What is the problem with the Vikings?

by MarkSP18 on Sep 27, 2011 3:00 PM CDT

I suppose I may as well throw in my .02 cents too.

It all starts up front IMHO. Let us take a look at the runs AP has had shall we?

San Diego
1st Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 11:38
1st and 10 at MIN 20    A.Peterson left end to MIN 34 for 14 yards (T.Spikes, A.Garay).
1st and 10 at MIN 34    A.Peterson right end to MIN 37 for 3 yards (Q.Jammer, T.Spikes).
2nd and 7 at MIN 37    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 35 for -2 yards (C.Liuget, B.Sanders).

Minnesota Vikings at 5:30
1st and 10 at MIN 8    A.Peterson left end to MIN 10 for 2 yards (D.Butler, S.Phillips).
1st and 5 at MIN 32    A.Peterson right end to MIN 33 for 1 yard (T.Spikes, B.Sanders).
1st and 10 at SD 37    A.Peterson right end to SD 35 for 2 yards (Q.Jammer, T.Spikes).
2nd and 8 at SD 35    A.Peterson up the middle to SD 30 for 5 yards (A.Garay, T.Spikes).

2nd Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 5:30 (continuing drive from first quarter)
2nd and 9 at SD 18    A.Peterson up the middle to SD 15 for 3 yards (T.Spikes, A.Garay).

Minnesota Vikings at 11:12
2nd and 8 at SD 49    A.Peterson up the middle to SD 3 for 46 yards (B.Sanders).

Minnesota Vikings at 3:07
not involved

3rd Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 10:43
1st and 10 at MIN 20    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 23 for 3 yards (E.Weddle, T.Spikes).
1st and 10 at MIN 33    A.Peterson right end to MIN 37 for 4 yards (B.Sanders, C.Liuget).

Minnesota Vikings at 2:34
1st and 10 at MIN 31    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 36 for 5 yards (T.LaBoy).
2nd and 5 at MIN 36    A.Peterson right tackle to MIN 43 for 7 yards (S.Phillips).

4th Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 10:05
1st and 10 at MIN 28    A.Peterson left tackle to MIN 33 for 5 yards (D.Butler).
2nd and 5 at MIN 33    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 35 for 2 yards (S.Phillips, B.Sanders).

Minnesota Vikings at 5:01
2nd and 8 at MIN 22    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 20 for -2 yards (D.Butler, T.Spikes).

Total is 16 carries for 98 yards with one run accouting for 46 of those yards leaving 15 carries for 52 yards. He had 6 runs for 2 yards or less. He had another 3 runs for 3 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYWvvqbytVI
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Tampa Bay
1st Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 13:00
1st and 10 at MIN 36    A.Peterson right guard to MIN 47 for 11 yards (S.Jones).
1st and 10 at MIN 47    A.Peterson right end pushed ob at TB 43 for 10 yards (S.Jones).

Minnesota Vikings at 6:43
1st and 10 at MIN 10    A.Peterson left guard to MIN 12 for 2 yards (R.Miller; M.Foster).
1st and 10 at MIN 26    A.Peterson left end to MIN 25 for -1 yards (R.Barber).
2nd and 11 at MIN 25    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 37 for 12 yards (M.Foster).
1st and 7 at TB 7    A.Peterson up the middle to TB 5 for 2 yards (R.Miller).
2nd and 5 at TB 5    A.Peterson up the middle to TB 1 for 4 yards (Q.Black).
3rd and 1 at TB 1    A.Peterson up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.

2nd Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 12:51
1st and 10 at MIN 24    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 24 for no gain (M.Foster). FUMBLES (M.Foster), recovered by MIN-A.Herrera at MIN 21.
2nd and 13 at MIN 21    A.Peterson right guard to MIN 33 for 12 yards (R.Barber).
1st and 10 at MIN 49    A.Peterson up the middle to TB 47 for 4 yards (M.Bennett; S.Jones).
1st and 6 at TB 6    A.Peterson right guard to TB 6 for no gain (Q.Black).

Minnesota Vikings at 3:39
1st and 10 at MIN 40    A.Peterson right end to MIN 41 for 1 yard (G.Hayes).
2nd and 9 at MIN 41    A.Peterson left guard to TB 40 for 19 yards (M.Foster).
2nd and 9 at TB 9    A.Peterson right guard for 9 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

3rd Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 15:00
1st and 10 at MIN 20    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 21 for 1 yard (G.McCoy).
2nd and 9 at MIN 21    A.Peterson left tackle to MIN 27 for 6 yards (G.McCoy).
3rd and 18 at MIN 12    (Shotgun) A.Peterson right guard to MIN 17 for 5 yards (M.Bennett).

Minnesota Vikings at 7:38
1st and 10 at MIN 47    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 44 for -3 yards (G.Hayes).

4th Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 0:29 (of third quarter)
1st and 10 at MIN 31    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 40 for 9 yards (C.Grimm).
2nd and 1 at MIN 40    A.Peterson left guard to MIN 45 for 5 yards (R.Miller).
1st and 10 at TB 20    A.Peterson up the middle to TB 16 for 4 yards (Team).
1st and 10 at TB 10    A.Peterson up the middle to TB 11 for -1 yards (B.Price).

Minnesota Vikings at 6:39
2nd and 4 at MIN 15    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 22 for 7 yards (G.McCoy).
2nd and 10 at MIN 22    A.Peterson right end to MIN 26 for 4 yards (R.Miller).

Total is 25 carries for 125 yards. He had 9 runs for 2 yards or less not including his touchdown run. This game was not too bad but there is a clear decline in the second half.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M_G-xTXqdg
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Detroit
1st Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 15:00
1st and 10 at MIN 23    A.Peterson left guard to MIN 26 for 3 yards (E.Wright).
3rd and 1 at MIN 32    A.Peterson right guard to MIN 33 for 1 yard (N.Suh).
1st and 10 at MIN 33    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 37 for 4 yards (K.Vanden Bosch).
2nd and 6 at MIN 37    A.Peterson right tackle to DET 20 for 43 yards (C.Houston).
2nd and 14 at DET 14    (Shotgun) A.Peterson right guard to DET 14 for no gain (J.Durant).

Minnesota Vikings at 7:55
1st and 10 at DET 42    A.Peterson up the middle to DET 35 for 7 yards (D.Levy).
1st and 10 at DET 20    A.Peterson right end to DET 14 for 6 yards (L.Delmas).

Minnesota Vikings at 3:26
1st and 10 at MIN 42    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 43 for 1 yard (C.Avril).
2nd and 9 at MIN 43    A.Peterson right end to MIN 42 for -1 yards (S.Tulloch). PENALTY on MIN-S.Hutchinson, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced

at MIN 43 - No Play.
1st and 10 at DET 48    A.Peterson up the middle pushed ob at DET 19 for 29 yards (C.Houston; D.Levy). Penalty on MIN-V.Shiancoe, Offensive Holding, offsetting, enforced at DET 48 - No Play. Penalty on DET-Sa.Hill, Unnecessary Roughness, offsetting.

2nd Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 9:05
1st and 10 at DET 26    A.Peterson up the middle to DET 25 for 1 yard (S.Tulloch).
2nd and 4 at DET 6    A.Peterson left end for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Minnesota Vikings at 3:47
1st and 10 at MIN 4    A.Peterson up the middle to MIN 5 for 1 yard (J.Durant).

Minnesota Vikings at 0:50
1st and 10 at DET 13    (Shotgun) A.Peterson up the middle to DET 13 for no gain (N.Suh).

3rd Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 12:23
1st and 10 at MIN 20    A.Peterson left guard to MIN 22 for 2 yards (S.Tulloch).

Minnesota Vikings at 9:22
not involved

Minnesota Vikings at 3:14
2nd and 7 at MIN 23    A.Peterson right tackle to MIN 29 for 6 yards (Sa.Hill).

4th Quarter Play by Play
Minnesota Vikings at 14:55
1st and 10 at DET 37    A.Peterson right end to DET 23 for 14 yards (S.Tulloch). PENALTY on MIN-M.Jenkins, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at

DET 37 - No Play.
1st and 10 at DET 26    A.Peterson up the middle to DET 27 for -1 yards (N.Suh; L.Delmas).
2nd and 11 at DET 27    A.Peterson left end to DET 25 for 2 yards (D.Levy).

Minnesota Vikings at 5:20
2nd and 10 at MIN 18    A.Peterson left end to MIN 14 for -4 yards (J.Durant).

Minnesota Vikings at 2:30
1st and 10 at MIN 17    (Shotgun) D.McNabb pass short middle to A.Peterson to MIN 24 for 7 yards (B.McDonald; D.Levy). Penalty on DET-C.Williams,

Defensive Offside, declined.
1st and 10 at MIN 41    (Shotgun) D.McNabb pass short left to A.Peterson to MIN 44 for 3 yards (E.Wright).

Total is 17 carries for 78 yards with one run accouting for 43 of those yards leaving 16 carries for 35 yards. He had 9 runs for 2 yards or less. He had another 2 runs for 3 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o12tzXs2j5M
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Through the first 3 games he has 58 carries for 301 yards which is an average of 5.19 per carry. Not bad at all.

But if you look closer he has two runs for 89 yards which is mainly all due to his ability. So that brings his numbers down to 56 carries for 212 yards which is an average of 3.79 per carry.

If you drill down further you will see that he has had 24 carries for 2 yards or less for a total of 7 whole yards over the first 3 games. He has 10 carries that gained zero yards or lost yards which is 17% of his carries.

In total he gains two yards or less 41% of the time he touches the ball and this is spread out over the entire game (it is not just in the second half). This cannot be good.

I will also go further and say that if not for his ability to make jump cuts or just make people flat out miss then the numbers would be worse. Watch the videos and notice how many plays where he is making people miss before he gets to the line of scrimmage.

Detroit was blowing up the line on several plays and there were at least two plays where they almost tackled AP when he took the freaking handoff.

When you pay a player 36 mil guaranteed then you want to get maximum production from that player. But the line is just not getting the job done on a consistent enough basis. I realize that there are going to be plays where a lineman is going to get beat because there are some good defensive players in the league. But if AP is getting two yards or less on 41% of his carries then they are wasting money and his abilities.

I suppose the team does realize this is a situation that needs to be addresses since they brought in Max Starks for a look. But if they do not add him or another player then what can they do?

IMHO the main problem in the second half of the games is the offensive line. They are are just not winning enough of the battles as the game goes on. They seem to come out fired up and are making plays but as the game settles down, the talent starts to speak for itself.

I think there are several factors at play here that are causing the second half ineffectiveness from the offense. Obviously teams are putting more men in the box to stop AP and dare the Vikings to beat them with the pass. This brings us to protection issues in the pass game as well and the ability of the wide receivers to create some separation (i.e. get open enough and quickly) in order for a pass to be even attempted.

Even if we have all of the above we have another issue with McNabb firing too many passes to the worms. I will say though that since he does have a 59% career completion percentage that it is not a surprise. He is right at 58% now so he is doing what he has always has done. Anyone expecting him to get a lot better is kidding themselves. I think he can do better but we then have to look at the wide receivers to see who is getting open. Passes that take long to develop (deep patterns) will require longer pass protection which seems to be a problem at times. I just cannot blame McNabb for this situation since he is there during the first half of games and leading the team to the leads in these games. It is not just him in the second half of these games IMHO.

There really is no single thing that you can put your finger on and say if they fix this then the rest will follow.

It still comes down to the big boys up front playing much better than they have been playing thus far. If AP can gain more than two yards per carry on at least 75% of his carries as opposed to 60% of his carries then we will be moving in the right direction which is down the field.

It has to start up front.

Bringing in Ponder is not going to change anything IMHO. They may decide to do it and I will hope that he does well but the same problems will still exist up front and at the WR position. Maybe Ponder will be a little more accurate? Maybe.

Here is a link to 1500espn.com and a review of the game done by Tom Pelissero ..

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Breaking_down_the_tape_from_the_Vikings_loss_to_the_Lions092711

Notice where he says these things ...

"on a day the protection unit hemorrhaged pressure on 20 of 42 pass plays (47.6%)"

"The Lions did it all while rushing five or more only 10 times in McNabb's 38 dropbacks (26.3%), while the Vikings countered with at least one extra blocker 16 times (41.0%)."

The offensive line graded out the worst with McNabb not far behind. I am not high on McNabb but I really do not want to send one of the younger guys out to play behind this line until it is absolutely necessary.

So the answer to as to why we are in this situtation lies in the drafts that we have had since 2006 when Childress & Foley ruined that draft. But that is for another post.

This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.

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Very insightful and informative

But, 2 key disagreements:

First, of lesser importance, is your assertion that “I think there are several factors at play here that are causing the second half ineffectiveness from the offense. Obviously teams are putting more men in the box to stop AP and dare the Vikings to beat them with the pass” — That is not obvious to me at all. In fact, I have watched AD bust open good runs against 10 men in the box in the first half — he did it against the Lions. What I also saw against the Lions is that when they lined up with only 7 in the box and the Vikes had 2-3 WRs, the Lions would blitz all 3 LBs — resulting in 7 guys at the line stuffing AD on run plays or in pressure on McNaab that disrupted the pass plays. I have seen no correlation between the number of defenders in the box and the success of AD running the ball.

Second, I am dubious of your implicit explanation of the inconstent play of the OL (which I agree has been inconsistent and poor for the most part, and horrendous in the second half). You say "They are are just not winning enough of the battles as the game goes on. They seem to come out fired up and are making plays but as the game settles down, the talent starts to speak for itself. " This goes back to the disagreement you and I have had before about “talent” versus scheme and/or determination and attitude. I find it curious that you now suggest that a weak OL can overcome his lack of talent by coming out “fired up.”?? You think Suh was not “fired up” in the first half?

I don’t buy that. Perhaps you are right. But my gut thinks there is more to it than that.

In the end, I agree that Ol is the key for inconsistent performance by the Offense, except for BB, who just sucks.

Does not erxplain inconsitency of the defense, which has swung a wider doisparity between first half and second half in all 3 games than the offense has.

TiggerSr

by TiggerSr on Sep 27, 2011 3:28 PM CDT reply actions

The inconsistent defense is fairly easy to explain, imho

They’re older and get tired faster. Our entire team needs to become younger and better (much as it galls me to say this – like the hated Packers are). :(

by Wytefang on Sep 27, 2011 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions

Even easier. The more the Defense is on the field the bigger the advantage is for the Offense.

The Vikes have the ball most of the first quarter. Inconsistent play? Sort of. But it is the absolute norm for the situation.

"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist
and that there are as few as there are any other great artists.
Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts
since the medium is the human mind and spirit."

by Edgecrusher71 on Sep 27, 2011 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions

The DLine should be fine in the future - but elsewhere i would agree

Robison is still young, Griffen looks like he has started to apply himslef and looks to be the heir to Allen’s spot when he starts slowing down. You cant replace a K.Williams unless we get lucky in the draft but i have high hopes for Ballard.

My concern is the LB position. It has been seen as one of our strongest areas for a long time now but E.J doesnt have much left in the tank and Erin still has a lot to prove. Could really do with drafting another stud LB soon.

As for the Dbacks – I dont want to speak too soon about Cook but it looks like he has turned the corner and will be a player for us but Griffen and Winfield will need to be replaced soon. Hopefully Sanford and Abdullah can continue to improve.

by Scottish Viking on Sep 29, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions

Thanks for the response

All I know for sure is that when AP is getting less than 2 yards 41% of the time then that is not good enough. Plain and simple. No matter how many people are in the box that cannot be a winning statistic.

If you are going to give him that much money then get some guys in front of him that can give him more opportunities to do what he does best.

I could be all wrong though. The line could actually be doing a pretty good job. But I am not the only one who thinks that they are not.

by MarkSP18 on Sep 27, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions

his whole career

hes had plent of 2 or less yard runs . lets go back to pre favre didnt ap lead the entire nfl in rushing that year and since then his carries per game has been more frequently less than 25 .teams maybe stacking the box in second half to hopefully make vikes audible to pass. cuz they are wearing down tackling ap . petersons will to win is greater than all bloggers combined for 100 mill its in ad we trust . so coaches lets trust it . 8 in box if he gets through it its 3 to stop him then . stiff arm plow or juke ap usually cant be taken down by one man . defense stacks right side audible to pitch left . cant be overloaded on both sides of line if they are up the gut is a 3 on 3. pitch left on right overload is a 4 on 4 . c,g,t,wr. dt de lb cb. its still better than a behind reciever throw from mcnabb or dropsies by bb .

by skol viking on Sep 27, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions

He's never really had a good line

During the Childress era, the Vikings lead the league in No gains or negative yardage. Could be the line? I would think so. Personaly, this sounds a little out there, but I think they need to give themselves about another 6 in. on their splits. Helps spread the DL out a little and will add some much needed space. Sure, it makes it easier for blitzers to find their gaps, but AP will take care of them.

Skol!

by DM_Purp on Sep 27, 2011 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions

6 in on their splits would help the run but they stink at pass protect and it would kill them

in 2009 one of the things they changed in the beginning of the season was to narrow down the split to help get Favre more time in the pocket. It worked and helped AD by stretching the field.

We need new linemen it’s just that simple.

I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass

by Grime on Sep 28, 2011 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions

The O-line was excellent in AD's first year

Of course, it was captained by Matt Birk, back then, and I suspect he did a fair bit of motivation there too. The man was more than ‘just’ an perennial Pro Bowl center, he was also a leader.

Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!

by DCPurple on Sep 28, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions

Although, that San Fran game was a 17 yard game that year.

I think it’s a combination of things. Our O-line hasn’t been dominant for awhile. I look at goal line and 4th and 1 plays when we ask the O-line to use brute strength to move the line of scrimmage. They haven’t won the line of scrimmage game for years now — going back to late Mike Tice days.

However, Peterson also compounds the problem at times by not hitting the holes that are there and also lacking patience on his way to the line. He gets the ball at full speed and then often finds himself stopping and changing directions when he gets to the line of scrimmage. He loses momentum in that situation and becomes an average back with an average chance of getting through the line for a solid gain when that happens.

That’s my opinion anyway.

by kcskol on Sep 28, 2011 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions

I think thats the meat of it right there

Our Oline is in shambles. Our tackles get beat to the outside constantly and Sully is just overmatched against some of the larger DTs in the league without help. Hutch and Herrera seem to be doing fine but when you can only say that 40% of your line is doing their jobs, its a problem.

by Amrius on Sep 27, 2011 3:38 PM CDT via mobile reply actions

Very nice job Mark

Made me think about it a little different. I can see someone who has to give it his all every down just to be competitive having issues in the second half. Also, it would be interesting to see if putting Toby in the first half a bit more so AD isn’t getting pummeled quite as much would allow him to have a better fresher second half.

Let’s hope that Starks has improved his conditioning, I wouldn’t mind having someone playing in Loadholt’s position right now that man is a disgrace.

I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass

by Grime on Sep 27, 2011 3:50 PM CDT reply actions

Methinks it is going to be a long year

Unless the problem really is McNabb and playing Ponder or Webb is going to make a huge difference then I do not see the line getting better.

What I really hope happens is that they play Love, Fusco, and Brown a few series during each game to give the starters a rest. I never understood why the defense rotates their linemen and the offense does not. They get a little tired too. Maybe if they got a rest for a few snaps or a whole series it would help? I do not know but I sure would not mind seeing the younger guys play a little.

by MarkSP18 on Sep 27, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions

wondered same thing about o line

by skol viking on Sep 27, 2011 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm ok with getting the young ones in there a little bit, but not too much

Just because they got owned a little bit in preseason against B squads so that doesn’t help much. It’s really unfortunate that McKinnie blew up(literally) in our face, Loadholt is basically on the verge of getting cut(in third year, it’s officially a bust), Sully can’t move anybody. Hutch is about all we have. I seriously couldn’t even tell you who our RG is, that’s how bad things have gotten. I don’t think it was Herrera or DeGeare like we thought….isn’t it like some Brown? guy? Not sure, anyways, we seriously need some help there. I wouldn’t be surprised if our first 3 picks next April are linemen. No one should feel safe on our team. If Sully’s not getting it done, put in Fusco. If Loadholt gets owned like he does, then what is so bad about putting Love in? Nothing. And last, but not least, if Mcnabb can’t hit anyone who’s wide open when he has time to throw the ball, he should be benched and/or cut. I’m sorry, but what’s the point? There’s no reason to have Webb/Ponder sitting on the sidelines when they can go out there and not turn the ball over and handoff to Peterson. All they have to do is either throw their 3rd down pass into the dirt or throw it out of bounds. That’s all McNabb’s doing.

Skol!

by DM_Purp on Sep 27, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions

The O line needs to work together

The longer an O line works together the better they should be doing.. :p Obviously we have problems, I would enjoy seeing Love and Fusco in there as well, Brown I’m not certain on because I think Hererra and Hutch are probably playing better than he would right now.

I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass

by Grime on Sep 28, 2011 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions

Gotta hope Love & Fusco pan out

at least better than what we have. Then we will be on our way to a rebuilt line especially we add another couple lineman in next years draft. Otherwise it will be a long rebuild, probably after the current front office is gone.

by Simply_Greatness on Sep 29, 2011 2:50 AM CDT up reply actions

Great write up as always Mark

I think you nailed it. If the Oline play better in the second half, we would run better and be able to let McNabb have more time to throw. Now, I don’t know if this extra time would make a whole lot of difference, but it would at least give us a better shot at completing more passes. I think McNabb might just not be good enough at the moment though. If he is going to continue to pass like this, we might as well get it from a rookie. The only problem with that is, if you put a rookie out there, with our Oline, he is more than likely going to get slammed. I don’t want a David Carr situation. It is almost like a catch 22.

The WR issue is also another piece of the puzzle. Berrian just shouldn’t be out there. I understand they think he has the most experiance, but he just flat out sucks. I see Troy Williamson more and more every game from him. How much worse would it be if DA was out there, or even Camarillo. They aren’t going to go deep and get open very much, but we’ve only throw down field (past 25 yards) like 2 or 3 times so far, seems stupid to keep him out there imo.

by FSUViking on Sep 27, 2011 4:08 PM CDT reply actions

Quick question I forgot to ask...

Do you think we will see the Line shuffled at all or do you think it will stay pretty much status quo?
I think Loadholt and/or Johnson might be better gaurds, I just wonder how likely it is that they would get a look at those positions though.

by FSUViking on Sep 27, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions

I do not know about the shuffuling of the line

I do not know that much. I just know what the results have been thus far.

I will say though that there have been some runs by AP where he did not plow into the hole and take the 3 to 4 yards and tried to bounce it and lost yards as a result.

It really is not just one thing. You need a WR or two that worries the defense to prevent them from stacking the box. You need AP to just get the most yards as possible. But this may take away from what makes him special so what can you do? You need the line to play better. Maybe only 5% better? Something. You need WRs to not drop passes on crucial third downs which kills drives.

It is just not one thing but having the line be a little more effective would cure a lot of the ails IMHO.

I do not think they will shuffle. They play some younger guys though.

by MarkSP18 on Sep 27, 2011 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions

Thank You

I was saying all off season how it didn’t matter who we had at qb behind this line, poor pass blocking means no passing threat. No passing threat makes the offense one dimensional and a lot easier for the defense to stop AP. I place the blame partly on Childress, for signing 3 mediocre wide receivers in 4 consecutive weeks in order to bring in fresh faces for Favre to throw to in order to alleviate that “lack of practice with his wide receivers” problem. Didn’t make much sense to me.

That just squandered capital and time….the real problem lies within Frazier and Spielman. Both were around for the full season last year. Both knew the weaknesses in the offensive line. Neither did anything to correct the problem. Their draft strategy was not one where they wanted to protect any qb. The same goes for the free agent market….they went after Charlie Johnson, who, at this time, might as well wear a uniform made out of yellow flags. Or perhaps the Vikings can negotiate a truce…just penalize us 50 yrds at the start of the game.

by Chris3 on Sep 27, 2011 4:25 PM CDT reply actions

It might not be that bad in the whole

You get a QB this year. He has a year to sit. You pick up some solid O line next year and now you have a QB with some NFL experience and a better O Line. Not the worst possibility. Fact is we as fans have to be a bit patient.

I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass

by Grime on Sep 28, 2011 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions

Might be the reason they brought Mcnabb in

was to take the hits because they knew they couldn’t fix the line this year because of the salary cap and shortened off-season.

by Simply_Greatness on Sep 29, 2011 2:53 AM CDT up reply actions

Its all about the passing game

I think the reason that the second half has seen a drop off in rushing success, is exactly that teams are not worried about the passing game. Once they see that McNabb is garbage and Percy Harvin is not a factor, they bring more pressure in the box to stop the only weapon the Vikings have….Adrian Peterson.

I think their performance at the beginning of games could be maintained if defenses had to respect the pass. If the O-line can block a little in the first half, that ability doesnt just disappear, but it becomes a lot more difficult when defenses adjust to Minnesota’sone dimensional offense.

I guarantee you would see more room for AP and bit less pressure if the Vikes had some semblance of a passing game.

Just sounds like more excuses for the underachieving McNabb.

Time to realize that teams with bad QB’s just dont win games….

by alec j on Sep 27, 2011 6:09 PM CDT reply actions

McNabb all year?

We might have to play McNabb all year until we can get o-line help for next year.

by medicineball on Sep 27, 2011 6:30 PM CDT reply actions

I don't think he's going to last all year

he was holding his wrist after he tried to slap Suh immediately after releasing a pass down the field(fell short like 10 yds)(no surprise).

Skol!

by DM_Purp on Sep 27, 2011 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions

All year

my sense, too. Why get Ponder beat up and shook before we’re ready with some protection.

Let’s try some creative things with McNabb while he’s here. like my wishbone dual back formation suggestion below.

by firstand10 on Sep 27, 2011 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions

I say put Ponder in

His strength both in college and in the preseason games was his ability to throw accurate, short passes while on the run.

accurate – unlike McNabb
short passes – might as well, Berrian isn’t catching long ones, anyway
on the run – McNabb can’t run like he used to

by rovibe on Sep 27, 2011 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions

mobility wouldn't hurt with this line...

I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass

by Grime on Sep 28, 2011 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions

I think you’re reaching on the mobility part. I think the one thing that has surprised me the most is how mobile McNabb has looked, and how many potential sacks he’s managed to sneak out of.

Ponder might be faster than him but I seriously doubt his pocket presence is even half of what McNabb’s is at this point.

Fire Slocum

by packallday555 on Sep 28, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions

McNabb has actually looked pretty nifty on some sideline runs for first downs.

I don’t think mobility is a problem for him. Accuracy on his throws is the biggest problem with McNabb. If he you are going to throw the short passes, YAC is the most important thing. When the receiver has to stop in his tracks to catch the ball, they are not going anywhere after the catch.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!

by bf4mvp on Sep 29, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions

Why do you assume

that there´s a problem with the Vikings? They´re just doing what they do best – finding new and increasingly interesting ways to crush a fan´s hearts :)

At least we got to OT this time… and we are improving!! → from 17:7 to 17:0 to 20:0 and counting… ah well, a little cynicism makes being a Viking soooo much easier most of the time.

"First team in NFL history to lose first 3 games after leading by double digits at halftime"
Only 3 games in, and we´ve already made history... :)

by AustrianViking on Sep 27, 2011 6:32 PM CDT reply actions

True...I don't think I'm the only fan screaming at the team for our defense to score a TD because in the second half i don't believe our offense is capable.

Skol!

by DM_Purp on Sep 27, 2011 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions

I was thinking the same thing

the only way they will win is if the defense scores in the second half because the offense obviously can’t.

by Simply_Greatness on Sep 29, 2011 2:54 AM CDT up reply actions

I'd like to see them

run a wishbone formation once in a while. With two quality backs it would give us some flexibility— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishbone_offense

The contrast with a pro set or west coast is stark; instead of the offense being outnumbered 11-10 on running plays (the quarterback isn’t contributing anything but a turkey imitation), if it’s done right the DEFENSE is effectively being outnumbered something like 12 or 13 – 11. Note that when the Olahoma QB went to throw the ball in the vid below there was never more than one defender anywhere near the receiver since you simply couldn’t have a zone pass defense when you had to have nine or ten guys right up on the line to have any prayer of stopping that ground game.

e.g. Oklahoma – Colorado 1971 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AxulqVSWf0&feature=related

by firstand10 on Sep 27, 2011 6:44 PM CDT reply actions

Key phrase:

Colorado 1971

There’s a reason they don’t formations like this anymore.

Skol!

by DM_Purp on Sep 27, 2011 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions

Your analysis welcome

one reason is that the qb is a target on almost every play. Okay, so McNabb is already a target.

by firstand10 on Sep 27, 2011 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions

Snooze

pro ball dont use it because defenses are way quiker and you dont really get the mismatches.
(the very reason it was created). To be succesfull it needs to get outside and defense in the pro level is way to fast for it. Walsh used it in the 87 strike cause replacement players from collage understood it and he ran it down Parcelss throat. The Colts tried it in a pre season game in 72 under Jack Mildren. They ran it 60 to 70 yards and the defense adjusted and that ended that. Also to note todays hits and defense you would have to carry a half dozen QB’s to stay alive a season.

@}-----You've been Touched-----{@

by Velvetouch on Sep 28, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions

The problem

No O-Line – worse than last year and that is saying something.

No Legit #1WR threat. I love Harvin, use him everywhere and than have a legit #1WR to complement…

The draft could have addressed both.

I'll have your mother call you shortly.

by VikesPma on Sep 27, 2011 7:28 PM CDT reply actions

Moss is still out there, if he can "get it" that he's on his last life...

by firstand10 on Sep 27, 2011 7:45 PM CDT reply actions

Pretty sure

that he would be the most talented WR on the field for the Vikes. There’s a reason though that the rest of the teams aren’t taking out flyers at least on him (at least to my knowledge – there might have been a rumor a week or two ago but don’t remember it.

by abba7 on Sep 27, 2011 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions

First a rumor about hooking up with Brees and then when Miles Austin got hurt, with Tony Romo.

Both false.
Also raised was the possibility of taking Kenny Brits’ place with Titans but Titans said HELL NO!

by izziefans on Sep 29, 2011 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions

Agree ....Mostly

I have been commenting every game about AP’s yards per carry netting out his one or two big runs and highlighting the production decline in the second half. That is the problem. If 40% of the time we are second and 8 or 3rd and 8 after a McNabb incompletion, it is hard to do much. To me, there are two things we should be doing more:

1. More play action, to keep the D a little more honest (granted………this may not be much of a threat) and to mix it up a bit on offense. We are awfully predictable.

2. Give Gerhart more carries. Why? 1. AP needs a break more often to able to sustain his production in the second hafl. 2. Give the defense more pounding and have them adjust to a different back. 3. Gerhart (last game aside) gets stuffed less than Peterson. Gerhart averaged 4 yards per carry last year because he was getting 3,4 or 5 yards on most carries. This makes a huge difference in working toward first downs. Gerhart was among the leaders last year in avoiding carries for loss or no gain. Top 5 I think as a percentage of his carries. 4. Last year has shown that when Gerhart gets 6 – 10 carries a game, he develops a rythym and is more productive. True at Stanford also. This year he has shown he can break it downfield, with a 31 yard run and a 42 yard screen pass.

AP is great. But that does not mean he cannot be greater – or more importantly, have more impact when we need him, if Gerhart shares the load a bit more.

IMHO.

by hoyaparanoia on Sep 27, 2011 8:02 PM CDT reply actions

I agree

I’d like to see plenty of Gerhart and AP on the field together, and Gerhart getting more touches than he has been.

It drives me nuts when I can see the down and distance, formation and who’s on the field and immediately know what they’re going to do (generally with running plays). If I can do that, than any NFL defender can do it in his sleep. They are still way too predictable, especially with AP.

Getting Gerhart more involved and using 2 back sets more (including pass plays) might keep the defense guessing more than they are now. I still see too many plays called that are completely telegraphed before the snap, and that isn’t going to get them anywhere. The problem goes beyond that. Where are the multiple TE’s and bunch sets they used in the preseason? How about moving Harvin around like they said they would?

Still looks like last year’s offense, now with the second-half letdows for good measure.

by rovibe on Sep 27, 2011 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions

Don't even the great ones do a lot of grinding?

I can remember plenty of Payton runs that didn’t exactly go 4+ yards. Barry Sanders had the most negative plays of ANY running back in history. You still kept feeding them the ball because all it took was one play.

If Frazier and your OC had committed to the run and ground some clock, I’m pretty confident that comeback never happens.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Sep 27, 2011 9:18 PM CDT reply actions

The answer is obvious

start playing like s**t in the first half and you’ll dominate in the second half! Hey, it works for the opposition.

by Bodysuit Man on Sep 27, 2011 9:28 PM CDT reply actions

Can't pick up the blitz

This is year two that the Vikings can’t pick up a blitz. Teams blitz mire when they are behind. As good a runner as AD is, he can’t block. This is the #1 issue for us.

Second, special teams has been great and either scored or set up scores so the points we have scored by good offensive possissions is even fewer.

Three, the team is not in proper condition.

Four, our QB has not been accurate. For example, pass to Harvin for first down where Harvin has to go to the ground to catch it. If ball hits him in the numbers, instead of a first down, it’s a touchdown.

Finally, in an era where running the ball no longer is important, the Vikings are a running team.

by Vikefandc on Sep 28, 2011 4:59 AM CDT via mobile reply actions

Same issues as last year.

I thought Ap had more runs for no gain so it was nice to see I was wrong. it’s disturbing that the vikes haven’t fixed the same problems they had last season. Taking BB out of the equation, because he’s useless, there are still some very good receivers on this team. if they can’t get separation, the coaches should be designing plays to help them. so why haven’t they? when other teams have oline issues, they go to a max protect scheme and that allows their qb the extra time to complete passes. why doesn’t this work for the vikes. it’s inexcusable that the RB, TE can’t pick up a blitz and defenders run free.

by FlFan on Sep 28, 2011 7:33 AM CDT reply actions

this can be summed up a lot easier...

YPC is a flawed stat and doesn’t even tell half the story. personally, i don’t put too much stock in AP running for 2yds or less x-% of the time; he frequently makes big plays out of nothing and breaks tackles to create extra yardage — stat lines don’t show that. but i digress.

the problem is the play calling.

why did we pass on 3rd & 1??
why didn’t AP get the ball on 4th & 1??
why are we running the ball fewer times in the 2nd half when we have double-digit leads?! it’s mind boggling!!

whether it’s Musgrave or LF, the coaches are outsmarting themselves. the biggest problem is we lose control of the clock in the 2nd half when we’ve OWNED the clock in the 1st half, every single game so far. i always hated the predictability of the Chilly-era offense (run on 1st down, run on 2nd down), but when it’s working i don’t mind… especially when it’s working when we have a lead and we can milk the crap out of the clock. the problem is, we revert back to that predictability when the run is ineffective in a one-possession game. just saying, when AP busts out a 6yd rush to create a 3rd & 1 situation, give him the damn ball instead of throwing an incomplete pass, which does Detroit a favor in stopping the clock!!

yes, it’s on the players to perform — but a few stupid decisions in the clutch have cost us dearly and our opponents took advantage of them. the coaches need to use common friggin’ sense to preserve our momentum and quit the cute crap.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Sep 28, 2011 9:05 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs

I have to disagree respectfully

If you watch some of these clips you will see AP having to make something out of nothing more often then not. Also, because he does this often it does get him in trouble and he becomes the reason for the short gains.

You said it yourself though “he frequently makes big plays out of nothing and breaks tackles to create extra yardage”.

He needs to NOT have to do this as often as he does. If the line was just a little better then he could have even more yards per game and long runs.

There is no question that the line is not up to snuff. After giving AP all that money they need to give him as good a line as possible in order to maximize his abilities IMHO.

That is what I am talking about.

by MarkSP18 on Sep 28, 2011 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions

Man i would like to see AD run through a hole the six feet wide just once this year.

Get up a head of steam and stomp on some DB on his way to a TD…

I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass

by Grime on Sep 28, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions

yep rj, playcalling and ball/clock control are a bit baffling to me also.

and adrian peterson is a unique back. he makes something out of nothing….sometimes.
so his ypc stat doesn’t tell the real story. if he breaks one run for 43 yards, and gets stuffed
a whole bunch of times, it’s only helping the team on one play, and then the defense stacks
the box and thus hurts the team on a whole lot of plays because of the fact our o-line is lame.

i think that a less dangerous back would probably fair better getting 20 carries a game cuz
the defense would not be stacking the box against him. and i think this would actually help
our passing game too, and we could be effective at being a balanced attack.

with peterson, i think we need to use him for what he is. AD stands for “ALL DAY”. i think he
got that nick name for a reason. if we pay him such huge money, then we should use him.
the excuse that we don’t want to wear him out is lame too. he is in his prime right now. he is
actually not going to get any better than he currently is. he will start to fall off probably next year.
if we pay him huge like this, we should damn well use him while he still has it, imo.

you are right, if we keep pounding him in the second half, then we control the clock and wear
out the other team’s defense. if we run adrian 10 more times a game, he will probably bust
at least one more big one, and 1 or 2 where he gets 10+ yards. that is demoralizing for a
defense. plus, it will keep their offense off the field longer, probably equating to less points.

i’m glad adrian’s father spoke up in the media this week. it is pretty revealing that adrian
hasn’t come out and said anything otherwise or tried to defend the coaches after that public
insult by the elder mr. peterson. i am really wavering on my confidence in frazier and musgrave
at the moment. i think all the negative talk about mcnabb is too easy for fans to do.

granted, he is not inspiring, doesn’t play with heart, lacks leadership… he still is a good qb who
should be able to manage the game and run a conservative, clever power run / short pass offense
like the one that musgrave alluded to in the off season. where is that lauded offense?
oh yeah, it’s hiding behind that super intimidating o-line. <<< sarcasm.
(cat chasing tail here).

warcraft, you are my guitar hero !!!

by danny lloyd on Sep 28, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions

Nice write up Mark

Also its not widely discussed here but Ive seen it on ESPN last year. AP’s talent when used to his best advantage is when he runs horizonal rather than up th middle this is how the sooners used him and I belive if you do a looksie you will find this is when he gains most.

@}-----You've been Touched-----{@

by Velvetouch on Sep 28, 2011 11:51 AM CDT reply actions

Thanks but I am only trying to figure out what is wrong

And I keep coming back to AP not gaining in yards in the second half. Now it could be that when they need to convert third downs and do not, that kills drives and takes away more carries for AP and opportunities for the line to run block. I think that this is part of it too.

McNabb MUST complete some third down passes to extend drives no matter what. He has to play better than his career average of 59% for this team to succeed.

But still, 41% of his carries he is gaining two yards or less. That is unacceptable when you have a back like AP.

Improving the offensive line MUST be priority number one this next off season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by MarkSP18 on Sep 28, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Hey didn't you say that last year?

but even you get carried away by the sweet scent of the draft, all of a sudden it’s LB’s, CB’s, WR oh my! :)

I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass

by Grime on Sep 28, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions

I have been wanting some top linemen draft picks for awhile now

Usually I start off with a lineman (like last year with Nate Solder) and then get beaten down by the masses until I change my tune. :)

But the draft results since 2006 show the total neglect of the line. They have not been adding any youngsters to groom for when the veterans eventually start to fade.

Yeah they added Sullivan in the 6th round and then finally Loadholt in the second but in 6 years they have only added one high draft pick. Of course they signed Hutchinson in 2006 which was MAJOR so I have to give them credit for that.

But you want to draft some younger players to replace the older players and IMO it is better to do it a year early rather than a year late.

But now they have holes all over so I do not know what they will do.

by MarkSP18 on Sep 28, 2011 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions

Drafting lineman every year

As I recall that’s something Belichick is known for. Then they always have lineman to groom.

by Simply_Greatness on Sep 29, 2011 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions

Of course he usually has about 13 picks to work with every year.

We usually have half of that if we haven’t traded a couple away (to them).

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy!!!

by bf4mvp on Sep 29, 2011 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions

Great article.

I enjoyed reading this. Peterson is a blessing and a curse. He’s so gifted that one can’t help but love seeing him on the field. At the same time, he does things that are counter productive. He doesn’t wait for blockers. He misses holes. He gets the ball and moves so quickly to the line of scrimmage that he often has to slow/stop himself at the line in order to go where the hole is developing. That said, he makes yards where their aren’t any either.

As someone else wrote here, and as I commented last week, I think Gerhart gives more consistency which moves the chains and sustains drives. That might be why the coaches gave him the ball on 4 and 1 last week. Too bad Charlie Johnson and Kyle Rudolph missed their blocks at that play. Gerhart didn’t stand a chance.

by kcskol on Sep 28, 2011 8:19 PM CDT reply actions

3 things would help Vikings offense

McNabb needs to get a quicker release and tighter target area on Recievers,O-line needs get Serious and blow some holes and do a little blocking,2 back sets A.D. and Gerhart set up screens to either one or pound that rock. 2 back sets going open up those dink and dunks,cause you gotta play the run and screen and make sure you bring Harvin on a few real and fake end arounds.That will soften that coverage,and here is where McNabb needs get with the program,quick passes and on target.
Oh and the spot taken by Gerhart Bar none other then Double Bs,cause only thing he dont drop is his paycheck,I believe those 2 A.D. and Gerhart would be a dangerous duo,one you cant ignore.

by speedlod on Sep 28, 2011 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions

More depressing evidence

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/09/30/signature-stats-snapshot-pass-blocking-efficiency/

4 out of the 5 starters are ranked in the bottom 10 of their positions.

This alone should tell people all they need to know.

How can we blame any other offensive player (even Berrian which is hard to do) for their performance thus far.

This line is beyond awful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by MarkSP18 on Sep 30, 2011 11:36 AM CDT reply actions

That is absolutely ridiculous!

Meanwhile, Birk is at the very top of his game…..good job mngmnt!
I’ve said this before. Other than Hutchinson, everybody on the Oline would be lucky to start for any other team in the NFL…..those stats only prove that.

by chaosg on Sep 30, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions

On the bright side though

We do have a QB that does have all the things you want besides a great arm (his arm is adequate though) and a top notch TE. We have the best RB in the NFL and a pretty good backup too. We have a really good slot WR who could be great if the Vikings figured out how to use him like Wes Welker.

They did draft some young linemen who could pan out or at the very least be very decent backups throughout their careers.

Pieces are in place for a pretty good offense.

They need one WR who is dynamic and obviously help on the line. I expect they will take two offensive linemen next year and a WR probably in the first 4 rounds. It all depends on free agency.

by MarkSP18 on Sep 30, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions