The Erhardt Offense

that Ponder is a rookie, and the language is simpler. I remember Joe Webb saying that last year at times he was so worried about getting the play called correctly, he didn’t remember what his primary responsibility was supposed to be once the ball was snapped.

Oh, and my three paragraphs, just to show you I wasn’t full of crap, lol:

So last week we managed to convince the Vikings to let offensive coordinator Bill Musgrave sit down with us and do an interview. Well, it was on the phone, so I’m just assuming he was sitting down. I know I was, but he might have been standing. But let’s just assume he was sitting, and we’ll move along.

The first question I asked him was the offensive system the Vikings will be running, and he said the ‘Ron Erhardt System’. And that’s cool, butthere’s only one problem with that: I didn’t have a clue as to what the Erhardt (or Erhardt-Perkins system, as it’s commonly called) system is, and I didn’t want to look like an even bigger dope than I already am by following up with a ‘hey, I’ve never heard of that, what is it?’ kind of question.

But when the interview was over, I thought it might be a good idea to find out what this system and philosophy is all about, and compare it to the West Coast Offense, which is the system the Vikings ran under Brad Childress. And when DN member kcskol made a comment that we should do an article on what the Erhardt system is, I realized that maybe I’m not the only person that hadn’t really heard of this system, and a post about it might not be a bad idea.

So kcskol, and all the other readers of DN, follow along after the jump to find out everything you ever wanted to know about the Erhrdt-Perkins offense the Vikings will be using in 2011 and beyond.

makes bringing in others easier to adapt

from ted’s article, i did’t see where musgrave said he would run an “erhardt offense”. he kept his answers vague regarding the offensive system, but did clarify the terminology system. he avoided a direct answer to the question of “offensive philosophy”.

DN: Former coach Brad Childress was a west coast offense disciple. You said your offense isn’t a pure WCO, but a combination of several things. What is your overall offensive philosophy?

OC Bill Musgrave: Well, our language is based more on the Ron Erhardt system. Of the three different systems that have withstood the test of time in the NFL, you could count Don Coryell’s number system, of course Paul Brown and Bill Walsh’s West Coast offense system, and Ron Erhardt’s system, which has been run for years, with the Pittsburgh Steelers, now with Coach (Ken) Whisenhunt in Arizona, of course it’s being run in Atlanta with Mike Mularkey, and portions of it are being implemented in New England, and with the Giants. So our offense will be rooted in that base language.

that sounds to me like he isn’t tipping any cards and probably hasn’t determined the strategy or package of plays he wants to use at this time. it sounds like he is indicating that there are aspects of each of those major “system philosophies” that he could end up incorporating.

but, it sounds like the concept of using a simplified number-letter based system to call out formations, routes and other assignments is going to be based on the erhardt system. the other snippet that seemed relevant to this topic was:

DN: You gave a copy of the playbook to Ponder when the lockout was lifted, but it was written before you knew Ponder/ Rudolph were on the team, and without knowing if Rice will be back or not—what would be a percentage of the playbook that is locked in stone regardless, compared to how much is fluid and will/can be changed depending on the personnel you have?

Musgrave: The concepts are very fluid, because we want to think players first, then plays. The language—formations, motions, cadence, the way we audible and check at the line of scrimmage—those are the things we tried to provide to our players (during the brief period that the lockout was lifted during the draft). So we’re hoping they get a little familiarity with the language and we can tailor the concepts to fit the players strengths.

it seems more clear here….“the concepts are very fluid….players first, then plays”. and he states that the “language, formations, motions…” are what he gave to the players. also “tailor the concepts to fit the player’s strengths”. he is not describing any particular offensive system, but preparing for an evaluation of what he has to work with, imo.

i did notice from a little net search that jeff davidson ran an erhardt system in carolina. and he is now o-line coach. so it sounds like the terminology system will be familiar between these coaches.

It was nice to learn about the Erhardt System and how it could change the Vikings’ offensive game-plan. With a strong running back like Adrian Peterson, this system seems to make sense for the Vikings. I hope the offensive line is up for the new challenge and that the offense has time to learn this system before the season starts.

First of all yes let AD and Gerhart pound the rock. Now, if we do go more vertical in the passing game does this make a case for Webb as a starter?

this is a phenomenal article. Great write-up, great read, great job overall. Welcome to the front page indeed- this is the PERFECT follow-up to the Musgrave interview, as this was obviously a key question we all had.

Allow me now to answer all of your questions (as I, thanks to Dr. Prometheus, now have the ability to read the future and know all). PS- these are actual answers, not my usual Dr. Prometheus jokes.

1.) That really is a great point regarding the vets who didn’t show up for the optional mini-camp. Granted, if they did receive the playbooks, then it’s a non-issue. Otherwise, then yes, they WILL be behind the game.

2.) I’m sorry to say, but after conversing with my good friend Dr. Prometheus, Bryant McKinnie will find a way to let us down yet again. This does unfortunately also make me think of another potential problem on O-line, and it’s truly tragic as it’s normally the one bright spot I cling to- Steve Hutchinson. He was arguably the only player on the line who fit into the old scheme. To be sure, one player (no matter how good) alone is not worth re-thinking changing the O-line’s scheme: that’s long overdue regardless. But our beloved O-line hero is getting long in the tooth- can we count on HIM to run 10-20 yards down the field as a road grater, with effective results, a whole season long? Hopefully, we’ll be leaning on the right side of the line for these moves- but unfortunately, that does allow for defenses to better prepare. Before moving on, however, I have one thing to say to brighten everyone’s spirits:

Adrian Freakin’ Peterson.

3.) That of course remains to be seen. It does put a bit of extra pressure on us in regards to getting to training camp on time. Of course, we knew we were under pressure already in that regard, but when it’s spelled out so clearly, it makes it even more apparent. The upside? We’ve got a new QB. This isn’t someone who’s used to playing for the Vikings in a system for 5-10 years: they’re learning as they’re going along anyways. Consider the old zen metaphor, you can’t pour water into a cup that’s already full. Even in regards to Joe Webb, the guy didn’t really get a full season learning our old system (keep in mind, he spent the majority of the ’10 campaign running second team in practice).

4.) I choose to believe this is a non-issue. His pro day workout (I might be thinking of combine… if I’ve got the wrong thing down, sorry) showed he has the ability to bomb it quite effectively. He played in the WCO in college, but this doesn’t mean he can’t play in something else. Keep in mind, FSU didn’t change their entire offensive system just to suit him- he made it work. He can make the Erhardt Offense work, too. To me, the biggest hurdle for Ponder and the Vikes is convincing him to not do crazy, gutsy things that get himself hurt- he’s gotta learn to slide, to tuck in and just take the sack rather than burst and try and drag it out, etc. I’ve always believed the ‘noodle arm’ bang against him was just based off of the fact that he wasn’t asked to bomb consistently in college- it wasn’t that he couldn’t, it was just that he really wasn’t asked to, or really taught to.

5.) Like question #3, this is a giant maybe that we really won’t know until about halfway through the ‘11 season, at best. Brace yourselves- I think Bernard Berrian might actually show some value with this concept in mind. BB is quite a speedy guy. He might not fight for the ball enough, he might not keep an INT from happening when he could have, and he might not always make the clutch catches necessary. But in terms of just needing a raw speed guy on the outside, I think we’ve got a fit here. Keep in mind, Musgrave seemed to make it clear that he’s no Chilly- the playbook will be adjusted to our players, not the other way around. (And G-d bless him for it.) I’m thinking a lot of the outside verticle plays will be designed to help open up the slot, where we happen to have arguably* the best guy for the job. And presuming we get one Mr. Rice back, I think that will work too. Rice may not be exactly a true speed demon (although, he’s no slowpoke either), but his height and his ability to make a catch happen will help in this regards as well. One speedy guy (BB) on one side, one hard to cover guy on the other (Rice), and a terrifying presence in the slot (Harvin)- I’m going to feel optimistic about this one. But you know what I believe will be key? Having Adrian Peterson in the backfield and NOT ALWAYS GIVING HIM THE BALL. Truly great players like AP serve two purposes- doing amazing things when they get the play, and then ALSO scaring the crap out of the defense to allow other players to make big plays, too. If we fake a few handoffs once in a while, teams won’t know when to just stack nine freakin’ men in the box (Giants), or to just move into a frickin’ dime package to shut the passing game down. That was always the most arguably absurd part of our previous offense- teams knew EXACTLY when it was a pass versus run play, based entirely off whether AP was in the backfield or not. And the good news is I believe Musgrave isn’t stupid enough to allow that to happen again.

*The only other player I will allow in an argument regarding Percy Harvin’s top rated ability in the slot is Wes Welker. And even then, you’ve got an argument on your hands.

Our offense isn’t really set up for this kind of play. With that in mind I’ll list they ways we’re going to have to improve/change to make this work.

First, our offensive line is not terrible but not great. Smash mouth football requires the line to be well smash mouth. Right now we have to many holes. Hutch could do it five years ago, Sully is well he’s not impressive in the middle and Herrera worries me on short passing plays. We don’t get a lot of punch between the tackles and our biggest boys are outside. So that’s strike one against in my mind. Also pass protection, WCO is based off of short passes with YAC making up a large share of the gain. Going to a deeper passing game is going to expose more holes in our O line.

Second, our receiving core is made up of guys who can go across the middle and pick up some solid yards after the catch. We don’t have a lot of speedsters to push the field length wise. Berrian is our best bet but I don’t think anyone sees him as the great hope we once did. Rice can go deep but he’s not a speed threat so will not command the level of respect a true deep guy would and Harvin while great after the catch doesn’t have the height to be dominant deeper down the field.

Third and this really confuses me. We picked up a catching TE in the second round. If they knew we were transitioning to this kind of offense I would see a quick WR or a big guard being picked up here hell even a brand new center… Instead we pick up a TE which is another player who will be catching short passes. Confusing.

This is going to take some time and honestly we’re going to have to see some movement in our team I think to really push this and make it viable. I will say this I don’t envy Ponder dropping back for a seven step pass.

The only thing that does work with this is AD and Gerhart. If we run as much as we’re supposed to using both of them will be rough on the defenses and should keep AD up and fresh for the fourth quarter when he’ll be able to turn on the jets and run away with it a bit more. Of course the problem is since we don’t have a deep threat and most D’s can pressure our QB teams will just start stacking the box again knowing that Ponder won’t have time for his deep routes to open up.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out, I see a trade in the future though maybe Harvin for a deep threat?

I’m slightly disappointed that I don’t see our O-line being capable of dominance in the running game with Sullivan at center. Also, reading between the lines, this article seems to suggest that we’ll be holding onto Berrian after all if we need outside speed — though I wonder if Berrian still has the sort of speed that justifies keeping him.

Anyway, after reading this article, I’m closing my eyes and re-living the second half of the Vikings/Chargers game from Peterson’s rookie season when our O-line absolutely crushed the spirit of the Chargers and Peterson ended up with 296 on the day. That would be fun to see again.

was misused by the previous coaching staff. IMHO, the biggest impact will be on the O line, which was obviously not suited for what had been asked of them before. If I am not mistaken, the majority of linemen in the NFL prefer run blocking to pass blocking, and by a wide margin. It is how they are able to exert their will on the opponent. A return to this philosophy just might turn this ship around.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/123508479.html

here are a few highlights. it is definately a great read on the topic.

Musgrave and coach Leslie Frazier clearly want an unpredictable offense. A final playbook is complete, and although Musgrave mentions West Coast language when discussing the system, there will be significant differences from the very generic version that former coach Brad Childress ran.
.
“We’ll major in giving the ball to Adrian, and we’ll need a quarterback that can keep defenses honest and can have a little bit of movement to himself,” said Musgrave, who was a backup quarterback with Dallas, San Francisco and Denver. “Not just be a statue back there because with the pieces that are in place we won’t be just a drop-back, stay-in-the-pocket type team. We’re going to really attack the defense on the edges both with Adrian and also our quarterback.”

read the rest, it’s good.