Narrowing Stadium Options in Minneapolis, Sort Of
Sunday there was another Minnesota Vikings game and another loss. It's largely the same tale of missed opportunities and under-performance. I don't feel like writing an article about it--it makes me want to heave. Luckily for me, the Vikings' stadium situation is always good for material. Unfortunately, it also makes me want to heave, but I had to write something.
Last month lawmakers advised the city of Minneapolis to decide on a single site for a proposed Vikings' stadium rather than continuing to promote three sites (Metrodome, Farmers Market, and near the Basilica). So, after time and consideration, Minneapolis settled on the idea they originally presented to the Vikings almost half a year ago. Minneapolis has chosen to focus their efforts on building a new Vikings stadium on the Metrodome site. Yup, Minneapolis' plan is Retrodome--again.
Reviewing this latest twist in the Vikings' stadium quest after the jump.
Back in May, this idea, not developed with the Vikings, had the unfortunate timing to have been unveiled just a day before the Vikings unveiled a proposal to build a stadium on the TCAAP property in Arden Hills and partner with Ramsey County. Until that announcement, the suburban Ramsey County site was considered by many observing the stadium situation to be a long-shot at best, with Minneapolis perceived as the obvious location for a new stadium. Turns out Minneapolis had more competition from Arden Hills than observers thought.
The Vikings said they chose to partner with Ramsey County and build in Arden Hills because they felt the government-owned TCAAP location could provide fans with the best game day experience. A retractable roof would bring back outdoor football, and 20,000 parking spaces would bring back the tailgating tradition Vikings' fans used to have at the old Met Stadium in Bloomington. According to the proposal, building on a large hill on the property, a new stadium would have views of both Minneapolis and St. Paul, just 10 miles from both downtown areas. Not only would building on the TCAAP property develop one of the largest undeveloped parcels of land in Ramsey County, but it would also provide an opportunity to clean up the largest Super Fund site in Minnesota and require negotiating for the land with a single owner.
This decision, though the most thought-out proposal in terms of the team's desires for revenue and fan experience (because it's the only proposal that was developed with the Vikings), has met with political hurdles since being announced. It has been hard to read about the Vikings' struggles to advance the Arden Hills site without feeling the sneaking suspicion that the supposedly site-neutral governor, Mark Dayton, and various Minneapolis interests would make the Vikings' lives much easier if the team would just simply see the error of their ways and agree to a Minneapolis stadium location.
The thing I don't understand though is that if Minneapolis is so determined to woo the Vikings away from Arden Hills, then why have they decided to focus on the current Metrodome location? Of the Minneapolis locations, the Metrodome seemed the least likely to appeal to the Vikings.
After the Metrodome roof collapsed in December 2010, the Vikings scrambled to find locations for their final home games of the season, playing in Detroit at Ford Field and on the University of Minnesota campus at TCF Bank Stadium. In addition to the costs involved in making both Ford Field and TCF their "home" fields, the Vikings lost revenues they would have had at the Metrodome. That experience gave the team a good estimate of just how much revenue they stand to lose if they play their home games at TCF Bank Stadium rather than at the Metrodome while a new stadium is under construction at the Metrodome site. Losing game day revenue affects the team's ability to raise money to pay for its portion of the cost of a new stadium. So, building a new facility at the current Metrodome site represents a loss of revenue for the team at a time when maximizing revenue is of key importance--an odd way to persuade the team that Minneapolis is a better location.
Of the Minneapolis sites, the Metrodome location was the smallest of the three options. Not only that, but the area around the Metrodome is already developed, meaning there is little to no additional room for stadium expansion. It's hard to fathom how that site would afford the team the opportunity to enhance the fans' game-day experience through expanded tailgating near the stadium. It also seems unlikely that the Vikings would have the space for a team museum, something the team was hoping to establish.
Time and again since May, the Vikings have said that a plan involving the current Metrodome site is a non-starter, so why would Minneapolis city leadership decide to promote that site as the single Minneapolis stadium option? The only thing that makes sense to me is that it comes down to money and speed.
The Minneapolis sites at the Farmers Market and near the Basilica, although more capable of offering the fan experience the team favors, both would involve negotiating property sales with multiple owners. That can be time consuming, expensive, and a potential public relations nightmare if it becomes a battle of eminent domain with owners who oppose moving. The Metrodome does not present that challenge.
Because the Metropolitan Sports Facility Commission (MSFC) already owns the land that the Metrodome is on, it would eliminate the need to negotiate the sale of property and the uncertainty that could bring. It would also allow a Minneapolis site to avoid having to go through the site feasibility study Arden Hills was subject to (administered by the MSFC and the Metropolitan Council), since the site already supports a stadium. Any site study would take time, making it a challenge to bring the proposal before the state legislature in January.
When Ramsey County reached an agreement with the federal government on a sale price for the TCAAP property that included the cost of cleaning up the pollution on the site, it provided an advantage to the Arden Hills site that had seemed stalled after a county-wide sales tax increase was nixed. In going with a site that doesn't require any land acquisition costs or a site feasibility study, it would appear that the city of Minneapolis is trying to regain its lost momentum. And, while there is very little about the Metrodome site that would appeal to the Vikings, given the team's goals for a stadium site, it could be that this site choice has little to do with the Vikings and everything to do with making a stadium bill more palatable to Minneapolis-based political power in the state because the Metrodome site is cheap and is in Minneapolis.
So what are the Vikings to do? Cave to the pressure and agree to the Retrodome proposal in order to stay in Minnesota, or pray for a miracle and continue to pursue Arden Hills?
Here's an idea that won't be adopted, but one that makes me smile. Since the cost of acquiring the TCAAP property and cleaning up the pollution there has already been agreed upon between Ramsey County and the federal government, the Vikings could buy the property outright and build the cheaper open-air stadium they have favored from the beginning. Since the cost of an open-air stadium is significantly less than a roofed stadium (some have said a roof adds between $200-300 million to the stadium cost), the Vikings might be able to raise the cost of a stadium privately, the way the Dallas Cowboys did. As long as the Vikings are seeking public funds, they are going to be accountable and beholden to the state government. But if the Vikings work with Ramsey County and self-finance, then they can build the stadium they originally wanted, where they wanted it, and Minneapolis can go fly a kite.
Should be interesting to see how this issue progresses. And where it progresses.
Note: Since writing this, it has been reported on KSTP 5 Eyewitness News that other Minneapolis sites are still vying for the team. Apparently, the Minnesota Twins favor a Vikings stadium at the Minneapolis Farmers Market site. It would seem Minneapolis isn't as settled on a location as Mayor R.T. Rybak has suggested.
125 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Why can't
Minneapolis get that they are broke and doing this is just taking up time and people all just want the glory of having the team. THEY ALREADY CHOSE ARDEN HILLS!
by PurplePrideforLife! on Dec 7, 2011 6:16 AM CST reply actions
I know.... Same ol song
Makes the other deal (arden hills) so much better!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Dec 7, 2011 7:23 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Who's they?
The people who want government money that needs Government approval?
I get that you like Arden Hills
But what’s your excuse for not doing your research? The Strib wants to sell five square blocks adjacent to the dome, of which three are entirely undeveloped surface lots, and two more have small buildings but are mostly undeveloped surface lots. How is that "already developed?
With all due respect amiller92
five square blocks isn’t squat compared to what could happen out in Arden Hills! (I do understand the key word here is “could” – but still.
Big difference from about 20 acres (whatever 5 lots come out to)
and the roughly 2,000 acres wilf will have to develop all the parking, lodging, convenience stores, restaurants, museum. Zygi will not only be able to plan the stadium he’s looking for, he’s going to be able to plan the ENTIRE gameday experience. Personally, I would rather hand the keys over to Zygi to make the best out of the location as opposed to building downtown where the stadium situation and frankly, the ideas are very limited. Sure, it’s going to make Zygi bank to get it done in Arden Hills. I’m fine with that. He’s been a great owner so far and he’s stuck it out this long.
White Horn Gold Pants
I didn't say it was the same
It obviously isn’t. The arsenal is huge.
But it isn’t true that all the space around the dome is developed. The Strib site (25 acres) the current dome site (20 acres) and adjacent land that the Vikings already own adds up to 50 acres that are ripe for development. That’s less space, but it’s also potentially more lucrative space because it’s downtown.
And the mayor is talking about doing something with the Armory, which is right across the street from the Strib site, which is another opportunity, although I assume they have to maintain much of the old structure, so it’s probably pretty limited.
Covering cow turds in chocolate icong doesn't make it a chocolate cake
The current site+the strib site+the armory (which is protected by law) has nothing over the Arden Hills site.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 7, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
icing*
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 7, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't call
The potential to actually get passed though the legislature “nothing.”
In fact, if done right, it has the potential to have everything Arden Hills has except a bunch of extra space to put stuff that isn’t stadium-related.
amiller92?
Have you considered the opposite of your thesis that the Minneapolis site is our chance to get something through the legislature? The dome site is so poor that the Vikings may once again reject it, get fed up, and move to another city.
What good is a site, if despite passing the legislature, it minimizes potential revenue and you remain non-competetive? I will tell you. You move to where you can be competitive. It is not a given that any plan, just because it passes, is acceptable. Only a good plan. I do not not see Ziggy investing $400+ million for a plan that is a loser from the start.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Here's what we know
We know that Arden Hills is ideal from the Vikes’ perspective.
We also know that they put together a plan working with the county that assumed it could get a waiver of the referendum requirement for an added sales tax. The failure of that assumption (for a number of reasons) has killed their carefully crafted plan.
That’s it. Everything else is conjecture. What’s a good enough but not ideal plan from the Vikes perspective? I don’t know. Can they find a fix for the hole in their Arden Hills revenues? I don’t know. Even if they do, will it have broad enough political support? I don’t know.
Those are the questions people are working on now. And as fans, realizing that they can move, we should want to find yes answer for them rather than pining for the deal that’s already blown up. All that matters to me is that they stay.
Also, I get really angry when people keep bringing up this competitiveness BS. The combination of the TV money, the bulk of revenue for any NFL team, and the salary cap ensures that every team is profitable and has the money available to compete. A new stadium has NOTHING to do with being competitive on the field. You can’t spend more than the cap on players, so being more profitable doesn’t mean having more talent on the field.
The competitiveness that’s relevant is that competitiveness of the Twin Cities as a home for a NFL franchise. That is whether we have the facilities in place to make keeping a team here sufficiently highly profitable that the owners won’t want to move it do make more money elsewhere.
Finally, you need to consider the possibility that there is something in between what the Vikings think is ideal (i.e., what makes them the absolute most money) and what’s a loser (i.e. doesn’t make them enough money to keep them from wanting to move. It’s the space between the two that is most likely to keep the team here.
You should also be confident that the Vikes’ are not going to say publicly what’s acceptable until what’s ideal is pretty clearly off the table. To me, that’s why the fans should be hopeful instead of encouraged when they hear about additional possibilities that have more to offer than just Retrodome.
If you are tired the competitive BS
and the politicians agree with that sentiment, the Vikings are as good as gone. The competition is not only on the field.
The NFL revenue subsidies of low revenue teams like the Vikings may end. And I am sure that the other teams are sick of subsidizing us because of our crappy stadium. The NFL will gladly let the Vikings leave if our new stadium is not a viable solution.
The Vikings live in the real world. Not in a a never seen “utopia” where Minneapolis deems what is best for the entire state.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Well that was nicely non-responsive
But yeah, at least you got to vent, right?
You did not respond
to the NFL subsidy issue. You have not responded to the Vikings option to leave. You have not responded to the limited revenue potential in Minneapolis. In your scenario the Vikes would lose millions in revenue by having to play at TCF on campus while the site is under construction. You have not responded to that.
You keep comparing the new Minneapolis site to the current site. You do not compare it to Arden Hills because the this site is far superior. Your argument seems to be based on urban renewal only.
And I brought up issues that you characterize as venting. A nice way to avoid arguments that you are losing.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
It's not an issue
The NFL isn’t going to abandon revenue sharing. It’s worked too well for them and they are all getting rich. And everyone who doesn’t own a New York franchise can see what happens in baseball and won’t want to do that. And they sell the TV rights as a league, so trying to divide revenues from that other than equally isn’t really likely.
So, yeah, non issue.
And yes, read what I said above about the option to leave. Here, I’ll help you:
The competitiveness that’s relevant is that competitiveness of the Twin Cities as a home for a NFL franchise. That is whether we have the facilities in place to make keeping a team here sufficiently highly profitable that the owners won’t want to move it do make more money elsewhere.
Finally, you need to consider the possibility that there is something in between what the Vikings think is ideal (i.e., what makes them the absolute most money) and what’s a loser (i.e. doesn’t make them enough money to keep them from wanting to move. It’s the space between the two that is most likely to keep the team here.
And when did I say they would play in TCF? Um, perhaps never? I said they could build a stadium downtown. That could be at the Farmers Market, at Linden Ave or on the Strib parcel. None of that requires playing outside the metrodome during construction. That was the whole point of this discussion.
And yes, I never compared to Arden Hills, which is far superior when I said what I quoted above, or this:
We know that Arden Hills is ideal from the Vikes’ perspective.
Finally, I referred to you venting because what you said was non-responsive, and ignored the things I had said just above. I’ve quoted them for you now, so maybe you want to try again?
by amiller92 on Dec 7, 2011 3:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You are wrong.
The NFL subsidy can end at any time. Many owners have wanted to end it for years. You can not expect this to last forever. To categorically state that they won’t abandon it is pound foolish. Thus, it is a relevant issue.
The legislature can still waive the vote on any referendum. That is NOT a done deal.
This is NOT an urban planning issue for the Vikings. It is a business issue. The social planners (& perhaps you) should realize that. If you force feed an inferior site, you will force the Vikings to look elsewhere for another option. It is a huge gamble. A good business person always tries to maximize profits. Any Minneapolis site currently under consideration does not do that.
If you don’t understand these issues, you should go take a business course. Please respond directly to the business issues because that is what is relevant here. Not your social issues of urban renewal, mass transit and serving core downtowns. Sorry to be so blunt, but I am sick of dancing around your false issues!!!!
The Vikings followed what was asked of them. Then got kicked in the nuts because Minneapolis was not chosen. I hope the Vikings don’t leave, but after the shoddy treatment they have received, I am surprised they have not already said Bye-bye. (this last paragraph…that’s me semi-venting)
*As for your discussion about which Minneapolis site you want; I confused your comments lower in the thread with you preferring the Metrodome site. I implicitly assumed your discussion of the Strib and Armory properties to be an endorsement of the Metrodome site. (I extrapolated from that to my TCF Field comment.) I guess this is not true. But if the Metrodome site is chosen, that issue is very relevant.
Let’s hope something positive happens soon. That is the one thing we agree upon. :-)
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I’d be down with whatever the Vikings wanted if it was a least a decent site for the metro. Arden Hills just seems like a terrible spot compared to the cities.
Not just for Vikings games, but when we host a Final 4 of Super Bowl. All the rest of our stuff is connected on rail or bus rapid transit EXCEPT THE VENUE!? I think it’s worth playing hardball a bit. The league wants a team in our area, they can compromise to make it work for our cites for the next 50 years.
by fanslaststand on Dec 7, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
Odin...
…if they are issues that keep the Arden Hills from getting the political support it needs to be a reality then how are they fake issues? You can pretend that what the Vikings want is the only acceptable option, but that just isn’t true. You can be pissed about that, but it isn’t true. Politicians of both parties are making that pretty clear.
I get that many fans are annoyed that the publicly stated requirements of “local partner + funding source” turned out to have hidden “buts” attached to them. Some would argue that the Vikings were naive to what have been the traditional political realities when it comes to the stadium issue. I’d agree, but add that the folks in charge should have put any “buts” into the public conversation first. All that aside, the real issue is getting a deal done. When it comes to politics, you often have to choose the option that is possible over your ideal option. And right now, Arden Hills is NOT possible.
Neither is any other site (yet). But if another site beyond AH becomes possible moving forward then we Vikings fans have a choice. Get on board with what is possible or hold out for AH and risk the Vikings leaving.
To be clear...
…the Vikings have the same choice. If political support coalesces around another site the Vikings can hold out for things to change, move, or accept the “art of the possible” route.
They are false issues.
Not fake issues. I understand that the AH stadium might be scuttled because of these issues. They are false because they are made up issues to try to force the Vikings to stay in Minneapolis. None of these issues are in any way essential to a stadium site.
If the political option of what is possible yet unacceptable to a business, they leave. I hope it does not come to that. But the political solution may force the Vikings to go elsewhere. So to rephrase your comment, the politicians should make the AH site possible or risk the Vikings moving.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
You go off the tracks
Again, by assuming what is ideal and what’s acceptable (from a business respective!) is the same.
And your assumption that only Arden Hills is acceptable (from a business perspective!) is naive and strongly suggestive of very little experience with business or political negotiations.
Excuse me
While I go back to the Carlson School for some more classes.
Get off your horse when you can’t even read what has been written an instead make silly assumptions.
Going to the Carlson School does not ensure wisdom.
It may help, but it is far from a guaranty. I too have a college degree. So does Ziggy and his brother. So does Mayor Rybak. So does Gov. Dayton. We do not agree on the best site. Why? We come at this from different viewpoints.
I think your assumptions about the best site are every bit as silly as you think mine are.
I do not think that the AH site is ideal. There is no such thing. I think we risk the Vikings moving if they are force fed an inferior Minneapolis site. It is naive to think otherwise. Read more carefully.
I do think the AH is the best site from a business perspective. I stand by that. I also think the business perspective is easily the most important factor. An over riding factor in fact.
I have negotiated business deals for years. They include the purchase of land, equipment, supplies, contracts and leases. I have very little experience in political negotiations. Getting business permits for a light industrial plant from city hall is my extent.
Since you made assumptions about me, let me return the favor. I think you are an inexperienced, naive young person who thinks because you took a course and read a book, you know more than you really do. Hopefully you will gain wisdom from experience as you grow older. If I am wrong about you, I can live with it.
Here is hoping that we pass each other some day in a concourse of the new Vikings stadium in Minnesota… wherever it ends up being built.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Best for whose business?
I do think the AH is the best site from a business perspective. I stand by that. I also think the business perspective is easily the most important factor. An over riding factor in fact.
Best for Ziggy? Sure. Best for the wider business interests of the area? Well…it’s pretty clear that other business leaders would argue with that.
And that’s where some of the political snags come in. Ziggy thought he could propose a plan where he gets public funding and reaps the vast majority of the benefits. Obviously the pols are disagreeing with that (for a variety of reasons).
You note that you have very little experience with political negotiations. That’s not a big thing, most people are. My own experience is not practical (from direct involvement). It’s as a hobby. I find the “game” of politics to be fascinating (and maddening) and as a result I’ve become pretty familiar with a lot of the procedural and cultural elements that are involved. I also pay attention to the folks (not the politicians but folks who were closely following the Target Field process) who have seen this play out in MN before.
And what I’m taking away from this mess is that Zygi appears to be playing a very bad hand on this deal. Whether that is intentional (he feels he has leverage somehow, though he needs to figure out how to play it) or unintentional (he’s just naive to the process and the players) or some combo of the two I don’t yet know.
You correct that everyone is coming at this from different viewpoints. And I don’t argue with Zygi about his at all. That’s the best deal for him and the Vikings, no doubt. But if he is serious about getting a stadium build in Minnesota (and perhaps he really doesn’t care about the bolded part) then he needs to wise up to the fact that there isn’t a political path to achieving that goal on the AH’s site. At least not right now.
How he responds will make clear his priorities.
Not just Ziggy
Also Ramsey County and Arden Hills. Which, of course, happens to be one of the more Republican parts of a highly liberal county, within a highly liberal metro area in a slightly liberal state.
I think they really dropped the ball on the politics here. Maybe they hired Lester Bagley too late? Or I think most likely, they didn’t really understand what the influx of Tea Party-type Republicans was going to mean.
If fairness mattered in politics, they legislature would have just approved the Vikings/Ramsey County plan. They did what was asked of them, and there was nothing unreasonable about what they came up with. But politics ain’t fair.
But I don’t doubt that WIlf wants to get a stadium built in Minnesota. It’s just too early for him to break from what he really wants to start considering compromises. He needs Minneapolis and the state to offer more first, and a renovated Metrodome isn’t going to do it.
by amiller92 on Dec 8, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
YES
This -
It’s just too early for him to break from what he really wants to start considering compromises. He needs Minneapolis and the state to offer more first
Exactly. The state of MN is so stupid and this is making Dayton look like a damn fool. He’s given the Vikings fairly specific instructions as to what it will take to get this passed. The Vikings did it and now they’re backpedaling because of the Minneapolis influence. The only real hiccup in the AH plan is that those Reps are requiring a referendum and that’s not an option(timetable-wise) for the Vikes.
Back to your quote above, it’s both too early AND too late for the Vikes to start conceding portions of their plan. There isn’t a valid option in Minneapolis. Bottom line: Minneapolis has done a very good job of throwing up road blocks to the AH site and very little in coming up with a realistic plan in Minneapolis. The Metrodome site is a no-go, ever. The other sites generally involve having to spend even more money to buy out local businesses, which i disagree with anyways.
White Horn Gold Pants
Two thoughts...
The state of MN is so stupid and this is making Dayton look like a damn fool. He’s given the Vikings fairly specific instructions as to what it will take to get this passed. The Vikings did it and now they’re backpedaling because of the Minneapolis influence.
Everyone who stuck with “local partner + funding source” but is now going “yes but” does indeed look foolish. That said, it strikes me as a situation where those folks didn’t think any option outside Minneapolis was possible versus one where the Minneapolis folks are forcing a backpedal. It’s just as likely that there was an assumption that Minneapolis was where this deal was going to end up anyhow. And given the political hurdles facing the AH plan that could still be the case.
There isn’t a valid option in Minneapolis. Bottom line: Minneapolis has done a very good job of throwing up road blocks to the AH site and very little in coming up with a realistic plan in Minneapolis.
This is both true and false. The Farmer’s Market plan, properly fleshed out, would be a valid plan. And that’s the issue. Minneapolis hasn’t done the work to deliver a plan that is far enough along (or that encompasses the best site). Instead they’ve gone with half ass, multiple plans, or now possible a plan that focuses on the worst site (Dome). But if you’re claiming that a downtown stadium isn’t workable at all would be silly. It’s just not the preferred choice of the Vikings or anyone who thinks acres of tailgating lots are a requirement in the design.
I don't think that's right
That is I don’t think the assumption was that only Minneapolis could find funding, and thus people are now upset that it isn’t Minneapolis.
I think what happened is the leadership in the legislature changed, which shifted the field for what counts as “local funding.” Now “local funding” means money we can get without having to raise taxes.
Those Reps that are requiring a referendum
Or refusing to vote for a waiver, are the Tea Party Republicans with their “no new taxes” pledge. It’s not “the Minneapolis influence.” The “Minneapolis influence” is not the leadership in either the house (Zellers) or Senate (Koch), and that’s who has said that a referendum wavier is a non-starter. The “Minneapolis influence” is almost exclusively DFL.
As for buying property, that has to be done for any site. The Linden Ave cite is essentially all owned by Xcel Energy, which should be a simple negotiation. The MSFC owns the dome site, and the Strib the adjacent parcel, which would also be an easy negotiation.
I don’t know who owns the Farmers Market site, but I thought I heard it was only one owner too, although it also seems that there is a developer independently advocating for that site, so it doesn’t sound like getting the property is going to be much of an obstacle if it goes that way.
The FM site is multiple owners...
…including a well known non-profit that helps poor folks. Which is a major potential issue with it.
Who said anything about "wisdom"
You said:
It is a business issue. … If you don’t understand these issues, you should go take a business course.
And your still having a different discussion all by yourself. In this thread no one is discussing what the “best site” is except to the extent that the question is which site can happen.
And, honestly, from a fan perspective, that should be the only question as to which site is best. That is the best site is the one that can get a deal done, build a new stadium and keep the team here.
The Wilfs, the state and the local government can take care of themselves. All I care about is keeping the team, and that’s why I don’t get the prevalence of the “OMG! Totes, Arden Hills or bust!” attitude around here.
What I want is not to bust (i.e., bye, bye LA Vikings). That’s all that matters.
If downtown Minneapolis can put together a package that’s easier to get done politically, but still acceptable to the Vikes, that’s great news. It’s not the “Minneapolis Mafia” meddling. It doesn’t make Arden Hills less likely. It’s another option and another potential way through the thicket of legislative opposition.
Finally, when you were choosing where to put your light industrial plant, did you look at different locations? Maybe one would be easier to get the necessarily permits but another was cheaper or in a more appealing location? That’s what we are talking about here.
I agree on not wanting to lose the Vikings.
Your statement about a political solution in Minneapolis that is still acceptable to our Vikes is where I have a problem. I am not sure it is possible at a Minneapolis site. There is just no way to pull out the revenue on the back end to justify a the substantial investment on the front end by Ziggy.
You worry about finding a political solution so the Vikes don’t leave. I worry about the Vikes leaving because the plans other than AH don’t justify staying. Or what you can pull out for a profit is too small compared to other cities that you can not pass the opportunity and decide to move.
To your last question: We looked at several locations. When I left we had 5 production facilities, 1 material prep facility and our corporate headquarters. (We had 1 facility for everything when I started.) They were spread over 4 suburbs and a facility out of state. We were limited in our choices due to zoning, but costs and access were the major concerns. Costs include property taxes, condition and suitability of existing facilities vs. construction, rent if applicable and insurance. Because of the nature of our business, we also had to check closely with the condition of the municipal utilities at every potential site. It was a balancing act. Getting all permits was taken care of before signing any deal. Or was already in place when we purchased an existing business. The cheapest choice was often not the best choice.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Then the issue is with Zygi...
.
You worry about finding a political solution so the Vikes don’t leave. I worry about the Vikes leaving because the plans other than AH don’t justify staying. Or what you can pull out for a profit is too small compared to other cities that you can not pass the opportunity and decide to move.
It is not the State’s job to deliver the best deal for him. It is their job to deliver the best deal for the State. Now, you could easily argue that anything that results in the Vikes leaving is a horrible deal for the state and thus Zygi should just get what he wants. But I don’t blame folks for being skeptical about this. After all, its not in Zygi’s best interests to make clear how much better or worse AH is for him.
You claim that there is no way to pull in enough revenue on the back end to justify an urban stadium. Do you have any numbers backing this? Have the Vikings ever made public any numbers supporting this? Or is this just a “common sense” position without any factual backing? And what defines “too small” a profit?
I’m not suggesting you shouldn’t/can’t be worried. I’m just saying unless there are some clear numbers out there showing AH as the only option (and if there are then the Vikings would be wise to raise them) then I don’t think it is possible to have a substantive discussion around the issue of profit margin for an urban stadium.
You're right, the issue is Zygi if...
he can’t concede to viable options that the state/either city is offering. BUT, it depends on what you think the state should be doing.
It is not the State’s job to deliver the best deal for him. It is their job to deliver the best deal for the State
It sounds to me like you believe the state has no duty to keep the Vikings here at all. The state is supposed to do what’s best for the people, is what I think you wanted to say. Sure, they’re supposed to get the best deal possible(helps the people too). But at some point, the state needs to figure out where the line is that letting the Vikings leave is better than the $$ it would cost to have them stay. I would argue the state has a bigger responsibilty to keep them here and thus should stop putting hurdles in front of them. I understand it’s “negotiating” and “politics” and a majority of the hurdles have been thrown out from certains Reps with certain political agendas, but I hope those Reps realize that they are going to be viewed not as the rep that saved the state $$(up front, but possibly lost $$ in the long run), but more as the rep that pushed the Vikings out the door.
White Horn Gold Pants
Not what I said or meant...
It sounds to me like you believe the state has no duty to keep the Vikings here at all.
You’re correct, I was saying their job is to get the best deal. To take it farther, each legislator is also trying to get the best deal for their constituents as well.
I understand it’s "negotiating" and "politics" and a majority of the hurdles have been thrown out from certains Reps with certain political agendas, but I hope those Reps realize that they are going to be viewed not as the rep that saved the state $$(up front, but possibly lost $$ in the long run), but more as the rep that pushed the Vikings out the door.
I think we see this in the same way. My only point is that thus far the Vikings push for AH has consisted of “we met the stated goals and this plan is what we want”. They haven’t really explained why any other plan wouldn’t work beyond the “we won’t have as much land, control, or won’t make as much money”. I don’t blame legislators who are approaching this with a wide view questioning why AH is the only possible deal. I am NOT defending anyone who is balking from a strictly ideological (read: no new taxes ever or no public funding for pro sports ever) position. It’s that middle block that has to be convinced because ideological fools won’t change.
Here's the thing
First and foremost, why don’t you leave worrying about that to Ziggy? I’m pretty sure he’s a smart guy.
But if you do want to worry about it, I actually think the combination of the current dome site, the Strib parcel and the armory have a ton of development and therefore profit possibilities. They are different from Arden Hills, and obviously have a smaller footprint, but they are also potentially more valuable. I bet Ziggy could finding a way to make plenty of money on 50 acres downtown.
I don’t have the expertise and experience to really plan that, but I walked through the skyway that runs along the Thrivent building the other day, and I could see the Armory working as a reception/party/fan entertainment complex that serves as a gateway to the stadium to the north on the Strib parcel, leaving the surface lots south of the armory as prime tail gating space and the Metrodome footprint as either parking/tailgating or a parcel Wilf could develop to his liking.
Hey amiller92, long time no see.
Haven’t gotten to chat with you since before Thanksgiving—did you have a good holiday? You’ve had a very busy day here today. I’m a suburb mouse so five blocks isn’t much to get excited about.
Sure, I like Arden Hills, but my affection for the Arrowhead Stadium-like experience for Vikings fans could have there isn’t the crux of my surprise that Minneapolis chose to focus on a new Vikings stadium at the Metrodome. Part of the advantage that Minneapolis would have as a potential location for a stadium is the downtown ambiance and entertainment, but the biggest attraction near the Metrodome is Hennepin County Medical Center. That’s convenient for emergencies because HCMC is a Level 1 trauma center, but not really a happening tailgating spot. No, the location that seems most likely to be able to woo the Vikings away from Arden Hills is the Farmer’s Market location.
The idea of creating a sports entertainment corridor with the Twins, Timberwolves, and Vikings all in one part of town is a cool one and it’s something you can’t get in the suburbs. It features some of the best in Minneapolis entertainment, shares existing parking, and has access to Light Rail. If Mayor Rybak was going to throw support behind a single Minneapolis site as Minnesota lawmakers requested, that seems like the best one. Advocating the easiest site might not be what is best for the overall entertainment experience or conducive to keeping the Vikings in Minneapolis.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Agreed on the FM site.
I don’t get why Rybak would push the Dome site other than idiocy or naivete. It’s not even the best move for the City much less a move that the Vikings would be likely to support.
That's why I wonder if the decision to focus on building a new stadium on the Dome site...
Is an issue of timing. Figuring out the logistics of a Farmers Market stadium might require more time than the city of Minneapolis felt like it had to present a single site to Minnesota lawmakers.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I hear you
But I think you can make something more appealing out of the east side of downtown in the process too. There is a lot of empty space (i.e. surface parking lots), but it takes a lot more work than at the Farmer’s Market.
But that’s true of Arden Hills too. So I guess it depends on having the opportunity for new surrounding development is a plus or a minus.
That's certainly true.
It isn’t as if neighborhoods or cities stay static, they’re always changing as businesses move in and out of an area. It could be that the city’s decision to focus efforts on building a new stadium on the Dome site could be part of a comprehensive plan for the area that simply hasn’t been publicized yet.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
A definition of insane is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results
By that definition the Minnesota government is insane. Just thought I’d bring that up.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
by Grime on Dec 7, 2011 7:35 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Certainly looks like it.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
He looks asleep to me...
Probably said, “wake me up when they stop rehashing the same failed ideas ad nauseum.”
or dead...
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Minneapolis armory
I also read this morning that Ryback is also talking about converting the Armory into some sort of site the fans could use on Sundays if they stay at the Metrodome site. Have you seen this building? I mean this thing is UGLY! Not sure what he’s been smoking.
I love the idea of an open air stadium with a big ass parking lot for tailgating. NFL network has a piece on stadiums’ biggest home field advantages and the Met came in at #10. I think it should be higher – but I’m biased. I’d love to see the teams from the south come North again for a butt whupping outside when it’s +5.
Thanks Skol Girl!!!
by Torstein on Dec 7, 2011 8:42 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The armory
Also happens to be right across the street from the Strib parcel.
I happen to like architecture from that era, and I don’t love you dissing the former home of the Lakers, but it would need a ton of work to be appealing.
Home of champions
Sorry – I meant no disrespect to a bldg that was home to 5 (or 6 NBA championships depending on how you count league affiliations). Let’s just say it’s seen it’s better days.
I just think it’s time to wipe the slate clean and start over with a new site for the Vikes.
???
I thought the Lakers played at the Minneapolis Auditorium, which was razed to build the convention center. I saw a concert there once, and I’m pretty sure I saw Laker championship banners hanging from the rafters.
I guess we're both right
I know I’ve seen pictures of Laker games in the Armory, and according to this it looks like the generally played a few game there every year, but it was only their main home facility for ’59-60 season, which was their last in Minneapolis.
I went to the armory in the late 60's
for AWA Wrestling main events. I saw a great tag team match there. Nick Bockwinkle and Ray Stevens defeated Billy Robinson and Wahoo McDaniels in a 60 minute time limit match to retain their title. The match was tied 1-1 when Robinson pinned Bockwinkle a second too late. So those mean guys/cheaters of Stevens and Bockwinkle retained their title. I was a young lad who still thought pro wrestling was real. That is a great childhood memory.
The Armory is a grand old building that is now in disrepair. I would love to see The Armory revitalized no matter the outcome of our current stadium dilemma.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I'm a bit younger than you
But I agree, and it’s depressing that it’s only used for indoor parking now.
And as the occasional household hazardous waste collection site. :-(
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
Outdoor stadium would be awesome
A long time lurker on Canis Hoopus and Twinkietown, closet Viking fan (Hard to keep getting hopes up for a championship, but always coming up short-usually in bizarre (choking!?!?) fashion). Still a diehard fan, time to go back to outdoor football, it has greatly enhanced the game day experience for Twins games. If the $200-300,000 can be lopped off the price of a new stadium, I say go for it!
I love this idea from SkolGirl!
Since the cost of acquiring the TCAAP property and cleaning up the pollution there has already been agreed upon between Ramsey County and the federal government, the Vikings could buy the property outright and build the cheaper open-air stadium they have favored from the beginning. Since the cost of an open-air stadium is significantly less than a roofed stadium (some have said a roof adds between $200-300 million to the stadium cost), the Vikings might be able to raise the cost of a stadium privately, the way the Dallas Cowboys did.
Outdoor football, tailgating, no public money (or minimal amount), Wilf gets the real estate opportunities he covets. Everyone’s a winner!
Prep bowl
Love it! Only problem is where to play the Prep Bowl each year.
I'm all for it
If Wilf is willing to do that, I don’t think anyone else would object. I definitely would support it fully. Can they offer pseudo-stock like the Packers do?
Perhaps in the stadium
But anything dealing with the team itself, even pseudo, would not be allowed by the NFL
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
Thanks Vrooman :)
I seriously doubt that my idea has any chance of becoming a reality. It’s just that with the price of the TCAAP property already agreed upon with the federal government, the Vikings could acquire it and have have it cleaned up for less than $30 million. The team had talked about putting as much as $420 million into a stadium, but if they could raise $300 million more they could build where they want to. Something to think about.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
I've said it before, I'll say it again
WHERE THE HELL WERE ALL THESE “PLANS” ABOUT A YEAR AGO?!
Proud contributor to Daily Norseman and SB Nation Minnesota.
Follow @eric_j_thompson
by Eric J. Thompson on Dec 7, 2011 9:55 AM CST reply actions
The plans you're looking for are in their main computer..........

See, they’ve been there all this time………………
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
If there was an outdoor stadium
I would do a happy dance of joy. ANd I would come to 1 or 2 games a year.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
How many fans
Do you think would show up on Sunday this week if it was an outdoor stadium? 5,000? 10,000?
by amiller92 on Dec 7, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How many people would have shown up at the Metronome last Sunday if Tebow weren’t such a phenomenon?
How many fans will show up at Lambeau in the middle of January for the NFC championship game?
Not trolling here, just pointing out that the product on the field has more bearing on attendance than localized weather patterns.
Absolutely
But there will be 40,000 plus there this Sunday. Probably closer to capacity than that.
But combine a bad team with bad weather and the place will be empty. And just when they need the revenue for rebuilding too.
not all fans are pussies
grow a pair you live in minnesota its has had cold winters since the last ice age. i went to games at old met if you cant suffer the elements with your team then start being a fan of bowling its indoors .
I'm glad you're so tough
But I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about the crowd in general.
You can tell them to suck it up all you want but that ain’t gonna make them show up.
The showing for the Bears game...
…didn’t inspire confidence in the hardiness of the fanbase for me. Though the craziness of that whole situation makes it hard to judge an accurate picture.
WHen the team wins
it will sell out. If the team sucks, they will struggle to sell out. It’s not about weather, it’s about talent.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Being outside
Is a downward drag on attendance when weather is bad and an upward lift when weather is good (capped by capacity).
It’s not the main driver, but it exaggerates the volatility enough to significantly impact revenue when both the team and the weather are bad.
I completely disagree
I think most fans would love the stadium to be open. I know most people on this site would anyway.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 7, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
Do not confuse
Most people who comment on a blog with most fans.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but I think 50% or more of you are full of it and you wouldn’t go watching a bad team when it’s freezing out.
Wow, you are disrespectful
If we can't laugh at ourselves, Packer fans will call us crybabies and we will be forced to kick their tooth in. I really don't want to go to jail (again).
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Dec 7, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's disrespectful
To say that more people will say they’d love to watch losing football in single-digit temperatures outside would actually do it?
meh I would also not be that keen to be in a 70 degree dome and watch losing football
However, if I got a couple of hours of tailgating added to that, well then it’s a different story all together. You go to a game for the experience (at least in my experience) The better you can make that the more people will end up going to the game. There are a lot of college teams out there that are terrible, but the game day is so much fun that it’s always packed.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Speaking of lack of research.......
You never noticed the figures in the Old Met, both when the Vikings did good and bad.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
Game at the Bank
How many people showed up for last year’s game at TCF against the Bears? Plenty of bad weather and a crappy team with nothing to play for – and very short notice of the change of venue. Seemed plenty full to me. I didn’t live in Mpls then or I would have gone. I think there are lots of fans who would actually look forward to a game being played in the snow/cold – IMO. It’s not all about the team’s record either. I think regardless of whether or not it’s inside or out – you have to create a great game day experience. I don’t think the Metrodome offers that any more.
You have a point
But that was kind of a novelty.
Agreed
It was a novelty – but it still shows how much interest and passion there is for this franchise – in spite of all the BS and mismanagement. I think an outdoor stadium with an amazing concourse and a Vikings HOF would be a great thing. I hate to say it but I guess I’m thinking of something like the rebuilt Lambeau – except way cooler.
Oh and wouldn't it be fun to see Brees up here playing in the snow?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Not everyone out there will be in body paint.
But the people who are sure are fun to watch!
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Considering that in Minnesota we sit on frozen lakes fishing through holes in the ice...
Is it so hard to believe that we could hack it watching football outside? Probably not. Especially if we were watching our favorite team in a modern stadium.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Have checked
How many people are included in you “we?” I think you will find that not many Twin Cities residents ice fish regularly.
You are a debbie down aren't ya.
sorry Denis downer..
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
That could be...
I guess I have that impression because live quite close to White Bear Lake and during the winter it’s so covered with ice shacks that it looks like a frozen subdivision. There’s so much business to be had there that the pizza places even deliver to the ice shacks. My sister and brother-in-law just moved to Minnesota and my brother-in-law (from Colorado) wants to go ice fishing—he feels it’s one of those Minnesotan rights of passage.
You bring up an interesting point too. I also thought that it was mostly just residents from the seven county metro area who attended Vikings games. But according to the Vikings 40% of their season ticket holders live outside of the metro area. And, of those living outside the metro, 22% of them live out of state.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Huh
I would never have guessed it was that many.
I wouldn't have either.
It really surprised me.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
If it was an out door stadium I wonder how many fans would buy 'Stock'
to see it happen?
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Lot of Packer fans did.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Yes But....Packer fans would rather watch the Packers than feed, cloth and educate their children.
Ive been to the belly of the beast. Laid my eyes upon their bloody football alter. They have “better” fans in Green Bay and their whole state is worse off because of it. Honestly it’s not worth being THAT devoted to the team. Domestic abuse skyrockets when the Packers lose. I think there is a middle ground.
Anyway it wouldn’t cost the Vikings anything to set up a website asking for donations to build a stadium. I think the reason they don’t is because it sounds despicable for Billionaires and Millionaires to DIRECTLY ask for $25-75 when they can ask the State for it instead. JUST AS DIRTY but everyone pretend it’s not disgusting.
That said I’m all for it. Just not 1.1Billion and not in Arden Hills.
by fanslaststand on Dec 7, 2011 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
So...
If thats true about domestic abuse, then it must be baby makin time for those cheesed out weirdos….crap more fans!!
by natedawg2133 on Dec 7, 2011 7:25 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
“Should be interesting to see how this issue progresses. And where it progresses.”
This stopped being interesting ten years and two administrations ago. Now the issue is just a segue into jokes about impotence and stupidity.
Ten years in and a site still isn’t even agreed upon. Nothing is agreed upon. The state of Minnesota WILL lose the Vikings. Face it. It’s too late. Only one of the many tunnels away from this issue is showing any light at the end of it — and that’s the tunnel where Wilf and the Vikings leave Minnesota’s stupidity behind.
One thing the Vikings could have done
Is post more renderings of what the Arden Hills “Experience” would look and feel like. I don’t trust these guys with 600M until I know what I’m buying.
If the whole thing is about tailgating that doesn’t really do it for me. I’m a young guy who likes to get bombed, believe me, but the Vikings – Packers game I went to ppl were falling down in front of me drunk. I’m supposed to want more of this? I was 16th row on the 35 too (comp tickts).
Honestly guys, people are plenty drunk at these games as it is. I wouldn’t take my kid.
OR they could take their ball and go home
To a new city with a new stadium. Go ahead, force them to stay in Minneapolis. See how that works out.
I love the idea of an open air stadium that is mostly financed by the Wilfs, but it seems like alot of work, and someone in the government will oppose it and try to stop it from moving forward just as they are now.
It’s supposed to be a give & take. The Wilfs have been more than patient.
They certainly have been patient...
The Vikings organization hasn’t issued threats in all of this, they’ve gone out of their way to be clear that they aren’t issuing threats. There likely would be obstacles to the Wilfs building a self-financed stadium in Arden Hills, but it is hard to believe that they would be any worse than the ones the team is facing trying to get government funding.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Well, except
The whole money thing.
If self financing appealed to them, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Bagley has brought up just recently that the Vikes have another city other than LA interested in them
I think that’s quasi threatening at best.
The Vikes aren't in a remodeling or reconstruction they are in a burn the place down and start praying they don't mimic the Lions rebuilding process.
Bagley doens't even have to say anything.
As long as L.A. doesn’t have a team, it functions like an unspoken threat for teams seeking new stadiums.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
Casino!!
Let the White Earth band of Ojibwe build the proposed casino on the parcel. That would eliminate the need for public funding! They can make their profit in a high profile area as well as taking the burden off the local residents! win win!!!! Plus they can obtain their own business objectives!
It would be very effective at paying for a stadium.
But is is uncertain whether Minnesota would allow an Indian casino to be built outside of tribal lands. Still, an interesting potential solution to the situation.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
http://www.dailynorseman.com/
already precedent for casinos on non-tribal land in MN
the Fon Du Lac band has the black bear casino just off of HWY210 outside of cloquet (that might technically be tribal land, but I don’t think it’s technically on the reservation), and they also operate a casino (the Fon-Du-Luth) in downtown Duluth, which while could be land owned by the tribe, is definitely not “tribal land” in it’s traditional definition…
Actually...
…the Black Bear Casino sits right in the corner of the reservation. See map here: http://mapserv.fdlrez.com/fdlgis/ No idea on the Fond du Luth…apparently the profits are shared with the city though.
I was in Duluth last weekend
And was surprised to see the downtown casino. From the outside, it looked like it’s been there a long time.
it has
Like I said, I wasn’t 100% sure if the reservation went all the way to I-35. I grew up in Cloquet (Class of ‘93)…I don’t think it did when I was little, I think the tribe bought up a fair amount of land….but I could be wrong, the black bear went in almost 20 years ago.
IIRC I was in middle school (mid 80’s) when the Fon-Du-Luth opened up.
Private Finance
To bad the WIlf’s don’t have a big name company to sponsor the stadium and drop the 600 million into the naming rights and such instead of relying on the state to come up with a financial assistance packaged plan. Some big corporation in Minnesota just a guess on that one.These hearings if you cut threw the to the main points it really appeared as if Rybak’s plan drew the legislatures dearest attention due to the mayor trying to win over his proposal by keeping a local revenue streams rolling in Minneapolis. Also the brilliant idea of reconstructing the dome site for less money by using some smoke and mirror financial tactic by taking some finance streams away from the convention center institution fund. Adding the Armory facility for more space he feels he has the better option and doing ot all for less than the Arden hills site.
best buy would be cool... or us bank since they sponsor the vikes already
by Lunchpail on Dec 8, 2011 2:11 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
US Bank would be awesome!
Several years ago, before I dumped these jokers, the ridiculous fees and penalties that these guys charged while I was struggling could have financed a new stadium alone! Their motto is “We’ll Bounce Your Bounce!” My own fault I understand but they make it harder than heck to turn the corner. I do like the idea of a corporate sponsor though, and have to believe that that idea has been kicked around by Viking ownership.
When dealing with politicians...
The details of ’what’s really in it for them’ is different than the public message.
We’re publically hearing an updated metrodome is the best option.
What we’re not hearing is anywhere within the taxable domain of Minneapolis is a requirement.
What we’re not hearing is this tax revenue loss is ‘too big to make up’ and hurt Minneapolis financially in a move to Ramsay County.
What we’re not hearing is a move out of Minnesota is better than Ramsay County getting the golden goose (a no win situation, still Minneapolis loses out).
What we’re not hearing is political posturing to save their own jobs short term, even though they wont be around in 15-20 years.
What we’re seeing is a re-play of how Minneapolis shutting down earlier alternatives eg Anoka/Blaine solution years ago for Arden Hills scenario. Political sabotage with a controlled media message.
It’s disgusting. The metrodome lease terms were poison to any organization using the facility. It had to benefit Minneapolis financially. Convention center tax funding political maneuvering is dirty tricks at work.
The marriage is over. A fresh deal and direction is needed. 200 million difference might look nice on paper, as a cheaper deal but it is a poisoned deal years in the making with repeated sabotage efforts in the past 10 years.
It’s time for a new and better landlord. Minneapolis needs to re-examine their finances if they are too dependent on the metrodome and tax revenues from the vikings. Minneapolis has a dependency problem and not ready for a vikings withdrawal.
It really scares Minneapolis what Arden Hills can be come, not only for 20 years but the next 50-100 years as an ultimate Vikings destination – something that Minneapolis cannot provide. Over this life time of 50 years (conservative), $2 million a month * 12 months * 50 = 1.2 billion dollars is revenue going to Ramsay County.
That is the unvarnished truth, in my opinion. No excuse for being under a rock all this time and holding Vikings hostage as the only place to play in Minnesota.
Predictions: The lease will expire and begin the unwinding of financial obligations to Minneapolis. The leverage will shift back to the Vikings. Even if Minneapolis sweetens the deal by 200 million or 400 million, it’s not good enough. A deal is struck with Arden Hills under a competitive scenario, and metrodome is re-leased for a short term for 2 more years. Minneapolis survives short term but faces a financial shortfall for failure to be a good life-time worthy landlord to the vikings. Minneapolis has 2 years to figure out how to pay for the ‘can they’ve been kicking down the road’ into a dead end. Fans are happy Vikings stay in Minnesota, and does not turn the state into Green Bay country.
by VikesFanSince1967 on Dec 8, 2011 11:30 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

by 





















