Point/CounterPoint: It's Time To Start Christian Ponder
by Ted Glover on Sep 26, 2011 6:00 AM CDT
in Minnesota Vikings 2011 Season
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So Chris and I were chatting earlier, and we came to a gentleman's disagreement regarding the Vikings quarterback situation. I'll present my argument here, and Chris will present his incredibly wrong opinion in a following article, heh heh.
Point: It's time to look to the future and start Christian Ponder.
'Wow Ted', you're thinking, 'way to go out on a limb there.'
You know if this were the Cadillac Bike Build Off between the dysfunctional Teutel family, my argument, at least in terms of popularity right now, is the equivalent of Paul Jr's version of the Cadillac bike (Jr's bike beat Senior's 96% to 4% in online voting).
It's hip, it's modern, and most importantly, it's what the Vikings should do.
More quality reasoning, after the jump.
Let's not blow sunshine up our skirts anymore, boys and girls...the Minnesota Vikings aren't going to the playoffs, they aren't going to finish at .500, and you could make an argument that the Vikings are going to be hard pressed to find four wins on their schedule. In the Minnesota locker room, every player knows that since 1990, two teams that have started the season at 0-3 made the playoffs. The Vikings aren't going to be the third. Oh, they're going to say the right things, but they know.
Watching Donovan McNabb makes me long for the 2010 version of Brett Favre, or the 2008 version of Gus Frerotte. McNabb is slow, inaccurate, and although he's got some mobility, it's not what it used to be. He has no rhythm with his receivers, and most importanly, he's 0-3. I'm having a hard time remembering him hitting a receiver in stride, and on his out and seam routes he's off. His receivers have bailed him out more often than he's put it where only they can catch it, and you just come away with the feeling that he's done.
If I could come back to my American Chopper analogy, McNabb is Paul, Sr. A few years back, he was the cat's ass. He built the best bikes in the business, and people looked at him as the industry gold standard. Now? His building is in foreclosure, his bikes are stale and unoriginal, and he doesn't make the talent around him better.
(Admit it: You know if Rick bolts Paul Sr and goes to Paul, Jr. Designs, Orange County Choppers is finished).
Look, you can make legitimate arguments on either starting or sitting rookie quarterbacks. Payton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger started as rookies and had success much sooner than they might have had otherwise, and Cam Newton is finding success now. On the other end of the spectrum, Aaron Rodgers sat for three years before taking over, and he's done just as well.
But it's time for the Christian Ponder era to begin, for a couple of reasons. The Vikings hope that Ponder will be their quarterback for the next ten years, but the only way they'll know whether or not he can be is by playing him, evaluating him, and making their decision at the end of the season. When you run through the schedule, the Vikings seem like they'll be in the running for the #1 overall pick, and everyone expects that to be Andrew Luck. I mean, after these three games, I can see the Vikings being favored in two, maybe three games from here on out.
So, what to do? The best definition I've ever heard for the word insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result. After today, I think it would be insane for the Vikings to trot out Donovan McNabb and think anything other than a second half offensive meltdown filled with poor throws will occur.
If they have a good QB in Ponder, and the Vikes do end up with the #1 pick, they might be in a position to trade that pick away for some immediate help, more draft picks to plug some gaping holes, or both. And if Ponder turns out to not be the guy, they can get Luck, if they get...lucky?
Or, the Vikings can keep trotting out Donovan McNabb, and hope he throws at better than a 55% completion percentage, throws for more than 150 yards, and doesn't engineer more than ten three and out second half offensive series.
Donovan McNabb won't be back next year, so it's time for the Vikings to re-calibrate their expectations, start Ponder, and play towards the future.
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I hate to say
I told you so but I will. There was a reason that Mcnabb’s was benched by his last 2 coaches. There was a reason that Andy Reid didn’t worry about trading him to a division rival. He cannot make the downfield throws and when he’s under pressure and trying to check down, he throws the ball at his receivers feet. But out of respect for Mcnabb, I don’t think Frazier will change qb’s at this point in the season. If the vikes are still playing the same way after 8 games then I can see frazier putting ponder in.
Yup, Frazier is going to give him more opportunities.
"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist
and that there are as few as there are any other great artists.
Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts
since the medium is the human mind and spirit."
by Edgecrusher71 on Sep 26, 2011 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm still optimistic that Webb could be something
This kid in a full game will do some special things. This offense needs something off the wall to get it rolling. You can kick it, and keep kicking it, but if your leg isn’t strong enough it won’t get rolling. well McNabb isn’t good enough so this offense won’t just all of a sudden sputter into a freak show on turf. We need someone that can make crucial third down completions late in the game. *Ahem or run for them.
SKOL
I think it makes sense to bring Ponder into a game where we are either far behind or ahead in the 3rd/4th
The “problem” is that we haven’t had a game like that yet. We’ve been in excellent position to win every game, and each has gone done to the wire.
In this environment, where a 3-0 alternate reality is not that inconceivable, it simply does not make any sense to start Ponder. I agree with playing him, when the moment is right. But that is a big difference from starting him. Can we please at least allow the guy the chance to learn to walk before we ask him to run?
I think it would be smart to put Ponder in after we are up 20-0
in the first FREAKING HALF!
Seriously. Why not McNabb turns into a freaken pumpkin after the half and the coaches forget we have AD on the team period…
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Mcnabb first half Ponder second?
Couldn’t be any worse than Mcnabb’s second halves right?
It's the first halves
They have been so good that it’s going to be hard to switch away from McNabb without trying a few more times to see if they can’t get the second halves figured out.
Also, I don’t see what’s different in McNabb’s play in the second half. He’s not as accurate as you would like. He doesn’t get out of the way of the rush as well as I would like (o-line doesn’t protect as well either). And he hasn’t completed anything downfield. But that’s all true in both halves, and they still scored 20 in the first half.
Anyway, McNabb going to get at least one more start. But once you’re 0-4, even if you think you’re a better team, what’s the point in sticking with a short-term veteran? Might as well let the young guys get some work.
I just hope this doesn't turn into the
“Start Tim Tebow” cry from the Broncos fans. He’s a Christian too, you know. Look, the Vikings and Broncos coaches both know quite a bit about what they have or don’t have in Ponder and Tebow. The fans don’t know nearly as much about it, and I think that’s what leads to these types of debates. The example of the Packers is a good one: QBs don’t go stale or become rotten by sitting on the bench. And, regardless of what happens for the remainder of this year, the Vikings will most likely pick a QB next year at some point in the draft and they should.
He's no Tebow
Tebow is a guy who’s only in the league because of character and collegiate success. He never looked like a pro QB, but maybe all his intangibles could work somehow.
Ponder’s actually supposed to be a pro QB.
I agree
I’m not comparing Ponder to Tebow. I am comparing Vikings and Broncos fans (although, that may be insulting also). Both fanbases have a vocal group calling for their first round draft choice QBs to start now. I think there are similarities about why this is happening. The fans want to see if the team’s expensive gamble paid off before next year’s draft. They want to find out what the team has or doesn’t have at QB. My point is I think the fans need to rely on the judgment of the coaches about when a player is ready to start and which player gives the team the best chance to compete.
Why Ponder why ot WEB too
Ponder gets the first two drives. If the offense gets a touchdown, he gets another drive. If he keeps getting TD’s he stays in. A drive with no TD’s WEB comes in to 2 drives with the same goals. Keep the rotation up. Hey you know in the second halt the offense might actually score becasue there is a big motivation factor. What about rythm, and stuff, oh you mean we have had that this year? What about McNabb? He had his chance to revive his career and blew it let him sit down and look grumpy. Oh and get rid of BB. If the defense improve we could when more games than you think.
Do you believe Webb is your QB of the future?
Don’t waste time giving learning reps to a guy that is not planned to be your starter down the road. If Ponder is the man, then he needs to play and start learning.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
i say...not yet. it's still too early to throw him into the mess we have with the o-line.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
A lot of great NFL QBs were thrown into the mix with questionable lines.
One thing you will find is that almost all of the truly great QBs in the recent NFL started pretty quickly. How many games did it take for Brady, or Peyton Manning to start. What about Elway, or Marino. Those guys got in the game and learned, and yes they took some lumps. One thing I have learned since the Lions got Stafford is that injuries to quarterbacks are often just about chance. Stafford gets hurt after a few hits, but Cutler gets hammered all season and makes it all the way to the NFC championship game. You just never know when the hit will come and ALL quarterbacks will get hit. You can’t prevent it.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
but ponder is not in the same catagory as the qb's you mention.
stafford was the number one pick in the nfl draft and touted as a future star nfl qb.
manning was the number one pick in the nfl draft and touted as a future star nfl qb.
elway was the number one pick in the nfl draft and touted as a future star nfl qb.
marino was the number one pick in the usfl draft and touted as a future star qb.
marino was a prolific college passer well beyond what ponder was like as a passer.
brady was a 6th round pick that worked his way up from 4th on the depth chart and
only started in his 2nd game of his season when bledsoe went down with an injury.
and what about david carr and joey harrington? they were top picks in 2002,
where are they now?
ponder was the 4th qb selected and was a reach. he isn’t quite as talented as stafford, imo.
there is no one way that “works best”, imo. i covered some of this in detail in this fanpost a
while back, except i only covered the paths that success stories took, not the guys that failed
(that would actually make a pretty good comparison fanpost to make to this one):
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2011/5/28/2194298/what-you-think-the-2-qb-should-be-bomar
my opinion is that it is still too early, especially after the lockout and the fact that the o-line and offense are in disarray with this new coaching staff and system. i don’t consider him the qbotf because he is not a top pick that makes big bucks, and he is kind of a borderline 1st-2nd round talent coming out of college. i like delaying his playing debut until mcnabb gets injured, then there won’t be the pressure to perform that will be there if he gets “annointed” the starter at this point.
but, i understand why people are clamouring for him to get a shot at it. i just think…not quite yet.
warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!
Really, how do you know that.
In my experience a lot of mid-first round picks become excellent QBs. Look, you are going to have to play him eventually to see what you have. I don’t care how good your line is, the QB is going to get hit and sacked. There is no way possible to protect him from that. He either will learn to stand in and make plays or he won’t.
While Ponder may not be as talented as some of the other guys, that is not what you are worried about. What you want to find out is whether Ponder can adjust to the speed of the NFL game and make his reads in time. He will never find that out until he is in the game and playing.
The bottom line is this…
When you do not play Ponder that also sends a message. It tells him that the coaches do not have confidence in him and they do not consider him good enough. He can see McNabb struggling out there. He can also see that the coaches don’t think he is good enough to take the job from a guy who is struggling.
Most of success in sports is mental. Your coaches need to turn Ponder into a guy that is confident enough to make plays. You don’t accomplish that by babying him.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
Just a little perspective from a Lions fan
When we drafted Matthew Stafford this same debate raged prior to the season. Many fans wanted the Lions to keep Stafford on the bench for a season and start Dunte Culpepper. Others wanted Culpepper for a few games and give Stafford limited reps to get his feet wet, until he gained enough comfort to take over later in the season. Still others wanted Stafford to start from day one and learn by playing.
At first I was one of the people that felt we should bring Stafford around slowly. I was wrong. It was incredibly important for Stafford to get into the games and learn how to make decisions at the speed of the NFL. It is not something you can learn from the sideline. Eventually Ponder has to play to get better and leaving him on the bench only delays that process.
Certainly, there is the flip side of the argument that you should allow a quarterback to learn behind a veteran for a couple seasons. I really don’t think so. Green Bay should have traded Brett Favre sooner and let Aaron Rogers play. They would have gotten more value for Favre and Rogers was ready.
Minnesota does not have that same problem because McNabb is not even close to Favre. You are not saving any wins by playing McNabb. In fact, if you were to play Ponder now, you might end up with more wins than you would with McNabb. Frankly, McNabb is done. The guy cannot hit open receivers with any consistency any more. If McNabb could have made the passes, the Vikings would have beaten Detroit. If you are going to struggle with a guy that is trying to find his game, you might as well struggle with the future QB, not a washed-up one.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
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