Cause And Effect - Why Second Halves Are Going So Badly
Okay, folks. . .we must move on from this, but not without taking one last look back.
So, the Minnesota Vikings haven't been very good in the second halves of ball games this year. We know this. From what I can see, there are two big reasons as to why this is, and they're both pretty closely connected.
The first one is the complete lack of Adrian Peterson in the second half of these ball games. Mark Craig pointed this out at the Star-Tribune, but the numbers are so mind-boggling that they need to be stated again.
In the first halves of the Vikings' first three football games this year, Adrian Peterson has carried the ball 29 times for 230 yards and three touchdowns. That means that, in the first half, every time Adrian Peterson is handed the football, it's basically eight yards to the good.
In the second halves of the Vikings' first three football games this year, Adrian Peterson has carried the ball 22 carries for 66 yards. His yards/carry is cut more than in half. That. . .that's not good.
This leads to the second problem the Vikings have had in the second half this year. . .a complete and total inability to convert on third down after halftime. After the jump, I will proceed to fully break this down.
These are taken directly from the NFL.com Game Books for each game. To start, we'll look at the third down situations the Vikings have faced in the first halves of ball games.San Diego Game, First Half
3rd & 9 - Pass to Adrian Peterson for 4 yards (not converted)
3rd & 3 - Pass to Michael Jenkins for 12 yards (converted)
3rd & 5 - Run by Percy Harvin for 8 yards (converted)
3rd & 3 - Pass to Jenkins for 11 yards (converted)
3rd & 6 - Pass for Harvin incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 6 - Run by Harvin for 4 yards (not converted)
Tampa Bay Game, First Half
3rd & 10 - Pass for Visanthe Shiancoe incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 5 - Pass to Harvin for 11 yards (converted)
3rd & 1 - Run by Peterson for 1 yard and a touchdown (converted)
3rd & 1 - Run by Toby Gerhart for 5 yards (converted)
3rd & 12 - Donovan McNabb scramble for 13 yards (converted)
3rd & 4 - Pass for Shiancoe incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 16 - Pass to Gerhart for 42 yards (converted)
Detroit Game, First Half
3rd & 1 - Run by Peterson for 1 yard (converted)
3rd & 8 - Pass to Jenkins for 9 yards (converted)
3rd & 14 - Pass for Peterson incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 3 - Pass for Harvin incomplete, roughing the passer penalty on Detroit (converted)
3rd & 4 - McNabb sacked (not converted)
3rd & 8 - McNabb scramble for 8 yards (converted)
3rd & 5 - Pass for Gerhart incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 10 - Pass to Peterson for 6 yards (not converted)
3rd & 5 - Pass to Shiancoe for 8 yards and a touchdown (converted)
And now, to the second halves of those same games.
San Diego Game, Second Half
3rd & 7 - Donovan McNabb scramble for 10 yards (converted)
3rd & 6 - Pass for Bernard Berrian incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 10 - Pass for Peterson incompleted (not converted)
3rd & 8 - Pass for Berrian incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 10 - McNabb sacked (not converted)
Tampa Bay Game, Second Half
3rd & 18 - Pass to Peterson for 5 yards (not converted)
3rd & 13 - McNabb sacked (not converted)
3rd & 11 - Pass for Lorenzo Booker incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 6 - Pass for Devin Aromashodu incomplete (not converted)
Detroit Game, Second Half
3rd & 5 - Pass for Berrian incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 18 - Pass for Jenkins incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 1 - Pass for Harvin incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 9 - Pass to Jenkins for 8 yards (not converted)
3rd & 14 - Pass for Berrian incomplete (not converted)
3rd & 5 - Pass for Berrian incomplete (not converted)
The Vikings are 13 for 22 on third down in the first halves of ball games this year, which is pretty damn good. They're also 1-for-15 on third down in the second halves of ball games this year, which is outright freaking terrible. Feel free to throw in the failed fourth down on Sunday that followed up that 8-yard pass to Jenkins there, too. To put it another way, try to wrap your head around this:
The Minnesota Vikings have not converted a third down in the second half of a football game since the ten-minute mark of the third quarter of the season opener. That's 55 minutes of football. . .nearly one full regulation game. . .without converting a single third down.
In the first half, the Vikings' average third down distance to go is about 6.3 yards, which is manageable for an offense like Minnesota's. In the second half, that number goes up to 9.4 yards, which is not. And it can be directly attributed to the absence of Adrian Peterson in the second halves of ball games.
I'm not sure if this is happening by design, or if the three teams we've played have simply taken Peterson away in the second half thus far. If it's the latter, then something needs to be done to change that. If it's the former, then by God somebody needs to be fired, because the idea of removing Adrian Peterson from your game plan by choice is simply too mind-numbingly stupid for me to comprehend.
The second half roadblock thing is clearly in this team's head now. You're going to have a hell of a time convincing anybody otherwise. This team is not completely without talent. . .for at least half of each game this year, we've seen this. But this team needs to start putting it together in the second half, and that starts with re-establishing the best running back in the game after the teams come out of the locker room at the half. This team obviously spends the first half getting him going, and they reap the benefits of that. Not doing so after halftime of these games is inexcusable.
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Dunno if Peterson is Absent
I know people have been saying AP isn’t being used enough in the second half, so I was surprised to see he’s had 22 carries (7.3 carries/half) in the second half compared to 29 carries (9.6 carries/half) in the first half. That to me seems like something else is wrong other than the number of carries. Would 1-2 additional carries in the second half really have made that much difference? Maybe him rushing on 4th-and-1 in the last game might’ve made a difference, but it’s not like he’s disappearing off the face of the earth.
by kirkaracha on Sep 26, 2011 10:49 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
First things first
Am I the only guy out there who liked the Toby Fake on fourth down? I mean, sure it failed, but everyone and their grandma knew (thought) that AP was getting the ball. Call me crazy but I liked the creative play call there.
Secondly. Perhaps this is just me as well, but can you attribute his loss of carries to the offense being on the field for less time. I cannot find exact stats, but with fewer plays, he has fewer chances to touch the ball.
Finally, I am pissed at the defense (despite earlier postings) because they were NOT on the field until the second half. Are they only conditioned for 1/3 of a game? We owned the lions in the first and maintained possession. Why the F are they gased when they only played half of half of the game!?!?!?!?!?
Second finally: When you give up as many points as we do, simply giving AP the ball is a losing scenario. I know, I know…time clock, game management blah blah blah. When you hand off every first down, guess whats gonna happen…the other coach is going to predict it! How about some play actions!?!????
Third final thought: This team had better keep losing, throw in the rookie, see if we need a new qb or not. Mcnabb isnt awful, but he isnt doing this franchise any good. Might as well see if Ponder/Webb has “it”
by redhearring on Sep 27, 2011 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Two excellent posts and I rec'd you both
We dominated time-of possession in the first half against Detroit – the defense couldn’t have been tired when the Lions began driving the ball with ease. Maybe by the 4th quarter when they couldn’t get off the field. It seems we have a meltdown in the second half in every phase of the game, offense, defense, special teams, and coaching.
Booker has a long Kick return – we get a FG. The rest of the time our KRs don’t even reach the 20. Adrian’s YPC drops, bone-headed penalties at critical moments, McNabb can’t take charge, Musgrave can’t call plays that exploit what defenses give, The Vikings can’t cover TEs or the flats.
Sometimes I get the sense the Vikes are like a throwback team. Our schemes are from a gone-by era and we don’t have the talent or coaching imagination to compete in the modern QB-driven league. We’re like a baseball team with no speed, dependent on the 3-run homer. If Percy or Adrian don’t bust one to the house, or the defense scores, we’re screwed.
I hope the coaches find an answer. 0-3 sucks big time. Skol Vikes!
by Caretaker QB on Sep 27, 2011 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions
This is professional football
Almost no matter how good your defense is, you aren’t going to stop a good offense every time. The Lions have a good offense and were bound to score some. With a little help from the offense, we likely would have held them to 17 or so in the second half, and that would have been a heck of a defensive performance against these lions.
As for kick returns, clearly our guys haven’t figured out when to take the touchback with the new rules. That needs to be fixed.
Gotta disagree on the Toby/AD fourth down play. Gerhart getting the ball was super obvious to me since it was the first time he's ever lined up at FB and the Vikings never run two-back sets with him and AD.
Yes, it was surprising that AD didn’t get the carry but putting Toby in a position he never lines up in was like putting a flashing arrow over his head that tells an NFL defense that he’s getting the ball. Now, if they ran two-back sets with Toby and AD more often this play-call might have had a chance as the surprise element would be there. It was a creative play and I wouldn’t mind seeing Toby and AD on the field more together but that play reminded me of when Chester would replace AD for every passing play in that it totally tipped off the defense as to what was coming.
by CanadianViking on Sep 27, 2011 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions
agreed
4th and one is not time to experiment with new looks
I can't believe 3 people think Toby gettin g the ball on 4th and 1 was a good call
Do these same 3 people think it was okay to let McNabb come out throwing in the 2nd half?
Do these same people think AD getting only one carry in the 3rd period was a good idea?
The lack of peterson in the 2nd half is disgusting. Andf anybody who thinks it’s a good idea needs to go away.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Sep 27, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't mind Toby getting the ball, but the call was terrible
I would prefer a PA pass if we were going to fake it to Peterson. I hated the play that was called. If you’re going to fake it to AP, don’t give it to Toby UP THE MIDDLE. Regardless of who is getting the ball, the defense has to prioritize their stop right up the middle in between the tackles. If you wanted to give Toby the ball, then line the both in the backfield and have toby run a sneak while Peterson fakes up the middle. Seems like Frasier/Musgrave is outthinking themselves again. We’ve seen this before(chilly)
Skol!
DM, the 4th and 1 call is just a microcosm of the year
The lack of AD when it matters most.
I’m tired of it already. My worry is they didn’t learn their lesson the first 2 weeks, so I’m guessing this week will be more of the same.
"We can't get pushed around," Haley said. "What commentators say about us, that's their job. My job is to try and limit as many people who want to take liberties with our guys as possible."
by BobbyNystromOwnsYou on Sep 27, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Probably, yes you are the only guy who liked the call
because AP is a power back and Gerhart is not. Regardless of who gets the ball, 3rd or 4th and one is typically a running down…..straight up the middle. Very seldom, even when a team does try for a 4th down conversion, do they pass the ball. So, regardless of the back, the defense has a good idea where it’s going.
Gerhart has his positives….but he is not stronger than AP, PERIOD! When you have 6 or 7 or more guys in the box, put in your strong work horse….not his back up.
by Chris3 on Sep 27, 2011 7:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Gerhart isn't a power back
then what is he?
You're so wise. You're like a miniature Buddha, covered in hair.
Kick the field goal
And I said so at that time – I was probably one of about 100 people at the game who wasn’t screaming to go for it. The Ref was right in front of me and when I saw how far apart his arms were I couldn’t believe Frazier decided to go for it. It wasn’t a foot and a half – it was more like 4 feet – and it wasn’t even like they were inside the 5 yard line. A HC has to be smarter than that. I think you lead and support your team by making smart – and unpopular decisions. LF has to get smarter – much smarter – in game management. Same old story …
You're crazy (on the first point)
You asked.
As to the D, I think that’s unfair. What causes a defense to wear down is being on the field for long stretches without a break, not the total amount of time the play over that game. For an analogy, sprinting a mile is harder than sprinting 4 quarter miles separated by five minute breaks.
I am not trying to be rude here but there seems to be some misunderstanding about football.
On 4th and short no defensive linemen is going to read any keys, they are going to fire off and try to plug any hole regardless. Giving it to Toby was dumb with this regard.
It doesn’t matter (for the most part) how well conditioned you are, even on the first drive of the game if an offense goes for a 10+ play drive the defense will get worn down and the advantage goes to the offense. These guys are pros but lets be real hear they are still human.
"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist
and that there are as few as there are any other great artists.
Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts
since the medium is the human mind and spirit."
by Edgecrusher71 on Sep 27, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
if the coaches wanted to do something out of the obvious (AP handoff), then run a quick hit to a TE or even a WR.
Preference for plays:
1-AP Handoff
2-Short pass to #40
3-QB Sneak
4-Toby Handoff
by domesticllama on Sep 27, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Uh...I would scrath # 2, 3, and 4 off that list
I would do a PA roll out to Rudy. He has by far the best hands out of any of our WR or TEs. He’s the most reliable. At least this fakes up the middle with AP and McNabb could have a chance to run for it if Rudy gets covered.
Skol!
The issue with Rudolph
Is putting him in there keys them to a pass a lot more than putting JK in there. However, if rudolph had been running with the team for a lot of running plays, then I owuld love to attempt to get the ball in his hands.
by domesticllama on Sep 29, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Bring out the wildcat and let Web simply jump for a 1st down or do something actually sneaky not just some handoff to our #2 back!
"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist
and that there are as few as there are any other great artists.
Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts
since the medium is the human mind and spirit."
by Edgecrusher71 on Sep 27, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I like something sneaky
but bringing Webb out there and line up under center would broadcast our intentions way too completely to be effective – they just bring up some LBs or a good SS (in this case, their LBs) and wait half a moment to leap right after the snap to prevent that, like any good Goal Line stand, but easier to stop.
McNabb can do the same thing as Webb in that situtation without giving up the goat, as it were. Also, remember that it was a long yard – leaning forward doesn’t do as much in this situation as it does in most other similar ones.
Also, AP tends to truck, but we do know he can leap. HB Delay or Draw over the gut? Same problem with making it a bit obvious – the LBs would read that as soon as the snap starts, but it’s a bit better than Blazer or Webbcat or whatever.
BTW, don’t get me wrong – I think packages with Webb can be great, but what we’ve done with it has been sad.
they may have been trying to get the linebackers to bite
but the play action was terrible. No one in their right mind would have believed that.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Who cares about getting linebackers to bite?
We needed less than a foot.
"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist
and that there are as few as there are any other great artists.
Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts
since the medium is the human mind and spirit."
by Edgecrusher71 on Sep 27, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
didn't say it made sense just saying what they might have been thinking...
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Well to answer your question about the tired defense...
That’s an easy one – they’re tired because we have one of the older defenses, if I’m not mistaken. It’s that simple.
Feeds itself
Peterson gets fewer carries also because we punt earlier in 2nd half possessions. It’s not that we took him out of our game plan (although that was clearly an issue in the last game), it’s that we don’t have as many offensive attempts period.
Part of that is because our line seems to be tired and can’t open holes as well for our runners so our first and second down runs aren’t as successful. A tired line would also explain what looks to be more sacks in the 2nd half (I don’t have numbers on this, but anyone who does should take care to take a look at sack % per pass play attempted, not total number of sacks – we have fewer offensive attempts, so it wouldn’t really be fair).
Part of the lack of runs is that we seem to have more penalties before the snap in the 2nd half (I don’t have numbers on this, it just feels true at this point, like the sack % assertion I made earlier), so running isn’t as viable in those earlier downs.
Most people talk about opening up the running game to help the passing game. I think we have the reverse problem. Our passing game makes our running game less threatening. Frazier was correct today when he said that it was a mistake not to run Peterson against 8 men in the box, but we all know Peterson runs for more with fewer men dedicated to stopping the run. How about keeping the defense “honest” by having a decent pass game? They don’t seem to stack the box as much in the first half.
The 3rd down situations in the Detroit game seem to be shorter yardage than the other two games and we ran on none of them. That does have to change, even if it means we run Gerhart instead of AP. Everything I’ve just said is not an excuse in the specific situation of short yardage to go. I don’t care if they have 12 men in the box – handing it off to Peterson on 3rd and 1 just makes sense. I don’t know who said it, but it’s true: If you can’t run the ball 1 yard, you don’t deserve to win.
And if you don’t want to run the ball 1 yard to win the game, maybe you don’t want to win the game.
At any rate, we can complain about our offensive line all day, but at least we don’t have Phil Costa as center.
by Arif Hasan on Sep 26, 2011 11:08 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
We need a gunslinger at QB
In 2008, defenses put 8 and 9 in the box and run-blitzed. 2009 started out that way but Favre made ‘em pay for it. We need a QB who can exploit a defense’s weakness. Kurt Warner made you pay for blitzing.
Someone the other day jokingly mentioned Jeff George. I remember St. Louis shopping Ryan Fitzpatrick for a 5th-or-6th round draft pick. McNabb is packin’ a scattergun I think.
by Caretaker QB on Sep 27, 2011 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions
that would require..
threatening receivers.
Who is afraid of BB not even me and i probably run a 5.2 40 (with 40 year old, married with 2 teen agers, coach potato bones) all i would have to do is yell BOO when the ball is near his hands and he’ll drop it.
But seriously defenses are doubling Harvin and Jenkins in the 2nd half, they know they don’t have to put a great CB to cover BB, just a fast one because he’s not going to fight for any ball thrown his way.
by midnightwonder on Sep 27, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Why is everybody tired?
If it’s not the D that’s supposed to be gassed, then it’s the O-line that’s gassed. It’s always someone on the Vikings’ squad that’s gassed.
How the heck to winning NFL teams manage to play for 60 whole minutes, once a freaking week, without getting so tired that they can’t do their jobs any more?
Is it depth? Do every one of those teams simply have better depth? Are the Vikings not rotating players? Does Frazier make the squad that’s not on the gridiron, do non-stop jumping jacks on the sideline so that they’re tired when they go back up?! Surely there must be an answer.
Why is “tired” even an excuse? How have teams managed to play for 60 full minutes in the past?! Actually, we’re talking about 30 minutes, give or take 5-10, for each squad. Is that too much for the Vikings?
Maybe there’s a reason that McKinnie showed up so out of shape that he had to be released. Neat, how, a couple months later, he was able to perform quite admirably with the Ravens. I wonder if gets “gassed” now?
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Tired
is not an excuse. Especially for an offensive line. It’s a potential observation. I don’t even know that they’re tired, it just seems like it to me. If that’s the answer, we know how to work on it and what to work on. If that’s not the answer, we need a different solution.
Also, it is inevitable if one side (especially on the defensive side) is on the field too long. It’s not an excuse – the defense should perform (And JA clearly took no excuses), but the offense should do their best to make it easier for others. So is it on the defense for not stopping a 23-3 (and then 3-0) run? Yea, a little. Is it on the offense for putting them in that position? Yes, too.
Also, my guess is that McKinnie doesn’t perform that well unless he has a shock like being cut for being out of shape. I don’t think he performs like that for us unless he is forced to change his ways, and being told he’s too fat to play might be the way to make him perform like that.
fire musgrave and cut mcnabb
hire someone competent and maybe mcnabb will function properly. but musgrave has to go.
Nah, dont fire him
just kick him in the ding-ding and tell him to get to work. Then bench McNabb and let him watch Webb/Ponder fill his shoes quite well.
we had one possesion in second half where
we ran on first and second down . 100 mill peterson should be feeling like ricky willams did after this year . tired cuz hes being run 30-40 times a game . it isnt his fault we pass on first and ten in second halves with leads . with a 20 point lead 3 runs and punts and two medium drives for fg wins 99.9% of time. why because other team only gets 5 possesions for second half one stop on d and its over . walter payton would get the ball on 3rd and 5 for a run . he could convert it so many times . when you pass 3 bad things can happen pick inc or sack . and with our qb paired with line gives you a greater chance at the the 3 bad things happening. for past 3 years vikes have been a pass team that pretends its a run team.
Play60!
Time for the Vikings to Join the Movement. Details at NFL.com. :-)
by newps on Sep 27, 2011 12:08 AM CDT reply actions 4 recs
Biqgest reason
AP didn’t touch the ball much the second half, was holding penalties on 2 huge runs AP had. That is why he didn’t get any yardage second half, and why he didn’t get a lot of touches either. Silly holding penalties away from the ball that killed huge plays on the other side of the field. He should have had at least 150. And he did if those holding calls weren’t there.
Good point.
I forgot about those. Wasn’t one of them on Jenkins? Who was the other hold on?
by Caretaker QB on Sep 27, 2011 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Yup. It was Shianc
"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men. Do not pray for tasks equal to your powers. Pray for powers equal to your tasks. Then the doing of your work shall be no miracle, but you shall be the miracle."
by Winchestertonfieldville on Sep 27, 2011 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Shank went back to hugging linebackers
Is there a more overrated TE in the league? Give him the boot, along with Loadholt. Ksaws and Rudy overall will do a little less in the receiving game, but they’ll block better and be less penalized. Hell, put in Reisner. Shank is overrated. Trade him. maybe get a 5th or 6th rd pick for him? We’ll lose him by the end of the season anyways.
Skol!
Gotta use what you've got
Try this: McNabb plays the first two quarters, then steps aside for Ponder or Webb in the second half. That way, we get McNabb’s best production, and then Ponder and Webb step in with fresh legs to learn their trade and keep things going.
Granted it’s not a perfect plan, but with McNabb’s deteriorated stamina, it may be the best the team can do this year. On the sidelines in the 2nd half, McNabb will become the QB coach, help call plays, and be ready if one of the kids goes down or there’s a last-minute drive in the fourth quarter.
This plan may not win a lot of games, but it kicks the mentoring process into high gear, and the way things are the team isn’t going to win many games anyway. Planning ahead to do the halftime switch gives Ponder and Webb time to watch what the defense is doing and get thinking about how best to attack it. Tell them that either one of them may enter the game, and then watch how much more actively they prepare.
Half Baked
Is the movie that comes to mind when i read the posts on here, when scarface (The dog) was murdered and Brian (Super stoner) goes into some crazy story about how he believed he died, about the dog doing drugs and flipping out. rolling over on his side and dying.
But its much simpler then that. As Mr. Gates has pointed out in a very detailed script, this team hasn’t recorded a third down conversion since our first game (in the 2nd half), and that was the ONLY one (in the 2nd half). Thats garbage. I was wandering why I’d get so frustrated by the end of each game this year. Whats more mind boggling is this is a team that should be strong to be playing with a lead. You got a strong run game, a quarterback who apparantly can only be useful with play-action. A strong D-line to rush the QB. Ah!
Defenses will continue to crowd the box against the offense
in the second half until McNabb can prove he can go downfield. However, there lies the problem, we have NO downfield threat whatsoever…Can’t the offense just throw a burner out there to run a dang post or seam. Doesn’t Aromashadu have some speed?
Maybe we can’t go deep because the O-line can’t protect so why not some draws or screens to AP on 3rd down? I don’t think I’ve seen one freaking screen all year. Leave AP in on all downs, they just paid the guy a boatload of money. USE HIM in different ways in the second half. Why is this so difficult?
including
as a decoy or blocking back….in other words, make sure the defense doesn’t know the ball is going to AP….it’s when they key on him that opens up room for other plays (reverses, pass, Harvin, etc.) And when they stop keying on Peterson, give him the ball again.
Exactly
And how about running some of those plays that we had big-time success in the 1st half again? Coaches do that all the time. Run it again(later in the game, not right away). If they stop it, oh well at least they have to keep the defense spread out and keeps them honest. There’s no reason McNabb should ever have a straight drop-back. He should be PA all day long.
Oh, and someone argued earlier that McNabb has no deep-threats. While that is true, he’s not hitting ANYone when they’re open down the field so what difference does it make. That guy’s straight cashed, homie.
Skol!
the amazing thing is how often Green Bay runs play action
and how good they are at it. Maybe the reason we don’t run it is because we just aren’t good at it. Maybe we need to send our boys to acting school?
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
the amazing thing is that anyone throws with out it
Really. Can it ever hurt to fake run before passing?
Obviously I’m exaggerating, but only a little. The Vikings should be passing off a run fake more often than not.
I agree
the problem seems to me that Mcnabb, can not hit a moving target. Once the D figures this out in the second half, they can crown the line and stop AD. Mcnabb has not hit a running receiver in stride this season, that I can remember. If you can not hit Big K in the numbers on the rumble there is something wrong, its not like he had to thread the needle, there was no one within 5 yards of the big galute on two passes and Mcnabb could not hit him.
Once the D sees this we are done, the plays you can call get so limited that it just makes it to easy for them to stop us.
Try to learn from others mistakes because there just is not enough time in this world to make them all your self
by montana vikes fan on Sep 27, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
exactly 100% agree.
K-Sauce was open and I don’t think anyone would call him the speediest receiver on the team… I did really want to see him mow down a safety though…
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
It was just ugly
how bad that throw was. It’s about getting a fresh set of downs. That gives AP at least another carry or two on that possession and we keep their defense on the field, our defense off and we continue to put up points. That’s how crucial those plays are.. I don’t mind the Vikings offense taking what the D’s giving us, but that’s a simple throw, as easy as it gets and if he can’t hit that, he needs to hit the road.
Skol!
At 42 we should be able to get 13 games out of Favre
Warm up the team jet and make it happen, let Ponder study under him…….trade McNabb to Denver for Eric Decker and draft a legit deep threat WR, this would give us solid TE’s Percy in the slot, Decker as a solid posession guy and whoever the pick up in the draft.
You have now just made defenses respect the passing game again to open up plays for AP.
Chances are that Denver isn’t that crazy, so can we trade McNabb for a beer and a brat, at least I can get some sastifaction from those.
All this talk of AP not getting touches in the second half? Not the problem. Percy not on the field? Not the problem. #1 problem? EXECUTION. #2 problem? PENALTIES.
If the opposing team changes def. schemes for the second half, the OC needs to change it up also!
I agree wholeheartedly
I would even flip those around because the penalties come first. That sets us up with 1st and 20(not good for running FB team). We’ll undoubtedly still run on one of the downs and pick up like 6. so 2nd and 14….mcnabb incomplete…3rd and 14….completion to AP for 4 yards…..punt. I’m sorry, every team needs a QB that can consistently hit a wide open WR/TE. It’s about moving the chains, keep the offense on the field and giving yourself the easiest path to march downt he field. The penalties are setting our team up for failure, but penalties happen in every game. Some stupid, some not. We HAVE to have a QB that’s at least willing to take a couple of chances to get a first down(and throwing out of bound on 3rd and 1 is not going to work when the guys is wide freaking open.(can’t blame berrian for that one)
Skol!
I don't think the 2nd half collapses
are as simple as not giving the ball to AP . the times Peterson got the ball in the 2nd half he got stuffed . was it the oline not playing as well or the adjustments made by the other team or the lack of 3rd down conversions and missed passes. even in the first half of games, the offense scores FG when they have to go the length of the field. when they have a short field they score TD’s. defenses are adjusting to the short passing game during long drives and holding the vikes to FG. until mcnabb can complete passses down the field, to loosen up the defenses and help the running game I don’t see this trend changing. the vikes do have down field threats. Jenkins is capable and how many times did we see favre throw deep to percy or shank down the middle? the players there are capable
I think Jenkins could be our replacement for Rice
Don’t call me crazy, I understand Rice has better ball skills, but from what I’ve seen, let’s get more agressive with Jenkins down the sidelines(especially when it’s one-one coverage) Also, Berrian is not a stretch the field kind of WR. We need to get him back in the slat-game. He was always really good with slants because he is fast and quick and can pick up 11-12 yds quickly on a slant. Don’t know if McNabb isn’t ready defenses enough to know when the slant would be open or not. I would have liked to see another attempt at a WR screen to Percy in the 2nd half. That picked up a lot of good yardage.
Skol!
Don't know about that
I don’t think Jenkin’s has downfield speed, and I don’t think he has Rice’s jumping ability.
But I really like what we saw from him this week, and a possession receiver who runs good out, curl and comeback routes and catches the ball is incredibly valuable. In other words, he’s a poor man’s Chris Carter, not a poor man’s Randy Moss.
As for Berrian, the only way I’ve seen him do anything is downfield, and that’s only because he doesn’t catch well so he can only be a contributor if he occasionally get a big play.
Is it possible...
We run AP so much due to the lack of air play by our QB, that by the time the 2nd half rolls around, the other teams D has AP’s number.
I know hes a great RB, but when you get 30 shots to see how to stop him, youre going to get a little bit better at run 31+ stoppage…
Just a thought
0-3....We look to be on track to suck for Luck in LA!
I agree
The only thing that surprises me is other teams don’t start the game trying to shut down ap, I suppose its a matter of time. In the 2nd half they are daring us to throw.
by Simply_Greatness on Sep 27, 2011 8:57 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe the other team has no game plan at all
Until they get to Minnesota and play 1 half. Then, having gotten a look at the Vikings, they say, “Oh, sheesh, is that all they’re doing? We can put a stop to that crap!”, and the Vikes get shut down.
Maybe space aliens are on the side of the opposition, but since they’re coming from Alfa Sentary 2, it takes them a while to get here and they’re usually late, don’t show up til half-time. But once on the field, their invisible exhaustion-beams play havoc with Viking players!
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
They must be thinking
Our passing can’t be as bad as it looks on tape? They get to halftime and realize yes, yes it is that bad. Then let the cheerleaders cover the receivers and everybody else stop ap.
by Simply_Greatness on Sep 27, 2011 12:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I think there are several problems and our O Line is definitely one of them
they do not come out the second half firing on all pistons. This causes all sorts of problems, also defenses in the second half are very aware of AD. This puts him in a spot where he is having to carry the team on his shoulders and honestly no one can do that.
The biggest issue I see other than the line is McNabb. He is terrible. He has no accuracy at all the ball goes some where within a two feet zone of the receivers hands which is pretty much killing us where we rocked in 2009, YAC. I bet we have some of the lowest YAC in the league, McNabb needs to start hitting receivers in their stride if he does that then the fact that he can’t throw a deep ball won’t matter because we have people who have the speed to force the safeties to play farther back. The second half of games is once again coming down to what TJ and Ferotte brought us, 8-9 men swarming around the box because our QB’s can’t throw worth a damn. Now I can’t say if this is McNabb’s fault or our lines, but coaching should be able to alleviate some of it. Which brings me to my next point the rainbow..
And here’s the rainbow. There are plays designed to let bad QB’s look better. There are plays designed to keep defenses from T’ing off on your QB. Screens, draws, play action all great ideas on how to do this. Anyone remember the Toby Gerhart screen? Obviously didn’t work so I can see why we never did it again…
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Job Weasel
And here’s the rainbow. There are plays designed to let bad QB’s look better. There are plays designed to keep defenses from T’ing off on your QB. Screens, draws, play action all great ideas on how to do this. Anyone remember the Toby Gerhart screen? Obviously didn’t work so I can see why we never did it again…
What the hell?! It’s only been 3 horribly disappointing games, and you’re already trying to take over Frazier’s job?! Where’s your loyalty?! Sheesh, give the man a few dozen pies and he thinks he’d make a better rookie HC than the any other rookie HC! Well, buddy, no matter how many copies of your resume that you send in, I don’t see Wilf booting Frazier just yet, so hold your freaking horses!
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Um how did you know about the resumes?
and I had one scented in lavender too…
Of course my resumes are just pie recipes so I guess I can see why I’m not on the list. yet….
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Maybe
It might already (sadly) be time for Frazier to come under the microscope – he clearly seems in over his head and doesn’t seem capable of making the technical and strategic corrections needed to win these games. How ANY coach can let their team blow leads in 3 straight games is utterly mind-boggingly and reflects on a poor job of coaching, imho.
I was never terribly thrilled with Frazier and the past several games only proves my worries weren’t entirely unfounded or unfair.
I agree with the quote thouse
It’s a little ridiculous that we see plays that gash the Defense and we never go back to them. It’s like we’ve got 500 plays and we have to run every single one of them to keep the defense off balance(what we think), but in reality, we end up going to some plays that arent’ going to work and should really be looking back at the plays that DO work and trying those again, or at least some variation of the same play. Like on the reverse to percy that ran for like 40-50 yds. How about we run that the other direction? Might sound easy to defense, but what you’re doing is testing the DE to keep his eyes on AP long enouhg for Percy to get the corner. It might not work running the same direction becasue that DE might be looking out for it again, but it might work the other way? Pretty simple really and the “strategy” behind the play-call is the same: DE watch AP….here comes Percy.
Skol!
You need two things to fix your problem.
I really wouldn’t say that your problem is halftime adjustments. The “halftime adjustment” is the biggest myth in football. It is just not how it is done. NFL teams look at every series and make adjustments on the sidelines between every possession. Most NFL teams will not make big adjustments during halftime because they have been making them all along.
There were several plays that could have sealed the win for the Vikings in the second half against the Lions. Much of the blame for the lack of execution falls directly on the execution of the offense. The play call worked and there were guys open to get the ball, and McNabb simply did not connect with them. Some of that is certainly McNabb. I saw him throw the ball out of bounds on several plays. I don’t think he actually intended to throw the ball out of bounds, he just missed that badly.
I would have to go back and look to see why McNabb was so inaccurate in his throws. Some of it is probably pressure from the Lions defensive line. It appeared that McNabb was hurrying his passes some because the clock in his head told him that the Lions were coming, and he was often right. So some of the blame certainly falls on the offensive line for not giving McNabb good protection, but McNabb needs to stand in and make that throw properly as well. If he cannot take the heat, maybe he needs to get out of the kitchen.
The other aspect is that the Vikings lack a deep threat receiver for McNabb to stretch the field. The best deep throws that the Vikings completed were to Kyle Rudolph. If a tight end is the only guy making receptions down field, you have a serious problem with receivers. I am not seeing any chemistry between McNabb and his receivers at all.
As it becomes apparent that the defense can defend the long pass wit single coverage you are going to increasingly see eight men in the run box. That is going to take the running game away in a lot of situations, and that is where AP gets stuffed toward the end of the game. It is also where McNabb has the opportunity to win the game with a good pass, but he doesn’t get it done.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
You can actually force some deeper safety play if you have people really good at YAC
Which Harvin is. If McNabb could toss it to him in stride. But I have yet to see McNabb hit any receiver who is moving anywhere close to in stride. could be the line, but honestly we have given him enough time back there he just isn’t making the throws well enough to allow our receivers to keep their momentum.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
by Grime on Sep 27, 2011 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Too true about McNabb. I don't think it is alway because of the line.
A lot of the throws are behind the receivers. If he was getting hurried they should be in too far in front of the receiver. He just is not an accurate passer. Even the long one to BB in preseason was underthrown and we got lucky the defender wiffed on it. I think the biggest problem on the offense is McNabb.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!
BTW, I will make one more comment about receivers.
The difference in the game between the Lions and Vikings was the Detroit receivers caught some balls that were very tough catches. The Vikes did not. The Vikings really need some receivers besides Harvin. Jenkins is a decent possession receiver. Rudolph looks like he will be good. All the rest of the receivers are a non-factor and need to be replaced with people that will make plays.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
by TuffLynx on Sep 27, 2011 8:27 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Disagree
Lions had 2 long ball catches — one in 2d half and one in OT, netting 10 points. Vikes had 2 long runs in 1st half (Lions had none at all throughout game) that netted Vikes 10 points. It’s a wash.
The Vikes scored 10 other points in 1st half (7 attributable to long punt return and great play by McNaab on 3d and goal) and 3 points in second half (could have been 6 if Frazier had stuck with his brain on 4th down). Not that much disparity in play of Vikes offense between the halves, other than 2 long runs, which offset the 2 long passes by Lions in 2d half and OT.
The real question is why did Vikes defense allow no other points in 1st half and 16 other points in 2d half?
KWill and Allen and even Robison are playing very well. Winfield is playing well, albeit not up to his playmaking ability in prior years. The rest of the D is just not playing consistently. That is a function of average players or weak players and poor coaching. That’s how I see it.
TiggerSr
I think you can't depend on Cook for the entire game
He’s a baller and he showed it against Jackson and CJ, but he’s not an elite cover back and he is going to get burned a couple of times a game.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Coverage
If there’s more than 2 DBs in the NFL who can go man-to-man with Megatron, and win even half the time, I’d be shocked. Considering that, the Viking’s secondary did an amazing job in that game, even taking into account that their job was made a lot easier by the pressure the DL applied up front.
Griff did a lot better on that OT catch by Megatron than I expected him to be capable of doing. And that ball was played so far out front that Megatron had to literally throw himself forward to haul it in, which is why he fell. There was no way Griff could have broken that up, short of a PI.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Exactly, and that is my point
The Vikings lack receivers that can play themselves open on ball skills. The VIkings lack receivers that gan go out and get the ball even when the QB does not put it in the best place to catch. There were two very important catches for Detroit, one by Titus Young late in the game, and one by Calvin Johnson in overtime, that ended up giving the game to Detroit. Sure, the Vikings had two long runs to offset that to some extent, but that is not my point.
What I am saying is that big time players make big time plays when the game is on the line. The Vikings are not finding a way to make plays when the adrenalin is going and the pucker factor is at its highest. Where were the superman running plays after the Lions had adjusted to the offensive game plan and the game was at stake?
Name me one team that has won a Super Bowl in recent times with the running game? You guys need to find a quarterback first and foremost. All the time you you spend turning Ponder into a starting caliber NFL quarterback is time the Vikings will be an also-ran. I am not going to profess that I have the right answers on how you should do that. All I know is the longer you take to get it done, the longer the time will be that the Vikings have trouble winning.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
We have covered this before
Recent Super Bowl winners who were better at rushing than passing
Ravens 01
Bucaneers 03
Steelers 06
Giants 08
Steelers 09
TiggerSr
OK, but you are still not correct.
All of those teams still had a good passing game and a good QB with the exception of Dilfer. You can’t even call the Vikings passing game average at this point. Yes, they were teams that had a strong running game, but they were not run only teams as the Vikings are right now. I am not saying that a good running game will not help the Vikings. I am saying that you are all run and no gun, and that hasn’t won in the NFL for a very long time.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
Vikes showed as much of a passing game against Bucs and Lions
as Bucs did in their Super Bowl year and the Ravens did in theirs. (Granted, game against Chargers was not good enough in any league to win.)
Harvin is one of the best slot receivers in the game, and can catch the ball even when thrown poorly. So can Rudolph, and sometimes Siancoe can too. Jenkins has shown that ability as well, as has Camarillo. What we don’t have is a fast and tall deep threat right now. It would be better if we did. but the assertion that we can’t win the SB without someone like that is demonstrably wrong, as the teams above (save perhaps the Giants) show.
I never said any team can win by running the ball only. Your assertion that the Vikings have no passing game at all is just incorrect by any objective measure. Plenty of teams have won the Super Bowl without a WR the caliber of Calvin Johnson. We don’t have to have a CJ to win the Super Bowl. That is my point.
TiggerSr
Well
“The Vikings lack receivers that can play themselves open on ball skills. The VIkings lack receivers that gan go out and get the ball even when the QB does not put it in the best place to catch”
Youmiss my point. The Lions lack RBs who can break open long runs when the hole is covered. The Lions lack RBs who can go out and get positive yards even the OL does not open a big hole.
You can try to sound so smart, but the truth is if Frazier had kicked the field goal, your “second” big reception in OT would never have occured, and your first big reception was not “when the game was on the line” — it was in the 3rd qtr, right?
There are lots of ways to get it done. It is hard to get it done at all, ij any way, when 40% to 60% of your OL is playing poorly and your defense falls apart in the 2d half every time. The problem is NOT just that we have Berrian instead of Rice or Moss, and it does not appear to be primarily McNaab, although better QB can compensate for alot, as Farve showed in 09.
TiggerSr
and you still miss my point...
The Lions are winning despite the lack of a running game because you can easily replace the running game with a short passing game. That is exactly how the Lions used Brandon Pettigrew against the Vikings. However, you cannot replace the lack of a passing game with a running game because it is not possible to consistently run the ball for 8 yard gains if you cannot pass enough to keep the defense honest.
You can focus on the Lions game all you want. It is pointless though because the problems with the Vikes go much deeper than beating the Lions. Your problems are endemic to the way the offense is performing. The Vikings defense is fine. If you insist on continuing to live and die by the running game in the NFL, you are going to die.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
by TuffLynx on Sep 27, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Back to what you said above
Sure, that catch by megatron wouldn’t have happended in OT if Frazier had kicked the FG. BUT, when the Lions were driving they kicked the tying FG on 4th and 2 to force OT. They would have gone for that 4th down and possibly picked it up and we could have lost in regulation right there(we would have been up 6, lions score TD/PAT, win by 1)
Skol!
But seriously, Tuff
You’re right. You can’t have a run-only offense and expect to win in the NFL. At some point, in every game, we’re going to have to ask our QB to make a play to keep the drive alive. It’s going to happen. All 32 NFL teams require their QB to make a play at some point…no QB…no W.
Skol!
The devil is in the language
I don’t know what you mean by “insist on continuing to live and die by the running game.” Who is insisting that? And what does that have to do with the quality or talent of the Vikes WRs, TEs, and QB?
The Vikes passed the ball well enough in the first half of both the Bucs game and the Lions game to win those games, and to beat most teams in the league, and win in the playoffs. Their problem is consistency. Perhaps a new OC, a new QB, a new TE, a new WR might have SOMETHING, just a wee bit, to do with that? No? Oh well, maybe you are right. Sure, we just suck. Yeah, Lions are clearly Super Bowl ready and we are clearly bottom dwellers. That is how the rest of the year will play out, and next year too.
Well seriously, I think perhaps you should think twice before coming to our site and telling us what is wrong with our players. It’s a great way to jinx your team (like the guy on this site before the Lions game who insistyed that because the Lions had not yet given up a sack, Stafford would have no problem picking apart the Vikes D with no one in his face.
Best of luck to the Lions; you guys are overdue. But you might have a problem winning in the playoffs with NO running game and your QB getting knocked all over the place by a second-string DE. Maybe the Lions need new personnel to win the SB?
TiggerSr
Hey I said I thought they did a good job
but like AD CJ is good enough that he’s just going to get his sooner or later. We stopped it for a while with some seriously hard charging pass rushes.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
The entire Vikings defense played great...
except for a couple of bad penalties down the stretch. I was impressed by Chris Cook. He defended Megatron as well as anybody has for a long time. He had a couple great pass breakups. I don’t think the defense bears any blame at all for the woes of the Vikings.
Your problem is completely about the lack of a consistent passing game. There is plenty of blame to go around on that. Some of it is the lack of protection for McNabb. Some of it is poor throws. Some of it lack of separation by receivers. Some of it is lack of chemistry between McNabb and his receivers. Some of it is the lack of a true deep threat for McNabb to stretch the field. But all of it is about the lack of a passing game.
Jim Schwartz had a great analogy about this. If you are a pitcher with a great fastball you cannot just throw the fastball all the time. Eventually the hitters will adjust and start hitting it. You need to mix in another pitch just to let the hitters know that you will. It prevents the hitters from adjusting as easily.
The same is true with an NFL offense. Your passing game must be effective enough to open the field for the running game, and vice versa. If you cannot pass the ball, the running game will suffer because the defenses will stack up to stop the run.
The only question here is how you fix it.
I never met him, but he was family to me... R.I.P. Tom Kowalski We will all miss you.
by TuffLynx on Sep 27, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps
you missed the first half of the game? We have a passing game that can complement the run game, but we only bring it out in the first half. It is a curious strategy, for sure, but it is not rair to say the Vikes have no passing game. Dr. Jeckyll has a passing game that is good enough to destroy 3 good teams. Mr. Hyde, on the other hand, can’t run or pass and can;’t stop the other team at all.
Your generalizations about the Vikes just miss the mark completely because they do not account for Dr. Jeckyll.
TiggerSr
I saw the first half of all the games and yes...
we lack a good passing game, overall, and need to acquire a better WR corps. Anyone can see that. Only Harvin and Jenkins are great and solid, respectively – everyone else is utterly bland at best.
Totally agree with this post AND your previous one, TuffLynx
Very well said. You’ve nailed it on the head. We need a new WR corps, badly. :(
get some points on the board in secont half
they been playing very good teams so far. @ half time good teams make adjustments and find a way to win!and for a team that hasnt scored in second half this yr. 4th.& 1 kick the field goal get something going was no way you gonna run and get a yard agaist the lions. they got the new version of the williams wall they could have won on the plus side mcnabb hasnt been thrown alot of picks something that ponder or webb would be doing they havnt dont nothing about ther oline ther main reason that they had to use all 3 qbs last yr. the same will probably happen this yr too maybe next yr . they draft the best lineman they can get and a big receiver
Uhhmm, isn't the obvious question
Why are we doing so poorly on 1st and 2d down in the second half as compared to the first half? I mean, the lousy conversion rate on 3d down in the 2d half seems like it can be largely attributed to the fact that the average distance on 3d down in 2d half is about 9-10 yards, whereas it is "only"about 6 yards in the first half. (Also, one needs to look at overall first downs in each half — if we are converting more first downs on 1st or second down in the first half, that too is a disparity that needs to be addressed.)
The most obvious culprit for lack of success on 1st and 2d down in the second half has to be AD’s reduced yards-per-carry in the second half, right? (Also, that screwy wildcat series in 2d half of Chargers game.)
Many have posted that defenses are stacking box in second half to stop AD because we have no WR threat. That is NOT what I have noticed. In fact, in 1st half against Lions, I saw Lions put 10 in the box against a 3 TE set, and AD STILL ran up the gut for 7-8 yards on first down. Later, he was stuffed for no gain with only 7 Lions in the box.
Here is thought — perhaps the sample size is really not big enough yet to attribute causation to the disparity. Maybe, just maybe, we are playing really good teams and on a few key 1st and second down plays in the first half, our OL has made key blocks and/or AD made some great reads and cuts, and on some key plays in the second half of each game, the D got the better of AD and the OL, or Musgrave got cocky and tried some stuff in the 2d half to be “aggressive” and not sit on a lead and it backfired. Maybe, just maybe, it is defensive players learning some tendencies about an OL’s look, stance, formation and getting that half step in the 2d half they didn’t get in the 1st half.
And it still is not clear to me why the defense is so effective in 1st half and not the second half. It does not appear to be endurance, as the let down happens early in the 3rd Qtr. While the offense has been “good” but not great in the first halves, the BIG disparity in the play of the Vikes between the halves, as far as points go, has been by the defense.
I have watched the first half on replay of all 3 games, and the Vikes look VERY good, with clearly enough talent and chemistry to win a lot of games. Maybe, just maybe, we should chill and not gove up hope. 3 game losing streaks happen to good teams and they can be overcome. It starts with a W against a weak team.
TiggerSr
Yeah I see that too
Just need something to get us over that hump, which is one reason I was thinking putting Ponder in. If he can get the team revved up I think we could see something pretty cool happen. I just don’t see it happening now though.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Endurance
And it still is not clear to me why the defense is so effective in 1st half and not the second half. It does not appear to be endurance, as the let down happens early in the 3rd Qtr.
Maybe so. But in the final series, the Vikings used up 3 timeouts on the defensive side of the ball and it looked to me like it was to give our D a chance to catch their breaths. They were performing like superheros in that series, but it did seem to take a lot of out of them to do it.
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Any one else notice
how well the redskins are playing without McNabb? I know they lost last night but Rex Grossman an average qb keeps his offense on the field.
Grossman is pathetic
Did you see the last play of the game last night? Grossman isn’t smart – and he doesn’t know his own limitations. For him to think he can scramble there – and then take a sack/fumble was completely unacceptable. This doesn’t mean that I think McNabb is better – I just don’t think much of Grossman either.
I agree about grossman
I’m just saying that last year the redskins couldn’t move the ball at all and this year, their offense is decent. grossman can at least complete some downfield throws and hit receivers in stride.
Agreed
I saw a crossing route where he hit Santana Moss in stride(very Percy like) and he scampered for like 30 yards and wasn’t touched until 30 yds downfield. It’s amazing how much better those guys are when they can catch and just keep running. Where was that Percy Harvin Screen pass in the 2nd half??? I think it was after the long run of AP(stiff armed the shit outta that DB) that got called back for holding on Jenkins …..ANYWAYS….Harvin took the WR bubble-screen and read his blocks perfectly(he’s very good at this)(he’s awesome) and picked up all 20 yds(following the 10-yd penalty) right away. First down Purp and we’re off. Where the hell was that later on? Those plays are so hard to defend because the DB needs to read and react immediately, no hesitation and he needs to make a perfect tackle on someone as talented as percy. If nothing else, those plays pick up 5 or 6 yards, keeps the Def spread out and works like a successful run.
Skol!
exactly. I don't care how accurate McNabb is if our receivers can't scamper after the catch he's failed.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
The Offensive line is the key to success.
We have been bitched about this offense line all last year and yet we did nothing to improve it. This off season we had better get some solid people up front. Draft a guy & pick up a free agent & things will fall into place. Lets get Ponder out there & let the kid play. He seems to throw well on the run. McNabb’s not terrible, but lets face it Ponder & Webb give us just as good a chance to win as McNabb. I’m sure we will see some growing pains but at least there out there trying to make a play.
It's not just third down
As you note, look at what they had left to get on those second half third downs.
But I’m not sure you’ve demonstrated the absence of Peterson in the second half. He’s not had much success in the second half, but is he getting proportionately fewer carries?
Also note not one running pay on third down in the second half.
No running play on 3rd down in 2nd half
That’s because it was all at least 3rd and 6 or longer, I believe
Skol!
Against Detroit
There was a 3rd and 1 and two 3rd and 5s.
Im going to go against the grain here...
I actually like the new rule change with the kickoff from the 35. For one as a vikings fan Longwell can’t even get a touchback from the 35 anymore, so imagine hime from the 30! Secondly it seems like there has been a lot more big plays off the kick off. Granted a lot more being stopped at like the 15, but it seems like with the extra 8 yards deep in the endzone they get more speed. Maybe it is just me, but it just seems like that to me!
1. Our OL was weak and we did NOTHING to improve it from last year
2. Our QB is a retread who’s most common pass is the massive under-throw.
3. Our reciever corps is diminished from last year…..Rice is gone, Burleson looks pretty nice in Detroit, eh, etc.
4. Our team is undisciplined with silly penalties
5. Our coach is a rookie who a.-doesnt trust the NFL’s best RB to carry the lead and b.-doesnt yet know how to make in-game scheme adjustments
by Marc Nu on Sep 27, 2011 10:54 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
There is a trend......"Pass for Berrian incomplete (not converted)"
Why is he being targeted on 3rd down in the second half?
He doesn’t have a single target on 3rd down in the first half of any game!
For some reason he’s still on the team, FINE, but can we please demote this chump already.
better question is why is he in there and not Harvin.
Hell put Harvin outside I still like our chances better.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
I can't blame Berrian a lot on those
They’re either thrown in the dirt, over his head, or out of bounds. He can’t make those plays. Not his fault.
Skol!
alligator Berrian
I am a Vike fan living in Chicago and let me tell you Berrian was always a failure…he gets Gator arms if a defender is near, fails to complete his routes, and drops ALOT…always did so here in Chicago…….Aromashidu is another Chicago castoff…..NEVER a go to reciever…the Vikes deserve a better receiver corp then this motely crew of cast-oofs that could make the cut on a crappy team like the Bears!!
So it seems like the consensus (by most folks) are the following issues:
1. Sub-par O-line that doesn’t give our mediocre QB enough time, leading to rushed passes
2. A mediocre QB at best, who lacks accuracy (perhaps related to point #1 above)
3. A mediocre (at best) Receiver corps – with only 2 really decent to great players: Jenkins and Harvin
4. Not enough AP – but this is as much related to the 3 points listed above as anything
5. Crummy coaching – Frazier clearly in over his head (at least so far, by the looks of it).
On a pleasant note, I don’t think our Secondary has proven as bad as we all feared it would be, all things considered. Again, huge props to Chris Cook for his excellent (some might say “breakout”) performance vs. the Lions.
I agree
On a pleasant note, I don’t think our Secondary has proven as bad as we all feared it would be, all things considered. Again, huge props to Chris Cook for his excellent (some might say "breakout") performance vs. the Lions.
Chris Cook played great against Megatron giving up height and a little speed but he was pretty much right there with him always.
by midnightwonder on Sep 27, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have the solution to the second half woes
keep doing the same in the first half.
In the second half put in Webb/Ponder. Try one and if not going well put in the other.
On defense put in extra DB or drop back LB to fill in the middle.

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