Stock Market Report, Draft Edition
First things first, and we'll comment on this a little bit more later on, but
AMERICA IS AWESOME AND BIN LADEN IS SUCKING A PIG'S PECKER IN HELL AND WASHING IT DOWN WITH A PORK MILKSHAKE WITH A BACON CHASER. BOOYA!!
Okay, back to football. If there's a theme for this weekend, it's 'Big Time'. Not only are the 10 picks the Vikings made this past weekend on the verge of it, but so is DN, since we got press credentials for Thursday Night, and we've got the pictures to prove it.
But first, a music video, as is our wont on the SMR:
Like you didn't see that coming. It was going to be Peter Gabriel's 'Big Time', but world events have caused a change in our regularly scheduled programming, and I couldn't be happier about it.
We'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American Way.
SMR, after the jump.
I think it was a solid weekend for the Vikings, as they had a draft where they addressed multiple needs with quality players up and down the draft. I have no problems with anything the Vikings did in the draft, none at all. Granted, I was an advocate of trading down and trying to recoup that third round draft pick they lost in the Randy Moss trade, but if there are no trading partners, like GM Rick Spielman asserted during his press conference on Thursday, then there's really no option but to take who you feel is best for your team at #12.
Blue Chip Stocks:
Christian Ponder, QB: I know there is some angst among fans who feel Ponder was a reach at 12, but this is a good pick for the Vikings. I've already discussed why, as has every other writer here at DN, so I won't beat this dead horse anymore--much. But just let me say this, and then I'll quit, I promise. The NFL is a quarterback league, and the Vikings are woefully trailing in the NFC North Arms Race. You're not going to win a championship with just a good quarterback, but you're going to lose one without a good one. Unless you're the 2000 Baltimore Ravens. As much as I hate to admit it, the Vikings aren't even going to win the division as long as they're trotting out Jim McMahon Warren Moon Randall Cunningham Jeff George the noodle armed version of Brad Johnson Brooks Bollinger Kelly Holcomb a 41 year old Brett Favre (insert name of any 30-something QB here)Tarvaris Jackson.
There, I'm done saying my peace on Christian Ponder.
Kyle Rudolph, TE: I was pleasantly surprised with this pick, because the Vikings went with the best player available strategery with the draft, and Rudolph was the best player available, and will provide a great target for a developing Ponder. Obviously, this means Jim Kleinsasser's days as a Minnesota Viking are coming to a close, and my soul will die just a little bit when Jimmy K has retired, but nothing lasts forever. Kyle Rudolph reminds me of Joe Senser, a big target that can get a lot of yards over the middle. I'm looking forward to hearing 'Ponder..rolling right has a target...throws...touchdown, Kyle Rudolph!' for about a decade or so.
Solid Investments:
Christian Ballard, DL: I was driving home Saturday when I got a text that the Vikings had drafted Christian Ballard in the fourth round, and I was very pleasantly surprised. The SB blog that covers everything Iowa, Black Heart Gold Pants, did a nice write up on Ballard before the draft, and they think he can be a solid contributor for a long time as a Viking. That's good enough for me.
Ross Homan, LB: Woot woot, a Buckeye!! Sixth round? Wow. I'm kind of surprised that Homan lasted that long, but good for the Vikings. He's not the fastest guy, he's not a guy that jumps out when watching him, he doesn't have a lot of WOW moments (except for the late first half pick against Oregon in the Rose Bowl--SUCK IT DUCKS FANS), but he's just an all-around smart football player. He made all the defensive calls for the Buckeyes, and was one of the more consistent players on a very good defense. Short term he's an immediate contributor on special teams, and long term I can see him taking the place of Ben Leber. Or taking the place of the guy who takes the place of Ben Leber.
Junk Bonds:
There are no junk bonds this week. A bunch of kids who have dreamed of playing football in the NFL got a call from a team and will have an opportunity to fulfill what they have worked very hard for. I hope they all make it. And a group of American warriors risked life and limb to bring to justice the biggest bastard in my lifetime. I hope they all make it home safe. God Bless fellas, and may you never have to buy yourself another beer. PaveLow leads.
Buy/Sell:
Buy: Sid Hartman's Old School Ways: So let me set the stage. I get to the Sid Hartman Media Center about 3:30 or 4:00 on Thursday, and when I walk in the Holy Trinity of Vikings beat guys (Zulgad, Scoggins, Pelissero) along with their evil corporate overlord (Kevin Seifert of ESPN--who really isn't evil, but the corporation is, so it's more of a guilt by association thing. I really like Seifert's work a lot, and he's a really good guy) are typing away madly. You know, working hard and doing the job of a good beat writer. About an hour and a half later, Sid Hartman walks in, and immediately demands to change the channel on the TV in a Clint Eastwood in Grand Torino 'get off my lawn' kind of way. Hey, when the media room is named after you, you can watch whatever the hell you want to. When it comes time for the Spielman presser, Sid grabs his recording device, a vintage...VINTAGE...cassette recorder with a microphone straight out of 1964, and grabs a seat. Sid Hartman mocks your modern technology, and scoffs at your Internet and Twitter. He'll write when he's damn good and ready, and not a minute before. I would bet that Sid used that cassette recorder the last time the Gophers were in the Rose Bowl.
While Everyone Else Scrambles, Sid Patiently Waits. Why?
Because Sid's Tape Recorder has forgotten more about football than we''ll ever know, that's why.
Sid Hartman might be in his 80's, but he's still a badass, and it was cool just to be in the same room with those guys.
Buy: Taking Ponder at #12: Okay, just one more thing about Ponder. I tire of the 'value' argument when it comes to the draft. Yes, I know, I just used that argument when talking about Ballard and Homan, but I embrace hypocrisy when it suits me, and it suits me here. As a team, if you feel that Christian Ponder is the guy that can lead your team effectively for the next ten years or so, and you know he won't be around in the second round, and the guys that will be available won't be as good as Ponder, then Ponder is a good value pick at 12. Okay, NOW I'm done.
Buy: Osama Bin Laden Is Now In Hell (When I was hunting him, it was spelled with an O. Old habits die hard): I bet when he was greeted by the Devil...with a pound of bacon, glazed ham, no virgins and an anal probe bigger than the one the aliens gave Eric Cartman, he was one pissed off dead Arab. Good. Na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, GOOD-BYE! Bitch.
America, Fuck Yeah!!
Sell: Assuming the Defensive Guys That Were Available At 12 Were Better Options: The NFL draft is such a crapshoot that it's impossible to say whether or not somebody should have been picked before somebody else. Were there other guys available that might have been just as good as Christian Ponder might be? Yep. Were there other guys out there that could be as monumental a bust as Ponder might be? Sure. For me, it's just too early to get worked up about any of these guys, because they haven't even taken a snap in the NFL. I'm satisfied with the guys the Vikings took, and I'm excited to see what kind of contributions the Class of 2011 will make in the years to come.
And I don't care about who they DIDN'T take.
Sell: Issuing Draft Grades Less than 24 Hours After The Draft: I could try and be more eloquent than Chris was over at SB Nation Minnesota, but I can't be. He is spot on perfect with this piece here, so I'll just link to it and move on. And Kyle was on the mark here, so I think you guys understand where we're coming from on the whole grading process.
Sell: Atlanta trading 204 Draft Picks For A Guy That Has Never Played A Down In The NFL: Quick, name a receiver that if your team traded your 1st, 2nd, and 4th round picks this year and their 1st and 4th round pick next year for you'd think, 'wow, that was a great trade!' I'll wait. Larry Fitzgerald? Yeah...maybe. And I'd be leery then. But for a guy that's never played in the NFL? Ree-damn-diculous. Look, I get that it's official policy for most writers that cover the NFL to bash the Vikings for anything they do, but to call out the Vikings for 'reaching' for a QB while staying relatively silent on the dumbest trade in recent memory is insane, unless you call it a good one for Cleveland. This was a GREAT trade for the Browns, and just a stupid move for the Falcons. I don't even think Larry Fitz is worth 5 draft picks, and he's the best receiver in football.
So it's a kind of an abbreviated SMR, but I think we covered all the points. I'm digging what the Vikings did, and by reading a lot of the post draft analysis, it seems that the early reviews on Ponder are more positive than negative. I will say, Rick Spielman and Leslie Frazier are very high on this kid, and spoke highly of all their draft picks. Granted, I'd be a bit dismayed if they came out and said "we weren't really fired up about this guy, we just sort of panicked and threw a name down on a piece of paper so we wouldn't pass on our pick like Tice did in '03", but it seems like they got good players where they needed one, with maybe the exception of safety, and got good players early, middle, and late in the draft.
And remember, eventually there will be undrafted free agent signings, veteran free agent signings, minicamps, OTA's, and training camp, so whatever the Vikings need can still be addressed once the new league year begins.
Depending on what the courts say, of course.
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man, every photo i see of Homan, he is tackling a gopher
not to inspiring to be a minn fan, or a student
My favorite Ted column - The Stock Market Report
I think I’m digging how things panned out and now am just wondering if the Vikes will sign a veteran QB to compete with Ponder. Another thing, if Hartman starts calling you his “close personal friend”, you know you’re in business. Great report.
About the bin Laden thing
I would think that Hell is tasting ham and bacon for the first time, then never again.
Not saying bacon converted me from being a Muslim, I’m just saying…
Ponder’s looking good. If only we could boost our receiving corps with the FA period. I imagine Rice is undervalued, so maybe his shopping won’t be too effective.
Also, it’d be nice to hear FA rumors of WRs instead of QBs for a change.
Incidentally, I love the TE choice, but I don’t think there’s a lot of statistical evidence to support that rookie QBs go to TEs that often or that they help improve performance more than they improve the performance of vet QBs. It WILL be good, however, that they will get accustomed to each other. Maybe the stats I saw didn’t correct for offensive schemes and this is more true in Walsh-y WCOs. I hope so. I like this.
Actually there was a study
completed on what position catches the most passes from a rookie QB.
The answer was RB. Yep, a good pass catching WR was the #1 choice.
Makes sense when you think about it. Shorter pass. Easier to complete the pass.
Ponder has no idea how much pressure the fans will put on him. But he will succeed.
Wow, what an error. The sentence should have read
Yep, a good catch passing RB was the #1 choice.
Ponder has no idea how much pressure the fans will put on him. But he will succeed.
Rudolph
He reminds me of a hybrid between Todd Heap and Jason Witten. I think he’s gonna be amazing for us. The best news is he will have to work his ass off to compete with Shiancoe (the guy that goes through catching drills after every practice for about 20 minutes) and that will also only make him better. Couldn’t ask for a better pro to learn from, IMO. And the competition for “starter” should bring out the best in both of them.
With Musgrave wanted to use 2 TE sets
I think we’ll see both on the field together in 2011.
After that… We’ll have to see if Shiancoe stays in MN when his contract is up a year from now.
I love Shank
but if he keeps getting offsides and holding penalties then unfortunately he’s going to have to go. he’s not THAT dangerous of a receiver to warrant all the mistakes. He’s a great personality for the team so hopefully he gets those cleared up.
Skol!
Couple things
I think we’ll see both on the field together in 2011.
Yes, I’m sure it will be quite a bit. That’s why I wrote “starter” with quotation marks, because I don’t think it will matter too much which one is officially higher on the depth chart. They’ll still be competing for the top spot on the depth chart though and that competition will drive them both to be better.
he’s not THAT dangerous of a receiver to warrant all the mistakes.
In the last 3 seasons, only Vernon Davis, Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzalez have more TD’s at the TE position. Don’t underestimate him.
The Atlanta Draft
I live in Georgia, so I have some local perspective.
The Falcons were >< this close to the big game last season, but Green Bay took them to school in the playoffs. It is the feeling around here that Atlanta is one piece away from the Super Bowl, and that piece is the WR. Looking at it from Atlanta’s POV, its obvious they need a WR to complement White. They have no one to stretch the field or to take away double teams on White.
So when they spend multiple draft picks to get a WR its a no-brainer that they did what they thought they needed to improve the team. Was Jones worth 5 picks? Probably not, but I thought Dimitroff (Falcons GM) said it best when asked. He said that when your team is picking so late in the draft (Atlanta was 26th I think) you’ll never get the blue chip guys. The sucky teams will take all the good talent. So the only way to get them is to make a move. In other words, no guts no glory.
In the current era of the NFL, winning today is the thing. Atlanta is playing the game, just like Minnesota did back in the day.
the falcons offense
didn’t give up 44 pts to the packers it was their defense. this argument that the packers scored 44 pts so the falcons needed a Wr to throw to so they could score is silly. they should have drafted someone who could put pressure on the qb rather then letting him sit back there and toss TD’s at will.
Thank you
That’s what I was thinking.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
I agree
Probably would have been better have trading up for only a few spots to get Amukamara. Wouldn’t have had to give up the goat. Holmgren is still bragging about it.
I would too..
They basically got a mint for 1 player.
Hes 1 HELL of a player…but ya, they got a dang good deal out of that.
Its going to be a hell of a season in Atlanta if this boy cant figure out how to make both sides work better than last year.
Mind you id kill for their season last year :)
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
Browns got a good deal
But they could still blow those picks. It will be interesting to look back at this deal in 5 years and see who came out ahead then.
i agree
MH has a pretty good head on him though, I have confidence they will make em work :)
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
Me too
Just sayin, any draft pick has inherent risk involved, no matter who is making the decisions, and no one is a guarantee. Not to mention they have already used up 3 of the 5 picks they received in the deal.
It would be pretty hilarious if Greg Little (the guy they got with the 2nd round pick from Atlanta) turned out to be better than Jones though.
And look how the Browns are sitting for next year's draft
They get to see McCoy for a second full season, enough time to know whether he’s the QOTF or not. If they want to replace him in a year, they’re the new frontrunners to be able to move up and take Luck
The Patriots have 2 first round picks too
Not that I think they’d take him. But they might be willing to part with one of those picks if a team is looking to stockpile and make a play.
It may be silly
But the failure of the defense is not what is talked about. Its about local perspective.
Wow, seems weird
Roddy White is a quality WR, and I thought Michael Jenkins was/is serviceable.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
Jenkins is meh
according to the local commentary. Good, but not good enough to take the heat off White. Basically, you need two guys lilke White, not White and some other guy.
It's true
Jenkins is solid but not enough to burn you if you triple cover White. Adding Jones makes that one of the most dangerous offenses in the league.
They want Ray Edwards
If he is an unrestricted free agent under the new rules. Julio Jones + Ray Edwards + a free agent DB, to go along with the depth they drafted would put them where they want to be, in my opinion.
ive heard the one player thing b4
mike lynn we are just one player away from superbowl lets mortgage our future and get hershall walker. adn what did lynn do the next year . quit and had all this money to start the whole mfl europe thing … kinda fishy dont ya think
I'm not a fan
of the Ballard pick. I know he has talent and could be great but he takes plays off. the vikes have enough very talented players that take plays off. I’d rather have a player not as talented that plays hard every play, i.e. Aaron Kampman. other then that, I thought they had a much better draft than last year.
If the Vikings Had Taken Ballard In the Second Round, I'd Agree With You
Aside from the questionable decision to smoke up when he knew there was drug test coming at the NFL Combine, there are other reasons to question Ballard’s work ethic. I’m a grad student at Iowa; I know that of which I speak.
But Ballard does have real talent, and by nabbing him in the fourth at best the Vikings get second-round performance for fourth-round money. At worst (and I don’t think it will come to the worst-case scenario with Ballard), the Vikings wasted a fourth-round pick, which is nowhere near as bad as wasting a second-round pick, much less a first. cough Demetrius Underwood cough Troy Williamson cough
by Midnight Rambler on May 2, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
You should get that looked at....
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
I agree its
more acceptable because its a later round pick . But I still think they need to get away from
the “lazy” player. they took one last year and now this year, throw in McKinnie and Edwards and that’s 4 players. I don’t like the trend.
McKinnie I agree
But I think Edwards has been a good, solid player since he came here. Grouses about his situation, but if I was told I’d be a free agent in four years and then wasn’t because of the stupid labor situation, I’d probably complain as well.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
you could be right about Edwards
but to me Edwards is borderline. he’s not as bad as the others but there were some games over the past 2yrs where he didn’t seem to be playing hard. I definately think he can be swayed that way.
I absolutely love the Ballard pick
Think about this: You draft “talent”! If the kid has some motivation issues, then he’ll just need to take a look around and see Allen, Kevin, and Robison breathing down his neck. Not to mention Greenway and EJ peaking over his shoulder and the PurplePeopleEaters of old looking down from the Ring of Honor. If that doesn’t motivate a guy, I don’t know what will. We have Vet leadership there to help straighten some guys out. Plus, I’d rather have Ballard on my team than Clayborn(other Iowa DL). Talk about a player who took plays off! Some draft gurus had Ballard slipping into the first round until his drug test came back.
Skol!
Try that again...
You can motivate a talented player but you can’t make a motivated player more talented.
if you love the ballard pick, then you probably like the griffen pick from last year too. they both have issues and fell to the 4th round. ballard couldn’t even get clean for the combine. that is a serious red flag. i mean, borrow a whizzinator or something.
except we didn’t need a defensive end and left some good players on the board that would have filled a position of need. like bruce campbell or mike williams. griffen fell for a reason, just like mallet did this year.
And
griffen fell for a reason, just like mallet did this year.
Just like Mike Williams (suspended all of 2008 season and quit the team in ‘09 to avoid another suspension) and Bruce Campbell (workout warrior who didn’t show up on tape and had a rumored learning disability) did.
And don’t forget that at the time of the draft we didn’t know WR was a position of need. Sidney Rice was making a successful recovery from injury and Percy had his migraine issues sorted out at the time. O-line was arguably a need, but Campbell was an inferior prospect to Griffen on film.
You don’t draft for need in the 4th round, you draft for value. Griffen was the best value pick there.
if the vikes didn’t know that at the time of the draft that sydney rice had a career threatening injury, then there is something really wrong with the personnel department at winter park. also, bernard berrian was a #3 wr at best. i’d say wr was a position of need…..an still is.
mike williams:
….starting #1 wr tampa bay bucs in his rookie year
….65 rec / 965 yds / 5.3 yac / 44 1st dns / 11 tds
bruce cambell:
….projected 1st round draft pick (at a position of viking need)
….fell to 4th round also…no arrests and fills a position need.
everson griffen:
….10th on the depth chart of 10 defensive lineman on roster
….(most teams go with 8 defensive lineman, wtf?)
….1st round rumors, but “chronic” underachiever fell to 4th round
….rumored to be unmotivated and undiciplined
….how many arrests does he have now? can you spell TASER?
christian “spicoli” ballard:
….“forgot” to bring his whizzinator to the combine
….1st round rumors, but also a “chronic” underachiever fell to 4th round
….rumored to be unmotivated and, “damn dat’s some gooo weeed”
we left several guys on the board that could fill bigger needs
when we picked ballard (although i don’t really mind the pick)…
1. quinton carter 3rd ranked ss big hitter w/ strong character
2. marcus cannon ot 6-5 350 projected top 50 pick
3. david arkin og 6-5 300 smart 4 year starter didn’t miss a game
4. owen marecic fb 6-1 245 smart 4 year starter pro style offense
those are 4 guys i would take over ballard because they are value that fills a position need…..and neither of them failed the drug test at the combine.
Um
that sydney rice had a career threatening injury, then there is something really wrong with the personnel department at winter park.
They didn’t, remember? They thought he’d be back until that whole surgery thing right before the season. If they didn’t think he’d be back healthy for the season they would have had him get the surgery in the offseason. And it was hardly “career threatening”, he was back playing a few months later.
Now the tedious part:
mike williams:
….starting #1 wr tampa bay bucs in his rookie year
….65 rec / 965 yds / 5.3 yac / 44 1st dns / 11 tds
Again, he barely played at all in his final 2 seasons in college. He was suspended from the team for the entire 2008 season and quit the team rather than accept another suspension in 2009. Frankly, that’s a MUCH bigger red flag than “may be lazy”. Sure, he panned out well for the Bucs last year but no way anyone could have predicted that. Of course, no one knows what the future holds for him now either.
bruce cambell:
….projected 1st round draft pick (at a position of viking need)
….fell to 4th round also…no arrests and fills a position need.
He only fills a position of need if he actually fills the position. He was a workout warrior that flew up boards after his combine workouts. Then, when teams revisited his tape, they discovered that he couldn’t play worth a damn. He was more drafted as a developmental prospect based on his athleticism but I don’t see how a guy that couldn’t crack the starting lineup in Oakland would be an improvement to our offense last year.
everson griffen:
….10th on the depth chart of 10 defensive lineman on roster
….(most teams go with 8 defensive lineman, wtf?)
….1st round rumors, but "chronic" underachiever fell to 4th round
….rumored to be unmotivated and undiciplined
Besides the fact that we can’t possibly know where he fits in our overall depth chart (and the fact that after we traded Jayme Mitchell, we only carried 9 linemen), we didn’t know how his rookie season would go when we drafted him. When you’re talking about “what we should have done” then you can’t take into account the things we have learned since the decision was made. When we drafted him he was a 1st round talent with rumors of laziness and no arrest record.
1. quinton carter 3rd ranked ss big hitter w/ strong character
2. marcus cannon ot 6-5 350 projected top 50 pick
3. david arkin og 6-5 300 smart 4 year starter didn’t miss a game
4. owen marecic fb 6-1 245 smart 4 year starter pro style offense
1. 3rd ranked SS in a very poor safety class. And very, very slow. NFL.com actually rated our 5th round pick Burton as a better DB.
2. Is currently undergoing treatment for cancer and very likely will not play for anyone this year. An estimated 10% chance he will never play in the NFL.
3. Small school prospect that many graded lower than our 6th round pick Demarcus Love, which filled the same need.
4. Um, a fullback. Completely unnecessary. With the movement towards 2 TE, I don’t see us carrying any fullbacks this year.
I’m not saying Ballard was the definitive only choice, just that every player in the 4th round and beyond has red flags and negatives. It’s hard to argue what red flags are worse than the others, you just have to pick who is highest on your board regardless of need. From the fourth round on, the odds are low that the guy will become a starter so drafting for need is pointless. You just have to take the best player you can and hope they turn out to be good enough to make a contribution to your team. Odds are good they will be completely out of the league in 5 years anyway.
you seem to have missed a few things.
re: sydney rice:
They didn’t, remember? They thought he’d be back until that whole surgery thing right before the season.
sydney rice had an mri right after the injury occured. he was vying for a big payday and seems to have kept things under wraps until the may mini-camp. that is when childress became unglued because he wasn’t aware of the injury!!!!
so, the vikes were remiss in not knowing what the hell was going on. then sydney held them up with his delay tactics. remember, we had the likes of javon walker in camp, hilarious.
the vikes later came back and claimed they knew about it all along. really? then why the hell didn’t they address the positional need?
thus the draft (i forgot to mention the toby gerhardt debacle, too):
mike williams would have filled a position need.
11 td’s vs. 2 more arrests…i rest my case.
and, bernard berrian sucked and cost major $$. he clearly needed to be replaced. if you would take a chance on a problem guy like everson griffen, then i’d take a chance on a guy like mike williams.
bruce cambell would have filled a position need AND was graded at about the same level as everson griffen. SO…at the time of the draft, he would have been a much better pick than a d-lineman. remember, we had a slew of d-linemen, we didn’t need one more.
p.s. we carried 10 linemen….what the heck for?
When you’re talking about "what we should have done" then you can’t take into account the things we have learned since the decision was made.
i didn’t. read it more carefully, please. griffen was a problem child who was at a position that we were already stocked up at. why waste a pick there, when there are other obvious positional needs and equally good to better prospects available?
to finish off regarding this year’s 4th round pothead pick:
1. quinton carter didn’t fail his drug test at the combine. he’s big, he can hit and is a high character guy at a position we need more than folks want to admit.
2. shame about cannon, good luck buddy!
3. i would take arkin over love based on all the reports i’ve read. i think the small school thing affected the perception of him. he got picked before our guy for a reason, just sayin.
4. no fullback? yea, okay. good luck ponder. that o-line is crap and you are ging to get rocked (just watch last year’s favre highlights). i’d rather protect the #12 qb they picked. and if they aren’t going to upgrade that weak o-line, then they need all the backfield blocking help they can get. who is going to pick up the blitz?
every player in the 4th round and beyond has red flags and negatives. It’s hard to argue what red flags are worse than the others
i agree with that.
…you just have to pick who is highest on your board regardless of need….drafting for need is pointless.
i totally diagree. this is why the vikes keep coming up short. it’s shortsighted, imo. i would rather pick a player that addresses a problem area, and hope that the guy can pan out enough to reduce a liability. carrying 10 d-linemen last year was plain stupid.
Who did we take last year?
they took one last year and now this year, throw in McKinnie and Edwards and that’s 4 players
I disagree wholeheartedly on Edwards, since I don’t believe for a second Dunbar would tolerate anyone on that line taking plays off. But who are you talking about last year?
I catch what you are throwing but...
I’m sure Frazier has seen this laziness that you speak of. He has had meetings with Berrian, McKinnie and Edwards this offseason and he said they all went well. Since it is a known fact the players respect Frazier more than they did chilly, hopefully it’s that respect that will drive those said players to get their hands off their grapes during game and practice time and perform to the standard expected of them. Or simply they will have to find work somewhere else. I don’t see Frazier messing around with people unwilling to give it their all.
I have alot to say but will hold back a bit .
First : It is true that Ballard doesn’t fit the need . We need a true NT . As Pat will be a hard guy to lose .
Second : Your high if you believe he takes off plays ! He comes from the countries 24th overall rated defense . He wasn’t over-shadowed by all the stars around him . He clearly stuck out as a lunch pail kinda guy .
Third : The Hawks get pegged as a party school . Most deserved . But they also slam those caught . His joint before the combine is a sad event . Before that mis-timed error . This guy more that fits in this defense . All those road loses come from the lack of tough stout guys like Ballard . He will help elevate our chances to win on grass the old fashioned way .
And Aaron was smaller and less talented with the same work ethic . Aaron’s health contributes to his consistent production . Ballard is young , more talented , bigger , stronger and on a much better overall front seven than Aaron ever got a chance to see .
Haynesworth
When Washington cuts him this season I seriously wouldn’t mind the Vikes giving him a shot (be gentle with your insults please). We need a force in the middle. Pat is getting up there in age and it clearly showed last season. Our Williams wall face 4 games suspension. We need a filler, bad. Haynesworth is huge and I think he would love the opportunity to play along side either of the Williamse’s in a 4-3 which in turn would drop his attitude. Give him a year deal to prove himself. If he acts up, he’s gone next season plain and simple. I know people think he would be waaaaaay to much of a distraction but we need at BIG guy in the middle. IF/When the skins cut him due to irreconcilable differences I wouldn’t mind him coming to this team for a season to try him out. Especially since he mentioned last season he wants to play for Minny.
That guy
Might be better off playing the rest of his career on 1 year deals…
But strange as it sounds, I’d actually be on board with this. It would be a nice answer to the Fairley/Suh combo (though a little older, still dangerous). I have faith in Dunbar to get the absolute most out of his players no matter who it is (he turned Jimmy Kennedy into a productive player for crying out loud). And you’re right, he does want to play for Minnesota. Who wouldn’t want to play between Jared Allen and Kevin Williams though?
I think I would be okay with Haynesworth too.
He’s a beast in the 4-3, and the Vikings D-line would/could dominate again.
I just wonder if Haynesworth is too $wealthy to care about the game anymore.
With that said, Haynesworth would obviously need an attitude adjustment before the Vikes commit to anything, and a contract that the Vikings can get out of if he comes to camp overweight.
And his Probation officer's approval...
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
are you serious? haynesworth? he just got into trouble again for sexual harrasment. and he was in the dog house last year because he couldn’t perform. i don’t want any piece of hayneswirth, although his character would make griffen and ballard seem not so questionable.
I wasn't aware of his legal troubles.
with that, I don’t want him.
Like I said, Haynesworth might be too rich to care about football now. Cashing a $20mil dollar check can have that affect on some people.
Sexual Assault*
If sexual harassment was enough to get you in trouble with the law the entire Jets team would be in jail… And Clinton Portis.
Fat Albert Haynesworthless
should be in scrubbing toilets in prison
From my understanding
There’s a poison pill in Haynesworth’s contract – the second to last year of the contract is worth something like 11 million dollars.
overall loved our draft
Not in love with the value in the first, but was our favorite QB left at a position of need
2nd round. Love Rudolph. Was the consensus best TE in the draft and BPA.
4th round. Ballard awesome athlete, fills a need and was most experts BPA.
5th round. Burton early entry junior good upside, need, and my favorite way to draft BPA
6th round. D. Love 1rst team SEC, was on Lombardi and Outland trophy watch list.
6th round M. Raymond 2nd team Big East and fills a definite need.
6th round. B. Fusco my personal favorite pick. This kid was the D2 Rimington award winner, as well as the D2 lineman of the year. Has outstanding size, smart, intense, instinctive, competitive, driven, and showed extremely well at both the combine and senior bowl.
6th round R. Homan one of the BPA’s, 2 time 1st team Big Ten, strongest LB ( 32 reps).
7th round D. Reed great production for a backup to 2 DE’s already drafted from Arizona, and fills another need, strong ( 30 reps).
7th round S. Burton great size 6’ 2" 221# WR athletic and fills a need.
by NorthPoleNorseman on May 2, 2011 8:36 AM CDT reply actions
Your a poet . Yes . If we would have gone down to KC and got a second and future pick .
Dalton and a starting WR could have secured the Offense other than the Vet QB . Goodell killed us when we lost the ability to trade Rice , Edwards or even Ryan Cook .
Prefer Ponder over Dalton
I like Dalton but I can’t shake the feeling he’s not going to pan out. I wish I could, he’s been a favorite of mine throughout the process. But my gut never has come around on him.
I might be wrong here
Wasn’t a great Center who goes by the name of “Birk” a 6th rd pick? I could be wrong but I thought I saw that. I have high hopes for this guy.
The good outweighs the questionable...
And in the end, can you ask for more?
We had what 9 pics? And the most “questionable” of them is just 1….
8 out of 9 isnt a bad score kids lol.
If 50% of these guys pan out, its a damn good draft.
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
Hell if the QB pan out it's a hell of a draft
☠★☪My dream, is to see the Minnesota Vi♛s win a superbowl. USA- the land were dreams come true. ☀ ツ This is our ۩۩house۩
by UnBannedVikingholic on May 2, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
True that lol
Some positions are worth more then others huh hehe :)
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
Ted, I think this post tells me mostly that you are excited about the Vikes drafting Big 10 guys.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 2, 2011 9:14 AM CDT reply actions
Well, I know Big Ten guys more than other conferences
because I’m as big a fan of Big Ten football as I am of the Vikings. And I think they picked some good ones up and down the draft.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
I'm a PSU fan,
Big 10 guys make the most sense for the NFC/AFC North. It’s not a speed division, though there are some faster players in recent years. Still, if you want to succeed in this division, you better know how to run and defend the run.
"When I put on my uniform, I feel I am the proudest man on earth."
-Roberto
by blackjackfishtaco on May 2, 2011 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions
I have to disagree with you on that
There’s only 2 teams that truly try to establish the run: Chicago and Minnesota and Chicago has the “fastest show on turf” Coach running their offense and are quickly going away from that. It’s a passing division. The only “running” division, I would say, is the AFC West with KC and Oakland(i think #1 & 2 in NFL in rushing). Maybe the AFC North(Ravens, Steelers, Cleveland, Cincy)? I agree that in this division you need to have a solid play with your front-7 and hope your back 4 can hold on and make enough plays, but it does all start up front on both sides of the ball(you can say that about any division)
Skol!
My dark vanilla view ?
We are far from New England in the draft department . And with that said . After careful value only review . I see a solid value . Especially compared to last year’s meltdown . Yes > Ponder is a Brad Childress kinda vanilla pick . But Musgrave the OC and Johnson ,I stand corrected , the QB coach will have their work cut out .
The only real miss was in not throwing Singletary a bigger bone . But I see that the front office did well in contacting UFA’s before they got to draft day .Lutrus/OLB/Conn , Will Hill/FS/Flor , Lefedge/SS/Rutg , are some of those that visited . Do we have a list on visitors that were not listed ? Watch for the two state of Iowa TEs and the kicker from the Hawkeyes to get a Purple shot ? A NT or a tall WR would help ? There are some good DBs still out there ? CBs from NC are worth a look !
NE is hardly brillant
with their draft choices. they miss just as much if not more than all the other teams. where they are brilliant is in accumulating all the extra draft picks. there’s safety in numbers. you’re bound to hit on players when you have that many picks.
They were brilliant in the top half of the draft . They should learn to package 5 , 6 , and 7th rders as they most likely won't make the team .
Then those crazies trade off draft picks later to make your comments look foolish ?
Tom Brady was a 6th round pick by that team
"Mel, yeah Mel Kiper Jr. He knows about as much about football as a Japanese space pilot." Rick Trickett
I don't understand
the argument that grading a team’s draft right after it happens is pointless.
To me, that position flies in the face of what the whole draft is about, which is grading. Each team grades the players based on their current schemes, players, and needs, and then attempts to jockey around the draft with trades to get the players they like the best and need the most. If that process has any merit whatsoever, then it certainly is legitimate to attempt to analyze the performance of each team and render an opinion about their degree of success or failure. If the process does not have merit, or, in Ted’s words, “the NFL draft is such a crapshoot,” then why the hell do they spend so much time, effort, and money preparing for it?
That doesn’t mean that any fans should feel less than fully optimistic about the upcoming year just because a few analysts give their team a poor draft grade. Waiting to find out how all the new players perform each year is like waiting for Christmas morning to open presents. And, any kid will tell you that Christmas presents are always exciting no matter what they are, how much money is spent on them, or the order in which they are opened.
"Believe me Delmar, woman is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man."
I agree with you but I am happy for it
A guy like Ponder hears what all the critics have to say about him being 2nd round grade he wasn’t worth that 12th pick spot. With his work ethic and motivation to be the best that criticism only makes a person like him work that much harder to succeed. Hearing him speak about his willingness to learn the playbook and make the Vikings better. Hearing Frazier say, right now he thinks Ponder knows the new playbook better than most of the players gives me confidence Ponder will be a success in the NFL. Time will tell but it’s looking good early.
What the whole draft is about
Is making your team better. It doesn’t matter who you didn’t get or where you got who because where they were drafted means nothing the second training camp starts. Either they can play or they can’t.
If that process has any merit whatsoever, then it certainly is legitimate to attempt to analyze the performance of each team and render an opinion about their degree of success or failure
Not really. Each team is making those grades and evaluations on their own, independent of the evaluation process we and experts have access to. Grading a draft based on Mel Kiper or Mike Mayock’s evaluations of players is like grading a test with a different an answer key to a different test on the same subject. Unsurprisingly, the analysts are usually wrong.
Not buying
What information is so different? Everyone knows the performance of their current players, the schemes they run on offense and defense, what holes they need to fill, and everything we need to know about the college players. Sure, each team’s evaluation is independent (unless it happens to be influenced by the so-called experts), but that’s not because the information is different. The reason we are all wrong (don’t forget that we fans engage in this pre- and post-draft crap also) is this one simple news flash: The future is hard to predict, especially in a circumstance that is so heavily related to human decisions and performance.
"Believe me Delmar, woman is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man."
Keeping in mind that the process is inherently based on opinion...
And they’re like a$$holes as the saying goes.
But the biggest difference between “expert” evaluations and actual scout evaluations? Scouts actually know what their team is thinking. Evaluators are susceptible to all the misinformation mongering that coaches and personnel people practice for months leading up to the draft.
Everyone knows the performance of their current players, the schemes they run on offense and defense, what holes they need to fill, and everything we need to know about the college players.
No. That is not public knowledge by any stretch of the imagination. We do not have access to ANY team’s internal scouting and no expert is as familiar with the details of every team’s schemes as the team’s own coaches. And any thoughts on a team’s “holes” is solely based on speculation because we have NO idea what the coaches think of each player (who they have spent literally hundreds of hours with in the film room and on the practice field).
Experts can not interview prospects at the combine, they can only report on rumors of how they went. And don’t forget about the private workouts teams hold with players that are completely closed to the media.
More importantly, NFL scouts are focused solely on and have intimate access to their team; their needs, their schemes, their coaches. Guys like McShay, Mayock and Kiper have to try and figure out on their own what all 32 teams are thinking. Invariably they can’t spend the same amount of time on the Vikings as the Vikings staff can.
Sure, each team’s evaluation is independent (unless it happens to be influenced by the so-called experts)
It’s not. At all. Not in the slightest.
but that’s not because the information is different.
They have access to lots of the same information, but the team’s absolutely have more/better access to said information. As I said earlier, interviews and private workouts are just a few examples of access that teams have to players that media experts will never have.
The reason we are all wrong (don’t forget that we fans engage in this pre- and post-draft crap also) is this one simple news flash: The future is hard to predict, especially in a circumstance that is so heavily related to human decisions and performance.
At least there is something we can agree on. That’s exactly why it’s stupid to grade someone else’s prediction of the future based on your own idea of what the future will look like.
it's pointless
because there is no way to know how a college player will transition into the nfl. so you’re basing grades strickly on stats accumulated in college which means nothing in the nfl.
Very true...
But those same stats will be used down the road to compair them to other draft classes, which is funny as hell :)
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
But that argument
basically calls the whole process leading up to the draft pointless. And, it means there would be no GM who should be considered more talented than any other at drafting.
"Believe me Delmar, woman is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man."
Not in the slightest
Draft guys and GMs get paid very will because they have to go off very limited information and skewed results to try to smell out the good players.
Draft GRADES are based on how they do in the actual game play.
GM’s essentially are making their best guess.
Draft grades should be how they translate to the field.
by Jepp The Viking on May 2, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
But if it's that much of a crapshoot
then teams should never be graded no matter what happens. Giving a team an “A” for a good draft class would be like congratulating someone for their intelligence and skill after they win the lottery. From now on, the grades should be lucky, unlucky, and win some/lose some.
"Believe me Delmar, woman is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man."
No
No one is saying don’t ever grade how teams did in the draft. Just that it’s pointless to grade them at this point when they have no information to go on except for the same info they were using to form their wildly inaccurate mock drafts. Give the players a year (or ideally, 4-5) to see what they can actually do on an NFL game. Grading on speculation is flawed. You grade on results.
i think it is fine to “grade” teams on their draft at this point. some teams selected very well for need. other teams made big reaches for players, and some jockeyed their position extremely well to get players they needed AND get more draft picks for this year and next year. i’d say you can compare the way the teams played their cards in the draft and see who the smart one in the room was.
then i’d say you can evaluate again in a few seasons and see who got lucky.
That's about it
and some jockeyed their position extremely well to get players they needed AND get more draft picks for this year and next year
That is pretty much all you can evaluate with any accuracy. Reaches are relative and irrelevant the second training camp starts. It doesn’t matter if you were picked 1st or 201st, it only matters if you can play.
then i’d say you can evaluate again in a few seasons and see who got lucky.
Or who was ACTUALLY the smart one in the room. There is some luck involved when it comes to this stuff, but if it was all luck, we wouldn’t have the same 5 teams drafting in the top half of the draft all the time and the same 5 teams at the bottom all the time.
It doesn’t matter if you were picked 1st or 201st, it only matters if you can play.
now you are reaching. yes, it matters if you were drafted 1st or 201st.
just look at the rookie salary structure, but hey, it’s only money, right?
there is a reason why guys get picked in the first round. it’s because they are good and have a better chance of succeding in the nfl than a compensatory pick at the end of the 6th round.
luck will say whether one of our (4) 6th round pix or (2) 7th round pix turns out to be any good. i wouldn’t call any of them a “skill pick” if they do.
how many draft picks did new england have in the first 3 rounds this year?
“six”, that is correct. and they got who they wanted, and they made a trade and got more draft picks for next year (2 in the 1st and 2 in the 2nd).
the vikings didn’t have a 3rd round pick in last year’s OR this year’s draft. our #74 pick (aka randy moss) finished last year on the titans, and that pick turned into a “value pick” of ryan mallet for the pats….hilarious.
Obviously it matters for salary
But it doesn’t matter for how good of a player you get. Plenty of 1st round picks are busts and plenty of undrafted players are in the Hall of Fame. The second you step on the field, your draft position means nothing. All that matters is if you can do your job better than that guy lining up across from you.
luck will say whether one of our (4) 6th round pix or (2) 7th round pix turns out to be any good. i wouldn’t call any of them a "skill pick" if they do.
You might say luck, but to say there is no skill involved in getting good players late in the draft is ridiculous. Getting guys like Love (who some were projecting as high as the 2nd round), a heady LB for Singletary to develop in Homan and a great developmental center in Brusco don’t just happen by accident. They took guys they believe have a high ceiling and trust in their coaching.
The second you step on the field, your draft position means nothing.
let’s see what happens with christian ponder. i’ll bet he is going to get a “personal mentor” and be given every chance to succeed. and much more than joe webb will. that is the favoratism that will be shownto a guy that they are going to pay many millions of dollars before he even suits up in the nfl.
You might say luck, but to say there is no skill involved in getting good players late in the draft is ridiculous.
you have another another misread here. i said i wouldn’t call it a skill pick if they succeed. that doesn’t mean that there was no thought or scrutiny put into the pick. there are many factors play out to make a 7th round pick successful. if that guy makes it, i say luck and circumstances will be involved more than “shrewd skillful drafting savvy”.
you mentioned above that “plenty of 1st round picks are busts”. if a 1st rounder is a bust, does that mean that the teams lacked skill in making their selection? or was it bad luck?
there is a reason why they were drafted in the first round and not the 7th round for sure. either way, you make a case for late round luck.
i think he was saying to grade the draft this early with stats is pointless.
Obviously they use those stats to see how they will draft, but to say Team A drafted a DT from U of ? did a better job then Team B who drafted a DT from ?State because of their college stats.
Grade us next year on how we drafted, not 3 days later.
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
Wow ! Do you watch college ball ? The real ballers stick out .
These analysists hate being wrong time and time again . So they grade a guy by his ability to sit . The Vikes openly stated that this years class will contribute immediately .
Ask the Green Bay OLB-DE from an arena league that started in mid season . It’s the vets that need to keep lifting and running sprints .
Like at LG . Hutch goes out and DeGeare starts and does well . Yet everyone wants an OT/OG in the first . Why not put him at RG . Oh ya . Herrera beat him out . And as he was recooping a shoulder surgery that nobody knew he had a few years back . He began getting strength back in mid season . Without setbacks we will see if he is replaced or not . Love will need to build his lower frame to play in the NFL . Workout warriors are a dime a dozen . Look at the local boy Tripplett . A waist of a pick .
it is pointless.
that’s why so many players are busts. GM’s have a 50-50 shot at getting a player that will be good in the nfl.
It doesn't matter about grading anyways because people only remember how they were graded and don't even really remember who they picked
My example is basically the Kevin Williams pick. People still laugh and tell jokes about that(because they see it as an all-time blunder and joke of a draft), but they forget who the Vikings actually took(arguably the best DL drafted since then)
Skol!
No one mocks the Jets
Who traded two first round picks to move up and take Dewayne Robertson 4th overall. Out of the league since 2008. Or the Saints who took Jonathan Sullivan 5th overall. Hasn’t been on an NFL roster since 2006.
They both passed on players like Williams, Jordan Gross, Marcus Trufant, Terrell Suggs, Troy Polamalu, Jeff Faine, Dallas Clark and Nnamdi Asomugha.
Right, and we’re the ones they make fun of in that draft…
their own fans mock them....
They could draft Jesus H Christ from the University of Oral Roberts and the fans would boo them….
**Rupert for ProBowl 2012!**
Jesus wouldn't go to Oral Roberts
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
well, you can’t make a bad draft pick if you can’t figure out how to submit your draft choice in the alloted timeframe. that was our 15 minutes of “lame”.
Ravens stalled on a trade
It was still a failure on our part (I think the Ravens should shoulder some of the responsibility for their blunder this year too), but it’s not like we forgot to turn in the card.
The draft is more about who you get than where you get them.
And along those lines
you can’t make a bad draft pick if you can’t figure out how to submit your draft choice in the alloted timeframe. that was our 15 minutes of "lame".
I’d rather take 2 hours to make a good choice than get a bad choice into the podium in 15 seconds.
the vikes had the #7 pick overall. they had several months to evaluate players and the other 6 teams in front of them. they had several months to target the few players that they coveted at th #7 spot and play out some possible draft scenerios. that is what every single other team does. that way, they are actually prepared for the draft and not acting like keystone cops.
they looked like buffoons, and kevin williams turned out to be a great player. they should have given him a big bonus just for not being a bust.
now, i’d say the troy williamson #7 pick is a different story…
Again
I care about results over appearance. Yes, they screwed up. But they got a good pick, so they still screwed up less than half the teams picking in that first round.
Again
You grade for appearances. I grade on results. It’s like arguing is it better to win pretty or win ugly.

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