Training Camp Notes And Closing The Book On The 2006 Draft Class
by Ted Glover on Aug 1, 2011 5:25 PM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings 2011 Season
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The first day of training camp is underway in Mankato, and there is a lot of info to get to. Thanks to Tom Pelissero and Judd Zulgad for the majority of this info from the Twitters.
New offensive lineman Charlie Johnson will get a look at tackle and guard. He was a LT for Indianapolis last year, and Pro Football Focus had him rated as the 44th ranked T in the NFL, with a rating of (-9.9). However, a closer look shows that outside of a terrible opening game against Mario Williams and Houston, where he came out of that game with a (-9.8) rating, he was league average (Bryant McKinnie was 16th over all, with a 3.8 rating). If it was me, I move Johnson over to the right side, and it's a dramatic upgrade over Phil Loadholt, who was one of the worst tackles in the league last year (a rating of -22.8 overall...yikes). And with the addition of Johnson and the intent to look at him up and down the line, you would think that barring a great camp, it might spell the end of Ryan Cook.
Assuming that's the case, let's close the book on the 2006 draft class...after the jump.
In 2006, the Vikings draft class comprised of:
| 1 | Chad Greenway | Iowa | |
| 2 | Cedric Griffin | Texas | |
| 2 | Ryan Cook | New Mexico | |
| 2 | Tarvaris Jackson | Alabama State | |
| 4 | Ray Edwards | Purdue | |
| 5 | Greg Blue | Georgia |
This was the first Brad Childress coached draft, and the results are mixed, to be kind. Overall, I'm going to give a grade of C, as Greenway and Griffin have been solid contributors. And of the three second round picks that were selected, only Griffin remains, and he's coming off of his second serious knee injury in as many seasons.
Cook? An okay sub, but as a second round guy you should be at least a league average starter, and Cook isn't. He was an adequate sub along the line, but not a never was good enough to win a permanent starting job. Too much time on the field exposed Cook, and he was overpowered.
Tarvaris Jackson. Abject failure, now in Seattle. We've discussed this enough.
Ray Edwards. Above average player for the VIkings who didn't get the big payday he wanted here. Now in Atlanta. We've talked about him enough, too.
Greg Blue. You weren't their boy, Blue. Looked like this kid had a ton of potential after one season, but dropped off dramatically and was gone after one year. So five years in, there are only two players left from the 2006 draft, a time in careers where players are entering or in their prime.
Speaking of Cedric Griffin, he's working with the first team, but they're bringing him along slow to ensure he will be ready for the season opener against San Diego. He's currently wearing a compression sleeve on his leg (Pelissero tweets). It will be good to see Griff back out there, and if healthy, him and Antoine Winfield will be one of the better CB tandems in the NFL. But the safeties...
The first team offensive line was (from L to R) Thomas Welch, Hutch, Sullivan, DeGeare, Loadholt. Tom Pelissero confirms that Bryant McKinnie is on the non-football injury list, and Anthony Herrera is on the training camp/PUP list, which he can come off of at any time.
WR Jaymar Johnson is working with the first team in place of Michael Jenkins (who can't practice until the 4th)...and Bernard Berrian. Pelissero also confirms Berrian restructured his contract. Hmmm....
So, Bernard Berrian is officially part of your WR corps, and I would have to think that on the outside, you've got Jenkins and BB, Percy in the slot, with Jaymar Johnson and Greg Camarillo fighting it out for the fourth WR slot.
QB Joe Webb is running the first team...but calm down Spiderman fans, that's just until McNabb can start practicing.
According to Judd Zulgad, Coach Frazier had Jim Kleinsasser speak to the team about Korey Stringer. Kleinsasser is the only guy remaining from the 2001 roster, and it was Jimmy K's second year in the league. Man, can't believe it's been 10 years.
So, that's the latest from camp. What are your feelings with one practice under the belt?
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What was
McKinnie’s non-football injury?
…a hangover?
#PPStldrUmadbro- Tweet in support of Chris Kluwe! Daily Norseman
Can't find anything
Vikes aren’t talking about it
The first round, a 5.56-mm. bullet, struck bin Laden in the chest. As he fell backward, the SEAL fired a second round into his head, just above his left eye. On his radio, he reported, "For God and country—Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."
Per Pelissero:
McKinnie said he didn’t fail a conditioning test. Why’s he out? “Because I have some issues with my something … I just got some issues.”
The first round, a 5.56-mm. bullet, struck bin Laden in the chest. As he fell backward, the SEAL fired a second round into his head, just above his left eye. On his radio, he reported, "For God and country—Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."
Saw on Twitter...
he commented that ‘conditioning will help his condition’. Per Jeremy Fowler.
…not sure if that’s Fowler cracking a joke, or if McKinnie actually said that, though…
Conditioning will help his condition? WTF?
#PPStldrUmadbro- Tweet in support of Chris Kluwe! Daily Norseman
mckinnie is eating too much mcdonalds and could be mcpayin for it.
TomPelissero (from twitter): Putting McKinnie on NFI is significant because #Vikings can withhold pay. He’s due a $500K roster bonus and $250K workout bonus this year.
@warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Yep if he's way over weight they may be thinking about tossing his flabby ass.
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
Tennis Elbow
But more likely didn’t make weight…
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
Not well according to Judd
Overthrowing a lot of players or just flat out missing them.
Eww. That's disappointing.
Maybe that’s why everyone kept saying it looked like a spring OTA.
How’d Ponder do?
i have always wondered, what does sponsoring of the DN actually entail?
As per our safety situation, can’t both Griiffen and Cook play safety?
not both of them
wasn’t this one of the tags that cook carried last year, the ability to play both positions?
They must be hoping that between Abdullah and the list of "meh"s we have at safety, we can at least be competant at the position
I’m thinking they don’t want to move some FROM CB to S too soon because of the uncertainty of the health of our CBs(namely Griffin). If there’s enough issues throughout training camp, maybe they make a move and put Cook back there in a preseason game or two to see how he does. I’m assuming they just don’t want to commit that that this early. No OTAs killed us.
Skol!
He has the size and the range to play the position...
But he has never played at the safety position.
Enough with the knocks on Loadholt...
Sophomore slump + injured interior line + old geezer @ QB = bad rating.
eh, actually it looks like he got worked
That being said, I still think the guy has a ton of talent and can improve markedly, but there’s no secret that it’s sk8 or die for him this year.
Skol!
why??
he was borderline top 10 in penalties his rookie year, and in the top 10 last year. looks like a pattern, not a slump. can’t blame that on anyone except himself. Loadholt has his work cut out for him this season, and he deserves the knocks until he proves he can do better.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Borderline top 10?
Where do you get these stats? I don’t see them anywhere on the internets.
Besides, if you are not getting penalized, you are not trying hard enough. I can understand if he is getting false starts, but his penalties are mostly facemasks from getting beat to the outside when trying to compensate for the weak interior line.
I would rather have a guy who gets a 15 yard facemask penalty and keeps our QB upright than a guy who lets the DE blow past him and destroy our QB.
here is loadholt's stats from an interesting stat site i just found...
http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=9318&team=16
@warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
that's exactly where i got my stats
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
So that says he got 11 penalties...
I am missing the part about him being top 10 in penalties though.
IIRC...
he was tied for 11th his rookie year with 7 penalties.
it’s fairly reasonable to say he was easily top 10 with 11 penalties the following year.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
I still don't see the references to him being among the leaders.
Where do you find the stats stating he was tied for 11th his rookie year?
it's worse than i remembered -- he was actually IN the Top 10
see here for more info, but here’s the list of most penalized players in ’09:
14: Alex Barron, STLthe total differs slightly from the hosted.stats site, but there you have it.
13: Flozell Adams, DAL
13: Andrew Whitworth, CIN
13: Jeremy Trueblood, TB
13: Cornell Green, OAK
12: Vernon Davis, SF
12: Phil Loadholt, MIN
11: Levi Brown, ARI
11: Brett Favre, MIN
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
That is what I was looking for, some references.
Though those stats are for his rookie year, and your claim was that he was in the top ten last year.
I did find a listing stating Loadholt had 7 False starts alone in 2010.
i know, though...
…with 11 or 13 or 14 penalties (depending on your source), it’s very safe to assume Loadholt was in the top ten again. it may be a stretch to assume that for some, but not for me — either way, he commits FAR too many and needs to keep that in check this season.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
...huh??
if you are not getting penalized, you are not trying hard enough.
that’s an awful justification, man. that’s like saying if a QB isn’t throwing interceptions, he isn’t taking enough risks. what sense does that make??
I would rather have a guy who gets a 15 yard facemask penalty and keeps our QB upright than a guy who lets the DE blow past him and destroy our QB.
i’d rather have a guy who can block a DE worth a damn. weird.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
that’s an awful justification, man. that’s like saying if a QB isn’t throwing interceptions, he isn’t taking enough risks. what sense does that make??
That is not even close to a parallel of what I said, but nice try.
Penalties happen on every single play, the deciding factor as to whether or not a flag is thrown is how severe the infraction. A pass is either an interception or it is not, there is no grey area.
i’d rather have a guy who can block a DE worth a damn. weird.
So would I. But that is not what we are discussing here.
Here is a good question. Forgetting about their age difference, would you rather have McKinnie or Loadholt on the team?
I would rather have a guy who tries hard and gets a few more penalties trying to protect the QB than a guy who could give a rat’s ass and let’s the old fart get blasted.
actually, it is a close parallel
Penalties happen on every single play, the deciding factor as to whether or not a flag is thrown is how severe the infraction. A pass is either an interception or it is not, there is no grey area.
look back at what you said — “if you are not getting penalized, you are not trying hard enough.” you made your comment under the reasoning that a player is called for a penalty, not whether a flag was thrown or not. you’re either penalized, or you’re not — just like an INT is thrown, or it isn’t.
you’re trying to backpedal on extremely bad reasoning. are you saying if an OLineman isn’t holding a DE he isn’t trying hard enough?? that 15yd facemask penalties are justified?? i can’t see how you can defend your original statement.
Here is a good question. Forgetting about their age difference, would you rather have McKinnie or Loadholt on the team?
honestly, i would have taken McKinnie (this of course before he bloated up to 400lbs). compare their stats — while McKinnie allowed a few more sacks, he was certainly facing better talent on his side of the line. and yes, he gave up on a few plays and Favre got rocked for it, but he was solid in run blocking and never gave up penalties. Loadholt consistently committed false starts and, as i’ve already pointed out, was clearly amongst league leaders in penalties.
all of this is pointless to argue about, anyway — McKinnie is gone, and Loadholt will either be better or he won’t.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Backpedaling? No.
I still maintain that as an O-linemen, if you are not getting penalized, then you are not trying hard enough. There is a large grey area in O-line penalties (aside from Facemasks, which are pretty cut and dry).
What is considered a hold by one official is not by another, what is considered clipping by one, is not by another. If you do not push the boundaries of what is acceptable then you are not trying hard enough.
Randy Moss got away with push-off after push-off because he worked it constantly. He was always pushing that boundary so he knew what he could get away with. The same goes for O-linemen.
are you saying if an OLineman isn’t holding a DE he isn’t trying hard enough??
Yes, that is what I am saying. With the caveat that you hold while trying to make it look like you are not holding. That is what a block is, controlled holding.
Loadholt consistently committed false starts and, as i’ve already pointed out, was clearly amongst league leaders in penalties.
I don’t recall seeing a lot of false starts on Loadholt.
And just because you pointed out that he had 11 penalties does not mean you pointed out that he is clearly amongst the leaders. 11 penalties is less than 1 per game, which is not excessive IMO.
we'll have to agree to disagree on this point:
I still maintain that as an O-linemen, if you are not getting penalized, then you are not trying hard enough.
there are several OLineman, the best in the league, who seldom (if ever) are called for penalties b/c they are that dominant. everyone on our line should strive for that, instead of making up for inadequacies by creating penalties.
If you do not push the boundaries of what is acceptable then you are not trying hard enough.
but a legal block is considered the same across the board… so shouldn’t the players step up their game and block well, instead of seeing what they can get away with??
Randy Moss got away with push-off after push-off because he worked it constantly. He was always pushing that boundary so he knew what he could get away with. The same goes for O-linemen.
that’s a fair point, but again, that shouldn’t be how players conducts themselves every down. Moss has also been flagged plenty of times for the push-off, so let’s not pretend it’s an all-magical works-every-time trick.
Yes, that is what I am saying. With the caveat that you hold while trying to make it look like you are not holding. That is what a block is, controlled holding.
…i don’t even know what to say. you can block w/o gripping — that’s what elite players do. they have quick feet and a powerful stance and don’t need to physically hold back a defender. look, we clearly disagree on this point. if a player gets away with a hold, good for them — but their mindset should not be “i’m gonna hold this guy and make it look like i’m not holding him”. c’mon, man.
I don’t recall seeing a lot of false starts on Loadholt.
then you weren’t paying attention — “Loadholt had a promising rookie season in 2009 but he struggled at times this past season. He was called for 14 penalties, including seven false starts. That was tied for the fourth-most in the league, according to ESPN research. Three players were tied for first with eight false starts.”
i know i’m rough on Loadholt, but i have my reasons — i don’t think many fans are privy to just how bad he was in terms of penalties and false starts; and even if they are, they chalk it up to a young player making mistakes. to me, that many penalties and false starts are unforgivable, even for a first or second yr player.
And just because you pointed out that he had 11 penalties does not mean you pointed out that he is clearly amongst the leaders. 11 penalties is less than 1 per game, which is not excessive IMO.check my post above regarding the penalty leaders in ‘09. if the league leader had 14 penalties, i think it’s safe to say 11 is enough to put you in the mix with the leaders, even the following year. (that’s even with 11, not the 14 Chip Scoggins listed above…!!)
and if you think 11 is “not excessive”, again, we are not on the same page in this argument… double-digit penalties is very excessive…!!
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
there are several OLineman, the best in the league, who seldom (if ever) are called for penalties b/c they are that dominant.
I am willing to bet that most of those O-linemen you are referring to are veterans and have seen a marked decrease in penalties over the years.
so shouldn’t the players step up their game and block well, instead of seeing what they can get away with?
Of course they should step up their game and block well, but that is not the nature of a big money sport like this one. Just like in every other sport, these athletes will do everything they can within the boundaries of the rules to get an edge.
Spygate is a prime example. Every team out there watches the opposing teams signals hoping to glean some information as to what plays they are calling. Belichick got in trouble because he took a common practice one step further and started video taping them.
If you think that the best players in the league are not pushing the boundaries of what is legal and what is not, then you are a bit delusional. No offense.
Moss has also been flagged plenty of times for the push-off, so let’s not pretend it’s an all-magical works-every-time trick.
Never said it was. My only claim is that he pushed the boundaries so often that he knew what he could get away with and what he couldn’t. The only way he knew that is through trial and error, and the errors are indicated by flags.
you can block w/o gripping — that’s what elite players do.
Well… I see plenty of gripping from elite players. Gripping a jersey or a shoulder pad is what they do to maintain leverage.
but their mindset should not be "i’m gonna hold this guy and make it look like i’m not holding him". c’mon, man.
I will reiterate my point. Holding happens on every single play. It is the severity of the hold that determines whether or not a penalty is called.
If you don’t think players will do all they can to be the best, then please refer to my comment above about delusions.
then you weren’t paying attention
I may not have been paying attention to who committed the false starts. I should ease up on the IPA during games. But after last season… Can you blame me?
Maybe 11 penalties is excessive… It just didn’t sound like it to me. I confess I have not tracked penalty stats over the years so less than one penalty per game for a young O-linemen does not sound excessive.
none taken
If you think that the best players in the league are not pushing the boundaries of what is legal and what is not, then you are a bit delusional. No offense.
it’s all good — the point i’m trying to emphasize is that playing well (i.e. “legally”) should be the frame of mind players take — not playing sub-par and seeing what they can “get away with”.
like stealing offensive signals — sure, if you can decipher what they are, but you’re better off putting together a stout D and concentrate on that, as opposed to trying so hard to steal the signals to make up for inadequacies.
My only claim is that he pushed the boundaries so often that he knew what he could get away with and what he couldn’t. The only way he knew that is through trial and error, and the errors are indicated by flags.
and that’s true — but it became habitual. when a player crosses the line so often that it becomes a crutch to their game, it’s a problem. such is the case with Loadholt and penalties, i fear — if he steps up his game this year and cuts down on the penalties (and false starts), i’ll ease up on him a great deal. hopefully these are just the growing pains of a young player and won’t become a consistent issue for him.
I should ease up on the IPA during games. But after last season… Can you blame me?
NO NO!! easing up on the IPA would be a travesty… better to sacrifice knowing who committed however many penalties, especially after a season like last year… certainly can’t blame you for that!!
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
hmmmm
Maybe the Vikings are actually trying to trade McKinney. Wouldn’t that be a sigh of relief, having that slacker gone.
Good news everybody!
Keven Siefert is reporting that BB has restructured his contract and will be a FA after the 2012 season. That’s why he didn’t practice today and can’t start until the 4th Link
Well...
I can honestly say I have no problem with him being with the Vikings, so long as his contract matches his production. Hopefully whatever it is he’s signed to now is incentive heavy.
#PPStldrUmadbro- Tweet in support of Chris Kluwe! Daily Norseman
Yeah
Good to hear they’ve done that. Even better to hear about the signing Charlie Johnson. Been a good news day for the Vikes, aside of it being 10 years since the death of Korey Stringer and 4 years since the bridge collapse.
by christian220896 on Aug 1, 2011 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I am not sure it is over just yet
They did the same thing with Bobby Wade. Get him to restructure and then cut him.
They also could be trying to get a team to trade for him. Even a 6th round pick is better than nothing. I expect they will try to showcase him during the preseason. They can wait a bit as there will be some injuries.
But they definitely should trade him or cut him no matter what. After his performance last year when they really needed him the MOST, how can anyone give him a pass?
Imagine if they keep Berrian and cut Camarillo?
If this was Childress
I would almost expect the restructure and cut thing. Frazier doesn’t strike me as that type of guy.
Granted, things can change and the circumstances surrounding the WR position could change overnight, but I’s be kind of surprised at this point to see the Vikes cut Berrian.
The first round, a 5.56-mm. bullet, struck bin Laden in the chest. As he fell backward, the SEAL fired a second round into his head, just above his left eye. On his radio, he reported, "For God and country—Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."
One small thing
So, Bernard Berrian is officially part of your WR corps, and I would have to think that on the outside, you’ve got Jenkins and BB, Percy in the slot,
Percy will probably line up in the slot a lot in 3 receiver sets (though Camarillo can play that position too) but I want to make sure no one mistakes that for him being our 3rd WR. If we run a 2 TE formation with just two split wide, you better believe Harvin will be on the field almost all the time.
Yeah, he's going to be asked to do A LOT out there
We’ll see what Devin and Jenkins bring to the table. They’ve both got some skills so we may not be overly dependent on Percy. Besides, percy is SO MUCH better when he’s not the focal part of the offense. We want teams to keep forgetting about him.
Skol!
In a 2 TE set, Percy will still be technically in the slot
As he will be off the LOS and can be put in motion to create mismatches.
"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
On McKinney
Apparently he didn’t keep his promise about getting down to his collage playing weight this off-season. from what I read, he’s gotten bigger, then he was last year…… I’m deeply ashamed of him, he broke his promise. tsk, tsk,tsk.
Can we trade him for a cooler of gatorade or something?
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!
I don't know
That might be a long shot. Gatorade is more helpful then McKinnie
Apparently he just does what he wants, eats what he wants, plays when he wants...
What a pitiful waste of talent.
line
i have to say you need to look at the line again. yes loadholt had a hard time last year but his partner on the line in gaurd was a rotating table. and alot of the time the qb would roll to his side exposing themselves more. mckinnie has always been the most overrated tackle . he is always beaten by speed rushers. i cant believe that they have kept him around as long as the have. they usually roll away from his side and roll rbs or tes to his side to help him. phil did not recieve half the help the slow mountain did. so you need to look at all the factors involved. kind of hard to protect somebody who keeps rolling to your side and out of containment and you dont know who is your backup with gaurd and have to cover for him
Still McKinney's rating was better (a lot better) than anyone else that is currently on our team...
So it’s hard to hate on him to much when the guy that will probably be filling in for him is worse…
Childress gone, TJack gone, new stadium on the way: it's like that Christmas when Santa brought prostitutes!
Last good offensive lineman drafted by Minnesota:
Matt Birk, round 6 in 1998.
This team rarely picks them early (McKinnie 1st and Marcus Johnson 2nd) and when they do, there are the results. Yech.
saaaay...since when was AP in a Michael Bay flick...??
nice framing…
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
new news from Clayton
@ClaytonESPN
John Clayton
Braylon Edwards is looking at about four teams, including Minn, Ariz and Tenn
by valhallas_own28 on Aug 1, 2011 10:42 PM CDT reply actions
Tenn makes sense
especially with Kenny Britt possibly facing disciplinary action.
though AZ could make a push to try and keep Fitz happy.
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
Cook? An okay sub, but as a second round guy you should be at least a league average starter, and Cook isn’t. He was an adequate sub along the line, but not a never was good enough to win a permanent starting job. Too much time on the field exposed Cook, and he was overpowered
.
Cook was a starter. Then they drafted Loadholt, and IMO he hasn’t been any better. When Cook was the starting RT, AP had his best years. Now I’m not saying that Cook was the only reason, or even the main reason for said success. But the loss of Birk and Cook being replaced are the 2 changes made on on the oline since 07. \
As far as Cook being overpowered, I’d have to strongly argue against that point. The dude is a mauler. I think what did him in was penalties and he struggled some against the speed rush. But again, we haven’t seen much better with Loadholt in both regards. And Cook is a better run blocker than Load.
"I am patient with stupidity but not with those who are proud of it."
It's not Loadholt's fault
That Packer face masks look tantalizingly similar to french fries.
by Jepp The Viking on Aug 2, 2011 12:37 PM CDT reply actions
...it...
{insert comment about Edit button here}
"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."
Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.
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