Perception vs. Reality in the Vikings Stadium Debate
by Skol Girl on Sep 7, 2011 11:19 AM CDT
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PrintThe Minnesota Vikings' stadium situation is at a critical point. The Vikings' lease at the Metrodome expires after the 2011 season and the team's hopes for building at Ramsey County's TCAAP property in Arden Hills hinge on Governor Mark Dayton calling a special session of the Legislature this fall. Governor Dayton has charged the Met Council and the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission to review the proposed stadium site in Arden Hills to assess the site's environmental and economic feasibility. This review is supposed to uncover any surprises with the site and examine exactly what permits would be necessary so stadium construction can go forward. Personally, I have my doubts about the intentions of both the Met Council and the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission, neither of whom have a vested interest in paving the way for a non-Minneapolis stadium site, but the Vikings say that they see the review as a positive step toward helping the stadium project become a reality so I'm trying to stay positive.
What is more concerning is that Minnesota Senate Majority Leader Amy Koch and House Speaker Kurt Zellers want to the proposed .5% county-wide sales tax increase (source of Ramsey County's $350 million contribution to a new stadium in Arden Hills) before voters as a referendum. On the face of it, giving Ramsey County voters a voice in a .5% sales tax increase seems like responsible government. In reality, it puts the potential loss of the Vikings on voters instead of on state politicians who were involved in a budget showdown with Governor Dayton because they didn't want to raise taxes to balance the state budget. Zellers and Koch are covering their butts because 2012 is an election year and they don't want to be accused of raising taxes to help wealthy NFL owners build stadium.
According to reports in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, opinion polls show "widespread opposition to using taxpayer money on a new stadium." If this report is true (and I'm always suspicious when polls don't state their sample size and statistical margin of error), then it's possible that making the .5% Ramsey County sales tax increase subject to a county-wide voter referendum could not only kill the team's hopes for an Arden Hills, but could also end Minnesota's 50 years of having an NFL franchise.
If the sales tax increase goes to a voter referendum, which is apparently unlikely to pass, there's no incentive for the Wilf family to retain ownership of the team. After all, why would any self-respecting businessman keep a business that can't grow? And, if the Wilfs do sell, no new owner will keep the Vikings in Minnesota with a hostile legislature that won't help the team get a new stadium.
Have you ever been at a really awkward social gathering? No one ever wants to be the last one to leave the sad, needy host, but nobody wants to be there either. Well, that's the situation the Vikings find themselves in with the Metrodome. I can't remember a time when anyone was ever fond of the Metrodome, it's the stadium equivalent of an awkward social gathering. Unfortunately for the Vikings, they are the last team to call the place home and the facility won't generate the funds for its upkeep without them.
Stadium myths exposed after the jump.
The Metrodome was built as a multi-use sports facility and the teams who played there dealt with it as best they could-kvetching the whole time. Baseball was supposed to be played under the summer sky to the sound of birds chirping and children laughing. It was simply a cryin' shame to have the Gophers football team play off campus like sports refugees. And OMG, football was a game best appreciated with the smell of autumn leaves in the air and hazy sunshine glinting off natural turf.
I don't debate those points and, having recently seen the Metrodome under the improved lighting that goes with its new roof, it's difficult to come up with redeeming qualities for the Metrodome other than that it's currently inflated. What I do take issue with is that the University of Minnesota and the Pohlad family who own the Minnesota Twins are not considered chiseling rats for wanting new facilities, but the Wilfs and the Vikings, last remaining residents of the Metrodome, are ungrateful jerks because they want a better facility too. Yeah, that's fair.
If I had to blame this skewed perception on any one thing, I would have to call it a blatant failure, if not intentional screwing, of the Vikings by the local media. In a prissy, possibly even sophomoric, attempt to not be the bought dogs of a business interest, Twin Cities media outlets have gone to the opposite extreme to paint the Vikings' stadium quest as some kind of puppy-raping corporate greed that takes advantage of the wholesome Minnesota taxpayers and puppies everywhere. Please, think of the puppies.
While it isn't the media's job to cheerlead a business's efforts, one would hope it also wasn't their goal to shamelessly, and carelessly, topedo a business that employs 115 (not including players and coaches) tax-paying Minnesota residents.
This stadium-related informational imbalance annoys me. It creates a ridiculous perception of the team and encourages an anti-stadium attitude that is based on little more than economic bigotry. In thinking about the stadium issue it reminded me of an ad campaign by Rolling Stone magazine. Feeling that the flawed perception of the magazine was hurting its ability to attract ad revenue, in 1985 Rolling Stone created an ad campaign challenging those mistaken perceptions with the reality. Guess what I'm going to do...
Perception: Minnesota shouldn't provide a new stadium for around 60 millionaire players and coaches and their billionaire owners.
Reality: The Minnesota Vikings employ 115 people other than the players and coaches. Including players and coaches, that number is closer to 200 employees, all living in Minnesota and paying property taxes, sales taxes, vehicle registration fees, transportation taxes, income taxes, etc. to the state of Minnesota. On a game day at the Metrodome, the Vikings organization supports 2,800 full- and part-time jobs. While the players and coaches are wealthy, there are numerous people who aren't wealthy who work either for or with the Vikings franchise. It is remarkably callous of the local media to play a part in screwing those folks out of a job.
Incidentally, the Vikings treat their employees well. During the recent NFL lockout the Vikings did not lay-off their staff or reduce staff hours even though other NFL teams did. I think that's surprisingly generous and fair considering it's hard for an NFL team to generate revenue when the team's players are locked out.
Perception: The Metrodome is still a viable facility that the Vikings could continue to use for years to come, especially now that it has a new roof and new turf.
Reality: While it's true that the new roof is probably going to be good for several years to come, the Metrodome is an outmoded facility, a total relic when compared to modern stadium construction. Oh, who am I kidding-it's a dump. The locker rooms are dismal and cramped, making it difficult for media to talk to players after the games. There aren't many luxury boxes, which limits the team's ability to bring in revenue-something that other NFL owners are quick to point out. Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones has been vocal in his irritation in his team's profits being used to subsidize less profitable franchises like the Vikings.
The fan experience at the Metrodome isn't great either. There's no room for tailgating near the Dome. Although the Dome was built to have thousands of people sit and cheer during a game, it isn't built for any kind of fan convenience during halftime or after the game. During halftime a fan can either use the bathroom (trough urinals boys!) or buy a snack, but if you try to do both of those things you'll likely miss the third quarter. And, more important than fan convenience, in a post-9/11 America, there's a heightened attention to public safety at stadiums, convention centers, and other large facilities considered prime targets for a terror attack. As anyone who has ever inched along the narrow concourses after a game at the Metrodome knows, evacuating that building quickly and safely in the event of an emergency would be almost impossible.
Perception: For the state of Minnesota to take money from schools and roads, during a recession no less, to pay for a stadium is absolutely irresponsible.
Reality: I agree, it would be absolutely irresponsible if state legislators took money from Minnesota's general fund to pay for a Vikings stadium at the expense of children's educations and safe roads. However, the state's $300 million contribution to a new Vikings stadium would not come from the general fund. In fact, the state's $300 million contribution would come from tax revenue from stadium suites, taxes on the sale of pro sports memorabilia, and Vikings lottery taxes.
And, the state wants to use funds from its $300 million stadium contribution to fix the roads near the proposed site in Arden Hills (estimated $130 million cost). This creative financing approach to road maintenance looks hinky because, according to Ramsey County Commissioner Tony Bennett, funds were promised to fix those roads ten years ago. Using money out of the state's proposed stadium contribution to fix roads that already had money promised for them out of the state's transportation fund seems decidedly shady.
Perception: It is ridiculous to pay nearly a $1 billion for the Vikings to play 10 to 12 games a year in a new football stadium.
Reality: Again, it would be absolutely ridiculous to spend $1 billion on a facility used 10 to 12 times a year. But, not to worry, Governor Mark Dayton was adamant that a new football stadium would be a "people's stadium", something that sounds an awful lot like the Metrodome.
Sometimes referred to as Minnesota's rec center, the Dome hosts activities 300 days a year, only 10 to 12 of which are Vikings games. During the other, 290-288 days a year the Dome is home to high school sports, amateur athletics, skating around the upper concourse, annual conventions, celebrations and a host of other things that have nothing to do with the Vikings. Currently the Metrodome costs an average of $10-11 million a year to run. The Vikings pay around $6 million a year for the Dome's upkeep. So, even though the Vikings use the Dome only 4% of the time, they pay more than 50% of the building's operating costs.
A new "people's stadium", would likely host many of the activities that the Metrodome now hosts. Operating costs are projected to run from $14-18 million a year with the Vikings picking up 90% of the operating costs. So, to be clear, if the Vikings get a new stadium built in Ramsey County, the team would still use the facility 10-12 times a year. If the stadium follows Governor Dayton's plan and hosts the same amount of events as the Metrodome, it will be used 290-288 times apart from football. But the Vikings would pay 90% of the new stadium's operating costs rather than 50% of the Dome's operating costs. Under those terms, the state could end up paying less money in annual operating costs for a new stadium than it's currently paying for a 30-year-old wreck.
Perception: Minnesota needs to focus on creating jobs to help ordinary, hardworking people through this recession, rather than building stadiums.
Reality: On Labor Day in Detroit, President Barack Obama said that there are a million unemployed construction workers in the U.S.A. who could be put to work rebuilding the nation's bridges and roads. In moving forward with upgrades to the transportation infrastructure around the proposed Vikings stadium site in Arden Hills, Minnesota legislators have a chance to put people in construction, one of the hardest hit segments of the economy, back to work and might even be eligible for federal grant money to help make it happen.
In addition to the embarrassingly neglected roads around the TCAAP property, construction on the stadium itself is projected to support 13,000 jobs, 7,500 of those jobs in construction and trade work, over the three years of construction and paying $286 million in wages. Hmmm, I wonder how many unionized workers you'd need to build a stadium? Probably a lot, so I have to wonder why organized labor interests in Minnesota aren't getting out their purple and gold pompoms right now. Heck, isn't that one of the goals of labor unions? Union members may want to consider lobbying their union representatives to support a Vikings stadium project.
And. even if some of the work on the stadium is awarded to out of state companies, it will still stimulate the local economy because it will inject money into the local economy that would not have been spent in Minnesota if not for a new stadium. Out of state contractors working in Ramsey County will have to find a place to stay in Minnesota while working on a stadium (hotel tax), they'll have to fill up their vehicles with gasoline (transportation tax), they'll eat in restaurants (sales tax) staffed by Minnesota workers (income tax), and in their off hours they'll take in leisure activities, like a movie or a baseball game or buying a book (more sales tax), all here in Minnesota.
A construction project of this magnitude that also involves transportation infrastructure, would, like the WPA programs during the Great Depression, put a lot of ordinary people in the hard hit construction industry back to work. Stadium construction means jobs-jobs for ordinary people.
This post doesn't address all the mistaken perceptions out there regarding the Vikings' efforts to get a new stadium, but it hits a few and, in the coming days, we'll look at more of the mistaken perceptions swirling around the stadium issue.
In the meantime, if you want the Vikings to stay in Minnesota, get vocal. Talk to your state representatives, talk to your neighbors and friends, talk to your union representatives. Minnesota Momentum and Save the Vikes are both good places to go for information about how you can get involved in the fight to keep the Vikings in Minnesota. The time for Minnesota nice is long gone.
And if you are from out of state and visit Minnesota for Vikings games, please write to the Minnesota Department of Tourism and tell them that having an NFL team is a tourism draw. Right now people are focusing on the cost of the stadium, rather than the cost of losing the Vikings. Let's change that.
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Best of luck keeping the Vikings in Minnesota.
Unfortunately, I can see this being a tough sell. Your article was outstanding. As a Lions fan I will not be happy if this causes the team to move [most likely to the West Coast I guess].
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
It would really screw up the NFC North if the Vikings moved to California.
And that would be a shame because the division was just getting back to its roots of being a tough, smashmouth division—if you could win there, you could win anywhere. I have been excited to see how the divisional rivalries attract more attention as the teams all up their game. Detroit looks like it is poised to reassert itself. Should be fun to see the connection between Matt Stafford and Calvin Johnson develop.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
easy fix
The Rams would move into the NFC North and the Vikes would move to the NFC West, which by the way, they would dominate. So there’d be no problem there. But the Rams should not be happy about this, because in the short term, the NFC north is a much tougher division. This is the best article about the stadium issue that i have seen yet. they should hire this guy to do PR.
Thanks JDAWGZ :)
I think the Vikings should hire me too. I bet Vikings employees get dental.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Nice article Skol Girl I hope I'll be reading more of them next year
Just not looking like it… Three teams have passed you’d think they would figure this crap out by now.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
You really would hope that state leaders would see the bigger picture...
Rather than the few cranked people who call and tell them a stadium would be noisy. Unfortunately, they seem to be looking at short-term gains rather than long-term growth in Minnesota. Considering the popularity of the idea of taxing the rich when it comes to balancing the state’s budget, you’d think they would do more to keep rich people who pay the 8% state income tax in the state. And, this would be a good opportunity for lawmakers to counter the belief that Minnesota is hostile toward business.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Awesome writing
I have emailed all my reps (yet again) hopefully one of them will choose to lead us into the next 30 years of the Vikings having a home in MN.
Vikings Valhalla .com
You might also want to mail actual letters to your representatives too.
An email can be written up quickly, sent quickly, and deleted quickly. A handwritten letter takes time and proves it isn’t the product of a random letter generator or a form. It is also a tangible thing that your representative’s office will have to handle and deal with.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
one point also.
the sins of the father here ….. when we built the dome it was the cheapest of 3 proposals .. you go cheap u have to replace sooner, doesnt matter what it is . so if we had gone grande in the first go around we wouldnt be talking about new stadium we would be talking about upgrades costing much much less . the dome has paid for itself 10 fold time to retire her. let a new area of state prosper a little off the vikings they are minnesota vikings not the minneapolis vikings.
by skol viking on Sep 7, 2011 12:34 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Great point.
You are so right about how when you go cheap you end up having to replace things sooner. One would hope that massive projects like a stadium are built with an eye toward the future, but too often they seem to be built with an eye toward the next election cycle.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Agreed
On both the article and your additional point. The Arden Hills site looks like a football utopia too. I really hope they get this done. It would be spectacular to go to a game and be able to tailgate and really enjoy the whole NFL experience. I go to very few Vikings games currently simply due to the toilet that is the Dome. I actually liked it better for baseball then I do for football and that is saying something. Even then I only think I liked it ok because the white roof was a huge advantage for baseball and memories of Kirby in center field. Having been to other stadiums around the league, it really is a horrible venue. It was always horrible…sure, it was nice to have a roof and not be sitting out in the -20, but you could always tell it was a cheap ass facility. If we got a new stadium and were allowed to host a Superbowl (way not even an option right now for sure) the revenue just from that alone would pay the taxpayer portion. Eventually a new stadium will be built here for an NFL team and every year they talk about this crap the cost goes up, so get it done already!!!! (I cant put in enough exclamation points there)
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 7, 2011 1:21 PM CDT reply actions
You bring up a good point.
People might be apathetic right now to the potential loss of the Vikings, but in 2012 if the Vikings aren’t in Minnesota there will be significant fallout. Because the market in the Twin Cities has proven it can support an NFL franchise, Minnesota will automatically become the next city people talk about as a potential location for a disgruntled NFL team to relocate to. Of course, no NFL team will relocate to Minnesota to play in the Metrodome so a new facility will have to be built. Do you know how much the cost of stadium construction will go up if it is delayed even a year? The current project cost is estimated to go up $54 million each year it is delayed. And, I would be willing to guess that no team considering relocating to Minnesota would be willing to pay as much of the construction costs as the Vikings currently are. The Vikings originally planned to pay $407 million of the cost of construction, plus any overages. The St. Paul Pioneer Press printed that it is likely that Zygi Wilf will increase that amount to $420 million.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
If Minnesota lets the Vikings move
I hope they never get another NFL franchise again.
by JRockItsAllGood on Sep 7, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Call it bitter or whatever you want
but I do not want to cheer for any other NFL team not named the Minnesota Vikings.
by JRockItsAllGood on Sep 7, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
That would be a tough one for me too.
On the one hand, I love football, but on the other, the idea of Minnesota losing the Vikings makes me sick to my stomach.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
I'm with you on that one Skol Girl.
If we lose the Vikes I will be totally bummed out. I have rooted for them my whole life & have experienced a lot of high’s & lows. As much as I love football, getting behind another team just won’t be the same. I’d rather not win a championship for another 50 years than to have them move.
I'm not sure I would be responsible for my actions if I was deprived of football for too long.
As it was, I started watching Necessary Roughness this off-season just because I missed football.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Ha watched Replacements on Tuesday
Still the best football movie ever!
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
I really liked that movie too :)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
There needs to be a Plan C
The city want the Dome redeveloped, but Wilf wants Arden Hills.
There is always massive challenges of building on ground considered toxic and environmentally damaged and costs could get totally out of hand.
If Ford closes the Twin City Assembly Plant, then there becomes another possible site, in need of redevelopment, with sufficient space for stadium and parking yet with established infrastructure.
It could be an acceptable alternative
The thing is
The Ford location is prime realestate, too valuable to tie up with a stadium. The “toxic environment” at the Arden Hills site is actually not suitable for most things, but it is perfect for a stadium. A stadium and parking is the perfect type of construction for that type of site, any other construction would require additional abatement.
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 7, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
The construction aspect that isn't mentioned often is...
That there are environmental concerns associated on any building site that has had previous construction present. Target Field had environmental issues when it was built too. Granted, when you are building on a site where munitions were made, you’ll have much more of that.
The Metrodome is just across from Hennepin County Medical Center. If there’s one thing you can count on with hospitals, it is that they always need new construction. As one of the two Level 1 trauma centers in the tri-state area (the other is at Regions Hospital), HCMC probably needs a new emergency room. It isn’t a stretch to believe that a large portion of the current Metrodome site could be used to enlarge the HCMC medical campus.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
A community site
Looking at suggestions people are making, there is talk of appartments, conference centres, parkland at the site.
I don’t see why a central community stadium would be considered a negative especially if the amount of usage is similar to the Metrodome
At Arden Hills, they are actually talking of 2,400 houses and 3million square ft of commercial usage and it is quite possible the stadium proposal will fall down there, if these additional earners aren’t present
do you know how much it will cost if there is no owner trying to help subsidize it?
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Not sure off the top of my head.
Wouldn’t it just cost the same amount to build, but the State and County would have to pay more of the total cost? Right now it breaks down to the Vikings paying $407 million (maybe more), Ramsey County paying $350 million, and the state paying $300 million. That’s a total of $1.057 billion.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
it was sort of a rhetorical question.
Along the lines of it maybe cheaper to keep what you have instead of throwing it away and realizing to late what you let slip through your fingers…
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Gotcha.
And, the $10-11 million it takes to keep up the Metrodome every year would have to be covered entirely by the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission (they’re the ones who actually own the Dome), so, basically by the state of Minnesota.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
wasn't even thinking about that.
TAKE THAT YOU ELECTED OFFICIALS YOU!
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Exactly.
It would increase the State’s portion of the Metrodome’s operating costs and likely leave the state in the hole because, without the Vikings, the other activities at the Dome won’t cover the building’s operating costs for the year.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
in retail
statistics tell us it costs 5 times as much to attract a new customer then it does to maintain an existing one. i would not be surprised if the cost to attract a new nfl team to MN would not also be 5 times greater then the cost to keep the Vikings here.
better and cheaper to keep the customer we have, then try and lure a new one.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Sep 9, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
I've been thinking of that too.
Apparently I did pay attention during some of my business classes :D
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Not sure, but it would be interesting to know.
And, unless I’ve missed it, that increased contribution is not official yet. That whisper showed up in Charley Walters’ “Shooter” segment in the Pioneer Press.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Good G-d...
A swing and a…. HOME RUN.
Jeeze, I hope this article gets quoted in other places too. Fine, freakin’ fine, work there Skol Girl.
New season and a practically new team. Let's go Vikings! Skol! Daily Norseman
Thanks Kyle :)
It would be my luck that the part of it quoted would probably be this one.
“Twin Cities media outlets have gone to the opposite extreme to paint the Vikings’ stadium quest as some kind of puppy-raping corporate greed that takes advantage of the wholesome Minnesota taxpayers and puppies everywhere. Please, think of the puppies.”I probably shouldn’t be allowed near a computer when I’m cranky.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
No
that is one of my favorite lines. That is exactly when you are at your best!
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 7, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I hear...
that they beat puppies to death with baby seals that were killed with a kitty-kannon.
At least, that’s what I heard anyways.
New season and a practically new team. Let's go Vikings! Skol! Daily Norseman
Did you hear it from a friend who...
Heard it from a friend who heard it from another that you’d been messing around? Sorry, I couldn’t resist. It just isn’t very often I get such a great set-up for quoting REO Speedwagon :D
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
#1 Problem is very clear
Incompetent politicians.
Look at who we are led by. The state of MN had to shut down because we have politicians who are extremists that have zero ability to work with others, play fair, and come to compromises. Before the shutdown Dayton gave a compromise midpoint and it took weeks for everyone to basically settle there anyways, after we incurred a lot of losses.
Our current politicians are incapable of effective leadership and planning. They will push this off until 2012, hoping and praying that the team doesn’t leave before they lose their positions to more competent leaders.
Hell, they want to put this thing to a referendum! Seriously. They want to take a complex problem that they are democratically hired to solve for us and reduce it to a couple sentences and get people to vote on it. Not on whether we should keep the Vikings, but on whether or not they want higher sales taxes put towards a specific thing to help a minority of fans.
I have a referendum for you. Put the thing out there and ask “I want the Vikings out. I want the Vikings in” circle one. And if we get at least 20% of Minnesotans then we do what we need to do to keep them.
Almost every way we spend money is for a minority. That’s why we don’t vote on every single issue because the majority would always win and we wouldn’t have anything. These issues are too complex to just write questions on paper and have people pick.
For example, people who have school age kids are a minority. Put a referendum out to see if St Paul wants a 0.5% tax increase to put towards building schools. Fat chance of it passing. How about an art center? How about more welfare? There is NOTHING that people will vote to pay more taxes on, other than less taxes!
It is obvious that the Vikings are very important to the state of Minnesota. They define 16 Sundays a year for many of us. They get us together and give us stuff to talk about.
As a Minnesotan, i want our state to be enjoyable to live in. I want its cultural identity to be preserved. I don’t want to be miserable and depressed 16 Sundays a year. The Vikings aren’t important to everyone. Nothing really is. But they are very important to a lot of people.
Lots of passion there!
If I could just beg you to take a moment to pick up a pen and share those sentiments with our elected officials, that would be swell. They need to hear things like this because right now the whole argument is being controlled by pithy media snippets and cranks who show up at the community meetings at the Ramsey County public works building. We need to remind the government that, while there are people who don’t want a new Vikings stadium, they don’t speak for all of us.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Self-imposed Tax Hikes Do Happen
For example, people who have school age kids are a minority. Put a referendum out to see if St Paul wants a 0.5% tax increase to put towards building schools. Fat chance of it passing. How about an art center? How about more welfare? There is NOTHING that people will vote to pay more taxes on, other than less taxes!
Minneapolis did pass a school funding referendum in 2008. As a matter of fact, voters approved a doubling of an expiring referendum from 2000. And it wasn’t even close. 70% For versus 30% Against.
Very fine writing
I have decided this is the last stadium article I will read. Living in TN there is not a damn thing I can do to help the situation and it just depresses me to no end. I will cheer hard for the Vikings this year and pray that success on the field will change some peoples mind.
by SouthernNorseman on Sep 7, 2011 2:18 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Don't despair my dear SouthernNorseman!
I hope you keep reading my stadium stuff, but if not, I understand. Believe me, after researching stadium articles I get pretty depressed too. Actually, it’s closer to pissed off than depressed. However, I refuse to believe this fight is over until I actually see the Vikings playing in another state. And, as long as the fight isn’t over, I’m going to keep shouting from my tiny internet pulpit—even if I am preaching to the choir.
At the moment, DN is trying to organize a letter-writing campaign to show our support for a new Vikings stadium. Letter-writing campaigns seem like something from another era and I think that is precisely why it would get attention from elected officials. Out of state fans can join in the efforts too by writing to Zellers and Koch as well as the Minnesota Department of Tourism.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Another thing I would like to point out
is the passion Skol Girl puts into both her posts AND the fact she takes the time to respond to most of the comments. We notice and appreciate the effort SG.
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 7, 2011 2:27 PM CDT reply actions
Passion or vitriol? ;-)
Tough call. But thanks, I really appreciate it. The Daily Norseman wouldn’t be nearly as much fun without all the interaction we have here.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Seriously
I was up at the cabin for the past week and I found myself sitting on the lake and while the fish weren’t biting, I thought, man I wish I could check what people are saying on DN. It has to be the best fan site out there hands down. You are right, the contributors are great, but the rest of us interacting make it everything it is. Now, if we could just get some people out to talk about things in public instead of just griping online while sitting in your basement, we could get some stuff done!
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 7, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, if we get a letter-writing campaign started...
That might help bring more attention to the issue and counter the impression that there isn’t support for the Vikings getting a new stadium. A full inbox in your email is annoying, but a mailbox crammed full of letters from Vikings fans is hard to ignore. It is retro and it takes more time, but a handwritten letter can still pack a punch.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
That's not nice
to say to SG…oh wait, you probably meant me….yeah, I might hangs head
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 7, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I hope so too.
I think that’s why we have to be vocal cranks on every form of media we can use. Take to Facebook and Twitter, email representatives, and send them handwritten letters too. It’s harder to ignore Vikings stadium supporters when we’re making our opinions known with every tool at our disposal.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
I think
we need SG to run for office
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 7, 2011 2:53 PM CDT reply actions
Suuurrrreee...
Because my caustic wit couldn’t possibly come back to haunt me during an election ;-)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Outstanding stuff as usual SG
Much like the omnipotent computer in I, Robot, your logic is undeniable.
Proud contributor to Daily Norseman and SB Nation Minnesota. Tweeting here.
by Eric J. Thompson on Sep 7, 2011 3:23 PM CDT reply actions
Thanks Eric :)
And nice blending of sci-fi references with sports! You know how I love that. I’m looking for new and creative ways to work in more Douglas Adams quotes :D
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
+1
for more Douglas Adams quotes!
“Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. – Douglas Adams "
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Sep 8, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Nice!
I could see using that quote to open a post about Minnesota’s record losing pro teams.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
yep
that is EXACTLY the thought process when I posted it.
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Sep 8, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
This goes on the list
as one of the finest DN articles ever. Actually over the last several days there have been several that have written articles that have garnered some excellent discussion. Obama has been speaking here and there about the importance of getting the construction industry back up and running. You said something about the possibility of federal funds to help with cost of a stadium. Where do we get the grant application and when can you start writing the proposal? This is a semi-serious question.
by abba7 on Sep 7, 2011 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks Abba :)
Because in his speech President Obama spoke of getting Congress on board with stimulating construction on America’s transportation infrastructure, it sounds like he wants Congress to free up money for road construction. I can’t imagine what the point of dealing with Congress is if it doesn’t involve money for something like a transportation bill. However, Obama didn’t explicitly spell it out. It may be something that he elaborates on Thursday night when he addresses the nation. When the initial stimulus packages were rolled out a couple years ago, there was money allocated for road construction so it wouldn’t be surprising if they did that again.
Here’s the section of President Obama’s Labor Day speech I’m referring to.
We’ve got roads and bridges across this country that need rebuilding. We’ve got private companies with the equipment and the manpower to do the building. We’ve got more than 1 million unemployed construction workers ready to get dirty right now. There is work to be done and there are workers ready to do it. Labor is on board. Business is on board. We just need Congress to get on board. Let’s put America back to work.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
I know it's been said before on here
But I find it coincidental that the Strib wants the stadium to stay at the Dome site so bad and they happen to be right across the street, which makes their land very valuable if they do settle on the dome site and buy up surrounding lots to make room for parking.
Great article SG. Maybe you should buy up some space in the Pioneer Press or something and put it out there too ;)
Thanks Amrius :)
Oh that I had the capitol to invest in real estate right now, but alas, no. It is easy to think that there’s a conspiracy afoot with the Star-Tribune, but I’m not sure that, as a whole, they are organized enough to mastermind a conspiracy.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
The sad thing is...
…that our elected poli-chickens are pulling the same stunts that they used when the north stars wanted a new place to play. Only this time, if the vikings leave, we will not get a new team…ever.
There are a whole bunch of Vikings fans out there...
Who won’t give up without a fight.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Do you not remember...
…. the chants of “Norm Sucks”? My how times change. If this site is any indication, there won’t be chants of “Wilf Sucks” should he choose to move the team. For those who want a quick refresher on Norm Green and the North Stars:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1138154/1/index.htm
I think...
and mind you, this is from someone with NO background regarding the North Stars… the feeling around here, at least on I certainly feel, is that Wilf has done all he can do considering the realistic situation. He’s been as patient as possible, he’s constantly increased his offer on how much he’ll contribute… but his back has been put into a corner now by the politicians and media. Quite frankly, I wonder how many owners out there would have shown HALF the patience and willingness to work with Minnesota that Wilf has shown. How long do you think Jerry Jones would put up with this? Al Davis? DAN SNYDER?!
It’s not a Wilf problem, and as I have said elsewhere, it’s also not an LA problem. It is, unfortunately, a MINNESOTA problem right now.
New season and a practically new team. Let's go Vikings! Skol! Daily Norseman
That seems like a fair assessment.
The Vikings organization has done everything that Minnesota has asked to move this proposal along and he is consistently met with new hurdles. If Zygi Wilf and Lester Bagley were to just look at Governor Dayton, Kurt Zellers, and Amy Koch and say, “Fuck it” I wouldn’t blame them. The patience the Vikings have shown in the face of this situation has been impressive.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Why not a bond?
Since the Ramsey County portion is only $350m, why not approve a bond and borrow the money? Some counties spend that much on school construction by issuing bonds.
Can’t believe they will screw this up over 350 million. Thousands of jobs at stake. Not just the organization and vendors but sports sales (jerseys), restraunts that do a big business on game days…
Message to politicians should be “save jobs, fund stadium.”
by Vikefandc on Sep 7, 2011 6:00 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
There was talk of a Ramsey County bond measure for stadium stuff...
But I can’t remember what happened with it. Maybe another DN person knows.
And you’re right, I think people mistakenly think that only the players and coaches will be affected if there isn’t a stadium bill but there are so many more people whose livelihood is directly impacted by sports entertainment. They would be screwed.
While the Vikings have tried to highlight the jobs that would be added to the area if a new stadium is built, the message seems to be getting lost. That annoys me and is one of the reasons I harp on this issue so much. Minnesota has a reputation as an anti-business town, and here are the Vikings who not only want to stay in Minnesota, but want to expand their business in Minnesota and all they get is crap from the government and snide pseudo-reporting from the local media. It’s enough to make ya heave.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
More than just MN.....
I lived in Colorado for many years (born and raised in St. Cloud) and would fly into Minnesota to see my beloved Vikings twice a year. Fly in on Northwest airlines, take a taxi, stay at a hotel and buy goods from local stores. If it was not for the Vikings I would have stayed at home. Plain and simple.
I am not the only one, in fact, far from it.
The Vikings are a state asset. And not getting a stadium built will cost more than anyone seems to see.
I wouldn't blame you for not leaving Colorado if it wasn't for Vikings games...
Colorado is breathtakingly beautiful :)
I was talking with a friend of mine on Monday and he was telling me something pretty similar. Last year for the Vikings/Packers game at the Dome he stayed at The Ivy hotel in Minneapolis with a couple friends and he said that on Sunday the hotel lobby was filled with people wearing jerseys. Now, my friend is from Rochester, Minnesota, but the people he was with were from California. If it wasn’t for the Vikings game there was no way the California people would have made the trip to Minnesota in November.
And that is a good thing to mention from a state tourism stand point—Vikings games bring people to Minnesota during non-peak tourist seasons. People like the idea of enjoying Minnesota lakes in the summer, but it takes a hearty soul to go ice-fishing. So, the fact that the NFL can bring people to Minnesota during late autumn and winter is important.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
I totally agree
I am from Canada, have flown to Vikings games the past two years, I have done the same Taxi, Hotel, many beers, etc, but have also gone to two Wild games and one TWolves game, just because they were on at the same time. I did not have to buy any of those tickets through Stub Hub etc. because they were sold out, I supported 3 Minnesota teams just because I could set up a great sports weekend. I have an NHL team in my city and I am not a huge NBA fan, I have no reason to go to Minneapolis except for the Vikings, There were at least 5 people on my plane with Vikings gear and a ton at the airport when I arrived. Minnesota will lose a ton of tourist dollars if the Vikings leave. I have absolutely no reason to go to Minneapolis if the Vikes are not there
Oh I forgot to mention
Excellent post Skol Girl, and why hasn’t the Viking’s PR machine brought this up sooner?
Thanks Chris464 :)
You certainly are not alone. There are plenty of people from North and South Dakota and Iowa who make the trek to Minneapolis for the sole purpose of enjoying some sports entertainment. I wish I could find the info right now (too much stadium research piling up) but a surprisingly large percentage of the Vikings season ticket holders live outside of Minnesota.
I’ve heard the Vikings organization has been trying to make this point too. It might even be the reason that the plans for the new stadium include RV parking. But the Vikings organization is constrained by having to be nice—I suffer no such constraint ;-) The Vikings also have to deal defensively with all the crap being thrown at them (sometimes literally) at the community meetings in Ramsey County, so I don’t think they have been able to set the tone or agenda the way they would have liked to.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
My Compromise Proposal
As I made clear in earlier threads, I am not a big fan (like a majority of Minnesotans, apparently) of using taxpayer dollars to build a new stadium.
As far as the jobs angle, I have two objections: first, the amount of jobs generated (how many are part-time and/or temporary?) vs. the amount of public money spent, and second, the reality of those projections.
We were all assured that if over $800 billion were spent on the American Recovery Act of 2009, national unemployment would not rise above 8%. That Keynesian prediction, endorsed by Nobel prize winners and Ivy League economists as a scientific certainty, of the benefits of public spending was wrong. I have no faith, quite frankly, spending $200 million or so on a new stadium will produce real benefits of any sort for the vast majority of taxpayers in Minnesota.
On the other hand, I don’t want the Vikings to leave, because, well, that would suck.
I also grudgingly accept the fact that public funding of some form for new stadiums is the norm now.
So, as other people have suggested before, I propose a “sin tax” and/or gaming tax of some sort to pay the public portion of a new stadium. If you don’t like spending taxpayer dollars on a new stadium that will primarily benefit millionaires and billionaires, don’t go to a casino, and/or buy as much beer or tobacco. (I’ll still buy beer and cigars, but no more than I would buy anyway.)
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 7, 2011 8:53 PM CDT reply actions
And you like the majority of Minnesotans are misinformed of where the state's portion is coming from
From the article:
“However, the state’s $300 million contribution to a new Vikings stadium would not come from the general fund. In fact, the state’s $300 million contribution would come from tax revenue from stadium suites, taxes on the sale of pro sports memorabilia, and Vikings lottery taxes.”
Not coming from the general fund is key. That means the money won’t come out of the same fund that the state used for schools, hospitals and whatever other public expenses they have.
I don't believe the article, quite frankly.
I suspect the taxpayers will end up on the hook for this $300 million handout to the Wilfs, should it come to pass. You know, because government programs always turn out just how they were marketed to the voters, and under-budget to boot.
All the revenue supposedly generated by targeted taxes on suites, revenue, etc. is based on projected earnings, and is only a “proposal”. Too much wiggle room and uncertainty there for my taste.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 8, 2011 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions
well it's nice that you don't believe something but bring no facts to bear to uphold your arguments.
Not saying you can’t have your opinion, but if your going to call someone a liar you might want to at least pull out some proof.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Well, in all fairness
I don’t think he was calling anyone a “liar.” A fair reading of his posts would indicate that he does not believe the tax revenue from suites, lottery, and memorabilia sales would be sufficient to pay the $300 million, or whatever the final tab actually turns out to be, and that his basis for that belief is his historical perception that often times government-funded/subsidized construction projects have huge cost overruns that are effectively paid for by the taxpayers from general revenue funds.
But that concern could easily be addressed at the negotiating table, it seems to me. Indeed, he posits a sin tax, which could be agreed to now as a source to fund cost overruns, or, even better, the burden of the cost overruns could be placed on other partticipants, ie the Vikings.
If you want to move people’s positions, you need to be charitable. If you just want to make fun of them or humiliate them, you run the risk of not only hardening their position but also moving the positions of others who are listening further away from yours. That’s what makes Skol Girl’s article so effective: it is direct and to the point, but it’s tone remains largely respectful. Socrates would be pleased.
TiggerSr
I am properly reprimanded
My apologies MidnightRambler if I took your post out of context.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
According to the Vikings' stadium proposal...
The Vikings would be responsible for covering the cost of any construction overages incurred in stadium construction. So, even if there are cost overruns in construction for a new Vikings stadium, the state of Minnesota and Ramsey County would not be on the hook for those cost overruns—the Vikings would.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
The single most important fact
I beleive is the out of state revenue. What fund it comes out of doesn’t matter to me. If one is low another will have to pick up the slack. Here is what NO anti stadium arguements account for. Out of state revenue. The NFL being the biggest draw in the country is not just people of that state supporting their own state. It is thousands of out of state visitors everyweek spending bick bucks in the economy. That is not money that would be spent on alternative forms of entertainment in Minnesota. It would stay in ND,IA,WI,SD, Canada and wherever else our fans and fans of other teams are coming from. A stadium like the Arden Hills proposal also brings in huge amounts of out of state revenue for other events we can’t currently host. Super Bowl being the biggest brought in $500 million which I would imagine was mostly out of state revenue considering how far away Green Bay and Pittsburg is from TX. Also NCAA Final Fours would be mostly out of state dollars. I think the two things no anti stadium person can argue against is first and for most what a huge cultural asset this team is, and second, those out of state dollars WILL NOT stay somewhere in our economy. In fact I would imagine there are a few tax paying citizens who might leave and never spend another dime in MN if we don’t keep the Vikings like myself.
by Karl 'MORPHIA' Nyberg on Sep 7, 2011 11:03 PM CDT reply actions
Well
after reading more comments it seems all you awesome Vikings folk get the big picture everyone I debate with never seems to mention! With that star tribune poll they had, I would like to see the numbers. I know I personally witnessed probably 5000 pro stadium people sign up for Minnesota Momentum’s newsletter, and I wouldn’t hold it past the star tribune to totally have people on the job trying to scew those numbers. I remember the last internet poll on the issue ON the Star Tribiune’s web site was dominated by public support for this stadium. I hope you all do you part and bug your lawmakers since we all feel this strongly, I must admit I am very scared…
by Karl 'MORPHIA' Nyberg on Sep 7, 2011 11:09 PM CDT reply actions
Karl, I think I talked to you at the State Fair!
You did some great work volunteering at the Minnesota Momentum booth. I don’t think I could have done that for four hours at a pop. It is really cool that you and the other volunteers at the booth took time out from having fun at the Fair and eating a variety of food on sticks to show your horns and sign people up. Props :)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Right on target! Outstanding article, SG!
And rec’ed, hopefully this one will stick around for a while, and hit all the right keyword searches. Your points are clearly laid out and you made a great case!
There are so many highly questionable assertions that are/have been made about the stadium issue in the past few years that after a while, I think some people begin to accept them as gospel truth. And I won’t go into biased media tactics, but that doesn’t help matters either. Tackling these assumptions one at time, so clearly that even a child can grasp it, is real service to the debate. Thanks!
Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!
Thanks DCPurple--glad you liked the article :)
It is embarrassing for me to tell you this, but I had to restart this article a couple times as I got more information. If I had put all the information I’ve gathered into this article it would have begun to look like War and Peace, so I’m going to write Part 2 sometime in the near future to address more of the perceptions swirling around. Probably next week.
I know it isn’t as much fun to talk about the stadium gridlock as it is to talk about roster moves and depth charts, but I’m beginning to worry that if fans don’t get vocal we might not have a team to cheer for anymore. I’m going to have to purge this from my system (temporarily) and write something about the Vikings/Packers rivalry.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
I'm for a new stadium and all...
But I don’t understand all the dome hate. The metrodome is a place where I have seen some amazing games with some of my greatest friends. Think about the decibel level, how many false starts have been caused by the fans in this venue? Hell if I remember right I think the NFL even did some investigations to make sure they weren’t playing crowd noises or amplifying the crowd or something of that sort.
Specifically I recall actually meeting Chris Carter on the field. I was only a kid at the time (back in my MN days 91-98) The Vikes had taken a beating and were running into the tunnel for half time. I was standing on the side waving at them but not one even looked at me, however Carter walked right over and shook my hand. Right on the field of the Metrodome. I remember looking straight up at the ceiling of the dome and thinking how that had to be one of the best moments of my life.
A new stadium would be awesome don’t get me wrong, I just find it hard to believe that so many people dislike the dome, that’s a job best served by our opponents (Back when Favre was a packer he said the dome was his least favorite place to play!)
All and all there will be a day when they tear down the Metrodome, and for me at least it will be one last chance to relive all those great moments of Vikings history
It's not that people hate the Dome
Speaking personally, the day they eventually tear it down, i’ll be there, as close as they’ll let me be and i’m sure many others will be too. The dome has been an icon, not only in Minnesota sports but as a part of the downtown skyline. It dominates the entire surrounding area. You see it and know immediately you’re in the heart of Vikings country.
But lets face facts. It opened in April of 1982 and is one of the oldest stadiums in the NFL without any sort of major renovations on the grounds or interior. Having just been there for week 3 of pre-season a few weeks ago, it’s pretty much falling apart. It’s time to put the old girl out to pasture and look to the future.
by Amrius on Sep 8, 2011 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well spoken, and I suppose I haven’t been to the stadium since they walloped the Giants in 09 but it was great then (landslide victory helped on that one)
As for when they tear it down… My grandpa has old met stadium chairs from when they tore that place down. I would be there watching it come down but I’ll probably be trying to make off with some Metrodome chairs of my own…
Really?
I share the fond memories of good times at the dome like anyone else, but it has always been a crappy stadium. You can completely sum it up with 2 words which SG highlighted in the article….trough urinals. Enough said.
by A shot at greatness, probable failure on Sep 8, 2011 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions
If that is what really makes a stadium great to you...
I don’t usually spend much of my time at them so it doesn’t bother me that much
Time to take the kiddy gloves off
It’s clear that the myopic politicians will not respond to clearly reasoned requests to back a proposal that’s good for their constituents and their economy in the long run so threats are an alternative. Start publishing a black list of all the names of the politicians who are impeding the project. Perhaps that will serve to remind them that Vikings fans are voters too and if the Vikings are forced to move then there will be dire consequences especially to their careers. Being angry at politicians is an easy thing to foster. Your idea about involving unions is a good one too. They should be able to bring the heat as well.
I really hope that the unions do make some noise about the stadium debate.
It consistently amazes me that the Vikings’ desire to stay in Minnesota and create jobs in Minnesota is treated with such disdain and contempt. I’ve mentioned it before, but Minnesota (rightly or wrongly, I don’t know) has a reputation as a high-tax state that is anti-business. The state’s treatment of the Vikings doesn’t do a lot to change that perception.
With as many union workers who are out of work because construction isn’t being done in this economy, I would think that the unions would be big supporters of a project that would be such a local boost for the industry. I don’t know how many union members read DN, but if they do, I’d encourage them to call their representatives so the unions can start lobbying the state government. Killing a stadium bill kills the jobs that stadium construction would create.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Oustanding !!
An outstanding post SKOL girl !! I’ve already sent my email to my representative, with the hope it doesnt fall on deaf ears… But I have to be honost, I am not holding my breath… :( I will be rooting for my Vikes from southern Illinois, since I am no longer in my home state and cheering proudly with my fellow Army Vikes fans !! Thank goodness for Directv and the NFL Package :) !!
Thanks Teeoff70 :)
It is great that you have emailed your representative! You might want to also write a regular letter to your representative too. A full email inbox might get some attention, but if they have a bunch of letters taking up space in their offices, that is pretty hard to ignore. And, in a day when so few people write letters, it has the appeal of the unexpected. Just imagine the representatives and their staffs sitting there as the letters start rolling in and saying, “How pissed off are these people? Nobody writes letters anymore.”
Glad you and all your fellow Army Vikes fans are reading, take care :)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Yes, the Lakers and North Stars left, but MN still has an NBA and NHL team
Even though I no longer live in MN and don’t pay taxes there anymore, I am in favor of the stadium bill. I would have been if I still lived there too. While I will likely no longer watch the NFL if the “Minnesota Vikings” leave the state over the stadium issue, it needs to be pointed out that, while the Lakers and North Stars both left MN, the market is still there. The NBA and NHL came back. It’s reasonable to assume the same thing would happen with an NFL team, at the end of the day, it is profitable for one to be there. While the stadium issue may ultimately drive the Minnesota Vikings out of the state, and the state could be without an NFL team for years, I would think that, eventually, the state of Minnesota would get another team.
I have to believe SOME team will move to LA. And whoever ends up in LA will probably force not only a musical chairs re-organization of NFL divisions, but could spark a re-location effort too, as the least profitable teams move to find homes in more profitable areas. It sucks for us if it does happen, and we can only hope for the best case scenario (ala the Cleveland Browns), but there is always hope. Even if the current Minnesota Vikings leave town, my money is on another team moving here to replace them. And I bet that Minnesota politicians are thinking the same thing.
SKOL
You're probably right...
Another NFL franchise could eventually end up in Minnesota. It’s just that I don’t like the “eventually” part of that idea. If the Vikings leave Minnesota, then Minnesota would automatically become the next location that could vie for an NFL franchise any time a team gets disgruntled with its current location. But that would take awhile and leave me without a team in the meantime. However, that relates to my entertainment and, while that would be sad for me, there are a lot of local people whose livelihoods are either connected to or reliant on the Vikings and they would be screwed.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
Agreed.
I agree with you 100%. It would suck for fandom, and it would suck for the hundreds of people employed by the Vikings, and thousands of businesses that profit from the Minnesota Vikings. It would be heartbreaking to lose the MN Vikings, and it would be a major disruption for a lot of people.
All I’m saying is, if you look at the bigger picture, in the end, it has worked out ok. And again, I don’t think this is lost on our local politicians. I think this is the kind of leverage they have. They can say to Wilf, the only leverage you have is sell the Vikings and/or move the team, and it isn’t a lot of leverage anyway, because while we’ve lost several professional franchises in the past, we’ve ended up getting replacement franchises and it’s reasonable to assume the same would happen with an NFL Franchise.
SKOL
Oh, absolutely--
In the long run Minnesota would likely get another team. It would take awhile and it would cost a lot more than it does now to build a new stadium for the Vikings. And I’m sure the politicians do realize that. However, they have to get reelected in the short-term ;-)
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
except who was the last
politician to get unelected because they voted for a stadium proposal? after the votes to build the Metrodome? Target Center?, Xcell Center? Target Field? I can’t really name a any.
Also, neither the NBA nor the NHL returned to mn until after new stadiums where constructed at 100% taxpayer expense and years of waiting and watching both LA and Dallas win championships with what should be our teams in the first place.
both the Timberwolves and Wild are expansion teams, but the NFL has as many teams as are needed to make their schedules work. it is highly unlikely to expand again. If LA cant get an expansion team, then non is coming.
counting on being able to replace a team after it moves is a losing proposition on so many levels.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Sep 9, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
The Twolves...
… paid for their own stadium. The city ended up buying the place after the fact, but that’s another story.
Excellent and Brilliant!
An excellent financial distillation of the stadium issue Skol Girl. If economic considerations and logic were the defining factor in the Viking stadium issue, your analysis would be the final argument.
Everyone who is or ever was a Viking fan cannot imagine a world where this storied franchise resides somewhere other than Minnesota. I have not lived in the state for many years but when asked where I come from, without thinking my first response is “Minnesota”.
I hope your analysis is widely distributed; I hope the Viking fans of Minnesota raise their voices in support of an economic engine for the state. Most importantly for me as a non-resident fan, I hope Minnesotan’s everywhere support a new stadium for a state symbol as dear as each of the 10,000 (17,823+) lakes and Paul Bunyun!
Thanks Skol Girl!
Thanks TexasViking :)
Glad you liked the article and it is cool that even far from the land of lakes and mosquitoes that Minnesota is still in your heart. But even if you aren’t in Minnesota anymore you can still make your voice heard. Email and write to the Minnesota Department of Tourism (I linked to their page at the end of the article). I get the feeling that law makers are focusing too narrowly on the issue and aren’t thinking about the broader economic impact of losing the Vikings. Let’s raise the issue in a way they can’t ignore.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
might be a dumb question, so please bear with me...
I’m not a native Minnesotian (sp?), but can’t the Vikings extend the Metrodome lease for a few more years if a deal isn’t done this fall? Or is it only a temporary extension if they get their new stadium- otherwise it would be some ridiculous 10 year lease or something?
I’d rather the boys play in the crappy Metrodome and remain the MINNESOTA Vikings for another 4-5 years than move.
I feel like I’m missing some huge detail here, because this solution sounds way too simple. :/
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Sep 8, 2011 1:28 PM CDT reply actions
The fact is they don't want to
they are currently being subsidized by the NFL, to hear Jerry Jones talk about it he’s personally paying for the Vikings. The Metrodome is just not viable in today’s market for the team, and as their lease is ended they are justified in looking for places that will support an NFL team the way most of the other teams are.
I'm like the Dali Lama of kicking ass
Not a dumb question at all. Actually, a very good question.
The Vikings have been working for a decade and 3 ownership groups to get a new stadium and have gotten to that enough-is-enough point. Minnesota’s government has consistently told the Vikings, “Be patient, we’ll get to you later.”
When the Wilfs became the owners they felt that as newcomers to Minnesota it was important for them to help support the Twins and Gophers as they sought new facilities—showing solidarity with the other Minnesota teams. So, the Vikings waited. Their lease at the Metrodome was getting closer to expiring each year, but each time the Vikings tried to raise the stadium issue they were told the timing wasn’t right, wait some more. It was never the Vikings’ intention to wait until the last year of their Metrodome lease to make a major stadium push—that timing is a product of the state of Minnesota delaying the issue.
As I understand it, the Vikings are refusing to renew their lease at the Metrodome because they feel that if they renew their lease without a stadium deal in place the state government will continue to put off dealing with the issue, thus leaving the Vikings in stadium limbo indefinitely. Therefore, the Vikings set the deadline, they will not renew their lease at the Metrodome past 2011 without a stadium deal.
If the Vikings get a stadium deal done for the Arden Hills location, then they will play at the Metrodome until construction is finished on a new stadium.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
One more reason
The NFL has a history of making new stadiums as the site for the Super Bowl.
2001 Raymond James Stadium opened in 1998
2004 Houston Reliant Stadium opened in 2002
2006 Detroit Ford Field opened in 2002
2008 University of Phoenix Stadium opened in 2006
2011 Cowboys Stadium opened in 2009
Scheduled for 2012 Lucas Oil Field opened in 2008
Scheduled for 2014 MedLife Stadium opened in 2010
So it would almost be a matter of time before a new stadium (with a dome) would host a Super Bowl, and I am pretty sure that that would bring some money to the local economy.
And there is big money associated with hosting a Super Bowl
Last year’s Super Bowl was said to have pumped $500 million into the area around Cowboys Stadium.
Life being what it is, one dreams of revenge.
- Paul Gauguin
The Daily Norseman
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