Vikings Thinking of Switching To a 3-4?
According to this source the Vikings might be thinking dropping Pagac as defensive coordinator and switching to a 3-4 defense. The biggest problem with this would probably be Allen making the switch to OLB. I don't think that's going to happen.
In that case we can probably trade him to team that is trying to make a playoff push and is willing to cough up a first and second rounder for him. The player that would benefit most from the switch would be Everson Griffen. He would thrive in a 3-4 as the LOLB.
This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.
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I raise you
Hell no
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
I'm going all in
Ohh, hell naw
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
I'll match that
Over my dead body you are!
"Winning isn't everything but losing is nothing" - Ace Bricka coach of the Galaxy Aces
I Triple Dog Dare You.......
Hell F&@king no way in D%$n hell in a hand basket.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
by VikesFaninNM on Dec 16, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
I'm playing on credit now
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
Lloyd!
You CAN’T triple stamp a double stamp!
by viking_#28 on Dec 16, 2011 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I owe 3 loan sharks for this but
I’d rather have this happen to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQts7E1FvrE&feature=related
and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2_tJIgfnDA
and possibly this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ8weCjgGpk
than the Vikings switch to a 3-4
"Winning isn't everything but losing is nothing" - Ace Bricka coach of the Galaxy Aces
by FFXVIKE on Dec 16, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I read this too
I don’t believe it. Frazier will keep the same old defense, but probably fire Pagac. Hopefully Singetary gets the ax too.
by christian220896 on Dec 16, 2011 11:31 AM CST reply actions
I definetly agree that it's not a good idea
They definitely need to get rid of Pagac though. I’d like to see us get Del Rio to replace him.
I'll give him one thing
it must be hard to continue to find things to write about in a season like this one. This article is an example of “reaching” for something news-worthy. This defense needs to be built around Jared Allen. Jared Allen is a 4-3 defensive end. Period.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
He's a very talented and knowledgable writer.
I read this the other day and I love how they are already planting the seeds of Singletary not being the right pick for DC. I’d like to see a different person there as well and the names mentioned (Del Rio or Spags) I’d like to see.
Oh man,
if we could get Spags, that would be awesome. He absolutely rocked it with the Giants’ O-line back during that superbowl victory. With that being the strength of our team defensively, I’d definitely prefer we get him over Singletary.
Although the 49’er’s D wasn’t bad under him. And he finally make Vernon Gholston into a good TE. Maybe he can make Griffin/Allen into good CBs!
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
.. lol yes
That is who I meant. This is why there should only be one Vernon in the league.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
I haven't read much from him before
But he lost some credibility for me with this nonsense.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Perhaps you are not reading him correctly. He is not advocating a switch to a 3-4 defense.
He seems to have his finger on the pulse of the vikings more than any other writer out there. It seems to me that he is reporting the scuttle-butt on what he is hearing about a potential change to the defensive coaching personnel and a rumor about a possible swith to a 3-4.
I don’t see how he would lose any credibility for being straight forward about what he has heard, what he is speculating and what is fact. I think he is way ahead of anyone else who tries to write about the vikes. Give him a try, you might see what I am getting at. he is also good on twitter.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Agreed, when it comes to accurate information he's the best out there right now.
He’s routinely the first guy to report roster changes on twitter and when he does speculate based on his sources the information is often proven correct. Yes he does report rumors, but his rumors always seem to be based on solid inside info. Might be the only guy on ESPN I really trust anymore : )
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't say he's advocating for the switch
Although that would be more credible in my opinion because at least I could chalk that up to his opinion on how to improve the defense.
The actual switch to the 3-4 defense just seems highly unlikely considering the personnel of the team and the philosophy of the head coach. Now if the story were about a potential change to the old bear 46 defense, that I might buy.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
oh and NMVike doesn't tweet
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
i don't either. i read them online at 1500espn.com when i read the articles.
also, he only reported what he heard from team sources about their support for a switch. really nothing more than that. i can’t see what is wrong with that.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I'd like to know who those "sources" are
But as of right now I simply don’t buy it. We don’t have a NT. We barely have 1 MLB. The best player on the defense is having a career year at 4-3 DE. It just makes absolutely no sense at all.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
To be fair he doesn't think it's likely, just that there are some people in the building that have suggested it.
I don’t see it happening either as long as Frazier and Allen are around but it’s interesting that at least some people in the organization have talked about it. To me the most interesting thing in his article is the part about the DB’s ignoring Pagac’s blitz and man coverage calls because they were so ill-timed. I also wonder if that’s really an indictment of Pagac’s schemes or whether the players just weren’t confident in executing what he asked of them. Some of Frazier’s comments about Cedric indicated that Griffin has lost his confidence so much so that he won’t play anything other than off-zone because he’s scared of being embarrassed. Man our secondary is a Cluster**** this year.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 7:09 PM CST up reply actions
add in the comments that Benny Sapp made just days after he arrived
And I think you have no choice but to get rid of Pagac.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
I think they were sort of forced to go with him this season
I don’t recall too many names that buzzed during the offseason, and with Wilf having to pay Childress’ salary, I don’t think he wanted to add in an expensive option.
Now if we can just lure in Spagnulo..
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 8:40 PM CST up reply actions
Well..
given how incohesive the unit has played, I’m starting to wonder what would happen if they HAD followed his plays as he called them. I mean, all those times the CB drops off expecting a safety to be there and he isn’t?
Freelancing on the field certainly isn’t helping anything, and it makes them look bad now that its come to light. I mean how teams are going to want to spend money on these guys once they get cut, knowing they won’t always follow the plays called if they think they know better?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
That’s why I made the comment that it’s hard to say whether the fault lies with a bad scheme from Pagac or the players for not being able or willing to execute his scheme. Either way it’s a bad situation when players ignore their defensive coordinator and freelance on the field. Not sure who to blame for the secondaries problems but these types of problems have to be fixed.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 9:09 PM CST up reply actions
It makes me wonder, in past seasons,
how prevalent this was as well..
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 10:47 PM CST up reply actions
I have no idea but I bet we would've heard at least some rumors if this was commonplace for the Vikings.
Actually, now that I think about it there were the rumors that Favre, Percy, and Moss ignored Childress and changed his calls. I hope it hasn’t happened that often but it’s a fair question to be asked, and this could be a byproduct of the TOA where there isn’t a single man at the top to hold them accountable. Scary thoughts.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
But seriously
If we go to the 3-4 we will have the worst defense in the NFL next year. The only reason there isn’t a TD pass on every single play is because of Jared Allen coming off the edge and being disruptive. For this scheme to have any success in Minnesota, we’d have to trade JA for a couple LB’s and a safety.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 1:02 PM CST reply actions
I do not think it could be worse than our D this year
The only way this would be possible though is if they are going to clean house on defense. We would need a big NT, would move Kwill to one of the DE. That would make JA and Griffen our pass rushing LBs and Greenway and henderson would be the run stoppin ILBs. Honestly it might work better than what we have now.
It won’t
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions
I agree. at first i don't like the idea. But we are hurting at linebacker right now.
The following is just to entertain this idea before being knee jerk about it.
Jared Allen is actually good in pass coverage, remember that interception earlier in the year?
Also, Everson Griffen is extremely athletic and has been a gunner this year. I think he can probably cover a lot of ground, that could equate to being decent in pass coverage. We know he can rush the passer.
I actually think that line up of linebackers you listed would be pretty interesting. Plus, Erin Henderson and Jasper Brinkley would make great back-ups who can rotate in and out. I think the linebackers could be a pretty versatile group with that personnel.
The question of the front line seems a little different. I think Kevin Williams could make the transition to 3-4 de because he has the size and also the athleticism. He came into the league and played de to start out. That is where he racked up a lot of his sack total. I actually like guion and think that he could play the other de. But i think we might need a sure fire nose tackle to really anchor the line. Perhaps there is a good 3-4 nose tackle that we could pick up via trade or free agency?
Also, where does this leave Robison? I don’t know. He isn’t really big enough to play de in a 3-4, and I really don’t know if he would make a good olb. but he is a pass rushing specialist, and he would no doubt be able to get snaps like he did last year. I am sure that there could be some 4-3 packages to sprinkle into the mix as well, just to keep the opposing offense guessing. Maybe he is trade bait.
I guess the really big question this raises for me is WHAT ABOUT THE SECONDARY?
Because I actually think that the front seven has been doing a pretty good job of it, and that the defensive backs are the main liability on defense. We obviously need a change with that unit, be it coaching, play calling, personnel and scheme. The front seven have been covering for them.
One thing that stood out in the Pellisero article is that he quoted some of the d-backs as saying that they were complaining about the playcalling within the first month and were ignoring the coach’s calls and calling their own coverage in the defensive huddle. That can’t be a good thing ever. I guess I would expect to hear discussion of possibly changing up the cover-2 / tampa-2 scheme since we are getting killed so much and because it seems that we really need new personnel in the defensive backfield, so we could target guys that fit a different scheme in the process.
Lastly, I think Pellisero is right when he says that Pagac is as good as gone. But I really don’t want to thrust Singletary into a Defensive Coordinator position. He really handled things poory in San Francisco, and doesn’t get the blame he deserves for that fiasco. He made really questionable decisions with his qb situation and I think showed that he had trouble controlling and leading his team. If this defense has trouble playing the coverages that the defensive coordinator is calling, I might be a bit concerned that it could repeat with a guy like Singletary at the defensive helm. I could be wrong, I am only speculating.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
"Good in pass coverage??"
There is a big difference between occasionally dropping into a zone during a zone blitz and actually having to run with the TE or RB in coverage regularly.
I have no idea whether Allen is good in coverage. I’ve never seen him have to play it. Maybe, but based on his body type and what he does, I’m worried about his hips and his footwork.
I do not like Guion as an end (or as anything other than a backup tackle in the 4-3 for that matter), and certainly wouldn’t put him out there ahead of Robison or Ballard under any circumstances. Ballard seems like he could fit the bill though.
But you’re absolutely right that we would need a big, plugging nose tackle if we were to switch, and we don’t have that guy right now (KWill is probably the closest, and he played there on the few plays of 3-4 this week).
Yea, I forgot Ballard. He looks pretty solid and would be good for a 3-4 de.
I am only trying to dissect the possible logic to the rumor. I am mostly concerned with the defensive coordinator spot, and the secondary personnel. And, I am leary of Singletary.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Going 3-4 is the worst thing we can do to our defense
because of the secondary. Disruption of the QB directly relates to his performance, and with only 3 lineman rushing consistently, our corners will get burned consistently.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
Our corners get burned consistently as it is.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
That's not a valid argument
That’s like saying “this piss really stinks, but it’s keeping me warm.”
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 4:19 PM CST up reply actions
well that was uncalled for.
you seem to be implying that a 3-4 defense won’t be rushing the passer. but that is not really the case. maybe read up on it a little.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
See below, and I know what a 3-4 is…
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, with a 3-4 defense
there is usually 4-5 defenders rushing. like in GB, mathews blitzes more than he stays in coverage. most of the time 1 of the 2 OLBs is sent on a blitz in the 3-4
I don't think 3-4 means less of a rush
Or at least it doesn’t have to. It’s just rush from different places.
it’s vastly different for the dlinemen and the linebackers, but there are still plenty of opportunities for pressure.
I know
But Allen would not be blitzing every single down, which is less pressure. There would be the exact same opportunities for creating pressure in a 3-4 than in the 4-3, and Allen would rush every defensive snap. I fail to see the argument here, especially since Allen’s coverage skills are defined by a single down lol
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
he doesn't blitz every down as it is.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I may be a bit ignorant about this,
but how does Allen not rush the quarterback every down unless there’s a run play called? Explain, if you will.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
He could drop into coverage sometimes
As he does.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
How often though really?
maybe three or four times a game?
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
That's probably all he would drop back in the 3-4.
He’d be a pass rushing specialist. I think if Mario Williams could go from a 4-3 end to a 3-4 OLB, especially with him being 6’6" and 280 some pounds, and have success before the injury, Jared Allen could do it. Williams didn’t have much pass coverage experience. Probably less than Allen does. But again, he didn’t drop back into coverage very much. Honestly, I think with Allen, they could have it so that the only difference is, he doesn’t play with his hand on the ground. Maybe drop back one or two times more than he does.
What you're missing, though,
isn’t the opportunity for creating pressure. That’s not the point of the 3-4. Its to disguise who’s coming at the QB. So, yes, the pressure will be the same, the corners will get burned the same, but with a 3-4, hopefully, the offense has more difficult adjusting to the defensive call because they won’t always know for certain who’s coming at them from the LB position.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
Ahh, that makes sense
The adjustment process might take longer than one off-season though, and I think that our defensive problems can be fixed better and faster by changing our players instead of the system.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 7:07 PM CST up reply actions
Depends on the 3-4 scheme used.
If they switched to Wade Phillips version of the 3-4 Allen would still be rushing 80-90% of the time. There are some other 3-4 schemes that Allen’s talent would be wasted in though.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 7:12 PM CST up reply actions
amiller92, here is a video of the interception play i was refering to. it's fun to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJIQXua-CjM
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Keep in mind
That they actually played at least three downs last week with a 3-4, with Allen, KWill and Robison as the linemen and Griffin as the extra backer.
I think Grif can cover his role, and I think that personnel is fine for the occasional change up, but it’s really a waist of Allen to make him play two gaps instead of just rushing off the edge.
This ^
We’ll remain a 4-3 team but I think we’ll see more 3-4 packages inserted on occasion as a change-up and a way to get all of our talented D-lineman onto the field more often.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
I agree that we should not switch
but if we did it would not inhibit allens ability to get to the QB. Look at how Ware plays for the cowboys, he was a DE in college. if anything rushing from the OLB spot actually pads the sack totals
was it a true 3-4?
Or was it more of a dime package/prevent defense with only 3 guys rushing? There’s a big difference.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Looked like true 3-4 to me
With Griffen in as the fourth backer.
in the detroit game?
Cuz I didnt see it. Course my internet stream sucked that day, but still…
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Yup
Unfortunately, I tossed my notes, in which I had included exactly when it was, but here’s what I said about it in the stock market thread:
Finally, the 3-4. So, some around here have been advocating a switch to 3-4. You got it today on at least three plays. Twice (on the same drive) at the beginning of the second quarter you got Brian Robison, Jared Allen (aka Gerald) and Kevin Williams in the down line positions, and Everson Griffin as the extra linebacker and it seemed to work. They went back to it again with 6:38 to go in the fourth, but Detroit converted. I don’t really know what I think about it, but the formation was interesting to see.
I think I remember reading that
But I was probably still dumbfounded by the way the game ended to comment on it.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
weren't the vikings using griffen at linebacker earlier in the year?
i thought it was after jasper brinkley’s injury.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
They were
I think it was more of a ‘lets find some way to get this kid on the field’ thing though. Now why can’t they do that with Webb more often?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
Well, if Ponder faulters again or gets hurt, then Webb will go in sooner than later.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 16, 2011 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
Hey
your user names are the same.
"Winning isn't everything but losing is nothing" - Ace Bricka coach of the Galaxy Aces
except it only works for Kluwe because that's his number
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
The one good thing about
getting D-Mac :D
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 8:43 PM CST up reply actions
You're correct.
If memory serves they’ve also put him at DT on some passing downs as well as putting him as a gunner on special teams. I’d like to see him rotate in for Robison more often to get him on the field more and because I think Robison can be more effective when he’s got less of a workload.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 7:18 PM CST up reply actions
After seeing more this week
Think I was wrong. This week when the played with 3 down linemen it was a nickel package.
That's why
they’d probably be better off trading Allen as much as I hate to say it.
We won't be going to a 3-4
So….
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 2:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
So when can we officially start saying:
“Brains! Braaaaiinnnnns!” when we see this thread continue to pop up? MN has too much history as a 4-3 team and our head coach is a 4-3 guy. He’s a rookie head coach so he probably isn’t going anywhere for at least like 2 more years. HC coaches system stays until he’s told to do otherwise from higher, and if he’s told that his days are most likely numbered when it gets to that point.
The whole "BRAINS" incident
Has been isolated and is now in the decontamination chamber. We must never speak of this again, as it has the hearing of a wampus cat.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 2:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
More than likely, he will be.
And I think he should be. Chilly didn’t exactly leave him the best situation and he needs a chance to get something turned around. If he doesn’t have significant improvement in two years, then he’ll be gone.
We probably won't
but here we are anyway. ;)
Or, you know
Playing a 4-3 like they always have.
Why the heck does switching to the 3-4 incorporate trading Allen?
He would be a helluva pass-rushing outside linebacker. Get a deal for Robison and start Griffen, and then it would look like this on the front seven:
ROLB: Jared Allen
LOLB: Everson Griffen
ILB: Chad Greenway
ILB2: EJ/Jasper
DE: Kevin Williams
NT: Rd 2-4 Draft Pick
DE: Christian Ballard
Now for the back four…no freaking idea.
I still want to have a 4-3, just so we’re clear.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Jared isn’t prototypical for the 3-4. He is too big and not agile enough to be in coverage and not big enough to take the constant wear of holding the edge on the line. That is the thinking on why JA would need to be traded.
Tell that to his interception....
Joking, but that was pretty badass.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 16, 2011 2:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The only thing stopping Jared Allen from being a kick ass OLB is Jared Allen
I have a hard time believing anyone’s take on this sort of switch right now for two reasons:
1) everything is theory right now. Whether you are saying the Vikings should make the switch or they should never make the switch there are very little facts on the ground to go with it. The roster is at a point where they could make the switch (they probably have more pieces to a 3-4 puzzle than most care to admit), but then again they could stick with what they have and be fine. Really it’s all a matter of the coaching will and what their vision for the team is more than GM vision or what the pieces of the puzzle is currently.
2) To my knowledge Jared Allen hasn’t said anything about this one way or another. Right now any 3-4 talk is on the fringe of Vikingdom. Paul Allen isn’t talking much about it, nor are any of the beat writers talking about it with players. So there is nothing public about what Jared Allen would think about this sort of transfer right now. He has the physical ability, but does he have the desire? That’s the question and that’s the unknown. It would be my hope that IF the Vikings made this switch that the coaching staff would already know the answer to this important question. If they do know the answer and they do make the switch than the coaches are either idoits or Allen is open to the idea. If he’s open to the idea then I would expect him to be every bit the terror that Demarcus Ware or Mario Williams are right now.
by PackApologist on Dec 16, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know
I’m not sure that Allen makes sense as an OLLB. Seems like a waist of his talents, and I’m not sure he can cover consistently.
Well, the 3-4 olb rushes the passer a lot. He is very good at that.
The trade off might be that our middle linebackers seem to have trouble with their pass coverage duties, and swithing to a 3-4 would reduce that responsibility. I recall Jared Allen making a fantastic play in pass coverage downfield earlier in the year. And, he got an interception that had the announcers praising his skillset. I’m not saying a 3-4 is the right idea, but it is an interesting notion to try and piece together how it might possibly work.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
But it's a different thing
Or at least it’s a different thing a lot of the time. It seems small, but starting from a stance and starting standing up, and making the read for whether you should rush or need to cover, are a big differences.
Yep, that's an unknown. But there are 6 other guys in the front seven mix.
I wonder what the implications are for them. I know the middle linebackers have less responsibility for dropping back into coverage, so that is a plus for the unit.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Look at Clay Mathews
Many of the “experts” are always saying that he is pretty bad at pass coverage but he is a dominant rusher off the edge. sometimes he even is down in a 3pt stance. I really do not think JA would have any issues playing as similar style defense that Mathews plays if he wanted to put the effort into it.
Often times in a 3-4 scheme, one of the olb's will move up to the line in a down stance.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I think PA’s right above. It’ll come down to his attitude towards it. Based on our 3-4, we usually have our best pass rushing OLB rush 70-80% of the time.
We had a similar situation with Kampman. It was obvious from the get go that he didn’t want to switch and he struggled early. But eventually, Capers let him put his hand in the dirt and rush and he started to look better. He blew his ACL in week 8 I think but I think it woulda worked out ok.
It certainly was working for Williams down in Houston.
That being said, I don’t think you guys should switch. The one thing your FO always seems to be able to do is find guys who can get after the passer. Griffen looks promising, and even Ballard has looked good in his time. You just need your FO not to swing and miss on pretty much every secondary guy they draft like they have been doing.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Dec 16, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
And get a D coordinator who’s willing to do something more than play a super vanilla cover 2 scheme. Though, that very could be because you guys have had guys like Allen, Sherels, Burton, and Sapp as your primary players.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Dec 16, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
Worked for Dumervil as well.
The difference is, those teams all are being coached by coordinators who know what the hell they’re doing.
We have… Pagac. Who apparently is so bad our DBs don’t even run the coverages he calls.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
As for the ILB2
I would go with Erin/Jasper, in my opinion. E.J., as badass as he is and as much as I love him, he’s definitely going downhill quickly. And Erin has turned into one of our better linebackers this year. Plus, he’s great against the run, just like his brother.
No.
1. Jared Allen (see all comments above)
2. No LB depth. We might be able to creatively field 4 starting LB for the scheme, but we have no depth behind those guys to make it work
3. No NT. With Pat Williams gone, there is no big nose tackle to clog the middle.
4. D-line depth. We’d have to start our backups to find starters for the scheme and trade other starters who don’t fit the scheme. That would leave us with exactly 0 depth behind any starters for a 3-4.
5. No D-coordinator. As it stands, there’s nobody to run it. Maybe Pagac gets canned after the season, maybe not. Either way, we’d have to bring in somebody new.
So, no. A 3-4 isn’t happening next year without MAJOR shake-ups. I don’t think we can afford to have a draft/FA dedicated to changing scheme and address our needs along the O-Line and secondary.
SKOL Vikings!
Hmmm...
1. It’s not a question of CAN Allen play the position, it’s a question of does he want to? It’s a big question and one that can be answered in the offseason by the coaches behind closed doors. IF there is a push inside Winter Park for this then this part of the switch over can occur seamlessly.
2. The LB depth will change. Assuming Allen is game (that’s the only way a switch will make sense so we’ll control for this variable for the moment) then Allen and Griffen can hold down those jobs with Robison either traded or used as a rush specialists. Then when you consider the solid options that are spread thin now across three LB spots being used for one there is more LB depth than you may think. Both Hendersons, Greenway, and Brinkley could provide plenty of depth for ILB.
3. No NT. I don’t see how this is a problem for the switch over. The Vikings need an NT regardless of 4-3 or 3-4. They need that guy who is going to 2 gap and run stuff period.
4. D-line depth, like the LB depth, would change but still be present. K-Will and Ballard would be fine starters. Guion and Evans would be doing what they are doing now, rotational run stuffing. Sp I don’t see the depth problems, especially as the Vikings go shopping for more players over the next couple years.
5. From everything coming out of Winter Park now there is basically no D-coordinator right now. Pagac is a dead man walking and has been for a couple weeks. So like you said someone new would have to be brought in, or Singletary would need to run the unit with his 3-4 experience (which he has more experience in that system than Tampa 2).
So, no a 3-4 system for the Vikings wouldn’t require as major a shake up as you think. Even if it would require a major shake up the reality of the Vikings is that they need a major infusion of talent necessary regardless of the system they go with. That means if ANYONE in the organization wants to make that switch now is the time. Better to make this sort of switch when the team needs to go through a through rebuild then to wait a couple years get some pieces in place and then have to start over. That’s the point of all these sorts of commentators talking about how next year could look with a 3-4 defense in place.
by PackApologist on Dec 16, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
We wouldn't just get rid of people and not pick anyone up.
There is free agency and later rounds in the draft where we could pick up a few player specifically to provide depth. we can’t rely on the late rounds of the draft to provide us with starters on a consistent basis but they can provide us with depth. Just because we have poor linebacker and line depth right now, doesn’t mean that we will have poor linebacker and line depth next year. Especially if we are in a rebuilding phase, we need to start picking up capable players for depth. And just because we don’t have a NT right now, doesn’t mean we won’t have one next season. Same goes for defensive coordinator. We’re not going to switch right this moment, so hopefully the roster wouldn’t look the same.
That being said, I’m still very undecided on this.
I gotta say it
One big reason I don’t want this change is that it’s not who the Vikings are. We have lineman who get after the quarterback, not just plug space and take up blockers to free the backers behind them.
4-3 is part of the Vikings soul, darnit.
Here is the truth
I have to applaud you man, you hit the nail on the head for why I believe so many Viking fans bristle at this suggestion. It has nothing to do with personnel or coaching, but it does have everything to do with tradition and vision of the team. I get that and respect it. Heck I would even agree that the Vikings can continue to be successful in a 4-3 defense no matter what its form (whether that be an attacking Jim Johnson 4-3 or more a Tampa 2 4-3).
Where I would disagree (if I were a Viking fan) is the TOA putting the blinders on this possibility for this reason. Now if they look at it and feel more comfortable in something else that’s great and I understand, but with the current record the Vikings are at every possibility needs to be looked at in order to find the best solution for the team.
by PackApologist on Dec 16, 2011 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
it would just prolong the rebuilding process
In my opinion the VIkings do need a new defensive coordinator, something they’d have to do if they switched to the 3-4 as well. However there would have to be much more flotsom and jetsom with the roster in order to make the 3-4 work. Right now the focus can be on an interior defensive lineman and the secondary. However if they were to switch to a 3-4 we’re talking complete overhaul. We’re talking using a high draft pick on a true NT. We’re talking going after at least 3 linebackers in addition to revamping the secondary.
The biggest issue would be what to do with Jared Allen? I mean the dude is at his peak right now. Why would you want to mess with that? Nah I say stay the course. Get a new DC, upgrade the secondary, get a 1 tech who can stand his ground and be disruptive and I think this defense is back as a top 10 defense.
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
by NMVike on Dec 16, 2011 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, but
3-4 nose doesnt need a high pick. He’s a big plugger who doesn’t need to have flashy sack talent, which means he’s not that high of a pick.
Great comment.
I’d love to see the Vikings run a more aggressive 4-3 like Jim Johnson was famous for. Our scheme is too passive most of the time and that just doesn’t get it done unless you’ve got a great offense that can get you a lead. Basically we run the Indy scheme but don’t have the lead in games enough for it to be effective.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
Part of the problem too is our secondary
I think we’re hesitant to call blitzes because we’re so terrible in coverage. If we failed to get to the QB, we’d get absolutely torched.
Then again, we tend to get torched anyway..
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 16, 2011 8:46 PM CST up reply actions
Yup, and apparently our secondary refuses to play man coverage when blitzes are called anyway : )
Just a big mess all around. Hopefully the Vikings can add a lot of talent to the secondary and get better coaching in the offseason.
by CanadianViking on Dec 16, 2011 9:12 PM CST up reply actions
Since we get torched anyway, no matter what we do,
maybe they should just send a few blitzers on every play. Screw it. They’ll get beat anyway, might as well break a few quarterbacks.
Stay a 4-3 team but
Just looking at small part of going 3-4, would Allen face far less doubleteams and his opponents on the line would be tightends and running backs trying to block him. Would that make him more dangerous?
I remember reading that Frazier wanting to run a 46 defense before the season began
And that bringing in Singletary to coach the LB’s was part of that. I’d be all for that being Frazier was a CB and Singletary the MLB in that Super Bowl winning defense in Chicago. Would it work? Baltimore runs a variation of it and so did Tennesee under Fisher, and both those teams have tough defenses. We would need a top flight safety to make it work though.
3-4 could work, but...
I think the Vikings have the front 7 personnel to run a 4-3 or 3-4 alignment, provided they can find a suitable NT for the 3-4. I think the bigger issue is if we can get a superstar D-coordinator. If we can get a guy like Spagnuolo or Del Rio, then we should obviously stick with the 4-3. But if a top-notch 3-4 guy becomes availabe, then I think we would be foolish not to explore the option. Wade Phillips turned an awful 4-3 team to an outstanding 3-4 team, so anything is possible

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