held at the stadium and who is getting money from those events.
Add in the fact that the other owners are revenue sharing with Wilf because his stadium situation does not give him enough revenue to be competitive.
The business of football in the NFL requires owners to spend money to put the best talent on the field. Apparently you either do not know this or choose to ignore it.
Wilf has outstanding loans that are eating into much of the profit from the increase in value of the franchise.
This is the key point. Wilf only gets that $200,000,000 if he sells and in that scenario Minnesota not only loses the team they lose the jobs and tax revenue it generates.
Minnesota should try and get a good stadium deal, but the reality is that even a bad stadium deal would be less harmful to the economy than the outright loss of the team and all the income it generates. There’s really no reason that both Minnesota and Wilf can’t both make money on a new stadium deal.
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
What do you mean...
…. “only” gets $200,000,000? That’s a 33% return over 6 years. He certainly wouldn’t have made that investing in the market. That’s a damn fine return.
I mean he only gets that money if he sells the team which means they leave Minnesota. I totally agree that $200,000,000 is a great return and that's why the political dragging out of this issue is scary because It's very easy for Wilf to walk away.
Wilf is going to make money no matter how this all plays out. He wins with a new stadium and he wins to a lesser extent if he has to sell the team. The only possible losers in this situation are the state of Minnesota and Vikings fans.
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
First off,
The whole "we are not going to resign the dome lease" thing isn’t a hardball move, it’s a “we’re tired of your spineless jellyfish antics and we will leave if you don’t get your heads out of your asses” thing. Zygi has been very patient the past 6 years, and any other owner would have likely moved on already had they been working out a stadium deal for ten years. Secondly, Zygi is throwing the most money at the proposed Arden Hills stadium than any other owner has ever thrown at a stadium. It is the state that’s trying to squeeze the scrotum of Zygi, not for money however, but for “dissing” them.
It’s a classic game of the kid who’s not scared of the bully. Unfortunately in this case, the bully seems to be the pissed off principal who just got told off by the kid and now will do anything to get her way, because she’s a powerhungry bitch.
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 1, 2011 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think its like that
It is really more of a pissing match. Or dick measuring contest, if you prefer.
Both, at the same time.
And Favre’s the judge.
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 1, 2011 11:39 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Not much for me to say,
but, with the way the MN gov’t has been screwing over the Vikings with regards to…well, everything…why would they deem the Farmer’s Market to be more viable than the Metrodome site? Because the Vikings have so roundly rejected it, I could see the MN gov’t making them work with that site.
Or maybe I’m just cynical.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Nov 1, 2011 10:53 PM CDT reply actions
This is bad.
Things really seem bleak right now.
If you ask me the whole nation has gotten incredibly selfish lately and is gonna fuck something up awful if it stays that way. The common voter has been claiming far too much entitlement to “hard earned tax money” that they think that because one part of the budget doesn’t directly effect them positively that it should be cut without question (bonus points for a socialism insult)
And the corporations… well they’re corporations. They’ve always been greedy as fuck and then traditionally when they screw the economy like they inevitably will the government cracks down harder regulations to stabilize it. Problem is a lot of people are being duped into thinking that the free market ran itself into the ground from having TOO many restrictions. Stupid, stupid people…
So anyway… Vikings… Right.
I really hope both sides really and truely want the Vikes to stay. We always think they do because we’re fans but it might be true now that the people in government have succeeded in lying to the public about the cons of the state’s contribution and have now turned the public against the Vikes.
by Crosseyes on Nov 1, 2011 11:07 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
Agreed on all points.
13.
Grossman: Sup, you insulin needing bitch! The sex cannon has arrived! Now get the hell out of my locker room, you chinless mother fucker!
You think Americans need to be greedier?
13.
Grossman: Sup, you insulin needing bitch! The sex cannon has arrived! Now get the hell out of my locker room, you chinless mother fucker!
Correct me if i'm wrong
but wasn’t there a fund in the CBA or at least in the last one where the league would help finance new stadiums.
Minneapolis
I don’t care where in Minnesota this stadium is built as long as it is in Minnesota. That being said I prefer Minneapolis myself because that is where I live and the city has been hurting financially for a while. I do not think that it’s as personal as Minneapolis acting like a child not getting what they want, it is more of a business situation. Minneapolis won’t want that kind of competition from Arden Hill, especially when they are already hurting so much financially. I love Minneapolis and would love it even more if the Vikings stayed there. Wilf really just want’s the arden hills site so he can develop around it make some money. I am not putting that against him because he really has been great to Minnesota and the Vikings. You know if he was Red the Vikings would be out of here yesterday. Them leaving now would suck too becuase we are just on the verge of being really good again.
Lets get this straight
don’t get all the jobs that the state needs that would come from the construction of the stadium. further don’t get all the jobs that will come from Wilf developing the area around the stadium and the tax revenue from all those jobs and all that money the area would make. just good Minnesota fiscal policy
Regardless
There is a reason they want it in Minneapolis and I doubt it is for their egos. If Wilf sells the team because he doesn’t want them in Minneapolis then that is him being just as hard headed as our legislature.
by Justine Hicks on Nov 2, 2011 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions
also..
This there will be no tax collected from the Vikes should they leave. that will be huge, people dont get that the state will have to find a way to make that up.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
and don't forget.....
every player that plays in MN, even on the opposing team, what they earn for that game played in MN, is subject to MN state income tax….
as well as all the sales and hotel taxes for visiting fans coming in to watch the game…
I don't see the logic
In the repeated assertion that there are more jobs to be had in Arden Hills. The construction of the stadium is about the same. Then the question is what redevelopment will happen in the surrounding area. Why do you think there will be more redevelopment of the Arden Hills open space than downtown?
More space for construction.
The Minneapolis sites are smaller and limited in what can actually be built there. The Arden Hills site is enormous so in addition to the stadium Wilf has a whole entertainment complex comprising multiple buildings. From some previous articles on this site it also looks like once that area is cleaned up there is plenty of land for hotels, malls, and likely some housing development in the future. Basically there’s room to grow in Arden Hills while there isn’t even room for tailgating at the Metrodome site.
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Thats
Ziggys real money maker he’s a commercial property developer. MPLS in the city needs none it has bars restuarants ..etc
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
The problem with Minneapolis is they have not decided to shat or get off the pot.
Now in the 11th hour they are trying to speak up but still have not even come up with a plan like Arden Hills.
Talking about Minneapolis is just weak. If they want to do something then do it.
Don’t talk about it. Be about it.!
If it is better to have in Minneapolis then tell the dumb a s s e s to put up or shut up!
How long will sheep be led to the edge of the cliff before they realize what is about to go down?
Interesting....
So, you’re saying there’s a positive economic impact to the community in which the Vikings reside? Hmmm….interesting.
And you’re also saying there’s a negative economic impact to the community should the Vikings leave? Very interesting…..
Don't look him in the eyes!
Not the eyes!
by AlldayFurore on Nov 2, 2011 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Question from a non-Vikings fan
Hello, all. I’m a Bengals fan, and I live in Montana. Unfortunately, we don’t have any professional sports teams (we’re too poor, and too small in terms of population), but I’ve gotten to see quite a few Vikings games on TV, due to regional coverage.
Anyway, I have a question for you: I understand why the delayed aspect of the vote is problematic (due to your mortgage), but I’ve seen some posters worry about actually winning the vote, as well. I’m having a hard time reconciling this with posts that say that the voters will “punish” Dayton and company for letting the Vikings leave. If Vikings voters are going to punish politicians in a major election, surely they’d have more than enough influence to deal with a supposedly common-sense referendum. I have a feeling that sports will be drowned out by other issues in the next election, and that many of you realize that.
I’ve always hoped that Montana would get a team (if anything, some dangerously-optimistic NHL franchise), but in my research of sports teams and their effect on cities, I’ve come away unconvinced. There are some benefits, but there are some problems, as well. And I personally think that people should have a say in raising taxes. As desperate as I am to have a sports team here, if the state had to fund a significant portion of it, I’d vote no. It’s ultimately a luxury, and we have way too many disastrous issues to deal with.
This will probably seem like trolling, and I apologize for that. But I wish you luck in keeping the Vikings in Minnesota. After what happened with the Lakers, that would be an injustice of cosmic proportions. Unfortunately, it looks like the anti-Arden Hills people are pretty bipartisan and entrenched…let’s hope you can work out a deal without it having to go to an election, both for time reasons and possible public rejection reasons.
Certainly does not seem like trolling
Voters have been historically finicky about this stuff. Poll after poll showed that Target Field and the Xcel Energy center would not pass in a referendum, but after the completion of both stadiums, popularity for the plan, including taxes, shot up (I think for Target Field it was at around 70% or so at one point).
So certainly voters can make the choice that would encourage the Vikings to leave, then punish politicians who set the Vikings up to fail later, even though they themselves had it in their hands to resolve. The North Stars fiasco was placed much more on owner Norman Greene than Arne Carlson, but Norm Coleman got a lot of electoral momentum as mayor of St. Paul by doing what he could to keep the North Stars and then doing everything he could to bring in a new NHL franchise.
Agreed..
Big timing issue also..todays economy has really swung peoples view that big money makers are all crooked so there is not very much sympathy. I have read many places and Im sure many here have also, nay sayers to the stadium deal seem to think Ziggy is the bad money man and that he is the only that profits from the stadium. All Ive read on this is yes, Ziggy in Arden Hills does well because his main buisness is commercial property so he developes…so what with growth comes all the other things jobs tax income etc..The sad part, is exactly what someone here said else where..“I’ll wait until something happens.”
that in a nut shell is the worst thing we as fans can do.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
The Billings Grizzlies would be an awesome NHL squad.
13.
Grossman: Sup, you insulin needing bitch! The sex cannon has arrived! Now get the hell out of my locker room, you chinless mother fucker!
No trolling - thanks for sharing your perspective
(And I’ve always liked the Bengals, myself!)
BUT one thing I disagree with is the mindset that because it’s a “luxury” it’s unimportant – according to psychologists everywhere, our free time hobbies and pursuit of enjoyment is literally critical to our daily, monthly, yearly, and lifelong survival. Without the release we get from taking a break and relaxing (and watching or cheering for a professional sports team certainly fits that bill), we get wound WAY too tight.
If we lived by this logic, then we need to NOT fund the Arts, Music, and any other source of enjoyment because “times are tight and something’s gotta give.”
To my perspective, that reflects very limited perspective and a lack of understanding about the human condition.
by Wytefang on Nov 2, 2011 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Twins
Man the twins and Vikings have shared a stadium pretty much for ever, they should have just done it again then we wouldn’t even be having this stress.
No way
Multi use always sucks for baseball, and sharing sucks for the economics of both teams.
I agree
Multi-use is great for a lot of things; baseball is not one of them.
Still, this new stadium, with football in mind, should be designed for bringing in multiple events – Final Fours, Pan-Am games, Super Bowls, etc.
That'd be fine with me - Baseball is boring as crap anyway
And clearly our team and front office is even more clueless than the Viking’s Front Office – still ticked that we built those chumps a stadium first. What a joke. I’d trade in the Twins five times over, despite their awesome two World Series victories for the Vikings any day.
Nice in theory
but poor in practice.
Ever sit through a twins game at the Metrodome? The seats face the outfield, so you spend all your time sitting looking to the right or left to watch the game. A major pain in the neck… Literally.
Until they design a stadium with seats that swivel to make for better viewing, then multi-use baseball-football is not a good idea.
We are reading this the wrong way
All this is saying that a sales tax will not be implemented. They are going to look for alternative ways to get the funding and they will probably not limit their imput to 300 mil any more. It wasn’t really fair to ask Arden Hill to come up with that much money anyways and I think if we can get the money another way lets do it. Gov Dayton is actually handling this pretty well I think, given the circumstances. We are too quick to be mad
The problem most probably have is
The fact that many of the opponents have already stated they would rather the Vikings leave than put $300 million towards any stadium.
by AlldayFurore on Nov 2, 2011 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions
this is just getting more and more ridiculous, all i can say now is that...
1. i want the vikings to stay in minnesota.
2. i do not want the stadium to be built in minneapolis.
3. i want the stadium to be built in downtown st. paul and
4. i want the team to get re-named to the “St. Paul Vikings”.
5. i want to tax minneapolis extra to help pay for the st. paul stadium.
that last five of those five are a deliberate slap in the face to the arrogant focks in minneapolis.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
How about
“The Minnesota Vikings of not-Minneapolis”?
Has a nice ring to it
Mikael Granlund: The Great Hope
I think that, in reading the article, I'm not as worried as the hype all day has been.
There’s still a lot of time, and they have a state-wide two cent drink tax in the works that would raise more than enough money. Still though, the Minnesota power people need to get their heads straight, or I will make sure that they are NEVER forgotten as the people who made the Vikings leave. Amy Koch, Dayton and Zellers better get their collective undies out of a bundle..
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
SKOL VIKINGS!
Personally.......
I find it fascinating that a majority of Minnesota’s citizens, or at least the most vocal, are adamantly opposed to a sales tax increase, BUT, these same fine folks will continually put in positions of power those who will campaign on tax increases, more spending, and overall government waste.
So simplistic
Which side controls the leg? Also, Dayton didn’t run on raising everybody’s taxes.
I see.......
as long as he can fan the class warfare embers and raise someone ELSE’s taxes, while raising spending, that’s cool. Got it. Oh, and he certainly did run on raising taxes. Check the record. I wish I had a dime for every schmuck in the middle class who falls for this crap. You raise the taxes on the producers, you kill production and cause inflation and higher unemployment, which, boys and girl, affects EVERYONE.
Sigh
Fine, we obviously disagree on tax policy. IMO, the schmuck who falls for ‘woe is me, the producer!’ rhetoric isn’t any better. I refer to my first question. Which side controls the leg? And which side came out and said no sales tax increase without a referendum? Nobody hasn’t been bloodied in this. Stop trying to make it one sided.
btw
Oh, and he certainly did run on raising taxes. Check the record.
Yeah, he did. But not everybody’s and certainly not in the form of a sales tax, but let’s keep nuance out of this.
by archie2227 on Nov 2, 2011 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
The problem with taxes is that government's routinely misuse or waste the money.
New taxes aren’t inherently bad by themselves, it’s just that government officials don’t always spend tax revenue in an intelligent manner.
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
TCF Bank Stadium
The Bank cost about $300M to build and the state paid roughly half of that. Target Field cost about $522M and 2/3 of that is coming from a 0.15% sales tax. Public funding was also used for the Target Center and Xcel Energy Center – and the Metrodome and Metropolitan Stadium. So now the Vikes are finally saying its their turn, and our elected officials are balking? Look at all the precedents! I don’t understand why this is so difficult. Do we really want our most iconic and successful franchise to leave? I support Arden Hills but I think it should be supported with a sales tax by the entire metro area – and not just Ramsey County. Every other site/funding proposal just gets too damned complicated and mired down in side issues. I mean now the stadium funding is going to include aid to urban Indians. Man – what next – a plan that will give every teacher a 25% raise and every kid a lifetime supply of candy and lollipops???
by Torstein on Nov 2, 2011 7:07 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
don't forget diapers...
kids will revive taxpayer funded “free” diapers until they reach the age of 29.
They should us supply hip waders instead…it’s getting full of “political”
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Nov 2, 2011 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions
A few random thoughts....
Because I just spent some time in Sacramento, where the bazillionaire owners of the Sacramento Kings, the Maloof brothers, are trying to build a new basketball arena to replace ARCO arena (primarily because ARCO is “old” at the age of 24, and doesn’t have all the corporate luxury boxes that they want to suck corporate money from).
1) There is NO state money for this arena. Granted, they are proposing an arena that “only” costs $400 million, but it has never been discussed that they would even consider going to the State for money.
2) None of the money would come from property or sales tax hikes. All of it would come from the development of the surrounding area and businesses, an additional room tax within the city, and a variety of user fees. A tax increase proposal got killed a few years back.
3) The only reason that the Vikings are playing hardball on not letting it go to a local city or county vote for a tax increase is because in very few cases around the country have the voters said, “Yeah!” and in Sacramento the voters absolutely trounced the stadium sales tax proposal. It wasn’t even close.
It is not like Arlington, Texas, by any means, where the city approved a cap of $325 million to be paid off in bonds by with proceeds from a half-cent sales tax increase, 2 percent hotel-motel tax hike and 5 percent increase in car rental tax.
There are just too many people like my mom, who lives here in Elk River, who vote, and while she is both older and usually votes for any cockamamy politician who promises sunshine and lollipops and helping those poor downtrodden people wherever but neglects to say they are going to raise taxes to do it she will not knowingly VOTE for a tax increase. My mom and all 80 bazillion of her elderly women friends have all said they are against a tax to fund a stadium. Let me know if you have any ideas for helping move them all to Wisconsin or maybe Illinois.
4) It is just too hard to get a stadium built with too many players, which is what is happening here. The Guv, the state politicos, various cities, the old stadium commission, the counties, etc. all thrive on power and intrigue, not accomplishment. As long as they have a finger to point at someone else they will never say it is their own fault they couldn’t get it done.
by liveforadrenaline on Nov 2, 2011 7:52 AM CDT reply actions
I missed who it was on KFAN this morning,
but he said this:
“If the Vikings walk away from this with everything they wanted, then we haven’t done our job.”
WHAT?!? How does that make any fucking sense? You don’t think you’ve done your job unless the other side came away without something they wanted? No wonder the morons keep fucking with the plan.
I agree that I don’t give two shits about where the stadium ends up – Arden Hills, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Bloomington, whatever. But that’s not an excuse to yank the organization around. The state had their opportunity, more than once, called Wilf’s bluff and he pulled it out. He found a partner. They should have to deal with that, because it’s not like that plan is bad for the people of Minnesota.
Speaking of which, this guy also said “We want to do what’s best for the people of Minnesota, not what’s best for the Vikings.”
How is that even appropriate? He’s essentially saying the Vikings will go where we want to put them, or they can duck off.
The guy’s whole attitude was poor, and it’s a public and excellent example of exactly how backwards this process has been.
It's called "negotiation"
And a little tip for you: the Vikes are doing it too.
What a fantastic lesson in condescension, thank you so much.
Nobody’s pretending that both sides aren’t negotiating. But the Vikings did their part. Wilf found a partner.
That was the negotiation, per the article above:
1) Find a local partner that has a way to finance approximately one third of the cost
2) Get a location
The Vikings worked with that. Now the state has changed their mind.
by Jesse on Nov 2, 2011 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, then
Why are you acting all surprised that your anonymous KFAN person is saying that the state wants to get the best deal it can for the state?
Because they already did that.
That’s what the state did when it asked Wilf to find a partner with financing for 1/3 of the stadium and a location. Those were their own stipulations. Wilf met those stipulations.
And that happened after one hell of a lot of negotiation had already taken place, on both sides. The state has had more than enough time to work out exactly what it wants from the Vikings. So when they set that bar, and the Vikings meet it, and then they change their mind this close to The End, yeah, I’m probably a bit more on edge than I usually am.
Also, this official wasn’t talking about getting the best deal for the state. It sounded like he was more concerned with making sure the Vikings didn’t get everything they wanted and was using “what’s best for the people of Minnesota” as an excuse.
Again, I don’t care where the stadium ends up. And I’d like the deal to be the right one “for the people of Minnesota”. At one point they thought that Arden Hills was apparently that right choice – otherwise they wouldn’t have set those stipulations in front of Wilf. But they did, and that tells me this is more about a power play for location than finding the right landing spot or finding the right deal for the people.
Article from the Pioneer Press
http://www.twincities.com/ci_19240403
“The Arden Hills site has not been eliminated. The sales tax option has been eliminated,” said Vikings vice president Lester Bagley.
“We’re going to put our heads together with Ramsey County and continue to try to find a way to move that package forward.”
lets hope cooler heads prevail
cooler that mine right now…. (channeling my inner Cartman) words cannot express how ###ed off i am right now… you guys … seriously!(/end Cartman) 
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Nov 2, 2011 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Okay
First of all, stop bitching here and call and/or write your legislators (be polite).
Second, I think Ted’s taking this more negatively than it is. The Vikes don’t seem exercised about it.
Third, there are strong public policy reason to prefer a downtown (either city) location to building on a giant empty space. The redevelopment potential makes questions about whether a stadium can pay for itself less central because the public gets more than just a stadium out of it. Even if that means that the sacrosanct tailgating is a bit harder.
Fourth, this is a negotiation. Wilf wants a deal that will make him the most money. The state wants a deal that costs them the least. Vikings fans should want a co promise that makes Wilf enough money so the team stays for as little public investment as possible. I don’t get why anyone sees eithe side as somehow evil.
Finally, since when is Bloomington “Minneapolis” and Arden Hills “St. Paul?”
This is just silly
1. My legislator is on record as saying no. She has reiterated that position several times. My nicely worded letters go unanswered. My phone calls are in a voicemail somewhere unless deleted. My emails receive the perfunctory reply, “Thanks for your inquiry…… blah-blah-blah”
2. Ted is rightly mad. Ziggy and the Vikes however have to play nice until a deal is finalized or until the ultimate rejection/impasse. The Vikings are also probably making backup plans that include sites not located in Minnesota.
3. What is this strong policy reason? Please state it. If it some fuzzy ideal that it has to be in downtown because of urban renewal, or mass transit access or whatever; spare me. These are Minneapolis talking points because they know their potential sites are inferior.
4. I will disagree that this a real negotiation. The Vikings called the state’s bluff about finding a site and a local partner. They did what was asked in good faith. Now the “Minneapolis Mafia” is in panic mode because they were jilted. They are posturing, not negotiating. There is a difference.
5. I will agree with you on this point. It should read Hennepin Co. and Ramsey Co. The point is, they are both in Minnesota and the state will receive the revenues from either site. The state should not insist that on Minneapolis over Arden Hills or the other way around. There is a deal with Arden Hills and Ramsey County. There is not a deal with Minneapolis and Hennepin County. Why is the state “negotiating” for Hennepin County after the fact? They (Minneapolis) all but ignored the Vikings until they had a deal with Ramsey Co.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
thanks for having already done what you can
Whether she has responded or not, your view has been noted. Sounds like your rep is already a lost cause, but all we can do as citizens is tell them what we think and make clear that it matters to how we vote (btw, you only mention one legislator, have you tried your Senator too?
And I said above what the strong policy reasons are, but I guess to you anything that doesn’t favor Arden HIlls is just a Minneapolis talking point. But I do think that some around here are missing the advantage of the urban redevelopment point. It’s a very hotly contested question whether stadiums generate enough in additional state revenue to pay for themselves, so having the added benefit of being the center of a redevelopment project bolster the benefit side of the equation and, importantly, gives elected officials cover. They can say to voters, “this wasn’t a hand out to a billionaire, this was part of our overall plan to renew the whole area.”
After all, the reason it’s hard to get a stadium deal done is that it’s a politically difficult vote for a lot of our elected officials. There are a lot of people who oppose publicly financed stadiums, so maybe we should be rooting for the best deal that can actually happen?
Finally, there isn’t a deal with Arden Hills and Ramsey County. That deal requires approval from the state legislature. That’s why the state is involved in the negotiation.
But admittedly, it was unreasonable of me to suggest people stop bitching here. You can continue to do that too, as long as you also do something that might help a little and contact your legislators.
Hi amiller92.
It was my Senator to whom I talked. She is Barb Goodwin of SD 50. This is the district where the Arden Hills site is located. I talked with my 50A rep.(it does not include the stadium site) personally at a community meeting. LOST Cause.
Why is re-development in Minneapolis more important than a new development of an empty site in Arden Hills? One could easily argue, from a state revenue perspective, that new development creates new revenue sources. (I think this argument is a little dubious myself.)
I am not interested in giving cover to elected officials. Do what is right. The Arden Hills site will produce more revenue and that is why the site is better!!! It will probably cost less in $ and social costs because you will not be kicking out/buying out EXISTING property owners and taxpayers.
There IS a deal with Ramsey County. There is NOT a deal with Hennepin County. That is a prerequisite for a deal with the state. Now they want to scuttle that deal for a different deal that is politically motivated. I do not call that negotiating in good faith. Any deal requires state approval in the end. Your argument here is not valid.
Worse yet, the state is negotiating on behalf of the county. Political favoritism.? I think so.
We are both bitching. We are taking different tacts to come to a solution. And I imagine one, or both of us will be disappointed in the end. :-(
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Because it's empty
The Arsenal is just an extra piece of the adjacent Ramsey County Open Space. There is nothing wrong with having open space in lightly populated suburban areas. It’s not imposing costs on it’s neighbors and the community by being left empty, the way underutilized urban space does. Also, as a great big open space in the suburbs, it’s only a matter of time before someone is going to be more than happy to use private money to build something there.
As for cover for elected officials, the point is that lots of people don’t think building stadiums for billionaire owners to have their millionaire players use is “what’s right.” We aren’t going to win politically with moral arguments on this one.
Finally, the only way I end up disappointed in the end is if they don’t get a deal done and the team leaves. I would prefer a downtown stadium, but if it’s in Arden Hills, that’s fine with me too. It surprises me sometimes that people around who prefer Arden Hills don’t feel the same way.
The Arsenal is an urban open space?! The adjacent land maybe.
It is a Superfund Clean Up site. It is a site that is off limits to the public. No private investor will take on that site until the pollution concerns are addressed. It is a site that requires (IMO) government involvement to develop. The pollution concerns should be addressed whether it is developed or not. This is an opportunity that is win-win!
If that pollution ever gets into the groundwater of adjacent communities. their costs will not be insignificant.
I will in the end accept a Minneapolis site. I will be disappointed though. That is knowing that a better site was available that was a much better deal for the state, the Vikings and almost all concerned.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Uh, no it isn't
Unless you are using a very strange definition of “urban.”
By the way, the pollution has been in the ground water for years. When I was a kid they had to drill deeper wells for the local water because of it.
Yes, it needs clean-up, but that’s hardly unique. Both the Farmers Market and the Linden Avenue sites probably do too.
Obviously, there is room for disagreement, but I don’t see Arden Hills as better for the state. It’s obviously better for the Wilfs. Whether it’s better for the fans depends on how you weigh easier tailgating and a freeway adjacent location against likely higher prices and lack of access to transit.
It's not exactly
in the boonies, though. It’s, what, 2 minutes north of 694? 5 Minutes from Roseville and 10 from MPLS. Sure, it’s 30-45 minutes from some of the monied suburbs, but Arden Hills is very much a part of the metro.
by archie2227 on Nov 2, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's been confused about its location for a while in these types of posts...
It’s definitely not that far from downtown – the Southies are always going to whine when they hear that something might be built up north. It’s just what it is. Look at all the griping (and time it took) to finally get Hwy 100 worked on. Ridiculous.
Anyway, the Arden Hills site is excellent and we can only pray that it gets used for the Stadium Site eventually…
Who is confused?
I didn’t say it is in the boonies. I’d call it the middle of nowhere because it’s a giant open space without much other than other open space around it, but that doesn’t make me confused.
I spent the early years of my life on Arden View Court. Go look up where that is (hint: immediately across 96 from the Arsenal). When I was 8, we moved to New Brighton near Long Lake. Look that up too (hint: about 2 miles from the Arsenal). I went to high school at Irondale, where you might want to think about parking on game days if you don’t want to shell out whatever the Wilfs are going to charge. I could go on, but suffice to say I probably know the area a lot better than you (was it you who thought people would park at the NSC 8 miles away?).
We've gone over this before...you have some weird irrational fear about the site and honestly...
…it’s not worth arguing about (for you or me, I’m sure). There are tons of spaces with not much around them, all over the state, but I think you’re usage of the words “middle of nowhere” is just too inappropriate and confusing.
Look again
I only said “middle of nowhere” after someone said it wasn’t the middle of nowhere. I said it isn’t urban, which ain’t the same thing.
But it’s good that you can handle disagreement without deciding that the other person is irrational or fearful.
Perhaps I should say you have an irrational fear of other people and public transportation?
I don’t like the site, as I’ve said before, because I think it’s low bang for the public buck in that there isn’t much public benefit in building on empty land. I’ll take it, but I think public money is better spent on redeveloping underutilized urban areas.
But this site should be great for those rich people you like so much who can afford to drive and pay a ton for parking. Neve rmind those poors who might rely on public transit.
But you and I and all of us know that they'll surely implement a ton of solutions for transportation.
I think you’re arguing a moot point here. In all honesty, I’d just be happy to see it anywhere but my issue with your points is simply that I think the Arden Hills sites has other benefits that make it a bit more appealing, overall.
And let’s not overlook the fact that the Vikings seem to feel it’s a great site, too, after looking at all the factors.
Umm...
unfortunately the poor people are already priced out of the NFL. A new stadium will only make this worse with PSL. You’re fighting a worthy battle, but I fear it is already lost.
Separate point: Why is redevelopment a better use of money than new development? Wouldn’t it be more likely for truly small business to invest in an already built area?
the way underutilized urban space does
The “underutilized urban space” is currently utilized by other entities. Placing a stadium there is essentially kicking out those property owners.
Also, as a great big open space in the suburbs, it’s only a matter of time before someone is going to be more than happy to use private money to build something there.
So that’s why it’s sat empty for the last 30 years?
Between 1974 and 1985, the federal government started decommissioning TCAAP. While munitions production by private entities continued into the early 2000s, operations were a fraction of peak production. Plans to transfer portions of the property and redevelop it have been in the works since the 1980s. Source
But I do agree that I will be happy no matter where it ends up, as long as it is in MN!
Much of it isn't
That’s the point. Much of the Linden Avenue site is just empty. The Metrodome site will be empty if there’s a new stadium, and much of what’s around it is surface parking lots (and the county crime lab, HCMC, which of course are public).
As for the Arden HIlls site, it’s had some development over those 30 years as the federal government has made portions of it available. There are “new” buildings on the north side of 96 that weren’t there when I was a kid, although I guess it looks like they are mostly city and county facilities.
It is silly until the Vikes are gone, which they will be!
Well said, could not agree with you more but just add this is where our beloved Vikings have one foot out the door, give me two step and you’ll never see me no more!
Then what will we have, I’ll use the words from the article above, a bunch of duck poo….
but not one of 32 NFL franchises.
My new mantra is to send all of the state politicians against building a new stadium and keeping the Vikings where they need to be a bag of duck poo.
From the House:
Had an interesting exchange on Twitter with Kevin Watterson, the director of media services for the MN state House GOP. Basically he said that the legislature doesn’t really have a choice in this matter, it’s a requirement to have a referendum. And he says the previous legislature screwed up by allowing the Twins and Target Field to skip past the referendum, so you can’t expect the current one to make the same mistake. As he put it: “Point being: It’s unfair and illogical to expect this Legislature to vote one way just because a previous Legislature did”
Evidently 40 of the 71 reps who voted for the Target Field exemption are no longer in the House. When I asked him if the high turnover was due in part to public outcry over the exemption, and therefore causing the current legislature to balk at doing the same for the Vikes, he responded “Possible. But different people in different times and circumstances.”
I think he’s mostly blowing smoke up my wazoo with his whole “legislature’s hands are tied” line, and it’s more likely everyone is worried about losing their seat, like a lot of Reps did after the Target Field situation.
He is definitely blowing smoke about the "hands are tied" line
It is not illegal to craft an exemption to a law. You have literally just passed a law. If it was in the constitution, then he’d have a case, but it’s not. The statute holds the same rule of law as a law passed now that would nullify it. In fact, it would hold less value because laws passed more recently, even ones that don’t specifically overturn or nullify legislation, have priority.
That is so beyond dumb I can’t even think of why someone would say that.
“Yes it’s the law. It can be changed with a law”
He'd say it
So he doesn’t have to say, “we aren’t doing it because we said no new taxes.”
Have a question for you guys from a Panthers fan
Why is it necessary that the team receives public funding for a stadium? Our stadium required zero public funding due to the PSL system that Richardson utilized in the early 90’s. Admittedly our stadium didn’t cost as much, but I’d think with the population in the area they’d be able to be successful with a similar system and significantly reduce any public burden. Why is it not used more?
The Bengals are a perfect example of why cities are reluctant to foot the bill for a team, and with the economic climate the way it is, I can somewhat understand why there’s so much pushback by the gov’t. If a team can’t be successful without public funding than its extending itself beyond its means, and any significant revenue collapse in the NFL will put the state in the hole for years.
I'm not sure about the Panthers' stadium,
But ours is used for many, many other things besides Vikings’ football. Why should we pay for the entire stadium when we’ll only be using it for 8 games a year? Using public money will in no way put Minnesota is a hole for years, because we’re not taking money from the state’s budget or taking it from other projects, we’re raising taxes a half cent, creating new revenue that will go back to the state in time by the many people we put to work on the new stadium, the surrounding infrastructure, and new infrastructure. I hope I answered your questions.
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 2, 2011 9:46 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
As is ours
The thing is basing it on a tax number is dangerous, that’s what I was getting at with the Bengals issue. Tax revenue has flatlined so their stadium takes up a significantly higher percentage of the county budget than expected and is straining the local legislatures. Politicians and businessmen are good at milking a number for a best case scenario. I haven’t looked at the budget number, but have you read into the fine print of the sales tax increase number? Is the $m/yr based on population growth or historical spending data graphs with projections upwards? If it is and anything doesn’t go as planned (growth, spending) or there’s any sort of economic dip, a shortfall will occur that has to be overcome. Its essentially mortgaging future gains, and if those gains don’t materialize, you’re up shit creek without a paddle.
How is Dayton...
…. the bad guy in all of this? He’s been championing the Vikings, but doesn’t have the authority to do this without legislative support.
And for those who complain about Minneapolis’ role in all of this: tough luck. A new stadium is needed, not because of the regular fans, but because of the corporate elite’s need for additional luxury and more of it. The corporate elite is centered in Minneapolis and it is their needs that are being catered to, not the regular fans.
ugh
not good news to wake up to on my birthday. :(
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Nov 2, 2011 9:32 AM CDT reply actions
Happy birthday!
Dayton and the Legislature and Arden Hills and Ramsey County and Minneapolis and Wilf and the Vikings are all negotiating to get you a birthday cake as we speak. You should get it in about 48 years or so… after you pay a user fee and sales tax on it, of course…
by liveforadrenaline on Nov 2, 2011 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
so hows that for a slap on your butt
oh… and happy birthday ;-)
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Nov 2, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Happy Birthday Son. :-)
You are following in my footsteps! :-)
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
It's a complicated issue.
1.The GOP will support no new taxes.(where have I heard that before?)
2. The DFL will support no new casinoes.( They where long a go bought by the Indians.)
3. A portion of the GOP hates gambling in any form. Thus they can’t pass a gaming financed option on thier own.
4.The DFL won’t support the Arden hills stadium.( not even the Reps in who’s district it would be built.)
5. I think the Arden hills plan is probably DOA.
6. I think the DFL may support a Minneapolis plan that uses pull tabs or a blockE casino.
The Peoples Stadium
Since its pretty clear at this point we can’t count on the state to pony up the 300 mill they promised…. why can’t we petition the Wilfs (as fans) to pay that third?
I for one would be quite happy to contribute to a stadium in the Hills of Arden.
Vikings Valhalla .com
You’d think that every Viking fan in Minnesota would gladly see a raise in taxes if it were to get us a shiny new stadium…
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 2, 2011 9:54 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not talking about a tax...
I’m talking about a fund raising. Somewhere we as fans can go to contribute and know this money goes to the stadium…. (Not the Wilfs and not the state). like buying a brick or purchasing a seat.
Then we as fans get the naming rights. ;-)
VALHALLA Stadium! (hell I would be happy with MOA field at Valhalla Stadium)
note: kidding about naming rights.
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Nov 2, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
That's basically what the PSL system is that I mentioned in an above post, used by the Panthers
See this for more information.
Not going to do that
Because it means the team can’t implement a PSL in the future and pocket the money.
Makes sense
But I’m still missing something… only a dimwit would pay so much money toward a stadium that they would not even own, and I don’t think Wilf is a dimwit.
Why drag the State into this when a condition is that the Vikings owner won’t own the stadium? Or is that a condition of Arden Hills and Ramsey County?
Why doesn’t Wilf just do it himself and own the thing?
by liveforadrenaline on Nov 2, 2011 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
They don't want to own it
It’s just a big potential liability, and not worth much on it’s own.
So...
What is really happening is that Wilf wants to make money on the surrounding development, ie Arden Hills, and doesn’t care about the place for the Vikings to play. Minneapolis is not acceptable to him because he can’t do that.
Yeah, I know, this is a big leap, but the same is true in other stadiums where owners and developers made a mint off the surrounding area but pawned off the stadium itself on the taxpayers, as much as possible…
by liveforadrenaline on Nov 2, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
That's spot on.
Wilf made the billions that enabled him to buy the Vikings thru real estate development. That’s his calling card. The Vikings are just the vehicle to enable further real estate development profit on the public dime.
... how could you possibly know that?
I would at least like some positive proof of something besides “he stands to benefit, and it… you know, fits” before I start calling people out on their motivations.
Perhaps the detailed maps....
…. the Vikings provided the Ramsey county suburbs with additional development beyond the stadium would satisfy?
Since when does following through on the details of a proposal
imply an ulterior motive? Yes, he’s in real estate, and yes it’s a real estate proposal. Somehow, he managed to scrape together a proposal that would look attractive to community planners concerned about economic development that people who benefit directly from economic development would benefit from.
If I’m a player and a quality control coach at an NFL team, and I present a detailed statistical analysis of the upcoming opponent’s tendencies that just happen to point towards my heavy usage in the upcoming game, am I automatically suspect?
Are you saying...
…. that he’s not interested in profiting from development surrounding the stadium? If that’s not what you are saying, what exactly are you saying?
I think what he's saying is that Wilf is businessman and he's obviously going to try and make a profit any way he can.
What you seem to be missing is that the state will also be making a profit off the majority of Wilf’s development of this site because they will own the stadium and the land that Wilf would be building on. It’s called a partnership and both the state and Wilf should make money off of the Arden Hills deal.
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Not sure why you think owning he stadium is profitable
But not something Wilf wants. Ownership means little, in part because it’s worth nothing without a team.
Owning the stadium is profitable because the state gets every dollar of revenue from every event other than Vikings games.
Concerts, Final Four games, trade shows, MLS franchise, monster truck/motocross races, and anything else the state can come up with the other 355 days a year that the Vikings don’t play home games are all sources of revenue the state gets from owning the building while the Vikings pay for the maintenance.
I think Wilf would love to own the stadium himself but I don’t think he could afford to pay for the whole shebang on his own. He’d have to pay the full billion plus he’d have to buy the land it would occupy from the state. Even Jerry Jones would be hard pressed to foot that bill and he’s much wealthier than Zygi. Wilf has had to ask his development partners for money on more than one occasion to even sign players like Allen and Favre. If he has to ask his partners for money on contracts in the tens of millions I think he’d have an awful hard time coming up with an extra billion for a stadium.
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, just one more thing I wanted to add.
A project this expensive requires a partnership to make it work. Wilf couldn’t afford to do it on his own and the state definitely couldn’t fit the entire bill by itself either. Working together, along with 100 mill from the NFL, they can get it done and should both be able to make a good profit.
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't get what's in dispute here
Wilf wants Arden Hills because he thinks he can make money off the surrounding development. There isn’t any disagreement about that, is there?
He obviously can make money
But I’m not so quick to accuse someone of ulterior motives and having backhanded motivations. That the Vikings are “just the vehicle to enable further real estate development profit” is something I’m contending.
He tried dealing with Minneapolis 3 times, where he would make less money – he even gave up on the Anoka proposal that would net him more money to be lured away by empty promises.
I Don't Think
Wilf has any ulterior motives. I think they are laid out pretty well, and no one begrudges him profits. It’s simply that he has HOPED that he could get government financing from someone.
The only thing happening is that Minneapolis has not stepped up to the plate, nor the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission, which owns the Metrodome, nor the Governor, or legislature, nor State, nor other municipalities and counties other than Arden Hills & perhaps Ramsey County.
Not only have these not stepped up, they are going to leave him dangling with some pretty fancy carrots, but just carrots nonetheless.
I really think that the $300 million financing from the State is dead, because I’ve talked to perhaps 5 different legislators face to face and they are saying that the only thing that can be agreed on in the Legislature at this point is that no one can agree on how to finance this $300 million. Which is exactly what Emeyenburg said above.
Wilf is probably just coming to this conclusion, too, and that leaves him to decide on his own how to proceed with financing, and as a developer, the more power to him if he can figure out a way to get this to proceed using the proceeds from development of Arden, with perhaps a boost from the City and Ramsey County. Perhaps that is why he said that Arden is not dead.
I think he negotiated with Minneapolis and others in good faith, but he is probably going to have to go at the development with even more gusto to make this work, and drop the statewide public funding, and spend more time working on the vote for a tax increase for the Arden site for their $350 million share.
by liveforadrenaline on Nov 2, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's in the plan
The Arden Hills plan explicitly says that Wilf retains development rights of at least some of the surrounding real estate. So yes, he hopes to profit off of addtional development, but he’s been very upfront and transparent about it.
Much worse than this news
Is this, from Speaker Zellers:
Dear GOP Members:
I am writing to provide you with an update regarding the Vikings stadium issue.
This afternoon, Governor Dayton agreed to drop his earlier support to exempt a referendum for both Arden Hills and Minneapolis. As you know, I have been insistent that an imposition of a sales tax must include, at a minimum, a referendum.
Again, I want to be clear about my position regarding a special session for a Vikings stadium. I have repeatedly told Governor Dayton that I will not support a special session for a Vikings stadium. This issue can be addressed during the regular session. I will continue to communicate this message to the governor, legislative leaders, the public and media.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
Kurt
Speaker Kurt Zellers
State Representative, District 32B
463 State Office Building
St. Paul, MN 55155
Minneapolis might be late to the game and playing catch up, but at least they are still talking about taking action. Mr. Zellers seems to not care whether the Viking stay or not.
Don't you think player salaries play a role in this?
AD Peterson signs a contract that’s possibly worth 100 million. last year it was reported that Favre was making $15,000 a minute.
If you are a common taxpayer that has had a salary cut, or lost your job, Im sure you would say, “let the team pay for it’s own damn stadium”, even though all the economic benefits of a new stadium may help your own situation.
Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. - John Lennon
They pay state taxes on that $.
They will pay state taxes on that $ in California if they move to LA.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I agree, just say no to LA Vikings.
I was just looking at it from the middle class working man taxpayer point of view. People that make their living off investing are only paying about 15 %, so it’s hard to figure out why they’d care if there’s a tax increase for a new stadium.
Around here the jails are overcrowded, but there’s no way anyone will vote for a tax increase to do anything about it. People are just through with new taxes of any kind, especially if it obviously benefits millionaires.
Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. - John Lennon
by JethroBoViking on Nov 2, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think you're whiny either.
Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. - John Lennon
by JethroBoViking on Nov 3, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
A possible solution?
Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m looking at this whole mess and if it is the money that would be coming from the partner (Ramsey Co) that is in question why not just add $10 to a ticket along with a tax for concessions at the game that goes toward the stadium bill. A 70,000 seat stadium at 10 games a year times a 30 year lease would produce 210M plus concessions taxes and other events having a similar setup.
This way only the people using the stadium would be paying for that portion of the funding. I’m sure this would have to please even the idiots in office there.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Nov 2, 2011 10:53 AM CDT reply actions
But not the Wilfs
If ticket prices are going to go up by $10, they want to keep that money.
What a sham. I posted this Oct 28 when everyone wasn't paying attention
It’s gonna get UGGLLYY with dinosaurs waking up.
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2011/10/28/2521130/where-we-should-all-give-up-on-govt-of-minnesota
by VikesFanSince1967 on Nov 2, 2011 11:10 AM CDT reply actions
Honestly, piss up a rope
You don’t like it, don’t read it. This is a sports blog, sometimes we say bad words.
Some people just need a high five. In the face. With a chair.
by Ted Glover on Nov 2, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
"butthurt" is a bad word?
I thought it added a nice bit of flare.
Rec'd and a great spot for one of my favorite Ween songs : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7M3EEHYkJ0
Oh, should probably put a language warning under this link for the kids!
by CanadianViking on Nov 2, 2011 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I Prefer Minneapolis
I might be in the minority here, and I might be risking receiving a lot of flack for this, but I prefer Minneapolis as the site for the Vikings stadium. Hear me out on this. Arden Hills, to me, is too geographically removed from the urban core that most pro sports situate themselves in. It also provides an unfair transportation burden to those living in the south-of-the-river suburbs like myself here in Prior Lake. Minneapolis provides a more central location for a stadium that serves the area more equitably. It would provide equal driving distances to the stadium, give or take a few miles, from the outlying suburbs. Also, what irks me about the Wilfs’ insistence upon Arden Hills is that it seems to me to be little more than a giant real estate and commercial development subsidy/boondoggle for them. If they were more earnestly concerned about keeping the team here, they’d be more open to other locations and have less of an “Arden Hills or Bust” mentality. I understand that the Arden Hills location would provide an optimal game day experience and a more fan-friendly experience with tailgating and whatnot, but it just seems too expensive overall and costly in terms of transportation costs to the fans driving from the south. I hope I haven’t rankled the readers too much here. Just voicing my opinion, that’s all.
There are arguments to be made for Minneapolis
but that ship sailed for me when Minneapolis bowed out and basically said ’we’re not interested’. At that point, what was Wilf supposed to do? Wait around for Minneapolis to maybe, someday, decide that they would like to join up in a stadium when Ramsey County was willing and able and met all the requirements?
That’s my whole beef with this. If Minneapolis had been a serious partner and came up with a plan that was just as good as Ramsey County, then I could see the state wanting the new facility to stay in Minneapolis, but it didn’t happen that way.
Some people just need a high five. In the face. With a chair.
by Ted Glover on Nov 2, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good points. Gov't was busy with other pressing issues
and causing real state gov’t gridlock. It’s real assuring to all Minnesotans that all they did was some can kicking of tough decisions down the road (getting the budget passed but not fully solving the budget problem). At least if anything gets screwed up, it’s not their fault but roadkill for the next group of elected officials. Why does anyone bother with being elected in the first place with this dysfunction in the first place?
Business crisis management is different than political crisis management. Politics have too much of a ’what’s in it for me’ factor so they can stay elected. I guess american style democracy isnt such a good thing in crisis situations. Not so much for prior years of a balanced situation. A business style downsizing is just not possible with legislative complexities with the law. More law messes it up further. The american way hardly becomes simpler. State Gov’ts are so not ready for the quick changing 21st century needs of the people.
by VikesFanSince1967 on Nov 2, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
You are entitled to your opinion.
I argued a few weeks back that your transportation woes might be less in Arden Hills. Why? Time spent in traffic jams in and out of the crowded downtown sites will be longer than the extra 10 minutes to Arden Hills. And less stressful.
Why is it when the old Met, MOA, Canterbury, Minnesota Zoo etc.; the tranportation burden for northern suburbanites never a problem? But if a site is to the north, all transportation woes are suddenly a concern.
Many stadiums are not located in the city core. New York, Dallas and New England come to mind.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Let's not forget
Arizona, San Diego, New England, Washington, Kansas City, Miami… All of which are more than 8-10 miles from their respective primary city core. Much less 2 major cities.
Depends on how well it's designed
I’ve spend just as long getting out of huge parking lots at other stadiums.
True...
but the metrodome site has the added congestion of a metropolitan area.
Take away all those extra cars and traffic eases. Not to mention there will likely be exits onto I-35 and Hwy 10 that will split traffic pretty evenly.
Downtown is pretty quiet on Sunday
Unless there is a game.
But the 35W/694 interchange should be fun on Sundays if they build up in Arden Hills. It used to be that those stupid ramp meters would create backups in all directions during rush hour. Don’t know if they still have them as I don’t go that way very often anymore.
Exactly.
There’s no logical way it would be even remotedly close between the two, as far as congestion goes – downtown is simply more crowded in both space and people. Arden Hills would certainly be superior in that regard.
I think it's a strange view to think a lack of people is a good thing
But hey, I guess it’s different strokes.
But again, not having other cars around doesn’t mean you can get in and out of the parking lots if they aren’t well designed. See, e.g., Fedex Field.
Well yeah, but are we already worrying about parking lot design failings at this stage?
Seems a bit presumptuous or just manipulation of a point for the sake of enhancing your side of the argument (which we all do, so no worries there, I’m just pointing it out).
Well, of course the design is important.
And the fact that it is less centrally located will not hinder attendance.
But there are much better options for designing a solid exit structure at Arden Hills.
North Oaks, Stillwater, White Bear Lake, Lake Elmo,
much of Mounds View, Andover, Arden Hills and Shoreview. Around the lakes in Roseville. Around the expensive golf courses of Blaine and Brooklyn Park. Many areas of Forest Lake.
There is $ to the north and northeast.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
More in pockets, though.
No luck in a quick google and I have to run so I’ll check later, but if I had to make a bet I’d guess there is more money in the southern burbs.
I guess I don't have any real data either.
I was responding to what I perceived to be a blanket statement.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
West/Southwest!
Minnetonka.
Edina.
Eden Prairie.
Wayzata.
The entire shoreline of lake Mntka,…there’s $billions with that alone :)
I’m guessing all those cities mentioned have higher population than than most of the cities in the N.Metro too.
Mounds View?
Huh?
Also, other than North Oaks, most of that is pretty solidly upper middle class. None of those places are, say, Wayzata.
Much of Wayzata is very pedestrian too.
But their upper end puts all but North Oaks to shame. I will concede that point.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Some quick stats
Pulled from census data.
Median Household Income
Arden Hills: $83,750
Stillwater: $69,873
White Bear Lake: $57,232
Lake Elmo: $96,167
Mounds View: $60,259
Andover: $89,525
Shoreview: $78,990
Minnetonka: $79,720
Edina: $78,566
Eden Prairie: $93,248
Per Capita Money Income
Arden Hills: $37,918
Bloomington: $33,668
Stillwater: $36,558
White Bear Lake: $30,980
Lake Elmo: $43,556
Mounds View: $26,658
Andover: $32,327
Shoreview: $39,761
Minnetonka: $47,036
Edina: $55,618
Eden Prairie: $48,916
Median Home Value of Owner Occupied Home:
Arden Hills: $295,000
Bloomington: $240,500
Stillwater: $268,500
White Bear Lake: $224,500
Lake Elmo: $410,600
Mounds View: $210,200
Andover: $274,700
Shoreview: $256,900
Minnetonka: $324,200
Edina: $396,100
Eden Prairie: $329,900
Keep in mind that Arden Hills is quite small, entirely residential and not very dense. But I’d say the bottom line is that there are some pockets, like Andover and Lake Elmo, but they are pretty small and the south/southwest is more affluent overall.
Click the link if you want to check out other areas.
I don't think they will end up
With “Arden Hills or Bust.” I think the Wilfs will take what they can get. The question is whether they can get anything.
Good points
There are some valid points made here. I just wish that the Wilfs didn’t have the aforementioned “Arden Hills or Bust” attitude. It seems to me that they’re more concerned with a massive public subsidy for their development ambitions than trying to find a workable solution to keep the team in the state. As much as I don’t like the legislature’s stonewalling on this issue, I also don’t like the standoffish nature of of the Wilfs. They should be trying to look for any deal they can get rather than presenting a gift basket to themselves to the State Legislature in Arden Hills marked with a “Take it or leave it” tag.
The same argument can be made in reverse.
The state saying “Minneapolis or Bust”. The difference is the state should represent the entire state, not just Minneapolis. That is the same Minneapolis who sat on the side lines until forced to react to a deal negotiated in good faith with Ramsey County.
To take any deal over the best deal is not what anyone should do. Especially if that “any” deal is bad.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
How about we watch what's actually happening
And that’s the GOP leaders in the legislature saying “no” to a waiver of the referendum requirement as part of their “no taxes” pledge. That has nothing to do with Minneapolis.
The Speaker is also saying no to a special session, which also has nothing to do with Minneapolis.
Write them, call them, email them.
That is your own advice.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I figured as much.
But I decided to be a little snarky. ;-) I wish everyone did as much contact work as you do. I just wish you agreed with me on the Arden Hills site. Let’s just hope they stay in Minnesota.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
But why shouldn't they have an 'Arden Hills or Bust' attitude?
Ramsey County was the only local gernmnet that steppud up to the plate. The Minneapolis plan isn’t solidified, and the Vikings weren’t even brought in for their ideas—it was just Minneapolis saying ‘Here. This is our plan, and we really don’t care what your opinion is on the matter.’ The only Minneapolis plan I’ve seen is a new stadium on the Metrodome site that would require the Vikes to play at TCF Bank Stadium for threee years, something the Vikings have said is not possible due to the loss of revenue.
Ramsey County, on the other hand, worked with the Vikes from day one to come up with a plan that was beneficial to all parties…except Minneapolis…and that’s what the crux of the issue is.
Some people just need a high five. In the face. With a chair.
Holy crap, disregard the spelling disaster in that post
‘local government’, ‘stepped’.
Ugh. Hands can’t type faster than the thoughts today..
Some people just need a high five. In the face. With a chair.
The spelling mistakes on that post
Made this whole comment section worth throwing out.
Learn how to spell, son.
by Arif Hasan on Nov 2, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Because they have their hand out
Also, personally, I don’t know that Ramsey County was the only local government that stepped up. How willing was the team to talk to Minneapolis?
Incredibly willing.
As in multiple times went to them. Ramsey county was the only one that stepped up. Facts.
by Crosseyes on Nov 2, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fact is...
People can and will find blame where they want to place it. Im not sure why some here have this idea of Ziggy that he should not be in the buisness to make money. The NFL is all about it top to bottom seen what they make in fines per week? Point the state was informed long ago the dome does not generate enough revenue to be competitive. Ok some who have no clue will knee jerk and say how much does ziggy need. Its not Ziggy’s call end to all. The NFL and owners of all the NFL teams subsidy to make up for the short comings. I have a real bad taste for the piss poor politics in all of this and how and who they tax so forth but thats a whole nother bag of poo. I guess over all the upside is greater then the down. Whether some will ever go to a game or not. I dont have kids yet I have to pay a tax for the schools I dont use the walking or biking paths yet I pay the tax for them and up keep. so forth so forth. When you see the simple minded try and make it simple by saying “Im not letting my tax’s get raised so a bunch of greedy people can make money.” Just kills me how people will jump on the crap with smoker and tax the hell out them. Take a look at our roads! For real! I ride a Harley I definately see the lack of repair. And how much of the gas tax is to go to the roads? Someone is BSing someone adn I dont think its Ziggy. But be assured Ziggy will leave. He is not from here like the Pohlads or the Twolves owner. It does not make him a bad guy. It is what it is and our state reps were told this 10 years ago.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
They don't make ANY money in fines.
The fines go to a fund that supports retired players.
Not the new retired players, but the OLD retired players. The ones who have no health benefits and got paid pennies on the dollar compared to what they make now.
yupp ...
I realize this and should have been more clear. I only used it as they hand them out stiffly in the amounts showing that its not a low budget operation. But thank you for being spot on when I post.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
Ok, Ramsey County stepped up
Ramsey County stepped up as the prerequisite “local partner”, this much is true. However, that doesn’t make the Arden Hills deal any more or less workable than it stands right now. If a Minneapolis stadium deal has a better potential for easy passage, then the Wilfs should take what they can get rather than trying to shoehorn Arden Hills in at all costs. I’m just saying that the Wilfs would do well to dial back their development ambitions and start looking at the stark political realities that exist at the moment. I like what the Arden Hills plan has to offer, don’t get me wrong, I just see that plan meeting a big brick wall in the legislature. I want to keep the team here, but I also see lack of pragmatism on the part of the Wilfs in earnestly trying to achieve a workable deal. Again, I appreciate and understand the pro-Arden Hills sentiment. I like the site too, but it just doesn’t seem feasible in this political climate.
Comparison
Let’s look at Lucas Oil Stadium, home of the Indianapolis Colts, and what went into its building and completion in 2008:
The estimated stadium cost was $720 million. It was financed with funds raised jointly by the State of Indiana and the City of Indianapolis, with the Indianapolis Colts providing $100million. Marion County has raised taxes for food and beverage sales, auto rental taxes, innkeeper’s taxes and admission taxes for its share of the costs. Meanwhile, a small increase in food and beverage taxes in six surrounding counties and the sale of Colts license plates completes the total.
These projects (Lucas Oil Stadium and the Convention Center Phase V Expansion) are expected to create $2.25 billion in economic benefit to the state and regional economy over 10 years and create 4,200 new permanent jobs, as well as 4,900 construction jobs during the life of the projects.
The multi-purpose Stadium is be home to the NFL’s Indianapolis Colts, host for NCAA men’s and women’s Final Four® and Regional basketball games, and is used for major conventions, trade shows and events such as the annual Circle City Classic and FDIC (Fire Department Instructors Conference).
Other special events include the IHSAA tournaments, band competitions, local and national amateur competitions, motorsports, etc.
Lucas Oil Products, Inc. secured naming rights from the Colts for the Stadium at a cost of $122 million over 20 years.
If the entire state of Indiana helped raise funds for the new Colts stadium, why can’t Minnesota do the same?
by TexVike55 on Nov 2, 2011 12:42 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Someone rec this please. Great stuff.
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 2, 2011 12:58 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
we aren't the "MINNEAPOLIS VIKINGS"...
…we are the MINNESOTA VIKINGS — downtown does not have to be the epicenter of everything.
everyone knows the NE Patriots are a Boston team, yet their stadium is further away from downtown Boston than the Arden Hills site is from Minneapolis.
the Arden Hills proposal is favorable for everyone except the Minneapolis representatives who twiddled their thumbs for… seriously, how long has it been?? they don’t deserve the new stadium — now that that’s the reality and overwhelming opinion, they’re trying to screw everyone by pulling the team and the fans down with their sinking ship.
urgh, so mad and now i have to get back to work…
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
We've got the Missouri Rams and the Missouri Chiefs.
You’ve got a whole state to support one team. What’s the problem?
Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. - John Lennon
by JethroBoViking on Nov 2, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm not sure i follow...
the point i was making was that the stadium doesn’t need to be in Minneapolis.
the Met used to be in Bloomington.
i don’t see a problem with the new stadium being in Arden Hills.
just politicians on a power trip.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
What you stated made me realize that some teams are supported by cities
and others have the whole state. My “what’s the problem” was directed toward Minnesota. As in, C’mon man, get a frigin stadium deal Minnesota!
Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. - John Lennon
by JethroBoViking on Nov 2, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
ahhh i gotcha
didn’t realize how you were directing the question…!!
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
article i found on vikings.com
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/133045763.html
It’s a good read
by Lunchpail on Nov 2, 2011 2:21 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
by Lunchpail on Nov 2, 2011 2:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Your welcome : )
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 2, 2011 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Hehe thanks, forgot that pics need the tree dealio to get put on here not just the link
by Lunchpail on Nov 2, 2011 4:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I keep seeing people say do whatever it takes to get it done
unfortunately what I don’t see is anyone remaining objective and looking at both sides of the coin.
As a business owner and a Vikings fan I see both sides clearly and I really think other people should to but can’t overlook being selfish about their favorite team.
I run a business that provides actual services for the community however I don’t get taxpayer money to fund my buildings, I would never think of asking taxpayers in the immediate area or in the entire state to help fund a new business venture. So why do people think that Wilf should get those perks for an entertainment business, because when you narrow it down that’s what it is…..entertainment.
You cannot invoke the will of people who are willing to pay extra taxes on those who do not want to for a stadium. Why don’t they raise the prices on Vikings merchandise and put an additional tax on anything purchased at the stadium as well, that way those who want the deal done will be the ones paying for it.
If I decided to venture out and start a new business say such as a nightclub, should I expect all of you to help foot the bill? After all it would provide jobs for the locals and be an entertainment business……
We cannot assume the right that we know what is best for each person in the state because we want to keep a football team here, and to say we should do it at all costs is a bit immature and presumptuous.
Why should my neighbor who hates football be required to help fund a stadium for an NFL franchise? (I question his sanity for not liking football, but hey the guy has rights)
by Sixmark on Nov 2, 2011 2:25 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Couple of things
First, he should get it because that’s what the market is for sports franchises. If we don’t give it to him, someone else will. The only question is whether you want a team. If no, then fine, don’t pay for a stadium. But there is no scenario where you don’t put public money in a stadium AND you get to keep the team long term. None.
Second, you might not get help from your community, but large companies often get tax abatements to move or keep facilities in a particular community. You too may even qualify for various small business tax credits and/or subsidies. That is exactly the same thing.
As for why your neighbor should pay taxes for things he doesn’t want, well, that’s a pretty basic question about how government works. I’d bet I pay taxes for things he wants but I don’t.
by amiller92 on Nov 2, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
amiller: Your comments are spot on
but Sixmark, also think about this: How much tax base does your business generate? Anywhere near the $20m+/year that the vikings do? That’s why they can say the state should contribute.
big difference between
tax credits and funding a stadium are actually very different things and the money involved is substantially different……..now you just said:
“The only question is whether you want a team. If no, then fine, don’t pay for a stadium.”
The people that don’t want one are still stuck footing part of the bill. That is the root of the problem, and it shouldn’t be that hard to find a solution, I say if people want it so bad then those that want it should pay for it.
No, they aren't very different things
They are exactly the same thing. There is no difference between spending money and not collecting money in taxes. They are both financial transfers to the company involved. They are both subsidies.
Sure, this one is bigger than most, and maybe that’s relevant, but it doesn’t make it a “very different thing.”
As for the people who don’t want it, they get the benefits too, so it’s fair for them to pay for it. I don’t have kids, but I pay for schools, and I’m happy about it. Why? Because I’m not so stupid to think that having a population around me that lacks an education would be a good thing. I benefit from that, it’s just indirect.
The same is true for the benefit in prestige and profile from the team, to say nothing of the economic and financial benefits.
by amiller92 on Nov 2, 2011 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why don’t they raise the prices on Vikings merchandise and put an additional tax on anything purchased at the stadium as well, that way those who want the deal done will be the ones paying for it.
Because NFL rules prohibit that. That’s why all the jerseys cost the same no matter what team it’s from.
I don’t know if it’s still the case with the new CBA, but the profits from merchandise used to be split evenly between all teams.
Actually that idea has been presented
except in a more general form of all pro sports merchandise in the state. That just pissed off the other teams in the state wondering why their merchandise would contribute to the vikings.
@Sixmark - You're last question is a softball that I'm going to hit out of the mother-effing park, baby! Thanks for the easy setup!
Your answer, to the last question you asked in your post, Sixmark, is very easy:
A: Because people pay for CRAP all the time that they will never, ever use but which may benefit some segment of society. Our taxes pay for plenty of things that I could not care less about (public transportation, different programs for this and that, etc…) nor will ever, ever use. If we used your faulty reasoning, we need to go back and get a refund, then, on all the money I’ve blown paying for other people’s crapola. I figure the state owes me quite a bit in that regard.
Come back when you have a better argument…sheesh!
You are a perfect example of the
people I was talking about, can’t remain objective about anything, however you are always the first to go flying off at the mouth to someone while you hide behind the safety of a keyboard. If you can’t address a person in a civil manner and must resort to acting like a typical animal then maybe you should save your comments for the kennel.
Yawn.
And I got the expected reply from the clueless business owner – “Only I am objective, no one else can possibly have valid viewpoint [insert veiled physical threat from someone who in all likelihood can’t back it up anyway]”
Feel free to try and live by your own standards or remain the hypocrite you appear to be. Don’t come into this site, where many of us are diehard regulars and act like a jerkwad in the bizarre hopes that somehow it’ll make your skewed perspective somehow more “valid.”
I was being objective
If you read what I posted instead of what you wanted to see, you would have known that I actually support getting them a stadium, however you can’t see that beyond your ego.
I also presented some views from the other side of the coin, yep you missed that too
There is also a difference between a die hard regular and people that don’t have the time to sit on the board 24/7.
Drop the internet toughguy act, because we both know that’s what it is. The truth is you feel like I pissed in your Wheaties because you THOUGHT I am against a stadium, and now you have to try and play the part of the guy who thinks they own every forum they post on.
I could just as easily say all those things about your posts here, too.
Never felt like you pissed in my particular Wheaties – my issue is with the extremely objectionable and frankly asinine perspective that somehow no one should ever have to pay for any social project or program that doesn’t support their own direct needs. That strikes me as incredibly self-centered and to use your own term, egotistical. If it doesn’t direct help me, I shouldn’t pay for it, by your own argument.
It makes NO sense and it’s the type of argument and mindset that annoys the heck out of a LOT of us who really want to see the Stadium built for a variety of valid reasons.
This is not something to get mad over
Gov Dayton remains committed to getting a new stadium. Let’s get mad after we hear what Gov Dayton’s plan is. This is going to get done, what happens between now and then is just ugly politics.
This is a fair point.
It IS an inflammatory topic and it’s probably one that won’t be discussed terribly peacefully, all things considered. :(
I suspect that you’re probably right, too, in that it will eventually get done and we can all hopefully just laugh nervously about the fact that it WAS a close call but ended up okay in the end.
So now...
… there isn’t going to be a special session, and Dayton has placed blame away from him stating that he is ‘disappointed’ how his peers are allowing all those construction jobs to disappear, add at least $40 million to the stadium, and that this won’t be picked up until the END of the next session – so at the end of May. Sounds to me that Dayton is now thinking that the Vikings either get a very favourable deal from Minneapolis using some kind of gambling financing, or they take the team (and name) to LA.
The Wilfs bought the team after Red McCombs couldn’t get a new stadium deal sorted. As much as I want the Vikings to stay in Minnesota, Minnesota doesn’t deserve them!
by blowfishes on Nov 2, 2011 6:36 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
That is not what he said
Did you listen to what Dayton or Bagley were sayihg? ALL they did was eliminate a way to pay for the stadium. Zellers said he would not support a special session but screw him, Dayton has been pretty consistant on this and talks are still happining.
by Justine Hicks on Nov 2, 2011 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Read it on Startribune...
He said he asked them what their "Plan B" was, and said they are interested in "waiting for the regular session, a 6-month delay, another $40 million or more in additional costs."
He said, “It takes 202 to tango,” and he believes the process has slowed down. (There are 201 lawmakers in the Legislature.)
"I’m disappointed, because we were making progress, I thought, until today," he said. He said a new Vikings stadium could have produced thousands of job and "they walked away from it.
He said he planned a meeting with Vikings owner Zygi Wilf on Friday but will call it off.
He has also planned to present a stadium proposal on Monday, but now probably will not do so.
"I’m not coming forward with a plan next Monday if they’re not going to act until the end of the regular session, which will be close to May," he said.
He added: "It’s the legislators’ responsibility, the leaders, to tell the people of Minnesota, what is their plan."
by blowfishes on Nov 2, 2011 7:31 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It's not the fact of people not having the money to do it
it’s the fact that people are sitting on their money.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 2, 2011 6:49 PM CDT reply actions
Check out
How a new Vikings home could be funded
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 2, 2011 6:55 PM CDT reply actions
This is what I've been saying!
There are other options out there. Dayton is trying to put together a plan that will get passed. That is what we all want right? Who cares where this stadium gets built at this point? There are so many headllines out there just fanning the flames and distorting whats going on. In a way this is a good thing because it adds pressure to the state, but it is bad for my health because I can not read another article about Minnesota becoming Packers fans of good riddance to the Vikings. At the end of the day we just have to calm down. They were saying the same thing about the Twins for years.
by Justine Hicks on Nov 2, 2011 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I want the Vikings...
… to stay in Minnesota for the long haul. It seems that the team are not willing to accept a restricted development site in Minneapolis, which may prove unprofitable sooner rather than later like the Metrodome became. Do we really want the team to stay, only to demand a new stadium in 15 or so years because they are unable to operate as a team in the 15th leading market should be able to? Yes, the Wilfs want the real estate around the proposed new stadium in Arden Hills, but they are willing to buy it and have never stated that it has to be given to them. It is also strange how it is the government who have demanded a roof on the new stadium for ‘other’ events, something that was not required of the Twins or Gophers. This extra costing for this should not be covered by the team. This moves the team’s contribution to nearer to 45% of the required overall cost. The team have accepted to pay for the cleaning of the soil – which has to be far cleaner for restaurants and hotels, than merely for a stadium – plus all costs above the $1.1 billion estimated costs. Kurt Zellers has stated that if the team leaves then the blame is only on the Wilfs for moving the team, but let’s face it, this government has not progressed this issue over the past ten years, so why should the Wilfs have faith in them getting this sorted in 2012?
by blowfishes on Nov 2, 2011 7:49 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
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