Vikings' Offensive Line Actually Not Terrible At Allowing Pressure
by Christopher Gates on Jun 6, 2011 5:43 PM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings
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PrintIf you're not reading Pro Football Focus on a regular basis, you should be. They, along with Football Outsiders, have taken statistical analysis of football to an entirely new level. Their latest article, "Surrendering Pressure," has a very good breakdown of why teams allow as much pressure on the quarterback as they do, and attributing blame where it can actually be attributed.
According to PFF's charting, the Vikings had 597 passing snaps in 2010. Of those 597 passing snaps, there was pressure on the quarterback on 35.01% of those snaps. . .if that sounds like an excessive number, it's not. It actually puts the Vikings as slightly better than league average. The worst team in the NFL in allowing QB pressure in 2010 was the AFC Champion Pittsburgh Steelers, who allowed pressure on a whopping 50.51% of their 681 passing snaps.
Now, the article does put this disclaimer on itself:
So there you have our breakdown of who’s allowing the pressure. You’ll realize there’s a large percentage of pressure unaccounted for, and those are due to unblocked players that come free against roll outs or on overload blitzes, etc. Our goal here, though, is to show where the responsibility lies for all plays that can be attributed.
Where blame can be attributed, they've broken things down into three different categories. . .two that the Vikings actually do relatively well in, and one that they can't help but improve in.
The first category was pressure allowed by the offensive line. According to PFF, the Minnesota Vikings had a cumulative total of 2990 offensive line snaps on passing plays in 2010, and on those snaps, the offensive line was responsible for 146 pressures allowed. So, the offensive line allowed pressure on 4.88% of the snaps that they were on the field for in passing situations. Again, this is right around the league average, placing the Vikings at fifteenth overall in that category. To contrast, the worst team in this category was the Chicago Bears, who allowed pressure on 6.70% of their offensive line snaps.
The second category deals with skill position players, to include running backs, wide receivers, and tight ends. For all the knocks that guys like Adrian Peterson get for their shortcomings in pass blocking, the Vikings were right around league average in this category as well. There were 308 snaps, according to PFF, where Vikings' backs and tight ends or receivers stayed in to block, and they were responsible for 20 pressures on the quarterback, or 6.49% of the time. Again, the Vikings are fifteenth in the league in this category. The worst team in the league in this category was the New Orleans Saints, whose skill position players allowed pressure on 10.51% of their applicable snaps.
Then there's the third category. . .a category called "Quarterback-Invited Pressures." To put it bluntly, these are quarterback pressures that are caused due to the quarterback holding on to the ball too long. . .or, as PFF puts it, "the quarterback holding on to the ball too long and inviting pressure upon himself." The Vikings. . .well, the Vikings didn't fare so well in this category. And by "didn't fare so well," what I mean is "finished dead last in the NFL." So, between Brett Favre, Tarvaris Jackson, and Joe Webb, at least some of the pressure that the Vikings' offense allowed was due to quarterbacks holding on to the football too long.
So, maybe the Vikings' offensive line wasn't all that terrible after all. Given the injuries to Steve Hutchinson, Phil Loadholt, Anthony Herrera, and stuff we don't even know about, things like this gives yours truly a bit of reason for optimism that the Minnesota pass offense will look better in 2011.
What do you folks make of all this? Am I interpreting these things correctly?
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I’m with you Chris. I’ve mentioned before how every starter along the offensive line missed time with or played with injuries all of last season. Just getting everyone back healthy will have them taking a step up. A lot of the sabermetrics that PFF calculates I feel are better when looking over multiple seasons than at individual seasons, but if the Vikings O-line is about average when everyone is playing hurt then they are going to be mauling D-lines when healthy.
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What is the Vikes’ starting 5 looking like this year anyway?
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If I had to guess
Four of the starters, I’m guessing, are set. . .McKinnie at left tackle, Hutchinson at left guard, Sullivan (regrettably) at center, and Loadholt at right tackle. Right guard is going to be up for grabs, I think. . .could be Herrera, depending on how well he comes back from his ACL tear, could be Chris DeGeare, our fifth rounder from last year that looked good filling in for Herrera, could even be DeMarcus Love, our sixth-rounder from this past season.
I wish we could get ourselves an upgrade from Sullivan. . .although Sullivan’s shortcomings could be due to injuries as well. . .but I don’t think we’ll be too bad this year.
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by Christopher Gates on Jun 6, 2011 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
No chance in your book then
of Brandon Fusco having any shot at fighting for the Center spot? Not saying he should get it or will lock it down, but Sully really didn’t impress me much last season what with the snapping problem and all. My understanding is that calf injuries can’t excuse that problem… and it’s a pretty huge one, IMO.
Dear Yahoo! Sports: Please stop using that picture of Brett Favre holding his shoulder on the sidelines whenever you write about the Vikings. That is all, thank you.
Daily Norseman
Sullivan's calf wasn't injured in 2009
and he stunk then, too
Agreed.
I also found that Sullivan seemed to be turned the wrong way on a noticeable number of plays. There result of which is that defenders got past him effectively untouched as he assisted with blocking defenders who were already engaged with another Vikings lineman. I don’t think the calf impacts which way the head is turned.
good links and interesting way to look at the topic differently.
the article links to the “pff pressure reveals” article as well. i thought that was a good read to go along with what you posted. i still am none too pleased with what happened all too often. >>> like this freaking hit <<<.
how does PFF rate that WFF hit? or how ’bout this fine interpretation of mckinnie >>> the human turnstile <<<.
well, this must have been >>> an abberation <<<. and this little mix tape must have been >>> a total fluke <<<.
oh well, at least they are our 300 pound stuffed animals. they look so coooot in those widdo purple uniforms.
one thing that would be good to see analyzed is the average amount of time the qb took to release the ball. it seems like favre was getting rid of it very quickly a lot of the time. i know ben roethlisberger will hold on to it a long time and shift around in the pocket until he finds an opportunity to pull the trigger. pittsburgh had the highest pff pressure-per-play percentage. but big ben also had one of the highest qbr’s, y/a and td-int ratios in the league. and the steelers went to the dang super bowl.
well, i’m sure they will be covering more, as they said it is the first in a week long series of articles on pass sprotection. you should make a fanpost series to coincide with it !!! cuz, this is pretty interesting stuff.
but all it takes is one good hit
and in the case of favre two really good hits to put you down and out. so sugar coat our o line all you want, our line let people through faster than the mn pass for the diamond lane .anyone missing matt burke yet ?
Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics
According to their data, the Vikings O-line came in at #15 in the NFL, which is respectable.
Out of 2990 pass protection plays, the Vikings O-line only permitted 146 “pressures” on the QB. Really? That’s 2990 pass attempts, and they’re saying that only about once in 20 pass attempts, did the Vikings O-line allow pressure on the QB.
Amazing numbers. Really, really amazing. The more I look at them, the more amazed I am, most particularly at how utterly divorced they are from reality when it comes to the 2010 Vikings. Sorry Chris, I can’t buy into this one. I know what I watched happen last year, and if the Vikings O-line was average, the NFL has an awful lot of crappy O-linemen.
What are they not considering? All the times that someone walked around the end or came through the center, completely unopposed, so the O-line doesn’t take the rap for that? They handled their guys, that’s all they’re expected to do?
Things weren’t so great in Minnesota, where Brett Favre held onto the ball too long, struggling to cope without Sidney Rice. Joe Flacco also had some problems in Baltimore, always seeming to want more time. Those are some of the less excusable names at the bottom, as opposed to the more understandable feature of Philadelphia at No. 29. When you have a player like Michael Vick you can let plays develop and pressure come because he can get out of it and turn it into something.
And in Minnesota’s case, they had a guy like Joe Webb, who could scramble or run, or just fling DEs out of his way when he needed more time. As for Favre, his receivers bear a LOT of the responsibility for the dropped balls season as well. But since everything comes down to the QB’s fault until if and when the ball is completely in the possession of the receiver (or RB), it’s so much easier to blame Favre. Favre, the future HoF QB who was a master of the ridiculously quick release, gets the blame for ‘holding onto the ball too long’.
How is a QB ‘pressured pass’ defined? If Favre takes the snap and 1 second later, dumps the ball off to Shanko or Berrian on the side, was he hurried, or pressured, even if no lineman came near him?
Man, we can’t dispense with the strike and get the season rolling fast enough.
Ah, ah,
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From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
By "pressures"
I think the stat analyzed when a man came running at the QB’s without being picked up; say a LB, Safety, or CB. Otherwize, I agree that the stat is a little bit shakey. No doubt Brett’s interior clock was about a second off though. Ponder’s clock will be much better, and I think we’ll have a borderline playoff team next year or the year after.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on - Winston Churchill
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jun 6, 2011 9:09 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
the 2990 number isn’t the number of pass plays (that was 597) it’s the cumulative passing snaps for the oline. for example. 5 linemen black on 1 pass play, that’s 5 cumulative passing snaps (one for each blocker involved, 2990/5 is 598 so i assume there were a few plays where there were 6 ‘linemen’ blocking because that’s 1 more than the 597 actual pass plays). there were 146 pressures attributed to the line on those plays (597 * 35.01% is 209 pressures total), 20 pressures attributed to backs, tight ends and receivers, which leaves 43 attributed to the qb.
by iseepurplepeople on Jun 7, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Hm
These “stats” don’t seem to match up with what I saw last season. But then again it could be accurate that we are just somewhere right in the middle.
You read it wrong!
…I only say that cuz it disagrees with a mantra of mine. Please ignore that.
It is an interesting read to be sure. I would have thought that the Vikings would have fared much worse than that, particularly with skill position players blocking- Kleinsasser, I’m guessing, might have shot our average up.
That said, I wonder about the fact of the ‘QB invited pressure’. It’s a good statistic and a great way to read it- no O-line, even one created by having the best of each position in the NFL, can hold off an assault forever. It’s up to the QB to get the ball into play. It’s very curious, though, as I read an article a good while back that said that Brett Favre, last season, had one of the fastest releases in the NFL, and that because of it, he helped keep pressure off of the O-line. I’m going to have to find that article, if it even still exists- this was about 2-3 months ago, I’m guessing.
Another thought I had regarding that particular statistic is what I see in certain O-lines, like with the Patriots, for example- they give their QBs plenty of time to hang onto the ball. Sometimes, a QB just has to be patient, and the O-line needs to give them an extra second or two to allow a great play to develop. Of course, statistics often betray weaknesses in what we perceive, what looked like an all-day pocket for Brady may not have statistically been so.
Good article, good read.
Dear Yahoo! Sports: Please stop using that picture of Brett Favre holding his shoulder on the sidelines whenever you write about the Vikings. That is all, thank you.
Daily Norseman
A question and idea to Chris, Ted, Skol Girl, and Kyle:
Do you guys, and girl, have access to every game? If so you should look at every passing play (or a more reasonable number, like ten passes per game) time how long the ball is held and find the average time the ball is held.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on - Winston Churchill
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jun 6, 2011 9:23 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
By the way: I think the article meant quick release as how fast he can get the ball out of his hands, not the time he holds the ball to when he releases it.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on - Winston Churchill
by Alittlemore_cowbell on Jun 6, 2011 9:42 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I've got a question for everyone
How many times did you see Favre throw the ball away this past season? Could be more accurate than we’re thinking.
Skol!
Do you mean out of bounds or to the other team? : )
Favre held the ball a lot last year and rarely, if ever, threw the ball away. A ranking of our O-line as 15th in the league is not that far-fetched. It isn’t like this article says the line was good, it just says that they were average and our QB play was as bad as any team in the league. If you go by QB passer rating than this holds true as only Carolina had a worse team QB rating than the Vikings last year.
by CanadianViking on Jun 7, 2011 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
Good point, the thing is that average isn’t something we’re used to in our line so it looks terrible to us. Also if you don’t think a QB can affect pressure then you weren’t watching Green Bay last year when Rodgers was getting murdered. All of a sudden they changed his play to quick drops and bam his pressure dropped a crap load.
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
Yeah, 15th seems about right for the Vikings line.
At times they were awful, but the majority of the time they were around the middle of the pack in mediocrity. I really hope Degeare or Demarcus Love can take over the RG spot this year as that position and C seemed to be the weakest part of the line to me last year. I think a lot of Loadholt’s regression from his first year and increase in penalties were due to him trying to cover up for Hererra, Cook, and Degeare at RG. The thing that gives me hope is that 3/5 ths of the line was injured for about half the season so the line as a whole can’t perform much worse than it did last year. I also think the depth is a little better this year with Degeare, Fusco, and Love being better backups than last years squad.
by CanadianViking on Jun 8, 2011 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting "on paper" statistical analysis.....
but, it does not take into account the “cringe factor”, the unnerving feeling that came over me last season with nearly every snap of the ball. The anticipation of BF or TJ getting his head torn off or AP being dropped for yet another loss behind the line of scrimmage contributed greatly to this physiological condition.
You KNOW it is a sloooooowwwww off season when our O line is getting positive coverage.
Like a few others, I'm not buying it
I know what I saw, and it wasn’t pretty. These statistics remind me of the Baltimore Police Department’s crime reporting approach as acted out on “The Wire.” By reclassifying crimes, they made it look (on paper) as if major crimes were in decline. However the fact was that the citizens of Baltimore could see with their own eyes that things were as bad as ever and getting worse. In the same way, I’m going to believe my own eyes over these stats.
I get it, but they used the same criteria for every team in the NFL
I don’t think it’s necessarily saying that our OL is great by any means, but it’s better than most in the NFL.
Skol!
My lying eyes?
Just saying there is a magic number that the line is supposed to hold off the defense it’s not long. Anything after that is bonus time and the QB has to know it.
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
that was a bit before the magic time.
The really bad part is that usually when you see this picture the plays still going on.. :D
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
Only Half the Story
I haven’t read the rest of the comments, so I’m sorry for duplication if anyone has mentioned this previously; but I’m pretty sure that pass blocking is only half of an offensive linemen’s responsibility. I just want to ask a few questions which I feel can be somewhat of a litmus test for the run-blocking ability of our current offensive linemen: How many times last year did we see the best running back in the league run into a wall of stood up or pushed back offensive lineman? When was the last time we saw one of our offensive lineman “blow up” a defender and create a gaping hole? When have we seen [in recent memory] our offensive linemen getting to the second level to make a block down field? I can’t remember any of these scenarios taking place last year. Now, I’m sure occasionally they did, but definitely not consistently. I believe that if the OL were even average when run blocking, Adrian Peterson would run for over 1,500 yards annually. I’ll give you the benefit of my own doubts that the Vikings OL were average against the pass last year, but that does not tell the whole story of our offensive linemen’s subpar season.
Those are good thoughts vc
I think Chris probably nailed the starters (I’m not familiar with Brandon Fusco), but I would be interested to see what free agency might hold. Any ideas on that anyone?
Things should get better
When we change the offensive line blocking techniques. McKinnie and Loadholt aren’t suited to zone blocking – too slow, not nimble enough against faster and lighter DEs.
But at man blocking they will do very well. Just tell your 6ft 7 in and 6ft 8 in 350lb roadgraders to pancake the guy across from them.
i'd say, "if" not "when"
i agree in thinking we should change blocking schemes, but we don’t “know” that it will happen yet.
i hope so, but as far as i could find reported, there are only some hints both ways.
they published a second article on the topic today...
called “pressure into sacks” or the percentage of times that pressure = sacking favre’s ass.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/07/pressure-into-sacks/
ranked ..#6 = detroit (best in nfcn)
ranked #19 = green butt
ranked #23 = vikings
ranked #29 = bears (worst in nfcn)
and another previous article relevant to the topic..."beating the blitz"
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/12/beating-the-blitz/
favre was 12th most blitzed
favre was 24th in comp. percent when blitzed
favre was 23rd on pff’s grading list when blitzed
Considering...
Favre isn’t one to shy away from throwing into close coverage, this really makes me wonder about our receivers. And I hope I have seen the last of Berrian in a Vikes uniform.
they published a third article in the series today,..."extra blockers"
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/08/extra-blockers/
it measures the average number of blockers kept in to block per pass play.
ranked ..#1 = detroit 5.31/play (least in the league)
ranked #13 = vikings 5.52 (average middle of the pack)
ranked #25 = puckers 5.67 (most third of league)
ranked #29 = da bears 5.75 (nearly the most in the league)
so far the bears o-line is the suckiest of all in the nfcn and practically league-wide.
their o-line coach was none other than mike tice. thankfully we don’t have him.
bears ranked 29th in pressure into sacks
bears ranked 29th in blockers per play
bears ranked 29th as a rushing o-line
bears ranked 23rd in rushing y/a (3.9)
bears ranked 32nd in sacks alwd (56)
bears ranked 32nd in passing yards
(per footballoutsiders,com, nflstats,com
and pro-football-reference,com sources)
Okay. Yes.
The Bears O-ilne has been worse than the Vikings particularly over the last three years. However, they’ve been working to improve their line. I’m not sure we can say the same about ours. I wish we had Tice back.
Wait young padwan wait.
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
at least you keep an open mind about his past success.
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
except that his past performance as an o-line coach is not good...and worse last year.
tice became the bears o-line coach last year. the bears o-line got significantly worse last year. that is just a fact you can’t ignore, and can’t try to talk away.
when tice became the vikes o-line coach in ‘97, he inherited steussie, mcdaniel, christy, dixon and stringer. that’s (3) 1st rounders and 4 pro bowl players. and he eventually replaced christy with matt birk, another pro bowler. plus, we were stacked with a lot of offensive weapons. but, he had a lot of fall off his last 2 years. then took over hc during the 2001
(we went 5-11 an gave up 47 sacks).
i say any success the vikings had was based on the players we had, plus the denny green system (all offense, no defense). getting randy moss in ’98 created serious mis-match situations that led to team success. mike tice did not show that he could make the team better. the team o-line performance declined under his coaching once the pre-existing first round talent left the team.
other than that, he coached o-line last year. and the 56 sacks, 29th-32nd in the league in important stats, which is significantly worse than the year before, with essentially the same line. that speaks loud and clear. why you love him is beyond me, at least you are not a coach.
i think tice is still looking for his pencil….now, where is that nice avatar i picked out?
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