Drafting Another First Round Quarterback Is A Ridiculous Idea
by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 2:10 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings 2011 Season
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Okay, the debate in the comments section of yesterday's game wrap-up has gotten to the point where I think I need to make a stronger case.
Yes, again.
This coming April, the Minnesota Vikings will have the highest draft choice that they have had in a quarter of a century. It is guaranteed to be a top-six choice in the draft, and the Vikings haven't drafted higher than seventh since taking Chris Doleman at #4 in 1985. Apparently the distraction of bright, shiny objects like Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, and Robert Griffin III have people under the impression that all the Minnesota Vikings have to do in order to be great again is to dump Christian Ponder and draft one of those three quarterbacks.
I don't understand it. And believe me, I've tried to understand it. . .I just don't.
Yes, Ponder looked bad against the Saints yesterday. The thing is, the Saints really didn't do anything special. They had two specific tenets to their game plan:
-Rush five guys on pretty much every play, because the Minnesota Vikings can't block it, and
-Take away Percy Harvin, because the Minnesota Vikings don't have one other receiver capable of beating an NFL-caliber cornerback one-on-one on even a semi-regular basis.
That's what New Orleans did. That's all New Orleans needed to do. That's all any team needs to do against this team right now.
Quarterback should be so ridiculously far down the list of priorities for this team right now that it shouldn't even be a consideration. After the jump, I'll break this down further.
Offensive Line
One of the things I heard Paul Allen and Pete Bercich say a lot during the broadcast yesterday is that Ponder appeared to have happy feet. Well, you know something? Of course he does. Behind this offensive line, wouldn't you? Christian Ponder dropped back to pass 35 times on Sunday (31 pass attempts and four sacks). Go back and re-watch the game. Count how many times Ponder had the opportunity to actually set his feet and survey the field. You won't need all of your fingers on one hand to accomplish it.
This offensive line is terrible, folks, and it's readily apparent to anybody that wants to pay attention. In today's National Football League, the left tackle position is every bit as important as the quarterback position. The Vikings' starting left tackle is Charlie Johnson.
Pop quiz. . .of the other 31 National Football League teams, please list one that Charlie Johnson would be the starting left tackle for. Not ten, not five, not even three. . .just one. Go ahead, I'll wait.
...
...
Okay, time's up, and the odds are pretty good that you have a blank piece of paper in front of you, because Charlie Johnson, quite simply, would not be the starting left tackle for any other team in the National Football League. Not a one. Any quarterback is going to get blasted behind this offensive line, and the offensive line most certainly needs to be addressed before wasting a second straight first-round pick on a quarterback.
Wide Receiver
Pop quiz question number two. . .outside of Percy Harvin (and maybe Michael Jenkins, who is currently on IR), name one receiver on the Minnesota Vikings' roster that would even see the field for any other team in the NFL. Not start. . .see the field. Again, I'll wait.
...
...
Again, your piece of paper should be blank, unless you're really of the impression that Devin Aromashodu, Greg Camarillo, and Emmanuel Arceneaux are these super duper mega talents that Christian Ponder simply isn't utilizing. Given these deficiencies, the fact that Christian Ponder's TD-to-INT ratio is at the break-even mark is freaking remarkable. But I haven't even gotten to the worst part of this team.
Secondary
Yesterday, Drew Brees completed 32-of-40 passes for 412 yards and five touchdowns. He became just the sixth player in NFL history to throw for four hundred yards and five touchdowns with no interceptions in a game.
And didn't play the last twelve minutes of the fourth quarter.
If Sean Payton had wanted Brees to throw for six hundred yards and seven touchdowns, he could have, and there wouldn't have been a damn thing that the Vikings could have done about it. Because this might be the worst secondary in Vikings' history. Worse than the Willie Teal years. . .worse than the Wasswa Serwanga/Robert Tate years. . .worse than any collection of secondary players in the 51 seasons that the Minnesota Vikings have been playing football.
Of all the current defensive backs on the Vikings roster, I can't think of a single one that should feel confident that they're even going to be on the team next season, let alone playing a significant role. That may sound like hyperbole, but I'm really not sure that it is. I mean, I don't count Antoine Winfield in that, because he's done for the year, but really. . .and nobody's a bigger Winfield fan than I am. . .the guy turns 36 before camp next season. How long can you rely on him?
Chris Cook? The odds are just as good that he'll be in prison in Week One of the 2012 NFL season than they are that he'll be in the NFL. Husain Abdullah? Possibly, but now he's fighting a concussion, and you can never really gauge how well a guy is going to come back from that. Outside of that, there is not one guy in this secondary that should be under the impression that their job is secure. Hell, right now our best defensive back. . .by a significant margin. . .is Benny Sapp, a guy that was watching games at home on his couch three weeks ago.
Not surprisingly, there is a great prospect at each of those positions in the 2012 NFL Draft. There's an amazing wide receiver talent in Oklahoma State's Justin Blackmon, an outstanding cornerback prospect in LSU's Morris Claiborne, and a great offensive line talent in USC's Matt Kalil. That's where Minnesota's attention should be focused.
Let me put it this way. . .if you looked at the 2012 Draft for the Minnesota Vikings like it was a car, Matt Kalil would be the seat belts. Morris Claiborne would be the brakes. Justin Blackmon would be the accelerator. You know. . .things that you need.
A quarterback would be the super-sweet subwoofer that goes in the trunk. Sure, it might be nice and impress all the folks at the mall and everything, but you sure as hell don't need it.
Quite frankly, at this point, I sincerely hope that Andrew Luck and Matt Barkley and Robert Griffin III all make the decision to go back to college. Why? So that the Minnesota Vikings don't waste a top-six (and, likely, top-three) overall selection on something that they simply don't need. There are too many other holes, too many other problems, and too many other issues to worry about to dump a rookie quarterback after he's made eight starts on a terrible team because you're under the impression that the new flavor of the week is the next big thing.
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Comments
I completely agree with you. Ponder should be going nowhere.
Our top needs are (in no particular order) WR, OT and CB.
To further prove your point, I went to www.drafthistory.com and looked up how many times a team has drafted a quarterback in the 1st round after taking one the year prior. The answer is zero. No team has ever, in the history of the ENTIRE NFL, drafted a quarterback in the first round after taking one the year prior. Christian Ponder isn’t going anywhere, folks. If the Vikings were to buck this trend, it would be incredibly unwise.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Not even if they could trade Ponder for a top 10 pick?
I’d have to think hard if the Vikings ended up with the chance to take the next Manning (Luck) and trade Ponder to say Washington, Miami, Cleveland for their first rounder and get Martin of Reiff. I would only do this if I could make a trade and get a pick that would be high enough to guarantee a LT. though.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't,
those teams would probably take Griffin or Barkley before Ponder IMO.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Or "Captain Hindsight" here
We could have traded back last year and tried to land 2 later 1st rounder or a very early second with a 1st round swap. Gotten Solder, Weisneski and then saw if Ponder or Dalton fit in there out of 3 picks. We still would have taken lumps but got some needed strength in a draft full of good O -linemen.
If we get Luck we start moving Webb to WR for the last part of this season and quit pussy footing with his talent. The kid can play and know he can catch and run.
It baffles me that they let him play a couple downs but don’t see how he would handle a full game.
If we get luck we need to dangle Ponder or save him and have the 2 fight it out. A waste of last years 1st rounder -yes. I think the possibility of getting something late or early 2nd for Ponder is good. But if the guy had some O-line help and someWR’s with spped he might just pan out.
Bottom line is that the Vikings didn’t see this coming. Is it too late for Poder. I can’t say for sure. I just don’t see the zip on the ball. Maybe it is cause theline is being pushed in his face and he has no visual. It is a poor dilema to be in.
Seriously, at this point how could you pass on Luck. Suppose both could be trade bait and see who brings the most.
Just seemlike a no win situation. Unless we aquire a crapload of picks witha couple later 1st rounders and a 2nd with a 3rd for the following year.
AKA : Revenge4Webb
by CitrusFLViking on Dec 19, 2011 10:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Plus we have more pressing needs,
and it isn’t likely to happen I don’t think at all. While Andrew Luck would be hard to pass up, I think it’d be wiser to keep Ponder unless we have a pre-set deal in place that’ll net us a Top 5-10 pick for CP7 so we can snag another need up.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
i hope luck is a bust
Just so all the people that say OMGZ next manning look like dumbasses
by Lunchpail on Dec 19, 2011 2:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
ok maybe not a bust
But its just odd that people think that he’s goin to be a sure thing… I mean look at the people that thought newton was going to suck… Just to anoint him the next thing since sliced bread before he plays in the NFL is ridiculous, could he be? Absolutely, but we have ponder, we need a line to protect him
by Lunchpail on Dec 19, 2011 4:26 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Or those who thought Gabbert was a
’can’t-miss Franchise QB.’ Thank you Jags for having the ammo to move up and snag him.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Really? People said Gabbert was a "can't miss franchise QB."
Wow. Didn’t know that. You’d figure he’d go first if that was the case.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
The ESPN guys were saying he should, but really, no one else was.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
Gabbert had the most red flags of the top qb prospects.
But he also has one of the best arms of them.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
Sounds like a perfect pick for the Raiders.
:-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Yeah, you go back and look at the mock drafts.
Before everyone was gushing about Newton, they were gushing about Gabbert. Mayock had him ranked as his #1 QB prospect.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
I remember him going high and being thought to be a prototypical QB for the NFL
…but I don’t ever recall hearing “can’t miss franchise QB.” That would have caught my attention, because he struck me as a guy who would do anything to avoid getting hit.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Kinda reminded me of Jeff George in that regard.
by Caretaker QB on Dec 19, 2011 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe my recollection is hazy, then
but I seem to recall several draft analysts sharing a consensus that Gabbert was an automatic franchise QB, with all the measurables needed to succeed.
That’s why everyone was hoping we’d trade up to grab him at 10. Thankfully it didn’t happen. I guess that’s one positive of the Moss trade.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
There was debate on whom the #1 QB taken would be
Many mocks had Gabbert going before Newton and other mocks had Newton falling to the Vikings at 12
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Gabbert might be good someday
When I saw his lousy footwork, I figured he’d be a long-term project. For some reason some of the local sports people were enamored. Problem now is, they threw Gabbert into action before he was trained and ready, so he got beaten down and beat up. Now, it’s possible that his confidence is blown. Too bad. He was a prospect.
He very well could pull a Alex Smith next year
That’s the beauty of it!! Because he’s learning in an NFL system, against NFL defenses, he will likely play better next season (whether he will be amazing or mediocre is to be seen). Ponder has that same experience and has played better, something Luck cannot say.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, it will take at least a couple years
Gabbert’s footwork is so sloppy, I’d put him through tons of training to make it better. I’d have him taking tap dancing classes, ballet classes, fencing, boxing, trick jump rope drills, gymnastic tumbling… His feet would have a PhD in moving quickly and gracefully. No more giant steps, only little, smooth steps, perfectly on balance. That would make him a top-notch NFL quarterback.
Unfortunately, this kind of training takes at least a couple years to get solid results. He’s already a good athlete – strong, fast, coordinated – but now he needs to learn to be a magician with his feet. That skill takes time to develop, but once it’s there, Gabbert will have a chance to be really good.
I hope so. He has a great nfl arm. It would be nice to see him develop.
I recall the scouting reports on him said that he worked from a spread offense and didn’t take the ball from center. And that he wasn’t that adept at reading defenses and going through his progressions. But that he had all the raw tools to be a prototypical nfl qb. His numbers were about the same as Ponder’s coming out of college
Andrew Luck, on the other hand, has been playing in a pro style offense for four years, and has been a fulltime starter for 3 years. He is touted for his ability to actually read defenses, not just go through progressions. And he is praised for his ability to actually look off defenders with his eyes. His stas are astronomical, even by college standards. And those numbers dwarf any of the qbs that came out last year. He also did this under multiple coaches and supporting casts.
No doubt the decision would be tough to pass up on a guy with that kind of talent.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
by krinkle on Dec 19, 2011 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Luck isn't the next Manning.
I’m not buying the fan hype. And honestly, I haven’t heard many sane experts put him in that class.
Against good teams, he’s been quite average, IMHO. And I’d say his arm and accuracy are average.
Will he be a good starting QB in the NFL. Probably. But an ‘elite’ QB? pfft.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 20, 2011 6:04 PM CST up reply actions
Yea, Manning doesn't have any mobility.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
See, this is the thing I don't get
If Christian Ponder is allegedly so terrible, why on earth would anybody give us anything for him, let alone a top ten pick?
They have scouting departments and stuff, too.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
Right
And if you think that Ponder is good enough to merit someone trading a top ten pick for him, why the heck wouldn’t you keep him?
Exactly
It’s the same crap I heard about Culpepper all those years ago.
“Well, you know, Culpepper sucks and is only good because of Moss and he’s a terrible quarterback otherwise. . .but I bet if we tried to trade him we could get a couple of first-round picks for him!”
The mind, it boggles.
SBNation Minnesota - For the greatest sports fans in the world.
The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts." - Henry Rollins
Follow @DailyNorsemanSB
Follow @SBNMinnesota
by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
Well, it's not like there aren't owners/GMs out there who will overpay for someone everyone else thinks is not worth it
See for example: Dan Snyder, and whoever it was in the Raiders organization who pulled the trigger on that god-awful Carson Palmer trade.
Angelo: Right….so anyways Jay, I’m sure you understand that we needed to make this move and I wanna wish you the best of luck.
Cutler: (Swoops bangs out of eyes by throwing his head back) Whatever, I don’t need this team or you.
/Leaves in a huff
//Writes bad poetry on his blog
Grossman: What the fuck is Wilford Brimley’s problem?
Also,
The Kevin Kolb debacle.
But I’m not an advocate of that way of thinking. Haha Just so everyone knows. I agree with Christopher Gates on that, but I wanted to add Kevin Kolb in there. Because that was absolutely terrible.
It's called the "Bigger fool theory"
gee look at that stock price go up and up, it is already twice it’s historical max price, I better buy it now, then in a few weeks, months I can sell it to some one else for twice what I paid! Sweet, I gotta go do that right now!
this kind of thinking has lost a lot of people a lot of money. every one likes to think that we are not the bigger fool, but that is rarely the truth.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
I didn't say Ponder was terrible
Actually all I’ve said are positive things about Ponder. I think he’s well on his way to become a franchise QB which is why I think a top 10 pick is obtainable. The question was if Luck was available would you take him and given the fact I think Ponder could garner that top 10 pick in which I would use to get a solid LT , then yes I would take Luck and trade Ponder and get Martin or Reiff with the pick obtain for Ponder.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 4:52 PM CST up reply actions
"Ponder well on his way to becoming a franchise QB"? uhhhhh, I don't know.
I think it is too early to tell on that one.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
It is, but
WTF DUDE!!
I think he’s well on his way to become a franchise QB which is why I think a top 10 pick is obtainable.
THEN WHY WOULD WE TRADE HIM!!!
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
yea, right.
I think that if Ponder played more like he did against Denver the last 2 games, then that would be diff. but he has very little tape and even less highlights to be used to sucker an other team with. having said that, I am a fan of ponder and think he will be a fantastic QB for us. I want Kalil so Ponder wont get hit right as he gets teh snap every time he tries to drop back.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
hell no
I keep ponder who is already in the NFL and draft kalil with my pick, what’s the point in getting a qb that doesn’t know the system when you have one that does when you need quality linemen before you need a qb? luck is just the next shiny new toy IMHO
by Lunchpail on Dec 21, 2011 2:04 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
about the Webb
have you been up getting beer and pooping during his passing downs
by Lunchpail on Dec 21, 2011 2:20 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
It would be so insanely dumb, so incredibly edibly dumb!
IF YOU THINK REEM SHOULD BE RATED ANY HIGHER THAN AROUND THE #5 HEAVYWEIGHT (AND THAT IS STRETCHING IT) THEN YOU ARE A FLIPPIN MORON, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
by Edgecrusher71 on Dec 19, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
Carolina Panthers
wait, didn’t Carolina pick a QB (Clausen) in the first round of the 2010 draft, then got Cam Newtown at #1 in 2011?
…unless Clausen was a 2nd rounder. Can’t remember.
Pretty damn sure the Panthers got a rookie QB with their first pick two years in a row.
…I take that back. I just saw that Clausen didn’t go in the first round. :/
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Dec 19, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, he was a second round pick, but Carolina's first pick that year
Angelo: Right….so anyways Jay, I’m sure you understand that we needed to make this move and I wanna wish you the best of luck.
Cutler: (Swoops bangs out of eyes by throwing his head back) Whatever, I don’t need this team or you.
/Leaves in a huff
//Writes bad poetry on his blog
Grossman: What the fuck is Wilford Brimley’s problem?
Clausen was also like.. 10x worse than Ponder's been, even at his best.
It was sort of necessary for them to grab Newton. There was no way Clausen was going to be ‘the guy.’
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah,
Clausen: 52.5% comp. percentage, 1,558 yards, 3 TD, 9 Ints in 11 games played.
Ponder: 54.5% comp. percentage, 1,757 yards, 13 TD, 12 Ints in 9 games played.
I’ll take Ponder any day over Clausen.
Those stats are much closer than he has characterized.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Yep, but yards, comp%, playing time are pretty close. Not "10x worse"
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Dilfer?
Is that you?
Hot damn, I knew the big-timers at ESPN read this site.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Eye test, man.
Other than the Saints and Lions game where Ponder looked shell shocked from always being hit, he has looked much, much better than Clausen ever did. He couldn’t move that offense at all. I think that’s where the 10x comes in.
Lol
ZZZZZZZZZZ
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Except for the TDs and INTs, the stats seem pretty similiar to me...
…and I bet Clausen didn’t have Peterson, Harvin and Gerhart taking screens and dump offs for 20 – 50 yard TDs. Ponder must have a half dozen of those by now. Almost forgot the 10 yard shuffle “pass” TD to Gerhart.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I guess YAC only counts for Ponder now.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Those are stats where not accumulated in the same way
Clausen’s where racked up in 13 games with 10 starts, Ponders in 9 games, 8 starts. and no way was Carolina’s Oline as bad as ours is. When you look at their stats in rate (apples to apples) they are not even close.
Ponder is 2.1 more yards/Completion, yards per attempt (y/a), 6.6 vs 5.2, Ponder’s QB rating is 12 points higher then Clausen’s was.
Then lets compare them to their peers. Ponder’s Y/A is only 10% below league avg, his QB rating is only 15% below league avg, while his TD% is 6% above league avg, all while standing behind the leagues worst Oline, and throwing to a receiving core that outside of Percy is not at all good. Clausen by comparison was, 33% below league avg in Y/A, 37% below league avg in TD%, and 29% below league avg in QB rating. Those numbers are not even remotely similar.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Are u sure??
Jimmy clausen nd Cam newton right a bell?
by AP's Future Replacement on Dec 19, 2011 11:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Clausen was the first pick of their draft,
however he was not a first round selection. That’s a good point, though.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
I don't think the Panthers have any regret about drafting Cam Newton now.
He’s going to be rookie of the year, and Luck is way better than him.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
Ugh
I don’t know if I buy that. Newton has come in and been a man among boys in his rookie season. It’ll be hard for Luck to top that.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
Cam is a dual threat, but I think Luck is a better true passing qb coming out.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
True passing, probably
but Newton’s mobility does make up for that, quite a bit, and he has a damn good arm himself. That man is an absolute playmaker. Once they get him some extra weapons in the passing game, that will be a fun offense to watch.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
Also
Newton has the most passing yards by a rookie. (broke Manning’s record )
Yeah
I doubt Andrew Luck will come in and throw 400 yards his first game.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 21, 2011 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe we should take Matt Barkley instead.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 7:54 PM CST up reply actions
... No.
Just no. I could entertain the Luck discussions. But that is ridiculous.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
Agree to an extent
I’m really hoping we give Ponder a full offseason and give him some kind of actual help. And there’s no way we should be drafting Barkley or Griffin regardless of where we end up.
However, I will unabashedly say that I’m rooting for a 2-14 finish and the #1 overall selection. That may be taboo as a die hard Vikings fan – but it’s precisely BECAUSE I’m a diehard Vikings fan that I say this. Having this #1 pick when the best QB prospect since Peyton Manning is coming out gives us the ability to ask for a king’s ransom for someone to move up and claim him. Not to mention the current CBA means he won’t be crippling the salary cap and makes the pick even more valuable.
By the time April rolls around no one will give a damn if we were 2-14, 3-13, or 4-12. We have the opportunity to either draft an almost sure-fire elite QB for the next 15 years, or trade out of that pick to give Ponder and our punchless defense a plethora of picks to rebuild with. Either way we go we’re in a hugely advantageous position.
Ryan Leaf?
Recall that the “pundits” had Manning and Leaf as toss-ups. It could be the same with Luck; who knows until he begins his NFL career. I have seen enough good things from Christian Ponder to give him the chance you mentioned along with some strong draft choices and hopefully some free agents.
Leaf was a tool in college I used to head over to WSU and party with friends over there.
The guy was a douche and we used to laugh about him getting drafted high then going home and crying when people actually told him he had to work.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Lol
I think this whole discussion is moot anyway, no way in HELL do we leap frog St. Louis and especially not Indy for the #1 pick!
There are still 2 games left, and we could still end up with the top pick.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
We'll know by Thursday
if the Colts don’t beat the Texans (who won’t have Andre Johnson) then we have #2.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Indy would be a great trade partner
in that situation. They want Luck, we want Kalil, we trade them the the #1 for the #2 and their second round pick in this years draft and the 1st and 2nd round pick next year. maybe a 3rd rounder this year too?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Awesome scenario for us, but Indy wouldn't do it
even if Manning were to retire tomorrow. This season exposed the huge holes in their roster. No rookie QB can overcome that – and trading that many picks would so severely deplete the team that it would send Luck backwards.
We’d have better luck (no pun intended) trading to a team that has a talented team and coaching staff to support a rookie QB. Not sure who that is … but there’s got to be someone better than Indy.
Pats?
Have him in line to succeed Brady perhaps. Unless they believe Mallet is that guy. Plus, Belichick is not really the type to pay a “King’s Ransom” for anything, but I’m not sure who else would qualify off the top of my head.
Christian Ponder: Super Bowl 50 MVP for the Minnesota Vikings
For Basketball Reasons
If you believe the word on the street about Luck's potential...
…you can’t not take him if the opportunity presents itself. If you don’t believe the hype, well then it’s just a decision based on what you think of Ponder and what you think of the team’s other needs. To me the crux of the issue is do you believe that what is said about Luck’s future is real or just this year’s “flavor of the week.”
The way I see it, if we have a shot at Luck we take him. I believe the expert opinion for no other reason than I tend to trust that sort of chorus of voices. I also don’t see Ponder as having shown enough at this stage to turn my back on the “best QB prospect in 20 years.”
Other than Luck however, I say go fill other needs at other positions.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Dec 19, 2011 2:27 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I think you're right
Even if there is some amazing gift basket or cornucopia of draft picks, veterans, Twizzlers and powdered hot cocoa offered for trade to get that #1 pick, I think you have to take him. Luckily we won’t be in the position to have to make that choice :)
by cyberuck on Dec 19, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Some horse trading perhaps?
Okay. Would you accept Jolly Ranchers instead of Twizzlers? I kind of suspect that Twizzlers are some sort of petroleum byproduct – a digestible plastic of sorts.
And while the hot cocoa sounds very tempting, I think picking Luck is about delayed gratification. It’s picking a QB that is likely to be your guy for the next decade or more. That’s an eternity in football time. I’m not worried that we need other positions badly at the moment, and that we’ll be resigned to sucking again next year because of an absence of a potential franchise quality LT or other line and secondary needs.
So even with the Jolly Ranchers and hot cocoa, I’m still with you. Take Luck if he’s there, which he won’t be, so blah!
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Dec 19, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know
I really don’t think it matters whether he’s really as good as advertised. We’re still better off trading down and addition more pieces that fill our actual needs.
Luck is probably going to be the first player selected, because he is that good.
If we somehow get a shot at the number one pick, we would be stupid not to seriously consider taking him. And at least we should be looking at any and all offers for the pick to see what we can turn that pick into. I think he is in another league than Ponder or the other 3 qbs taken in front of Ponder last year. He would have been the number one pick this year had he come out. If we are this bad right now, we might as well get the best thing going at qb, and that is not Ponder. He is looking pretty good, but by no means has he shown that he will be a star in the league at this point. We need a star qb. Tough decision, no doubt.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
You think he's better than Newton?
I dunno about that one.
And we don’t need a star QB. We have a solid running game that has shown time and again it can carry this team. We can get by with a solid QB. But we need to improve the rest of the team as well. Even a star QB wouldn’t be able to help this team out as its currently built.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
Favre
We have a solid running game that has shown time and again it can carry this team.
It took bringing in a Hall of Fame QB gunslinger in 2009 to get this team over the hump. When he fell apart, so did the rest of our team. The running game is good to have. It’s not enough to carry this team.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Dec 19, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
What do you mean by 'over the hump?'
Into the post-season? We went the year before that too, with Gus Frerotte as our QB.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
Losing NFC championship game in OT>>>>>>>>>> losing in the first round at home. You have to be able to pass. Look at Green Bay, New Orleans and New England, the three best teams in the nfl, and they also happen to have the three best active quarterbacks in football, and they all lack a great running game. AP is a great piece to have, but the days are over in the NFL where a great back can carry a team. I’m sorry to burst your purple tinted bubble.
First Vikings memory: age 5, crying in front of the tv with my dad after the '98 NFC championship game.
by Sburrillbowen14 on Dec 19, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I don't know if it's better.
Same result, really. You can just be a little more proud that you made it farther? But you’re still watching some other team play in the title game.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
all those teams have solid offensive lines and receiving cores.
Even though NE doesn’t have the receivers, they have two phenomenal TE’s. Those three teams also have a great coach.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
The Packers O-Line is physically out of tackles who can walk.
But for the most part
i agree with the sentiment.
The time for reckoning has come, and we already have the answer
Problem is.
O Line. Look at the NFC championship game. A great quarterback fell apart after getting demolished play after play. The hits taken, the sacks, the constant pressure all add up to a ridiculous toll and it changes the way they throw.
Ponder is at worst serviceable. He can have enough of a passing threat to challenge the opposing coverages and let AP win the game.
At this point I think Joe Webb is better suited for THIS offensive line but is not the best qb for the future. They are running from pressure. He could actually make something out of the pressure.
by dr cagelove on Dec 19, 2011 7:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No, getting to the playoffs is nice...
…but 2009 was our best shot in a decade. I’d like to think we are aiming for bigger and better things. Deep playoff runs and shots at the title. It would seem that running games just can’t do that.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I wouldn't consider anything less
than a SB victory as ‘getting over the hump.’ Losing in the wildcard, divisional, conferance championship, or SB all end up the same way. No Lombardi.
I agree that ‘09 was our best shot, for sure. But it also helped that we didn’t turn the ball over much. Ball control is pretty damn important to deep runs as well. That’s why we failed in ‘09. Too many turnovers that game, one too many. That’s also why we failed in ‘08. That pick 6 killed us, and we didn’t even look to the run game in the 2nd half.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
That's also why the Packers did so well last year
They created turnovers and scored off them. That sure helped them in the Philly game. And Bears’. And the Steelers’.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
it certainly not worth 100 million... :p
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
They could be doing a lot of different things to spice up the run
they rarely use power running formations which could counter the extra safety in the box
If I was the OC I would get a small set of running plays and practice them all the time, that way you have a set core of offense that you can build more complex plays on. This team lacks identity on offense, a group of running plays that can always be counted on would go a long way in helping Ponder improve.
We should really be focusing on the run as our focal point, it will help our QB out and I think he really needs all the help he can get right now
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
by Grape Drank on Dec 20, 2011 12:23 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think we have the sort of center, or line in general...
…that can play power run football. Our 4th and 1 run plays have been a mess for a long time. Come to think of it, I think our weak blocking from Rudolph (TE) on those plays also contributed to problems. Sullivan is not strong enough to play power run football. We get stuff in the middle pretty consistently.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I am speaking for next year
there is no way our line is going to power anyone this year, but I don’t think we need to go to a pass first offense as has been suggested is needed to win a championship
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
by Grape Drank on Dec 20, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Okay. Fair point.
I do still think a power run team needs a center that can move his guy off the line some of the time. That’s not what we’ve got at the moment.
Having said that, I wonder if we’ll see a Berger-cat or Fusco-cat package for 4th and 1 and goal line plays. :-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Yes, I think Luck is better than Newton, by far. So do all the pundits.
And yes, we do need a star qb unless you want to be middle of the road. I want the super bowl.
that being said, I think Newton can win the super bowl. And Aside from Dilfer and Brad Johnson, there is a bit of a pattern going historically. So, I would seriously consider taking Luck.
2011 Rodgers
2010 Brees
2009 Roethlisberger
2008 Eli
2007 Peyton
2006 Roethlisberger
2005 Brady
2004 Brady
2003 Johnson*
2002 Brady
2001 Dilfer*
2000 Warner
1999 Elway
1998 Elway
1997 Favre
1996 Aikman
1995 Young
1994 Aikman
1993 Aikman
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Point taken
but do any of these guys win it all with our current offensive line? Unlikely I’m thinking.
Probably right.
But you’d have time to build the pieces around him. It doesn’t all have to get taken care of next year (or the year after that).
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
We are a sucky team, and a looooong way off from any super bowl.
But I don’t think Ponder really fits on that list of qbs. I could be wrong, but he has a lot of improving to do and needs to gain better passing skills.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
As did everyone on that list
When they were a rookie.
I agree he has a long ways to go to be considered a Superbowl quality QB
But remember he is a rookie and has shown the potential to be good. How many of those QB’s won the Superbowl their rookie year?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Just Roethlisberger
and as documented, he really didn’t do dick to help them win that game.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
He won the SB in his second year.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
ha I had to look it up
His rookie year he led the Steelers to the AFC championship game after going 13-0.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
The refs won that SB for the Steelers.
It’s been awhile so my memory is kinda fuzzy, but I remember the refs blowing a few calls in favor of the Steelers.
lol Man, that list is so misleading.
I will start with 2002. Brady wasn’t a superstar QB at that time. He was more of a game-manager, just-win QB.
In 2006, the Steelers won the SB on the strength of their running game. Roethlisberger had an absolutely shitty day throwing the ball. And, arguably, the refs gave the Steelers some huge calls.
2008, Eli Manning. The Miracle Catch. Tom Brady, who was a superstar QB at that point, didn’t will his team to the victory. The Giants’ D-line absolutely murdered him all game long. Eli Manning was good enough to not fuck it up.
2009/2010, both games featured a huge defensive TD that directly led to the point differential between winning and losing.
2011 was about Rodgers, yes, but that Packer’s defense helped get them to the SB by scoring a defensive TD in every single playoff game.
So, yeah, the current trend is ‘Superstar QBs win your SBs!’ A couple years ago, it was ‘Defensive pressure wins you SBs!’ wait until the next team not QB’d by a ‘big-name’ wins somehow, and there will be some new cliche about what it takes to win. ‘Strong running games are needed in the post season to help you win the SB!’ That’s my guess for what’s next.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
In 2006, the Steelers won the SB on the strength of their running game. Roethlisberger had an absolutely shitty day throwing the ball.
That is why he was so intent on getting back to the SB in order to do better and show he was a good QB. The team won despite his performance that day.
Exactly.
I’m fairly sure R4W’s point in listing the QBs of the superbowl teams was to show that you ‘need’ a superstar QB to win the big game.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
No, wrong about 2010.
The Saints TD ruined the chance for a comeback by Manning though.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
How about dialing back to...
…being a good enough QB to get your team to the Superbowl.
No position does as much to win games… or lose games.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
our head coach
along with the coordinators does more to lose a game than win one.trickeration plays for almost 10% of your plays isnt trickeration its normal and defendable since there is digital footage on hand to plan for it . lets get people who know how to win to run the team first .
That reminds me of the phrase...
“Two wrongs don’t make a right.”
I agree that the trickery stuff (mostly Webbcat) bothers me. However, I have noticed that the Harvin end around was a 1st down play every time through the first half of the season. And some of the fake out stuff has worked (e.g. the Gerhart shuffle pass for a TD last week).
Here’s my theory for all the trick stuff: Ponder really struggles with intermediate to long throws from inside of the pocket. He’s not a deep threat guy. The near TD pass to Jenkins in the first game and deep TD pass to Harvin were passes to player who were largely uncovered through the entirety of their route. Without the threat of making a defense pay for being overly aggressive, I think defenses would be even more aggressive in going after Ponder. I would if all the tricky stuff (Webbcat aside) is intended to keep defenses guessing and more restrained in attacking Ponder. It’s just a theory of course.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I don't like the Blazercat stuff either. I wish they would stop wasting plays.
I agree about Ponder’s throwing. He seems really good with the short passing game. He is quick and accurate when there are no progressions or when he rolls out and looks for someone in front of him. But the long stuff is a bit shaky. The long td pass to Harvin was underthrown and off target (as Ponder pointed out), and harvin was able to make a great adjustment to the ball. I liked the fact that they attacked the seam, though, seems like a good playcall at the time.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Could the problem with his deep throws
be that there isn’t enough time for the play to develop? If you watch other teams, the receivers have time to run deep routes and break them off into hitches, drags, etc. For the Vikings, they have time to take a two-step drop and loft the ball up on a go route. There is no threat to break the route off because the line won’t hold that long. Obviously Ponder’s strength isn’t his arm strength but on most plays there isn’t time find a receiver on a seam route, let alone let the play develop.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
No, Ponder throws a shit deep ball
Sometimes he hits the mark (see Percy Harvin TD vs Atlanta/72 yard strike to Jenkins vs GB), but most often it doesn’t hit the reciever in stride. Or he throws some strange looking ‘pop-up’ thing. But he’s cut down on that from what I’ve seen.
No, his strengths definitely lie in the short-to-intermediate game.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 21, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
And this
Is good or bad depending what kind of offense we are running.
He would do pretty well in a Bill Walsh West Coast offense but hard to say in a Tom Brady downfield passing offense.
Right now the Vikings are running a West Coast offense, which requires precise passing to precise route runners. We don’t have any precise route runners, not a one, so I’m clueless as to why we are running a West Coast offense.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 21, 2011 6:36 PM CST up reply actions
You don't know what you are talking about.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 7:56 PM CST up reply actions
three rights do make a left though...
so maybe three wrongs make a pizza?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Which pattern do you see?
Rodgers – late first round pick
Brees – second round pick
Brady – sixth round pick
Johnson – ninth round pick
Warner – undrafted
Favre – second round pick
That’s 8 of 18 Super Bowls won by guys who weren’t “the next Elway” and weren’t drafted at the top of the draft. That’s one short of half won by guys who were not recognized as great when drafted, all of whom were picked below where Ponder went.
The pattern would be Big time star qb.
Ponder hasn’t shown that yet. I’m not saying he couldn’t improve. Brees is the closest comparison to hope for. Luck seems to be of that caliber. Who knows, but the list shows that a top qb is usually winning the super bowl.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
Or that you get to be considered a top QB by winning one
Unless your name is Johnson or Dilfer.
But I don’t disagree with your premise that you need a top QB to win the SB. I disagree that “top qb” means “guy with the most hype out of college” or even that there is much of a correlation between hype and top qb performance.
by amiller92 on Dec 19, 2011 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Luck's college stats completely dwarf Ponder's. They are in another galaxy.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure they'll serve him well in the NFL
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
The guy is a stud passer. There can't be much argument about that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
He wouldn't be the first stud passer
To flame out in the NFL.
I’m not saying that’s going to happen, just that the transition isn’t a sure thing.
He's so good thatt Elway won't comment on him.
( Elway is afraid that Luck is better than he was ).
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure he's terrified
Dude, I’m pretty sure Elway is quite comfortable with his place in NFL hsitory.
"We owe him a lot more than he owes us at this point. He's been stellar all year. He still gave us a chance to win this one, and we've got to find a way."
—C Josh Bailey, on G Al Montoya after a 5-3 loss Tuesday in Montreal.
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Dec 19, 2011 7:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm refering to their college stats (both from Stanford).
Luck has broken most of Elway’s passing records in 3 years.
But, Elway all set those records in 4 seasons (and it’s a joke).
http://www.totalfootballstats.com/PlayerQB.asp?id=1176
http://www.totalfootballstats.com/PlayerQB.asp?id=1205749
Plus, there was a news article I was refering to:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d822f8aad/article/broncos-elway-takes-a-closer-look-at-stanford-qb-luck
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
Lay off the pipe
I have no idea about stats, but don’t you think football was a little different 30 years ago?
Like i said, I’m pretty sure elway is comfortable with his place in football history.
"We owe him a lot more than he owes us at this point. He's been stellar all year. He still gave us a chance to win this one, and we've got to find a way."
—C Josh Bailey, on G Al Montoya after a 5-3 loss Tuesday in Montreal.
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Dec 20, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
It's a joke, einstein. read the article.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, i could sense your sarcasm
If it’s a joke act like it’s a joke. i didn’t even read those links. what did you say to make anybody think that was a joke?
"We owe him a lot more than he owes us at this point. He's been stellar all year. He still gave us a chance to win this one, and we've got to find a way."
—C Josh Bailey, on G Al Montoya after a 5-3 loss Tuesday in Montreal.
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Dec 20, 2011 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
if you could sense the sarcasm,
then the joke obviously worked.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
^^This^^
is laughable.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
Nope, none
Worth ignoring the huge holes in the roster? That I don’t know.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
If we're going by stats in another galaxy to discussed QBs
How ’bout that Case Keenum? His stats dwarf Lucks. He must be the best QB prospect this century, right?
I'll say this I wouldn't mind picking him up in the third.
and putting Webb out in WR where he belongs…
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
But I'm not a good receiver.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
Of course you're not now go to the CFL
or play the game the way your team wants you to.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
The team wants me at qb. And my coordinator is a moron.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 7:57 PM CST up reply actions
Dilfer sure thinks he
was an all workd QB though.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
But
Rodgers: rd 1, pick 24
Brees: rd 2, pick 32
Roethlisberger: rd 1, pick 10
Eli Manning: rd 1, pick 1
Peyton Manning: rd 1, pick 1
Brady: rd 6, pick 199
Johnson: rd 9, pick 227
Dilfer: rd 1, pick 6
Warner: rd 1, pick 3
Elway: rd 1, pick 1
Favre: rd 2, pick 33
Aikman: rd 1, pick 1
Young: undrafted by NFL (due to going to USFL)
Only 4 number one picks out of 13 SB quarterbacks…
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 4:55 PM CST up reply actions
But they are almost all star qbs who can sling it.
p.s. I think warner was undrafted.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:23 PM CST up reply actions
He can bag your groceries, and bless them too.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:35 PM CST up reply actions
Yep, Warner undrafted.
Got him mixed up with Curt Warner the running back.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Of course
you take Luck, Ponder is an ok QB, and yes we look weak around him. But Luck is as good a pick as there has been. If not we could be remembered like the Portland TrailBlazers, at least Sam Bowie looked to be a better pick than Jordan.
Luck is can't miss
I like Christian Ponder. He’s going to be an excellent NFL quarterback. There are several such in the NFL right now.
Andrew Luck is going to be better than all of them. Top five first year, then the best in the league for the next ten to twelve years. Better than Rogers, Peyton or Brady.
This probably doesn’t matter, because we’ve all seen the schedules. The Colts probably won’t win another game, and neither will the Rams. Neither will the Vikings, but that won’t matter if the other two don’t win. Most likely the Vikings will have the third pick, which means they won’t even get Kalil. At that point it would be smartest to trade down and get the next best lineman in the middle, then another lineman as a high second.
That said, if you wind up with the Luck pick, you pick Luck. Any other decision makes you dumber than Mike Lynn on the heels of the Hershel Walker trade. Sure, drafting Luck means it will be harder to re-build a crappy offensive line, tougher to re-stock the wideouts, etc. But you do it anyway, because he’s that good.
In fact, you draft Luck and keep Ponder as your second stringer for at least a year. Then you convert Joe Webb to a WR, build your O-Line, put Manny Arceneaux on the other side, and you’ve got a serviceable receiver corps. Andrew Luck makes mediocre receivers look like stars, because his uncanny accuracy puts the ball right in their hands, right in stride, about 80 percent of the time. Ponder is accurate, but not that consistently. Luck also has the brains and savvy to call his own changes at the line of scrimmage. Ponder is smart too, but not that smart.
by jimbo55403 on Dec 19, 2011 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
.. Luck is in the top 5 QB's in the league if we draft him, huh?
Color me skeptical on that.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
Wow someone has been drinkin the Luck kool-aide
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I don't drink with my eyeballs
I watched a bunch of youtube videos of Andrew Luck picking apart college defenses. I watched his feet; best footwork I’ve ever seen, on ANY quarterback. He moves in the pocket not just to dodge rushers, but also to create throwing lanes. He throws receivers open, putting the ball exactly where he wants it almost every time. This is the only guy I’ve seen whose passing accuracy will be better than Drew Brees, better than Kurt Warner. And he’s built like Ben Roethlisberger, but with his zipper closed.
I formed my opinion of Andrew Luck by watching him play. I also watched Newton play, and Gabbert, and Locker, and Ponder, and a few others. Luck was better than all the others, by a mile. Newton was second, but Luck was a better passer. Locker was the one I wanted the Vikings to draft, but that didn’t happen.
By the way, Jake Locker is also going to be a big star. Another Roethlisberger. Bank.
by jimbo55403 on Dec 19, 2011 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He's going to rape chicks?
seriously though, being the best college QB in the last couple years does not equal top 5 QB in year one and future HOFer. I can find youtube videos that make JaWalrus Russel look good too.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Best what?
No, Andrew Luck is not the best college quarterback in the last couple years. I never said that. I’m telling you that Luck is the best college quarterback I’ve ever seen. Ever. He’s better than Elway, better than Marino, better than any of them were in college. Right now, Luck is a better quarterback than all but a handful of NFL pro quarterbacks. Better arm, better feet, better field vision, better feel for the game.
I still remember yelling “Stoooopid!” at the TV when the Vikings passed on Dan Marino in 1983. I knew (from watching just a couple eye-popping performances) that Marino was going to be an instant success in the NFL. They did get a great player in Joey Browner, but passing on Marino was stoooopid.
Well, passing on Andrew Luck would be even worse. Luck is going to win even more games than Marino. I can’t say that about Christian Ponder, who will be a good QB, but not at that level.
Of course, I could be wrong. But I don’t think so.
Well seeing as how you will be stuck on a terrible Indy team
that needs more pieces than we do. I would say it will take 3-4 years for them to be back at .500 so half of his QB career will be behind a horrible team.
You didn't watch him play
You watched youtube. How many of those were by Luck fanbois? Where they conveniently leave out his flaws, and only toss in his awesome footage. You know the kind.
And let’s lay off comparing him to Brees/Warner. Those guys are/were playing against the cream of the crop. Luck is still playing college ball. I get it, he’s a good prospect, but saying he’ll be better than some of the best QBs in the league before he’s even taken an NFL snap is utterly ridiculous. I guess the Saints better trade away Brees then to snag up the #1 spot!
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, come on.
You really thing I can’t tell the difference? Of course YouTube has those intolerable fanboy videos. I can’t stand that precious crap, mostly set to monotonous hip-hop junk. I watched the videos collected by that dude that started a site for the specific purpose of evaluating top college players. Haven’t been there lately, but the guy did collect excellent samples (good and bad) of various QB’s and other prospects.
From that I formed opinions on various QBs. I didn’t look simply at whether or not a play worked. I watched for footwork, vision, anticipation and coordination between the QB and his teammates. I could see that Cam Newton was a wildly good athlete, but his biggest strength was in sandlot style scrambling and running. I could see that Gabbert was getting by on a strong arm, agility and poor defense. I could see that Jake Locker will be the next Big Ben, after about three years learning the trade. I could see that Colin Kaepernick will be really good, after he learns to play quarterback. Christian Ponder didn’t impress me until the Senior Bowl, when I found out he’d been playing with a hurt shoulder all year.
The one guy that really stood out in those videos was Andrew Luck. He looked just like a seasoned, clever NFL quarterback, methodically picking apart every defense he faced. He did pump fakes, changed plays at the line, checked down to his fifth (!!!) receiver, and moved like friggin’ Fred Astaire in the pocket.
My only real criticism of Luck was that beard. God, it was ugly. Then he shaved it off. Okay, now I see why he had the beard. The man’s just not GQ material. QB, not GQ. Makes Peyton Manning look handsome. Aaron Rogers is a fashion model next to this guy. So, best thing is to put a big helmet on him, then make him throw footballs to millionaires.
by jimbo55403 on Dec 20, 2011 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Thank you Mr. Gates for being intelligent. There are a lot of Viking fans who think that getting the right QB will just solve all of the Vikings problems. The truth is, the QB position is the least of the Vikings problems right now.
by Timothy Bryce on Dec 19, 2011 2:32 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I take Luck if we get no. 1
but odds are we won’t, we have to jump over Indy and STL and STL has a tough last 2 games and there is no way Indy is blowing that no. 1 pick.
Look at the other teams in the running...
STL, doesnt need another WB either, us, depends who you talk to, but lets just go with we dont need to draft another QB either…..
Baring Miami finds their way back into the math….Indy is the ONLY one with a QB need right now….
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Your defense of Ponder features nothing about Ponder at all. Yes, I know this team is shit. I know the offensive line, receivers and secondary need to be completely rebuilt, and it will probably take two offseasons to do it. But that doesn’t mean that, ipso facto, Ponder is a franchise QB. Tarvaris Jackson played under some bad circumstances as well. Was Ryan Cook a good RT? Were Bobby Wade and Billy McMullen good targets to throw to? No, but that didn’t mean Jackson was automatically a good QB.
Any time a defense of a player is nothing but excuses…that worries me. Christian Ponder is regressing, and people should be questioning him. I’m not saying that this automatically means the Vikings should give up on him and draft another QB. But I am saying he should not be automatically handed the keys to the kingdom, either. He’s not a sure-thing by any stretch. If the Vikings, somehow, get the opportunity to draft Andrew Luck, that would be very tough to pass up. Barkley and Griffin could, and should, be passed on, but Luck is a top-notch prospect. Ponder, whether you want to hear it or not, isn’t.
by frank_grimes on Dec 19, 2011 2:34 PM CST reply actions 7 recs
Your Tavaris Jackson analogy falls flat
Jackson had the benefit of Birk for a good portion of his early games. He had Sidney Rice for a few games. He had a younger, spry Steve Hutchinson. A Mount McKinnie. He had so much more time in the pocket than what Ponder gets. He had a better defensive unit that could actually get off the field.
Ponder, in his 8 games, has already shown more accuracy than what Jackson has. He’s shown more poise in the pocket. He’s shown much better mechanics than what we saw from Jackson. About the only thing he hasn’t done is throw for 4 TDs in a game. But I’m pretty certain, in these 8 games, with a worse team, he’s thrown as many, if not more, TDs than Jackson ever did in a season.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
With the amazingly powerful weapons he has over on the Seahawks
Tarvaris Jackson has thrown 12 TDs, 12 INTs. 1 fewer TD than Ponder with the same amount of interceptions. You would be hard pressed trying to convince me he has more to work with than Ponder.
All due respect to Jackson
but he’s also been in the league an extra 4 years. And he’s played more games this season than Ponder. In the NFC West. Ponder would be rocking stats if he played the Cards twice and the Rams twice. Instead of the Lions, Chicago, and GB. All teams in the playoff hunt, mind you.
And I was talking with the Vikings, maybe I should have clarified that.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions
He also has four more starts than Ponder
He’s also been in the NFL since 2006.
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"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts." - Henry Rollins
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
The Seahawks offensive line is solid
They spent last year and this year picking up draft picks and free agents to set their line up, and it’s worked. The reason the Seahawks are doing so well with mediocre players in the talent positions is because of this period. You give TJ enough space back there and even his Bambi eyed idiocy will look good.
If you tried to tell me that TJ would do as well as Ponder behind this line I would laugh and laugh and laugh, then realize that I could never take anything you said seriously ever again.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Seattle's line hasn't done that well this year.
They are 27th in the running game and 23rd in the passing game. They are doing well holding together with a lot of injuries. But, at least they have some good players and should be in decent shape personnel wise if they get and stay healthy.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, Jackson has weapons over there
I don’t think he’s better off than Ponder, save for the O-line, but T-Jax is well set.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know about set. I think that seattle chose to rebuild the line first.
I get the sense that as soon as Carrol can snag a top tier qb, he will plug him into what looks to become a pretty decent team.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
I mean set with his offensive weapons.
He has his big target to catch anything in Sidney Rice, he has a lesser version in Mike Williams. Beast Mode is there to help take some heat off him. Zach Miller is as good a blocking TE as he is a recieving one. He has tools to succeed in that offense.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 7:22 PM CST up reply actions
Yea, I just think Jackson is just a temporary fill-in for Carrol at qb.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, no doubt about that
He’s definitely not their ‘franchise’ QB. That’s Charlie Whitehurst (lololol.)
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
How can you tell that he's regressing?
I hate to keep going back to Troy Aikman for these examples, but as a rookie, Aikman was awful because dude had NOTHING to work with. He went 0-11 as a starter. He threw twice as many interceptions as touchdowns. He only went 0-11 because he got hurt and missed the last five games because his offensive line was terrible.
Should the Cowboys have kicked him to the curb after one season, too?
Seriously, too many people are too married to the “quick fix” mentality and don’t get the fact that actually developing a quarterback takes time.
SBNation Minnesota - For the greatest sports fans in the world.
The Daily Norseman - The greatest Vikings' site on the Internet!
"Don't do anything by half. If you love someone, love them with all your soul. When you go to work, work your ass off. When you hate someone, hate them until it hurts." - Henry Rollins
Follow @DailyNorsemanSB
Follow @SBNMinnesota
by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
They are extrapolating from very limited data
And on short term trends. He was not good this week or against Detroit, therefore the (faulty) conclusion is that he’s regressing. That ignores the possibility that there are ups and downs in everyone game.
I don’t think you can conclude anything from week-to-week variation, and the kid needs a full off season before anyone can appropriately give up on him.
Wanting the quick fix
Wanting Aaron Rodgers
Wanting 400 yards games
Wanting 12-4 seasons
I love the Vikes and until the last several years, I’ve never been into reading or talking about them. It has been eye opening, to say the least. Some of the “fans” leave one speechless.
I don't think there is any quick fix for this 2-12 team.
But yes, I would love to have a real deal star qb who can throw 400 yard games and 12-4 seasons.
The team night find itself in the rare position to have the opportunity to grab the top rated qb coming out of college in quite a while. There is nothing wrong with that. We would be in the driver’s seat.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
Sure
A driver’s seat without a car maybe.
There is absolutely no point in taking Luck when we have no talent to put around him. He’s far more valuable to us as trade bait to get more draft picks.
by Amrius on Dec 19, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
A franchise QB sticks around for a decade or longer
And if the individual truly is a franchise quality QB, then waiting another year or two to put the pieces together is just fine. Besides, Luck only commands one pick. It’s not like putting that one pick somewhere else suddenly gives us a “car” with four wheels, etc.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Dec 19, 2011 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Using it on someone else
Gives us one wheel.
And trading it might get us all four.
by amiller92 on Dec 19, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I am still trying to figure out how
people are naive enough to believe that we actually could get the #1 pick. Even if Indy wins one more game we still have a stronger SOS than both Indy and St. Louis
It's like replacing a perfectly good tire.. with another.
While the other 3 are flat.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
I don't buy that Luck and Ponder are similiar enough to be interchangeable.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Lol
I don’t know if you meant that as a joke, but it was funny none the less in reference to the tire analogy.
They are not interchangeable, but you can still get to your destination with premium, high performance tires and run of the mill goodyear tires. :)
Skipping on Luck...
…means spinning the wheel and hoping for improvement from Ponder or finding more QB retreads.
:-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Dec 19, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Just having fun with the wheel theme
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Drafting Luck is like buying studded snow tires for winter.
Ponder can back him up like the mini spare you store little compartment in the trunk of the car.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
you too (see below)
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry man, I really don't know what you're getting at with that.
The snow tires comment was almost as weak as my attempted witty remark.
well, your weak attempt at a remark is still
not as limp as ( see below ). the bar is low folks.
you beat him, you concede to me, i win!
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
Ahhh.
I see what you’re getting at. You’re saying that what we have now works, but it could be so much better.
I disagree, for the record.
Still, studded snow tires are only okay to use for a few months out of the year. (nothing to do with football. Just a fact.)
Don't Tread On Me
har-de-har-har.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
Who needs snow tires
when you play in the Dome?
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 20, 2011 12:00 AM CST up reply actions
come on, you can do better than that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
Don't let people try to take the air out of your analogy
:-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Funny.
If we get Luck, “we’ll be wheelie, wheelie good”.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Anyone else wanna get offa this FLuckmobile thread, lol
It is getting tire-some ;)
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
Where's a snare drum and cymbal when you need one?
:-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Ah, here you go.
No play*on*words joke is complete without it.
http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Music/Sound%20Effect%20-%20Rimshot.wav
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
skipping on luck
Shows faith in ponder, which might be all he needs to gain some extra confidence
by Lunchpail on Dec 19, 2011 6:29 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
If only it were that easy.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Perfect!
I like this analogy! Okay, so maybe Luck would be a better tire, but exchanging a pretty good tire, with a tire we don’t even know is going to be a good tire, and leaving three flats would be a completely stupid move on the Vikings part.
We know what we have in Ponder. We have a QB, who given enough time to work, is an excellent QB. And Luck may be a better QB, but we don’t know that.
The Vikings need to look at OT, DB, WR, in that order in the first round.
I AM VIKING, HEAR ME ROAR!!!
Wasn't clear to me at first which QB was which in your first paragraph
We know what we have in Ponder
I don’t think Ponder has shown us that he will be an excellent QB. I think teams are figuring out his tendencies. He’s very mobile. His accuracy is very good on the move. He’s good on short routes like screen, dump offs and slant routes. He’s not good at medium to long range throws and doesn’t see the field well from inside the pocket. To think he’s already proven that with more time, he’ll be “excellent” strikes me as not being an entirely balanced view of what Ponder has “proven” when on the field.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Yeah, I guess that's what the scouts are saying.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Sometimes they over-estimate potential
Happens all the time, actually. If Scouts got everything right, every #1 overall pick would be a hall of famer.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
Consensus of the sort that Luck has achieved is hard to come by.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
LUCK, LUCKETY, LUCK, LUCK, LUCK. no brainer.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Tebow seemed to have the consensus that he couldn't be an NFL quarterback
That one seemed to backfire on those analysts’.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
NO!!
Stop this right meow please. This topic will spiral down the shitpipe extremely fast.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
...Stop this right meow?
I think I have a new favorite phrase for a little while.
Sorry,
blatant Super Troopers reference : )
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 20, 2011 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
and here i thought you were an anime fan.. :D
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Hell yeah
Family Guy and South Park are the shit
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 20, 2011 8:36 AM CST up reply actions
and yet neither are Anime
anime is Japanese animation, those shows, while really good, are cartoons.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
I was just going to ignore him
Figuring he’s trying to goad me into ranting about Bleach…
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
just pointing out that concensus does not equal correct.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
haha very true.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
>_> He.. well.. he isn't.
He’s a glorified RB.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
Luck is the best player in the NFL as of right now.
According to ESPN.
by SirGrizzly on Dec 19, 2011 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Lol, rec’d
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:53 PM CST up reply actions
2nd best, actually.
He’s the next Peyton Manning, not the actual Peyton Manning.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
Nut hairs...
With a Machete
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
whatever Rodgers is
followed by Tebow who is awesome for one thing only, ratings.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I don't know, man.
I think Andrew Luck is far and away the best player in the NFL at the moment. Destined for the Hall of Fame.
It’s nice to meet you, by the way. My name is Trent Dilfer. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go “study tape” for my “job” as an “expert” analyst.
I'm famous I made QBR!
which is like PBR but more people like PBR…
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
How do you know that. Ponder can't throw deep because our WR suck ass
Also, That throw to percy against atlanta was one of the better throws a QB has made all season. Also, we WILL NOT be in a position to draft LUCK so people need to stop talking about it. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!
Yeah
That play worked, so we’ve never used it again. Way better to throw to Aro tightly covered along the sidelines a bazillion times. snark
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
That throw was against a LB who didn't have safety help
I wouldn’t use it as an example, myself.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
And then kick themselves
over and over as Luck is leading the Colts to SBs.
About all we really know about Ponder is he could be a very good QB. The same could be said about Luck based off of what he has shown at Stanford.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
And so
You want to spend another draft pick on a QB?
If its Luck
Again, Luck trumps Ponder. If the Vikings have the 1st pick Ponder would be on the trade market at the beginning of the new year. Sorry that’s just they way it would be for me. I’d be talking to the teams in the top half of the draft and if need be I’d throw in our 4th rounder along with Ponder to get back into position to get a tackle.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Ponder's Trade Value
You are way overstating Ponder’s trade value here. With so many QBs available in the draft, we don’t get better than a 3rd rounder (a 2nd if we throw in our 4th rounder at best) for the kid. The move is to trade the pick and build our OL, secondary, and WR corp.
...really?
You see him as a 3rd round trade value? I disagree. But hey, I’m not in the NFL.
…yet. MUAHAHAHAHAHA
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
If you see him as a 3rd round value
Why wouldn’t you what to upgrade the most important position on the team to what many say is a can’t miss franchise QB?
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 8:23 AM CST up reply actions
Nothing wrong with that. Luck gets high praise for a reason.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
WOW. There is no WAY we can leap over two teams with two games left.
So why are you even taking about being able to draft luck, it will not happen. The colts will intentionally blow the last game if there is any chance at all they miss out on drafting luck.
If you take the teams left to play into account
We have already passed the Rams. With the remaining teams record already added into the SOS the Colts have 120 wins, the Vikings 127, and the Rams 130. It would more than likely take the Colts winning against both the Texans and the Jags. Not probable but not impossible either considering the Texans have clinched the division and have a 3rd string QB playing. And well the Jags are just awful so it could happen.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
Houston won 3 in a row with their "3rd string QB"
They want to push for home field advantage and the playoff bye. I dont think they will rest or sit back against the colts. and As of yesterday, the Rams are still ahead of the Vikes in the SOS battle, so we are currently still picking third
Don't have time to explain it to you
Read it for yourself and maybe you will believe it.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/135891503.html
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Yes I read that but it is wrong
The current SOS has the Rams higher in the draft order then the Vikes.
True but the DRAFT
Isn’t held until after the season is over. April in fact.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Also,
The Rams have Pittsburgh and San Fran in their last two games, no way they win either of those.
Which is why there SOS goes above ours
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
OK this is the last time I will try an explain this
As of right now the Vikings opponents to date have a 115-81 record. The Rams opponents have a 111-85 record. So technically the Rams hold the 2 spot right now. IF you include the remaining teams to be played records the Rams go to 132 wins and the Vikings to 127 wins. So to make this simple enough to understand in the remaining two weeks the Vikings opponents for the entire year would have to win 5 more games than the Rams opponents for the entire year.
Given the fact that you have already said they were going to lose their final 2 games that takes away those games already and I’m sure you already know most of the remaining games are inter-division games so that would make most games 50-50 win loss meaning we all but have the 2nd spot wrapped up.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
They play Pittsburgh in 3 days
and Big Ben, as evidenced last night, is clearly hobbled by that ankle injury. They’re gonna be bringing the heat. They’ve already upset the Saints, they might be able to upset the Steelers next.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
.. Driver's seat of what?
The division? No, we really wouldn’t. We’d still have to struggle with the D-line of the Bears and Lions. We’d have to waste another season letting another rookie QB figure out what throws he can or can’t make against the Packer’s DBs. Our secondary will likely still struggle against all the other 3 teams’ passing attack.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
To negotiate any deal for picks, players and such, or take Luck.
Having the top draft spot is good. It puts us in the driver’s seat.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
Ohhh.
Yes, agreed. I think we could make something happen with that #1 spot. Especially if the Colts are #2.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:14 PM CST up reply actions
381 yards
isn’t close enough to 400 for you?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Nothing Ponder does is good enough
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Ponder threw for 381 yards (pretty damn close to 400 yards BTW) and we still lose the game!
Our team is terrible! We need to fix our O-Line before we bail on Ponder. I’ve posted this before but our first pick needs to be Kalil, or we trade down and try to get more picks to fill our huge needs. With as many holes as we have, almost any player picked in any part of the round should be BPA and fill a need for us.
TROY AIKMAN WAS OVERRATED
Troy had a great running game with Emmitt Smith and a monster offensive line. Emmitt ran most of the game and when Troy went to throw, he had all day. A lot of mediocre QB’s would look good in that situation. If Aikman would have been on another team, he would have been very average.
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 6:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
If Overrated = Three Super Bowl Rings
Then I hope that Christian Ponder is at least as overrated as Troy Aikman, and possibly even more so.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
We don't have Jones or Switzer though. We got Frazier and Musgrave.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
Aikman's coach as a rookie
Was Jimmy Johnson.
The Cowboys still went 1-15 that year.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 20, 2011 8:54 PM CST up reply actions
Excellent take...
I love the Aikman take. Thats what i thought when we drafted Ponder…who i thought Ponder would mostly mirror…i just like his smarts and his size and ability…he needs the tools around him…Charlie is alright for the spot to his right…but we need a stud for Ponders blind side.
LT #1…then a shutdown corner, then a nice big wide receiver with big sticky mitts…theres a ton of em this year….dont be surprised if they sneak a stud linebacker in there…
Just try it...or you`ll never know
Give the kid a chance
Ponder had no off season OTAs or any other organized practices other than what he took upon himself; hell, he was not even able to step foot in the Viking’s training facilities. Give the front office an opportunity to make draft choices, release some players and hopefully pick up some free agents. If we are having this same conversation in November 2012, then we will agree we were wrong and the team can move on. Now is way too early to be dumping on the kid.
by TexasViking on Dec 19, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Good comments, Frank, very reasonable.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with most of what you say, frank_grimes.
It should not be assumed that Ponder is a franchise qb. But I don’t think he is regressing, I think that defenses now have film and scouting on him and know what he can and can’t do. Thus they are forcing him to play pressured and causing the recent bout of turnovers and such.
But Luck is “a top-notch prospect”. That is tough to pass on if it comes to the vikes having the top pick.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Then it should also not be assumed that Luck is a franchise QB.
He can be a “top-notch prospect” all he wants, but until he gets on that field and prove that he’s the best, he should not be treated like he’s the best.
If the Vikes draft Luck, I'd be up for keeping him and Ponder around for a year
to see which one is a better looking qb, and then maybe trading away the other guy at that time.
But if we have a shot at drafting first, i think we would be stupid to not consider taking Luck.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
The problem is,
with two young, inexperienced quarterbacks, you can’t judge what kind of quarterback they’ll be after their second (Ponder at the time of your scenario) and first year (Luck). Peyton Manning had a terrible rookie season. Troy Aikman and John Elway weren’t great. Rodgers didn’t play great the first year he started.
Yeah Rodgers had something like..
6 game-sealing interceptions out of their 10 losses.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
Problem? Well let's see. We'd have Luck, Webb and Ponder at QB.
And we need to re-build the team from the bottom up. I’m sure any nfl gm would love to have that problem. No problem at all.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Then you have 3 quarterbacks and no team.
Why not start building around who we have? Start that process now instead of waiting yet another year. The staff has confidence in Ponder or they would not have drafted him that high. Get him a line and some receivers and see what he can do instead of getting him a quarterback to compete with. He already has one of those. The more first round draft picks we waste on quarterbacks, the longer it will take to turn this team around. I refuse to buy into the hype of Luck. That he’s a once in a generation QB who will lead us to the promised land. Unless your name is Peyton Manning after 14 years in the NFL, no one player has that impact on a team. I’ll be the first to admit I’m wrong if Luck becomes the best quarterback ever, but I really don’t see him living up to all this hype that is swirling around here right now. Mostly because people see him as a savior, and any less than that will be a disappointment.
by SirGrizzly on Dec 19, 2011 10:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rodgers threw for over 4000 yards and 28 TDs to 13 INTs his first year as a starter
That is FANTASTIC numbers for a QB in his first full year of playing
Ponder hasn't had his first full year as a starter yet :)
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
That is why I did not comment on Ponders' ability
But I would be ecstatic if those were the number Ponder was able to put up in the next few years
And he sat on the sidelines for years behind Favre learning everything...
Frazier brought in a lazy butt so Ponder could sit, not someone you could actually learn from, like Favre. In spite of Favre’s meltdown it would have been a bazillion times smarter to have him show Ponder how to play the game than McNabb.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Which was also his 4th year in the league.
He had 3 full seasons to learn the playbook, and Greenbays receiving core is leagues better then ours is.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
He also got three damn years to sit
And adjust to the speed of the NFL game.
Oh, and the team he took over DID go to the NFCCG the previous year, which I’m guessing helped.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 20, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
The three damn years
also gave him the opportunity to completely revamp his throwing motion, which many significantly credit for his success when he finally got the chance to start. If he had started right way, who the hell knows if he might have become just an average QB.
Yep. That, and the fact that your front office and coaching staff
are good and have a plan. Our front office guys don’t seem to see the big picture. They thought we could be a play off team this year.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Yes i know, if you look my post was in response to giving ponder more time
That if he would have sat for 3 years first, he might be able to put up those numbers. but those numbers are still really really good for a QB in his first year of duty. doesnt matter how long he sat, it was his first year playing full time and he still did well. Also, pretty sure he said that Favre actively tried not to teach him things, all he could do was just watch.
actually Favre had no problems teaching,
he just wanted, and expected, Rogers to ask him. as was evidenced with Web. Aaron didn’t want much to do with Favre, but he still got to see him every day in practice and in the game film, that is a huge learning opportunity even unto itself.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
Ehh..
I dunno about that. Favre probably was a little chilly toward Rodgers. I mean he kind of still is.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
Hey this team went to the NFCCG just two years ago...
does that help? :p
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
That was a fluke. We are still paying for that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
Naw, that wasn't a fluke
We had gone to the playoffs the year before, and the previous year before that, we finished 8-8 and were in the Playoff race until week 16. The team was clearly improving.
And then last season was just a shit storm. And it carried over into this season. Guys started showing their age, our O-line struggled through injuries. But I think the real blame.. lies in Sidney Rice, for waiting so damn long to get his stupid surgery and leaving us without a decent wideout for half the season.
If we had him for that first half, those games would have been different, and he might have gotten resigned to stay here. But no, he waited like a moron and it hurt everyone. Way to go Rice.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions
And his 4th year overall....
meaning he had a chance to absorb the NFL level of play before getting the start.
In one sentence you say we shouldn't assume Ponder is a franchise Qb
But by taking Luck, aren’t we assuming he’s a franchise QB? The point is that either way it’s a crap-shoot. We took Ponder last year and he hasn’t done anything that would make us “assume” he’s not a franchise QB. I think we need to stick with him and build around him.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
There's different levels of "Franchise QB's"
There’s the P. Manning kind…
and then there’s the E. Manning kind.
I think people are considering Luck to be more like P. Manning.
And some are expecting Ponder to be more like E.Manning.
If I was the Vikings and I had the 1st overall pick…..I would trade in a heartbeat !
Both Peyton and Eli
have only one Superbowl ring, and at this point it looks like Eli has the better chance of getting another. Just sayin.
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 20, 2011 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
SB's are a team accomplishment....QB's get way too much credit!
Trent Dilfer has 1 ring.
Dan Marino has 0….but who would you rather have ?
P.Manning will retire as one of the greatest to ever play the game whether he plays again or not.
E.Manning is no P.Manning, but I would still keep him.
Point is, the Vikings don’t need Ponder to be as good as Peyton. They just need him to be like Eli, and I think Ponder can do that. So I would trade the #1overall pick.
by chaosg on Dec 20, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
meh I hated Marino when he played
Like Manning the team was him and I think that’s a bad idea.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I'm glad someone made this article.
The only way you draft a QB, is Luck with the first overall. That’s probably not going to happen. The 3 areas listed are of much, MUCH greater need. If you’re not big on Ponder, there is still Joe Webb.
What if...
We end up with the number 1 spot…who is going to trade us? Do we still draft Luck or do we draft who we want and let Indy draft him 2nd? If everyone KNOWS we wont draft another QB, why would they waste time and spots trying to trade with us.
For us, having the 1st pick of the draft may suck twice as bad.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Great point. If we end up with the 1st pick we have to take Luck or everybody will try and trade for the #2 pick.
Whether we keep Luck or trade him for say Kalil and a draft pick or some other package of picks and players is the debate. The only way the Vikings get full value with the 1st pick is to take the guy everybody wants to create leverage.
by CanadianViking on Dec 19, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
Um, no
Generally you trade first, not pick first. It could happen that way, but it’s much more likely that if we end up #1 we shop the heck of the right to pick Luck (or whoever) for the entire period between the end of the season and the draft to see what we can get.
Exactly, we can take control and create a market in that situation.
Luck is a better prospect than Ponder. He would no doubt get serious consideration by the Vikings.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
If no one will trade for teh pick,
they will trade for the player. in that case you take luck, and then trade him for the package you want. indy would be the logical choice as then you get Kalil plus the extra picks.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
Cleveland, the 'Skins, Miami.. possibly Seattle
Somebody’s going to want to get Luck before the others can get him.
Cleveland has the picks to make a deal to grab him and still come away with a decent draft.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
With that many QBs going, I dont see them trading all the way to #1 for him though..
Trading up to the top 10 ala Atlanta. sure.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
If he's going to be as amazing as everyone says
I don’t see why they wouldn’t want to give up some picks for the ‘best prospect in 20 years.’
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
huh?
If you are trading up, you have to get in front of Indy.
And if you don’t think he’s special or different from the other QBs, then you really shouldn’t be talking about the Vikes drafting him.
reading comprehension kids...
I never said the Viks SHOULD draft him. Im saying IF we end up with the 1st pick, we arent going to get anything for it because we dont NEED to draft another QB.
Seriously please quit skimming and making assumptions.
Ive said multiple times Luck has about as much chance at being the next HoF QB as anyone in the Draft.
The point is the analyst think he walks in water, but if we end up in the 1st spot its going to be a tricky pick set up for us.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
Again, huh?
Why, if we end up with the 1st pick aren’t we going to get anything for him? And what does whether we need a QB have to do anything?
What we can get for the pick is based on how much the other team wants to get Luck, and how high up they have to trade to get him.
And Indy will be #2 then and since we dont need him...
They will sit there and pick him up…
Try to follow along, ill try to get Kluwe to draw it for you if you want?
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
You're still not making sense
The pick is valuable to teams that are not Indy who want a quarterback. It’s more valuable because those teams will believe that Indy will pick him at #2. That means teams who want him as their QB will want to trade us stuff to get to pick #1.
But yeah, Indy isn’t going to trade up for him unless they believe we are really going to take him.
Other teams are not going to give us a new stadium for Luck...
I just dont see it happening. If we end up with the first pick I dont see it benefiting us unless we ala Manning the 2nd and trade him to Indy for something, which would be kinda ironic.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
So you think there isn't any interest in Luck outside of Indy?
Is that your point?
Because there is a lot of room between “a new stadium,” which I agree will not be on offer, and nothing.
I don’t think we will have any trouble getting a 1st and a 2nd this year for the pick, and I think we can likely get that plus another pick or a player.
agreed. There are many teams in need who would jump at the chance.
I’m not sure how a team is going to trade a new stadium though ;).
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
I know there is interest outside of Indy...
How many times has a team traded away the 1st pick in the draft however? Im going off memory, i think someone said earlier 0.
I love that the Vikings have some stats that they are first or tops in, I dont know that this would be a good one.
And yes the new stadium was a joke, i felt like saying a mint was too silly…cause all i ever think of is those little green things at the end of meals sitting next to the credit card receipt….
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
No, its happened before
I recall Ditka trading like an entire draft to pick up a RB with the #1 pick or something. Its been 0 times in recent years, but who can blame teams when they have to fork over like 60 mil guaranteed.
Now, with the rookie wage scale, it becomes far easier to trade picks. That’s not even mentioning that Luck is, you know, the hottest prospect in the last 20 years. I bet the Dolphins would love to get their hands on him. Their owner goes crazy for that kind of shit.
And so does Dan Snyder. And I’m sure the Jags would love to erase the Gabbert era from their fans’ minds by getting Luck.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:12 PM CST up reply actions
True. I think the high cost of the #1 pick had a lot to do with the lack of trades.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Ricky Williams
Ditka traded all of the Saints pick for him, but he was picked #5.
Obviously it was a joke
Which is why I went with it.
As for trading the first pick, I don’t know. Chris tells us that we got the #1 overall pick for Tark from the Giants, but I don’t know the details (i.e., maybe they didn’t know it was #1 when it was traded)?
It probably went like
‘we trade you Tarkenton for your first round pick.’ They agreed, blew ass, and the pick simply happened to be #1 overall.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:23 PM CST up reply actions
Atlanta traded into the number 1 spot to get Vick in 2001.
If a team wants it bad enough, they’ll do it.
The Chargers did twice
Michael Vick and Eli Manning
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
And Luck is a much better prospect than either of them.
It’s not even a fair comparison. But then again, it’s San Diego.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
Luck is a better prospect than Vick was?
Vick, who would revolutionize the game with his mobility and arm strength? No way. Luck is the ‘next-great’ but Vick was supposed to be legendary and change the position entirely.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
I never bought the Vick style hype, and I still don't.
Luck is at least a prototype.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Weren't you champion Webb because of his playstyle?
Which is similar to Vick’s.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
No. I'm more Randall Cunningham.
Plus, I’m a good human being, not a thug.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
I don't rememver
any one talking about Vick’s Thug Life wannabeness leading up to and shortly after the draft. that didn’t come out until years later.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
.. Yeah, exactly.
That’s why teams will.. trade with us to get the pick? So they can take Luck before Indy does? That’s.. kind of the whole point. Capitalizing on Luckmania.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
That would be perfect.
We could trade back to them, and even if Kalil is gone we could still, hopefully, get Martin. Or Blackmon. Either way, we get that big-talent everyone’s hoping for right now.
And we’d get a couple extra picks to boot.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
You could always pull a Eli Manning.
He said he didn’t want to play for the Chargers so no one thought they’d pick him but they picked him anyway and then just traded him away for what they could’ve gotten out of the draft pick. Different situation but it’s still kind of applicable. If everyone undervalues your pick because they think you won’t take a certain person, take that person and then trade him for his full value.
Because if they didn’t then the Colts would take him.
by Zach_Bodenner on Dec 20, 2011 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
However, it is not other teams knowing we do not want to take luck
It will be other teams wanting to move AHEAD of other teams to draft him.
If we have the first pick
We have until April to see what we could get for Ponder. If a deal comes for Ponder that is good enough to fill other needs than trade Ponder and take Luck. If no such deal comes trade the pick for the kings ransom or take Luck and try to trade Ponder later. Either way the first priority should be to try and find a way to get the surer fire QB on the team.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 2:52 PM CST reply actions
If someone tries to trade us for Ponder id be shocked...
If we were able to trade Ponder for a 1st round pick, id be shocked.
Im not a huge fan of the kid, but id still like to see him get one more full year under his belt before we tar and feather him and toss him in the lake.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
I wouldn't be shocked
I actually am a fan of Ponder and think he has shown enough to be a franchise QB. This is something the Dolphins, Redskins, Browns, and Seahawks don’t have. While Ponder has regressed a bit over the last couple of games the facts are he shows poise and a good grasp of the NFL game. So I wouldn’t be shocked to see someone offer a first for a NFL ready QB.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
Ill give you the Dolphins in that
But i dont see the others trying that hard.
Browns need an O line and D possible worse then us.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
If you think he can be a franchise QB
Why on earth would you want to draft a different guy?
Oh I don't know
Why would Indy draft Luck with Manning on the roster? While I know he may not play again, what if he does for say another 4-5 years, would the Colts look at getting Luck to take over after as a mistake? If all the HYPE about Luck is true then a guy that could win multiple championships is worth taking over a guy that may win you some playoff games. Not saying Ponder doesn’t have what it takes to win the big game but I’d like my chances better with Luck.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 5:27 PM CST up reply actions
Because Manning is old
But you knew that, and posed a dumb question anyway.
by amiller92 on Dec 19, 2011 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Minus his neck injury
I don’t know if the Colts would be considering taking Luck. Of course minus the neck injury the Colts wouldn’t be in the position to take him anyhow. If you think Ponder will lead the Vikings further than Luck would there is really no reason to discuss this any further. I happen to see things differently.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
I think Luck comes with a lot of uncertainty
Ponder, having played in the league, slightly less.
The question is whether the marginal eventual improvement of Luck over Ponder is enough to give up either 1) a stud LT or 2) the package of picks you can get in trade.
Given the uncertainty, say no way. I don’t want to spend that much on a 30% chance of the next Manning, 60% chance of the next Carr or Palmer, and 10% chance of bust.
For the future..
The situations aren’t even comparable.
One team just drafted a QB the past draft, who has played a whole 8 games and had his share of highlights and lowlights.
The other has a 36 year old QB who’s reaching the end of his career.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
For an upgrade....
The Vikings don’t have so much invested in Ponder that they couldn’t cut bait with him and upgrade the position. Hell that’s what football is all about, upgrading positions if a so called can’t miss player come along you take him and make adjustments. If the Vikings had the line of thinking when Taylor lead the team with 1200+ yards we wouldn’t have Peterson now.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
That's what the new cba was about. Ponder is very inexpensive.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
I wasn't so much referring to salary
As I was to time invested in him. You bring up a very good point with that however, his salary makes him even easier to trade
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
Well, I think the rookie wage scale was lowered to allow teams
to not get stuck with those huge rookie contracts, and allow them to craft more freely. I was shocked to read about Cam Newton’s rookie contract. And Ponder’s is less than half of his. It adds flexibility to teams in the rebuilding process. We could have 2 first round qbs that cost a fraction of a Sam Bradford or Matt Stafford contract. The money game is different now.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 11:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Taylor was 27 turning 28
When we drafted Peterson. You can’t really compare QBs and RBs but if you did, it’s a similar situation with the Colts and Manning. 28 at a position whose shelf life is about 30 means you don’t have a lot of good years left. 36 at a position who shelf life can range from mid 30s to 40s means you don’t have a lot of good years yet. Peterson is a once in a decade sort of beast at RB, there’s no denying that, but isn’t it possible that they were taking BPA while planning for the future? I imagine the Colts are thinking the same thing.
Didn't see this post, but yeah.
lol We pretty much made the same one.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:10 PM CST up reply actions
They have a one year old #12 pick
What more could they have invested? Last year 1-11 I guess, but that’s about it.
And there is a difference between upgrading when you have a solid team you’re trying to improve and upgrading one of your few solid spots when you suck.
Taylor wasn't just recently drafted, either
They had just traded for him, yes, but, if I recall correctly, he was like 27 at the time. That’s getting up there for RB anyway, and Peterson was a top 3 talent who fell.
I just don’t see how Ponder has shown enough that people are so confident pulling the plug on him just because Luck is the next big thing. It’s not Ponder-lust, I’m just.. baffled.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:10 PM CST up reply actions
Because he is a top one talent, at qb, maybe the best prospect in 10 years.
And most teams don’t ever get a chance to draft that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
Most teams also didn't just use their #1 pick
on a QB the year before.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
It's not pulling the plug
However if the chance to draft the top QB prospect is dumped at your doorstep you’d be a fool not to take advantage of it. Ponder has value just like Kobb, Cassell, and Hasslebeck to name a few all have as well. You have to take a chance that all these scout know what they are talking about and take Luck and try to get the most value you can out of Ponder. Whether that be this draft or holding on to him until we get the deal we want. Personally I think they get enough for him to pick up Martin or Reiff in the draft this year.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
From Ponder?
Naww. I really don’t think some team will trade for him over a fresh rookie. Not that high. Maybe the Jags would.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
I think the Dolphins would
Since it was rumored they planned on taking him with the 15th pick last year. I also think Ponder holds more value than most rookies as he has already gotten his feet wet sorta speak.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
I think you mean he shown enough that he could be a "starting qb" for an NFL team.
I’d say the verdict is pretty far out on whether he is a “franchise qb” at this point in his career.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
Absolutely not
We have a guy who looks like he can be a capable quarterback. And we have a dynamic athlete as his backup.
Getting yet another QB in the mix should be way, way down on the priority list, as Chris explained.
That's just one perspective, another is that getting Andrew Luck is hard to pass up.
Because he is a much more complete package and much more accomplished in college than Ponder was. I think it would be just a rare opportunity, if it happens.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:12 PM CST up reply actions
How in the world do you think we will pass over two teams in order to draft Luck?
It is not going to happen, so why are you people talking like it is an actual reality that we might be able to draft him?
Well, its just one team.. The Colts..
And their remaining games are much more favorable to win than our own. Raise your hand if you thought they’d beat the Titans.
I didn’t think so. They could handle the Jags. The Texans are going to be more difficult but, like the Dolphins this year, or the Lions last year, they could get some momentum going from their last win and make a run at the end of the season.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
If anyone thinks that Luck, Barkley, Griffin (whatever…) makes this team better I think they need to calm down a bit and look to history. not just the Vikes, but most NFL teams.
The greatest Viking teams in the history of the franchise all started on the O-Line. Yary, Tinglehoff, White… Zimmerman, Lowdermilk, McDaniel,Birk, hell, even Stuessie, Christy and Kalis… etc.
We dont need another QB. Ponder will develop. We need an O-line that can actually block. Were about 100 light years from being competitive again and to grab a QB, when we already have one, would be crazy. Period.
I agree with the potential that Luck, Barkley and Griffin have. I’d love to have Barkley. But purple people, we already have a great prospect in Ponder. His O-line is giving him “Carr Syndrome”. We need to rebuild the O-line first and foremost. We have AP… if we get an O-line, kids like Ponder, Rudolph and Harvin can go nuts and AP will benefit as well.
I dont even want to talk about the defense. I might trade down and get more quality picks if we cant get Kalil. But I would not dump Ponder/draft a new QB at this point.
by Viking64 on Dec 19, 2011 2:56 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Yep, that's the way to build a good o-line, draft them high.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
Who says we pick the lineman first or second
How about trading down?
That could work too, depending on the trade partner
If its somebody picking in the top 10, I think that would be too good to pass up.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
How are we supposed to trade down though
if we are using our pick on Luck (or barkley if 2nd) as is the point of this post
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Absolutely this^
Im glad we posted this subject it has reconfirmed you can be a fan and know jack about football. Point I make is the team does not need another QB and honstly what makes a franchise qb? The fact he plays on a team and wins over the haul not before. The people that keep rolling that out dont get, it was an over all career with one team that made them “franchise.” The TEAM is broke in a huge way. Taking Luck is not going to fix it. It will put off the rebuild. First if Ponder totaly sucked that would be different but he doesnt. And all you stat playing guys that want to keep trying to list stats to guage the future should be selling snake oil. You put Ponder as the starter of any of the teams in the play off hunt right now and he wins. The Vikes have a QB it now time to build the spots needed. I think some of the posts here really show how people still think one guy is the answer. The Vikes are so far away from any contention in the next 3-4 years. They should be building the Oline and the pass protection then WR. As far as showing signs of regressing, on this team with the Oline and WR how could you not? Im thiniking some here say and agree yeah the line sucks and there is no real WR threat but dont really get just how bad it is and the overall effect. Most seem to have already decided the coaching staff needs to go Ponder is not the future. LOL these fans are gioing to have one hella hard time over the next 3- 4 years and thats if everything goes good in a rebuild.
@}-----You've been Touched-----{@
by Velvetouch on Dec 19, 2011 9:38 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Well said.
ALso, If you look how good SF is doing right now, they are doing it with a QB everyone had given up on and he was a #1 pick. Why is he doing so well this year? because they spent 4 of their first/second round picks the last few years on the O-line. If the vikings truely want to get better they must address multiple positions on the O-line this year
I agree with what your saying any viking fan knows we stink at every position except back field.How ever you have to take luck if he is there period.I like ponder this mess we are in is not his fault but you are talking about a purebread in luck.We all want secondary and oline wideouts so do I.But if luck is there and we take him there will be teams pounding on our door with offers.However this means nothing to me if the vikes move I have been a viking fan since I was a little boy.My football days are over if they move.Merry Xmas all.
We need to go OLineman with the top pick
There are no FA Linemen. We can try to partially fill a couple holes in free agency in the other important categories.
From the game thread – the top 50 FAs for 2012:
FA Receivers:
-Mike Wallace(Restricted)
-Jermichael Finley (Tight End, but really a receiver)
-Wes Welker
-Dwayne Bowe
-DeSean Jackson
-Vincent Jackson
-Marques Colston
-Stevie Johnson
-Reggie Wayne
-Brandon Lloyd
FA OLinemen:
-Carl Nicks (G)
-Ben Grubbs (G)
-Kareem McKenzie (T)
FA DBs:
-Cortland Finnegan (CB)
-Brent Grimes (CB)
-LaRon Landry (S)
-Terrell Thomas (CB)
-Carlos Rogers (CB)
-Rashean Mathis (CB)
-Tracy Porter (CB)
-Michael Griffin (S)
-Lardarius Webb (CB)
-Brandon Carr (CB)
-Tyvon Branch (S)
-Tim Jennings (CB)
LaRon Landry
I’d love to see us pick him up. He’d be a great addition to our secondary. Couple him with Antoine Winfield and a good draft pick and our secondary is much better.
He's having achilles tendon surgery or something
I dunno how well he’s going to bounce from that. The last thing we need is another player in our secondary not performing at full force because of a nagging injury.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
An injured LaRon Landry is heads and shoulders above what we have right now.
He’s definitely streets ahead.
I dunno
An Achilles injury makes me kind of leery. I’m sure he would be better than what we have, but by how much? I dunno if it would be streets. Landry isn’t all that well known for his cover skills, its mostly his big hits.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
and the realistic targets there are even smaller
Wes is really good, but plays teh same spot as Harvin so would be a reduntent signing rather then upgrading our corpse, Dwayne Bowe would be a good pick up though, so would DeSean Jackson.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
My point
was that Welker was slightly redundant with Harvin, there is only room for one Slot receiver on the field at one time, and Harvin has really struggled on the outside. So if we did go after and sign Welker then only one or the other could be on the field at a time. and that would be a waste of both their talents. Which is why I said that Bowe and DeSean would be better targets to go after.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 9:13 PM CST up reply actions
this is Greg Camarillo's problem
he’s a slot-possesion style receiver, too. that was his role in miami, after welker left for NE, actually, and he played solid there. but harvin is such a better talent, there just isn’t much room for camarillo right now
Jackson would be good for talent
He’d be our Bernard Berrian who can actually be successful, buuut.. he’s got a little T.O. in him in terms of toxicity. I dunno if I’d want him on the team after he gets a huge contract.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
rough game yesterday for you guys....things'l improve.
You’re in a tough situation…honestly I think it has to come down to Kalil or Claiborne for you guys. They say that the second most important position on a football team is LT. Honestly though…until the sieve in the secondary is fixed, you can have the world’s best offensive line and still go 8-8. You have a good foundation with Ponder and Harvin and Peterson. With a better D your offense can be more balanced and ball controlling and keep you in the game. I think Claiborne would be the right pick for you guys. So before I get rolled for being a Saints fan….best of luck. Purple’s my favorite color after all.
And a shout out to Grimes…always a classy and fun guy when he drops by CSC.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
Hold on there, If there isa way to eek out a little more "worse", I know our boys can do it.
“I believe.”
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
Cook isn't gone for sure... yet,
and there are some good FA corners potentially available. Kalil is our pick, if he is gone we take Martin. We need a D coordinator worse than players. I remember Williams bringing guys in off the street when your secondary was hurt in ‘09, but they still made plays. You just can’t coach or scheme adequate play out of a bad LT.
I just want to say
That my headline was funnier.
But your content was better.
O-Line
All i want for April is an o-freaking-line.
Ponder has looked very good in a few games (the first GB game, Carolina, and Denver) yea, he had some rookie bad decisions, but he was poised, and gave the offense an opportunity to win.
He’s going to be very good, if we give him the tools to win. WRs come and go, we’ll pick one up if we pay for them, or get lucky in the draft or rookie FA (look at Laurent Robinson).
NO ONE LETS GOOD LINEMEN GO AWAY (except for the Vikings of course, Birk, McKinny even though he was out of shape, he couldn’t have been worse than Johnson)
Draft linemen linemen linemen
then get some secondary help too.
when asked by Dan Patrick if his name alluded to not making quick decisions in the pocket, Ponder calmly replied "As crazy as it sounds, my mom's maiden name is actually Superbowlwinner. All one word"
April is a holiday now?!
Yes!!!!!
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Birk
hated Chilli, he. we offered Birk more money but he knew Chilli was garbage and wanted out. as for McKinnie, we were up against the cap, McKinnie was out of shape and refused to restructure his contract. so those were exceptions even for us.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
This is going to be a bit off-topic,
But in a lot of the articles today I’ve read say that Ponder takes the blame for this loss, like losses of other weeks.
My question is this: Why the hell isn’t the rest of the team taking ANY responsibility? Yeah, Ponder is the QB, but he’s a rookie and the O-LINE is supposed to protect him. Someone from on there, TAKE SOME OF THE BLAME!! It’s their fault he has about half a second to react to throwing to mediocre receivers (besides Percy of course).
It just pains me to see the rookie trying to take ALL the blame when this is a TEAM sport.
by christian220896 on Dec 19, 2011 3:17 PM CST reply actions
This is nuts
LT is as important as QB? So the Pats, Packers, and Saints are all dominant because they have pro bowl LT’s Do we now only get 1 draft pick? So if we do get a shot at Andrew Luck with the #1 pick, we need to pass on him because we have bigger needs? There aren’t going to be any guys who can fill those holes in the later rounds? I’m not saying that I’m definitely done with Ponder and it’s time to move on, or that there aren’t a lot of holes to fill in, but I think a lot of you are over-thinking this.
If you get a shot at a once in a decade QB prospect – you take him and figure out what to do with Ponder. This would actually be a good problem to have. Just because we take Luck doesn’t mean that Ponder has no value. I think all of this losing is effecting people’s brains.
by Torstein on Dec 19, 2011 3:17 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
it's a question of value
A first round pick should be a guy who can start right away. If we take luck, we’ve used two high first round picks and only gotten one starter. Something gotta give. We can’t afford to pay that cost.
That mean trade the pick or trade Ponder.
by amiller92 on Dec 19, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Value is exactly the reason you take Andrew Luck with the 1st pick
It’s probably a moot point because I doubt if we’ll be picking first overall, but I can’t believe we would take a LT over a guy who’s about as sure a franchise QB as you’re ever going to find in the draft. I can find a LT later in the draft. Look at the Saints line – their LT was a fourth round pick. I like Kalil a lot and if we have the 2nd pick – fine go ahead and take him. But only the Vikings could screw up taking Andrew Luck with the first pick if they happen to get it.
by Torstein on Dec 19, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Or
You can trade down and get your left tackle and a corner.
Trading down
Would get us a another first and second this year, and probably another second next year.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
And become even a bigger laughingstock...
That traded away the most surefire franchise QB to come along in the last 20 years. Hasn’t the F.O. screwed up enough? I can see it now all the people wanting to trade down will be the same ones ridiculing the front office for trading away what would have been our franchise QB for a bunch of picks that ended up being busts.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 19, 2011 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
and if Luck turns into a bust?
I don’t think people are laughing at Houston for not taking Reggie Bush and he was supposedly the most dynamic player to enter the draft in years.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
by TroyW18 on Dec 19, 2011 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Screwing up
Would be stockpiling first round QBs. Way more laughs there.
No one would laugh at trading the pick for two firsts. That you would even think that tells me you have a grossly overrated opinion on Luck.
Shit, if we traded the Luck pick
and got 2 solid starters out of it, I think they would call the trade even, assuming Luck doesn’t turn into, like.. Joe Montana.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
He couldn't
Because no one thought highly of Montana coming out of college, except, perhaps, his mother, so he was drafted 82nd and worked his butt off and had the fortune of playing under genius coaches.
No way that Luck can live up to all the hype. It will destroy him.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
Take a look at those quarterbacks
Brady and Belichick have been together running the same system for a decade. And they’ve always had a pretty solid offensive line.
Rodgers and McCarthy have been together running the same system since 2006. And Clifton was a pretty good left tackle in his time.
Brees and Payton have been together running the same system since 2006. And their offensive line is pretty damn good.
Ponder and Frazier have been together running the same system for eight games, and we have the biggest sieve of an offensive line in the NFL.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 19, 2011 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I know we need a lot of new talent on the O-Line – all I’m saying is that you don’t need to take one with the no. 1 overall pick. There are lots of ways to build an O-line – but you only get a shot at a guy like Luck once.
QB is the most important position in all of pro sports IMO. If you have a shot at getting a guy who can be dominant at that position for a decade, you take him.
maybe that's the confusion
Because I don’t think we should take one with the number one pick. We trade down out of the number 1 and get more picks.
wanna hear something funny...
I think that too….
But i worry if we end up 1 and 2, noone is going to give us enough to make us trade down…
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
If you are going to take a LT witht he #1 over all
then Kalil is the guy you use it on. and it would not be the first time a LT would be taken first. LT’s traditionally give you the most value at #1 because it is the most important position after the QB, and they bust at a far lower rate, skills and size at LT translate from college to the pro’s much better then do the QB stats in part because of all the exotic systems in college that wouldn’t work in the pro’s
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Well
the Saints Oline might not be very lauded, but no one is calling them “worst in the League” and they kept JA out of Bree’s face all day, so yea, they are pretty good.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
No it gets some serious credit
They have a solid O-line from tackle to tackle.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Ponder
I really like CP7 and think with an o-line and receivers, he could be really good. The only way he is not our qbotf is if we get the number 1 pick. Number 1 has to be Andrew Luck. He is a once in a generation type qb and the best prospect since Elway. I know that we need ol/wr/db way more right now, but he is just that good. This is not a Manning/Leaf comparison, no one said either one of them would be the next Elway. Otherwise no Barkley/RG3 because our needs are much greater elsewhere. Like GM.
Don't you know who the *^$% I am?
by Jeppernaut on Dec 19, 2011 3:23 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Vikes probably won't get the true #1 pick so I think we are talking theory here.
But what about entertaining Payton Manning straight up for the #1 to the Colts? Haha might as well if we’re talking theoretical.
by Jepp The Viking on Dec 19, 2011 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Yep.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
No thanks
Isn’t he turning 36? That’s not even close to be worth a #1 overall selection.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
huh?
I don’t specifically recall anyone saying, “next Elway” about Manning and Leaf, but I do recall everyone thinking they were both sure-fire franchise QBs.
I’m not even sure where “next Elway” came from as a means of saying, “OMG, Best EVAH!”
You know what? I love Matt Barkley. If I knew last year that he was going to be available, I’d have loved for the Vikes to take someone else instead of Ponder just so they could grab him this year…or next. However, I’d bet you could put any QB back there and (unless he’s Manning, Brees, Brady) he will get killed with Charlie Johnson as LT.
That said, don’t people usually advocate drafting BPA instead of drafting needs?
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on Dec 19, 2011 3:27 PM CST reply actions
Luck
The Cowboys still owe us for their championships…3 first rounders, 3 2nd rounders and Romo for Luck should do!!
by ConnecticutViking77 on Dec 19, 2011 3:29 PM CST reply actions
Except they can keep Romo
I’m sure we can find someone on our current roster who can screw up a hold for a FG attempt.
Romo sounds like punishment...
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
but he looks good in a baseball cap
plus we can then move Webb to receiver to help another area and get the best athlete on the team on the field..
by ConnecticutViking77 on Dec 19, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
The only thing is
I hope Luck, Griffen and Barkley come out for the draft so there is more tempt for other teams to take them rather than snatching up something the Vikes need. I really want those guys to come out!!!!!
IF YOU THINK REEM SHOULD BE RATED ANY HIGHER THAN AROUND THE #5 HEAVYWEIGHT (AND THAT IS STRETCHING IT) THEN YOU ARE A FLIPPIN MORON, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Jeebus, the people that swear
Andrew Luck is a ’can’t miss’ are some of the same people who said the exact same things about Ryan Leaf.
I never have understood the thought process of thinking that and unproven college kid is automatically better than a guy already in the NFL. I’ve even seen guys refer to both Luck and Ponder as ‘prospects’.
Luck is a prospect. Ponder is an NFL quarterback.
An inexperienced NFL quarterback with an offensive coordinator that looks like he’s in over his head.
An inexperienced NFL quarterback that has one of the worst o-lines in the modern history of the game.
An inexperienced NFL quarterback that has nothing outside of Percy Harvin to throw to that put fear into defenses…and he has been rendered irrelevant by the porous line.
To say we should piss away a top 3 pick on a quarterback, when it looks like we have a quarterback that can be above average to very good for a long time given some protection and weapons is stunningly incompetent.
The Vikings needs to fill holes up and down the roster, but QB is not one of them.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
by Ted Glover on Dec 19, 2011 3:58 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Agreed
I don’t know about the rest of you, but every time I’ve seen Luck on national TV in a “game of the week” type setting, I have been very……underwhelmed by him. Specifically the Oregon games in the last two years. Granted, living in the Midwest and having very little interest in Pac10/12 football, I hardly ever see him play, so I could be missing out on seeing the “real” Luck.
I don’t think he’ll be a bust or anything. But I get the feeling that the people looking to draft him as the “next Peyton Manning” will really be getting the next Eli. A perfectly fine franchise QB, capable of great success with the right pieces around him, but not the All-Time Great, difference between making the playoffs and going 1-15, type of QB they’re looking for.
Angelo: Right….so anyways Jay, I’m sure you understand that we needed to make this move and I wanna wish you the best of luck.
Cutler: (Swoops bangs out of eyes by throwing his head back) Whatever, I don’t need this team or you.
/Leaves in a huff
//Writes bad poetry on his blog
Grossman: What the fuck is Wilford Brimley’s problem?
Having it both ways?
Well, in this post you say that Ponder is not a lowly prospect but a BIG BOY NFL QUARTERBACK. However, I think I have seen you state elsewhere that people shouldn’t attempt to draw conclusions based on eight starts with a crappy supporting cast. That smacks of attempting to have it both ways. Either he should be evaluated based on his time as an NFL QB or everyone should suspend judgment until next year.
Where'd all the Webb people go?
Not 2 days ago we were arguing whether Webb deserves a shot at starting the last 2 games to showcase himself. You guys do realize if we draft Luck, Webb will never see the field as a Viking right?
Well
At QB, anyway. Unless Musgrave wants to run the option again. With Ponder at fullback. And Gerhart at WR.
Webb himself
Said playing QB feels natural to him. It’s his native position. I honestly don’t think he’ll ever amount to much as a WR
Huh?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
No opportunity missed to start a Webb discussion apparently.
I consider myself to be a Webb supporter. I didn’t advocate switching horses for the rest of the season, but I’ve been pretty vocal in my support of Webb. So I guess I would qualify as a “Webb person.”
If Luck’s on the table, I take Luck. Then I’d let the discussion start on whether we keep or trade Ponder or Webb. :-)
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Well, that would about seal Webb's fate
He’d be moved over to WR for good.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
No, I would force the team to trade me to Carolina.
Then me and my boy Cam would run circles around yall.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
Trade Webb
Simple.
Or let Webb back up Luck, and trade Ponder.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
You can't trade him!!
He’s got way too much athletic ability to not be on the field for us as WR, QB, KR, PR, CB, S, and RB!!
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:47 PM CST up reply actions
We should see if Webb can kick.
Then he could just go out on the field from the very beginning and not leave it once the entire game.
I tried to stay reasonable, but since you have to be “that guy”… You forgot DE, DT, OL, LS, PK, and P : )
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:58 PM CST up reply actions
Damnit, you got me.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
Whoa. Whoa whoa.
Whoa.
Webb as Long Snapper? come on man. That’s what Cullen Loeffler is for.
Gawd. Get with the program.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
I'd hate to hear what that sounds likw when you play it backwards.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
He’s got too athletic of an ass for him not to be bending over constantly. C’mon man, you gotta appeal to the ladies too.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
We already have
Shiancoe. He’s here for the ladies, giving them sneak peeks during locker room ceremonies.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Christopher, totally with you! 100%
And I’m going to out on a limb here and say that if we are able to surround Ponder with some asemblence of talent in the OL and out wide that he would thrive in the NFL.
I know that our secondary is currently dreadful, and that constantly playing from behind makes a QB’s job a lot harder, but I believe we should focus our top 2 draft picks in getting Ponder those tools to allow him to develop. if he has another season with that offense then he could be done.
by Scottish Viking on Dec 19, 2011 4:09 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Here's an different kinda argument for the Luck people to consider
I’m thinking that a championship-level team drafts for need, team chemistry, and whether they are teachable into the system, although sign-and-trades can sometimes be important. If you have a need at quarterback, then draft him. Right now is not when we should be taking another quarterback or even the BPA.
In my head, I also think that a second-rate team drafts BPA and ends up with a pile of people at one position who do nothing to help the team win.
I’m not on the Luck train, and here’s why:
Of the following list of who I think were great quarterbacks, only 4 out of the best of the last 5 decades were the number one pick. Did they win Super Bowls and have stellar careers? Yep. But are there other guys who were successful? Absolutely.
The following quarterback draft list is just food for thought:
Fran Tarkenton – Rd 3, pick 29
Dan Marino – Rd 1, pick 27
John Elway – Rd 1, pick 1
Joe Montana – Rd 3, pick 82
Drew Brees – Rd 2, pick 32
Tom Brady – Rd 6, pick 199
Brett Favre – Rd 2, pick 33
Aaron Rodgers – Rd 1, pick 24
Bart Starr – Rd 17, pick 199
Johnny Unitas – Rd 9, pick 102
Peyton Manning – Rd 1, pick 1
Troy Aikman – Rd 1, pick 1
Terry Bradshaw – Rd 1, pick 1
Ben Roethlisberger – Rd 1, pick 10
Sammy Baugh – Rd 1, pick 6
Otto Graham – Rd 1, pick 4
Roger Staubach – Rd 1, pick 129
Steve Young – Supplemental USFL and CFL draft
On the other hand, the number one quarterback pick is littered with both successes and a lot of failures at the NFL level.
Round One, Number One quarterback picks since 1944:
Bertelli, Dancewicz, Gilmer, Wade, Garrett, Shaw, Hill, Duncan, Gabriel, Baker, Concannon, Bradshaw, Plunkett, Bartkowski, Elway, Aikman, George, Manning, Couch, Vick, Carr, Palmer, Manning, Smith, Russell, Stafford, Bradford.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 4:14 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Big problem on the d line
No team has given up more points this year than the Vikings. More than twice as many as SF, and their offense is nothing special. Our d line is a bigger need than DB because we can upgrade DBs thru FA signings – several dozen options.
We can run AD if we are always behind – which we have been a lot the past 5 games. We can’t stop teams in 4th quarter. Our problems go WAY beyond secondary. The no Ints is partly a result of limited pressure. Yes Allen is a beast but none of the other D line players is causing havoc. Our speed at LB is terrible. Our LBs are weak in coverage BECAUSE they are slow. I agree our secondary needs an overhaul but rookie corners rarely do well and we have lots of FA options. I might consider drafting a safety if he is an immediate impact player.
We need impact players. We also need a veteran backup QB who can compete with Ponder. Competition is good and will help ensure we are covered at QB.
Agree that O line is likely #1 priority but D line would be my number 2, WR #3, and using FA signings for secondary. We could also target M. Colston or Wallace in FA signings.
If we can address OL, DL, and get a WR this year, we can work on upgrades to secondary next year. Too many holes to plug all at once. But cementing Sullivan, loadholt, hopefully move Johnson to guard and with our current backups, we could be a lot better next year.
We need the impact DT – which Kwill used to be. Robison must improve also.
But also remember with just 2-3 players on offense, we could be a top half offense. Ponder, Rudolph, Harvin, AD, Jenkins as a very good #3 receiver – we have talent. But other than Allen, we have no play makers on D.
I’ll sat it again, most points allowed in NFL. 49ers giving up half as many points and they have a weak offense.
Need impact defensive players.
by Vikefandc on Dec 19, 2011 4:16 PM CST via mobile reply actions
We would have to give up at least our 1st rd pick this year to get wallace
so he is not really an option
Count me in the draft Luck camp
I know you are taking a chance with drafting a QB #1, but drafting a LT or WR or CB is not exactly 100% either.
Griffin and Barkley would be embrassingly awful picks. But Luck is as close to a can’t miss as we’ve seen. I know top of the draft QBs get hyped every year but I don’t ever remember one guy getting this much consensus for this long. I’ll take my chances with him and then you get what you can for Ponder.
I really like Ponder and I’ll be fine having the 2nd or 3rd pick and building around him. But Luck is LeBron James.
what you say here can, and will, be used against you The Daily Gopher
The difference is
That we did not draft a LT or WR or CB in the first round last year. And the QB we did draft looks like he can be a solid starter at his position.
How much can do you think you could get in a trade for the right to draft “LeBron James?”
Luck to Minnesota
Would be exactly like Lebron in Cleveland. Absolutely nothing around him to help him succeed. Lebron’s in Miami now, where he has two solid pieces to work with and is looking to win a NBA championship, and I like his chances.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
Except Lebron James dissapeared in the 4th quarter of the big game.
Luck rises to the occasion.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
???
We don’t have any idea how Luck with do in the NFL, or if he’ll rise to the occasion in the 4th quarter in a big NFL game. Most people thought Ryan Leaf was a better QB than Manning.
We need to stay with Ponder, and get him some help on the O-line.
I AM VIKING, HEAR ME ROAR!!!
I don't remember that.
But I do remember the Colts saying before the draft that one of the two was the real deal, and that the other might not make it as a QB. Then when the draft came around they picked Manning. They were pretty confident on which was the better pick, and they nailed it.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Ponder is our Drew Brees
and Luck is Phillip Rivers. Sure, Phillip Rivers has the better measurables and tools, but Brees is more than capable of getting the job done as well with a good cast around him.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Best case scenerio, Drew Brees. They have similar attributes.
But, he also compares to Sanchez and McCoy. Good, not great.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
I dunno about McCoy, but the Sanchez comparison is probably closer than Brees
They’re both kind of ‘clutch’ QBs. To his credit though, Sanchez has made it to the AFC Championship game 2 years in a row. Thanks in part to his supporting caste.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
The defense and running game took them to the AFC championship games.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 19, 2011 5:38 PM CST up reply actions
Sanchez converted on 3rd downs when he had to.
Sounds kind of familiar.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:51 PM CST up reply actions
funny how we seem to always have third and long.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 12:03 AM CST up reply actions
That's what happens with shit on the O-line
You can’t get yards running.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
Our offensive is ranked one of the top rushing teams in the league.
Maybe if we ran the ball more on 1st and 2nd down, then Ponder would have less incompletions and interceptions.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
We also have the best RB in the NFL to make up for our shitty line.
Are you seriously arguing we have a good O-line?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
giggle.
Our offensive is ranked one of the top rushing teams in the league.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
How well did Luck
“Rise to the occasion” against Oregon the last few years?
You are exactly Right!
Lets lay this whole draft another quarterback thing to bed and lets be smart about who to pick. Kalil, Claiborne or Blackmon. Screw the “Suck for Luck”. We will “Keel over for Kalil” or “Collapse for Claiborne” and last but not least, “Bend over for Blackmon”!
WE NEED A GM
In order to maintain a semblance of respectability. Otherwise this jumping to the next best thing will doom this franchise more than it already has been doomed. Not really doomed, but unlucky at attaining the Holy Grail. We need a good GM that will keep the long term focus of the team. We have a QB who has shown very good qualities. I cannot blame him for being shell shocked these last two games. Teams know that we cannot compete, especially when more and more players are either getting hurt or shutting it down. Throwing him to the curb would making us a laughing stock. And more importantly, we can win with Ponder if we actually put a team around him. If Dilfer can fucking win, Ponder can’t?
Tough choice
We gotta give Ponder another year. If by some miracle, we get the first overall pick, We should trade it for a hefty price. I’m definitely not convinced that he’s the guy, but I’m not convinced that he isn’t a potential franchise guy either. Quite frankly, he’s had some awesome moments and shown lots of potential, and has had terrible, alarming moments as well, but, if we draft another quarterback high, we are only setting the franchise back another year. We need to focus the next few drafts on building a team around Ponder. Even if we find out in five years that Ponder was a failure, at least we’d have a much better team for the next guy to work with. There are just too many chasms- not just holes, chasms- on this team for us to give up on a very high draft pick after one year.
First Vikings memory: age 5, crying in front of the tv with my dad after the '98 NFC championship game.
by Sburrillbowen14 on Dec 19, 2011 4:47 PM CST reply actions
Colts Win out
We get #1 pick. We trade to Cleveland for 2 firsts and Joe Thomas. Super Bowl celebration ensues.
Hahah! I wish we could get Joe Thomas and 2 firsts
Shit, I’d trade the #1 for Joe Thomas and a single first.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
Ponder may not be the answer but you CANT take another QB this year.
I am not sold on Ponder but you can’t take another QB. We need to go offensive line and defensive back for the next FEW years. If Ponder doesn’t grow…well at least we will have good draft picks. Let’s be honest this team isn’t going to contend for a super bowl for at least three years.
Imo they shouldn’t have reached for Ponder last year. They should’ve gone for OL of DB last year, but now they you spent the first pick pick last year on Pnder…you just can’t take another QB this year. Take the the best Oline on the board PLEASE.
Can we draft a new coach?
All the great players on the planet won’t get you a SB win unless the coaches know how to develop talent, how to get guys to buy in, how to run an offense and defense, how to build new ideas, how to adjust schemes, and how to manage gametime.
Will Frazier ever be able to compete at the highest level?
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 5:23 PM CST reply actions
Ponder looks good, but there's no guarantees, not for Luck and not for Ponder
Your point, Chris, about the Vikings having a LOT of other serious needs to fill, are well taken.
However, Luck is SAID to be a once-in-a-decade QB talent, the kind of guy who brings Peyton Manning level talent to the table. The kind of guy that you build an entire team around for the next 17 years.
If he’s all that, and falls to the Vikings, then the Vikings would be extremely short-sighted to let him get away.
Yes, I know we have Ponder. Ponder’s clearly got some talent, but he’s never been considered in the same caliber as Luck. Can the Vikings build a successful team around Ponder? If he turn out to be at least an average QB, then absolutely they can. They might even win a Super Bowl with an average QB, assuming the rest of the team is stellar enough to prop Ponder up. But I wouldn’t bet on it. Not after 51 years of waiting.
No matter who the Vikings draft, they’re not going to be Super Bowl challengers next year. Ain’t going to happen. They might pull an 8-8 if they make good choices, but that’s about it. A long shot at getting into a WC slot so they can get their asses beat in the playoffs by teams that are more ready, more seasoned. We’re looking at a 2-3 year rebuild, whether we want to admit it or not.
This is a rebuild draft. The Vikings have serious needs. O-line, WR, DB/S, DT, LB, in that order (not counting coaches), IMO. Luck throws a monkey wrench into it, because a talent like his WILL NOT COME OUR WAY AGAIN, if he comes this time around at all, by no means assured. As far the Vikings are concerned, Luck is a once in 50 years opportunity.
If Luck truly assessed as that once-in-a-decade talent, AND is on the board, take him. Trade Ponder, or Webb. And hope for the best.
If Luck is gone, proceed with the OL/WR/DB/DT/LB protocol. Grab the best who’s available at positions of need.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
by DCPurple on Dec 19, 2011 5:50 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
And you don't rebuild
By stockpiling first rounders at one position. Especially not QB.
Can't you see
The part where Ponder or Webb are traded. Everyone saying the draft is full of QBs this year lets take a look at the teams that need a QB and who’s out there.
For sake of argument I’ll give the Vikings 1st pick since that is what this thread is all about.
Luck, Barkley, RGIII, Jones being first round QBs, I’d say Ponder is probably rated higher than only Jones right now for the sake of argument.
Lets say the Vikings take Luck. That only leaves 2 QBs that rate out possibly better than Ponder and Ponder has a year experience almost.
Say Washington and Cleveland take Barkley and RGIII. This leaves Miami, Seattle, and outside shots of Denver, Kansas City, Colts, Jacksonville all looking to upgrade the QB position. If any of these teams think Ponder has shown enough to be better than what they have at starting QB I would think there is a solid market for his services. Remember it only takes one team and with that many needing an upgrade there could be a bidding war for his services.
For all those that think Ponder is only worth a 2nd or 3rd round pick at best I ask you this question. If your starting QB is worth so little why wouldn’t you take Luck, who has projected to be the best QB to come out in the last 20 years when QB is the most important position on the team?
Another reason to take Luck (if possible). Lets look at our own division. Rogers is in the top 5 of the entire league. Stafford and Culter fall somewhere in the upper half and while I think Ponder could pass Cutler I think he’ll still be at best the 3rd best QB in our division.
Taking Luck COULD change all that IF he projects out he could become a top 5 QB in the league. IMO you can’t pass on this.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 7:28 AM CST up reply actions
No team is going to give a high draft pick fro Ponder
How can you not see that? If he is sooo good her merits a top 10 pick, then he is good enough to lead this team. I would take Ponder/Kalil over Luck/Johnson anyday. The reason Luck does do well in college is because he has one of the best O-lines that college football has seen in a long time. They have two players who could go in the top 10, easily the top 15 next year in Martin and DeCastro.
And if you think so little of Ponders value
I can’t see why you wouldn’t want an upgrade
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
Who does though? I do not think he will be a great QB, but he will be average at least.
How do you know it is an upgrade though. Luck could very easily do just as bad if not worse with this team as he is less mobile than ponder is.
WOW Well it was said
The Dolphins were planning on taking Ponder at 15 last year if he was there so I guess they might just have an interest still.
You treat Ponders value like he has played like shit this year but think an upgrade on the line will fix all that. I say he has played solid considering the o-line so his value should be higher.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
The Dolphins never said that though. anonymous sources are almost always fabricated.
Also, he he has played solid why get rid of him? luck and our shitty O-line will not win us any more games. We need to do what SF has been doing. thats keep your QB no matter how pedestrian he seems and build your O and D lines through the draft. Then you will be competitive.
Christopher, many people have explained the reasons why taking Luck could be a good thing....
you unfortunately chose not to listen to the reasons why and keep going back to this argument that we shouldn’t be dumping off Ponder.
Other teams are high enough on Luck’s ability that they are willing to deal for him without needing to see him take an NFL snap, therefore if the Vikings for some odd reason under the sun end up getting the 1st pick in the draft then they need to seriously explore the option of picking Luck and having a deal in place to send him to another team.
The only thing I find ridiculous is the idea to just forget about looking at all the options that could come along with this scenario. The possibility is there to deal a top prospect for a player and a draft pick later in the 1st round, do you just overlook the possibilities, I don’t think so.
Who said anything about just ignoring Luck?
If we’re the first pick, we make the Phins/Browns/Indy/whoever pay out the ass to trade up and take him.
Why would we.. select him, just to trade him?
Curse you, NBA, and you’re stupid draft strategies!
No, really, we’d just end up trading the pick, not the player.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:54 PM CST up reply actions
Missing the point. See Eli Manning and the Charger's trade on how to get the most value. You gain more leverage and value by picking the player instead of just shopping the pick.
by CanadianViking on Dec 20, 2011 1:54 AM CST up reply actions
I sort of thought the Chargers picked Eli just to...
…force him to have his picture taken with the Chargers jersey after the pick. I recall Archie Manning saying that his son would never play for the Chargers, because the Chargers sucked as an organization. Eli got his way ultimately, but the Chargers were able to stick him in the eye in the process. I bet that picture still hangs somewhere in the recesses of the Chargers front office. (Eli looked like it was difficult for him to smile during the photo-taking process).
You’re probably right though. That’s a lot of effort to go to just to get a priceless photo op.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I don't know about that
As they had the deal in place before the draft, I’m not sure why there is more value in trading the player instead of the pick. They basically traded the pick, although maybe there was a contingency in the deal to protect them if the Giants could get Rivers.
Of course, getting Rivers when you have Brees is one of the dumber decisions that an organization has ever made. Well, a non-Vikings organization anyway.
Brees had shoulder surgery
No one knew if he would be able to play again, at least not how well anyway. San Diego definitely made the right choice in getting Rivers. It is almost the same situation in Indy right now with Manning hurt and the opp to draft Luck. Are you saying it will be dumb if Indy takes Luck #1 overall?
Well, that sums it up then
If we can’t agree that San Diego made an obvious mistake in playing for slight upgrade over their capable and young QB, there isn’t much point in having this discussion. San Diego failed to accurately evaluate Brees’s ability to be among the best QBs in the league, and failed in overestimating how much better Rivers would make them (in hindsight, probably no better, but maybe even worse).
And it’s not at all the same situation as Indy. Manning is 36.
Let me make it really simple
Manning is 36. He just had a spinal fusion surgery on his neck (that literally means joining the bones together in his neck). Whether he plays again or not, he’s within a few years of retirement, and the Colt will need to replace him.
San Diego drafted Brees in 2001. In 2004 he lead them to a 12-4 record and went to the Pro Bowl. That’s his third year in the league, and that’s AFTER San Diego acquired Rivers in the 2004 draft.
His shoulder surgery was after that, in 2005. I don’t recall that anyone thought it was career ending, but it doesn’t really matter. The situation is not comparable to Indy picking the successor to Manning.
It is, however, highly comparable
To our situation. San Diego didn’t want to wait for Brees to develop, and underestimated his abilities, so they went out and got another QB at the top of the draft.
In hindsight, they were clearly wrong.
He had 5 years, and yet they started him anyway with Rivers on the bench.
He sat his first year, then he had 2 mediocre years and they drafted Rivers.
Then he shredded his shoulder and they did not know if he would play again. Then they offered him like $50 million dollars, and Brees turned it down to go look elsewhere for a job. It’s a freaky scenerio.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Only your first sentence is really relevant
And you’re right. He had 2 mediocre years and then they drafted Rivers.
But your statement was not correct. they did wait for him to develop.
They just had a weird situation after his rookie deal was up.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
They did not wait long enough for him to develop
Happy? They didn’t let Brees reach his full potential before deciding to go another way.
In part that’s because he was fighting with Flutie for time, again, be the organization never had any confidence in him.
And no, it wasn’t just a weird situation. They picked Rivers (technically traded Manning for him) before anything weird happened.
they waited 3 years and decided he might not pan out.
also, the weird situation is that his rookie deal ended when he got completely injured. That makes for a wierd situation.
They had a weird situation after his rookie deal was up.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
In fact
no one really thought his injury was career ending. Bree’s left San Diego as a FA, he wasn’t cut. The Vikings were in one of the teams trying to sign him (sigh). SD let Bree’s go only because they had Rivers
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 9:37 PM CST up reply actions
It was pretty iffy. He required a couple of surgeries for his
shoulder and rotator cuff damage.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Miami thought it was risky
so they signed Culpepper instead…wait that doesn’t help my point at all…damn
They essentially called the Giant's bluff that they wouldn't take Eli and ended up with more picks instead of just taking the guy they wanted.
In the Vikings situation it’d be taking Luck and then trading with Indy for Kalil and picks. Just kinda forces the other teams hand when you know they’re going to trade with you. Leverage.
by CanadianViking on Dec 20, 2011 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
Hey you still in the Saints fantasy league?
You bringing it home this year? At least we can win something off them!
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Yup, I'm in the semi-final this week.
AD’s back and CJ Spiller is actually doing pretty good since Forte went down. Was going to gloat a bit in one of the Saints threads but I was kinda expecting a lot of the crapfest we saw last week. By the way I never got around to replying to your trade offer because the deadline had already passed. Looking forward to pissing off a few Saints fans for Christmas with 2 more wins : )
by CanadianViking on Dec 21, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
Here's a scenario to help some of you understand it
Hypothetically speaking of course:
Vikings pick #1 in the draft, they take Luck but have a deal in place with say Indy who picks at 2 or 3. The deal in place has Indy pick up Kalil only to trade him to the Vikes along with another draft pick or say a WR, DB to send Luck to Indy.
This could involve another team other than Indy, like St. Louis, etc.
Now do the Vikes just say no to something like that if they can work the deal? Hell NO!!, because they would be getting a player to fill a position that needs to be filled anf something extra.
Exactly who has said we shouldn't consider this?
No one I’ve seen.
I still think we trade the pick to the Cards for Larry Fitz and their 1st
That would rock. They’ll totally go for that, right? Riiight?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
Absolutely not
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE
I’m not knocking Ponder. I think he could be a very good QB. Quarterback is considered to be the most important position on the team. I think the big question is do the Vikings go for the quick fix, the immediate gratification, or do they delay a year and be even better. While Ponder will probably be a very good QB , he was projected as a third rounder. Luck is being billed as a once in a decade player at the most important position. If on a scale of one to ten, Ponder is a 9.1 and Luck is a 9.9, do you delay building for a year?? The Vikings could probably still find a pretty good tackle in the second. The Vikings could keep the other quarterbacks for a year to make sure Luck is what they thought he was, then trade Ponder. I agree that there is holes all over that need to ne addressed, but the question is immediate gratification verses a once in a decade player at QB. Those discussion is probably moot anyway because Indianapolis will more than likely receive the top pick. Matt Kahlil will make a nice consolation prize.
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 6:22 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Here's the thing
The instant gratification play is picking the shiny, highly rated new toy that you don’t need.
The building for the long term play is adding talent across the team, especially if you can trade down for more picks.
The assertion that ignoring your needs for a luxury is the wise move is silly.
Also, why would you think where Ponder was allegedly projected has any relevance now?
LONG TERM??
I agree that a team needs to be solid across the board, but how is drafting a “once in a decade player” detrimental to long term success?? It just delays addressing other needs for a year. The Vikings still have a high second and third draft pick. The Vikings can let Ponder and Luck compete for a year, then trade the loser. The point is, if Luck is as good as advertised, is the "once in a decade "player, they have to take him. Short term it will suck. Long term, this could be awesome. Everyone acts like the Vikings only have one draft pick this year. The argument is an elite player or a very good player at the most important position. Start to improve now, or be really good in the future.
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 7:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
No one knows
You might not know this yet so I’ll fill you in on a little secret us insiders have, Luck hasn’t taken a single NFL snap. Don’t tell anyone.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
REREAD MY POST
That’s why I suggested keeping both Ponder and Luck for a year and trading the loser. Is the argument about immediately addressing picks or how good is Luck??
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 7:49 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's addressing Luck
It’s fine talking about taking Luck but I can’t understand how people are so confident that he’s a sure-fire elite player. Reading some of the posts here and elsewhere you would swear the guy is already in the HOF. To assume because he goes to Stanford and has good skills he will be the next Elway is a huge leap of faith. After 8 games people are giving up on Ponder as a bust(not necessarily you) but these same people are swearing by Luck as an elite NFL player after 0 games.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Ugh.
What a wasted year that would be. How are you supposed to know who the ‘loser’ is? Only one of them is taking snaps at a time.
Or would we give each a half, for the whole season, and then judge them at the end? Wait for one of them to get injured and compare him to the other when he fills in?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
To further address your point
by drafting Luck we essentially say we are giving up on Ponder If we draft Luck and Ponder beats him out, we are conceding he didn’t deserve the #1 pick. Either way we lose out on a #1 pick as no one would give up their #1 for the loser.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I agree with this
But, after giving it some thought, if Luck is better, then we have gained a better QB. It won’t help us much next year though, and Luck will likely end up getting killed behind the not-as-good-as-it-could-have-been O-line.
What would suck.. is if we take Luck.. and he turns out not to be better. Wouldn’t that be hilarious?
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:00 PM CST up reply actions
that would be the definition of irony
and the only team capable of pulling that off would of course be the Vikings.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Having two 1st round picks compete would not be good anyway
As QB’s usually take years to develop, it will just delay the strength of the QB position by a year and just confuse the whole team. The coach has no strength when he waffles like that, which, of course, describes how Frazier is still just throwing things up against the wall and hoping they stick.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
But I don’t think Frazier is dumb enough to do that. I think he’ll stick by Ponder. He’s not a stupid man. Maybe not a good coach (only time will tell. I hope this year is the team sucking and not him being incompetent because I really want to like him) but he’s not stupid.
HOW GOOD IS LUCK??
Maybe that is the bigger question. I don’t know how good Luck will be, but the “experts” project him to be one of the elite QB ‘s. I’m not knocking Ponder. I think he could be a very good QB. The argument is if Luck is the “once in a decade player”, do you ignore it and build for now, or do you delay immediate gratification for a year, and go for something really special. The Vikings still have a high second and third round picks to begin to address other needs.
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 7:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The question is
Will the players they need to fill those other needs still be there in the 2nd and 3rd rounds? Are we picking up an Elite QB at the expense of a couple of Elite players at other positions?
THE QUESTION IS
Are you saying there is no good players after round one??
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 7:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I WOULD RATHER HAVE ELITE PLAYERS THAN GOOD PLAYERS...
So would I. Especially at the quarterback position.
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 8:01 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
How do you know Ponder can't be elite?
or that Luck will be elite?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Have you read my posts??
I’ve already stated that I don’t know who will be better. I’m saying that if Luck is, what he is projected to be, they have to take him. Luck is projected as a once in a decade quarterback. Draft him, let him compete with Ponder for a year. Is this about other players who could bolster the team, or do you think that Luck will be a bust? If he could be that special once in a decade player, you draft him.
by vking1 on Dec 19, 2011 8:48 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I saw what you wrote. It was pretty clear and I'd agree with that.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I read your posts you said "I WOULD RATHER HAVE ELITE PLAYERS THAN GOOD PLAYERS."
You are assuming Luck is/will be an elite player. Why would we take such a leap of faith if Ponder can be a very good player (your words)? Wouldn’t we be better served building a strong team rather than throwing all our eggs into one position? If Luck does struggles do we look at another QB the following year and so on? This team has so many holes and QB is far down that list.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
.. Yes. Definitely.
On a team like this.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
They're alot more difficult to find
and given our recent draft-history.. we don’t find them.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
It not building for now
Its just building. There is no time period that is best served by blowing a high first road pick on a backup QB.
"Once in a decade player"
Of the the teams that will get the chance at Luck by draft or trade who has the team to make him that “once in a decade player” or gets him killed. Does the team make him or break him?
Because its a silly gamble
That you don’t need to make.
And delaying a year hurts a lot.
One thing I don't see mentioned at all
Are the opportunity costs of drafting Luck and i’m curious to see what Luck supports say. If we get the first pick of the draft. We have 3 options:
1. Draft Luck
2. Listen to offers and trade down for extra picks
3. Ignore Luck and trade offers and draft someone else.
Now, nobody in their right mind would do option 3. At least I hope not. I vote option 2 myself, because we need a lot of help in a lot of places.
Getting to option 1 and my point, we could draft Luck but I don’t feel that’s considering what we’re giving up in the process. Drafting Luck at #1 precludes us from other players we need. Getting to my point: Is Luck worth giving up (just the names Chris listed in the article) Kalil, Claiborne, and Blackmon as well as basically wasting our first round pick last year drafting Ponder?
If we trade back, getting 2 of the 3 (i’d go Kalil and Claiborne personally) isn’t out of the realm of possibilities, plus we wouldn’t have effectively wasted picking Ponder.
Is Luck that good?
No way we get 2 of the 3.
Kalil and Claiborne will be gone in the top 5, and the only team that even has two 1st round picks is Cleveland, who picks 9 and 19.
To clarify... Cleveland has the highest 2 picks in round 1.
I think Cincy also has 2, and New England probably does too, but at 9 and 19 Cleveland would be the best combo for potential trade.
At this point, I have decided..
I don’t want the Vikings to have the #1 pick. Let Indy deal with the Luck headache. I want him off the board by the time we select.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Yes
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:09 PM CST up reply actions
That's the cowardly option
If we get the #1 pick, we do our homework and either take Luck or trade him for a bonanza. Both have more potential then just having the #2 pick.
by Are we cursed? on Dec 19, 2011 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
No, I just fear more explosive discussions like this would emerge
They’re worse than Webb vs Ponder! Oh the humanity!
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
The real question should be Webb or Luck.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
If that's the question
The answer is Luck. Luck, Luck, Luck. A thousand times Luck.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Wel, as the evidence shows,
Luck is the superior receiver. So Webb will have a heck of a target to throw to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89wGMqET3AM
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
got that right, hhhmph.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 12:08 AM CST up reply actions
i say
If we end up with #1 we talk to the Colts… Make them our friends tell them
Hey we are drafting luck, but if you guys want him he’s yours if you draft the kahlil feller (im sure I misspelled it) and give us garcon… Otherwise we’ll sell to the highest bidder
by Lunchpail on Dec 19, 2011 9:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
i meant draft and trade him to us.... not just draft him
by Lunchpail on Dec 19, 2011 9:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
People don't do that in the NFL
they just trade picks.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
**Meaning, not the people picked, but the pick position+extra picks
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
There'd better be at least another 1st rounder coming our way in that deal
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
"Wasting our first round pick last year"?
It’s not a waste if we can still trade Ponder. We might not get a top 12 pick (but maybe we could), but you can’t call him a waste if he still has value.
by Are we cursed? on Dec 19, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
We used a first on him
we would get a second or third. That would be like me trading my dollar for your quarter.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:34 PM CST up reply actions
That might be true now...
but backup QB’s have a way of retaining their value or even increasing their value as time goes on. Remember Matt Schaub. We could keep him for a year or two and everyone will remember his potential and like the fact that he has been in the league for a couple of years, and forget the interceptions.
by Are we cursed? on Dec 19, 2011 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah,
but he’d never see the field because Peyton Mann- I mean, Luck never misses games.
Sarcasm
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
Schaub was traded for a 2nd round selection
Even with that, we’d have ‘lost’ value on Ponder.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, Schaub was traded for 2 second round picks and...
a trade up from pick #10 overall to pick #8. And, Schaub was merely a third round pick with two career starts and as many picks as TDs. Schaub went up in value despite not playing that much and with mediocre stats.
by Are we cursed? on Dec 19, 2011 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, yes...
the stakes are very high and the outcome is very uncertain. But one thing is true, IMO, and that is that young QBs with potential have trade value. That means Ponder.
by Are we cursed? on Dec 19, 2011 10:30 PM CST up reply actions
( see "kevin kolb" for further support of this statement )
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I have no idea what this means! I was trying to make a french fry joke.
But this conversation is causing my eyes to bug out!
♫Hello Mr. Krinkle
How are you today?
Seems the rumors are about your team might move away
Now, me I’m sentimental
But I’m not one to cry
Say there Mr. Krinkle let’s cruise the Bastard boat
Damn then sonsabitches with their gill-nets set afloat
I flip on my tele and I watch the waters die
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/p/primus-lyrics/mr.-krinkle-lyrics.html ]
C’mon Mr. Krinkle tell me why
Hey ho Mr. Krinkle have you heard the brand new sound
It’s a cross between Jimi Hendrix
Bocephus, Cher and James Brown
It’s called “Heavy Hometown”
New Wave, cold-filtered, low-calorie dry
C’mon Mr. Krinkle tell me why♫
Excellent conversation though.
Wierd song and video, but that was pretty cool.
I never heard that before. Not really a Primus guy….til now!
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Patients
Are we really judging a rookie after only eight games, shouldn’t he at least get next year before we start to talk about this that and whatever Ponder behind a better offensive line could easily develop into an Aaron Rodgers kind of Qb
by Madden Allstar on Dec 19, 2011 9:04 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I think you mean "Patience". But drafting Luck, wow.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Let's not get crazy here.
I don’t think Ponder could turn into an Aaron Rodgers. He’s definitely more of a Mark Sanchez atm.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 19, 2011 10:16 PM CST up reply actions
To quote the great American poet Jay-Z, “we got 99 problems but a QB ain’t one”. If we can get the next Ron Yary, we’d be stupid not to. He even made Gary Cuozzo and Bob Lee better.
by Lee Meitrodt on Dec 19, 2011 9:11 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I don't care what the "scouts" say...
No mention if Luck would fit with the Viking’s coaches or offensive system, or even the NFL.
Stanford has set up a system that has 350-400 plays in it’s book, and everything they do is predicated on finding the optimum matchups out of that playbook, but that is all predicated upon the fact that he has at least two offensive linemen to play behind that will be high on the draft…
No one knows if Luck can play if his offensive line gets run over like roadkill, so he really hasn’t been tested, has he?
Throw in the fact that the Viking’s offensive scheme is a mess. Their playbook rarely looks like it is designed to take advantage of matchups and instead looks like it is designed to take advantage of the strengths of it’s players, like AP, and the other teams are locked in like lasers on shutting them down.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 9:17 PM CST reply actions
Andrew Luck will not be a Minnesota Viking.
That is my prediction. If he is come next season and not much else was done to help the rest of our team, well… me and the Vikings organization will have some major problems between us.
This hasn't been brought up,
but IF we were to become ignorant dumbasses trade Ponder to grab Luck, we’d still have to select another QB to fill Roselfel’s spot next year. We’d look like the dumbasses of the league for selecting 3 QB’s in two years and two in the first round.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 9:21 PM CST reply actions
I have said
and so has others. Right now you could put in a proven QB but with absolutely no time back there.. nothing good is going to happen. Yeah I watched all the games and the QBs have had little to no time. In the DRAFT it starts up front with the OLINE. I’ll say it again the best defense is a good offense that keeps the other offense on the sidelines resting our defense. And I to agree that the vikes need an actual GM to oversee all decisions. Tired of all talk of trade Ponder, get a stud wr (which we need but can get in FA), get dbacks. Vikes need OLINE HELP nuff said. If they don’t go oline I will probably go back to my old team that I rooted for in early high school 30 some yrs ago which was the SD Chargers, the Dan Fouts era, Winslow, Muncie, I’m sure that I am not alone in being so frustrated….
we cannot pass on luck, plain and simple
excellent arguments from chris and others, but when stepping back…
paul allen, common, barreiro, superstar, and sludge all favored drafting luck if we have the top pick.
we can make any and all of the excuses in the world, bad o-line, wrs i get that. but, percy and ap are superstar pro bowlers, toby is very solid as well. randolf is a money rookie te. fact is, with all those studs ponder is seriuously regressing.
further what they sold as his strenghts are actaully question marks. for example, “good decision making” (see throw back over the middle in detroit game), “accuracy” (see any of the highligts from last week), etc…
by los vikingos on Dec 19, 2011 10:12 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions 1 recs
(sorry, brain fart, meant rudolph)...
my bad
by los vikingos on Dec 19, 2011 10:15 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
So I guess the Oline is good enough for Luck ?
or are there a bunch of Franchise-Linemen that are ready to start in the 2nd and 3rd round ?
This years #1 overall is rumored to be worth three 1’st rounders and possibly more.
The vikings could solidify a few positions for many years to come with all those picks….They would be fools to not trade.
The Vikings are not a QB away from winning the SB…
They’re more like 3yrs and 15 draft picks away from winning the SB.
Trade for more picks!
Where did you hear its rumored to be worth 3 1st rounders?
Holy shit, I would take that in a heart beat.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
I don't have a link :
I heard it awhile ago on either NFLN or ESPN.
Sounds a bit extreme, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened.
The Raiders gave up two 1st rounders for an aged C.Palmer…..without Al Davis :)
The Bears gave up two 1st rounders and K.Ortin for Cutler.
They may not get three 1st rounders exactly, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they get two 1st rounders and a 3rd or better…… People are friggen nuts about this kid :)
ESPN
has been humping the 3 first rounders for Luck for several weeks now. I have to listen to ESPN at work all day so that is where it is coming from and they have been saying it every day for quite a while.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
Shiiiiit son
I would take that. Especially from a team like the Browns. Some team that’s more than one draft away from being good, so we can get the max value out of those picks.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, now that I've thought about it..
I bet ESPN didn’t actually come up with that 3 1st’s idea. I bet you the Colts floated them what they’d be asking for that #1 selection, sort of as a feeler for how other teams would react/to give them time to set up a proper package.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
Harvin-not a number 1 receiver, AP-did not play the majority of Ponder's starts, Rudolph-a rookie TE struggling to gain separation, Toby-average to below average starting RB
We listed 4 guys, what about the others?
Johnson-Terrible LT
Hutch-aging RG struggling inconsistent at best
Sullivan- average to above average C
Herrerra- Injury prone
Loadholt-Terrible pass protection
Shancoe- disappears at times.
WR’s- struggle to get separation
Even your boy Luck would struggle with this team
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
No, it begins and ends with an O-line...
Look where Duante Culpepper got us with a solid O-line….
I still say you put Rodgers, Brees, Brady, a healthy Manning, even Steve young behind this O-line, and they’d be mediocre at best.
case in point, look at the Packers last weekend—down to their 2nd and 3rd string tackles due to injury, and Rodgers has no time, get sacked 4 times, under 50% completion with ~230 yards and only 1 TD…..
Look at the “dream team” Philly— Vick is getting NO protection from his O-line, and huh, they’ll be lucky to end at .500….
Put Luck behind this O-line with tackles that can’t pass protect, and he won’t look any better than Ponder or Gabbert.
by michiganpat on Dec 20, 2011 8:50 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Draft Luck
Its seems crazy since the Vikes already have 2 promising young QBs, But you have to get the best value for your #1 pick. And that’s picking Luck if he is as advertised. There is no way the vikes don’t seriously consider it if they end up #1. When you lack talent and leaders you go BPA throughout the draft.
Vikes haven’t been drafting well anyways. I would hate for them to go all Musgrave on the draft and start getting too cute. Trading the first pick for a bunch of later round picks that don’t end up making the team anyway.
by dirtyplay on Dec 19, 2011 10:26 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
That's just backward
When you ack talent you have to consider needs. When your already good, bpa.
My hunch
John Elway goes all Mike Ditka on everybody and trades his entire draft for Luck
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
No he won't
Revenge4Webb says Elway is afraid of Luck because Luck is better than him.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I know this much
Elway is not a Tebow fan
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I would agree with that statement.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
read more closely, little one.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 12:13 AM CST up reply actions
did I missquote you, big one?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
for the love of everything holy...
talk about hitting a nerve. 400+ messages in less than 9 hours??
at least fans are passionate about something… even if half of them are illogical.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I was going to ask what the record for posts was in a non-game thread
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I knew this was going to happen
the second I saw this article drop. I was going to write first and then something stupid and illogical, but Landonio® beat me! Whippersnappers!
Makes me think half of these commenters are on the Luck media team
Shill, shill, shill.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 19, 2011 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
Between this and the Saints game recap thread
There are 937 comments including this one at the time of posting on the subject of drafting Andrew Luck. I think that’s a record for a single subject, at least.
I'm guessing the comments that came after cutting Randy Moss probably make those 937 comments seem puny in comparison.
Angelo: Right….so anyways Jay, I’m sure you understand that we needed to make this move and I wanna wish you the best of luck.
Cutler: (Swoops bangs out of eyes by throwing his head back) Whatever, I don’t need this team or you.
/Leaves in a huff
//Writes bad poetry on his blog
Grossman: What the fuck is Wilford Brimley’s problem?
That's because Andrew Luck is the shizzle.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
have to disagree with some peoples reasoning of not draft luck, if we have the chance
the thing about Andrew Luck that people love, is his potential. He has way more potential then Ponder will ever have. Now, could Andrew Luck be a bust? yeah, he could. However, what if we don’t draft him and he turns out to be this amazing QB an Ponder is nothing more then an average QB? Like I’ve said in an earlier post. Andrew Lucks has all the physical/mental tools, and the NFL readiness to be a possible all time great QB. If we have the chance to draft Luck in this draft, We have got to take it. Now sure, some may see it as the Vikings “wasting another draft pick on a QB” but with a guy like Luck, who has all the makings to be all time great. I say it’s a risk worth taking. then we have the two first round draft picks fight it out for the Starting position in training camp/preseason. Competition drives people to play at their best.
Why so many words?
“omg luck rulz” would have sufficed.
good grief, where's my popcorn??
i want to say so much, but am refraining… i can’t get caught up in this ridiculousness for fear i’ll just get too frustrated…
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Alright, this has become official...
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 11:15 PM CST reply actions
Guys, it won't matter.
This time next year the world will cease to exist. How valuable will your precious Luck be to you then?
by SirGrizzly on Dec 19, 2011 11:16 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
If given a chance, Joe Webb would save the day!!
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
We've got to get him out there
He’s too athletic not to save the day.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 19, 2011 11:19 PM CST up reply actions
Not even the almighty Joe Webb
is athletic enough to save the world from the coming footballpocalypse when Andrew Luck steps onto that field. He is going to destroy the world with his super-duper magic football throwing, world exploding right arm.
Andrew Luck is what the Mayans predicted. He will be the end of all things.
I know I shouldn't say this, but I am
Why should Webb give a rats behind about this franchise, that turned it’s back on him being the starting QB; when he showed much promise in the last 3 games of 2010? I don’t see him staying with the Vikings after his contract is finished.
He's probably not staying
But I’m not sure why he should have any hostility toward an organization that let him play QB after his draft expectations were at WR. He’s had nothing but good fortune by getting to play where he wants and getting to do a lot more there than anyone would have thought when he came into the league.
But when his contract is up (not sure when that is), he will look for a place where he has a shot to start. That could be here if Ponder struggles, but is probably elsewhere.
We can't pull a WR off the Pack practice squad
And one of our QBs is going to be heading for the door. Pathetic when you really sit and think about it.
Webb was a 6th round pick!
I can almost guarantee that Webb is absolutely thrilled to be in the position that he is in right now….he’s certainly in no position to be demanding anything that’s for sure.
Webb will probably will move on to another team when his contract here is finished, but that doesn’t exactly mean he has hard feelings towards the Vikings….
If it wasn’t for the Vikings, he probably wouldn’t have been drafted at all.
You know what would make that perfect..
If the Vikes were, miraculously, closing in on 16-0, tearing apart the league, totally destined for a SB win.. and the world ends.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure that's how
The Mayans predicted it.
The world would probably end
BECAUSE the Vikings were closing in on 16-0, tearing apart the league, and totally destined for an SB win.
We are not allowed to be happy. The universe will make sure of that with it’s own self-sacrifice.
But the Universe is now happy because of yer grammatical faux pas
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 6:20 PM CST up reply actions
Late breaking grammar police:
If you are saying “SB” (“ess-bee”), than it IS “an”. If you’re saying “Superbowl”, then it’s “a”.
Thenk you, thenk you verra much.
Wow. What a thread.
You know what’s gonna happen is you guys are gonna beat both the Sex Cannon and da Beers and end up drafting fourth or fifth, and all you’ll have to show for this thread are bleeding eyeballs ;>)
No way
This secondary is so awful Tim Tebow was murdering them. Sexy Rexy won’t have any issue tearing us apart. And I don’t think Caleb Hanie will either.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
so if we have number 1 pick
we shouldnt take luck ? so then the vikes could be like lets say drafting sam bouie ahead of michael jordan ? if you trade away the pick and he wins it all in 5 years will you arrange for a crow eating skype view mr gates? put some weight to your story . if we are the number 1 pick we have to take luck . draft a lt in second round then but to pass or trade down for more picks then watch the young man become a superstar would then replace the hercshall walker deal as the worst thing ever in vikings history.
equally possible
What if we draft Luck and trade Ponder….and then Ponder goes on to win the SB while Luck is a bust. That would be eating crow.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Not "equally" possible I'm afraid.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Why not?
So it’s possible and ok to make one huge leap of faith and say Luck is the Michael Jordan of the league already but at the same time we can’t make a leap of faith and say Luck could possibly be a bust? Sounds like that double standard you guys have been preaching about.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
I will speak for me and not for "you guys"
I don’t think it’s a “huge leap of faith” to think that the most highly touted college QB in the last 20 years will have a better chance of leading his team to the Superbowl than a QB who was drafted behind several others and generally viewed to be a “reach” even then. All other things being equal, yeah, Luck is likely to be better… perhaps even a lot better and that will make his team better. You took my statement of “not equally ‘possible’ I’m afraid” and turned it into hysterics about “huge leaps of faith and saying that Luck is the Michael Jordan of the league already” and “can’t make a leap of faith and say Luck could possibly be a bust?” And then added the double standard thing to top it off.
Given the choice between the two QBs, I don’t think there’s a GM in the league who would take Ponder over Luck – let alone sixteen that would.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
by kcskol on Dec 20, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Read the original post
How is it not a leap of faith to assume an unproven talent is going to come into the league and win Superbowls? Is he good/great in college? Yes. Is he good/great in the NFL? Who knows. To automatically crown him as a Super Bowl winner, that is a huge leap of faith when only 27 QBs have ever won one in the first place.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
It's not a "leap of faith"
It’s playing the odds. This guy is this highly touted by NFL scouts for a reason. Yes, it is possible that he will fail in the NFL. It is not likely that he’ll fail however. It is more likely that he’ll be a franchise QB for years to come.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
It's most likely
That he’ll be like Carson Palmer. A very talented and highly capable QB who never really accomplishes anything.
Because that’s what most very talented and highly capable QBs do. Especially if they have no supporting talent.
Best prospect in 20 years...
…is a category all its own.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Serious question then
Do you honestly think it’s possible to compare prospects with any kind of accuracy across time, to say nothing of competition, system, landing spot, etc?
This question is not to me, but
Of course it’s not possible. Nobody said “best prospect in 20 years” is based on an analysis of data. It’s based on the same thing that all draft picks come down to when it’s pickin’ time: gut instinct.
Okay then
But a lot of people are asserting “best prospect in 20 years” or “best since Elway” or “once in a generation prospect” as if these are objective facts that if they just get repeated enough, will carry the day in this argument.
By the way, what you said earlier was exactly right. The question for the FO is whether they think Ponder can get the job done. If the answer is no, then fine, draft Luck.
I just don’t know how you anyone can say that the answer is clearly no at this point.
There are many factors
Gut instinct, raw data, history, wins, passion for the game, physical ability, and then there is hype.
People like me object to the hype. For instance, you can hear a million times that breakfast is the most important meal of the day.
Then you find out that saying was invented by a guy working for the Pork Producers of America who wanted people to eat more pork.
At the time it had nothing to do whether it was better for you. You were just being fed a line…
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
except there is one of those in every draft
most of them don’t turn out that way even if they are very good at the next level.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
A couple of trade options KEEPING PONDER
If Luck is indeed the best thing since sliced bread and the Vikings feel they have their QBOTF in Ponder. How about either of these trades if said team falls for it I mean is willing.
Scenario 1. Trade the #1 pick to the Dolphins for Jake Long and their 2nd rounder this year and their 1st rounder next year.
Scenario 2. Trade the #1 pick to the Browns for Joe Thomas and the pick they received from Atlanta and their 2nd round pick this year.
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 7:40 AM CST reply actions
How about we trade the Luck pick
to the Browns for Joe Thomas, and their #4 selection. I don’t want that stupid #20-28 one. We get Joe Thomas and then Martin and BAM! That O-line is suddenly sexy in one season.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
This is sort of a funny argument and honestly can be summed up in an easy way
Do we take BPA or do we fill for need? Many teams go BPA no matter what, actually we did. We had Chester Taylor but we still picked up AD even though we needed receivers, Secondary etc… But we picked up AD and I don’t think anyone here is regretting that. No, if Luck is the BPA at that point in the pick I believe we have to pick him.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
A far as WR goes....
Charch listed 13 damn good free-agent WR’s while filling in for Common yesterday on KFAN. No need to waste a top pick on a WR either. Plenty of good options will be available in free agency after the season.
This draft needs OLine, Safety, Cornerbacks badly
The trick is getting the brainfarts to actually go sign a couple of those free agents.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
If the Vikings have the number 1 pick then who is better than Luck?
I doubt they get the number one pick though. But if they do then the best player is going to be Luck. He is the real deal. All this talk about him not doing anything in the NFL and the media crowning his arse is true but irrelevant to the draft. He has all the symptoms of a franchise QB. Size, smarts, drop back passer, toughness, adequate arm, and the ability to come back after making a mistake. He runs a pro style offense (the same one the 49ers are running) and he makes his own changes to play calls at the line of scrimmage. Name another QB in college doing that this year or last year or the year before, etc.
The simple fact is that he is that good and all these NFL scouts (not fans) are drooling for a reason. They have nothing to gain by heaping praise on this young man. Any talk of him not being all that is silly and childish. He could bust for sure but I doubt it and if he did I would put it on his coaches.
So, if the Vikings had the number 1 pick and could NOT trade down then I think their hand is forced. Besides, Ponder has already gotten hurt this year and missed a game and I expect he will get hurt again too. It was something that happened to him often enough in college to be a concern and there is really no reason to expect that to change in the NFL.
The Vikings will need two QBs anyway. As many have posted it will become a position of strength and the Vikings could conceivably trade a QB later for a nice little haul.
Even though I do not think it will happen, I would have to take Luck with that #1 pick. And I would not hesitate either. The Vikings would then have the QB position possibly being a position of strength and depth. Considering it is the MOST important position on the field, I do not see that as a bad thing.
Alas, I feel this whole conversation/debate is just an exercise for us frustrated Vikings fans.
by MarkSP18 on Dec 20, 2011 9:43 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
yes it's so we don't have to think of the season right now...
the PAIN!
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Jim Souhan: Are Frazier, Ponder part of Vikings' solution?
Interesting article that’s relevant to this discussion.
Ponder possesses the intelligence and athletic ability to become a good NFL quarterback, but he has regressed the past two weeks, looking frazzled and throwing inaccurately while trying to move a flawed offense.
While discussing Ponder on Sunday afternoon, Frazier sounded more hesitant than he’s ever been, saying, cautiously: "I don’t want to measure purely on the last two weeks. I want to see what happens these next two weeks.’’
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/135837363.html
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I read that quote, but interpret it differently.
Frazier was simply keeping focus on what is ahead of him… Washington and then Chicago. Ponder will absolutely be the starter going into the off-season and next season, unless he pulls a Ricky-Bobby in one the last two games and starts running around in his tighty whites yelling that he is on fire.
*Of course this could potentially change if we somehow end up with Luck, but I don’t see that happening either.
You want to know how Luck will suck?
If you put him on THIS team, without any significant upgrades where they are truly needed. Should the Vikings make him the number one pick, that is exactly what will happen to him.
by Mel Allen on Dec 20, 2011 9:46 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
More......
keeping Ponder and improving in other areas is called “building.” Drafting Luck would be called an organization “flailing.”
A QB in history that comes to mind that found himself in just that situation was Archie Manning. He was, without question, the top QB in the nation coming out of college. What happened? He found himself mired in a perennially unsuccessful, dysfunctional organization for almost his entire career.
by Mel Allen on Dec 20, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd agree if the league ended at the end of 2012.
But as the league goes on year after year, there are plenty of opportunities to put the pieces in place around Luck or any other QB. The Vikings will have plenty of time to add the significant upgrades you refer to without needing to pass on Luck.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Maybe.....
but, that QB would have to survive before said upgrades are in place. Plus, should the existing “stars” notice that the organization seems to be flailing about, their patience might start running thin, which probably has already begun, in limited doses. Then where are we?
It is all probably academic anyway, since he won’t be available, and I hope he isn’t. I hope Indy gets him, which will at least keep him in the AFC for a while.
So while Luck struggles as we build around him
Do we start talking about the next QB we need to draft?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
by TroyW18 on Dec 20, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly......
because he will be running around, throwing picks, and leading late comebacks that come up short. Sounds like, um, oh yeah, Ponder.
However......
Ponder hasn’t survived THIS season yet. I guess we should keep our powder dry on Luck in this respect.
No.
But I expect the chatter about turning Webb into a WR will increase. That seems to be what happens when the starting rookie QB struggles.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Yea, "Ponder is struggling because Webb is not starting at wr". Totally.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
That's like 2 fallacies with one stone.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
kind of like what's going on in St. Louis?
where there’s discussion of do they take Luck if they are #1, 2 years removed trom taking Bradford #1 overall?
except
most of Bradford’s guaranteed money has already been paid….and there is discussion of do the Rams take Luck if they have the #1…
... Two #1 QBs?
I don’t think they’ll spend that much time discussing it. But, uh… hell.. if they won’t want Bradford.. I’ll take him.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 7:29 PM CST up reply actions
Sounds like you mean you would take Bradford to replace Ponder.
Well, I think I’d take Andrew Luck over Bradford.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Bradford, Luck or Webb?
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
... I meant Luck
but all 3 fit, I suppose.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Number 1 Pick is not going to happen
The colts are not going to win another game. and even if they did, our strength of schedule is higher than theirs. also if the bears lose against GB this weekend (and that is going to happen) they will be out of playoff contention and will play their final game against us without Cutler, and Forte and one of their WR (forgot his name) so there is a chance that we will pick Third on the draft, we will never have a chance of picking Luck and even if we did we should take a left tacle, a WR and a DB before a QB, regardless of who he is
OFFENSIVE LINE
Here me out before you jump to conclusions…
The best qb in the world will be destoryed without a good offensive line. Brady and the Patriots have Welker, Gronk and the rest are possesion receivers. Hernandez can possibly be considered a WR because he has deep threat skills. However, Brady has one of the best Offensive lines in the game. Manning…in Indy the OF line is built for manning to throw the ball fast to his slot WR and occasionally take a down field throw to Wayne or Harrison at the time. Brees….has a decent OFline that can give him time in the pocket to survey the field. I know I may get yelled at but take Shanchez for example as well. The Jets OLine is a pretty decent Oline that has been giving him time to survey the field…In my own opinion Schanchez is holding back the Jets offense.
A Qb can only be as good as the time he gets. How many times have we seen Brady survey the field for more than 6 sec with his feet flat on the ground standing there like a stone statue only to throw a 50 yard bomb to Welker or Moss(at the time) and now to Gronk? Dude is money because he has 5-8 seconds to survey the field.
When Brady played Dallas he was getting rushed and knocked down….His o-line was getting beat by the pass rush, not giving Brady to do what he does best.
Now take the idea and put it in the Vikings OLine….Ponder is getting 2-3 seconds before he has to dance around in pocket…get flushed out left or right. He has no opp. to look for Percy down the middle, or Jenkins down the side for a bomb. If the OLINE is not blocking Ponder gets destroyed EVERY SINGLE DOWN.
Give Ponder a chance…
1. Trade back to get 2-1st rd picks——OL and WR in the first round
2. CB
3. DL
4. WR
5. OL
6. DB
Free Agency…get Bowe from the Chefs…and Porter from Saints.
Good ideas
The mock I was just reading has up picking Kalil #2 overall and if positioning stays the same, they have us making the first pick in the second round (#33 overall) and choosing Mohammed Sanu- Wide Receiver- Rutgers Junior. They claim he’ll likely be BPA at that point but hard to tell.
http://nflmocks.com/2011/10/06/2012-nfl-mock-draft-2-rounds-2/
That mock was from Oct 6.
…when four teams were tied at 0-4.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Freakishly close.
I was mostly just pointing out that it would be unlikely that we’ll get the 1st pick of the 2nd round. Sadly that means it will be equally unlikely that we’ll get the 1st pick of the 1st round.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Do you happen to know the best site to look up this stuff.
The most updated mock site? Under B Animals concept we might be able to garner 3 of the first 33 or 34 people selected. Passing up on Kalil would be sketchy though.
I'm afraid that I don't know.
I usually just Google Mock Drafts and then read a bunch of them. However, I don’t really start that process until the off season. However, this season I’ve snuck a peek once or twice in an effort to keep my sanity.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
The one I use...
http://walterfootball.com/draftdata.php
updated daily
by VikesFanInTulsa on Dec 20, 2011 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
Hey thanks a lot. That's perfect
Word out of Eden Prairie is that Speilman, out of total frustration, has elected to let members of the Daily Norseman make all of the Vikings picks next April, so we need to start studying. I sure we can come to a consensus!
Walterfootball is pretty good. I have that one bookmarked.
I’m not a big “mock guy”, but I check that one when I do
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
I'm not a big mock guy either,
and while every draft is important this one is seemingly going to be huge for this organization. MarkSP will have more on this after we figure out who drafts where.
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
To sum up
Arguments for picking Luck:
1. He’s going to be like, really, really, super awesomely good, like better than everyone ever and that 100% guaranteed totally unmistakably for sure.
2. Ponder stinks.
Arguments against picking Luck:
1. Everyone thinks he’s good or even great, but OMG, Ryan Leaf
2. And our line sucks, so OMG David Carr
3. We have so many other needs and it’s a team game
4. We just used a first round pick on a QB last year and he looks like he could be good
Maybe I missed something, but I think that sums it up. The disconnect between the arguments is kind of fascinating.
and everyone has one.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
If the Vikings somehow pick Luck
If The Vikings somehow pick Andrwew Luck, if I were him I’d pull a Eli Manning (refused to go to SD) and demand someplace else. Otherwise, he’s gonna need to really up his disability and life insurance policy because he will be pulverized with the current OL. NO QB will last very long with this Viking OL………..doesn’t matter who it is.
by jjlovesfootball on Dec 20, 2011 10:59 AM CST reply actions
Not so.
Joe Webb did fine. :-)
Taking Luck at #1 doesn’t mean he has to play next year if that’s a legit fear. And if he decides not to play for the VIkings, well then, the Vikings can arrange a trade with another team. There will be plenty of suitors.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
trade the pick
we have so many needs as mentioned,dropping a few slot for extra picks seems like the best idea.drafting a quarterback early in the first would be foolish.the greatest quarterback without someone to throw it to is what perennial losers do
Takes more than a qb.to win games
Thank good Harvin didnt have a migrain this yr.They need receivers that can catch the ball and a line that will let them get down field.
Love the analogy
Although I’m not sure I’d put WR as even anything as important as an accelerator. Definitely FAR more important than a new QB, I agree 100%. But I don’t think our WR corps is as bad as people make them out to be. I haven’t been able to watch Emmanuel Arceneaux closely enough to make any judgment on him. But I do remember in the off-season, pre-season, and beginning of the season a good portion of the posts in DN raving about how good he looked. I have seen Camarillo and DA, though, and I do think they are good enough to see an NFL playing field. Both did on other teams in the recent past, and unlike Charlie Johnson, it wasn’t just out of desperation, and again, unlike Johnson, I don’t think they’ve regressed since they last did play for a non-Vikings team. Neither has the skills needed to be a “#1 receiver,” but I think both are good enough to find a spot on a roster (hopefully ours), if used correctly, especially Camarillo.
I agree that our secondary is full of epic fail. I couldn’t agree more with your summation of how bad it is. However, I do think that O-Line is a much higher priority, simply because I’d rather let the opposition rack up TDs and destroy us on the scoreboard than letting them rack up sacks and destroying our offensive backfield. If we don’t get a competent O-Line, we will need to get a new QB soon, because nobody can survive behind the one we have now.
Upgrading our secondary and offensive line will be a Herculean task. But if we can manage to get both to average or better, and if we have coaches that can use the pieces we have correctly (which I’m on the fence about the current ones), I think we’re at least a .500 team. The problem is, not only are we multiple players away from average in both areas, but on the offensive line, it will take time for them to become cohesive. So I’d settle for being able to keep the QB upright for next year, with a few pieces to work with, and hopefully becoming good again the year after. Not that I’m that optimistic that this would happen, but this is what I’m hoping for…
Chances are slim that many people will read this...
…and, I am not sure if this point has been made, because I didn’t have the time to read all the comments. But, here goes anyway:
I read in several comments that picking Luck is considered the quick fix mentality. I think a good argument could be made that it’s the other way around. It seems to me that using that pick to trade down and get more picks to fill as many holes as possible is the quick fix mentality. It’s basically saying that this year’s draft, if handled properly, will make the Vikings a competitive team faster. The way I see it, picking Luck shows a dedication to a longer term rebuilding of the team.
How does it though?
We already have a first Rd QB from last year. A pick which we would be wasting because no one would give up what we used to draft him for. He still would be without an O-line so chances are he would literally get killed out their as he is not as mobile as Webb or Ponder. What you are missing is that is unproven Luck a better long term option than Ponder/Kalil for the next decade. People seem to forget that Kalil is also being touted as one of the best Linemen to come out of a draft over the last few years as well. There will always be a “great” QB coming out of every draft.
As far as anyone knows,
the Ponder pick may have already been wasted. Every team has wasted first round picks before, and they will all do it again. I think this is a scenario where the team cannot allow Ponder’s draft position to influence how they approach the next draft. Pretend that Ponder was selected in the third round — it really doesn’t matter. The team needs to evaluate what they know about Ponder and Luck and ask this question about each: Can this QB serve as the cornerstone of the Vikings going forward? If the answer for both is yes, then keep Ponder. But, if the answer is yes only for Luck, make the pick and don’t look back.
Also,
There is no way in the the Vikings are picking @ #1 so why are you even bothering thinking about it?
Don't be such a defeatist. WE CAN LOSE, WE CAN WIN THAT BOTTOM SPOT.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
People can keep saying that
But it doesn’t make it make any sense.
Picking Luck is gambling that you’re going to hit it big with one really great player. That may not be as “quick” a fix as actually building talent across the whole team, but it certainly isn’t the more patient or wiser strategy. It ignores needs and put too much emphasis on one position.
But even if getting multiple talents player at multiple positions is “quicker” that’s hardly something to be faulted.
I don't have a strong opinion on Luck vs. Ponder
because I don’t have expertise in evaluating NFL talent. If the Vikings still believe, based on what they know about Ponder after the season, that picking him was the first big step in rebuilding this team, then they should keep him. If they don’t, AND they believe that Luck can be a cornerstone, make the pick. That doesn’t mean they are ignoring needs, it just means they are filling them in the order of the best opportunity. All drafting is gambling.
I agree with your statement here that if Ponder isn't the future and you think Luck is you make the pick
but people here are arguing that we should take Luck because he MIGHT be a top-tier QB someday and MIGHT be a slight upgrade to Ponder in the future.
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Agreed.
While I don’t recall seeing the “Luck is a quick fix” argument, I do agree with your point that it seems that the counter argument for going with other positions is based on fixing obvious problems we have now rather than building this team to win in the long run. While it’s definitely a team game, no position makes as much impact on the long term future of a team as the QB does.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Fixing our problems
IS building this team to win in the long run. It means putting in place talent across the team that is currently missing.
Is there some alternate definition of “build” that I’m missing?
Clearly, I should step away, but this particular line of argument — that taking Luck is the serious, hard-minded, sober thing to do while addressing actual needs is short-term, quick-fix thinking — really annoys me.
Luck’s the newest, shiniest, brightest toy in the toy store. Picking him is deciding that he’s so valuable that you can’t pass. That’s not a sober, patient decision. It might be a sound one, but it’s not inherently better BECAUSE it leaves other needs unmet for another year.
Hold on there babalooey
I don’t see anyone making an argument that picking Luck is inherently better BECAUSE it leaves other needs unmet. (I left out “for another year” because that is ridiculous considering that the Vikings do have other draft picks.) The point I was trying to make is that the team should not automatically make their draft picks in the the order of greatest need. If QB is a need, pretty much without regard to how pressing the need is, and the Vikings think Luck will be a cornerstone of the team in the future, they should make the pick. Let me put it another way: if the answer to the question “How do the Vikings look at the QB position?” is “Eh, we have a serviceable starter, I think he’ll do”, then I think they should pick Luck if given the opportunity.
by Ben T on Dec 20, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
No,
it shows a dedication to Sexy, the end result of which is a long road back to excellence. Ironically that is not what is expected by those that want Sexy.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 9:51 PM CST up reply actions
yeah that was my take BPA
Go BPA every time and build your team out of great players instead of good players. The AD pick up was a blatant show of this. Not many people listened though, oh well. The question is can we wait 3 years for a great team or 2 years for a good team?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Joe Webb
should be our starting QB in 2012.
And Ponder should be traded for a WR now while he still has value. Webb has talent that we can see, Ponder has untapped potential that someone may still believe.
We did last year, We have Percy and Rice
Oh yea, do not use stat because they are great indicators of what is going on in the game. That makes perfect sense to me. wow.
No.
Watching how someone plays is how you know if they are good. According to your theory, Donald Brown is the greatest running back right now because he had 161 yards last week.
Go back to your grandmother’s fruit cellar.
No but "watching" a QB throw only on TD in 14 quarters of play
makes it quite obvious he is not a franchise QB. moron.
Oh, please.
He moved the offense against the Lions virtually at will…and virtually on his own. He scored one with his legs, one with his arm and took the team from its own 20 to the 1 yard line on the 3rd drive. That’s the best three consecutive drives the Vikings have had all year. And all you can come up with is “only one TD in 14 quarters of play?” That’s weak. And it’s 11.5 quarters if we’re really keeping score.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
He is a lot better than people want to admit.
well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?
Yet Christian Ponder
Has somehow managed to find a way to throw 13 touchdown passes in 8 starts.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 20, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
Not that great?
Ponder’s TD% is 6% above league avg. that is good.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
Meh. Definately not great. And how many of those are shovel Passes and Screens.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
Does it kill you when Ponder does well?
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
No, but it kills you to hear any honest assessment of Ponder.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 22, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
Right, as hi-lighted by all of your "objective" posts.
Seriously, a ROOKIE on a shitty team is 6% above leage average in td passes and yet here you are trying to find something negative
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
Actually, it was 18tds ans 12 ints. And he won the super bowl MVP.
And he was a Pro bowler that year.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, mistyped by 2........
so the proof is right there. His numbers were not gaudy by any stretch, but, he had a great supporting cast. You just made the case for keeping Ponder.
Nope.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 20, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
But.......
Brady had less than eye-popping numbers and won a Super Bowl. So, it HAS to be the entire team, not one player. You pointed out the hardware Brady garnered, in spite of his stats. What is your point then?
and by contrast........
Marino has just about ALL the numbers, with no hardware. Again, what is the point?
Manning had a bunch of numbers and no hardware
for the longest time too. Took him about a decade to finally get that ring.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 7:31 PM CST up reply actions
Brady was the super bowl MVP. Far superior to Ponder in every way.
You really shouldn’t attempt to compare the two players. It will only hurt your position.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
Brady was also in his second year
And his stats in that SB game weren’t exactly ‘eye-popping.’
16/27 59.3% 145 yds. 1 TD 0 Ints.
Looks like game managing. And that’s how it appeared during the game too. He just didn’t hurt his team and made some clutch throws at the end. It didn’t hurt his defense had an Int-TD return either.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
I also want to point out that Warner
the ‘superstar QB’ of that Superbowl had something around 400 yards passing, and he lost. FB is such a team game, it takes so much more than just an elite QB to make win it. It doesn’t hurt, obviously, but he can’t do it on his own.
He needs pieces around him, and on defense. And some good special teams.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
He sat his first year. Nobody tried to make him a wr.
And he started over Drew Bledsoe in the big game. And was….
SUPER BOWL MVP
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 22, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
On the bright side the 2013 draft is going to be full of great OTs
D.J. Fluker, Sentreal Henderson, Xavier Nixon, etc.. so maybe we can get one of those guys next year too
I am now convinced
That Andrew Luck is a victim here.
There is no way he can live up to this hype. No matter what he does, it will not be enough to carry a team on his back, since there are another 52 players on every team, and coaches, and front office, etc.
In addition, there will be people getting in his face for the first time ever, like the Jared Allens or the Ray Lewis’s, who he didn’t even know existed in college, because he was largely untouched behind his O-line, and if they don’t destroy him, then trying to live up to his own reputation will.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 2:18 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I find it funny
that last year when everyone was throwing Webb overboard for Ponder, their position was that Webb, after having 2 starts in his Rookie season, that we needed to draft a new qb. Now, those same people, when being told that we should draft Luck reply with “Ponder’s still a rookie, cut him some slack”.
Funny how fans can just completely ignore their own stances on things in the past just to make the same arguments their argumentative opponents did a short time before.
April, 2010….We need to draft a #1 round QB because Webb isn’t showing any promise as a result of his 2 starts.
Nov. 2010, same people: We don’t need to draft another qb because Ponder is only in his rookie season and will grow and learn.
For the record, I don’t think we should draft Luck, I think Ponder will do OK if we get him the Oline we need. Also, I think Webb would be fine if we got him the Oline we need. I think that neither Luck, Webb, Ponder, Favre, Ferrotte, Manning, Brady, Rodgers etc. will do good behind our current Oline and lack of decent receivers. Couple it with bad play calling and I don’t understand how changing the qb will help the team. Which is exactly what I said last year when we were debating bringing in Ponder and neglecting the Oline and the Secondary once again.
Oh man, now we're bring back the Webb v Ponder debate
This thread might reach a million posts
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
At this point
I just want to keep posting to see how long this thread will go
by Amrius on Dec 20, 2011 3:48 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That's silly
No one expected Webb to be a starting QB (that’s why he was drafted in the 6th round as a WR), and while his performance was better than expected, it wasn’t anything that suggested that he will develop into a starting QB.
That’s not the same at all as drafting a young QBOTF and him showing ability at times and struggling at times.
Webb has great football instincts.
I was under the mistaken impression that the front office liked him and was gonna start him this year. Then, for some weird reason, we picked up both Ponder and McDamnabit.
If we reach a million posts, it is because we are solving the world’s problems and probably gonna cure cancer and build a spaceship to Alpha Centuri by next year. Oh wait, only Luck can do that! ;)
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
Where did you get that impression?
I never saw anything that I thought indicated the the FO was gonna have him start.
I think it was from someone on ESPN who was pretty excited...
It was mistaken because I didn’t see anything about it from our FO, either…
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Shit, I was all for Webb starting this last season
And then they drafted Ponder, and there was much gnashing of teeth.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 7:33 PM CST up reply actions
Signals coming from the FO
was that they were going to look at a QB in that draft right from the start. they were never ambiguous about their thoughts on starting Webb.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 20, 2011 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
You have to stop playing Civ..
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
I disagree about passing on Luck...
…even if it means putting him on a shelf for a year, but I otherwise agree with your post.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Best post in ln long long time
Couldnt have said it better myself!!
I can bottom line it for a lot of you who are completely dreaming!
1- we will be drafting 3-4 at best!!! There is Zero chance of drafting luck!
2- Ponder has looked great when given the opportunity to make his reads and has a receiver to pass too! We knew going into the season our O-line was laughable and we had zero receivers! It is almost like we wanted to be 2-14 this year! We passed on numerous free agent lineman, and receivers as well! There were CB’s we could have picked up as well!
Our salary cap situation only shows out management of $$ is horrible!
If you give Ponder a line that an protect and receivers tht can get open? He will be solid! In the Luck caliber, no, but great , I think!!!
So, to sum it up? We need to shore up the line, receivers and secondary or we will suck for long time!
Also, not to mention! Frazier and company are horrible! He needs to but won’t be fired! He is embarrassing to say the least!
by PURPLEPUSSYEATER on Dec 20, 2011 4:58 PM CST via mobile reply actions
What about Indy
Anyone been to Indy’s site? How long is the thread over there? You would think the comments might get alittle heated about this. We here are talking about Luck vs Ponder. It might get ugly trying to be civil talking Luck vs Manning.
Which is why the Colts are going to trade as well.
(Depending on Mannings health of course)
I don’t think the Colts want to deal with the Luck/Manning drama….That would be like the Favre/Rodgers fiasco multiplied by 10.
If Manning gets a clear bill of health before the draft, I think the Colts will trade.
If the verdict on Mannings health is undecided at the time of the draft, they’ll definitely take Luck.
Not sure if that is 100% true
The Colts will probably have the first overall pick in next year’s NFL draft and will definitely pick in the top three, and Bill Polian says he doesn’t want to trade down.
Polian all but confirmed to Adam Schein and Rich Gannon on SiriusXM NFL Radio that he wants to stay put and draft Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck, rather than trade the pick to stockpile talent on a roster that has holes in several places.
It could all be a smoke screen, but I don’t think so.
If I were Indy
I would get Luck and sit him under Manning for 2-4 years. Manning ought to retire by 40, and Luck will have learned from a master and be ready to take over the universe.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 20, 2011 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
They can't
not enough cap room + neither player wants to do that. Plus, what if Luck beat out Manning for the starting job?
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 20, 2011 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
I could see this scenario:
Manning restructures, takes a decent salary cut, luck sits behind him….
in a couple of years, Manning retires from play, becomes the O-coordinator and Luck starts his career.
But what if Luck doesn't want to sit for 2 years?
If your the best in every catagory at what you do, have been the biggest, fastest, most accurate kid in your life since pre-school, and are hearing hype unrivaled by any college QB in the last 10 years it’ll kinda suck to suddenly be told your not good enough to be starting.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 21, 2011 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
Luck will decide his own future anyway
Maturity would dictate learning from one of the best
Immaturity would say now now now
And everyone says that they have to adjust to the speed of the game out of college anyway… he’s never really been tested in having to throw quickly. He had all day to pass in college behind a monster OL.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 21, 2011 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
WOW
I just went over to Indy’s site. Not at all what I expected. Some think Luck is not the QB for them for several reasons. One said that taking Luck #1 was a “boring pick”! Didn’t see any talk of Kalil for them.
Its boring because they won't get to see him for the next several years
I’d assume they’re looking more for a defensive pick, though I’m kind of surprised Kalil isn’t on their radar either, with their O-line.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
The Steelers should trade up to pick Luck
The Steelers lost on Monday and big Ben had 3 picks and fumbled. The Steelers need to trade up in the draft and pick Luck because he is a can’t miss prospect. The way I see it only the team that picks Luck has any future of winning the SB.
On a side note….. How about them San Diego Chargers trading off the lowly Drew Brees because the prototypical Andrew L…… I mean Philip Rivers was their sure fire solution for winning the SB…………….
by vaeine on Dec 20, 2011 10:27 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
lol Yeah, exactly
Luck is such a hot prospect that all 31 other teams should be offering the kitchen sink for him.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 20, 2011 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Ok, I'm both a Pats and Viking fan
and last year the Pats were looking into drafting a tackle. I questioned whether any O-line position is worth spending a top-20 pick on, as none of them are that important to a team. They do matter, but look at Peyton Manning, Adrian Peterson, Randy Moss, Fitzgerald, etc – these are guys that carry their team. They are the teams backbone, face, and heart – can you think of any team that has a O-linemen playing that roll?
With that said, I don’t think the Viking should go for a QB. Thats outrageous – if we don’t start Ponder, Webb is good enough to be starting IMO. I haven’t seen anything I don’t like from Webb, and see nothing wrong with using him and Ponder going forward.
Ideally, we get Blackmon. Him and Harvin would be like Moss and Welker of 2007. The number of shutdown corners in the league is 2 at best. The number of dominant WRs in the league is probably about 20. The rules favor offenses. So, thats why I’d take Blackmon.
Also – You don’t need a great QB to be successful. Big Ben is way worse then Manning, and yet he’s won more Superbowls.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 20, 2011 11:29 PM CST reply actions
If you have a line of probowlers you can have Miss Kitterly's preschool class run plays behind them.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
maybe not an O-lineman playing the role
but Randle McDaniel for the vikes in the 90’s was the cornerstone of the ofensive success they had in the 90’s. Dallas doesn’t win 3 superbowls in the 90’s without their dominant O-line.
we could have Jesus Christ as our #1 receiver, and we won’t succeed if Ponder only has .8 seconds to throw…..or for that matter, we could have Jesus Christ as our QB, and he wouldn’t be successful with our O-line and .8 seconds to throw.
Really?
Offensive lineman aren’t that important to a team? That is the foundation of every single football team. Look at us this year. We have a terrible line. Two years ago, our line was pretty solid. It wasn’t being talked about, which is usually a good thing. And for the weaknesses we did have, we had someone who could get away from that pressure.
Last year, we regressed a lot on the line. We went 4 and 12.
This year, our line is miserable. So bad that our play makers can’t make plays. AP struggles for every single yard that he gets, hasn’t had very many huge runs at all compared to the past, and Ponder is getting hammered. He can’t get the ball to anyone. There is no vertical passing game because Ponder doesn’t have enough time for players to get deep and our tackles, who are supposed to protect our quarterback from speed rushers have given up 16 between the two of them.
The offensive line gets little to no recognition but they are one of the most important pieces to a football team. You don’t have an offensive line to protect your play makers, you might as well not have any play makers.
yes, they are one of the most important parts
but you can’t draft an entire o-line with 1 pick. A single O-linemen doesn’t have the same impact as a single receiver.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 21, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
No, you can't draft them all in one pick.
But drafting one (potentially) amazing left tackle would do wonders for everyone on that offense. This team isn’t going to turn around with one good wide receiver anyway. If Ponder doesn’t have time to throw, that receiver will never see the ball. Put someone who can shut down a pass rushing DE out there protecting his blindside, you buy him some time.
Not to mention, you can move Charlie Johnson in to guard where he should be, and maybe actually get some use out of him. That’s three decent linemen there if you include Sully who is apparently good now. That’s two more decent linemen than we have right now. I love Hutch but he’s regressing badly. Maybe pick up another lineman in round 4 or 5 and you have a little depth.
Everyone who follows football very closely knows that games are won and lost in the trenches. But they don’t get the recognition they deserve because they don’t catch touchdown passes or run the football. They only get talked about when they do something wrong. Watch the best teams in the league. They keep their quarterbacks upright and they open running lanes for their running backs. The bad teams in the league have problems with that.
Teams that have allowed the most sacks this year:
32. St. Louis Rams
31. Arizona Cardinals
30. Miami Dolphins
29. Minnesota Vikings
28. Seattle Seahawks
There is a distinct theme there. Those teams aren’t very good. The best teams on that list are the Seahawks and the Cardinals at 7-7. But they also get to play each other and the Rams twice a year. So that can be misleading. Lol
A left tackle may not directly give you a boost in the stat column himself, but put him in there and reshuffle the line a bit (maybe add a player in free agency) and you’ll see a boost in almost every play maker’s stats.
A high second pick
is about as good as a 1st round pick. You (or someone) said the Patriots have a good O-line so thats why they have success. And yet, they’ve been drafting in the mid 20s for the last 10 years – if we, the Vikings, used out early 30s pick on a tackle that is exactly the level of player the Patriots “probowl line” was built with.
I guess my point is we can have a decent O-line without using a 2nd overall.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 21, 2011 8:26 PM CST up reply actions
But they make trades and acquire several high round draft picks almost every year.
Although, that takes good front office maneuvering and planning. We don’t have that.
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask of the Spiderman
And you don't trash talk about him
by REVENGE4WEBB on Dec 21, 2011 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
Not 2nd overall good.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 21, 2011 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
The Patriots make good personnel decisions.
We don’t make as many good decisions, which is why we’re in this situation. The Pats are good at finding diamonds in the rough. We are not. We need an anchor for this line for the next decade and Kalil would be that anchor. And there aren’t nearly as many free agent options for linemen as there are for wide receiver. There are quite a few for WR. We could feasibly pick up a WR that will help us immensely in FA but there won’t be anywhere close to the same amount of quality linemen.
If we want a top flight LT, we do need to pick him that early. If we don’t, we could very well continue to get mediocre to decent players and still be in the same predicament. We wouldn’t have upgraded our line at all and we would continue to have the exact same problems we have right now.
FAs come along every year
having a 2nd overall is once in a decade, unless your really, really bad. I don’t believe we are that bad.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 21, 2011 9:18 PM CST up reply actions
Sure, FAs come along every year
but teams don’t let cornerstone LTs hit FA. Not often enough to count on.
And, without McKinnie, it becomes imperitive we draft somebody to man his previous position and protect our franchise QB. Good WRs hit free agency constantly, because they’re much easier to replace.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, the trades they've made have kicked them up
the board too. Mayo, for instance, was a #10 selection. And they had a pick in the teens this last draft as well, if I’m not mistaken, from the Raiders.
by REVENGE4KLUWE on Dec 22, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
Ok, how about this:
You name me the last time the Patriots, or any other team, have used a top-5 pick on an offensive linemen and had him end up being worth the pick: Consistently starting and at least one pro-bowl are expected.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 22, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
D'Brickashaw Ferguson off the top of my head
Billick: "What did McNabb do to deserve being benched?"
Answer: He upset PETA by killing every worm he came across on a football field.
D'Brickashaw.
Jake Long was selected number 1 overall. Levi Brown at number 5. Was a Pro Bowl alternate and has started all but two games for the Cardinals. Joe Thomas was picked at number 3 that same draft and has been to a Pro Bowl every year since he entered the league in 2007. Robert Gallery was picked number 2 overall by the Raiders and was considered a bust at the tackle position but was then switched to guard and was considered one of their best linemen after that. Chris Samuels was picked third in 2000 by the Redskins and went to 6 Pro Bowls in his 10 year career and was an All-Pro. That was every top 5 lineman selected since 2000 succeeding very well except for maybe two or three. Pretty good success rate, in my opinion. Better success rate than most of the skill positions selected that high. I’d say it works out pretty well.
Btw,
in case you don’t know, because I didn’t list his accomplishments, Jake Long is considered the one of the best LTs in the game right now. Behind only Joe Thomas, who I mentioned above. He’s been to three Pro Bowls in his first three years and has started all 60 games of his career.
If we got a dude that played at the same level as D'Brick
for a second overall, would you be satisfied? I can’t say I would.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 22, 2011 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
A two time Pro Bowler with a wingspan of 87 inches?
Hell yeah, I would. The only Pro Bowler on our line right now is Hutch and his career is (sadly) juuuust about over.
But for a second overall pick, You could very well get a Jake Long or Joe Thomas type tackle. A perennial Pro Bowler, only allows maybe 2 sacks per season, will hold down your line for a decade or more. Protecting the players you pay to make plays.
The protection for those players is just as important as getting those players. Like I said before, if you can’t protect them, they can’t make plays. Just like the Vikings this year. We have the best running back in the NFL, a capable number 2 running back, a receiver who is very quickly becoming an up-and-coming star, and a quarterback who could be very good if allowed he had a pocket. And yet we have two wins. And I don’t need to hear that we don’t have any other receivers. You can win with the combination of AP, Ponder, Harvin, Gerhart, Shank, and Rudolph. Tight ends should be a rookie QBs best friend, anyway.
But when your team gives up 45 sacks and who knows how many hurried throws and QB hits, and makes it so that the best running back in the league gets stuffed on an unusual amount of his runs, it’s hard to do much of anything. Like score. Or win.
To fans who only look at the fancy stats like rushing yardage or passing yardage, his name won’t be in that column, but I’ll be damned if he wouldn’t be helping to improve those stats for the better. That’s why I, and every team in the league, want a franchise left tackle.
For us, it’s a better choice. We have play makers and can get a really good wide receiver in free agency. Our line is so completely screwed that we need to go for the best talent we can possibly get and that is Matt Kalil if available. If for some reason, he is gone, then by all means, draft Blackmon or Kirkpatrick. Or trade out. I would be totally fine with either one of those. But only if Kalil is gone. And then they would need to figure out a way to seriously fix this line.
On a side note, I missed a top 5 pick for a lineman. Leonard Davis was picked 2nd overall in 2001. He made 3 Pro Bowls.
But once again
your assuming that not drafting a lineman with the 2nd overall = not protecting our players. Most teams don’t draft linemen that high. Ironically, the team that did still allows quite a few sacks – I don’t have the numbers, but it doesn’t seem like any QB in the AFC east takes as many sacks as Sanchez.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 22, 2011 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
I'm saying that he's our best option.
I think you’re severely underestimating the value of a franchise left tackle.
And, for all we know, the Vikings might not even take him. Everything at this point is pure speculation. We don’t even know if they’ll be draft 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.
Colts are not giving up that 1st overall
And once again – You don’t need to draft in the top five to get a franchise player. Heck, Adrian Peterson wasn’t a top 5 – does anyone say franchise more then him? I understand its speculation, and I’m giving my opinion as to why I think the Vikings will/should take Blackmon.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 22, 2011 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
Adrian Peterson fell because of injury concerns.
No one really knew that he’d turn into what he has turned into. They knew he had potential, but there was a big risk involved in some people’s eyes
Yea, that happends.
Franchise players will often fall to the late 1st and even 2nd or third round. If you want a lineman who will hold his own against Clay Matthews, Julius Peppers, and Ndamakong Suh 5+ years, you should be able to find ones in this draft without picking top 5.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 22, 2011 11:14 PM CST up reply actions
You could.
But Kalil will probably go to a team in the top 5. He is the best left tackle in this draft. The other ones could hold their own, but Kalil has the potential to dominate. That’s all I’m saying. I think with this team the way it is, we would be safe picking almost any top rated prospect. Except for QB or RB. WR, O-line, LB and CB would all help immensely. Believe me, you won’t catch me complaining if they pick Blackmon or Kirkpatrick. But I just think I’d like to have Kalil.
Yea
thats your opinion and I’m fine with it lol, not trying to force you to change your mind or anything. Kirkpatrick might actually be better then Blackmon. I’ve been going with Blackmon because it seems like getting a dominant WR is way more likely then getting a shut-down corner.
And I’m not sure I’d complain if we took Kalil – its just that if we take Blackmon and he’s a bust I’d feel like “ah well, we tried”, where as if Kalil busts I’ll be more likely to think “man, wtf were we thinking.”
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 23, 2011 2:07 AM CST up reply actions
Upon examinign Kirkpatrick's Wikipedia page..
I see that he is compared to Antonio Cromartie – is that good? I don’t think of Cromartie as being much better then average.
Oh my god a floor zombie! Oh wait, thats you
- Toby Turner
by New Century Silver on Dec 23, 2011 2:09 AM CST up reply actions
Well, Cromartie gets a decent amount of picks.
Which would help a lot seeing as our defense has just broken an NFL record for games without an INT. And he’s pretty quick. I think they’re comparing the playing style, maybe not so much the potential that Kirkpatrick has. But then again, I don’t know. And even still, Cromarie is so much better than any CB that we have on our roster that even if we had a player like him, it would be a much needed upgrade.
Interesting tidbit
I’m sure people on here know regarding Rodgers and his mechanics. To me, it also brings to light that the friction between Rodgers and Favre was not as one-sided as people made it out to be. Though my point is Ponder is more than capable to lead the team, if given the right circumstances and coaching.
Rich Gannon: My last question. I just want to follow up on Aaron Rodgers. I know you study a lot of tape. I know you studied Aaron Rodgers coming out of Cal and his throwing mechanics, his stroke, his motion. As a former quarterback I think Mike McCarthy’s done an excellent job of training him, his footwork and all of those things. In terms of his stroke and in terms of his arm strength I think he’s one of the best in the business. I don’t know that anyone has as strong an arm as this guy
Phil Simms: I don’t think there’s anybody in the game that can flick and make the throws…
Rich Gannon: and spin it-
Phil Simms:-and spins it. Oh my gosh can he rotate the ball which makes him an all weather thrower, that’s why it’s important. You know Rich I saw him come out of college and I sit here and I say this with all honesty- I’ve been wrong on a few- not many- but I didn’t like him. I thought ‘Man, that throwing motion. That’s looks like something out of Pop Warner football-’
Rich Gannon: -they changed it though, a little bit
Phil Simms:. So I went up there, watched him his first year in practice. “Awful,” I said “Wow. He’s awful.”
Second year I went up there and I remember somebody going “What did you think?” I said "Well the Packers have to be worried that this guy is never going to play for them. I mean really, and you know what, and this is the truth; they were worried.
Then year three I go up there and I’m watching out of the corner of my eye and I go “Wow.” I thought it was Brett and I turned and I watched Aaron Rodgers and I went “Oh my God” and after practice is almost over I said, “Hey Aaron!”
He goes “Oh, hey Phil”.
I said, “Don’t take this the wrong way, but your throwing- it’s unbelievable.”
He goes “Yeah, I know, I’m not taking it wrong, don’t worry. Thanks, I appreciate it. Look, I kind of went back to being natural. Kind of taught myself, they taught me some things.”
Rich, it was an unbelievable transformation. He really went from on a scale of 1-10; he went from a three to a ten. That’s about what I thought. I thought he was a sub-par NFL thrower. Below average, way below average to arguably the best now. It’s unbelievable.
It took 3 years
for them to get Rodgers in playing shape, yet people are wanting to jettison Ponder after 8 games and no offensive line or receivers. Come on, man! ;)
I'm not comparing Ponder to Rodgers in ability/arm
Just the fact that they took their sweet time and actually developed him into a star.
Drafting a QB
Using your first pick to draft a QB.Has anyone ever seen this done just to turn around and trade him, I seem to remember seeing it a few times and coming out of it with multiple picks in the draft. Some teams are so despirate for QB’s next season they might be willing to give up all there choices lol probably not but I think you get my drift. Ponder has proven his worth I dont think any QB could throw a ball with that O line. So my opinion an O line and a secondary, I have seen High school teams with a better secondary maybe even some middle schools.
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