Two Reasons Why Our Run Defense Is Getting Worse
by Vikings55Thunder on Feb 11, 2011 12:24 PM CST
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The first reason is Pat Williams. It pains me to say this ,but he isn't getting that push that he used to get up the middle. Teams were converting 3rd and 1 on us more often this year because Pat just can't man handle his guy at the line of scrimmage. I'm not convinced though that he can't do that completely anymore. Leslie Frazier needs to do a better job of subbing for him this year. We've got a lot of depth at Defensive Line which we learned from last year's preseason so lets use it. We need to give some more rest to Pat so we can bring him in on those 3rd and 1's and goal line stands which will allow him to produce like he used to.
The second reason is Jared Allen. I did not notice how bad his run stop skills were until my soon to be father-in-law pointed it out to me. From the day you start playing DE to the day you stop, what are the coaches always preaching? Don't let the running back get to the outside. How do you accomplish this? By not letting your man push you inside. So many times Jared would try his spin move to the inside and it would end up being a run and then we would get burned to the outside. He needs to get better at recognizing the run. He is still one of the best pass rushers in the league ,but he's allowing that to hurt his run stopping abilities which in turn is hurting the whole team. He is getting to greedy and trying to sack the QB every time. He needs to work on recognizing the run better. I'm really hoping with Leslie Frazier as the Head Coach and the new addition of Mike Singletary, Jared will learn to do this and become a complete DE that you can't run or pass against. Even when the Secondary was bad you could always rely on the rush defense in the past, not allowing anything on the ground and then in 09' we developed a pass-rush defense. If our rush defense does not get back to the level it was at two years ago and our secondary doesn't get any better, we are going to drop into being a mediocre defense in the near future.
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I voted something else
Not playing with the lead. That was the biggest detriment to the run defense. In 2010 the vikings led for like at total of 12 minutes in the entire season. That means that teams were running a lot more to chew up clock. In 2009, the Vikings probably led for all but 12 minutes of the entire season, therefore teams had abandoned the run in effort to catch up.
"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
Have to disagree with you on that one
see the 2009 Baltimore Ravens game, and the Carolina Panthers game, both RB’s had 100 yards and the Baltimore Ravens were trying to come back, and the Panthers two back tandem just destroyed the Vikings that night. Jared Allen is a good pass rusher, he’s just not a good run stopper.
by PurpleEaters on Feb 11, 2011 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
2 games out of 16
And we lost to Carolina, so naturally that was one of the few instances when we weren’t protecting a lead.
Jared Allen was a very good run defender in 2009. As I also mentioned, he was underweight this season. But the main reason for the stats running stats going up was due to more rushing attempts. Pat Williams being a year older and JA playing 15 lbs lighter didn’t help though.
"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
and in the Ravens game
The Vikes jumped out to an early lead, which affects the game plan differently from a late lead. In other words, the ravens did not give up on the run game entirely because it was early and they felt there was still time to establish the run and get back into the game, which they did.
"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
Um... what are you talking about?
In the Carolina game Williams had 13 yards, Jonathan Stewart had 109 yards and a TD on the ground. Of that total, 48 yards and a TD were gained by Stewart in the 4th quarter when the Panthers already had the lead.
In the Ravens game, Ray Rice only had 77 yards rushing, 33 of which came in the 4th quarter on a blown assignment by Tyrell Johnson in which he ran for a TD.
If anything, these games reinforce NMVike’s point.
That probably played a role but there’s no doubt that there was a noticeable difference as far as run defense goes. I mean, no one, and I mean, no one used to run on you guys, especially up the middle. This season it seemed like the middle was one of the weak spots. Pat’s just declining.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Feb 11, 2011 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
Ok
But I’ve crunched the numbers. YPC was almost identical this year as it was in 09. As was rushing TD’s allowed and longest run. Numbers that did increase in 2010 was yards per game, rushing attempts, amount of game time that the defense was on the field, % of 1st downs via run, and % of 3rd and short. That latter numbers strongly indicate that the defense was a disadvantage due to ineffective offense, field position, and time of possesion.
"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
That latter numbers strongly indicate that the defense was a disadvantage due to ineffective offense, field position, and time of possesion.
I absolutely agree to that.
I think last years defense was good enough to keep us alive, but being supported by an offense that can’t get a 1st down is what killed them.
As bad as the Vikings were last year, the defense kept those games a lot closer than what they should have been.
Constantly being on the field, and on the wrong end of the field will wear down any defense.
However with that said, I must admit that Pat Williams isn’t the Wall that he used to be.
I also said something else... BEN LEBER!!!
He didn’t do anything. Nothing! Teams ran to the left so much because yea JA isn’t the best against the run but it doesn’t help that Leber is behinde him. Just ugly. and We don’t have a safety that can help out. Madiue is pure ****. Gotta move Winfield back there.
Draft a QB! Please God!
by Macdaddy4508 on Feb 11, 2011 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
You are 100% correct about that
Although I also have to agree at least in part with the poster since JA had been better vs. the run while he was in KC, not having the lead was the bigger factor, by far.
If you want to point blame at JA
I would blame his hair cut and weight loss. He played around 250lbs this season.
"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
You Left Out Kevin Williams Passing His Prime
by Midnight Rambler on Feb 11, 2011 2:29 PM CST reply actions
um he still made the Probowl
so I can’t understand where you’re coming from.
☠★☪My dream, is to see the Minnesota Vi♛s win a superbowl. USA- the land were dreams come true. ☀ ツ This is our ۩۩house۩
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 13, 2011 8:19 AM CST up reply actions
Two words. Phat Pat. His play declines a great deal this season. That didn’t allow the LB’s to run as freely as they had in years past, and it hurt the run defense. Hard to blame Allen, simply because he’s always been poor against the run. He tends to over run plays, which obviously leaves a hole. I think he’s just a little soft against the run too.
Fire Slocum
Jared Allen's job is to sack or hurry the QB, that is all.........................
not to stop the run……………………………..
R U Kidding me with this observation?
Brett Favre is the Greatest QB in NFL History, Bar None!
Brett Favre will be back in a shortened 2011 due to a lock out, Guaranteed!
Brett Favre will lead the Vikings to a Victory in Super Bowl XLVI, Guaranteed!
by REVENGE4FAVRE on Feb 11, 2011 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
No he's an every down player
Jared Allen is one of the premier defenders in the league, as a result he needs to be able to play the run or the pass. This is shown by his play time, namely he’s out on the field for most plays. If his job is solely going for a sack then the wise plan is to limit his time on the field in order to stack for obvious running downs early or short yardage situations.
This is not done because he’s expected to play both run and pass.
by PackApologist on Feb 11, 2011 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
If that’s the case then I’m not sure why he’s out there for almost every play of every game.
Fire Slocum
by packallday555 on Feb 11, 2011 10:05 PM CST up reply actions
Hey R4F
Was wondering where you’d been! As much as I hate to have to agree with two Packers fans over a Vike fan, I think they’re right. You can’t take a player like Jared Allen and only give him only one job. That’s the kinda thing you do with ‘specialists’, and as has been mentioned, those guys don’t play every down. Look at AP- he’s a magnificent runner obviously, but he’s been expected to also catch short passes and help pick up blitzes (first which he’s had great success at, second which he still needs some work on).
I do think it’s the one flaw in Jared Allen’s game. That said, I believe he’s the kinda player who has no problem fixing flaws- his lack of arrogance as well as his intelligence lends him to be quite good at it.
Nothing's tougher than being a diehard Vikings fan.
And when we didn't have a pass rush specialist at DE
we
were drying like babies to do something. Getting rid of Allen just puts us backward. He had an off season. This team did not jell. Ya gonna blame JA for a near Super Bowl appearance 2 years ago?
Yes. Some guys do excell in one thing over another. Jared has had years where his tun D was better but he will not be pimo at it. We had balance on that front 4 and it worked.
I know one thing. JA will correct his errors-he is a perfectionist and harder on himself than we are on him (which I am not)
We had a bad year period. Go back to Vikings BA (B4 Allen) All run D and no pass rush.
The D a sa whole just fell apart. Remeber when we started blitzing around and baffling Philly? You don’t thing the Vikings are going to overlook that success and put the D together based on shifting LBs , corner blitzes and DE drops (which jared did very well.
That is difficult and demands an athlete! A corner or OLB blitzing and the DE dropping back to cover that open zine.
I want to see that strategy develop stronger this year and I will bet Singletary insists on it!
AKA : Revenge4Webb
by CitrusFLViking on Feb 12, 2011 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
Well they can alwats trade Allen
How about they offer him to Jacksonville for their #16 pick?
Then the Vikings could get a QB and an OT!
And they can resign Edwards for less than what Allen is making and not really have a huge drop off. Obviously there will be some drop off.
But getting a top QB and top OT in the same draft is worth the price right? :)
Wrong!
LOL, sorry, had to start it that way.
Right now, the bullwark of the Vikings is two things: our front seven and our run game. Since I’m not particularly sold on any of the QBs in the draft, I’m not willing to definitivly (sp?) weaken one of those bullwarks by releasing JA (and I believe the drop off will be far more than you might think) just to gamble a bit more in the draft. JA isn’t Phat Pat- he’s still in his prime, has some years left of that, and is even showing the potential to become even better than ever.
Furthermore, JA’s face snarled at people who flew into Minnie for some time. He’s a franchise face, just like AP. In a time when fan support is at an all-time must to get the new stadium done, I don’t think getting rid of a fan favorite (and believe me, I’d say he is) is such a great idea for the franchise, IMO.
Also- let’s not forget what all we traded and gave up for JA. A #16 overall now isn’t going to ‘balance’ out the original trade, so to speak- not when we still have a few years left of getting some real service outta the guy.
Nothing's tougher than being a diehard Vikings fan.
I voted something else
Although Pat William’s decline (look, the guy’s the oldest active defensive player, you can’t blame him) didn’t help.
I think it was our secondary! Our run defense was based off of two things: our solid D-line, and our solid LB corps. With our secondary in shambles, the LBs had to play further back to try and support them. This left the run defense almost entirely to the D-line, which creates two problems. One- extra pressure on them to a.) pressure the QB, b.) play SOME pass defense, and c.) take the full burden of stopping the run. Two- it’s easier to get by the D-line when there’s a few yards open behind them. Rather than have to identify holes in both the D-line AND the LB’s, you only have to identify a hole in the D-line. And no D-line can present 0 holes. It gives RBs less work to do and allows them to move faster.
I think our D-line and LBs are fine. Even with the loss of P. Williams, (probably) Ray-Ray, and Leber, I think our depth will keep the decline minimal. But if we can’t patch up that secondary, we’re going to see the same thing over and over.
Nothing's tougher than being a diehard Vikings fan.
spot on!
You hit the nail on the head! The D-line does need to get more of a push up the middle, this keeps the LB’s the freedom to attack the run, but if they are spending all of the time covering for a WEAK secondary the can’t help with run support as well. Look at the Ravens D. The DT’s (when in 4-3) or nose tackle (3-4) have kept the LB’s clean from contact & freed up to make stops. This is helped by corners & SAFETIES that can do the job. Why do you think Ray Lewis & the rest of the backers are still thought of as such BEASTS? They can run free & make plays because they have the help of the front 3 or 4 & help from a talented backfield. We have the front but NOTHING on the backside.
L. A. Player
by L. A. Player on Feb 12, 2011 12:19 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Keep Them Coming
All of these points are really good and I’m seeing some things that I didn’t know about such as Jared Allen losing weight. The only comment I had a problem with was Jared Allen only having to worry about sacking the QB. True he is definitely a pass rusher ,but you have to be able to do all things no matter what position you are at. Especially if you want to be a premiere defender in this league. Also you become a liability on defense.
by Vikings55Thunder on Feb 11, 2011 9:47 PM CST reply actions
Ben Leber
Main reason for everything that goes wrong on defense
by Oliver 4 Perezident on Feb 12, 2011 9:54 AM CST reply actions
I think M.Williams has Leber beat.
After Williams it’s definitely Sheppard.
To tell you the truth, I don’t recall Leber actually being a problem ?
I don't either...
but it’s a bit of a moot point now, as Leber’s days as a Viking are undoubtedly behind us. Granted, that’s thanks to age, not lack of skill (M. Williams have the opposite problem).
Nothing's tougher than being a diehard Vikings fan.
Granted I didn't get to see every game this passed season
but when I had the opportunity to watch I never saw Jared Allen do one impressive thing all season in 2010. He was like a ghost when compared to his 2009 showing.
________________________________________________
www.lordkayoss.com
First half of the season, yes.
Second half looked much more like Jared Allen of 2009. Granted, he still had his occasional weak showing- but above points regarding weak secondary and playing from behind hurt him further.
Allen said that he realized about halfway thru the season he was telegraphing himself with pre-emptive hip movements. He corrected the problem and become much more of a force afterwards. That says a lot about a player, particularly a veteran player: when they can look at themselves and their game, realize there is a problem, identify said problem, and then ADJUST said problem- and with the desired results. Not only do I think Jared Allen’s skills are beastly, but I think his intelligence is highly-underrated (partly thanks to himself and his goofy personality- but a penchant for humor, practical jokes, and eccentric habits have nothing to do with intelligence, it just makes you appear at times less smart).
Nothing's tougher than being a diehard Vikings fan.
Also you have to factor in who he was facing in the first half of the year
Jake Long, D’Brickashaw Ferguson, Matt Light, & Jermon Bushrod to name a few.
No push up the middle...
The drop-off came from the Williams wall IMO. It seemed like every time JA put heat on a QB in 2010 all he had to do was step up in the pocket. Obviously that is a huge generalization but it happened too many times. In 2009 that was not an option as frequently.
Good points (everyone)
I figured something was up. I remember watching him have a field day with Aaron Rodgers both games last year. I got so familiar with his calf-roping sack celebration I subconsciously began to look for it in 2010. Then of course the NFL banned it because they’re a bunch of pantie-wearing sissies.
But, I’m glad to know Allen corrected his issue and stepped his game back up.
________________________________________________
www.lordkayoss.com
For the people who think trading Jared is a good idea
Why trade him and go back to the Pre-Jared days? Um, any true Viking fan doesn’t want to see that AGAIN!
☠★☪My dream, is to see the Minnesota Vi♛s win a superbowl. USA- the land were dreams come true. ☀ ツ This is our ۩۩house۩
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 13, 2011 8:21 AM CST reply actions
Agreed
Trading Jared Allen is not a good idea. He can learn to stop the run.
by Vikings55Thunder on Feb 13, 2011 8:20 PM CST reply actions
Offensive Line Theory
The Vikings O-line didn’t give the QB much protection, and it was about useless in opening lanes for the running game.
This meant less clock control, fewer 3rd down conversions and less time for the offense on the field.
This meant more time for the Vikings D on the field.
This meant the Vikings D got gassed a lot faster, it was easier to run on a tired D-line AND there was more opportunity to light up a suspect Vikings secondary.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
I think our Defense will benefit from last season
this season If our Offensive stays on the field longer!
☠★☪My dream, is to see the Minnesota Vi♛s win a superbowl. USA- the land were dreams come true. ☀ ツ This is our ۩۩house۩
by UnBannedVikingholic on Feb 15, 2011 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
Combination of things...
In the ‘09 season it was very late in the season before we gave up an opening drive TD. ’10 Season opener vs. the Saints we gave one up and there were more points going on the scoreboard off first drives than we’d seen before. We seemed to be giving up large gains on 2nd down leaving teams in 3rd and short rather than 3rd and medium to 3rd and long.
That points a finger at the linebackers and secondary missing tackles at the first point of contact, leaving teams with an easier setup to gain 1 or 2 yards. With that being said Phat Pat was wearing that elbow / arm brace most of the year and the only reason to wear such a brace is because of weakness or injury. This would make it harder to fight off double teams and get the push up the middle.
Bears vs. Vikings Tickets - $150
Beer and food for 24 tailgate bus trip - More than $150
Watching Jared Allen destroy Jay Cutler LIVE - Priceless!!!!
SKOL Vikings!!!!
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