Issues With Leslie, Part One
by Christopher Gates on Dec 5, 2011 11:46 AM CST
in Minnesota Vikings 2011 Season
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PrintYes, there's going to be a second part to this later on during the week, as I have a couple of different issues with the head coach at this moment in time, but I want to handle them one at a time.
In Tom Pelissero's recap of the game for ESPN 1500, there was one quote that I think kind of highlights what might be the issue with the Vikings' defensive scheme.
"We've been playing that coverage forever, and to see it played the way it was played (Sunday) was just bad."
And he's right. . .we have been playing that coverage forever.
I'm guessing that's the biggest part of the problem.
Yes, the "Cover 2" or "Tampa 2" defensive scheme can work in the National Football League if you have the horses to run it. When the Vikings' front four consisted of Jared Allen, Kevin Williams, Pat Williams, and Ray Edwards, they had those horses because those four guys could get to the quarterback and let everyone else play coverage. Now, after having replaced Edwards and Phat Pat with Brian Robison (who, as much as we love him, has really dropped off after his fast start) and whatever rotation at defensive tackle, it's not happening any more.
It also doesn't help that this team is without three of their top four cornerbacks. . .and the one of the top four that is there, Cedric Griffin, looks like he might be done as an effective player in this league. He just can't hack it at corner any more, and I'm starting to wonder if he could hack it at safety, either. Speaking of safety, we're down two of our top three guys there, too. To highlight this, here's what our secondary consisted of for yesterday's game.
-Cedric Griffin
-Jamarca Sanford, who either wasn't communicating with Griffin or just flat out doesn't know his assignments. . .it looked like Griffin thought he was passing Demaryius Thomas off to Sanford a few times, and Sanford was unaware of it.
-Benny Sapp, who was watching games on his couch a few weeks ago
-Brandon Burton, a fifth-round pick in this year's draft
-Mistral Raymond, a sixth-round pick in this year's draft
-Marcus Sherels, who would be best suited as a special teams guy
But even with those injuries, the defense the Vikings played in the second half is unacceptable. Fred Pagac is probably a dead man walking at this point, and if Joe Woods isn't getting his resume prepped, he ought to be. I'm not sure of Frazier would promote Mike Singletary to the defensive coordinator spot, and if he did, I'm not sure how effective a move that would be.
However, it's time for this team to abandon the Tampa-2 system. I don't know if that means simply going to a more aggressive version of the 4-3 or even taking the radical step of shifting to a 3-4 (which is something that would probably involve either trading Jared Allen or attempting to convert him into a stand-up outside linebacker, which could be tricky), but something needs to be changed here.
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Yeah I agree about a lot of his issues,
granted, he is a first time head coach and he has to do just as much learning as anyone. Given, the Tampa 2 needs to either go or be drastically modified to the point where a simple “Seam Route” from a slot receiver gives up 15 yards every play, or a 25 yard go up the sideline doesn’t get covered because of a miscommunication between the corner and the safety.
If you didn’t see it already, Leslie Frazier isn’t going anywhere because Zygi Wilf just pronounced him safe:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/05/wilf-says-frazier-will-definitely-be-back-next-year/
I think Fred Pagac is gone. He’s been one of the worst defensive coordinators we’ve had in a while and it isn’t close.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
This confirms in my mind that Ziggy is, perhaps, nuts.
No one in his right mind would say in the middle of a 2-10 season that ANYONE is safe. The only thing I’m positive about is that Frazier will make more mistakes by the end of the year.
Frazier looks WAY too comfortable being a loser right now. I’m pretty sure we’re gonna see him pull up a barka-lounger on the field next year if he gets even more comfortable.
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 5, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't want to pay three head coach salaries either though
Remember, he’s still on the hook for Childress. If you fire LF, you’d have to pay him as well. Paying 3 head coaches, no matter your circumstance, is simple bad business.
by Jepp The Viking on Dec 5, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
Which just goes to prove my point
The NFL changes so fast that extending a multi-year contract to a first-year unproven coach and writing a long-term contract for a coach that the players hated (Childress) was and is nuts.
Bad business is definitely what Wilf is doing…
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 5, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
Overreacting?
The only thing I’m positive about is that Frazier will make more mistakes by the end of the year.
Of course he will. No coach is perfect. They all make mistakes every week, especially rookie coaches. I’m also sure that Ponder will make more mistakes by the end of the year. I think we can afford to cut them both a little slack.
Frazier looks WAY too comfortable being a loser right now
What’s he supposed to do? Yell and scream and sulk around? Frazier is not, and never will be, that kind of coach. He subscribes to the stoic, calm in all circumstances school of coaching (and no school is right or wrong, they’ve all been successful). He believes his job is to keep things calm in the midst of a storm, and that is what he will do. His outward emotional response should have nothing to do with whether or not he keeps his job.
Let’s keep in mind how awful our roster had been coming into this season. And how short the offseason was for Frazier to implement anything. I’m frankly amazed that our offense has worked as well as it has given how little time Musgrave had to install it and the frankly alarming state of our offensive line play. Firing Frazier with the circumstances he was put into would be dreadfully unfair at this point, and not reflect well on the franchise. No one wants to work for a team that’s that quick to fire a guy who was put in a bad situation (who is gonna be willing to take his job knowing they have no time to right the ship?). That said, he should probably be considered to be on a tight leash next season.
But I don’t think the problem is the Cover-2. No scheme works when you don’t have the right personnel or your secondary is riddled with injuries. If Winfield and Cook were healthy and not stupid respectively, this defense would look much better. The answer isn’t switching to another scheme where our personnel fit even less.
And switching to a 3-4? Are you kidding me? We’ve been drafting our corners to be zone coverage corners that can play the run. Switching them to a mostly man coverage scheme or a different zone coverage scheme would be disastrous. Our linebackers are all undersized for a 3-4 scheme. We have no defensive linemen that can play even one of the three down spots in the scheme. All we have that could work in a 3-4 is probably Jared Allen (he’s better as a 4-3 end) and Everson Griffen (who, admittedly, would probably be a beast in a 3-4 scheme).
I think it would be much easier to restock our defense with talent than to switch schemes at this point. We’re not a great defense, but we’re closer to being a great Cover-2 defense than we are to being great at another scheme.
by Cobra312004 on Dec 5, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rumor has it that it is $2.2 million
So basically Wilf would be on the hook for $6.6 million for Childress and $2.2 million for Frazier.
And I’m not referring to Frazier’s demeanor. I don’t care if he acts like Chewbacca or Jean-Claude Van Damme or a face on Mount Rushmore. The fact is that 99% of the time they show his face he isn’t doing anything. Meaning, he’s not talking to his coaches, he’s not talking to players, he’s not yapping with the booth, and he’s not diagramming or making adjustments on plays.
Show me a successful coach who does almost nothing on the sideline?
by liveforadrenaline on Dec 5, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
Well...
You’re right, there isn’t a successful coach that does nothing on the sideline. But then again, you have NO idea whether or not Frazier is doing anything on the sideline either.
“99%” is clearly a made up number. And what you see on TV is on the broadcast team, not Frazier. He can’t control what he’s doing when the director cuts to him. Unless you are at the game where you can watch what Frazier does the entire game, and then actually watch Frazier for the entire game and take notes on it, that argument is completely invalid.
Don't forget all the shitty players we released and no one claimed
We are on the hook for their contracts as well… at least with Berrian they were smart enough to restructure before they waived him
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
anyone else notice
Jared Allen dropping back into coverage on a few 3rd downs? seemed like a waste of his skill set
Who and when
Can anyone tell me the last time our D had an INT that was not Jared and when?
Abdullah got one a few weeks ago
And I think one other CB atleast this year.
2011 Vikings, keeping the liquor industry in the green ALL YEAR LONG!
We haven't had an interception
Since JaMarca Sanford’s second one in the fourth quarter of the game against Arizona.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 5, 2011 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
I wonder...
… if that’s Jared Allen improvising and not the coaches call.
correct
It’s called a zone blitz. We’ve been doing it with Allen for years. It’s especially useful to do with Allen because they’ll often have a double team committed to Allen already, and then they have to adjust on the fly to the blitzing LB from the other side.
We've done it with lots of guys
You remember Hardware Hank dropping back on the occasional zone blitz coverage? Now that was amusing.
I recall reading some article about JA's thoughts on playing coverage
If he wasn’t asked to he wouldn’t be doing it, this was a while ago though so thing may have changed. Doubt they have though a guy like Allen will always want to go hit the QB
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
I agree
Pagac is gone after the final game. However, I don’t know if Singletary can even be an effective coordinator, he hasn’t even been a good linebackers coach. I’d say try to bring in Steve Spagnuolo from the Rams because he looks like a dead man walking as well. He looked like a worth while defensive coordinator when he was with the Giants.
by christian220896 on Dec 5, 2011 12:14 PM CST reply actions
Spags was a great D-coordinator,
he won a Super Bowl coaching a 4-3. I’d be ALL for getting him as our DC.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Yup
My thoughts exactly. I don’t know how much Wilf would have to pony up to get him, but at the right cost I’d say go for it. Hell, this is just as thought as well but demote Musgrave to QB coach and hire Norv Turner as offensive coordinator. If we’re going to wish might as well go big or not go at all.
by christian220896 on Dec 5, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
I'm liking Musgrave more now that Ponder's in though,
I say he gets one more year because of Ponder’s development. No point in switching offenses on him.
Pagac, though, has gotta go.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Oh no
Yes on Musgrqve demotion to QB Coach but NOOOOO to Turner.
have to disagree with the musgrave demotion. since ponder took over, our offense has consistently put up 20+ points except for the gb game, every game. we need to retool things on offense a bit (OL of course) but i think musgrave has earned a 2nd year
Yeah 30 points
WITHOUT Adrian Peterson
considering our other skill players on offense that is very good… What looks like bad coaching to some people looks like lack of talent to me, we gambled a lot on picking up FA’s and trading. Teams that do that usually aren’t successful at it for long and end up like we are here; with a huge void of talent outside of a handful of players
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
This season is tough...
I mostly agree with these issues. However, it’s tough to judge whether it’s a coaching or a talent issue.
Our secondary was not the best to begin with and then we basically lost our entire starting secondary so it’s hard for me to expect us to have any consistency stopping the pass. On the other hand, if something’s not working we should be trying something different which is obviously not happening. Even if we change things, this comes back to the vicious cycle, we probably don’t have the talent to execute a different defensive scheme.
Something has to change so I won’t be surprised to see coaches go, but it’s not an easy decision to make based on the injuries and lack of talent depth they’ve had to work with.
What do you change when 5 of your top 6 DB's are out?
What adjustments can you possibly make to cover that problem?
Considering....
…. the decimated secondary, what are the alternative schemes that would be effective with the players that are starting today? No matter what the scheme, it ain’t gonna work with these horses. Buddy Ryan wouldn’t succeed with these guys.
How much Tampa 2 was run yesterday? Isn’t that a zone defense? Seemed like we blitzed some and there was a whole lot of man coverage.
and everytime they went into tampa 2 zone they got burned
by tuckingfenpin on Dec 5, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe....
… those times when the corner got burned looking for safety help over-the-top the corners thought it was Tampa 2, but the safeties didn’t? Honestly, with the horrible execution, it wasn’t entirely clear what the scheme was.
And that, my friend, is why Pagac needs to say bye-bye.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Also
our linebackers are terrible in assisting with the coverage. Our d-front actually did a good job yesterday of containing that whatever you call it offense that Denver runs. So basically we were daring them to beat us with Tebow’s arm, and in doing so the lack of talent back there was exposed (again). Even healthy we need some up upgrades back there, but you’re correct. Bud Ryan would have a stroke about our talent level.
3-4
It’s way too late in the season. I am not a fan of the tampa 2 and hope the vikes make some offseason changes. If the change is made to a 3-4, Gerald Allen has shown the ability to be decent in coverage so trading him is unnecessary (plus he is a fan favorite).
I don't think that's right
He’s been fine dropping in coverage in the occasional blitz package.
I don’t think he’s shown that you can rely on him to cover the TE consistently.
I'm all for dumping the Tampa 2
but two things: 1. Frazier won’t do it, and 2. I don’t think we have the talent on defense to run ANY defensive scheme effectively at this point.
And just getting rid of Pagac isn’t going to do it, unless we hire a really talented DC with a proven record like the Dom Capers or Wade Phillips of the NFL. And I can’t really see that happening either. If we got lucky and came up with the next Capers or Phillips, we still need more talent. Currently, we don’t have a starting quality DB and it’s a passing league now, so that’s not a great place to start.
We had all better get used to Frazier as HC though, as Zygi isn’t going to drop him and pay three HCs at once. Although we NEED to make several moves in the front office and on the coaching staff, I would be surprised if anything other than some token move were made (Pagac fired for instance). I think we’re in a holding pattern until Wilf gets his freakin stadium. And how likely is that to happen when you’re team is one of the NFL’s worst? It’s an awful catch 22 we’re stuck in here.
Steve Spagnuolo
would be an awesome candidate for the DC job. Especially because he’ll most likely get canned after this year. And i agree about not having good personnel, it’s horrible. I think that the only move we’ll make coaching or front office wise will be on the defensive staff side of the ball. Wilf announced he’s making no front office or coaching changes unless Leslie wants them, and considering that Leslie has already taken some duties from Pagac, I doubt he sticks around after this year.
"Like I said, I don’t think anybody on this team knows what schism is, let alone could use it in a sentence. I thought it was an STD when I first heard it. And I was like whoa, we preach abstinence around these parts." - Jared Allen
Steve Spagnuolo
I agree with getting Spagnuolo but you better get him at least 2 CB’s and 2 Sfty’s through the combonation of free agency and the draft. We also need at least one more mobile LB for the MLB spot.
#2 is right
I really don’t know what scheme you can run and have it work with this crew.
Reality Check
People! Plz realize that this year is nothing more than a test ground for some guys who were non-starters….winning games is just an after thought…it won’t get us anywhere. We need to play what we got and seperate out the chaff. Even the coaches are not “starting NFL talent” . At the end of the year we gotta slash and burn in a big way and then rebuild…no two ways about it. The secondary has been second rate for years now…now they are old AND second rate….How many rebuilt old knees can you put in a backfield? The good new is that Ponder IS learning and Gerhart IS a good back…..Gerhardt & J Allen are good talent in trade bait to instantly get a starting backfield and some REAL OL talent for AP…..and that is the bitter truth.
Need more talent all around
I think one of the clear indicators of how the Cover 2 has failed is when you look at Darren Sharper and how he did with the Saints. He was too old and slow to play here and then he went and helped the Saints win the SB with one more great year. He’s still the last playmaker we had a Safety. I agree we need to scrap this Defense, find a new DC, and get 2-3 new DB’s. This is a tall order for 1 off-season.
i pointed this out in another thread, but...
the Cover-2 Zone is the issue, IMO. every single huge play Denver had yesterday (at least four come to mind) came against our awful zone coverage.
i wouldn’t abandon the Cover-2 system completely, but i’d like to see us in a Cover-2 Man, and assess our personnel, as well as draft, according to that blueprint.
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Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Completely agree
for what we want to do on defense cover 2 is really good, the problem with playing zone coverage is every QB in the league knows where there is going to be a seam. Man coverage would be ideal but we need much, much better players to do that… griffin would be so bad I am already having nightmares
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
It's not the scheme
It’s the talent. The Vikings simply do not field an NFL caliber secondary right now. Don’t know how simpler to say it.
the problem i have is that teams have won and can win with the tampa 2 scheme. and if i remember right the tampa scheme is predicated on keeping things in front of you, no big plays. well that failed miserably yesterday, so if the scheme is valid (i think it is because teams can and still are winning with it) then it is the personnel. we need to retool that secondary, plain and simple.
The big problem with the Tampa-2
You rely on the other team screwing up. When the plan is tackling after the catch, you count on poor throwing and dropped passes to make your defensive stops. It’s pretty good against the run (usually!) but poor against the pass.
Change is good, and needed,
but we’ve got to stick with the 4-3 until we can pick up decent corners, otherwise we will be giving up even more yards through the air and on the ground. Not to mention that we have two potential (JA is pretty much a lock though) pro bowl DE’s on our line right now.
"Let's go our there, and stick our fists through their ribcages, rip our their hearts, eat them, and sh!t them back out on the field!!" - Blue Mountain State
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 5, 2011 1:48 PM CST reply actions
What's the issue with Frazier?
As I’m reading it, it would appear your issues are aimed at places other than the head coach. Let me elaborate:
1. Tampa 2 Scheme: Is this on Frazier or Pagac? We never had an issue with it when Frazier was running the scheme, in fact, we had a dominate defense. He hands the reins over to Pagac, and suddenly we suck?
2. Injuries in the secondary: Is this on Frazier? I mean, we’ve lost FIVE of our best players in the secondary. That’s one more than would be starting. There just isn’t anyone left in FA to fill that many holes, and who would we trade to find replacements? Our depth across the whole team is suspect to begin with. This is partly on Frazier as we blew our FA budget on McNabb and drafted poorly, but our depth issue is also partly on Childress for setting us up with limited depth. We have to give Frazier at least 1 more year to try to clean up the mess Chilly left us. Give Frazier some time to bring in some talent before writing him off in this department.
Those are the only two things mentioned, really. And I’d argue that neither one is on Frazier. I have my issues with Frazier too (as I’ve written in the past), but I’m willing to give him another year to get things sorted out, have a real off-season and hit the ground running in 2012.
Speaking of scheme, changing to 3-4 is definitely not something we need to do, and I think it’s an idiotic suggestion based on the personnel we have. I’m not in a place to discuss the differences between 4-3 or 3-4, but I can tell you that we don’t have the players for 3-4 right now. Jared Allen wouldn’t thrive in that system, and we lack a huge NT to clog the middle. Assuming EJ is done in the middle, we’re 1-2 LB short for the 3-4. Seeing as how we have many more pressing needs in the secondary, I don’t think we can afford to fill those holes AND fill the needs of a new scheme.
SKOL Vikings!
i disagree with frazier running it.
tomlin ran it the best this decade . if frazier ran it so well then we win it all in 2k9.frazier used horrible clock managment . calling a time out with 2:07 in first half . doesnt save a clock stoppage. clock stops on possesion change and at 2 minute warning. at 207 they punt we get ball back at 2 min warning and waste 2 clock stops.then in second half with 2;25 he doesnt call time and wastes the clock stop on change of possesion.our team has never hired a head coach who has nfl head coaching exp and we wonder why we are 1 nfl champ and no superbowls. we are training a coach franchise and doomed by it.
Agreed about clock management
But Mr. Gates doesn’t complain about that. It’s been a chronic issue. I would also point to 4th and short situations. He always seems decisive, and has made the wrong decision in those instances the majority of the time. Again, Mr. Gates doesn’t complain about that. Those are some of my issues with him thus far. But the two mentioned in this article have little to do with Frazier IMO.
SKOL Vikings!
I said there would be more than one part
And that’s what the next part is going to deal with.
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by Christopher Gates on Dec 5, 2011 8:08 PM CST up reply actions
Good!
To my mind, those things are more concerning regarding his skills as a head coach. Clock management and 4th down decisions are something that every coach should have learned in Coaching 101. It’s fundamental to managing a game.
SKOL Vikings!
It does save us a few seconds actually
If they let the clock run to the 2 minute warning, we get the ball back at 1:54 or less. By calling it when he did, we got it at the 2 minute warning. Now, whether it’s better to have the time or the timeout is debatable, but the math was sound.
I don't see the connection
Between not having the talent to execute our current scheme, and changing to a different scheme for which we do not have the talent.
That is, how does switching to 3-4 help make up for a terrible d-backs? And even if it does (which I don’t think so), does it help enough to make up for the fact that we definitely don’t have a guy who can play the nose in a 3-4 and we don’t have the extra linebacker?
A bit confused....
First, I heard that Frasier was taking over the duties for most of the defense so while I think Pagac is probably gone after the year I don’t see all the hate going on now.
Secondly, Most of the posters here have been saying they would like to see the younger players and that’s pretty much what we got a look at on defense given all the injuries. There might just be a good reason we haven’t seen these guys on the field. (they can’t play). Again I don’t see the hate here as we should know they young players just aren’t all that good right now.
Regarding the Tampa 2
Only two Super-Bowls have been won by teams running this scheme. Tampa Bay which had Gruden against his old team and an unbelievable insight on what plays the Raiders would be running based off formations. Indianapolis which had Peyton Manning and was playing a team that had something named Rex Grossman as its starting QB. The Tampa 2 is shit! It is time to change philosophies.
by FLSKOLMAN on Dec 5, 2011 2:25 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Except Chicago was also running a Tampa-2 defense in that Super Bowl
Also, the defense is only about 10-15 years old, and has never been as wide spread as some other schemes, so it’s not really fair to compare it based on number of Super Bowl victories.
The system works. It just requires the right personnel, like every other defensive scheme ever conceived.
I have to say it's kind of amusing when the dumpster fire we all saw coming actually happens and people start panicking.
See that’s the wrong attitude. This team has been mismanaged for years now we are just seeing the fruition of it. Relax, we all knew this was going to be a rough year. Blaming Pagac because we have a secondary made up of second and third stringers is ridiculous. You want to know why you say so much busted coverage? Because two of the guys playing weren’t on our team three weeks ago and the other two are rookies. Suddenly it’s not so hard to see why our coverage isn’t seamless.
So our secondary sucks. Duh. Our offense however has shown moments of hope and that’s a bonus for sure. Anyways, none of that really matters. Coaching isn’t like driving a car you can’t turn the wheel and see immediate gains (often) It’s a slower situation than that Frazier, Musgrave and Pagac need time to get players who can make plays in the positions we need them. Many times have I heard announcers, sports writers, bloggers state it’s not the play but the execution that is currently killing the Vikings.
So yeah the team is a disaster right now, remember what Cutler said when they were talking about keeping Martz in Chicago. Good teams need a solid base, we’re still building ours lets not over react and break what we are so diligently trying to build.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Dec 5, 2011 2:37 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I'm not used to you being a voice of reason Grime,
but I agree with you. We knew our secondary was weak at the beginning of the season, and since then we have lost 2 starters and Tyrell Johnson. For some reason the absence of possibly losing playing time to Johnson caused Jamarca Sanford to morph into a blind smurf. So we’ve actually lost 3 starters (Sanford and Johnson combined = 1). Oh yeah and we lost a backup who became a starter in Asher Allen.
From the first game we heard that players were out of position and trying to do things outside of the scheme. No doubt, our team suffered badly from the shortened off-season. Still, we have found our QBOTF, we should be able to land solid talent in April, and next year Frasier & Co will have all off-season activities and a full training camp to evaluate and indoctrinate. By the end of this campaign we may lose 12 games by less than 7 points. As bad as 2-14 is, we’re closer than that record would indicate.
exactly
More man coverage — Frazier has been doing everything he can the whole time to do this.
If we’re going to trade anyone, trade Robison. He isn’t a good fit for our defense, but he would be great for an AFC team running a 3-4. We can get a draft pick for him. Everson Griffin can take over at LDE.
Keep ALL of our DBs. Bring them all back to camp, draft a couple more, and sign a free agent. Replace the DBs coach and install the man coverage stuff we need from day 1. Keep the best players and move forward.
Mistral Raymond is going to be great. He needs strength training first.
I was very, very pleased with the Broncos game. With no Adrian Peterson, and with a defense suffering complete breakdowns, the Vikings hung in there enough to come within two plays of winning the game over the AFC West-leading Broncos.
We are very lucky to have Christian Ponder. Let ESPN talk about what a wonder Tim Tebow is, hitting wide receivers who have 20 yards of daylight in any direction, and taking 10 pass attempts per game. By the time Tebow learns the position he will be an old man. Meanwhile our guy learned two huge lessons in his INTs, showed incredible leadership and guts in playing with a hip injury, threw over 40 times, gained a lot more experience, and is whistling passes into tiny windows already at this stage in his career.
I am really glad of how Frazier is handling all this. He is doing it right and the Vikings are slowly building a great Super Bowl championship team.
I don't know if anybody would want to pay robison as much as we do
But I totally think Griffin can play better than B Rob. I wish he was starting, he looks stronger and faster. But frazier’s always gotta make the right decisions 3 weeks too late.
I have to agree with you I was pretty happy about the offense
And I think we need to keep most of our secondary as we don’t have anyone to replace them and honestly these have been some pretty tough circumstances. I don’t really agree with man coverage. From what I’ve seen in the last couple of draft Frazier has been looking for CB’s that are better in zone than man to man coverage. That was actually stated about Cook multiple times when he was being drafted.
I just don’t think we have the personnel to be hitting up man to man right now.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
A Disaster?
First, while I know that Les II is a rookie HC, even for a rookie HC, he sucks. The team’s record speaks for itself. Sure, it takes time to turn a ship around and maybe Les will grow into the Big Boy Shoes one day, but having an HC-in-training at the expensive of the team is not my idea of ‘fun’. My guess is that it’s because Wilf doesn’t want to pay a lot more money into a team that he’s not sure he’s going to keep, and Les II is cheaper than bringing in a real HC with proven success under his belt.
The secondary is shot up. Hell, the whole team is running on empty, it’s amazing that we stayed in the game at all. There’s real talent on this Viking team, but they need a few things to put to good use. A good coaching staff, more practice, and better conditioning. Right now I don’t think they have any of those things, and I don’t see where anything is going to improve between now and this time next year except that maybe the coaching might improve as Les II gets more experience. They won’t get any more practice, and they’ll be in the same state of physical conditioning that they are now because that’s the Viking’s system and Les II will continue with it. So we’ll continue to see lousy tackling fundimentals and a D that’s huffing and puffing by the 3rd Q, just as they’ve been doing since 2008.
I’ve always loathed the Tampa-2, but it does take real speed and ability to play man-coverage in the NFL today. The Vikings can’t even pull off zone coverage right now, so what can you do. At least there’s warm bodies in the backfield, might cause some confusion in the opposition QBs.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Heres the thing.
We need two new saftiesthats the bottom line. Probably one threw F/A and the draft. We also need 2 new CB’s one through F/A and draft. We definately nedd a NT to stuff the run and can get a push up the middle either through the F/A or draft. Also I think our rookies get a pass because they did not have the mini camps and true preseason. Get rid of the folowing players. Sfty’s Abdullah,T. Johnson, Keep Sanford and Raymond. CB’s get rid of Griffin, Allen. Keep Sapp or Winfield and the rookies Sherrels, Burton. The F/A CB i would go after would be Brandon Carr. The F/A S Jaron Landry. I would then draft Stephon Gilmore CB from S.C. I would then try Mystral Raymond at free safety and also draft Robert Lester S from Alabama in the third round. Granted we will take our lumps but these guys might suoprise you and jell. Oh yeah get rid of the cover two scheme it does not work.
Sanford has regressed
He’s never been a great cover guy but has always been a solid, physical tackler – until now. In the 2nd half he was waving at guys as they ran past him like he was playing flag football. I don’t know if the lack of talent around him has gotten to him, but he’s not even serviceable any more. I think Wasswa Serwanga could make this team. (he’s a banker for JP Morgan now).
The Tampa 2 WAS a useful defense.
Now, the other team knows the holes in the zone better than we do. It’s been schemed and gameplanned to death.
What’s more, it doesn’t account for the changes in rules. When the Tampa 2 started to become popular, it was alright to play soft zones, because the rules allowed for corners and safeties to close and punish receivers for going over the middle, and more contact in general.
Now, there’s no room for contact with receivers, and unless you play a lot of tight man, even average NFL QBs cut the defense up.
But to be fair, the Tampa 2 as Dungy coached it was ‘never’ as soft and unimaginative as Frazier/Pugac coach it. Dungy would sense Barber off the corner, and was fairly imaginative with it on the Vikes too. Tomlin coached it with more steel as well. The way Frazier coaches it, the thing basically runs like an all-game prevent defense.
SO we have no chance of making the playoffs...........
so why WOULDN’T you play our inexperienced CB’s? Better to play them now and give them some actual game experience to see how many, if any of them are worth keeping going into camp next year.
Promoting SIngletary to DC? Really, you can’t be serious. Am I the only one who has noticed an actual decline in the play of our LB’s from last year to this season?
Tampa 2 never seems to be effective unless you have a seasoned veteran safety on the field, notice we don’t have one!!!
by Sixmark on Dec 5, 2011 7:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
We were howling about the secondary then too.
Our corners were good, yes. But I can remember more than one time we sat mouth agape at split safeties. The 09 offense covered lots of defensive shortcomings.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 6, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
Tampa 2
Only works with fierce pass rush. The Mike LB must drop into coverage. This Defense became fashionable prior to NCAA basketball players becoming NFL TEs. Brian Urlacher is not at Winter Park. The type of athlete needed to make the system work is nowhere on the the Vike Roster. Henderson with his multiple surgeries cant be that guy. The DLine has to be great for the system to work. The window is closed on the defensive talent on the team.
In defense of Frazier and Pagac, and the 4-3
The only advantage of 4-3 over 3-4 or 3-4 over 4-3 is personnel. If you have more personnel for 3-4 (linebackers who can blitz) than go with it. If you don’t have the very large defensive linemen or the blitzing linebackers, stay with the 4-3.
We don’t have the personnel for 3-4.
New England has switched back to 4-3 base and they rarely run 3-4 anymore. This is because there are now about 15 teams that run the 3-4 and 3-4 personnel are hard to come by.
Now on to defensive backs.
Frazier and Pagac have always had it exactly right. They have been planning on more man coverage and less Cover 2. That was their plan from Day 1.
Have people even been paying attention?
Our DBs are flat-out injured. They can’t play the man. We don’t have Winfield. We didn’t have a full training camp to install everything.
I think the DB coach needs to be seriously evaluated, however. How long has Joe Woods been coaching Jamarca Sanford and the other guys and they can’t play the basic Cover 2 scheme? Too long for any excuses.
You want to make Singletary D-Coordinator? I like the guy but the linebackers have not been helped by him this year. Singletary has been ruining Greenway. Erin Henderson has upped his play enough to be OK but I can’t give Singletary credit for that as that was Erin Henderson’s hard work paying off.
Cedric Griffin is going to need more time to rehab and he’ll be fine. Knee surgeries take two years to heal from. His first knee injury was in January 2010. The second came in 2011. He won’t be back to 100% until Fall 2013. Until then, patience. And yes, consider moving him to safety.
We need to keep all of our DBs. We need to bring them all back to camp and give them a chance to work with a new defensive backs coach.
We need to gut our entire secondary.
Winfield is probably going to be cut because that would save about $7 mill against the cap next year. His body is starting to break down because of his small stature and how hard he plays, and we don’t need anymore 5’9 corners in a league in which most receivers are over 6’ . Griffin needs to go. He’s lost a step and he was never great to begin with. Safety is a TOTAL LOSS! Every one of them needs to be replaced.
by FLSKOLMAN on Dec 5, 2011 10:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
On Winfield
Yes, I can see trading him, as he has been injured a lot over the past couple of years. He might hang up his cleats after a great career.
Everybody else, definitely bring back to training camp.
I’m not saying bring them all to the final roster necessarily. But bring them to training camp, develop them, and give them a shot.
Greenway has always been overrated
or as my Dad likes to call him – Chadway….
He may have a lot of tackles but he gets run over a lot and is just terrible in coverage.
EJ is a sad story, as much as I like the guy he isn’t at the same level he use to be however his brother has stepped up quite a bit if you ask me. Out of our current set of LB they will obviously keep Greenway because they don’t want to eat another contract Erin Henderson and I hope Jasper Brinkley will be able to join us next year and relieve EJ of his duties.
Now the DBs… bring them all back-?
I highly doubt that switching coordinators will make them any better, they are just bad no way around it – that is years of neglect to our secondary by the previous coaching staff
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
You misinterpreted what Frazier, Cover 2 is fine
Cover 2 is fine, just look at the bears, we just don’t have the personnel to run it , we dont really have a cover mlb and we got no corners.
“We were just playing a basic coverage with a lead,” Frazier said. "To not be able to execute that is a bad thing, because it means you can’t play any coverage. …
means that if they cant execute the simple things, shows how bad these corners are, It was because we were playing against Tebow, just terrible
It was Sanford who missed his assignment on two of the big three passes from Tebow. The question is why he missed it.
I think it was coaching.
On the third play, I have no idea who was at fault. Tebow did well keeping the play alive, but some Viking in coverage completely wasn’t there.
That is not reason to give up on Cedric Griffen, who will be much healthier next year, and fully healed in 2013. Nor is it reason to give up on Brandon Burton, who played very well and is a rookie. Nor is it a reason to give up on Mistral Raymond, who did very well yesterday, despite needing strength training. It is no reason to give up on Asher Allen, who is still developing. Benny Sapp came in and did just great.
Mostly our secondary played terrific against Denver. There were several plays, however in which they got burned. We can fix it.
The defensive line needs a new nose tackle. After Pat Williams declined in 2010 and then retired, our group just hasn’t been the same.
I'm not really a believer in the 'vaunted' Bears defense either.
It’s quite overrated, in truth, and has been for years.
Now Briggs and Urlacher are great, yes. But the actual stats on the defense has been NFL average, as often as not.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 6, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
I like Frazier
I know a lot of people don’t but he has faced a lot more adversity than the typical rookie HC.
1. He is taking over for Childress
2. New host of coordinators and position coaches
3. A lot of roster turn over – much younger much more inexperienced
4. No training camp
Just to name a few of the more important issues here
Sure he has bad clock management, but I have seen a lot of times where it is on the players. No one on the field quite knows what the hell they are doing when we are in a time crunch and we have to burn a timeout. But how many of you who want Frazier fired also think Ponder is the QBOTF he just needs more time to work out the kinks? Seems like the same logic should apply to Frazier then yeah?
Sorry if it sounds a little harsh, just like to think about it from a different angle instead of throwing Frazier under the bus
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
by Grape Drank on Dec 5, 2011 11:32 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Harbaugh had no training camp.
And he turned the 49ers into an elite team. So toss #4, I’m tired of hearing that excuse. He was the interim coach last season, and he’s running essentially the same defensive scheme that sucked last season (and before, to be honest). I’d give you some excuse for #4 on offense, where there’s a new system. But not defense. And in any case, it doesn’t excuse lack of progress ‘during’ the season.
- is also irrelevant. He had half of last season to undo the train wreck, and didn’t.
- & 3 would account for some issues. But not for a defense that’s LESS athletic for having gotten younger, and for a general lackadaisical attitude to defense and special teams, where people should be fighting for their jobs.
And no, the same logic doesn’t apply to Frazier as Ponder. Ponder came in midseason ‘this’ year, with the team already tanked. Frazier is the guy responsible for the train wreck. You’re comparing a guy who got on the train mid-route to the conductor of the whole mess.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 6, 2011 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
Well I could argue but you seem set in your ways
Just think you are being way to critical of a first year coach who has had to take on such a bad team. Although I will point out Ponder has been a Viking since the beginning of the season and he came in after five games that is not even a third of the season
you play to WIN THE GAME, that's the great thing about sports
The season was already in the trash
when Ponder became the starter.
The Head Coach has a say in what coordinators, coaches, and personnel are brought in. So no, I don’t give Leslie a free pass for not examining why McNabb failed in Washington more seriously. Or failing to upgrade the safety position (which is only the most important position in the Cover 2). Or failing to acquire a run-stuffing tackle to replace Pat. Or for thinking that Asher Allen was an NFL CB, all evidence to the contrary.
And let’s be clear. Leslie was the DC before this. ALL of these problems ought to have been on his radar, and he let them go untouched, unaddressed, and then acts surprised when the defense stinks. This isn’t a ‘new coach with a new system.’ This is the same coach, as far as the defense is concerned, with the same exact system. I’ll give him a pass on the offensive side, because there we are making schematic changes. But no, patting him on the back and saying ’it’s OK your defense sucks’ is rubbish. That OUGHT to be locked down. Or at least ought to have been before the injuries.
Unacceptable.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 7, 2011 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
I know, it sounds bad
…and maybe it’s just me throwing damage control into my own strong emotions this year, but I’m having more fun watching these games that we are losing than I was watching us in, say, 2007 & 2008, when we were winning. It was like watching paint dry during those years. We just had such a solid defense that it kept us in games and every now and then TJoke did just enough to get us a W. The end result was still either just BARELY missing the playoffs or stumbling into the playoffs and then getting our asses beat.
Oh…and young Mr. Peterson was also carrying the offense on his back, which helped.
I don’t know. I think the foundation of an exciting young team is forming- and that seems to be starting to rest on the shoulders of guys like Ponder, Harvin, and Rudolph.
We are 2-10. The worst start in 51 years of existence, likely to end the season with the worst record ever for the purple and gold. Yet, how is it possible I still see a light at the end of the dark tunnel? Because I do. Hopefully that light at the end of the tunnel isn’t an oncoming train. ;)
I want to see what Frazier and co. can do with more time. I’m willing to give them that. Then again, if we are 2-10 this time next year I’ll possibly be smashing beer bottles against my head and cursing through the blood running down my face.
We need a real GM though. We also need a new damn home (in MN!)… but one thing at a time.
on a side note (and this isn’t directed to anyone here in particular, just something I’ve noticed on multiple Vikings/sports fansites and blogs): I wish people would stop talking about trading two of the only damn players this year that I have kicked ass consistently from game 1. Peterson and Allen. That’s crazy talk. I know people are trying to think ‘strategically’, but these guys are more than just all pro performers that we can get a bunch of draft picks/free agents for. They are the current face of the Vikings. They are an identity. They are more important to us than the already stellar talent they play with on the field. They are two of the primary reasons I drag my hungover ass out of bed on Sunday mornings, wrestle into whatever clothes I can find, and suffer through whatever classless mocking I have to endure wearing Vikings gear at a sports pub that’s dominated by bandwagon jumping Packers and Saints fans.
SKOL!
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Dec 6, 2011 8:44 AM CST reply actions
Your tired of people talking about trading Allen and AD?
then how about we trade Ponder!
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Trading Allen or AD
Actually, if I believed that Spielman could trade either of them, and get more than one average starter out of whatever people and draft picks he got, I would say ‘yes, go for it’.
But that’s not what would happen. In return, we’d get an average start, and a bunch of draft picks that Spielman would use to bring in more scrubs. So no. Keep what we have.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
exactly.
I have little to no faith that the return investment would be worth it.
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Dec 6, 2011 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
Any player (in theory) is tradeable.
In practice, there’s no deal Allen, AD, or Harvin would draw that would merit the cost of moving them.
Perhaps Kevin Williams might draw the right price. But I don’t think so.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 7, 2011 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
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