The Vikings Future, We Don't Rebuild, We Reload
by BleedPurple60 on Nov 4, 2011 1:36 PM CDT
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PrintHaving followed the Vikings since 1970, from the infamous Purple People Eaters to now. One thing is definate Ziggy wants to win ! While living in Saint Joseph, Mo a few years ago and Jared Allen had irked KC long enough, I honestly jumped for joy and disbelief they let him go to us.
On the other side Minnesota had seem to be a place where quarterbacks went to finish their careers, we know Jeff George, Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and of course No drama Brett. We lived with some success but alot of agony. Now we have Christian Ponder who now seems to breath hope of success rather quickly in our future, as a rookie he is poised and unfazed by the transition. A defense that needs to get healthy and alittle help in the secondary, honestly we are 1 to 2 players away from Elite Caliber Status.
Now fellow Viking fans the officials in the state government do not speak for us the fans, they have their own agenda. Do we need to Occupy the State Capital to get our point across, There are Viking fans around the world and we must let them know, we won't let them go and We Don't Rebuild, We Reload !
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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Two Things
Sir, with all do respect, I would like to point out two things to you.
The Vikings are in the same boat that the Colts are in this season, the Buccaneers were in 2008, the Eagles were in 2007, the Chiefs were in 2007, and the Packers were in 2005- old teams that needed to be torn down and rebuilt.
Second, this is not 1999. Teams can’t be turned around in five minutes like it was back in the 90’s. Championship caliber teams must be carefully crafted through the draft over the course of time and by time I mean years. I understand that the Bengals are 6-2 and the 49ers are 7-1 but as it has been obviously pointed out all over the sports media, the schedules for these two teams have not been exactly daunting. However, their upcoming schedules are and nobody is taking either one of these two teams seriously nor are they considered contenders.
The 49ers had a weak schedule?
Cowboys, Eagles, Bengals, Bucs, Lions are 5 of the 8 teams they faced. I disagree that the 49ers aren’t being taken seriously or are contenders – their rush defense is getting a lot of defense in particular.
Better argument for the Bengals, who have a good win (Bills) as and one bad loss. Still, with a top defense (no. 4), they’ve improved significantly, despite who they’ve faced.
Not to undermine your overall point; I agree that it takes longer to rebuild teams than it did in the past. The 49ers, I think, are a team that were mismanaged with a few talent problems, not giant holes. I think the discussion is more about teams with talent holes or aging problems. In which case, the argument that it takes lot longer than it used to in order to get a championship team is a good one.
I wouldn’t exactly take the Cowboys, Bengals, Bucs, and the early season version of the Eagles seriously. The point I was making is that three of the 49ers next six or seven games(I cant remember exactly what it is) are against the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens so what I was saying is that I think they are going to come back to earth a little in the upcoming weeks.
On the other hand, it is about to get very ugly for the Bengals. Their next five games- the Steelers, the Browns, the Ravens, the Steelers again, and then the Texans.
Thank you for your respectful comments though.
by Timothy Bryce on Nov 7, 2011 7:27 PM CST up reply actions
Here's my argument
Pick our two positions of arguably greatest need and replace them with the best at their position. Swap Charlie Johnson for Joe Thomas and Jamarca Sanford for Troy Polamalu. What do we have? A gaping hole opposite Troy, an incredibly weak corner back team, mediocre linebackers and receivers (excluding Percy), no viable started next to Kevin Williams at DT and a porous interior offensive line. Unfortunately we are not 1-2 players away from elite status. Timothy Bryce’s argument about building through the draft is right on point, and with a few good drafts (and perhaps trading some veterans a year to early rather than a year too late), we can reach that elite status again.
I do appreciate the purple-colored glasses view though :)
Good/Elite players
elevate average player’s game as well. What did we have in 2009 when we was elite that we don’t have now? I’d say 3rd down RB for offense and an average line, and that’s about it. It’s pretty much the same team. But that just strikes my point, if we had Joe Thomas, how much better would that make Adrian? Which would make Christians game way easier? If we had Troy, how much more would that make the CB’s jobs? Even the linebackers can benefit. We may be in rebuilding mode, but I’d like to think we’re on the border of rebuild and good.
☠★☪Creator of http://skolnation.co.cc and dedicated DN reader.
by UnBannedVikingholic on Nov 9, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
WHAT?
You can not be serious, 1 to 2 players away from Elite Caliber Status? We are seriously
10 to 15 players out and definately 3 years out of the play offs and thats be nice if we see no major injurees to key players.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
Really? 10 to 15?
Seems a little extreme. A #1 WR to stretch the field and let PErcy back into the slot and Jenkins to be the #2 sure-handed guy, and the offense is clicking alot better. Some changes will need to be done to the O-line obviously. A LT would be nice so we can push Johnson over to G. That makes the offense respectable at the least.
Defense is a little more complicated, but Jared Allen helps to cover some of the deffencies. We replace EJ with a better cover MLB, get a starting-quality CB to start opposite Cook and leave Winfield in the slot, and we should be okay on defense. They can do fairly well as is if they have time to rest. It won’t make us SB favorites, but we can be contenders with a few pieces added.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 8, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
contenders is one thing
But in the original post up top “Elite Caliber,” if you really look at this team as it is now and losing a few here and there and what we need for starters and back ups yep 10 to 15,
10 would do it and another 5 that are not fillers to back up key spots. If you look at the team and its starters now (players that play in and out game time). We prolly have 10-12 between offense and defense that are not iffy or questionable. That means another 10 – 12 that would round out 11 on O and 11 on D with some good back ups. Im not talking about super stars at each spot just solid no question marks of why that guy is on the field. Im looking at it over all. The team we have now is not strong enough that when the offense struggles the defense will come through. And the same is true the other way around. Special teams is goping to do it. Course my view of contending is yeah you drop a few games that were close because of that flukie “12 man on the field play” yet you are never blown out. and you can play and be successful when having to play catch up. Now “Elite Caliber” as was the phrase, you bust out with the lead your scoring 28 to 35 points a game and holding “good”
teams to 17-21 points a game. So yah 10 -15 :)
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
It might help if you thought about exactly who you would replace
But 10-15 is way high. The changes that Revenge4Kluwe laid out probably nets a 10+ win team. One can argue that is good enough for “Elite Caliber,” or you could just argue over what Elite Caliber means.
velvet, i agree about "elite caliber team" status...
we have too many non-playmakers and mediocre guys to even be considered good, much less solid…and definately not elite. i see elite teams as those who have put together a solid roster on both sides of the ball and have established good systems in place….and that the players fit that system, and that they can reasonably be considered perennial division champions and garner 10 wins in an off year. we aren’t anything like that.
we are still reeling from the mess that has been created by short sighted planning and an attempt to take the big swing at the pinata with favre. and the coaching staff we have is still obviously treading uncharteed waters in their first half season at the helm.
i think what you are saying about 10-15 players shy of a solid roster is true. i take it to mean that we need to amp up the quality level of the team overall…and i think you are right, we need to find better talent at several positions in order to be competitive, much less solid….and we are still far short of elite at that point, imo.
offense players to replace / need:
charlie johnson
john sullivan
anthony herrera
phil loadholt
offensive line – solid back up
offensive line – solid back up
wide receiver #1- stud go to guy
wide receiver – playmaker back up
quarterback – verdict is still out
defense players to replace / need:
remi ayodele
e.j. henderson – (we need a stud here, sorry e.j.)
kevin williams – (might need replacing soon?)
linebacker – solid back up / future stud
antoine winfield – will need replacing soon
jamarca sanford
husain abdullah
cedric griffen
tyrell johnson
i think this means that we need to get a solid young group in there at o-line and stop screwing around.
and i think this means that we need to get a solid group of playmaking guys in the defensive backfield and stop screwing around there as well.
and i think we need to get 3-4 guys who can be serious playmakers and difference makers where we currently don’t have that on our current roster. mainly, wide receiver (cuz percy should be in the slot), middle linebacker (we need a guy like patrick willis, imo),
defensive backfield (we need a shutdown corner to cut the field in half, and an assasin at safety to hurt people), (and antoine is getting long in the tooth, that is just fact).
that list above has 16 guys listed (not including the qb situation) that fit the idea of your suggestion.
i’m sure there are other versions of such a list that would be just as valid, but about the same length.
i think that represents the concept of distributing talent across the roster on both sides of the ball and not relying on having 2 super stars that are surrounded by a hodge-podge group that varies in talent across the board. i think we have a ways to go to be “elite caliber”. but, that’s just my take on it.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Agree and..
Good break down on the players for sure and needs for sure for those that need the details.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
You forgot zombie reanimated Vince Lombardi
And you are double counting. Charlie Johnson, for example, is either the replacement for Herrera or the solid back up. Same thing in the defensive backfield.
Also, if you’re going to have KWill on your list as someone who needs replacing (keep in mind we are talking about next year), why isn’t your number 53?
We don't have a backup tackle, in my opinion
Johnson is naturally a guard and so is Herrera. Sullivan can be a swing player and Loadholt … is inconsistent at best.
So, I would say from that list, get rid of one of the solid backup for the offensive line in our “need” list and replace it with Sullivan, who can play center or guard. Cut or trade the rest.
I would also say that we don’t really need a playmaker backup for wide receiver if we also get a #1 – we’ll have Aromashodu and Camarillo as 4s and 5s, but it wouldn’t hurt to draft here, I suppose. Really, it’s a position of “luxury” not need, in my opinion.
Rotate EJ to backup linebacker while we draft or buy a stud LB to work with Erin and Greenway/Brinkley. We can figure out the other linebacker later.
Otherwise I absolutely agree with the list. I think we can be an elite caliber team if we are missing one or two of those pieces, but other than what I said, those are generally positions of need. If we had one more solid CB and rotated winfield to nickel, then also grabbed a solid safety to work with whoever wins the Abdullah/Sanford battle (probably Abdullah), then we can really focus on those other positions and still be a top-caliber team. Even if we ignored DT for a little bit.
Look at Green Bay, New England, and last year’s Colts. They are all elite with major holes on one side of the ball. We just need to figure out the positions that are most important and schemes that mask our weaknesses.
velvet touch said "10-15" guys...so i made a rough list that hits 16 guys.
so i said that i agree with his general assessment. the backup positions i listed mean that i think we need a new guy on the roster to fill that slot. that means that i didn’t think anyone on our roster would fill that slot.
p.s. k wiliams i put a “?” next to because he seems to be sliding. but he has a plantar faciitis, so he might rebound. regardless, he will need replacing sometime.
p.p.s. and no, we are not talking about next year…that is something you are trying to slide into the conversation to justify your sarcasm. we are not an elite team, and we have a ways to go to get there, including getting better players…that is the convo here.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
by danny lloyd on Nov 10, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
You're missing the offensive and deffensive lines
Might be able to play with Ayodale there but honestly we do need some offensive linemen if we’re going to be competitive.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Honestly it all depends on Ponder
If he’s the next Payton Manning then next year we’ll win the super bowl… Just look at how far they have fallen just losing one person…. However, I’m not banking on him being a Brady or a Manning so I think we’ll need some more help.
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Thank you all for your respectful comments. The general overall point I am making is that if you look at the serious contenders- the Packers, Giants, Saints, Falcons, Patriots, Steelers, and Ravens, what do they all have in common? They may have had a few free agent signings such as Michael Turner of the Falcons, and Drew Brees of the Saints, but for the most part they have been carefully crafted through the draft over the course of time.
Well
To be completely fair (you’ll notice I like to nit-pick), the Colts and the Patriots did well with Free Agents and in fact have quite a few on their roster. They just tend to be undrafted free agents and not the big name signings that fans are always excited about. And of course the Colts are… shall we say … floundering. Also, the Texans are leading the AFC South, and I attribute that to free agent signings in their secondary… and Manning.
Everyone else listed above is correct, even if you count the Giants/Chargers/Saints QB debacle (That was one debacle, right?).
So aside from tweaks, draft strategies are best for long term success. The question is, are we a team that is terrible because of tweaks (BleedPurple60) or seriously behind (Velvetouch)?
I would say that we’re somewhere in the middle, but Velvetouch is closer to correct. We have holes in our OL (with the price of tackles these days, I’m happy with the draft process for this), WR (the size of next years free agent market for wide receivers should make this a buyers market – I’d prefer that to be in free agency), and secondary (super cheap in the draft, extremely variable by season in the free market, but apparently expensive this season). We also have aging questions on our DL (I hear this isn’t a good class for drafting DLs, and they go for less on the market than OLs… so maybe) and odd performance valleys in our LBs (Greenway, really? Erin Henderson has been nothing short of fantastic, however). I have obviously listed a number of positions, but I’m thinking the fastest (not most sustainable) way to get out of this slump is to trade Loadholt for a low pick and free up cap space (he has more than a year left, I think. If not, choose not to re-sign him), sign a free agent RT who is passable, draft a star LT, sign a FA WR, draft a DL and test the market for LBs. That should put us on track to do well maybe not next season, but possibly the season after.
Also, we can always sign someone from the Packers. I like our success rate with that.
Undrafted Free Agents count as building through the draft.
by Timothy Bryce on Nov 8, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
I can get behind that
For a lot of teams, UDFAs are a part of their draft strategy (take that LB from Boston College… whatshisname) and are just waiting to offer some of these players training camp invites. I think that’s true for a lot of the teams you mentioned above and the Colts.
For the Patriots, that is a little less true – they tend to snipe UDFAs from other squads (some say to grab playbooks) and will also play the normal trade-and-grab game as well (being good on both sides of it). See: Moss, Welker, Woodhead, Deion Branch pt. II (the revenge), Dan Connolly, Shaun Ellis, Ninkovich, Arrington, etc. But they also primarily build through the draft and first order on UDFAs.
Buh, now I just have to agree with you. This sucks.
COUGH Mark Herzlich COUGH
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and shit them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Nov 9, 2011 8:46 AM CST up reply actions
Your own observations suggest a different conclusion
Erin Henderson has been nothing short of fantastic, however.??? Who’d a thunk? Where did HE come from??
Mustn’t you acknowledge that, at least sometimes, it takes a few years for a draft pcik to blossom into a really good starter? How can y’all be so sure how close the Vikes are to being elite-calibre once again (as we clearly were in 2009) with so many players on the roster now who could very well bloom into elite players? Eg:
Ponder
Brinkley
Ballard
Griffen
Cook (ugh…)
Sherels
Rudolph
Gerhart
Raymond
Love
Fusco
Even Loadholt, DeGuere, Johnson and Robison could end up being okay (or in Robison’s case, even better than okay).
Agree with Grime that Ponder is the most important variable, here. But there are many others as well. Not every draft pick reveals his boom/bust colors immediately.
What we do know is that we still have plenty of Big Dogs already in the lineup — although a few are reaching the end of the line soon (Winfield, Hutch, Kleinsassar, KWill). AD, Harvin, Allen — you can build a winner around them if Ponder pans out.
TiggerSr
My view
If we had Joe Thomas and Troy Polamalu now, and Ponder had a year under his belt with receivers and Musgrave, we would be elite now. Maybe not at level the Packers are playing at right now, but on par with everyone else. Have you seen how mediocre the Ravens’ offense is?
Ponder is the key.
TiggerSr
Why trade Loadholt?
He’s probably our best Run-blocking O-lineman. We’re always going to be more of a running team with Peterson. Trading him for a low round pick seems kind of counter-intuitive.
We get a good LT in the draft, kick Johnson to guard, and the O-line will be better. If we can get that actual deep-threat WR Berrian was supposed to be in FA, it will also help out the offense. A starting CB in the 2nd round would also go a long way to helping out the defense, because Griffin isn’t getting it done at all, and Winfield is starting to shift more into our nickleback.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Nov 8, 2011 6:50 PM CST up reply actions
He is our best run blocking O Lineman
He’s one of the best in the league, actually.
But that’s not good enough, in my opinion. I want someone who doesn’t commit stupid penalties or boof it on pass protection. He’s conversely one of the worst pass blockers in the league, giving up 24 QB pressures (hits, hurries, and sacks) including 5 sacks in 8 games. The average tackle in the league has given up 3 sacks in as many snaps and 17 total pressures.
As it is a passing league, I’d prefer good pass blockers to good run blockers. If we had an average pass blocker and a slightly below average run blocker, I’d be fine and consider it an upgrade.
CB over DT?
I’m sort of torn on this right now actually on whether I want to be keep our front seven solid or start to focus on the back side more….
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Heck yeah
In my opinion, DT is well down the list of needs (LT, CB, WR, S, RG, and then maybe DT or MLB). We’re in pretty good shape on three of four spots. The nose isn’t great, but the combination of Ayodole/Guion against the run and Everson Griffen against the pass is enough to hold things down while address bigger needs elsewhere.
I understand what you're saying
but most of our pass defense in the past has come from the D line disrupting the passer. This works pretty well if done right but we’re not collapsing the pocket very well anymore and I think it’s because they can doubt Kevin and the rest of the DT’s are serviceable at best.
If we want to start defending the pass more with our DB’s we’re going to need to replace an awful lot of them…
Putting Ponder in isn't the question, it's the answer.
Yupp ^
you need a team once they have the pieces to really gel. Example: 09’ remember seeing
on the news, the Vikes in the locker room led by Farve singing “pants on the ground.”
That was Chicago back when they did the super bowl shuffle. Its that uncoachable tangent that truely good solid teams develope out of ? …….being assured winners with each other. thats why I still believe starting Ponder from the get go would have been benificial. He brings winning with him. (Hi Bjorn) I’ll say it again Look at Dalton in cinci not over the top not flashy but he has that it and it spreads.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
Temporal quality
I see the same kind of hard-to-desribe/intangible type of thing we often call “team chemistry” as playing a huge role in the success and failure of sports teams (and in other areas as well). To some extent, you have to guard against tautological thinking — the chemistry must be there because that is how they win (or the winning causes thje behavioral displays we perceive as team chemistry and not vice-versa).
But I don;t think it is always just a function of a certain player having “it” and another not having “it.” Sometimes, I think it is temporal in nature — the confluence of many numerous and sometimes unknown variables — the “gelling” people refer to. It can come and go, and often we don’t know why. it is temporal. The Vikes had “it” in 2009, but not 2010.
The Mavericks had all the key players for years, but did not “gel” into the best team in the NBA (by far) until last year. Why was that? Did Dirk suddenly acquire the “it” factor?
TiggerSr
Yupp also..
I guess the “it” of one player, I prolly should have said that in alot of cases a player in his groove and performing at peak tends to raise the play of those around him.
I agree on the coming and going. Its something I think if you try to manifest it it eludes you. In the music buisness of bands its called “in the pocket” when all members are in thier elment playing in the moment without thought. Not sure on Dirk I dont keep up the hoops, but im sure good question.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
stadium
um just a thought most teams in the NFL don’t have daunting rosters. The formula is simpler than that key players in key positions – good game plans- line play is crucial – and last you must have a stadium rock on purple and gold. P. S. Packers %##k
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