Minnesota Vikings Stadium: Arden Hills No Longer Viable, Unless It Is, Which It Might Be, But Possibly Isn't
by Christopher Gates on Jan 10, 2012 8:19 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings Stadium
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PrintSo, in today's installment of As The Stadium Turns, when we last left off our heroes had been given word that the site for their dream home was looking more and more like a far-off fantasy.
However, today we've been given a new story from one of the architects of the stadium bill that says that such reports are not quite accurate.
"I don’t know what the source of it is," said Morrie Lanning, R-Moorhead, on Monday. "They haven’t said it to me."
"As far as I’m concerned this is still very much an open question," he said.
He said as far as he knows the team has not been told Arden Hills can’t work as a site.
With about 48 hours left before the deadline for proposals to be submitted to Governor Mark Dayton, it's not surprising that we're starting to see this sort of thing come to light.
Hopefully when the final proposals are submitted, we'll have a better idea of what's "viable" and what isn't.
However, the Vikings still seem to think that Arden Hills is the more viable location, based on the letter they've sent to the mayor of Minneapolis. The letter raises several good points, specifically the following:
-If the Vikings were to play three seasons at TCF Bank Stadium, which is the proposed plan if the Metrodome site is chosen, they would lose nearly $40 million over that time.
-TCF Bank Stadium would need $11 million of improvements in order to bring it up to NFL standards for a three-season stretch (which one would assume would include heating coils under the field so it wouldn't turn into an ice rink two or three times a year)
-In order for the parking situation to meet NFL standards, TCF Bank Stadium would also need $19 million worth of parking improvements.
Add it all up, and that's nearly $70 million the team is out by agreeing to play the next three years at TCF Bank Stadium. Don't get me wrong, I realize that a lot of people don't give a damn because the Minnesota Vikings are an evil corporate entity and everything, but it doesn't seem right that they should be out an extra $70 million. That never seems to get mentioned when Minneapolis points out that the current Metrodome site is the "cheapest option available."
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This really sucks
Nothing gets done in this damn country any more because we’ve got to have 15 committees study every angle of every possible contingency and special interest group and financing options, bonds, clean air/water studies blah blah blah. The politicians on both sides are so pathetic. It took 5 years to build the Hoover dam in the 30’s. Have you seen the Hoover dam? It’s amazing. And we’ve been talking about this stadium for about 15 already – with another 3-4 years to build the stadium if/when it gets approved. I’m pretty sure the great pyramid of Giza was built in less time. I’m sorry for venting, but I’m really starting to feel like this isn’t going to happen.
Building the Hoover Dam...
also cost at least 96 construction workers their lives, plus countless more died from illness and disease due to poor working conditions.
So, while I get your point about government projects taking a long time, I am also thankful that they are sometimes cautious in looking out for the good of the people.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Good point
You’re right – it just seems like we spend more money studying things now than the actual cost of building them – and we still get bridges that fall down. I guess we’ll know more in 2 days when all the proposals are due to Dayton.
You might want to think about that
We’ve not spent $1+ billion thinking about it.
We have underinvested in infrastructure for years, but I don’t think that’s due to thinking about it too much.
Um
The delays are unrelated to worker safety in this case. So not really sure what your point is.
by Cobra312004 on Jan 10, 2012 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
My point is
Brevity isn’t always a good thing when huge construction projects are involved. Torstein used the Hoover Dam as an example of a construction and engineering marvel that was built quickly, in the 1930s. My point was, be careful what you wish for, as that construction project was built quickly and with horrible working conditions that resulted in over 96 worker deaths.
While we all WANTANEWSTADIUMRIGHTNOWOMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!. I’m saying, just chill. Let the political and government process play out, because we have that system to thank for the great working conditions we now enjoy. Sure, the delays are largely political at this point, but have some faith in the system. That’s my point.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Hell
it took Japan 6 DAYS to make this:
Turn into this:
"Believe in the system. For it shall bring light when there is dark, food when there is hunger, and shots when there are passes. This is the divine process." Yeo 4:18
by NorthernStar on Jan 10, 2012 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
Have to say, I only saw the top half at first
and thought “Hell, I could make a better road than THAT in 6 days”, and then saw the bottom half. That’s some pretty darn impressive work.
the funny thing is...
It took them a month on the top road O.o
by Lunchpail on Jan 11, 2012 3:01 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Weird how it broke almost perfectly along the painted lines.
The Japanese have perfected road perforation technology!
ha ha
still passable on a motorcycle!
"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway
wow
Never noticed that… That’s pretty interesting
by Lunchpail on Jan 11, 2012 6:14 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Not really
He paver is about a lane wide, so those are just the seems between the different passes with the paver.
At least we have a deadline for proposals!
Remember several months back when we weren’t even sure if the Stadium would be on the agenda when the legislative session returned in January? Things are looking up IMO.
Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.
Good for the Vikings to point it out
They’ve had far more experience with the matter.
Politicians like to keep the details to themselves but anything that adds 10% in hidden costs would cause them to lose face and be embarrassed.
The Wilfs did the right thing to “make sure” they’re portraying an accurate assessment. The public will be sure to look for the details on how this angle is covered.
Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!
by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 10, 2012 9:07 PM CST reply actions
If you notice, word that the Arden Hills site isn't viable
was brought to you courteous of the STrib, an entity that has been anti-Arden Hills from the start.
by suns_shine on Jan 10, 2012 9:25 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
That's exactly what I was thinking.
I was talking with another person today (nectur) about this and the strib could sell their building for a lot of money if the vikes build on the dome site. What happens if the vikes leave Minneapolis? Oh, right, their building loses tons of value. The strib wants everyone to think AH isn’t viable.
by igjoe on Jan 10, 2012 9:32 PM CST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
I seriously hate the star tribune…effff
by Night_Hawker5000 on Jan 10, 2012 9:48 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
so much for an un-bias new agency
by Lunchpail on Jan 10, 2012 10:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm still confused as to where these Minneapolis proposals are
Like, I know sites have been discussed (Linden ave, Dome and Farmers Market) but nobody has put forth any sort of numerical backing to it. As far as i’m concerned Arden Hills is the only option at this point.
right, it is the only fully vetted proposal.
And the missing piece of detail in the Vikings letter might go something like:
Therefore, we are compelled to reduce our contribution from $425 million dollars to no more than $200 million if a Minneapolis site is chosen by the legislature.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 10, 2012 10:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I wouldn't call the Arden Hills proposal "fully vetted"
Since the state gov’t ruled out the ability for Ramsey County to pay it’s share via sales tax increase (at least not without a referendum that won’t be on the ballet till next Nov, if at all) and RC has yet to come forward with an alternate funding method.
Still, Arden Hills already has the most leg work done. They’ve already had the economic feasibility and the environmental impact study (I think?) done. All of the Minneapolis have exactly jack and shit done as far as preliminary work done.
I’m still pulling for the Racino option to come through the legislature. People don’t want to be taxed for something they don’t use? Fine, let people who want to contribute pay for it.
They have been discussing specialized taxes
That would not require a referendum for the local contribution. Hotels and merchandise and the like. I don’t know if that’s been formally presented yet but they are, at the very least, closer to having all their bases covered than any Minneapolis proposal.
They’ve already had the economic feasibility and the environmental impact study (I think?) done. All of the Minneapolis have exactly jack and shit done as far as preliminary work done.
Correct on both fronts.
Which begs the question, does Dayton ruin his credibility completely and give the Minneapolis people an extension on the deadline if they can’t get their act together in time?
by Cobra312004 on Jan 10, 2012 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
I know they've been talking
But if they have any realistic hope of getting the Arden Hills stadium pushed through, they need to have everything in writing, all their i’s dotted and t’s crossed, notarized, and a pretty little pink bow at the top.
As for Dayton’s deadline, I hope he doesn’t. I’m not ruling anything out as far as politicians are concerned.
Depends what bases your looking at
The biggest issue for AH seems to be getting the votes.
Which is actually the only bases that actually matters.
And now Ted Mondale says the only site...
…that allows for quick completion is the metrodome site.
Jimminy, the Star Tribe must be licking their chops at the prospect of selling their available land for $45 to $50 mil, like they were going to do before the Wilf’s backed away due to the economy.
Hard to believe it will be quicker given all the demolition and land acquisition needed.
I’d still like to know whether Zygi is willing to contribute $425 million if it’s not going to go in Arden Hills.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 11, 2012 6:38 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Land acquisition?
If they are building on the dome footprint, it’s probably quickest. Demo doesn’t take long and the infrastructure is already there.
They should build on the dome footprint though.
3 years
most stadiums take 2 tops. did it take 3 for the twins stadium ?
by skol viking on Jan 11, 2012 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Along those lines
I think you could do something like this, but it would take rather a bit more vision and politicians caring about something other than just the price tag.
Well
Except that any if the Minneapolis sites are still cheaper counting those numbers.
And the second and third point are mo ey that won’t come out of the team’s pockets. The first the team will want credit for as part of their contribution.
I listened to about three minutes of KFAN last might. Soneone from the Vikes was on and said that the farmers market has issues but that they could make either of the other two downtown sites work.
IF they build at the dome site
it seems to make more sense to build on the Strib’s land and continue to use the dome during construction, then when the new stadium is completed, raze the dome and turn that site into parking….
as far as the Arden Hills site, what ever happened to the propsal by the White Earth tribe to fund it using a casino adjacent to the stadium?
Agree 100%
And don’t understand why that’s not getting traction, although its a little more complicated.
Ias for the White Earth proposal, I don’t know but hose never seem to go anywhere.
Nothing is going to get resolved by tomorrow.
Reading the Strib, Shakopee wants to be a stadium option. NO! There is already too many people wanting too many things, if you don’t have a dog in the fight now (no Michael Vick pun intended) don’t say a word!
by christian220896 on Jan 11, 2012 8:46 AM CST reply actions
Wish someone would make up their mind where to fund this thing......
Oh wait, politicians can’t make it up, because they don’t have one!
At this point, and in the post I put up a few days ago, I am still very partial to the Arden Hills site with it being more open, more development and so on. But anymore, it’s almost an I dont care where, just built it in the Twin Cities somewhere and keep the Vikings here.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
Why, as a fan, do you care
About more open and more development?
I can see why fans think the infrastructure will be better designed for easier access (although think some are overly optimistic) and larger, more concentrated surface parking will be good for tailgating.
But I don’t see an enhanced fan experience coming from the fact that there is a lot of open space around.
guess
u never went to any games at the met stadium . instead of playing in a sterile environment like the dome. when we played outside we went to 4 sb when we played inside we lost 3 nfc champ games 2 at home.
by skol viking on Jan 11, 2012 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
That's a different issue
You’re talking about outside versus inside. None of the proposals are for an outdoor stadium.
And none of that has to do with how much open space there is around the stadium.
But no, I never went to any games at met stadium.
I went to a few Met Stadium games
There was more toughness to those teams than you are ever going to see again. Grant didn’t allow the players to wear gloves when it got really cold.
However, from my perspective, all of the downtown plans suck. Too much jammed into too little space. I gots to have me some elbow room, and overall it will help the Twin Cities more economically if we have a stadium area that is a showplace to the world, not some stadium that is shoe-horned in like a square peg in a round hole.
For prestige purposes, I would think we would want to do this right.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 11, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
I agree about doing it right
But I’m not sure that “showplace” means a stadium surrounded by open space.
I also think the downtown is less popular because the Metrodome did it so wrong. They tried to do it cheap, they failed to think about how to integrate with it’s surroundings, and they didn’t have a broader development plan for the area.
It doesn’t have to be that away. Target Field was much better planned and turned out a lot better. Same with Excel.
I think they could do great things for fans and the east side of downtown if they were thinking a little bigger, but that doesn’t seem to be on anyone’s radar.
But I definitely agree with you that the Basilica (or Linden Ave) site seems like it would be shoe-horning something into not enough space.
I would both agree and disagree...
overall it will help the Twin Cities more economically if we have a stadium area that is a showplace to the world, not some stadium that is shoe-horned in like a square peg in a round hole.
A suburban stadium will have economic drawbacks too. Depending on the kind of development and transit that end up surrounding it, events like the NCAA tournament could come to the area less frequently when compared to a stadium that is in the metro core with all the lodging, transit, food, and entertainment options that come with it.
That said, I also agree that “doing it right” is important. You can’t force the stadium in and get the Dome Part Deux. But there is a enough space in the Farmers Market location to be a very viable option (plus it will get the benefit of all the transit improvements going in). Will there be enough space for tailgating? Perhaps not. But tailgating isn’t the key to a stadium that is a showplace to the world nor is is a key to the economic vitality of the metro region or state.
Perhaps I mean visually, too
I’ve been to a lot of cities, and nothing strikes me awesome as much as a large-scale project that stands apart from all others.
As opposed to the typical city crapola, which is to say endless strip malls, some completely bland office buildings, however tall, crappy concrete freeways going every which way because they still use the paths our forefathers rode in on in their conestogas or whatever, mixed-use mumbo jumbo planning, and no particular plan for how to make the city better than it is.
Of course, I might mean “do this right” includes a laser image in the shape of a 1,000-foot battleaxe that pretends to take the head offa any Green Bay fan that dares to come near the stadium…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 11, 2012 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
Farmers Market
I caught just a few minutes of an interview with someone from the Viking last night saying that the Farmers Market “has issues” but that Linden Ave or the Metrodome could work (but isn’t their first choice).
I’m not sure what he was getting at though.
The Vikings have been talking about the FM site having grade issues...
…and there is the Sharing & Caring Hands location issue. Also, the site is owned by multiple groups making acquiring the land a more complex process. Could be any of those (though the grade issue thing seems laughable given the existence of a neat new tool called a bulldozer).
It is NOT a different issue
Tailgating and onsight parking were not issues at the Old Met due to plenty of parking areas outside the stadium, not inside. The Dome, has had issues with having these, OUTSIDE the stadium. Hence forth, both are done outside the stadium, not inside, whether it be open air or domed.
Thats why I care.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
by VikesFaninNM on Jan 11, 2012 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
So your theory then
Is that tailgating and parking were the keys to Viking success at the Met?
Or you just got confused about what was a reply to what?
You're kidding right?
You basically shoot down what I said about looking at a site that would be more beneficial to the fanbase by asking why doi I care, then when I state why, turn it around with tailgating was beneficial to the Vikings success in the Met? Where in the hell did you see me say that?
Sorry to say, either you enjoy twisting what people say into something they didn’t or you’re confused as to what others write.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is a war room!
by VikesFaninNM on Jan 11, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't shoot down what you said
I think you are confused.
To summarize:
1. You said you prefer AH because of “it being more open, more development and so on.”
2. I asked why people care about open space and room for development, other than easier access to the freeway and more tailgating.
3. skol Vikings responded saying we’ve not had the same success since moving to “a sterile environment like the dome”
4. I said “that’s a different issue” than open space and room for development, because he seemed to be saying he prefers playing outside.
5. You responded, “it’s not a different issue.”
So, unless you think playing outside (i.e., not a sterile environment like the dome) is the same as having open space and room for development, you do think it’s a different issue.
You also didn’t answer the original question, which asked about why open space matters other than parking, tailgating and access. That’s your prerogative, of course, but I didn’t shoot anything down. I will instead infer that you do not prefer it because there will be more surface parking lots and tailgating, and not specifically because of anything else that results from “it being more open, more development and so on.”
So not playing outside...
…caused Anderson to miss his first FG all season or Favre to play like Favre?
And as amiller notes, none of that has anything to do with the stadium plans being presented.
The proposed Shakopee stadium site
I don’t know if this is accurate, but it’s the first image I found that shows where the stadium would be located in relation to Shakopee.
http://assets.matchbin.com/sites/2177/assets/AWCC_site_rendering3.pdf
http://sports-boards.net | Top notch sports discussion!
Never been there.
But just to eyeball it it looks to be a pretty nice spot with attractions around that would be conducive to bringing out the whole family.
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
You're gonna take your kids to the track or the casino before the game?
I’m kidding, of course, although Valley Fair will be closed for most if not all of the football stadium.
Also, based on my few trips to Canterbury, it doesn’t seem like there is much in the area except the track, casino and Valley Fair.
But the biggest issue from the images they released (see this one in particular) seems to be that they show routing all of the 32,500 cars parked on site to the relatively small Valley Park Dr. and Broadband Blvd. If that’s what they plant to do, that’s going to be a huge mess.
My kids are luckier than I am!
I assume you meant football season in your first sentence. I don’t know thing one about the area, but it is refreshing to have someone else (new mayor I think) present a plausible plan when those guys in Minneapolis have dropped the ball on this for years (I already know where you want them to locate). I will say that my cousin took his kid to the the Metrodome for their first game this season and had a great time and says the inconveniences of the Dome were worth it to him just to watch the Vikes no matter what. Somebody just get something done because we do not want to lose this team!
Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne
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