Where I Throw Frazier Under the Bus
by CCNorsemen on Nov 15, 2011 12:08 AM CST
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Fact: The Vikings had a BYE in week 9, thus giving them 2 weeks to prepare for the GB game.
Fact: The Vikings had 10 penalties against GB for a loss of 80 yards.
Conclusion: The coaching staff is allowing the players to play undisciplined football
Fact: Leslie Frazier was a starting Cornerback for a Super Bowl winning team in the NFL as well as a highly regarded defensive coordinator for the Vikings before eventually taking over as head coach.
Fact: Asher Allen and Tyrell Johnson continue to see playing time in the Vikings secondary, despite never succeeding as "starters" on a weak secondary.
Conclusion: The coaching staff is making a mistake in playing these guys, and haven't shown that they can coach up average talent to over-perform.
Fact: Musgrave wanted to get Adrian Peterson more involved in the passing game after they found success in week 8.
Fact: Adrian Peterson recorded exactly 0 catches on 1 target during the GB game.
Conclusion: While Frazier isn't calling the plays, ultimately he's responsible for the gameplan each week, and this is a huge mistake to target Peterson only once in the passing game.
Overall Conclusion:
Leslie Frazier has the reputation as being a "player's coach", and IMO this is directly responsible for his sticking with aging veterans when they are clearly beyond their prime (McNabb, Cedric Griffen, etc). It also explains the undisciplined football we see week in and week out. The team looked completely unprepared for Green Bay, and it doesn't make any sense considering they had an extra week to prepare. How can the secondary be so bad when our head coach PLAYED CORNERBACK in the NFL? What kind of gameplan doesn't try to put the ball in Adrian Peterson's hands as much as possible, even in the receiving game? IMO, this loss falls at the feet of the head coach. I'm beginning to think that Frazier doesn't have what it takes to be a head coach. Getting blown out after a BYE week is unacceptable. I don't care who the team is, and where the game is played, losing 45-7 is unacceptable, and I put the blame squarely at the feet of Leslie Frazier.
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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I have been fighting for Frazier from the very beginning,
I’ve been a huge advocate for him. This game finally broke me. I agree with you on this. I hope he can turn it around and become a great head coach. For his sake and for ours. But for right now, I’m right there with you. It does not look like he has what it takes at this point in time.
agree, i am concerned over what seems like a lack of fire and emotion from frazier...
here are the post game presser links to show what i mean…
http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/videos/Postgame-Presser-Highlights—-1114/a5865678-b779-4855-834c-2c31db0b36d8#?id=c1548dbe-f77a-4eb7-b3b4-1b789f1d4b8c
frazier’s is all of about one minute…and he does not look like a head coach, imo.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Like he said..
They need to improve, but I’ve been hearing those same lines pretty much every week this year. It’s getting old, you shuold be building on positives and make them a key to your game plan. When you do something good, keep exploiting it, until they can stop you or beat you at what you’re doing. They are completely abandoning what has been working and trying to find new niches, which hasn’t been working. My personal opinion, we don’t need a coach to be a players coach, but one that can get under their skin, one that can bring out the best in them. When you play angry, you play better imo..
You cant
coach what is not there. And that is talent that can compete. You take what we have, not only on pass defense but all around and Dungy couldnt squeeze anymore out it. Im not saying Frazier is the guy or is not the guy but its like bitching the car doesnt do well in the snow when the problem is the tires have no tread. alot of the starters you see on this team would not start for another team.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
alot of the starters you see on this team would not start for another team
These players would be starting for Green Bay because they would have developed them into starting-caliber material, and based a scheme around what they are capable of doing. It’s football, not rocket science – if you can’t train some of the most athletic people on the planet to play it halfway competently, someone isn’t doing his job. No team is starting 22 high draft picks – at the end of the day, it takes coaching, schemes and talent development to turn average players (who make up the majority of all starters) into cogs in the machine of success. And the responsibility for that is entirely with the coach and GM.
So this is his first year as head coach, with no OTA's
and you telling me he’s supposed to be responsible immediately for turning these players into starting-caliber material? The players that Frazier drafted has yet to have enough time to be analyzed as starting caliber or not. Give it a few years. Our team is OLD
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 15, 2011 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
Pretty sure we are 10 weeks into the season
Yeah, I’d like to see some improvement.. Boohoo he didn’t have OTAs. Neither did San Francisco. They’re 6-2. Against tougher opponents.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 15, 2011 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
So it takes 10 weeks to
develop rookies into starters? That was my whole argument all along. And SF actually has a defense AND oline.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 15, 2011 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
He already has plenty of talent to work with
Ponder is developing, I understand that. Rudy is ready now.
Beyond that, there’s plenty of ability in the players, outside of the problem areas we’ve gone over, ad nauseum.
At some point, the coach has to bring everyone together as a team, create the synergy that elevates the individuals into a greater whole.
Chilly’s underling, Frazier, isn’t producing.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
It's year one people
I supposed Jimmie Johnson wasn’t producing either?
No one's calling for Frazier to be Fired
Yet [grin]
But fact is, he’s the HC and the team isn’t producing. He’ll get this year as a pass, every new coach does. Mostly. But right now, he’s on track to match Les Steckle’s record, if he can somehow managed to win another game.
I wouldn’t call it, ‘throwing Frazier under the bus’….
More like, cranking up the bus engine, and warming it up :)
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Yeah, I was just kidding.
I want to wait until Leslie and Co. has built up the roster their way before I deem them completely useless. That is, assuming that we’ll actually start making some roster moves in the future.
Player Talent
Hrmmmn, let’s see….
Adrian Peterson
Jared Allen
Percy Harvin
Visanthe Shanko
Kyle Rudolph
Michael Jenkins
Kevin Williams
Brian Robison
Chad Greenway
Antoine Winfield
That’s 10 guys who could start on most teams in the NFL. At least 4 of them could start on just about ANY team in the NFL. And that’s almost half the team, offense and defense. I didn’t get into special teams, because both our guys there are top notch.
It’s not an entire team, but it should be enough to at least be competitive and have a shot at the playoffs.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
This
This is exactly what i have said else where…we only have 10-12 true starters on either side of the ball and to many holes else where that it isnt going to be competitive.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
No offense, but Rudolph is a very raw rookie who’s made one great play and hasn’t done much else. Shiancoe is slightly above average IMO. Robison looks good but the jury is still out there. Percy would be good on most teams as a slot guy, not much else though, he just doesn’t have the size/skill set. Jenkins is a below avg WR that wouldn’t start on many teams at all.
The other guys are all very talented though and would start on many to most teams.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
maybe you should stick to the pack
Because the “jury” isn’t out on a vet like Robison. He’s a known quantity.
And Percy is much more than a slot guy on any team in the league. He’s a slot receiver plus what ever else your coordinator can come up with to give him the chance to use his unique skill set to make plays. You’re totally out to lunch.
And Rudolph has made several plays this year, and I wouldn’t describe him as “raw.” He’ll be a legit starter next year.
“He’ll be a legit starter next year” is raw…he’s not ready as a starter yet. The post said “That’s 10 guys who could start on most teams in the NFL.” He’s barely even started on your team. ITs like saying Finley is the best TE in the league. Sure the potential is there but he hasn’t earned that yet. Until he does, he’s just one of the better guys.
Percy isn’t a #1, really he’s not built to be a #2 either. He’s a great slot kind of guy who’s shifty and can make those great plays and get open. Sorry man, that is what he is. He’s a really talented slot receiver. I like Percy a lot but he is what he is man.
Regarding Robison, he’s a first year starter. He’s putting together a very nice season but he’s a first year starter. He’s a known quantity to you cause he’s on your team. I think he’s going to be pretty good for you guys though but to say he’s on the list of guys that would start on most teams is pretty presumptuous at this point in his career.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Go back to your own blog
The reason we think your opinion is bunk, is because your an outsider Packer fan, looking in. We know what we have because we see them 16 games a year, and at training camp, and we read up and down about our team. You see our team, what, twice a year? So, I’m sorry, but your opinion is worth nothing this blog.
Kyle Rudolph was the best TE in the draft last year, and is starter material for a variety of NFL teams. He isn’t starting on our team, because we have 2 solid TE in Shiancoe and Kleinsasser. But if you missed his TD yesterday, and his one-handed grab in GB last week and his myriad other amazing catches this season, then you’d agree.
Percy did perform well in the slot the past two years with a legit #1 in Sidney Rice lining up outside. Too bad we don’t have that. Oh, and he’s a pretty awesome RB too. He’s a elite playmaker in the NFL with a varied skill set, and you must not be paying attention, because our new offensive coordinator is certainly giving him a lot of different looks as he has 22 caries so far this year for a 9.1 YPC average and a rushing TD. Last year he 18 carries and the year before he had 15.
Robison is in his 5th season. He started 6 games AS A ROOKIE in 2007 as well as 2 games last year. But even more importantly, in 4 and a half seasons, he’s played in every game but one. Did you also know that he had 13.5 sacks during his first four years? But, maybe you’d know that if you were actually a fan of this team. So, yeah, I think in 4 years leading up to this one, he proved he could be a viable starter
SKOL Vikings!
When did anyone say Percy was a #1?
You said, “Percy would be good on most teams as a slot guy, not much else though, he just doesn’t have the size/skill set.”
That’s crap. As you noted when you then said, “He’s a great slot kind of guy who’s shifty and can make those great plays and get open.”
Would he “be good” or is he “great?” And do you know want to talk about all the other things that he does that make him more than “not much else” other than a "good"’ “slot guy?”
As to Rudolph, perhaps we disagree about what “raw” means. To me, “raw” means a guy needs significant improvement before he can expect much playing time. That’s not Rudolph, who could certainly be starting now if we didn’t have a superb blocking TE (Sauce) and a very good pass catching TE (Shanks) in front of him.
Apparently to you, “raw” mean “not starting at the moment.”
As to Robison, again, you sound like you don’t know what you are talking about. He’s been a regular in the pass rush rotation for years. Not starting doesn’t does make a guy an unknown, especially when the Vikings have used heavy rotation in spots not occupied by guys name “Allen” and “Kevin Williams.” Point being, Robison is known to people who are paying attention.
As to whether any of these guys “could” start on most teams in the league, you might want to note the difference between “could” and “would.” Most teams in the league would be happy if they had any of these guys as their starter. But that doesn’t mean that each of these guys would displace the starters most teams. Those are different questions. Some would and some wouldn’t.
I guess since I mentioned it
Here are the guys who I think WOULD start for any team in league:
Adrian Peterson
Jared Allen
Percy Harvin (in the slot, any maybe not for New England)
To the extent that “start” makes any sense for a guy who is more of a blocking specialist than a tight end, Jim Kleinsasser would “start” in that role for pretty much any team.
Here are the guys who I think WOULD start for most teams in the league (in addition to those above):
Shiancoe
Kevin Williams
Antoine Winfield
Hutchinson
I agree – but… Asher is garbage bitching about holding calls then gets embarrassed by jordy for the touchdown. Then tyrell steps in with the little playing time he does get and committs a blatant hands to the face call. Garbage. Jordy – what a stupid fucking name.
by tswing-AK on Nov 15, 2011 2:40 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Why are you guys throwing a fit about Asher Allen.
He’s the best corner we got we have a guy who broke his collarbone and a guy in jail. He’s #1 on the depth chart and he should be our dime back.
"Winning isn't everything but losing is nothing" - Ace Bricka coach of the Galaxy Aces
Asher was 100% correct on that assesment
"I think they see I'm white and they think I'm slow"
Christian Ponder
Coaching is overrated
I’m sure Browns fans were saying the same things about Belichick. Then, he winds up in New England, finds one of the greatest qbs of all time, and now he’s a genius. Also, in terms of the secondary, he can’t just give crappy players talent just because he played the position. Some of his calls have been pretty bad, but it’s also not like he can make his players execute them. Once the call is out, it’s up to the players to actually MAKE THE PLAY. Nobody, save for Allen and AP made any plays. We were really just man handled on every front.
First Vikings memory: age 5, crying in front of the tv with my dad after the '98 NFC championship game.
by Sburrillbowen14 on Nov 15, 2011 6:51 AM CST reply actions
Do you think Frazier is as good as Belichick?
Seriously, you’re going there?
Frazier is what he is; Chilly’s rookie underling, the defensive genius that gave us the Tampa-2 secondary and Tyrell Williams.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Also
LF can’t coach the Ref’s to make honest calls. cough Pass Interference cough
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
Agree
I don’t know how Leslie coaches this team or what practice is like but the severe lack of emotion he shows on the sideline is not something I like. I agree that alot of these guys (asher allen, Ced Griffen, FRICKEN POS THIS YEAR GREENWAY) wouldn’t even be on a roster for alot of teams and we have them trying to help this defense. It’s sad that guys like AP and Jared will get no recognition for trying to help this team because everyone else isn’t playing. The offense has too many weapons to look like this, and the defense has too many shit players to field a decent team. Come on coaches.
Uhhh, this offense? Nun uh.
The offense has too many weapons to look like this
They don’t have have enough weapons that’s why they look like this. And oh, no offensive line.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 15, 2011 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, the offense has Harvin and Peterson..
Who, apparently, can’t even be on the field the same time. They were so blatant about when they were going to run with Harvin last night.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 15, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
Doesn't matter whatsoever,
if they have no time to get a pass and no running lanes. That’s it.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
The refs where cheering the Packers this game.
Remember that extremely blatent holding that they missed to start it off that the Packers 7 points and there was an ileagle block in the back on the return. They also called three fake penalties on the Vikings disgusting.
"Winning isn't everything but losing is nothing" - Ace Bricka coach of the Galaxy Aces
I MISS CHILLY... OH MY GOD DID I SAY THAT !!!!!!
by VikinginCalifornia on Nov 15, 2011 9:48 AM CST reply actions
A new Head Coach, Coaching Staff and GM please
We now are beginning to see why Frazier was overlooked in previous interviews.
We see Mike Tomlin doing well in Pittsburgh.
I personally would be interested in maybe giving Russ Grimm a long look – a OL background and a ground game offensive mentality, matched with the best RB in the game
Give him some time...
He has a huge mess to cleanup from what the previous coach left him and he’s in his first year. He has a rookie QB, no real #1 WR, a mediocre Oline, and a D that is very weak in the secondary…give him some time to put his fingers on it. In 3 years you should be able to tell if he’s a good coach or not.
Its way to early to judge a coach
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
EXACTLY,
I think I’m in the minority here who feels that way.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 15, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed ^
Like I said there are many talented coaches out there that honestly could not do much with what we have because its so spread around on this team. Its needs in key areas, OL/WR/DB’s its just not there and so much is messed up. Its certainly not negative to see it and say it. And mg7505, please….I never said 22 top draft picks, the facts are this team like I said last year and even 09’ many here will remember me as saying the Vikes are not that great. For years they drafted for the win now in the short run, with the idea that the window was still open. Do I think you scratch every thing and start over? No but again 10 -15 positions need to be dealt with radicly and I dont see the 10-12 decent starters we have now beable to overcome the lack of support. At seasons begining die hards wanted to say we are not in rebuild mode…and even LF has never gone as far as saying those exact words but we should have been. There is certainly nothing wrong with admiting the team needs an overhaul its a start and acctualy I think it gets fans on board for looking forward to good things coming. SKOL VIKES!
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
He should have said it from the start
that they needed to rebuild, Frazier would not be taking so much heat if he hadn’t tried to sell hope this season. I understand he didn’t want to lose the veterans in the locker room but even they should have realized rebuilding was necessary. They have some really good to great players but the rest of them are below average and as the great ones have aged they can no longer carry the others.
by Simply_Greatness on Nov 18, 2011 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
but
The only crappy thing about that is that in 3 years the best players on this team may not be able to produce as well. i.e. Jared Allen and AP. Not saying you have a bad view because its not bad just pointing out that it would suck waiting that long.
It's a tough reality maybe we should trade him.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Not to be a jerk, but honestly I think the window has closed. You have a rookie QB, limited talent at WR and not a good enough D to win games on its own…I think its time to think a quick turnaround rebuild. Get some young talent in there. Maybe you could trade Jared Allen coming off a historic season!
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Maybe you could trade Jared Allen coming off a historic season!
that’s always a fun conversation at the dn…here we go again!
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
now we're talking...but, i think we need to have a t-jack conversation just to warm up.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Yes, maybe...
…but it looks like he might actually have taken a big mess and made it worse. He is responsible for having made some terrible decisions (e.g. Berrian and T. Johnson). It took him far too long to make changes there. Maybe he’s stuck with Sullivan and Loadholt because of circumstances, but I think Frazier makes his decision much too slowly. He’s also responsible for some very bizarre and costing game time decision – most noteably the field goal attempt that turned into a 4th and 1 run. Frazier looks lost at certain moments of certain games, and his team has been playing lost all year.
We shouldn’t have won the game in Carolina. There was a bogus penalty call on Newton’s final run and a missed chip shot shortly thereafter. Absent that string of amazing luck, we’d be a one win team. That’s a far worse result than the 2010 Chilly disaster…and I am not a Chilly defender by the way.
This is so depressing.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
"Decisions?"
Terrell Johnson is a backup. It’s not much of a “decision” to keep him on the roster when you haven’t got anyone else.
Berrian sucked, but it’s not like getting rid of him made them all that much better. Again, no one to replace him.
Sullivan is not as bad as people around here think. He’s not good mind you, but he isn’t so terrible he needs to get off the field this minute. I was going to do a careful scoring of his performance last night, but I don’t think I can handle watching it again. Maybe next week.
Loadholt is a mixed bag. He’s a great run blocker. The cost is terrible pass blocking. Both he and Sully can be pieces of an okay line if the other pieces are good (Sullivan need good guards on both sides, and Loadholt needs a TE in pass protection that isn’t available because the other tackle is terrible too).
Finally, um, no, the penalty on Newton’s final run wasn’t bogus. it was clearly a hold. Maybe a hold that would often be overlooked, but a hold nonetheless.
Yes, decisions.
Tyrell is not back up material, but he got even minutes with Sanford through the first quarter of the season despite sucking horribly. Maybe Tyrell stays on the roster, but he shouldn’t see the field. Bring on the rookie!
Berrian sucked for years… and shouldn’t have made the team. We are better off without him today and would have been better off earlier without him.
Regarding Sullivan, you only have to watch to the second play of the Vikings first possession to see Sullivan pull a Sullivan. After the snap, he turned to his right and let a linebacker pass rush right up the middle through the spot he vacated. The best part: Sullivan wasn’t actually doing anything useful when he left the middle of the line open. He didn’t actually touch anyone on the play. He was useless. The guards can not compensate for Sullivan and shouldn’t have to. Berger carries his own weight at center. He’s not spectacular, but he’s better than Sullivan.
Loadholt is a great run blocker if he latches onto the guy in front of him. He is not a good run blocker if he needs to move laterally as part of his assignment OR if his assignment isn’t standing right in front of him. In those instances, he pretty much performs as he does in pass protection – mostly just fine but all too often misses his assignment completely.
We’ll have to disagree about the Carolina game as well. We were gifted that win by the refs (who were awful all game) and by a kicker who somehow managed to miss the proverbial side of a barn.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Sullivan!
I don’t hear enough people complain about him.
I fully agree anybody other than Sullivan is a good thing!
This Oline went completely downhill after Birk left. I know those are tough shoes to fill, but I knew Sullivan wasn’t the guy a long time ago,,,,,I’m sure you did too. Why can’t the FO see the things we see. I will be absolutely thrilled if the Vikings draft a Center in the early rounds in the next draft.
Loadholt !
I have a hard time believing that this guy was even good in college.
If he isn’t jumping off-sides, then he’s holding…..the sad part is, he’s holding and jumping off-sides because he knows getting beat.
IDK if Loadholt is a total bust, but he’s definitely a 2nd-rd bust.
However, he’ll be around next year just because he was drafted early and the Vikings rarely trim the fat.
yes, leslie has been making some bad decisions. and they are kind of adding up.
but what bothers me more is his demeanor. at first i liked the even keel approach and the unflappable look of a guy hopped up on prozac….afterall, it was a welcome departure from chilly and his “i’m angry about my limp noodle” demeanor…but now i am concerned that he just doesn’t have anything behind that singular expression of his. i am not convinced that he has any real vision for the team and he doesn’t eem to hold himself, the coaches or the players accountable for sucking so much. i’m losing faith in the guy i was happy they hired….and fast. just don’t ask me about musgrave, i am still scratching my head there.
and, contrary to what people like to rant about…we DID get lucky at the end of the carolina game. that should have been a no call on steve smith. greenway wasn’t even going to be in the play, and that was not a hold. they got the short end, imo. and we got lucky, it was the difference between a win and a loss, imo.
hey leslie, wake up and get mad or something, show some life !!! throw a chair, or better yet, use foul language at the podium…just my 2 cents, otherwise i think you are a gonner sooner than later.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I still think I'm okay with the demeanor...
…but mostly because I’m not a big fan of shouters. That said, I am starting to wonder if the lack of a more forceful reaction also has something to do with indecision on his part. He’s had a brief head coaching career, and he’s already shown himself to be amazingly indecisive. At least the more demonstrative coaches are required to take a position in order to be demonstrative. Frazier seems like he could change his mind two times on every play and again still with the benefit of a time out thrown in for good measure.
I agree about the finish to the Carolina game…obviously.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
agreed, he doesn't really need to be the yelling type, but...
i am concerned for what i don’t see. and it appears that he doesn’t show some type of edge or focus that indicates that he has a clear vision for what he wants the team to be and the nads to hold people accountable for executing their part of the equation.
and that lack of vision thing also applies to how i perceive musgrave and spielman.
thus my confidence meter is dipping lower and lower with those guys.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
by danny lloyd on Nov 16, 2011 12:04 AM CST up reply actions
thus my confidence meter is dipping lower and lower with those guys
You’d have to be superhuman to not have this season’s record affect your confidence in this group. I was pessimistic about our season’s prospects coming into the year. I figured we’d go 6-10. I never would have believed we’d be a two win team at this point in the season, and I’m shocked at how quickly we’ve fallen off the cliff. Just like last year, it appears that it’s getting worse as the season goes on. That’s particularly depressing to me.
At least we are giving our rookie QB lots of reps. We need to be bringing other rookies onto the field as well – particularly in the defensive secondary… and maybe on the Oline as well. Frazier isn’t impressing me by not taking advantage of our miserable season and using it as a chance to see how the young guys can perform.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Keep in mind…its his first season as a HC. Has he EVER been an HC before? (asking cause I don’t know).
Honestly he’s going to make mistakes in his first year, what else would you expect. I don’t see how Berrien was a mistake…unless you mean he should have been cut in the offseason. He’s garbage, you guys are better off without him (which is why no one else has picked him up).
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
You think you can only talk about and know about your favorite team? I happen to live in MN and probably know AS much if not more about your favorite team. I may not cheer for them but I do follow them (and have a wife who is blindly loyal to them). So I throw it back to you…Why are YOU here?
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Well let's see
It’s not to throw ill-informed insults around about a team that I obviously dislike.
So I guess I have different motivations than you.
Ill informed insults? YOu are ridiculous man. What are the ill informed insults, you seem to be the only one whining here. I’ve thrown complements around all over about your team, you can focus on a piece of a comment that was negative but it shows that you are just being a baby.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Back-handed?
The only compliments I’ve seen are of the back-handed variety. I haven’t seen any real thoughtful fan commentary from you yet. Maybe you should stick to the Acme Packing Company where you obviously belong.
SKOL Vikings!
Hmmm.
he’s going to make mistakes in his first year, what else would you expect
I expect a head coach to be ready to be a head coach. I expect him to be better than other available options. I expect more than he’s been able to offer which isn’t to say that I expect him to be mistake free.
I don’t see how Berrien was a mistake…unless you mean he should have been cut in the offseason.
Bingo.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Again, its his first year…there is ALWAYS a learning curve. Heck a LOT of us over in Packer land didn’t like McCarthy early on (myself included). He made some really poor coaching decisions that had me wondering what Thompson was thinking. He came into his own and won me over though, now there aren’t many I would trade him for. Give him time to grow into the starting coach job.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Learning Curve
Give him time to grow into the starting coach job.
If it were up to me, I wouldn’t give him any extra time at all. But then, I was never in favor of Les Frazier, I wanted to see the Vikings go out and get someone with a proven track record. I don’t want to give ANY coach an opportunity to learn at the expense of the team. Clearly, Frazier wasn’t ready to be a Head Coach yet.
The thing is, Trevor, and maybe this is just my opinion, but I feel that there’s far too much talent on the team to accept a 2-8 record. I’m not saying that I expect them to have won every game, or be in the running for the Super Bowl, but 2-8 is ridiculous. Yes, it could be worse. Just barely.
Now it seems we’re pretty much stuck on this path, at least for now.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
"He has a huge mess to cleanup from what the previous coach left him"
Oh give me a break! Why do people insist on judging Minnesota coaches on how much they like them as a person and their personality? Haven’t you figured it out yet, EVERYTHING WAS NOT CHILDRESS’ FAULT. Plus, it doesn’t even make sense that you blame it on what the previous coach left Frazier with when Spielman and the rest of those bozos are still just as much running the show.
by Wu on Nov 15, 2011 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
I didn’t say everything was Childress’s fault but last time I checked he was part of that triangle of authority thing though and he had a pretty big hand in the decisions made (Moss in, Moss out, bringing Favre back, Oline declining, overall talent)
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Yes, blame it all on the previous administration
Sounds so familiar…
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
…was that veiled political comment? :-)
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
I can't answer that question
It’s above my pay grade :)
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
I blame our breakdown on the 2005 draft.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 15, 2011 10:29 AM CST reply actions
Yep that makes perfect sense
blame it all on Mike Tice.
"Winning isn't everything but losing is nothing" - Ace Bricka coach of the Galaxy Aces
Didn't Les Steckel
get the boots after going 3-13?
"I saw a wino eating grapes and I was like, dude, you have to wait!" - Mitch Hedberg
How can it be a "mistake" to play guys
when you don’t have anyone to replace them with?
Also, in what world is Ced “aging?” Ailing maybe, but he isn’t an old player. If you want to call Hutch, Winfield and K-Sauce aging, fine, but that’s about it among the guys who are playing now (i.e., McNabb’s aging but not on the field). And those are among their best players.
I’m also not sure how the head coach, whatever position he used to play, is supposed to make the guys in the secondary not suck.
Free Agency? Rookies?
Seriously, if you don’t agree that Asher Allen and Tyrell Johnson are the worst players on defense in our secondary, then we’re obviously watching different games. There have been at least 2 high profile guys released by other teams in recent weeks that would be major upgrades to our secondary that we passed on. We’ve got rookies on the team that, at the very least, wouldn’t look any worse. There are options.
Isn’t that a coaches job? To take athletic players and coach them to “not suck”? Isn’t that the minimum? Teach them the scheme by any means necessary, coach them to play to their utmost potential and then some, and if they still can’t hack it, find someone else that can.
SKOL Vikings!
They're terrible
But Allen’s supposed to be the dime back, a role that he’s suitable for, and Tyrell’s supposed to be a backup.
Yes, they both should be replaced, but there are only so many dollars available in the budget, and only so many draft picks. And both of those solutions should be the front office’s job, not the coach’s alone.
As for guys being release by other teams, I’m for picking up some help (especially now that Winfield is gone), but let’s not pretend that these are great players. They are being released after all.
As for whether the rookies who aren’t playing “wouldn’t look any worse,” I don’t know that, and, frankly, I doubt you do either. Sure, I’d like to see them out there to get a look at them, but given that they aren’t out there, my guess is they probably aren’t tearing things up in practice.
And no, the even the best coach cannot take a player who isn’t physically or mentally capable of doing the job and make them “not suck.” That’s why talent evaluation is so important.
allen is supposed to be a solid cornerback, and tyrell is supposed to be a veteran starter.
those guys are products of leslie frazier’s drafting and tutledge…and they really stink, imo.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I don't know how much Frazier had to do with the drafting
Do you?
As for “supposed” I was referring to the thinking behind still having them on the team now, not what they should have been based on their draft status. Neither guy is on the roster this year because they were expected to start.
i would guess he had a say in who they drafted at d-back...
he was the defensive coordinator in 2008 when tyrell johnson was drafted and was a d-backs coach prior to that and a former d-back himself. tyrell johnson was the starter because of leslie frazier. and let’s not forget that madieu williams was back there too. asher allen was a starter last year and is supposed to be more than just a dime back. he is afterall a starter on an nfl roster at cornerback, because of injuries and frazier.
like it or not, although he is the “new head coach”, he is directly linked to the last coaching staff, spielman and the draft and development of those players. he is now the head coach, and his players are not performing well for him.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
by danny lloyd on Nov 16, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I would guess that too
But it’s just a guess. I’m certain he wasn’t the one with the final decision.
And yes, Johnson started because he was better than the terrible Williams. But Asher was only a starter because of injury.
But this really amounts to a complaint that we didnt’ solve all of our problems with off season.
Perhaps it’s news, but that really wasn’t possible.
we need a real general manager, imo.
and we probably could have avoided the mess that chilly, spielman and co. produced.
oh yea, and that whole salary cap thing….more poor planning. we were handcuffed because the fo went for the short term swing at the fence.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
by danny lloyd on Nov 16, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Frustrated
They both should be in the UFL. Frasier was with the Vikings last season and should’ve had a list of all the dead weight in one hand and an axe in the other waiting to deliver the cut as soon as the CBA was ratified. I’m sick and tired of waiting for the GM, head coach, or whoever makes the player personnel decisions to actually do their job. Allen, Johnson, Sanford, Berrian, Abdullah,Sullivan,and Herrarra should not have been on this team when the season started. Spending the first two draft picks on offense when no one in your secondary can cover at all, in a division with three very good QB’s; defense should have been first priority. Okay we knew going in they wanted a QB, I’ll give them that; but a TE in the second? Couple that with the Gerhardt pick the year before what am I missing here. Spielman needes to stop trying to out think the room and just make simple and sound football moves. Everyone knew McNabb was washed up, he got ran out of two cities in the same amount of years,all the while Hasselback showed in a playoff game last season that he still could play, ( Tennessee is loving him by the way)but we gave another draft pick away for another player who is way pass his prime. Did we not learn anything from the Moss debacle last year. O-Line has been bad for years, secondary since Dungy headed to Florida,WR’s are awful. Remember when the Vikes had players like Cris Carter, Jake Reed, Quadry Ismail, and Randy Moss? Memories!!! I would settle for Matthew Hatchette right about now. My kid wore his Adrian Peterson jersey to school Tuesday came home and told me that the big boys were saying that the Vikings were sorry and he didn’t ever want to wear it again, understand he is 5yo and in kindergarten very impressionable. He then turns around and asks me who are the Titans and can he have a Titan’s jersey like all of his friends. : ( Thank you front office as if I didnt have to put up with ignorant Titans fans outside of my home now my kid wants to be one. Really!!! Well if there is a silver lining here at least he doesn’t like the Cowboys. Thank you God.
by memphis viking on Nov 16, 2011 12:30 AM CST up reply actions
You can't cut all the dying limbs off at once
You have to have a roster of 53 guys, and the ones you have are cheaper than the ones you can replace them with. And Sullivan and Herrera are not great players, but they aren’t guys who should be out of the league.
But I agree that Gerhart and Rudolf are strange picks.
Also, Ismail wasn’t called “lobster arms” for nothing.
When a kid is wearing an Adrian Peterson jersey...
…he doesn’t have to feel bad in the presence of a Titan’s Chris Johnson fan. Help your boy set those big kid fools straight. Next time send him to school with the jersey AND a plastic helmet with horns and one of those long fake white beards. If those Tennessee fools don’t think he’s Amish, they’ll think rocking!
Skol Vikings!
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Let's review strategy
Offensively
AP, perhaps the most dangerous offensive player around, gets 14 touches, including after we had to switch to a passing attack, due to, uh, that little thing called the SCORE, which we don’t seem to know much about this year.
Harvin, a close second and the the fastest guy on the team who can run over most safeties like a truck, once again gets to go deep zero times (and he’s the only downfield guy who could punish the punisher, Mr. Woodson). Yeah, I know, many will argue that he’s more of a slot receiver. But they are wrong. He is speed and strength personified and can create a mismatch for anyone down the field. Why would you shoot your own team in the foot by not stretching the field with someone of Harvin’s caliber? It would be like using Randy Moss for a tight end. That is clearly not what God intended him to be, and we have Peterson, Shiancoe, Jenkins, Kleinsasser, Gerhardt, none of them slouches, for the short game.
Jenkins, someone with excellent hands, gets 3 catches but is not in the game on many offensive sets, leaving Green Bay free to load the Box, stuff the middle, and completely shut down any hope and prayer of either a running game or a short to mid passing game. Woodson delights in this and shreds us.
Shiancoe, who should have starred last night due to ability to catch quick passes in blitz situations, was sent on 25 yard routes up the field on many plays.
As a matter of fact, we sent receivers into cornerback territory all night, rather than at the safeties. It’s almost like Frazier wants to disrespect Corners of Woodson’s caliber in order to make some apparent fantasy of a point that he knows how to take advantage of corners.
Gerhardt and Kleinsasser are rarely kept in the game to block for Ponder, and it takes all of two seconds for Green Bay to figure out that there will be no one home to pick up the blitzes and bull rushes on dang near every passing play (not much of an exaggeration)
Defensively
Kleinsasser is credited with one tackle, which is equal to the number Sanford, Robison, Guion, Henderson, and Ayodele had. Which is also just one fewer than KWill, Ballard, & Onatolu.
Maybe I’m wrong on this, since I was starting to drink myself into oblivion after listening and watching Gruden and company order so many engagement rings at Zales for Rodgers to actually comment on the defensive breakdowns much, so I couldn’t watch the game closely, but I believe we were in Cover 2 Tampa zone defense all of the night. Other teams know we use this and rarely mix it up and go with man, cover 6, or anything else. They have figured out how to capitalize, and we gave up 45 points. Tampa was great when it debuted, but it is now nearly 20 years old and virtually all teams can pull plays out of their playbook to take advantage of it. And Green Bay has a bazillion plays to take advantage of it.
by liveforadrenaline on Nov 15, 2011 1:53 PM CST reply actions
+1
I mean, my god, we play the Packers twice EVERY YEAR. Don’t you think you could have figured out what works and what doesn’t by now? Clearly the GB coaches have us figured out….I can’t believe our coaches didn’t have them figured out.
SKOL Vikings!
Yea, maybe if we had the same coaching staff every year...
Did you forget we have a new HC, new OC and new DC this year?
Are you serious?
What do you think the HC, OC, and DC have been doing their entire lives before this year, living in a cave?
Either way, did you forget of the existence of previous game film?
by Wu on Nov 15, 2011 7:19 PM CST up reply actions
No,
But CCnorsemen stated he thought we could figure out what works and what doesn’t by now.
Studying previous game film gives you an idea into the teams tendencies and what their weaknesses are, but it does not tell you how your current roster can work towards exploiting those weaknesses. The coaches and the team are still feeling each other out, as it were.
well, san francisco has a new hc, dc, oc and whole new coaching staff...
they sucked last year, and look at where they are at now, with the same players as last year.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Yep...
And San Francisco has something to do with Minnesota how?
They play in the NFC west and have to compete with the Cards, Seahawks and Rams. That is a bit different than the Packers, Lions and Bears. Other than divisional opponents, they have played Dallas, Cincy, Philly, TB, Detroit and Cleveland and the Giants. All teams that are VERY inconsistent, save for Cincy.
They also have more talent on both sides of the ball.
You can’t compare them to the Vikings.
i commented directly to your comment...which is specifically about new coaching staff.
CCN said: we play the Packers twice EVERY YEAR. Don’t you think you could have figured out what works and what doesn’t by now? Clearly the GB coaches have us figured out….I can’t believe our coaches didn’t have them figured out.
Bjorno replied: Yea, maybe if we had the same coaching staff every year… Did you forget we have a new HC, new OC and new DC this year?
both teams were 6-10 last year. both teams have a brand new coaching staff…
except our new head coach was the defensive coordinator for 3 years before taking over head coach…last year. so their is significant continuity on the vikes staff.
meanwhile, the niners got a whole new coaching staff that are all new blood to the organization (except a few minor position coaches), and they did so in a lock out year.
that is a much bigger difference/challenge than the vikes’ coaching change.
so, of these two 6-10 teams…the niners are now 8-1 while the vikes are 2-7…yep.
the niners have only played one divisional game so far this year, so the point you made about their easier division is not really a factor at this point in the season.
your reasoning can be compared to a very similar situation with the niners, but we have two very different outcomes. and we are the one’s sucking, while the niners are sailing.
also, if we do have a new coaching staff and off. system, then the packers staff would have to figure out a new team and system just as much as a new coach would have to figure out how to play the packers….and leslie has been doing this on defense for 4 years now…yet we gave up 45 points in our second meeting with them this year.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
True
I realized after I typed it up that they have only played one divisional opponent, which is why I included the other teams they played. If you look at the list of the teams they beat, almost every one of them is so inconsistent this year you never know which one will show up, the good or the bad.
Another point is that most of our games were close and against opponents who were playing very well at the time we met them. If we get one more bounce, or one more penalty to our benefit in those games and we could very easily be 8-2. The only two blowouts were at the Bears and at the Packers.
If you look at the Packers. they also put up 40+ on the Chargers, Saint and Denver; so having the Packers do the same to us in Lambeau is not a reason for us to point the finger at Frazier. You can point that finger squarely on Chris Cook and the rest of our secondary save for Antoine.
And like I said in another post, the Packers don’t need to figure us out. They know our secondary is bad and we would be trying to prevent the big play. So they used basic logic and took what we gave them underneath. There was no “figuring us out” in that situation.
As far as us figuring out the Packers… that is something that cannot really be done to the point of even slowing them down with the roster we have.
Yeah the HC seems to have hit the ground running in San Fran, but keep in mind, a quick start doesn’t mean it will hold. Remember Spagnolo in Miami? He went from like 1 win to the playoffs, how does he look now??
Give your coach 3 years and then evaluate.
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
And by that logic...
Then how could GB have figured US out??? We have a new HC, OC and DC this year! Everything is new, so there’s no way that GB could have possibly….oh…I don’t know…studied game film, have players that have played against the same players for years, thereby knowing each other’s tendencies. There is no excuse for poor coaching at week 10 of the season, especially after a BYE week.
SKOL Vikings!
They didn't so much figure us out...
they simply played better football.
Or did you forget that they are the best team in the league right now?
Other than the lack of touches for AP, our offense put up what I would have expected from them in this game.
Percy went sort of deep once... called for offensive pass interference,
but once is not enough to stretch a defense. Still, everyone needs some amount of success to develop rhythm… coaches and players. Our mistakes made it damn hard for that to happen.
We can blame coaching all day but our players stunk it up in every phase. Ultimately that is also the coaches’ fault, but don’t sugar-coat the fact that the overwhelming majority of our athletes sucked hard at their profession last night. Honestly, they should be embarrassed and ashamed. The worst testimony for Frazier is the sad fact that so many of them seem to have already quit on the season.
yes people have to realize this.
Take of the purple glasses, it’s a weakness of his and he needs to work on it.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
But it is fixable, or at least, remediable
Strength training and coaching can straighten it out, and either put him into this natural scope or teach him how to get more power into his throws.
I’d like to see if Farve can be brought in for a couple weeks to work with Ponder.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
I agree it can be fixed
And many QB’s do fine without a solid deep ball. As for Favre showing him how it’s done I would rather not I get the feeling he’s more of a go by the seat of your pants natural athlete. Give me someone who figured the deep ball out later in their career and have them teach Ponder.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I was thinking more about throwing mechanics and strength
Favre’s always had a cannon-arm, right up to the end. I think he might be able to show Ponder how to strengthen that wrist and arm up, and improve his mechanics action.
Ponder’s accuracy seems to drastically off as he goes deeper with the ball, but I bear in mind that he’s still a rook and he’s still getting his timing down with our receivers, too. Even a rainbow can be made to land in the right spot, in-stride.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
The problem with a rainbow is there's a pot of gold at the bottom of it and everyone wants to get it...
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I always got the sense
That Favre’s game was mostly about natural ability. He can just do it, both physically and mentally.
I don’t know if Favre if the guy I want showing my rookie how to play. He really is all about instinct and raw talent. He’s not a coach type. Most coaches cringe at a lot of the things he does but he got the job done so what are you going to do!
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
Strength and Accuracy
That’s really most of what I was thinking about, with Favre. Athough any looks he can offer in the video room would be nice, I was thinking more of the mechanics of the throw.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
well its somewhat fixable…he’s never going to be a bomber like some QBs but he can certainly improve the accuracy he has at his current distances and stretch it a little. He’s young, he’s still got some strength to build I am sure too…
The Green Bay Packers...Putting bad coaches out of their misery since 2010
right
I was wondering about why the hell they were sending the Wr so deep when Ponder wasn’t getting the time to throw. Where were the quick slants Wr screens? We knew GB was going to do nothing but blitz, why didn’t our coaching staff? I could be wrong, but it sure looked like the middle of the field (3-5 yds out) was open due to the blitzes. PR and Shaianco should have been used to punish GB until they backed off.
I’m not calling for LF to be fired, but I do think it’s valid to ask what the hell he’s thinking.
However, Musgrave should be fired.
"I think they see I'm white and they think I'm slow"
Christian Ponder
There were at least a few times
When the problem calling pressure was the QB. It on him to deal with the blitzing corner by getting rid of it quick and/or calling an audible to take advantage of the defense’s weakness.
My friend and I were screaming saying the same thing.
I was calling for screens and dumps to the flats all night.
They tried using AD on a screen early in the game, but they totally gave up on it after it didn’t work the first time.
The Vikings just needed to get on the other side of the blitz one or two times, and that would’ve opened things up for them a little bit…imo!
With that said. It didn’t help that Ponder played like shit last night too.
He was definitely rattled….can’t stare-down the WR like that!
We lost to the Packers, in a rebuilding year.
Why is everyone panicking?
The penalties are concerning, but when you get people on a team trying to do anything they can to win a game, they are going to make mistakes. Not to mention the fact that a few of those penalties against us were complete and utter BS.
You want to know why our secondary is bad? It’s because our secondary is bad. No amount of coaching can turn 3rd string DB’s into something that can stop GREEN BAY’S passing attack.
by Bjorno on Nov 15, 2011 5:30 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I'm told by reliable sources
That any mediocre middle school coach can teach athletic players up to the top levels of the NFL.
(or in other words, I agree)
is that what your 7th grade football coach told you? ;) <<< joking, joking.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I'd like to see us really treating it like a rebuilding year at this point in the season
We continue to play guys who won’t be around next year. I’d like to see the rookies playing in the secondary consistently. We need to see what they’ve got. They might be horrible, but we know that T. Johnson is horrible and Allen Asher isn’t all that good either. In my view, I’d rather give a horrible rookie their reps at this point in the season.
Same goes for Fusco. Either put him on the line at guard and move Berger to center or put Fusco at center and keep Berger at guard. I’d prefer to see the former over the latter, but I’m okay either way really. We shouldn’t be playing bad veterans at this point in the season.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
13 games
That’s how long Frazier has been head coach. 13 games. With a brand new OC, DC, offensive scheme, basically a brand new coaching hierarchy.
Yes, i’m aware that the Niners are 8-1 and they have a new HC too but we aren’t the Niners. Why are they successful now? I dunno. Maybe Singeletary left them in better shape than Chilly left us.
Point is, our roster is in sorry shape without any real depth to it at key positions. I maintain this is largely on Childress but that’s irrelevant to this particular post. Doesn’t matter who’s fault it is, it’s Frazier’s reality. At this point in the season, his hands are largely tied with only other teams practice squads and whats left in free agency to draw personnel from. He’s not going to dump Johnson, Allen, whoever at this point (Yes, i’m aware I said they should do this in a prior post, that was mostly satirical but it would be awesome if he actually droppped them mid-season) because they’re all we have left.
Come the off-season though, that’s a different story. If Allen, Johnson, etc don’t walk out of the locker room with pink slips in hand after the season ends, well, Frazier’s in denial. At which point, i’ll drive the damn bus.
If Allen, Johnson, etc don’t walk out of the locker room with pink slips in hand after the season ends, well, Frazier’s in denial. At which point, i’ll drive the damn bus.
Someone somewhere is likely going to hold you to that. :-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Try 15 games
He was interim head coach for the final 6 games of 2010, and has been HC of the Viking since January 3rd, 2011, and therefore the first 9 games in 2011. His record after 15 games as a HC in the NFL is 5-10. If he doesn’t win next week against Oakland, then he will have performed worse than Brad Childress in his first 16 games. Think about that.
True, he has never had a real off-season, and he took over somebody else’s team mid-year, last year so I’m willing to give him a pass there. I’m not calling for him to be fired. But I am calling him out for the loss to GB. This is a lost season, and if we don’t see significant progress in 2012, then I’m not sure how much longer I’m willing to wait for Frazier to develop into an NFL head coach. I hope that Monday Night’s game is more an anomaly in his preparation and development for a game against GB, rather than the rule.
SKOL Vikings!
Think about this also
Capers blitzed us about 60% that’s way more than he blitzed anyone else all year. Now he was able to do this to us because our team is fundamentally awful.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
awfuller than 2 games ago too.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
by danny lloyd on Nov 16, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
and we had 2 weeks to get ready for that beat down....while they had only 1 week.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
by danny lloyd on Nov 16, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
yeah but we didn't expect the blitz packages
Capers out coached us, he could because we didn’t have the personnel to stop their blitzes. We game planed for one thing Capers came out with another. Hard to imagine when the Vikes are more the one trick poney.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
i did....seems pretty obvious considering the scouting report on ponder.
and his relative inexperience…and that super awesome blitz pick we do.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Yeah I was worried about someone just sending the kitchen sink at him
like we did with Vick last year. To bad our line is so bad we can’t even slow down the sprinting line backers. I really enjoyed the sack where three Packers all landed on him at the same time…
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
And it wasn't just our O-line that didn't do the blitz pick up...
…it was also the best running back in the NFL.
sigh
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
AP certainly missed a few
Specifically the fumble that he was in perfect position to recover because he completely whiffed on Clay Matthews.
I was surprised
the first time we played them because i thought they would throw the kitchen sink at Ponder to watch his head spin, they must have figured they could take it easy and then after the first game was close decided they should. Hopefully Ponder learns from it because I’m sure other teams will try the same.
by Simply_Greatness on Nov 18, 2011 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
Ok I had written a two page article in response to this but it seems a bit much
We cut a lot of people this off season who were not up to snuff, but were expensive. We have back ups for them that are also not up to snuff, we are currently playing rookies in teh secondary not because they are good but because we are running out of other player. One more CB injury and we’ll be popping people off of practice squads to get into the nickel. Winfield’s injury, Griffens knees, and Cooks legal issues just can’t be laid on Frazier and our secondary is complete crap right now because of it. Think about it Asher Allen is the guy we have guarding their top receiver.. ASHER FREAKEN ALLEN!
Other parts of the team EJ’s knee, Ayodeles suck (who might be laid at Fraziers feet) McKinnie, Hererra, our lines age and inexperience not much of that is on Frazier. We have a rookie QB but honestly I’m happy about that even if the Pack did blitz him into a coma yesterday hell at least we’re moving forward some where.
Yes you can say we got out coached, but we also got completely out played. Our players are not as good as their players are. Period. If you took Madden, Gruden, Bellicheck and Harbaugh out of San Fran we’d still be a cup of crap.
I think right now the only thing I really blame Frazier for is not realizing how bad off this team truly is. This is a project that is going to require a full and complete rebuild, and I don’t think it’s going to take less than three years to do it.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Yes we're bad, but...
I get that we have injuries and legal issues in the secondary that takes out our 3 best cornerbacks. I get that our O-line is old and banged up, but here is what I DO blame Frazier for:
Safety: we’ve been weak at safety ever since Darren Sharper left in 2008. When it was obvious that Madieu Williams wasn’t getting it done last year, this was a major need that wasn’t addressed, and since Frazier was the DC during all of that before becoming the HC, this is on him.
D-Line: Remi Ayodele as a replacement for Pat Williams is on him.
O-Line: Is he to blame for McKinnie showing up to camp out of shape? No, but he cut him (rightly so), and then signed Charlie Johnson as a replacement. Charlie Johnson has been terrible, arguably below league average. That’s on him. Giving Herrera a shot after a major injury is on him. Herrera has been league average at best, and arguably worse. Yes, we drafted some young O-linemen, but they’ve only seen playing time in the face of injury. Frazier is at the very least, partially to blame for our having awful players on the O-line
LB: Letting Ben Leber walk was a mistake. It’s the only thing that can explain how mediocre the unit looks….either that, or Singletary was a bad hire. Either way, it falls on Frazier
WR: We let Sidney Rice walk, and signed Michael Jenkins when there were plenty of high-profile replacements we could have signed or drafted. This is on Frazier.
I agree we’re bad, but how different was the team on Monday night compared to the team we had 3 weeks ago? Chris Cook was the only difference, right? Is he that much of a difference-maker on defense to explain the additional 18 points GB scored the 2nd time around? What about the complete lack offense? We had largely the same 2 teams, and dramatically different results. You can point to Chris Cook, or home field advantage, but I’d suggest it was coaching and preparation. And again, with a BYE week to work with, it’s unacceptable to get blown out like that. Yes our team is bad, but we put up a fight 3 weeks ago and almost pulled off a win. Why couldn’t we have done the same on Monday night?
SKOL Vikings!
Remi was on him I'll buy that.
Charlie Johnson was a replacement for Hererra when we thought he wasn’t going to start the season. When McKinnie bit it and we had no cap room I’m not certain how Frazier could have handled that better. So that nails both of your o line issues. As for the rest of the players he was at best part of that coaching staff on the defensive side, I doubt he is responsible and to add to that he did fire the old O Line coach.
Leber was old we all knew he was old, EJ and Erin might have been able to this but then EJ came up spade in the knee and Brinkley who might have spelled him was out for the year. Why Greenway is playing average is anyones guess, but honestly I didn’t see anyone here upset about Singleterry’s hire. So I’ll say injuries are the worst thing we can say for our lb’s, that and no effective back up drafted for Leber.
WR. Ok I’m pretty sure I saw our cap numbers were over the limit when we had McKinney, we tossed his lard ass and we were still over. Berrian took a cut and we reshuffled things a bit. We didn’t have a lot of cash to throw around man, we sure couldn’t afford Rice nor do I think he’s worth the price he got. Frazier had no where to go and no money to work with he got a bunch of interesting players to try and help out and wiffed on a couple and made one work. Remember last year what our receivers looked like with Favre throwing? McKinnie as tackle? Honestly, our receivers look better this year than last. (well until Rice came back and even then he dropped a brick ton).
Ok I’m not saying that we didn’t get out coached. I will say this when you face the same team twice in the same season you better come up with some new stuff because they’ve seen the old. To bad we don’t even have enough for the original show, so trying to go above and beyond that was impossible.
I’ll just say this when Asher Allen is the guy we are covering their lead receiver with we’re doomed. When Musgrave has an extra blocker on pass protect 60% of the time and we still are getting crushed we extra doomed with a side order of curley screwed.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
A few corrections
Frazier was at least smart enough to get rid of Madieu Williams, and they drafted a d-back.
Charlie Johnson wasn’t signed to be McKinnie’s replacement. He was signed for line depth before McKinnie was cut and got thrown into that spot. He’s bad, and way below league average (btw, when did league average become “terrible?”), but he’s got tossed into a bad situation.
Hererra: again, since when is league average not acceptable?
I guess I agree on Leber, but I’m not sure it’a a major mistake, but mostly because Leber turned out to be cheaper than expected. We decided to go younger and cheaper, and Erin Henderson’s actually been okay.
I really don’t have any idea how anyone has an opinion on the linebackers coach.
WR: Yeah, Sidney wasn’t worth his price. And there just weren’t good value replacements available. We could have overspent on someone who isn’t very good, I guess, but it’s weird to complain that we didn’t. Especially as Jenkins has been quite good at very good value.
But overall, really, why do people seem to expect Frazier to have fixed all of our personnel problems in one off season? There are improvements to be made. He’s made some of them, but he doesn’t have a magic wand to make it all happen at once.
But overall, really, why do people seem to expect Frazier to have fixed all of our personnel problems in one off season?
i don’t think they do, i think this is what you are interpretting from all of this. the bigger point here is questioning whether he has what it takes to be a head coach. that is a whole lot more than just a personnel issue. there is a lot of inconsistent play and the team does not seem to be inspired or executing well.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
I don't know if you can look at one without looking at the other.
It’s like saying it doesn’t matter what building materials you have if you have a good enough architect. Sure he could probably work something out with tongue dispensers and bubble gum, but let’s see what he can do building a home out of ice cubes in the Sahara.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
yea, but he still has to get these guys ready to play and have a vision to instill.
but i’m starting to think that he might not have the head coaching intangibles. he might, but we had 2 weeks to prepare for a team that we played a couple of weeks ago, and our guys just fell apart. his post game presser really has me concerned. he kind of looks blank and uninspired. that is going to permeate the whole team, imo.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Didn't see the presser and I agree there was a lack of planning
I personally didn’t understand why he veered away from Peterson as soon as he did in the first half. Honestly though my bigger concern right now (since the season is toast) is how badly we’ve done in the drafts in the past. I think that will be our biggest need to fix.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
...
Again, I’m not calling for Frazier to be fired, but I am placing blame at his feet where warranted. But if we’re making corrections, here are some more.
Charlie Johnson was in fact, signed as McKinnie’s replacement. While you’re correct that the order of events was 1)sign Charlie Johnson 2)Cut McKinnie, that doesn’t make Johnson a backup necessarily. Look at the timeline. McKinnie showed up to camp out of shape first. They weren’t going to cut McKinnie before a replacement was signed. Once Charlie Johnson was signed, it took all of 1 day for them to cut McKinnie. That Johnson was signed as McKinnie’s replacement, not as his backup.
WR: Jenkins is “quite good”? Really? He’s a very good #3 WR masquerading as a #1. He has great hands and is a good possession receiver, but nothing more. We needed a legitimate #1 WR, the likes of Vincent Jackson, Plaxico Burress, Sidney Rice or Santonio Holmes (who were all free agents last year). We went the cheap route, and it’s showing.
I don’t expect Frazier to have made a super bowl contender after a pathetic 2010 season, but I stand by my expectations that we shouldn’t have gotten blown out. Frazier has never admitted this is a rebuidling year, and that’s what he’s selling the fans and players, then he better deliver. So far, we’ve what we’ve got is a far cry from his press conference back on July 31st:
“Q: The move for Donovan McNabb is for right now. How much do you hope that your players take that message, that there is no rebuilding this season?
A: I think the players that know me and are familiar with me, they’re not surprised by this move. They know how important it is from my standpoint that we look at this business, this season as a new season and the fact that we’re in the hunt. I don’t think most of our guys that have been here are surprised. When we sit down and talk tonight, I’ll reiterate the fact that we’re not in a rebuilding mode. I don’t think any of those guys believe that anyway and they’re looking forward to competing for the NFC North Championship."
SKOL Vikings!
You have to remember that Johnson actually was hired
when Hererra was still battling back from his preseason injury. So I think it can be safely said that he was either a replacement or back up for Hererra.
Honestly no one likes getting blown out, and not blaming the coaching staff at all would be silly. Obviously they had something to do with that heap of vomit that was left on the field Monday night. I just don’t think we should be surprised when terribad things happen to a terribad team.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
i think they might have known they were going to get rid of mckinnie.
when they brought johnson in for a look, like he was a quick fix. and once they got him signed sealed and delivered, then they cut ties with mcwhatzhisface.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Can we get an edit button? Seriously...
Sorry about that post, it’s filled with mistakes…sigh…
SKOL Vikings!
Um, no
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I thought Johnson was signed before McKinnie reported to camp.
And yes, quite good for the price. Jenkins has been better than I expected, and he fit the budget. And “great hands and is a good possession receiver” is an incredibly valuable thing to have on your team.
There is this thing called the salary cap, you know.
We needed a #2
We had two good guys in the slot, Harvin and Camy behind him, filling the #3.
But with Rice gone, we needed a possession guy. Jenkins fits the bill.That took care of the #2 position, and it was a good move.
The crime was keeping Berrian as a #1, whenever everyone and their grandmother knew the man has no business on a football field. They had multiple chances to go get a #1 for the same, or less money, than Berrian was making, and they didn’t. That’s on LF.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Not sure I'd give Cammy a "good"
But I hear what you are saying.
Berrian restructured his contract, so they decided to give him another shot. It didn’t work, and I certainly would have cut him in the off season at his old price, but I see where they were coming from.
Camarillo
I’m not totally sure either, but it seems like the guy catches everything that’s thrown his way. The question would be, is he getting open on a regular basis? That’s what I’m not sure about.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Les is More!
At this point in the season, back In 1984, rookie Head Coach Les Steckel, promoted from within the Vikings coaching staff ranks, had coached the Minnesota Vikings to a 3-9 record. When the season ended, Steckel was asked to resign. He refused, so he was fired.
Now, almost 30 years later, a new Les is on the scene, a Les for a New Millenium.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
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