Vikings Get Crushed By Saints, 42-20
by Christopher Gates on Dec 18, 2011 6:40 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings 2011 Season
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Well, hey, at least this week we don't have to worry about getting an apology from the league office for the referees screwing up on the final play of the game, am I right? Am I right, ladies and gentlemen?
No, the only apologies this week should be coming from a Vikings' defense that should probably donate their paychecks to the charity of their choice. (I would have just said to not bother collecting their checks but, you know, season of giving and such.) The pass rush didn't get so much as a sniff of Drew Brees all afternoon, as he threw five touchdown passes to four different receivers and put up the first 400-yard passing performance against the Vikings' defense since. . .Matt Leinart? Yes, Matt Leinart in a 31-26 Vikings' victory over the Arizona Cardinals at the Metrodome on November 26, 2006.
The Vikings set the record that we've talked about this week today, as they had their ninth consecutive game without an interception, breaking the tie that they were in with the 1996 Atlanta Falcons and the 2009 St. Louis Rams going into this week's game. With the 40 passes Brees threw today, they have now gone 269 pass attempts since the last time they intercepted a pass.
In what could be record time, it would appear as though we've already gotten our "Project 2012" answer on Cedric Griffin, who was not inactive this afternoon, but also did not see the field. He was benched at the start of the game for Benny Sapp and Asher Allen, and even after Allen went off with "concussion-like symptoms" early in the game, Griffin remained on the sideline. Sapp and Marcus Sherels manned the corner spots and rookie Brandon Burton played in the nickel role. I don't know what sort of disagreement Griffin got into with coach Leslie Frazier or defensive coordinator Fred Pagac after the second series of the game against Detroit last week, but he hasn't seen the field since. It's going to be a huge upset if he's back in purple and gold next year, given today's events.
Christian Ponder was a mess today as well, and what's happening appears to be exactly what I feared when he was thrown to the lions after Donovan McNabb flopped. (Christian? Lions? Eh? Ah, what do you know from funny, anyway?) But it appears that he's completely shell shocked, and I don't want him turning into David Carr v2.0. Granted, with Charlie Johnson looking more and more like he's training to be a bullfighter than a starting left tackle and nobody else on the offensive line seeming all that interested in keeping the future of the franchise from getting killed, I'm not sure what else he can do.
But Ponder is, still, the future of the franchise at the quarterback position. All you folks out there that are still under the impression that the Minnesota Vikings would spend a top three pick on a quarterback in the 2012 Draft need to a) get your heads out of the sand, and b) take a look at all the other damn holes this team has to fill. The quarterback position isn't among this team's three biggest needs right now, and it's not even close. The three biggest needs the Minnesota Vikings have right now are (in whatever order you prefer) wide receiver, offensive line, and defensive back, and any high choice not spent on one of those three positions would be a complete waste of a pick.
Adrian Peterson was back today, too, picking up 60 yards on ten carries, but with the Vikings getting down the way they did, it was probably best for his workload to be limited, even though he was disappointed by that development after the game. Toby Gerhart was the recipient of both of Ponder's touchdown passes, and wound up being Minnesota's leading receiver on the afternoon. Yep, it was that sort of afternoon for us, ladies and gentlemen.
So, that's where we're at, ladies and gentlemen. If you're still talking about this one. . .and why on earth would you be. . .feel free to do so right here. Thanks to everyone that hung out in the Game Threads this afternoon, particularly those that stuck it out all the way to the end. . .at this point, we need to laugh to keep from crying, and most times the Game Threads allow us to do that.
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Going to reiterate my comment
Even if the Vikings end up with the number 1 pick, they will not draft Andrew Luck. There are way too many other holes on this team to gamble on consecutive first round QB picks.
by Amrius on Dec 18, 2011 6:47 PM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I don't know, If we end up with the #1 pick I'd take Luck and trade Ponder to the Redskins or one of those other teams that were said to have wanted him last year.
I know Luck isn’t a sure thing either but he looks like he’d be worth the gamble. Probably a moot point since It’s still pretty unlikely we end up with the 1st pick
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 7:19 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Yea, I agree. Besides, the number one pick will not be that expensive.
We could have an open competition in training camp and trade Ponder before the trade deadline when some team is going to be more desperate for a qb trade. Then we could get some draft picks. Or wait a full season and then trade away rhe one we don’t want to keep in the off-season.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I'm not sure what we could get for Ponder but it's an interesting question.
We could draft Luck and get a late 1st rounder for Ponder or we could trade the pick for a mid 1st rounder and a 2013 1st rounder. Tough decision but like any trade scenario we should at least see what’s out there.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
Of course we couldn't get a 1st rounder for Ponder
He’s been playing like crap. More like a late 2nd or 3rd rounder (about where he should have been drafted)
I hate this idea sooooo much!
Why would you take a gamble on a guy that has never been tested in the Pros, when we have a guy who is now pro tested and looked good. Ponder has looked good, he has no O-Line and garbage receivers, with that in mind he is a rookie, he has been damn good! If we had a shot at luck and a team was willing to trade a ton of picks for it and the Vikes don’t take that, I might actually stop being a fan. That might be the last straw on this team. I would have to cheer for someone else until that management was gone.
IF YOU THINK REEM SHOULD BE RATED ANY HIGHER THAN AROUND THE #5 HEAVYWEIGHT (AND THAT IS STRETCHING IT) THEN YOU ARE A FLIPPIN MORON, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
by Edgecrusher71 on Dec 18, 2011 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I think Luck's a better prospect than Ponder and QBs the most important position in football.
There’s no guarantee that either QB will pan out but in my opinion there’s a greater chance of Luck being great than there is with Ponder. That being said if a team offers the farm for the pick I wouldn’t mind that scenario. Either way the Vikings will be in a win/win situation by either taking the best QB prospect in a long time or they’ll be able to auction off the pick to the highest bidder.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What gives Luck a better chance of being great?
At Stanford he has a Pro-level offensive line and TE’s. Don’t forget that his running backs are pretty good too. I know Luck is good but I think he might be a part of the ESPN hype train (see Tebow, Tim)
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
What makes Ponder a sure thing either?
The answer is that neither is a sure-thing but every scout, analyst, and most fans see much more potential in Luck than they do Ponder. Yes, Luck could be a bust but it doesn’t look very likely.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:26 PM CST up reply actions
Ponder definately is not a sure thing
but for as much bad as there is, there is also that much good. He has shown flashes of how good he can be if he has time. Drafting QBs back-to-back signifies the Ponder era is over after 3/4 of a season and is also a waste of the 2011 draft.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
most fans get their opinion from ESPN
so that’s not a very valid thing to argue.
and nothing makes Ponder a sure thing, but using two 1st rd picks in back-to-back years on QBs is not a way to build a team that is in desperate need at multiple positions.
better to roll the dice on Ponder and address your other needs. even the almighty Andrew Luck can’t turn this team around behind a shaky OLine and a meager WR corp.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
If we're lucky enough to get the first pick I'd look to trade Ponder for needs.
Kolb got Philly a 2nd rounder and a good young CB. I doubt we’ll end up in this position anyway so it’s just a fun debate to have. Hell, we’ve talked about trading Peterson and Allen on here enough that I don’t think trading Ponder and drafting Luck is any crazier : )
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
I'll bet we could trade Ponder to the Cards.
Because Kolb looks mediocre, like he cashed in on the qb frenzy.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Kolb to me is like Luck
Not in skill set but in hype over nothing done in the NFL.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
That's a joke, right? Kolb was a career back up and 2nd round draft choice.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
by krinkle on Dec 18, 2011 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm talking about how hyped he was after doing nothing in the NFL.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Kolb cashed in huge. Luck is the real deal though.
I’m glad they lost one this year and he didn’t win the Heisman. That would have really overhyped him.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
He would have been on Tebow's level for sure
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
He's way beyond tebow
Tim was always tempered by the realization he can’t throw.
Tebow's hype was about his being the greatest COLLEGE football player ever
and deservedly so. Few, if any, ever hyped him into being a great PRO quarterback.
Luck has played extremely well in a pro system in college, and is widely regarded as smart, coachable, athletic, and a great leader. So everyone figures he’ll be able to step in and start immediately.
Every prospect comes into the draft season with questions. We haven’t heard any about Luck yet but we will. I just think he’s a different QB prospect than we have seen in a long time. Since Peyton Manning imo, although I’m no Mel Kiper or Todd McSheabutter.
by Bodysuit Man on Dec 19, 2011 7:41 AM CST up reply actions
If he had won the Heisman again and won the national championship this year, they would probably knight him.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I thought he was runner-up both years
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
You are right, The hype must be getting to me.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
He was both
the heisman winner and the runner-up.
HE’S JUST THAT GOOD!
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
I meant Luck
Being the winner and runner-up.
In the same season.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:53 PM CST up reply actions
Haha, maybe we could
For Fitz, right? Man, that’d be sweet.
But no, really, I don’t see us trading Ponder away. That’s so.. NBA’ish to me. I don’t think we’d get a 1st for him anyway. Probably just a 2nd at best.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
That'd be awesome to get Fitz but it definitely won't happen : )
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
... We will give up the Andrew Luck pick
for Fitz! Oh, and, um.. their 1st rounder. And 3rd. That’s fair, right?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Some one get Mark on this scenario
I want to see his draft-magic work on this. It could be perfect! We get that #1 WR, and use our new 1st rounder on O-line.
Boom, holes filled. Ohhh yeah. Just hire me now, Wilf.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:31 PM CST up reply actions
I can see that now.
Draft Luck then trade Allen, AD, and an X-large pizza for a Lombardi !!
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
What, no!
I will never condone a JA trade. Don’t twist my fantasy into a nightmare!
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
Except the right to Luck
Are worth much more. So much more to be the obvious trade option.
I don't get my opinion from ESPN. I'm actually lucky that in Canada I don't see a lot of there non-stop propaganda type analysis.
It’s bad enough watching Countdown or Primetime this year with the Tebow coverage. Not sure I could handle that type of media coverage every day : )
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
Everyone knew about Tebow......
…..not being ready for the pro level and that he had poor mechanics, that is not the case with luck, you are definitely not comparing apples to apples there.
IF and it’s a big IF the Vikings get the #1 pick, then you seriously have to look at taking Luck, they should also set up some possible deals with other teams, this is not unheard of in the NFL.
Example: Vikes take Luck with pick 1, then a team with the 3rd or 4th pick picks up the guy the Vikes actually wanted, they swap and that team also throws in an additional player or pick, this way the Vikes get additional personnel that could help to fill out needed help at other positions.
Luck is sought after highly enough that teams are willing to make those kinds of deals. It has nothing to do with him ever being in a pro game, people are willing to look at his POTENTIAL impact alone, and if that nets you some bargaining chips then you damn well use them.
Could you please be our new GM?
Luck is everyone’s BPA, so of course you pick him if you get the opportunity. And having Ponder doesn’t change that. Having more than one quality QB on your roster is not a bad thing, it’s a thing that great teams have happen to them.
If you can get trade value out of one of them, then you do that. But you don’t give anything away, you rip off the trading partner so you get the better deal. Luck isn’t as sure thing but neither is Ponder. And let’s not even try to compare their college careers because Luck blows Ponder away.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Ponder and think he’ll be pretty good with some blocking, but he’s not in Luck’s ballpark talent-wise, and there’s no reason to pretend that he is. Even if the only reason is that he happens to be a Viking right now.
by Bodysuit Man on Dec 19, 2011 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
You really have no basis
To say that.
Ponder was bad today. But luck has played zero snaps.
It's just my opinion from watching the two and what I've read in scouting reports.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
ahh, yes, scouting reports...
…brings a multi dimensional versatility to the game, but does he bring it at a high enough level to be an NFL starter? I think he’s a two year project (but then, so many quarterbacks in this draft are), who would do well taking over on a team with a defensive identity and a strong running game. He seems more like that perfect type of game manager, who isn’t going to turn the ball over, and put your team at risk. I would have no problem using a third round pick, and sitting him a season or two, wile he works on his under center game.
that was a scouting report last year for Andy Dalton — about half of which was complete garbage.
point being, scouting reports can’t always be trusted.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Agreed. I try to watch the player, read a bunch of different scouting reports, and then go with my gut.
Obviously, I’m no expert but I do think for myself. If you look at some of my posts from last year you’ll see that I thought Gabbert was really overrated and I couldn’t see why scouts and analysts loved him. That being said, I didn’t think Dalton would turn out to be as good as he has so far.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
Dalton landed in a really good situation.
They have a pretty solid team and there was no qb controversy and he got himself a crazy good receiver target to work with.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Yeah,
that situation in the scouting report? That pretty much happened for him. The Bengals do have a strong defensive identity and running game.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
He throws a nice touch pass over the top as well.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Cincy ranks 19th in Rush YPG
…hardly a “strong” running game.
but a two-yr project?? let him sit for a couple years while he works on his under the center game??
Dalton proved that wrong. the only thing that scouting report got correct was the strong defensive identity — and that’s after Cincy was a middle-of-the-road D last yr.
(and not to be picky, but 13 INTs and 3 FUM are also borderline in terms of ‘not turning the ball over’…)
hence, scouting reports can be hit or miss.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
They were a strong rushing team
going into the season. Benson was performing well for them. I think part of the reason they’ve slipped this year is because they actually have a QB who can throw now.
They’ve started moving away from that running game, but, if they had to, I’m sure it could carry the team.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
uhh, not so much...
Benson was serviceable and ran for 1,000+, but Cincy ended 2010:
27th in total Rush yds
32nd in Rush yds/a
27th in Rush yds/g
29th in Rush TDs
…dare i bring up the double-digit Rushing fumbles…??
about as far from a strong rushing team as you can get.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
All true but Dalton's impressed me anyway.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
Me too. That wasn't intended to slight his accomplishments.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Yeah remember how Leinhart was supposed to be a pretty sure fire shoe in for greatness?
Luck is not a better prospect right now. He is 100% a guess to what if anything he can do in the Pros. Ponder on the other hand is not. We have so many other holes. It is crazy that two of our biggest needs are OL and WR and yet Ponder has still shown signs of life with that in mind!
IF YOU THINK REEM SHOULD BE RATED ANY HIGHER THAN AROUND THE #5 HEAVYWEIGHT (AND THAT IS STRETCHING IT) THEN YOU ARE A FLIPPIN MORON, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
by Edgecrusher71 on Dec 18, 2011 9:37 PM CST up reply actions
Lienart wasn't sure fire anything, he was drafted 10th overall and not the top qb taken.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
There was debate on who would be the top QB taken with him, VY, and Cutler
People were shocked that he fell that far
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
But none of those qbs were touted as highly as Ryan, Stafford, Bradford or Luck.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I don't know about that.
Ryan was not highly touted. People were saying he was going to be a bust, same as Stafford. People had doubts about Bradford coming back from his arm injury. Those three all had doubts and I think VY, Cutler, and Lienart were just as highly touted. VY and Lienart were coming off the great championship game. The only person who no one seems to have any concerns over is Luck, which seems troublesome to me. For some reason if everyone agrees on something, it’s usually not the correct answer imo.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
You didn't think the USC/TEX game was good? :-)
Honestly though all of the QB’s listed had concerns and hype about them except for Luck.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
That was one of the greatest college games ever.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Yeah, it just isn't worth it.
When you have a guy like Ponder who has shown some good things and has had some success with a terrible o-line and receivers.
IF YOU THINK REEM SHOULD BE RATED ANY HIGHER THAN AROUND THE #5 HEAVYWEIGHT (AND THAT IS STRETCHING IT) THEN YOU ARE A FLIPPIN MORON, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
by Edgecrusher71 on Dec 19, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't pick Luck, either
but I would trade the first overall pick for a mid first round and a mid second round, perhaps be able to fill 2 needs. (not using the word “holes” was intentional"
trading the 1st overall pick, to a mid-rd team, would give you...
2012 1st
2012 2nd
2013 1st
…and possibly more.
yeah, i’m sticking with Ponder and taking that deal 10/10 times.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
by rj-b on Dec 18, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you under-value the first pick....
Look at what Atlanta gave for the sixth pick and Julio Jones…..a mid first and second is not near enough for Luck or Griffen3, the Vikings should only listen to offers that involve two firsts and a second, or a mid first and second this year, and another first and second next year.
I also think the bidding war may push the ante higher. Let’s hope the front office is ready to be city-throat this year and get the best deal possible.
I will not be PONDERing anything, ever again....I'm so tired of this pun. Maybe we could use antonyms to be different, like: "FORGET about last season, as we COGITATE about winning in 2011!"...Whatever, SKOL VIKES!!!
Utter nonsense.
Nobody passes on Andrew Luck. Anyone stupid enough to do that should be fired and run out of town with pitchforks.
I like Christian Ponder, and I think he’s going to be a fine NFL quarterback, but he’s no Andrew Luck. Ponder would make some team very happy in a trade for a first round draft pick.
Naw,
I don’t think he will get that much. If we could get that for him and take Luck, that’d be great, but it just won’t happen. Nobody is going to give up a 1st rounder for Ponder when they can just take RG III or Barkley and mold them from the start.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
Luck would be crazy to come to Minnesota to play for Muskrat and Frazier.
He’s not that dumb, and no good quarterback coming out of college is that dumb, either.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
There is a lot of needs on this team...
I’d love for them to draft Kalil out of USC in addition to another OL or two. They also need a few DB’s and a WR. With all that being said, if I had the chance to select Luck I’d do it. In 1984 the Blazers had a need at center and already had Clyde Drexler so they drafted Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan – sometimes going after talent is more important then going after need. No one here knows how Luck will turn out but the potential I think is too much to pass up.
The main hole is GM
This organization, coaching, and players are all a mess. I sure hope they haven’t permanently damaged Ponder because he is regressing. Hopefully that will change with protection and receivers, but man, this is looking worrisome.
by Murgo on Dec 18, 2011 6:51 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Regressing or fleeing?
Hard to tell what progress is or isn’t being made when he didn’t seem to make a single pass without pressure. I just hope we can fix up that line enough to find out next year.
Both unfortunately.
I know the line is bad but some of the good things Ponder was doing earlier in the season have disappeared. Most of the season when Ponder would take off running because of pressure he’d look to pass or throw the ball away. Lately he’s not even looking to pass while he runs and he’s starting to look like he’s trying to protect himself rather than trying to make a play. Definitely not all his fault but he looks rattled to me and the poise and heady plays we saw at times earlier in the year just aren’t there anymore.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 7:34 PM CST up reply actions
That's my worry
I just hope he is protecting himself from being the sacrificial lamb as the season winds down.
I'm not too worried about him being the goat of the season.
There’s so many other problems right now that even his harshest critics can’t put all the blame on him and I’m saying that as someone who’s high on Webb at QB.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 7:45 PM CST up reply actions
but yet some do
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I think by sacrificial lamb...
…he meant human pinata. But I’m not sure. At least that’s how I would use it in that context. Not necessarily that Ponder will be blamed and benched, but that he’ll take too much abuse that it ruins him in what is already a lost season. With our offensive line, whoever is back there is doing nothing but running for their lives all the time.
Correct me if I misinterpretted, Murgo.
I'm worried that his hip is still kind of bothering him
and that he could be giving it complete rest. While he needs the education, he also doesn’t need to reaggrevate an injury that probably hasn’t completely healed….it’s not like we need him in the lineup to make the playoffs.
Truer words have not been typed
“The main hole is GM”.
I didn’t get to watch the game, only clips for NFL network. Brees’ fourth (!) touchdown pass was especially disturbing, as two TEs were completely uncovered. When’s the last time you saw a QB have his choice of two wide open receivers? Last time other than against the Vikings I mean.
Sad, sad state of affairs for this franchise.
by Bodysuit Man on Dec 18, 2011 7:22 PM CST up reply actions
We don't even have a GM.
Can’t you watch the game on the internet? Lots of people do.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Work ethic
What it comes down to for me at this point is who is putting in the effort now and who isn’t. Everybody wants to work when you are winning all the time. Let’s see who does it when you aren’t. If I am the coaching staff and whoever the front office is, I am watching to see who really works for their paychecks over these last 2 games. If players aren’t grinding, send them packing. I think it’s time to blow it up and start adding new pieces to the puzzle.
Well
That includes everyone but Peterson, Harvin, and Allen, Toby, Ponder, and Webb. Maybe Shekels and Erin too.
by Amrius on Dec 18, 2011 7:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hey Sapp and Griffen need to need to be included there as well
Greenway was exposed big time today, Sproles made a fool of him out therein coverage. I know he normally doesn’t cover RB’s and because of injuries he was forced to, but man you can’t get burned as bad as he did.
Personally, I think that's exposing the coaches
Greenway does most things well, but he’s not good in one on one coverage. He shouldn’t be asked to do that, imho. Play to your players’ strengths.
Of course...
It’s not entirely the coaches’ fault. The dearth of bodies that are capable of any sort of coverage is probably even more to blame…
People forget that Greenway is an outside linebacker
and can’t be in on every play. Our middle linebacker really hasn’t shown up much in the middle on tackles and we continuously get burned up the middle on both the run and passing routes.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Well
I was referring to the notion of players not giving 100% all time, meaning all the ones I listed do give it their all on every play and everyone else is suspect.
I honestly have no idea what’s going on with Greenway this year. He’s never been very explosive or dynamic but he’s been really consistent until now. Now he just vanishes for plays at a time.
I think Ponder has looked good when he wasn't running for his life
O-line has to be the priority for this draft. Got to give Ponder a chance
Need to do the opposite as well.
Someone like Jared needs to get a bonus for being a true grinder week in and week out. Jared and Percy deserve a grinder bonus lol.
IF YOU THINK REEM SHOULD BE RATED ANY HIGHER THAN AROUND THE #5 HEAVYWEIGHT (AND THAT IS STRETCHING IT) THEN YOU ARE A FLIPPIN MORON, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
by Edgecrusher71 on Dec 19, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
some of these people need to get off Ponders ass its not his fault our O line sucks balls he is a good young very raw QB that will learn as he grows and if u give him time to throw hes money so some guys in here lay off his arse im talking to you (los viking) give it a rest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yep, Ponder was pressured every time he went back to pass
I don’t think the O-line blocked anybody for more than .5 of a second. I we can get Ponder some protection he is going to be fine.
I agree with Chris though. I think he is starting to look a little shell-shocked. I am getting
worried about this too. It might not be a bad idea to let Webb play the last couple games. This Oline is doing nothing except maybe damaging a young QB’s psyche.
As stated below by dumdistrig
If we bench Ponder now, how would that affect his psyche? To be told the team is yours and have that pulled from you, regardless if it’s his fault or not, would be pretty damaging.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Just let him play
There’s no real reason to sit him. If he’s going to be your QBOTF you want to give him the chance to get out of his slump, shitty O-line or not.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
I think if we allow the hip to heal completely, he will be better
but I would tell him that we can’t afford him to get injured even worse than he is now.
I heard he was fine. It's I think it's Adrian that needs a little more healing.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I'm by no means a medical expert
But I believe hip injuries can have a tendency to nag on you. You may think it’s healed and a little bump will re-aggravate it.
I don't think his hip was the issue today.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
He has happy feet and rightfully so.
His O-Line does nothing to protect him. The Iron-Man Favre got happy feet with the Vikes O-Line last year and THEY WERE BETTER LAST YEAR!
IF YOU THINK REEM SHOULD BE RATED ANY HIGHER THAN AROUND THE #5 HEAVYWEIGHT (AND THAT IS STRETCHING IT) THEN YOU ARE A FLIPPIN MORON, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
by Edgecrusher71 on Dec 19, 2011 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed. He needs to be given another year or two.
You can’t tell how good a player is going to be in their rookie season. Usually, the greatest improvements QBs make are in their 2nd year (with the exception of Bradford, but the Rams might be even worse than the Vikings) and then you’ll know if the QB will work out around their third season, in most cases. If he makes some solid improvements this off-season and then all throughout next year, this will all be forgotten about and written off as him being a rookie. People might be overreacting, but then again, they might not be. The only way we’ll know any of that is to roll the dice with him and let him try and get better.
Absolutely this ^ hey Cali
Was at the game brother and amazed me how much the Vikes really need. You see it on TV but when you see it in person and how plays are are simply not developed or a bust over all and not just what the camera see’s its sad. As far as Ponder is getting shell shoked, not even. and with the statements he is not doing what he was doing and regressing give it up people. Because if you take that view you can apply it to the entire team. Most posts here still seem to think and are waiting for some QB to be the answer. Newton came out gang busters set an NFL qb record yet look at the W/L column. Ponder is the real deal just as Cali and I and Citrus had said way early last season Dalton is the real deal and got blasted here for it. The last thing this team needs is to respond to glimmers of good and bad as some fans here. Some after the Detroit game were saying," The Vikes are not as bad as I thought." The Vikes sadly are bad very bad and its not one guy or Andrew Luck that is going to all of a sudden change that. I recall being a big baby when they didnt draft Dalton and took Ponder some good football minds here helped me keep an open mind and look at Ponder. Many here on this post that would jettison him now were all about him then. Ponder is the deal. If the Vikes can come close to addressing some of the issues this team has it will show. Most teams that are depleted like this show exactly what we see happening all positions being lack luster. Allen didnt get a sack yesterday did his game fall off? No a team that is great need played a good team that needs to be hot at this point in the season.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
by Velvetouch on Dec 19, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This was over before it began
So I’m not reading into things too much. When the announced our starting backfield as Sherels, Allen, Raymond and Sanford, I knew it was going to be ugly. Then, to top it off, Allen left the game with a concussion (while Benny Sapp is no world beater, I thought he did ok all things considered).
We didn’t play well in any facet of the game really (is this the worst game our offensive line has ever played?) but that secondary was like shooting fish in a barrel for a QB like Brees. Or maybe like shooting a dead fish on a plate. With a machine gun.
I was expecting him to break the
single-game TD record.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 8:12 PM CST up reply actions
special teams did ok
particularly on kick off and punt coverage.
Strong Draft
Every Viking fan hopes and prays for Speilman, Fraizer the the rest of the front office to study hard and make serious and significant picks in the April 2012 draft. This will be the team’s best opportunity in many years to draft players to supplement the core of Peterson, Ponder, Harvin, Allen and Rudolph. Kalil has already announced that he plans to enter the draft; draft him and add a couple more players that hopefully will become the future Ron Yarys, Gary Zimmermans and Randle McDaniels. A future Keith Millard, Alan Page, Carl Eller, Joey Browner or Scott Studwell on defense would be really nice too!
It is close to Christmas; no harm in developing a list
This year will be a good test
For Spielman and his scouting/drafting core. Depending on who you ask, they either did well last year with Ponder and Rudolph (the others really haven’t seen the field enough to tell) or not so well. I’m in the camp of the former so I’m curious to see if they can put another strong draft together or if last year was a fluke.
If they do good, Spielman will disprove a lot of the criticism of him. If they do poorly, his ass needs to be shown the door
by Amrius on Dec 18, 2011 7:26 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
We are at the point right now
where we can’t tell if the blame is on him or Chilly. No one knows how much influence Chilly had on draft day and which guys are Chilly’s and which ones are Spielmans.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Basically my point
We’ve had one year without Chilly so far and I think we did pretty decent. Aside from Ponder and Rudolph, we have some guys that could make a big impact once they mature a bit more in Ballard, Raymond, Love, Fusco, etc.
If they can keep that trend of picking good (or at least people with potential) in the later rounds, it’s safe to say that Childress was mucking things up.
That’s why this year will be huge. I know, in terms of mathematics, 2 instances of an event occurring a certain way isn’t enough to really call a trend but this year we’re going to get little glimpses of a pattern starting to develop, either good or bad. Of course the only real way to tell is to give Frazier/Spielman (assuming one or both make it that long. You never know) as long as Childress/Spielman had and look back.
agreed
we got a lot of mid- and late-rd steals. Ballard, Love and BBurton all had 2nd/3rd rd grades on them, and we got them in rds 4-6.
considering we know TJack was all Chilly in the 2nd rd, i’m willing to believe a lot of poor picks were on Chilly. Spielman isn’t without blame, i’m sure, but let’s give it one more year and see what happens on the FO front.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
This team can't afford to have a bad draft with where they are drafting at.
Maybe a change needs to be made before that happens.
agreed.
I’m still baffled that we signed Spielman after he constructed the Miami team that went 1-15
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I think we had a good draft last year
Ponder, Rudolph, Ballard, Love, Raymond. Time will tell but we got a few guys that by all accounts should have been drafted earlier. That being said we need a general manager to oversee FO operations
I don't know that I'd throw Love/Raymond on there as 'good' yet
Ballard has shown he can play when called upon, and so have the others, but there isn’t enough of Love/Raymond to start crowning them yet.
Truth be told, I’ve been a little disappointed with our picks after the 1st round for the last couple years. It seems like they never step up and make solid contributions. And that’s probably why we’re stuck where we are right now. We get crap in the later rounds.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
the play calling was terrible
third and long like 15 yards and we try three screen passes three different times. hey you gotta try something but a third and 15 screen pass works like once a unless it against us then its a sure thing. I do not blame Ponder the play calling was just so bad. Down by a bunch and we quit running the ball. The only way to stop the bleeding was to keep it out of NO hands and we pass three times in a row. Just can not figure that out.
Try to learn from others mistakes because there just is not enough time in this world to make them all your self
by montana vikes fan on Dec 18, 2011 7:17 PM CST reply actions
I'd be curious as to the time of possession in this one.
Didn’t seem like to O was out there all that often.
I think we had the ball 38min to your 22 min
Good luck I hope your FO gets things straightened out
by mississippisaintsfan on Dec 18, 2011 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
Hey thanks a lot mississippisaintsfan
Early in the week of couple of our guys were joking that Brees was going to throw for 650 yds and 7 touchdowns. And I’ll be danged if they weren’t fairly close. It might take us a couple of years to right the ship, but you never know. Good luck on your season and it was enjoyable visiting your site a little bit this week.
That one is easier than logging on to sbnation.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/boxscore;_ylt=A2KJhq5.mO5OLQEAWANDubYF?gid=20111218016
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Both teams had 12 drives.
But we only had 54 plays, they had 79 plays. We had 7 punts, they had only 1 punt.
We averaged twice as many yards per rush than we did per pass play.
The Saints had 34 first downs, while the Vikings had only 12 first downs.
Okay, I’ll stop.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
And we didn't turn the ball over until the last play.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I told everyone that would listen
When McNabb was struggling earlier in the season, most of the fans I talked to were begging for Ponder. I repeated time and time again that I didn’t think it was a good idea. Not because I thought McNabb was a better answer, but because with that line I was scared of Ponder being David Carr 2.0, as you put it (I also made the comparison to Carr, but didn’t phrase it cleverly like that). The year was lost, it was clear, so I was perfectly happy letting McNabb be the sacrificial lamb until they could get some help for Ponder. Especially without a full training camp, I was really worried about putting him in.
I was happy when he looked good when he got a chance to start, but the fact that he was running for his life all the time still scared me. I kept my mouth shut, though, hoping that I was wrong. Since he was starting anyway, no sense in saying anything. But now I’m really scared for him. Now, he seems to be made of tougher stuff than Carr, but still, getting hit constantly isn’t good for any QB. Of course, now that he was made a starter, being demoted would also have bad consequences, at least in today’s NFL. I don’t have any answers, but at least to the people that told me I was full of it (not on here, I wasn’t a member yet), I want to say a big “I told you so.”
And yeah, our secondary might be one of the worst of all time. When Benny Sapp is your rock, it’s a bad, bad sign, no offense to him. If our line doesn’t get to a QB in about 3 seconds, there will be at least one receiver open, all opposing QBs need to do is get it to them. Which makes Allen’s sack pace all the more impressive. I don’t think we’ve gotten a “coverage sack” all year, although I missed the first two games, when we had a healthier secondary (still nothing world-beating, but having Winfield and Cook at least made it respectable, even if we didn’t have much of anything past them).
I really wonder
if Benny Sapp is actually a pretty good cornerback, or if our secondary is just so god-awful that he looks like he’s a starting caliber corner. It’s weird seeing someone on our team knock the ball out of someone else’s hand.
Its the latter.
Don’t be fooled by the mirage our terrible secondary projects.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
After watching Hutch today I think it's time to release him
I really really like him and he has been nothing but the best for our franchise but his play has really regressed and today he just flat looked old and slow. His capp number is way too high for what he brings to our team. I don’t even see him as a back up because we still would be paying too much even if he took a pay cut. Our O-line made NO’s D-line lookl ike world beaters today.
absolutely
i’ve said the same for the last couple weeks. i’d love to see Fusco get a shot next season. and i figured Love would be at OG, but apparently the coaching staff would rather have him as a backup OT…
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
i actually had to look up our OLine coach today
it’s a shame… i love Frazier but all of his coaching appointees have turned out awful.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
the coach is fine
We replaced the offensive line coach after last year. At the same time we switched to a primarily man-blocking scheme, away from zone-blocking.
Sullivan has progressed and now has earned a contract extension under the coach.
Hutchinson and Herrera are warriors as always, they are just getting old now. Joe Berger should get more time at guard.
Charlie Johnson is not playing adequately.
It isn’t time to give up on Phil Loadholt. He needs time to adjust to man-blocking. We need an answer in place for next season, however, if he can’t play a lot better.
The problem is not the o-line coaching. The problem is the current talent level, and the adjustment to man-blocking.
by medicineball on Dec 18, 2011 9:30 PM CST up reply actions
They haven't awitched to a man blocking scheme, they use both.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Yeah, I kind of like the new blocking scheme
Or at least the aspect of it. If we can pull it off, that’d be great. Maybe if McKinnie didn’t get so damn out of shape to secure his release, the O-line would be respectable.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:32 PM CST up reply actions
re: Loadholt
disagree — i think it’s absolutely time to give up on him. he can’t pass protect worth a damn and has had three seasons to progress on that front… which he hasn’t.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I hate to type this, but the Vikings rank first in the NFL in running off right tackle.
But he is a penalty machine who can’t pass block.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Loadholt is a beast of a run blocker
He just gets totally torched on pass blocking by speed DEs. He needs to lose some weight and work on his footwork.
Yup Loadholt is rated #1 run blocker in the league and....
Second worst pass blocker also, I wonder who’s worse than him? C Johnson?
I hear there's this new-fangled thing called ray-dee-o.
Any you fellers know how I can get ta hear our boys lose? I used to be able to listen on KFAN but I cain’t do thet thar thang no more fer some gol-dang reason. Maybe it’s better I don’t listen, but, heck, still, they’re our boys, don’t ya see?
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.
i tried it today b/c i had to work, but...
…KFAN on iHeartRadio was plugged into the radio equivalent of the Red Zone Channel. i was pissed.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Verizon and NFL Mobile App
If you have Verizon, and the NFL Mobile App, you can listen to any game (home or away broadcast) for free. Just have to have Verizon…and an Android I believe.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
no but he wanted to listen to kfan :) lol
by cali viking on Dec 18, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
It is KFAN
If you select the “home broadcasts” you get to listen to Paul Allen and the KFAN broadcast. :)
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Thankee, fellers
I’ll give it another try. But these new-fangled gol-danged contraptions they got these days, I swear, I might do better with a tin can and a string, dontchasee? I got me Verizon but not one of them thar Android-thing-o-ma-bobs. Them thar thangs cost money, dontchasee?
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.
to those who are saying, if we somehow end up with the first pick, to not draft Luck are crazy
all I see here is “Give ponder a chance” now this might sound crazy, but I’m reminded of something. Competition brings out the best in people. If Ponder is as good as many people here are claiming, then why not draft Luck and have the two fight it out in training camp/preseason, to see who is best to leading this team? If we do draft Luck, then the vikings will have 2 good QB’s and we could use one of them as trade bait and possibly get a good draft pick or 2. having the first pick for the vikings would be a very difficult decision, because we could get someone, who has the talent of contributing to the offensive line in a big way in Matt kalil, or would we go after a QB, that has the talent, potential and is as NFL ready as any rookie QB has been in a long time, to lead this team into the future. It would be interesting to see which direction they would go, if they in fact end up with the first round pick, but this seems very unlikely.
by mattnmics on Dec 18, 2011 8:03 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Because our O-line will still be craptastic
Whether its Luck or Ponder back there, neither one is going to have time to make their reads and throw well.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
with the number one overall pick
we could trade down and fill a few needs instead of just one indulgence.
This is kind of a needs versus BPA debate.
Do you really want to pass on Luck because you’ve got Ponder? Isn’t that the same as passing on an Adrian Peterson when you’ve got a Chester Taylor?
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
we didn't spend a previous year's 1st rd pick on Chester Taylor, though
i get your point, but it still doesn’t translate in the argument.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
This too
The Panthers got lucky, drafting consecutive QBs in the first round. Plus, I think Ponder has shown more upside than Clausen did
They didn't
They took Clausen in the 2nd because he was falling. And he straight-out blew chunks from the get-go.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:18 PM CST up reply actions
lol No
He was projected to be, but he had an epic draft-day fall. And apparently for good reason.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:25 PM CST up reply actions
He was considered pro-ready coming out of college, too.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Jimmy Clausen career passer rating: 58.4. 3 Touchdowns, 9 Interceptions. No snaps this year.
Christian Ponder career passer rating: 73.4. 13 Touchdown, 12 Interceptions.
by medicineball on Dec 18, 2011 9:46 PM CST up reply actions
Ponder is better than Clausen, check.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
If you traded Ponder for a high pick it'd be pretty similar situation.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:18 PM CST up reply actions
that's just complete nonsense, though
this is literally the most asinine take i may have ever heard — trading Ponder the year after we drafted him. it’s hard to even argue with this, it’s that illogical. the sad thing is, so many people are in favor of it with not a whole lot to back it up.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
by rj-b on Dec 18, 2011 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It'd be illogical if Ponder wasn't playing like crap lately and Luck wasn't such a highly rated prospect.
It’s only nonsense if you’re completely sold on Ponder turning out to be a great QB. Frankly, I’m not sold that he’s the future yet just because we picked him so high.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:58 PM CST up reply actions
Detroit he playing like crap but I don't think you can put the Saints game on him.
The whole team played like crap especially our O-Line.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
The point is..
Part of the reason Ponder is playing like crap is because he’s forced to press to keep us in games, and the offensive line can’t stop anyone from applying the pressure to him.
It is something of a BPA vs Need situation here, but if we get Kalil, well.. a cornerstone LT is as much BPA as that QB. Especially to a running team like us. And he fills a need.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
I'll agree with that. Kalil is my pick if we're #2 for sure.
I just think if we happen to get the #1 pick it’s a valid question to ask if we should take the highest rated player in the draft at the most valuable position in football.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
Normally, I would say yes
But QBs are a whole other ballgame. Especially when you just drafted one the season before with your first pick.
I really don’t think Ponder’s been bad enough in this slump for the FO to decide Luck will be trascendent enough to pass up on Kalil. I’ll take a Joe Thomas/Jake Long type of player on the team, for sure.
But its not unprecented. I think its obvious though, if they do take Luck in that situation, they better hit the nail on the head with the rest of their draft picks and/or find somebody to trade for Ponder. Because we’ll have basically gotten nothing for our first selection in the ’11 draft except a back-up getting first rounder money.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
4 years $11 million for a good back up is fine by anyone's standards
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
A back-up QB
isn’t worth burning a 1st rounder on though.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
Great point. That's less than what we payed Rosenfels to provide competition for TJack.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:17 PM CST up reply actions
Top pick Cam Newton got 4 years $22 million
($14 mil guaranteed).
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
The rookie wage scale definitely makes the draft more interesting.
Less financial risk will allow teams to admit mistakes sooner and I think we’ll see more trades like the Julio Jones deal as well.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
No idea.
It’s a good question, but with the Bears being absolute shit without Cutler and Forte, I don’t think it will matter. That game might actually be winnable.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
Plus I'm sure the players
will be looking for revenge for that absolute thrashing they gave us last time.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
Valid point
The situations are different though, namely our O-line. Our o-line was head and shoulders above where it is now when Peterson was drafted. We still had Birk anchoring the line.
I understand that Luck is a good college QB
but how did he get anointed as a can’t miss pro? The way people talk about him he’s already in the hall of fame. For all we know he could be a bust. From what I’ve read people compare him to Matt Ryan who, while good, isn’t an “elite” QB.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Look what Musgrave did with Matt Ryan in his first season.
And Matt Ryan was the best qb coming out of college the year he was drafted. Luck is touted as a better prospect than he was. Ponder is good, but he is not as highly touted. The scouting on him has him as pro ready, but lower ceiling. I don’t buy into that stuff completely, but it was pretty much the consensus, so there is probably something to it. Then again, he seems like drew brees coming out of college.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I don't think so
Peterson was a top 3 talent that fell. At a position that isn’t known for its longevity.
When you’re talking QB vs RB, its apple-to-oranges.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:21 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, QBs more important : )
Seriously, I know it’s not the exact same situation but the philosophy is the same. BPA over need.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
Where do you draw the line though?
Even if we draft Luck, he will get hammered just like Ponder has behind our o-line and relying on the FA for o-line is a total misnomer. You have to build your o-line through the draft, we got lucky with Hutch but reliable o-linemen just arent found very often in the FA.
Let Ponder get hammered while we figure out an o-line. Let Luck be his back up.
Then get some receivers and switch to Luck and KABOOM, we are wicked good.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Oh geeze.
That would make Spielman look like a complete moron for even taking Ponder last year to begin with. I don’t think he’ll go that route.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:53 PM CST up reply actions
I want to close my eyes, click my heels 3 times and have Spielman disappear.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Wow
How are we wicked good when we waste the #2 pick on a backup?
Because, in that scenario,
we would still blow genitalia in the ’12 season.. meaning we get another high draft pick in the ’13 draft. Which we use on O-line or WR.
Or something.
But if the Colts take Luck, they’ll be using the #1 pick on a back-up. Because he won’t supplant Manning. Its one of those ‘look toward the future!’ things.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
That's basically the entire arguement for taking Luck
‘We will suck in ’12, but we’ll be better later on!’ vs ’Let’s try and win with our current QB’
Which is exactly what the Colts are going to be going through.. Minus the.. sucking in ’12..
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm with Revenge and Chris
I wouldn’t mind having Luck, of course you’re right that having another good player is never a bad thing. But QB is so far down on our priority list that I can’t see drafting Luck unless there is an enormous drop-off in talent between him and the next best player available (seeing as we don’t even know for sure who will declare for this draft) AND we cannot get anything close to value in a trade.
The competition aspect
Is probably one of the main reasons they keep Joe around. Ponder knows that if he keeps slipping, they’re going to put Webb out there and if he does good enough, he might win the starting spot next year. Competition is never a bad thing, as long as it’s not volatile and causing locker room issues.
everyone wants instant success...
…there isn’t one QB in this league who could succeed on a consistent basis behind this OLine, let alone a rookie who got his first start mid-season.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I think we expect success because we haven't had to develop a QB since Culpepper.
With all the stop-gap QB’s we’ve signed, we’ve forgotten that rookies are rookies and will have their ups and downs. Some people are expecting Ponder to step in and play like a 10-year vet which in unrealistic.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
good point
to bridge another point earlier in this thread, how well is our QB coach doing with Ponder?? shame Musgrave isn’t in that position working with him.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I think Musgrave is in over his head as a coordinator.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
That being said, I think Frazier is in over his head as a head coach.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
That being said, I think Spielman is in over his head as a personnel director.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
i wonder if fans said the same thing about...
…Jimmy Johnson…
…Bill Walsh…
…Tom Landry…
…Chuck Noll…
not saying Frazier will eventually be in their company, but a bad record for a first-yr coach doesn’t necessarily indicate he is in over his head.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Could be, but I was having fun making those comments like that.
But I do think frazier and Company doesn’t have a real game plan for the games or for building a team.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
oh, i know you were just having fun
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Our QB Coach
Is the same guy who mentored Steve McNair and Vince Young in TN. He should know what he’s doing.
Of course, Mattnmics. If we have a shot at him, we should take him.
Then we will be holding some valuable assets for a trade, AND have a stud prototype passing qb.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
because we have wayyyyyyyyyy better needsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss slapnut :)
by cali viking on Dec 19, 2011 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
On Ponder
He played well until the hip injury. Give him some slack.
by Vikefandc on Dec 18, 2011 8:05 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Ponder has the talent, but demoralizing losses could ruin his future progress
My biggest concern with the meltdown is the damage it seems to doing to Ponder’s confidence. Not playing as he did in the start. Hope after this season he can come back with the attitude he started with. Rough time for the kid. Understand it’s an experiment, but if team loses confidence in coach or QB, it’s tough getting it back, even if it’s not all on him.
While Oline is a major need
So is D line. We are old and weak on both lines. Even if we torch NOLA for 30 today, we still lose easily.
by Vikefandc on Dec 18, 2011 8:07 PM CST via mobile reply actions
With our secondary our D-Line isn't going to look good
Hard to get the QB when WR can get open pretty much at will. I would say our top 10 priorities or so are all O-Line or secondary. Then getting a #1 WR. After that, then yes, D-Line could use some help.
For everyone who thinks our defensive coaches are ok
I suggest we look at the tackling or lack thereof. The Hendersons and Sapp showed they can tackle. Allen, obviously knows how to wrap up. The rest of the defense likes using their hands and their pads. Nice when it works, but it usually ends up costing us another 5-15 yrds because those hands and hits don’t knock the ball carrier to the ground. It’s pretty sad that one of the best form tacklers on the team has only been here a few weeks. Just goes to show that the defensive coaches are neglecting the Basics.
I don't think anyone here thinks the defensive coaches are okay.
We’ve pretty much all come to a consensus on that. Haha.
sure we have TONS of holes
but i am absolutely floored to see folks stating they would pass on “the surest college qb prospect” since elway for what we have seen from cp7. TAKE THE BLINDERS off
just mind boggling stuff
by los vikingos on Dec 18, 2011 8:35 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions 2 recs
I think you're the one with blinders on
You must have a personal vendetta against Ponder or something with your posts. I think in your hate for him you’ve missed the good that he’s shown. While he has had his down points, he has also had his ups. He is a rookie who is actually playing pretty well as far as rookie QBs go. If I remember right you were calling for his head after his second start, mind boggling stuff.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
It's not that we would pass on Luck
We just have way toomany holes on our team, trading the pick for Lick could bring us 3 first round picks and other draft choices. One player isn’t going to turn things around like three or four will.
Okay, let's entertain your theory
What if we were to draft another quarterback. . .and he has his struggles as a rookie, too?
Do we draft another quarterback the year after that?
What if that quarterback has his struggles as a rookie?
Do we draft another quarterback the year after that?
What if that quarterback has his struggles as a rookie?
Do we draft another quarterback the year after that?
What if that quarterback has his struggles as a rookie?
Do we draft another quarterback the year after that?
Do you see how non-sensical giving up on a rookie quarterback after eight starts is, or do I need to repeat that five or six more times?
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 18, 2011 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree giving up isnt the best idea...
But damn even Carolina looks better…
I think his point is, its working for other teams and at this point people are grabbing for whatever they can to think of ways it can work.
I dont think he has a personal vendetta against Ponder, but is fed up with the losing, as most of us are.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Of course Carolina looks better
Ponder =/= Cam Newton.
But that doesn’t mean Andrew Luck will be Cam Newton either. They also have Steve Smith who can actually be a #1 WR. And a better O-line. And decent RBs. That offense is pretty well off.
Its their defense that holds them back.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:14 PM CST up reply actions
this proves the point
And a better O-line.
an OLineman is more important than another QB.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Read his past posts
He has a vendetta
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Cost is a non issue as well. We are not paying a max contract to an established star qb.
It is actually a good time to take the rare opportunity to take a prospect of Luck’s caliber and then let him compete with Ponder to try to win the job. They won’t be paying those two quarterbacks half of what the Lions gave Stafford, or the Rams gave Bradford. And, Luck is a much better prospect than either of those 2 were coming out of college.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
The only problem is that by drafting Luck
We fail to address holes in this team and basically throw away our 2011 1st round pick. You can say it would be a QB competition but if they draft Luck that means they don’t have faith in Ponder and have given up on him.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Yep.
And then I will be angry. Because I didn’t want Ponder in the first place. That pick could have been used on Amukamara, damnet!
But I don’t think, even with his struggles, Ponder has been awful enough that the team would abandon ship so quickly. Although, I didn’t think they’d abandon ship on Joe Webb after last season either, and they pulled a U-y.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
yeah... b/c Luck can magically get the ball out of his hands in a half second to a WR who isn't there...
i think you’re missing the point, here.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
The situation is far from perfect.
Either way, we better make something out of our draft pick. But Andrew Luck, that deserves consideration.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
if we're in a position to get Luck...
…we are much better trading down to someone for a king’s ransom of draft picks.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I'm up for looking at all options in that situation, and leveraging the hell out of it.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
by krinkle on Dec 18, 2011 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Heh
Unless we get that #1 selection, the Colts will beat us to it.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, Andrew Luck or RG3 can get Greg Camarillo get open, and can turn Aromashadu into the next Jerry Rice. Supposedly.
by medicineball on Dec 18, 2011 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
I'm as fed up with losing as anybody
But the quick fix isn’t coming. Using that top pick on a QB again this year will set this team back further, because this team will still have a ton of holes that weren’t addressed.
I said it a week or two ago. . .Viking fans are too married to the “quick fix” mentality at the quarterback position. It’s not happening this time around.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 18, 2011 9:37 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
chris you are making thd incorrect assumption
that all QB prospects are the
same. you cannot compare ponder to luck, its not me saying it either. listen to any and all of the pundits (mel kipers of the world)
by los vikingos on Dec 18, 2011 9:47 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
The "Pundits"
Also said that Ryan Leaf would be a franchise quarterback for years to come.
The “pundits” actually debated whether or not Ryan Leaf or Peyton Manning should be the first player selected in the 1998 NFL Draft.
How are the “pundits” looking on that one?
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 18, 2011 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
good point
except, by any point of comparison, luck is a lot more like manning than leaf
by los vikingos on Dec 18, 2011 9:54 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
And after he gets drafted
He has just as good a chance of ending up like Leaf.
Is Andrew Luck going to make our secondary not freaking awful?
Is Robert Griffin III going to make our receivers magically able to beat press coverage?
Is Matt Barkley going to make our offensive line look less like bullfighters and more like actual football players?
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 18, 2011 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
absolutely right on with your point
if we are talikng about rg3 or barkley (toss up vs ponder)
but were talking about andrew luck. whole different level
by los vikingos on Dec 18, 2011 10:02 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Andrew Luck is going to fix all those issues?
Damn, he’s even better than I thought.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
Holy crap.
I had no idea that Andrew Luck knew how to play defensive back, wide receiver, AND o-line. If we get Luck, then we could just release our entire team except for Webb and Luck and just roll with that. I bet that’d finally make you happy.
Exactly
Ponder is not the problem. The offensive line is the problem and until it is retooled it would not matter if Aaron Rogers or Drew Brees quarterbacked for us, they would get killed every week just like Ponder. The front office needs to start building an offensive line in April 2012 with the great draft position they will have.
by TexasViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
chris i really really like your blog an posts, but
im telling you, you are pointblank wrong on this one. in the nfl as you know, having a franchise qb is by far the most important factor in having a dominant franchise for years (see brady, rodgers, brees, elway, etc…) luck, according to all if the pundits, has that kind of ceiling. ponder is clearly not that. one can never pass on that, not in todays nfl.
by los vikingos on Dec 18, 2011 9:44 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
How can you say Ponder is clearly not that?
What have you seen that for sure makes him a bust?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
by TroyW18 on Dec 18, 2011 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The pundits didn't have anything good to say about.....
Montana or Tom Brady either. For that matter, Johnny Unitas was written off until he demonstrated that he was the greatest quarterback of his time. On the other hand, the pundits loved Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell; where are they now.
We’ve seen Christian Ponder play and with a half way decent offensive line, I would put my money on him.
by TexasViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:27 PM CST up reply actions
So you ignore everything else?
Yeah, that’s wrong.
I guess I wasn't clear
Let me put it this way. I have nothing against Ponder, because as a person he’s a great guy. However, even before the Vikings drafted him, all I saw from scouting reports and his states in collage was a guy who wouldn’t be anything special in the NFL. I saw a guy who could be a starter, but wouldn’t be anything more then a game manager. Ponder isn’t a guy who can put a team on his back and win games in the clutch. With how the Vikings are set up, he doesn’t have to do that anyway. Now if we compare Ponder and Luck, there is a big difference in potential. Luck is bigger then Ponder, Luck has a stronger arm then Ponder and has shown he can make all the throws at the next level, Luck has better accuracy then Ponder, and Luck had a better collage career, then ponder. Now, just because Luck had a better collage career, does that mean he’s better then Ponder? Not necessarily, but Luck shows more promise, talent, potential, and readiness then any QB coming out in a long time. Could Luck turn out as a bust? you bet your a** he could, but from all I’ve seen of Luck, he shows more promise then Ponder, from comparing the two of them.
by mattnmics on Dec 18, 2011 9:53 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Agreed, that is just the straight scoop on it.
I think people are defensive about Ponder because they want to hitch their wagon to something.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
It's more than that
Taking Luck, while seemingly good for the future, doesn’t fill any of the huge, gaping holes on the team that could use the major talent injection such a high pick offers.
It also makes last year’s pick look like a total waste. When we could have gotten a player who could inject talent into one of our many glaring, apparent holes.
Ponder also has played well enough that, I think, you have to give him the best opportunity you can to succeed. Drafting Luck doesn’t help with that in the least.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
Trading away the Luck pick is like trading away AD
Makes sense in that you fill other holes, but at too big a cost.
by mg7505 on Dec 18, 2011 10:45 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Wow
A guy who has shown nothing in the league is like a guy who is the best in the league at his position? Wow.
Um, read the dialogue elsewhere on this thread.
I’m not going to repeat my arguments, or those made by others.
There is no possible argument
That Luck and AP are comparable. No matter what you think of Luck’s potential, AP as already achieved.
No way. Not even close.
Firstly, Luck is a QB, and, as you are proving, is very much in demand. QBs net waaaay more than RB’s not named Herschel Wa He-who-shall-not-be-named.
If we can get a huge bounty for the Luck pick that would go, arguably, just as far at achieving long-term success (assuming the picks turn out to be good ones) as taking Andrew Luck.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
But Luck is like Jesus, Bhudda and Muhommed all rolled into one.
Take that Tebow.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Damn, I didn't know that Luck was a better "collage" artist than Ponder...
I found one that he made…
I will not be PONDERing anything, ever again....I'm so tired of this pun. Maybe we could use antonyms to be different, like: "FORGET about last season, as we COGITATE about winning in 2011!"...Whatever, SKOL VIKES!!!
Agreed and
And isnt this what hindered Detroit for so long..they kept taking Wr’s year after year with the top pick
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
i like pie.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
by rj-b on Dec 18, 2011 9:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How many times has Ponder banged your girlfriend?
Did he set your house on fire? Steal your dog? Bump into you and not apologize? Anything? Something had to have happened between you two.
Btw, no such thing as a sure college prospect. Why do none of the comments that actually make sense and are intelligent arguments get rec’d but ones like this do?
Probably because
The people making the intelligent posts don’t feel the need to high five each other when they agree.
by Amrius on Dec 19, 2011 1:34 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
One day too late for Amy Poehler on SNL.
She does a great impression.
by Caretaker QB on Dec 18, 2011 9:41 PM CST up reply actions
Ponder now up to 132 career attempts
The magic number is 1,000, so he is still a long way away. Let’s hope he can get to 200 by season’s end and stay healthy.
Let’s trade out of our draft slot and pick up multiple picks. We have gaping holes at OL, DB, LB, DL, and WR.
If nobody wants to trade for our #2 pick, fine, draft Luck or RG3 and then trade his rights for picks.
This season is DEFINITELY not Ponder's fault. In fact, he is amazing for a rookie
As people will recall, this team was going nowhere before Ponder ever took the field. The season was lost before he went under center.
Second, as a rookie, Ponder has 13 TD and 12 INT.
To repeat, a rookie quarterback has more passing touchdowns than interceptions, and his team is 2-12. Christian Ponder is playing stupendously considering the team he is on.
That is PHENOMENAL. Christian Ponder is playing unbelievable for a rookie. If he had the team Cam Newton is on, he would be going to the playoffs and would be rookie of the year.
I'm a huge ponder backer as well but
Numbers lie. Ponder did not play well today compared to the standard he has previously established. Both TDs were on screen passes to gerhart so let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
by Coolio12 on Dec 18, 2011 10:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Let's not go that far.
I don’t think Ponder would be having the success in Carolina that Newton is. Newton has an absolute cannon for an arm. That fits in well with what they’re doing offensively. Ponder’s more of that WCO accurate short-to-intermediate passer.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
I'm trying
but I think he’s screening my calls now.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:47 PM CST up reply actions
A few points
1. We aren’t going to get the #1 pick.
2. If we did, drafting Luck wouldn’t be at the expense of building our offensive line. We’d miss on Martin, Kalil, and perhaps Reiff, but nearly every other tackle and every guard except DeCastro would be available with our #33 pick, in addition to a boatload of receivers.
3. If we rebuild our offensive line and grab a good receiver or two, and Ponder still makes poor decisions, misses reads, and doesn’t keep his eyes downfield (like he did today) – then what? This is one of the most loaded QB drafts in recent memory (Luck, RG3, Barkley, Moore, Foles, Weeden, etc.). It’s tough to imagine that we’d pass up grabbing at least one of those guys.
4. Unrelated to above, but I hope we grab LaMichael James. Because of his size, he’ll drop like a rock in the draft. But he is unbelievably quick, shifty, and surprisingly strong. I think he could be the next Sproles.
"Sports don't build character, they reveal it."
I dunno, the Colts are showing signs of life
It could get contagious and they might win out. Their next couple games aren’t all that daunting. The Texans, without Schuab, and the Jags, without a decent QB.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
There is no, no way we take anyone of those guys besides Luck, and I don’t think we’ll even do that. But seriously, Foles? Weeden? They’ve got even less of a chance to be great than Ponder.
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
Best hope
The VIKINGS BEST HOPE is that Zygi gets so pissed at this 2-14 team he sells a house and HIRES the TUNA, and Billichek to give him some advice on hiring a GM and a new head coach. Hey he can even ask Jared A for some advice. I think Jared is tired of how things are being operated too.
If we pick #1, draft Luck and trade either Ponder or Webb – whoever gets us more in return.
by mg7505 on Dec 18, 2011 10:43 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Yuck, yuck, yuck.
Eugh. Just thinking about that.. makes me feel sick. We will essentially have traded that #12 pick for whatever we get for Ponder. Which probably will be like a 2nd rounder.
A 2011 first rounder for a mere 2012 2nd? That is a fireable offense right there.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:46 PM CST up reply actions
Trading away the next Elway so you can keep a slightly-above-average QB is also fireable
And let’s remember: you can take a stud OLineman with the #1 pick, or even a stud WR or CB … but none of those individuals makes as much of an impact as ONE franchise quarterback.
by mg7505 on Dec 18, 2011 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
HAH! The next Elway.
Please. Can we not crown him a HOFer already? Good lord.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
-1
No one is crowning him anything except the best QB prospect – again, PROSPECT – in a long time. How is that ANY different than crowning the savior of our OLine or secondary, which is what you’re doing when you say to trade the #1 pick for help elsewhere?
Because he didn’t say the next Elway-type prospect, he said the next Elway
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
OK, I said Elway. The same way people are calling Kalil the next [insert name of epically good OLineman]. How is believing that Luck can be a QB savior any different from believing an OL or DB prospect can be a savior at their position? Aren’t they just as likely to be a bust?
But let’s assume they’re all equally likely to reach their max potential. I’d still rather have Elway than the greatest LT or DB ever.
by mg7505 on Dec 18, 2011 10:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I never even mentioned Kalil
And you’re right, if they both reached their full potential Luck would be more valuable. But we took a risk, made an investment, and if we don’t allow it time to develop we’re not doing our due diligence. It’s like opening a retirement account with $500, never putting a penny into it, and declaring that you’ll never have enough to retire. The Vikings need to give Ponder and Frazier time and just not panic
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 10:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, Ponder will still be on the team. Since we’re not even thinking about playoffs for the next few years, this is the time to grab the best possible prospect. The fact that we made a moderate-ceiling investment last year doesn’t mean we should ignore one of the highest-ceiling-ever investments if it falls into our lap.
Maybe a team will make us an offer we can’t refuse for Luck – and I’d be totally open to that. But it would have to be HUGE.
Based on you love for Luck, a deal like that seems like a good possibility doesn’t it. Some team with managers as successful as ours will spend the picks
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
The difference is
We didn’t se the #12 pick last year on those positions.
A #12 pick is a small price to pay for a prospect with that high of a ceiling. EVERY move carries a risk, even getting a proven young player in free agency. It would suck short-term, but it’s only one pick, and you can still trade it for something (even if it’s lesser value).
No, it's not
This is how teams lose decades. They try to be superb at one position rather than good at all positions.
Yeah, but that one position is QB, and we’re talking about a prospect like Luck. Plus we’re not trading away anything to get him – we would still have ALL the other picks at the top of each round. So at the end of the day you lose the 2011 first-round pick … and that’s it. And even that you could trade for a 2nd or 3rd rounder in the future.
No, we don't "lose the 2011 first round pick"
We score the top rated college qb of the millenium.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
2011 first-round pick = Ponder (whom we “lose”).
2012 first-round pick = Luck (whom we “score”).
We’re on the same side of this argument … unlike amiller92.
Even so, we don't "lose Ponder"
We can use him or trade him, he has value to us either way.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
We lose him in the sense that his value
has greatly depreciated. He goes from a 1st round draft pick to a.. whatever we get. Meaning he becomes a ‘loss.’
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
Drafting Luck does not depreciate
Ponder’s value to another team, or ours.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Hell yes it does
Soon as Luck is drafted, the offered price for Ponder drops because they know we’ll be trying to get rid of him.
Not to say we actually will, if the price is too low, but they’ll know Ponder isn’t as valuable to us then, and they’ll offer less.
But I don’t think you understand what I meant.
I meant that Ponder was a 1st round selection last year. That means, to get even value for his selection, we would need to get another 1st rounder, or we will have suffered a ‘loss’ of draft-value.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
Kevin kolb was a back up 2nd round pick
He fetched a starting quality former 1st round cb AND a 2012 2ndround pick. His value went up after Micheal Vick beat him out for the starting qb spot in Philly. That is because other teams had a need for a potential starting quality qb.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Kolb also had
back-to-back 300 yard passing games when he got the chance to start for the Eagles, and he only lost his job in Philly because Vick got hot.
In a way, it was the perfect situation for Kolb to fall in. His major flaws weren’t exposed over the course of a season, and he showed some flashes to raise his potential.
If he went through a stretch similar to what Ponder has, he wouldn’t have gone for DRC + a 2nd rounder.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Guys, guys … I didn’t literally mean “lose” Ponder – I myself have said we can and should trade him if Luck pans out, even for a 2nd, 3rd or 4th rounder. So the main point is still the same – didn’t get the most out of the 2011 first rounder, but that’s a small price to pay for striking gold with the 2012.
Yeah, totally
I’d agree with that. I’d take Elway over Deion Sanders.
Problem is.. Luck =/= Elway. Could he? Sure. Will he? Unlikely. I don’t care how hyped up he is.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
Universal consensus means nothing
as pointed out earlier in the case of Lienart
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
… so universal consensus on an OLine or CB prospect means nothing either, right? The fact that they’re higher priority also doesn’t mean much, because we still have high picks in subsequent rounds to spend on them.
Though if you’ve read any posts here on our draft history you may recall that the Vikings simply cannot draft well ater round1
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 11:13 PM CST up reply actions
Lienart was not universal concensus.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
right, Lienart should not be in the same sentence as Luck.
That being said, Leinart showed that he has made strides, then he got injured. Oh well, back to the hot tub…where is chmura?
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I wouldn't say its by universal consesus
Although I would love to take advantage of this perception and trade that pick away to set up the rest of the team for the future.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
It would have to be a HUGE deal. Enough to immediately rebuild OLine and secondary (at least two top-notch players/picks at each position).
It wouldn't be immediate
Teams only have 1 1st rounder, usually. And the ones with multiple picks this year aren’t in the market for a QB.
But it would be substantial. I have a feeling teams would pay out the ass for the next can’t-miss prospect. Hell, look at what Atlanta gave up for the 2nd best WR this last draft. We can get off with a pretty damn good deal, I think.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
Well, it certainly would be then
I can’t imagine it would be anything less than that teams’ ’12 1st and 2nd rounder, and their ’13 1st and 2nd rounder.
4 Starters for the price of 1? Deal!
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:17 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I kind of exaggerated
I don’t think a team would mortgage themselves that much for him. Definitely a 2012 1st and 2nd and a 2013 1st though.
That last 2nd rounder might turn into like a conditional 3rd or 4th or something. I dunno.
Now that I’ve convinced you of it, it seems like too much lol.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
You didn’t convince me of anything – I had that opinion already. But yeah, it seems unreasonable … right up until some GM actually makes the offer. And that would be sweet.
If I wanted something like that..
first team I’d hit up is the Browns. They’ve got the picks to spare on such a deal apparently, which I think would make it far more likely.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
talk about losing arguments...
How is believing that Luck can be a QB savior any different from believing an OL or DB prospect can be a savior at their position? Aren’t they just as likely to be a bust?
pretty sure Top 5 drafted OT’s have a better success rate in the NFL than Top 5 drafted QB’s.
would you like to rephrase the question…??
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
If Tebow wins the super bowl, and Elway still has a chance to take Luck,
he would take luck and make tebow compete with him for the starting job. Then he would trade Tebow to the highest bidder.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
by krinkle on Dec 18, 2011 10:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Probably not
But even so, Tebow has obvious and perhaps insurmountable deficiencies in his game. Ponder doesn’t.
^^ this
an off-season is all it will take for teams to figure out how to beat Tebow (see: Vick, Michael).
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
all the more reason why DC's will be able to figure him out easier
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Because we aren't.
We’re talking about getting other positions up to the Ponder level of “good with chance for more.”.
Your talking about betting on great at one position, with good with chance for more on the bench.
If we were contending now, or even two years from now, I’d go with the “get every position up to decent” approach. But we’re still in total-rebuild mode. Which means use the pick on the QB, and not the OLine or CB. Especially when the QB has that kind of ceiling, and you have a dang good QB already under center if he’s a bust.
This makes no sense
If we are total rebuild, trade for more pick and address more problems.
You have no idea if he's going to be the next Elway.
For all we all know, he could be the next Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell.
If we end up with a better QB for a decade it could easily be worth it in the long run.
by CanadianViking on Dec 18, 2011 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
THIS. Thank you. Finally someone who gets it.
And what’s the worst that could happen? We have BOTH Luck and Ponder on the roster? How is that a bad thing? And all we would give up to do that is one OLineman or DB?
The worst that could happen
IS that both pan out and we still haven’t addressed the line, the defensive backfield and WR and thus we still can’t win. See, Detroit.
… and then we still have high picks to build the team up around Luck one year from now. How is that a bad thing? Neither Luck nor Ponder is going to the playoffs next year anyway.
Because at minimum
One position is unaddressed with a high pick. And considering what we can get for trading down its likely 4 starters we don’t get.
As I have said above, there ARE trade scenarios I would consider for Luck – such as 2 more 1st rounder and 2 more 2nd rounders at high positions. But they would have to be at least that big.
What about 3 first rounders?
That’s the minimum I’d accept for the Luck pick
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Nobody's giving up 3
I think 2 is the max you could get, in terms of 1st rounders. Maaaaybe consecutive 2nd rounders, but I don’t know.
If its a team like the Browns that has extra picks to burn, it would be alot more likely than if it were, say, Washington or Miami.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that'd be sexy.
Mmm draft picks.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
that's the entire point...
…teams would have to give up that much for the #1 pick (which, again, we likely will not be slotted in at, so this entire discussion is most likely moot).
whoever has the #1 pick in April can auction it off for what would probably end up being three or four starting-caliber players.
take a look at Baltimore. Joe friggin’ Flacco under center, and they’re in a position for a 1st rd bye. why?? b/c they have a well-built TEAM — not an elite [projected] QB.
the Texans just clinched last week and they’ve used 3 different QBs this season — obviously you haven’t seen their OLine.
we are rebuilding and desperately need can’t-miss players at multiple positions. take the picks.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
by rj-b on Dec 19, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
Superstar QBs are nice, but they’re by no means able to do it all themselves. Even Manning needs some help from his friends.
Brady seems to be the exception where he can just make anything happen with average WRs or amazing ones. But Luck isn’t being compared to Brady.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Then what are we talking about?
I didn’t think anyone is In favor of just picking someone else first.
The question is pick him or trade down. There will be nice packages available in trade.
Shit, that's no question.
You trade down. For all you can get. With the team this bad, you need all those high-round choices to try and shore up the lack of young talent. That’s worth just as much as an Andrew Luck when you already have a capable starter.
And you’re trying to, you know, secure public approval with a fieldable team instead of the current garbage.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually,
the worst that could happen would be that neither of them pan out and we still haven’t addressed the line, DBs, and WRs. Which is just as likely (if not more likely) to happen as Luck becoming the best QB ever.
"IF," though...
You just can’t know. Honestly I hope Luck fails just so people understand that there is no such thing as a guarantee
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
Why would you wish for anyone to fail?
Luck is just as likely to fail as the next OL or DB prospect you guys are crowning as the savior at their respective positions. Why not just hope they all fail?
And for the record
I think if we have the number 1 pick we should trade down and get the “#2” guy at each position and give them time to develop as well
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
Again, this is a false comparison
Thse guys don’t gave to be saviors. They just have to be good. Like Ponder.
Exactly
Is Chad Clifton a savior? Jordy Nelson? Tramon Williams? James Starks? Sorry to bring up the Pack, but no, they’re not. They’ve improved over the years and they gel. Thats how you build a team
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
Around a great qb, not a pretty good qb.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
But Rodgers wasn’t the consensus “next-Elway” coming out of college either. He devloped like almost every great QB
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
This Vikings staff has zero track record of developing a great QB (even Musgrave). So I’d rather they pick the QB with the most potential.
And yes, you can get by with above-average players at every position except QB, where in this era you need an absolute stud to win it all.
.. Maybe that's because they've only had, like, 8 weeks
to groom their great QB.
I wouldn’t use that arguement. Its just waaay too soon to condemn this Vikings staff’s developing abilities. I don’t think we have the same offensive staff as Childress did.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
See, again, you're wrong
You don’t need a absolute stud to win it all. If hat were right Manning would have fats full of rings.
Eli’s not an absolute stud. Nor Big Ben. Nor Brad Johnson nor Dilfer.
Big Ben is an absolute stud
And Eli’s pretty damn good too
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Eli is still washy
He’s great one week, not so great the next.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
Um yeah but Eli had a dang good D.
I doubt we (or any other team in the foreseeable future) will have that kind of D. They also got EXTREMELY lucky – exception, not the rule. Especially in the league now.
He had 3 years behind Favre. And the coaches remade his throwing motion.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Or trade #1
Which is worth at least three times as much.
Problem is we have way to may holes
We are not ging to go from 3-13 or 2-14 to a playoff team in one year. We have holes at S (need both FS and SS), at linebacker, CB – need two – and D line (desperately need a run stopper). So we need six players on D.
On offense, we are weak at QB, RT, RG, LT. We still struggle to pick up blitzes because our RB’s don’t block well (although AD has improved a lot this year). We are going to be thin at TE and need a big play receiver. So we need at least 2 OL, a WR, a second QB, and another TE. That’s 5 offensive players.
We can seriously upgrade our secondary through FA signings. Lots of DBs available and almost all would be a step up.
What we need to focus on is some impact players like LT, DT, WR in the draft. Then use later picks to add depth at LB, DB, TE and take best available athletes. I would look at FA QBs like Campbell or Orton and let then fight it out with Ponder and let the best man
We could also target 1 or 2 big name FA’s Like a WR or safety. This would give us the best chance to upgrade our roster and get younger.
by Vikefandc on Dec 18, 2011 11:02 PM CST via mobile reply actions
hahaha
“But Ponder is, still, the future of the franchise at the quarterback position. All you folks out there that are still under the impression that the Minnesota Vikings would spend a top three pick on a quarterback in the 2012 Draft need to a) get your heads out of the sand, and b) take a look at all the other damn holes this team has to fill.”
Let me preface this by saying that Ponder was doing just fine up until a few weeks ago, and I’m not here to trash him. But to not even open up the possibility that he might not be the answer is ridiculous. He was 4-13 for 18 yards today when the game was competitive. He committed 4 turnovers in 2 1/2 quarters of play last week, and had another fumble get recovered by his own team. I like the way he’s played at times, but sheesh he has done absolutely nothing to sit here and say he’s the be-all and end-all of the QB position for the Minnesota Vikings. If they can do better than him, they should.
No you’re right, I need to get my head out of the sand. 4-13 for 18 yards with some of the most skittish feet in the pocket I’ve ever seen…you’re right, no need to look anywhere else. This team was around zero net passing yards in the 3rd quarter, but that must be everyone else’s fault.
I’ll be the first to admit this offensive line is garbage, these receivers are terrible and Musgrave had a high school gameplan today. But I don’t really care. Ponder is regresssing before our very eyes, and it’d be stupid to ignore it. That’s not to bury him, but to be realistic. If Minnesota, somehow, were to get the #1 pick, and they were to determine that Andrew Luck is a better prospect, they should absolutely draft him. No, it wouldn’t fix the offensive line, the secondary or the receiving corps. But it’s hard to get a really good QB in this league, and it makes building your team tons easier when you have one. The Eagles got a starting-caliber corner and a 2nd round pick for Kevin Kolb, so having two valuable QBs on your roster is not a bad thing. You can always flip one for other assets.
The bigger issue here, really, is what a joke this coaching staff is. Everyone in a power position is one step over their heads. Frazier is a good defensive coordinator, but has been a disaster as a head coach. Musgrave was a good QB coach but a disaster as an offensive coordinator. Pagac was a good LB coach but a disaster as a defensive coordinator. It’s time to bring in some professionals to straighten this out. I’d be in favor of hiring someone like Jeff Fisher, who I don’t think is great but would at least bring a sense of professionalism to this team. What I saw today was not a professional outfit. Musgrave’s gameplan was a complete joke, one of the worst I’ve seen from an NFL team. Incorporating Joe Webb to run college plays, relying on Harvin screens as the bulk of the passing game, dressing Peterson but not actually using him…what kind of a joke is this.
by frank_grimes on Dec 18, 2011 11:05 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
I don’t think anyone, myself included, thinks Luck shouldn’t at least be considered, but rather that the alternative is the better decision
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 18, 2011 11:09 PM CST up reply actions
Okay, fine
Let’s take Luck or Barkley or RG III.
Let’s trot him out there behind the same garbage offensive line.
Let’s force him to throw on pretty much every play because nobody in the secondary can cover their own damn shadow.
Let’s force him to throw to guys that couldn’t beat press coverage or get open in a zone if their lives depended on it.
And then when he sucks or gets hurt, everyone can whine about how we should have taken Matt Kalil or Justin Blackmon or Morris Claiborne rather than wasting a first-round pick on a quarterback for the second year in a row.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 18, 2011 11:09 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Well, I'm sure they'd use their other selections on those areas of need
But your point is a good one all the same.
If people weren’t bitching about not taking Blackmon/Kalil/whoever, they’d be bitching about how we didn’t take Amukamara/Fairley/whoever in ’11 instead of Ponder.
The FO just can’t win picking by Luck.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:14 PM CST up reply actions
Of course it doesn’t have to be the same offensive line, secondary and wide receivers. The Vikings will also have a high 2nd round pick, and a high 3rd round pick, and you can get good players in all of those rounds. The Cardinals once drafted Fitzgerald, Dansby and Dockett 1-2-3. I know the Vikings don’t seem to do this very often, but it is possible to hit in rounds past the first.
Not to mention free agency and trades are other routes to improve your team. And I think, no matter what, the Vikings are going to need at least two offseasons to fix this mess. I just don’t think Ponder should be treated with kid gloves. He’s been bad these past two weeks, and I find that disconcerting. I’d feel a lot better if he were progressing, not regressing. He’s got two more weeks, though. If he plays well, I’ll have no problem with him being the starter next season. But if he continues to play like hot garbage, then I see no reason to make him the unquestioned franchise player.
I would love to get a stud left tackle, which could kill two birds with one stone by forcing Charlie Johnson to another position where he’d be better suited. I’d love to add about six different defensive backs, and cut every single one on the roster currently sans Winfield. I’d love to get rid of every single receiver sans Harvin. But let’s be honest…it’s easier to fill those positions than it is QB. If this team were to have an opportunity at Luck (not Barkley or Griffin, who I don’t think they should consider), they should definitely consider it. I’m not saying they should do it, but I’m also not going to put Ponder on a pedestal. Not after these past two weeks.
by frank_grimes on Dec 18, 2011 11:19 PM CST up reply actions
So, uh..
when Luck struggles behind this shoddy O-line and with the shoddy WR’s.. what then?
Should we draft the next ‘OMG BEST QB EVAR!’ in ’13?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
I'm still waiting for pundits to apologize for Gabbert
This guy was the consensus #1 ranked QB on all the lists, supposedly the can’t-miss, franchise QB. And he’s turned out to be the worst 1st round QB selected last year.
Mayock, you have disappointed me.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
u might as well be FRANK RIZZO :)))))))))))))))
by cali viking on Dec 19, 2011 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
The Colts have Peyton Manning, one of the greatest QBs of all time
And they’ll kick his ass straight to the curb for Andrew Luck. Passing on Luck because of Christian Ponder would be insanity in its purest form.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
LOL No they won't
They’ll throw aside a sure-fire HoF’er for an unproven rookie? I highly, highly, hiiiighly doubt it.
If they take Luck, they’ll sit his ass behind Peyton and ride the golden child’s arm until it, or his neck, falls off.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 18, 2011 11:26 PM CST up reply actions
Peyton never walks onto another field..
Unless hes in a suit and tossing a coin…
Sorry, I dont see him coming back from his injury.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Really?
Because, uh.. he’s already been throwing, in pads, after Colts’ practices. Seems to me he’s determined to come back. He’s been cleared to throw by his doctors.
And its not as though he gets hit a whole lot, he has a quick release.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
I dont think he will be back on the field.
Sorry, should i agree with you next time?
Cause I dont.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Well, that doesn't matter much.
We’ll see who’s right come next season. But the fact he’s starting to throw in pads would suggest that he will be back on the field again.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
throwing in pads
and having a 300lbs man throw you to the ground in pads are two diff things. I just hope they draft a QB regardless instead of waiting on him.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Well, if his injury was that serious
I doubt he’d have even been cleared. My money is on Peyton returning next season.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:34 PM CST up reply actions
'Cause, I mean..
Its not like they don’t know he’s a professional football player. They’re well aware he’s going to be thrown around on the field at times.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:35 PM CST up reply actions
The one minor difference
Is that Manning turns 36 in March and has just had major neck surgery.
Drafting 22-year old Andrew Luck to replace 36-year old Peyton Manning after a 14-year NFL career and a major surgery is genius.
Drafting 22-year old Matt Kalil to potentially upgrade your entire offensive line is genius.
Drafting 22-year old Justin Blackmon to get a guy that can actually get off of a jam at the line of scrimmage is genius.
Drafting 22-year old Morris Claiborne to upgrade one of the worst secondaries in the history of the NFL is genius
Drafting 22-year old Andrew Luck to replace Christian Ponder after 8 NFL starts for the worst team in Minnesota Vikings franchise history is stupidity.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
"Drafting Andrew Luck" and "stupidity" do not belong in the same sentence
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
by free7694 on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
They do
If the biggest holes on your roster involve the offensive line, the wide receiving corps, and the defensive backfield and you draft a quarterback in the first round for the second year in a row anyway.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 12:26 AM CST up reply actions
You know what was stupidity?
Drafting Christian Ponder with the 12th overall pick of the 2011 Draft. I mean, he’s ok, but do you honestly see him getting that much better? He was never anything special at Florida State, and he won’t be in the NFL. He’ll never be better than above-average-to-good, and that’s not the quarterback play you need to win a championship. I’m a big believer in taking the best player available in the draft, and Ponder was certainly not the best player available when we made our selection. We made a mistake last year in the draft, the best thing to do is to admit it and if we have the first pick this year, take the best player available: Andrew Luck.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
by free7694 on Dec 19, 2011 12:49 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree! Drafting Ponder was stupid.
But they did draft him. Adding Luck to Ponder and Webb when we need to protect the QB and give him someone to throw to is even stupider. Fill the holes and if in a couple of years we suck badly enough we can draft the next ’can’t miss prospect’ but by then we will at least have some pieces in place for him to be successful.
This
There are always can’t miss prospects that are compared to HOF’s. Even Ponder, who obviously wasen’t as hyped as Luck, was compared to Steve Young at times. We have too many holes to fill to use a pick on a position that has been adequate and improving.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Damn, you can see into the future?
What’s the next winning powerball numbers, man?
Please, you can’t legitimately tell me that Ponder will never be better than above average. How about we actually give him the opportunity to show that before we write him off.
He’s shown, even with this craptastic offensive unit, a handful of plays each game that hint at some promise. He’s also made dumb, terrible mistakes. Why you are so eager to kick him to the curb for the ‘next big thing’ in the draft, I don’t get. Each draft has guys like Luck that are going to follow in the footsteps of some NFL great. You’ve fallen into the hype-monster’s jaws!
Given our history with the 2nd round and beyond in draft choices, odds are that Luck will be playing behind the same crappy O-line and with the same crappy WRs that Ponder is right now. Which means he’ll probably go through the same crappy stretch of games. Will you be saying he’ll never be better than above average or good then too?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
So apparently,
Andrew Luck is a shoo in for the Hall of Fame?
People just looove to buy into the hype. The dude’s not going to come in and lead us to the promised land on his magical wish-granting right arm. You need someone to throw the ball to and someone to protect that person throwing the ball. Unless Andrew Luck comes with a jetpack to float over the defenders and farts out talent powder to make everyone else around him superstars, he’s no sure thing. Maybe he becomes the next big bust. Then I would have to say that “drafting Andrew Luck” and “stupidity” belonged in the same sentence. Honestly, he has a better chance of becoming anywhere from a bust to a decent QB who never lived up to his potential, than he does of becoming the next Dan Marino.
by SirGrizzly on Dec 19, 2011 1:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
honest to God, people have no common sense nowadays...
i was going to point this out had you not already done so, Chris:
Manning turns 36 in March and has just had major neck surgery.
there is a WORLD of difference between the Colts drafting Luck and the possibility of the Vikes doing the same after drafting Ponder last yr.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I'm still hoping they decide to try and win-now
and take like.. Kalil. So we can trade away the Luck pick and set our team up for the futures.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
The comparison should be San Deigo
Who had Drew Brees and drafter Philip Rivers.
Rivers is a very good QB, but that was a terrible decision. The already had a guy who was more than capable of getting them a championship, and they let him walk. How much better would that team be had they addressed other needs instead?
by amiller92 on Dec 19, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
wondeful example
hit the nail right on the head.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
There would be a lot of merit to drafting Luck, if the opportunity is there.
None of the experts would disagree with that.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Seriously, enough luck talk
The vikings would be lucky as hell to get the second pick of the draft…I’m tired talk of a prospect we won’t draft..how about talk about someone likely draft…PLEASE ENOUGH LUCK
by Night_Hawker5000 on Dec 19, 2011 12:02 AM CST via mobile reply actions
... can't ... get ... enough ... Luck ...
WE MUST DRAFT HIM
(only partially kidding)
Sam Bowie???
The player that I would like the Vikings to draft in the first round, is Matt Kahlil. That said, Andrew Luck has been called the best prospect since John Elway. Switching to basketball for a minute, everyone wonders how Portland could have drafted Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. What if Andrew Luck is the next Michael Jordan of football. Minnesota will be the team that drafted Sam Bowie. Considering all the hoopla surrounding Luck, this isn’t that far-fetched.
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 12:28 AM CST via mobile reply actions
There is no Michael Jordan of football
That seems to be a key underlying error. one guy can’t have the same kind of impact as in basketball. Not even a QB.
One more than us ;)
Manning is an example of how a great QB can will a team to victory. He had a pretty good support cast during the super bowl year, but as you say, one man is often not enough. Even at the most important position. Marino comes to mind.
That's only, what, 4 or 5 less than Jordan?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
The Colts...
…. were 10-6 last year and 14-2 the year prior. If they have Peyton Manning this year, they wouldn’t be dreaming about Luck but would be battling for playoff positioning.
And look at the Bears this year. Cutler goes down and they can’t even win a game much less salvage what was a surefire playoff spot go down in flames.
Yeah, QBs are important
I think you shot yourself in the foot there by bringing in Cutler too. Cutler is certainly no Manning, but he’s an above average (I threw up writing that, I think) QB in the league. And his team was going to make it to the post-season same as the Colts surely would have.
And if anything is true, it’s that anything happens in the playoffs in the NFL. Hell, how do you think the Jets have managed to get to the AFC Champ game the last 2 years in a row? Or the Seahawks to take down the Saints last year.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
It should be no problem
For Ponder to match Cutler.
Cutler...
…. has about as much time in the pocket as Ponder does. Cutler knows how to make better pre-snap reads and unloads the ball much quicker.
Cutler had more time in the pocket
Maybe against the Lions he didn’t, but the offensive line was playing much, much better after that game.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
Key stats for that one...
Cutler: 28 years old, 6th year in the league.
Ponder: 23 years old, 1st year in the league.
The two situations can’t be compared because Cutler has actually been given time in this league to learn how to do those things. Ponder has played in 9 games so far in his career. As opposed to Cutler’s 78 games played.
Pass attempts for Cutler’s career: 2,521
Pass attempts for Ponder’s career: 268
Cutler also has 117 TD passes in his career to Ponder’s 13. That must mean that Cutler is just naturally wayyyyy better at throwing TD passes than Ponder is. Couldn’t be the time in the league. Since they obviously should be judged on the exact same level right now.
can everyone stop bringing up the Elway bit??
it’s only proving that you all are getting your opinions from ESPN.
regurgitate more, please — i don’t think i’ve heard the same thing 14 times already.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I don't even think its an accurate analogy.
Elway had a beastly arm. Like.. a friggin’ cannon. Literal cannon. Luck’s no slouch in arm strength, but.. he’s definitely not Elway.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
And Elway was no Bert Jones
An arm is necessary to make accurate throws. Now if you are talk about trying out for the javelin, then…
How about FOUR first-round picks?
Trade Peterson for both New England’s first rounders, then trade the Vikings high first for Cincinnati’s two first-rounders. Draft two top offensive linemen and two top receivers. Then cornerbacks the rest of the draft.
Your just making a different hole there
AP is a young QBs best friend. He makes them play 7 or 8 in the box, leaving receivers in man on the outside. Why would you make a young QB read a cover 2/3/prevent zone and try to find holes when you can make it easy on them?
31 other NFL teams get by without Adrian Peterson
Most of them have better records than the Minnesota Vikings. Green Bay has very average running backs. New England has very average running backs. They great records without AP. However, a great team WITH Peterson suddenly becomes a Superbowl favorite. That’s the only reason the Pats might give up two first round picks.
If the Vikings could actually get four first round picks, they could accomplish in one draft what we all want. They could fix the offensive line, get two legit wideouts, and then spend the rest of the draft on defensive backs. In ONE DRAFT they could bring the Vikings back to respectability.
Obviously there are counter arguments, but none of them get the team what it really needs, which is an influx of top talent at multiple positions. Without a radical move (or two) the Vikings will have a losing record for years. Plus, ask yourself this question: How many games did AP “win” for the Vikings this year? Yeah, it’s a team game, I know, but without a good offensive line even AP couldn’t force a win. On the other hand, teams with a great offensive line have better records than Minnesota, and they do it without AP.
By the way, I like AP, and I hate the Patriots. But trading AP to the Pats would make him very happy, because he’d be on a perennial contender for the rest of his career. Right now, on this Vikings team, that ain’t gonna happen.
They won't give up 2 1st rounders
for a RB who’s been in the league for 5 years. Their offense isn’t even really built around running. They wouldn’t utilize him as best they could, because that show revolves around Brady. Trust me, they’re not going to be as interested in AD as you think. That’s why they’ve been happy with Green-Ellis and Woodhead.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Holy crap
I came on here expecting to see allll kinds of Ponder vs. Webb debates. I had NO idea that it would be a Ponder vs. Luck debate.
Tell me about it
Always trying to find something to blame or fix things so they can feel better about the current situation. Fantasy football fanatics can’t stop micromanaging things ;)
by VikesFanSince1967 on Dec 19, 2011 4:53 AM CST up reply actions
No kidding.
It’s all fine and dandy to speculate, but the Vikings aren’t getting a crack at Luck. Indy will make sure of that.
Indy's next 2 games are better than our's.
Would you rather play the Jags and Texans, or the ’Skins and Bears?
They just beat Tennessee, who is a better team than any of those. And with our secondary, even Caleb Hanie is a threat.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
If Indy's....
…. next two games are against the Washington Generals, they’d still make it a point to lose.
Naw
The Jags are pretty much just as awful as Indy with Gabbert under center.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
Not that Ponder....
…. has been given reason to have any faith in the O-Line, but it did seem to my eyes that he was so skittish that he exacerbated the O-Line problems by actually moving into trouble. I guess tha’ts what happens when running the ball is off the menu.
The Saints game was the first time I've seen him skittish in the pocket.
Obviously when you can’t trust your tackles and the 2nd-string D tackles are getting a push on your line, you have no where to go. That being said, I hope he isn’t becoming gun shy and losing his confidence.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
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