Overrated/Underrated?

Overrated: Chris Kluwe

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 11, 2012 8:43 PM CST reply actions

Nope!

He’s good.

by chatter on Jan 13, 2012 9:05 AM CST up reply actions

he's not bad

Just not as good as everyone here on the DN thinks he is. He’s not pro bowl caliber.

"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen

by NMVike on Jan 15, 2012 6:55 PM CST up reply actions

YOU TAKE THAT BACK

RITE NAO

by REVENGE4KLUWE on Jan 13, 2012 10:07 AM CST up reply actions

Most Overrated: Chad Greenway
Most Underrated: John Sullivan
Rookie of the Year: Christian Ponder
Is Ponder the right choice: Yes and he had better be or else some heads will roll!
Is Frazier the right choice: Yes he is for now but the ice is very thin
Am I worried about AP regaining his form: Yes most definitely

by MarkSP18 on Jan 11, 2012 9:27 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

I can give you my thoughts...

Overrated: Visanthe Shiancoe
Underrated: John Sullivan
Rookie of the Year: We haven’t even drafted yet.
Christian Ponder IS the right guy for the job of QBOTF.
Leslie Frazier IS NOT the right guy for the job of Head Coach.
Adrian Peterson will NEVER be the same player he was before. He had already lost the speed he had early in his career, he’s never had elite vision, and now he’ll be playing on a bum knee. He’ll never be the same, but I believe Toby can be a good RB in this league. Not a pass-catching 3rd down back, but a legit “give him the ball 25 times a game” RB.

by mak07 on Jan 11, 2012 9:29 PM CST reply actions

Rookie of the Year

from this past year? I think you’ve got to go with Christian Ponder. It’s not really a question.
I think Kyle Rudolph will become a force at TE though, if we ever decide to throw to them again. He’s proven he’s a legit red-zone threat that can go up and get a jump ball.

by mak07 on Jan 11, 2012 9:31 PM CST up reply actions

I don't know if Adrian lost a step,

I kind of believe it has to be the decline of Hutchinson and the whole O-Line for that matter. And oh, not having a lead FB. Cough Tony Richardson Cough.

☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/debates and dedicated DN reader.

by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 12, 2012 1:55 PM CST up reply actions

Honestly,

I think that thing about AP is bull. He does have pretty good vision (you don’t lead the league in rushing almost every year since you got into the NFL if you can’t see the holes when they’re there) and he hasn’t lost very much of his speed. He can still outrun most people in the NFL, he just hasn’t gotten any lanes to get any breakaway runs because our line is absolute garbage. He got hit in the backfield on almost every play. Also, if there is anyone who can come back from that injury and play at a high level, it would be AP. The man works insanely hard. It’s happened before where running backs have come back from that same injury and had very good careers afterwards. And I think Leslie Frazier could be the right guy. But for both of those, only time will tell who is correct.

I agree with the rest.

by SirGrizzly on Jan 12, 2012 4:57 PM CST up reply actions

How do you explain

The fact that Toby Gerhart got 4.9 YPC compared to AP’s 4.7 YPC…
We both know Peterson has more speed.
It’s because Toby can anticipate the hole, has better vision when he gets to the hole, and doesn’t get caught behind the line of scrimmage. Toby doesn’t have the big plays, but he’s consistently good because he finds the hole and hits it.
Adrian Peterson has been able to rely on his elite athleticism to run over the other team or to twist out of a tackle or two…
He’s just not the same back he used to be, and I’m worried he’ll only lose another step after this injury.

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 5:56 PM CST up reply actions

Sample size.

Gerhart played very well, but the fact remains that he didn’t have nearly as many carries. That can affect YPC a whole lot. Peterson had 208 carries, Gerhart had 109. Peterson almost doubled his carries and still stayed close in YPC. In comparison, Maurice Jones Drew led the league this year in rushing and had 343 carries for 1606 yards with a 4.7 YPC. Arian Foster was second with 291 carries and 1364 yards with a 4.7 YPC. The small sample size really skews that stat and 4.7 YPC is right on pace with the best RBs in the league this year with a comparable amount of carries. Peterson would have had around 300 carries if he were healthy. Gerhart is not better than MJD and Arian Foster, who both had the same YPC as Peterson. He played great in a short amount of time, yes. I’m not trying to disprove that. I loved the way Gerhart played for us. But comparing a guy who had 109 carries with a 4.9 YPC to a guy that had 208 carries and still had a 4.7 YPC is not an argument that can really be made.

by SirGrizzly on Jan 12, 2012 6:26 PM CST up reply actions

Actually it's because AD faces 8-9 man fronts almost 65% of the time and when Toby comes in teams play more traditional 7 man fronts.

AD hasn’t lost a step yet but it remains to be seen how he recovers from the knee injury. Willis McGahee suffered a worse knee injury in college and it didn’t affect his career much. It’ll be interesting to see how AD recovers and if he has to adjust his game after knee surgery. In the worst case scenario I see AD losing his breakaway speed and being forced to rely more on his power running game inside the tackles. If this happens he may no longer be a great home-run type back and become just a solid back like Toby.

by CanadianViking on Jan 12, 2012 6:30 PM CST up reply actions

I can agree with most of those 2 comments...

I never said Gerhart was a better RB than Peterson. All I said is that he has better vision. And I stick by that. I do know that he faced 8 man fronts just like Adrian Peterson, but Peterson faced them more often. That is one thing that makes Gerhart look better.
The comment about Willis McGahee is totally false. He ran a 4.28 in college at Miami, and when he entered the draft he ran a 4.45. He lost almost .2 on his 40 time, and he NEVER got that elite speed back…
Adrian Peterson ran a 4.38 40 at the Combine, and his freshman year he kept that speed so he was very explosive. Nobody caught him. Now I’d be surprised if he ran under a 4.5. After he put on that weight to stay healthy, he lost a step that he never got back. I know this is a fact. He was nowhere near that 4.38 this year before he got hurt. This surgery is only going to make him slower too…

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 6:49 PM CST up reply actions

When I say "freshman" year,

I obviously mean rookie season. He lost a step from his rookie season to right now. I am not saying he wasn’t a top RB in this league before the injury, I’m just saying he wasn’t as good as he used to be. And this type of injury almost never allows a player to return to their old self. So that, essentially, is another step slower.

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 7:44 PM CST up reply actions

Poor choice of words on my part saying that McGahee's injury didn't affect his career much. I should've said that he's had a good career despite a more horrific injury than Peterson's.

I’ll also argue the 40 times even though I know it’s impossible to get accurate information in this area. If you look at 40 times taken in college they are routinely .05 of a second or more faster than official times at the combine. Case in point AD had 40 times in the low 4.3 range during college but ran an official 4.40 flat at the combine. McGahee’s 4.28 at Miami was likely closer to a 4.33 or 4.35 if he was clocked at the combine. Even with that allowance you’re correct that he lost a step to fall to a 4.45 in his post-injury time. I didn’t realize that McGahee was that fast pre-injury.

As for AD losing a step since his rookie season I think that’s a subjective debate and far from being a fact. There’s no way that AD had only 4.5 speed pre-injury this year as that would make him slower than Gerhart(Toby ran a 4.50 at combine) and from watching the two play this year I think it’s pretty obvious that AD was still much faster than Gerhart. I also don’t think Peterson is slower or not as good as his rookie season. I think the difference is that teams have game planned for him like no other running back in football from the latter part of his rookie season until now and that he’ll never get the space that he got for most of that year.

Post injury will be interesting and impossible to predict. Edgerrin James and Jamal Lewis are two RBs that rebounded from ACL tears with similar or better production post injury. Odds are that AD will look slower next year and return close to previous form in 2013 if he doesn’t suffer any setbacks. While I was looking for info on Jamal Lewis’ ACL injury I stumbled onto the post linked below showing some post ACL success stories. It definitely remains to be seen if AD will regain his form but there are multiple precedents to provide some optimism.

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2010/2/12/1307175/torn-acl-success-stories

by CanadianViking on Jan 12, 2012 8:20 PM CST up reply actions

I know there are success stories

And I hope Peterson is the next success story, but the athletes that come back and succeed are generally not as explosive. I really think this will hurt him, because he really relies on his explosiveness….
I also feel like he’s easily lost a step from his rookie year. He’s nowhere near a 4.38 or 4.4 anymore. I bet AP is in the 4.5-4.8 range. Toby is probably up around 5.2. I agree that Peterson is faster and more explosive right now, but after the ACL surgery, I’m not so sure that will be the case.

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 9:00 PM CST up reply actions

I can't disagree with the explosiveness issue. I hope he comes back just as explosive but that's probably overly optimistic on my part.

As for your 40 times I just think you’re way off. Toby just ran a 4.50 at last year’s combine and you think he’s lost more than 1/2 a second of speed already. And AD running a 4.8 is ludicrous. Hell Kyle Rudolph ran a 4.75(which was slow for him) just a few weeks after he was medically cleared and Ponder ran a 4.65 at the combine this year. I’ll concede that it’s possible AD might not run a 4.40 flat this season but there’s no way he’s dropped as much speed as you suggest. There isn’t a RB in the league that runs in the 4.7-4.8 range other than FBs. For example Legarrette Blount weighs 240+ and he has mid 4.6 speed. Do you really think that Everson Griffin, Ponder, and a slow pounder like Blount (4.6 guys) are as fast or faster than Peterson and Gerhart?

by CanadianViking on Jan 12, 2012 9:22 PM CST up reply actions

It was a total typo...

5.2 is a Hutch-like time…
I meant Peterson is probably in the 4.45-4.48 range, while Gerhart is around 4.52.
I think Peterson has lost about .1 on his 40 time since his rookie season, which is a somewhat big deal. Especially when he hasn’t been injured to cause him to slow down. Now, with an injury, I think he might slow down to Gerhart speed.

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 10:26 PM CST up reply actions

Cool, that makes sense. I think my head almost exploded when I saw AD as a 4.8 and Toby being Ryan Mallett speed : )

I may disagree with Peterson being .05 to.08 slower than he was as a rookie but that’s certainly plausible, and I reluctantly agree with you that post-surgery he could easily be slowed enough to become a 4.5 back like Toby. I really hope that isn’t the case cause AD without the breakaway speed becomes just another good back and not the great one we’ve been spoiled with.

by CanadianViking on Jan 12, 2012 10:58 PM CST up reply actions

Haha...

Yeah, that was my fault. I really don’t have a problem with AP on this team if he does come back and he isn’t as explosive, but there’s that crazy big contract we just signed him to…
That kinda scares me.
We have 36 million guaranteed tied up in a RB who (I believe) has already lost a step and is now waiting to start rehab for blowing out his knee, which doesn’t guarantee him losing a(nother) step, but it generally points in that direction. Because if he’s not elite anymore, that contract might really come back to haunt us…

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 11:05 PM CST up reply actions

The contract shouldn't hurt us too much even if he doesn't recover.

It’s a ton of money but the guaranteed portion is only for the first three years with year one already paid out. At worst the Vikings will get hit with a cap hit of 8,000,000 next year and 11,250,000 in 2013 so it might hurt the cap situation for a year or two but it won’t cripple the team long term.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/adrian-peterson/

by CanadianViking on Jan 12, 2012 11:16 PM CST up reply actions

This is an article about Peterson when he planned on putting on that weight...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/05/13/adrian.peterson/index.html
It goes on to talk about Deuce McAllister who advised Peterson to NOT put on the weight. He put on the weight after his 2nd season and ended up with an ACL tear. He believes the tear wouldn’t have happened if he stayed around 220.
It talks about how Childress and trainer Bubba Smith advised him that if he did put on the weight, he would decrease his speed.
LT talks about how his best year ever was at 214 pounds, his lightest year ever. He advised AP to not put on the weight or else he would lose his speed and be susceptible to injury.
Clinton Portis did put on the weight and stayed healthy, unlike others, but he said he lost all of his top-end speed. He said himself it was one of the trade-offs.
Adrian Peterson played his rookie season at 218 pounds. He is still listed at 217 pounds like he was in college, but I remember reading an article that he showed up this season at 228 pounds. That’s what he played at this season. I can’t find the link now though.
So basically, he was advised to not put on the weight or he would lose his speed and become injury prone. He did put on the weight (some of it at least, I don’t think he ever played over 230), he did lose his top-end speed, and he did get hurt (possibly because of it).

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 9:17 PM CST up reply actions

Ha, that old article. Peterson never gained that weight because people told him Ray Lewis and other defensive veterans were screwing with him: )

Here’s a link to the story that talks about how Peterson was talked into that plan and never followed through with it once his father and other’s told him the players advice on weight gain was foolhardy. The first story got way more play than the one that followed it though so I guess you missed it.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/vikings/2009-06-02-sw-adrian-peterson_N.htm

by CanadianViking on Jan 12, 2012 9:47 PM CST up reply actions

I know he didn't put on the 10 pounds that off-season...

But it seems like he’s put it on in the past 2 years, because he’s not 217 anymore…

by mak07 on Jan 12, 2012 10:27 PM CST up reply actions

+10

AP excels when his line creates cutback lanes. He gets ancy with the ball in his hand and doesn’t have the patience to wait for things to open up often enough. His ACL might actually slow him down, force him to stop relying on his athleticism, and improve his effectiveness with minnesota’s marginal o-line.

by chatter on Jan 13, 2012 9:10 AM CST up reply actions

Answers

Overrated: Antoine Winfield (he’s injured all the time)
Underrated: Toby Gerhardt (they guy would be a starter on most any team)
Rookie of the Year: Christian Ponder (although Kyle Rudolph is a close second)
Christian Ponder: Yes, he’s the QotF
Leslie Frazier: I’m on board for 1 more year, but we better see improvement
Adrian Peterson: Yes, he will never be the same.

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 11, 2012 10:45 PM CST reply actions

When I read your overrated/underrated I immediately thought...

BAM! He nailed it. I 100% agree.

"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

by kcskol on Jan 12, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions

Winfield's getting by on what he's done in the past and solid tackling when healthy.

That being said, I still love him as a football player.

by SirGrizzly on Jan 12, 2012 4:59 PM CST up reply actions

I agree with everything you wrote.

"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

by kcskol on Jan 12, 2012 7:35 PM CST up reply actions

Since when...

…is SOLID tackling a bad thing? Winfield should be a nickelback or strong safety at this point in his career. His talent shouldn’t be overlooked.

by chatter on Jan 13, 2012 9:14 AM CST up reply actions

I never said it was a bad thing. Not once.

He’s getting by on it is what I said. Which means that it’s still a valuable thing to have. I’m not overlooking his talent at all, I love the man as a football player. His coverage skills and his speed have declined so he’s still on the team because of the respect that we have for what he did for us and because he’s still a very good tackler.

Also, he’s opposed to a switch to safety, so he’ll probably be our nickel. Unless the backfield situation is still as bad as it is right now come next season, then he’ll probably be a starter by default.

by SirGrizzly on Jan 13, 2012 4:55 PM CST up reply actions

Overrated: Remi Ayodele
Underrated: Percy Harvin
Rookie of the Year: Christian Ponder
Yes, CP7 is QotF
Leslie Frazier is NOT right coach for the Vikes
Adrian Peterson: Lord, I hope he’s the same

Straight Cash Homey

by MOSScomeBACK2vikes on Jan 12, 2012 7:58 AM CST reply actions

If by Overrated you mean Overlooked,

then yes, Remi Ayodele is the most ‘Overrated’ player on this team. But to be Overrated, you have to be ‘rated’ first, right? Seriously, I have never heard the man’s name called in a game broadcast, or even on this forum. And there’s a good reason for that – is there a more invisible player on the field?

by mg7505 on Jan 16, 2012 2:04 AM CST up reply actions

Here goes:

Overrated: Antoine Winfield
Underrated: Toby Gerhardt
Rookie of the Year: We didn’t have a standout like Peterson or Harvin in years past. I suppose it would have to go to Ponder who had a so-so year.
Christian Ponder: No way of knowing at this point. He’s got a lot of improving he needs to do in some critical areas. Hopefully more experience helps.
Leslie Frazier: No.
Adrian Peterson: No. Peterson needs elite speed and agility to be effective. He’s not a disciplined back. He’s already slower than his rookie season. More than other backs, Peterson needs to remain a fast/agile back with tremendous athleticism in order to make up for his other deficiencies as a back.

"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

by kcskol on Jan 12, 2012 3:37 PM CST reply actions

AP could get by on his power.

He does have a lot of that. Haha I couldn’t see AP becoming a straight power back, though.

And I really don’t know if I would write him off as a definite “no” yet. He is a freak of nature. He could heal up nicely. And there is a precedence of backs coming off a similar injury and having good years after. If I remember correctly, Jamal Lewis had a similar injury, came back, and had a 2000 yard rushing year. There have been a few others who have done well after.

by SirGrizzly on Jan 12, 2012 5:04 PM CST up reply actions

Overrated – Chad Greenway – Kinda suprised he made the pro bowl. Despite the stats, he still had quite a few bad moments.
Underrated – Percy Miracles – If our OC stays, he will get him the ball a LOT in 2012 after now seeing what he can do for a season.
ROY – Christian Ponder – Duh. Although, if Rudolph was getting ball more he would have got it.
Ponder? – Sure – Let’s get him a good, smart receiver in FA and see what he does.
Leslie – Nope – Sorry, but I have never liked him. He’s a secondary guy and our secondary has been atrocious for years. He was riding the D-Line stopping the run for years. There is a reason he interviewed so many times for a Head job and never received it. Ugh. Can you imagine if we kept Mike Tomlin and axed Chilly back when we had the chance?
Worried about AP? – A little – But Toby at the end of the year not worry as much. More worried about AP himself than The Vikes. But he’s a freak of nature.

ya boy, jgreeds

by jgreeds on Jan 12, 2012 5:50 PM CST via mobile reply actions

Most Overrated: Visanthe Shiancoe
Most Underrated: Toby Gerhart
Rookie of the Year: Christian Ponder although he hasn’t done much yet.
Is Ponder the right choice: Probably, but he has not demonstrated that yet.
Is Frazier the right choice: Maybe. He needs to step up next season.
Worried about AP regaining his form: Yes but I think there is a good chance he will be strong again.

The NDSU Bison rock.

by berserkerND on Jan 12, 2012 6:52 PM CST reply actions

Overrated: E.J. Henderson… not stopping much up the middle, or Aromashodu as WR… he seems to be our go-to guy and has far too many missed connections and drops to play WR.

Underrated: Harvin or Rudolph… neither one is getting many tosses, which tells me either that the offensive plays are not designed well or that they can’t catch. They can catch.

Rookie: Ponder. But I like Rudolph, too.

QBOF: Ponder, but I have always thought Webb could play, too, and with better offensive plays he could get the ball off to the TE’s and WR’s just fine.

Frazier, while knowing what a Super Bowl is, seems like he is usually a day late and a dollar short on knowing what to do with the Vikings offense, defense, and special teams. That don’t leave much.

AP will be fine. It’s the play design and execution that I worry about, since Frazier says Musgrave will be back. I don’t expect AP to do much while Musgrave is still here.

by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 8:40 PM CST reply actions

Here is my take

Overrated: EJ Henderson, Chris Cook.

Underrated: Jared Allen-people here have been wanting to trade him for picks! Ridiculous! Truly ignorant! You don’t trade your BEST Player for unproven draft picks!

Rookie of the year: Kyle Rudolph. He wasn’t given enough opportunity to showcase his skills. He helps block on a terrible o-line and can catch the ball. Give him the ball!

Ponder is a serviceable QB and will show better with better o-line, improved WR talent, and more experience. He projects to be a rich gannon type baller. That’s ok with me!

Most head coaches are NOT successful in their first stint. Frazier will be no different. This team is a couple years off from winning football(look at the division) and he won’t be given that long of a leash, unfortunately!

AP’s knee injury will HELP his career. He will be forced to become a more patient runner, rely a little less on his natural ability, and will learn to trust his line and thus will find more holes with that patience and an improved line(through draft/FA). 80 yard runs don’t win most games. Consistent 5-6 yard gains do. He will have a better YPC average next year coming off ACL surgery. Mark my words.

by chatter on Jan 13, 2012 9:33 AM CST reply actions

Eugh

I didn’t like what I saw of Rudolph’s blocking at all. He has the potential, but this year he whiffed pretty regularly from what I saw. Aside from Kleinsasser, who is now gone, our TEs were awful blockers.

by REVENGE4KLUWE on Jan 13, 2012 10:12 AM CST up reply actions

I think he will be much better next year

Needs to learn better pro blocking technique. Short offseason/preseason didn’t give him an opportunity to work on everything. He blocked pretty well at ND when asked to.

by chatter on Jan 13, 2012 4:54 PM CST up reply actions

Most Overrated: Phil Loadholt- The Vikings seriously think he is good. Average at best.
Most Underrated: Percy Harvin – Really without him, this offense wouldn’t even be an offense.
Rookie of the Year: Christian Ponder
Is Ponder the right choice: Yes, watched all of his starts yesterday and I see something there.
Is Frazier the right choice: I’d like to give him another year with an offseason before pre-judging him.
Am I worried about AP regaining his form: Nope. He’s Purple Jesus. Tim Tebow envies him.

☠★☪Creator of http:/vikescity.info/ and dedicated DN reader.

by UnBannedVikingholic on Jan 13, 2012 10:02 AM CST reply actions

Assessing

Most Overrated - John Sullivan, Phil Loadholt – Ask Christian Ponder how good they are
Most Underrated – Christian Ponder – His numbers don’t reflect the amazing job he did
Rookie of the Year - Christian Ponder/Kyle Rudolph – Neither was good enough by himself, but both showed real flashes of possibility this year
Is Ponder the right choice? – Maybe. It’s too early to be sure.
Is Frazier the right choice? – No. Les II has been a disaster, and he lost control of his team. But money is an issue, so we’re stuck with him for now.
Am I worried about AP regaining his form? – Yeah… they need to give him all the time needed before letting him play in a full-contact game again, next year is full re-build mode anyway. Get AP healthy. My prayers are with him.

Ah, ah,
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
SKOL!

by DCPurple on Jan 14, 2012 9:01 PM CST reply actions

Trust me, no one's overrating Phil Loadholt

At this point, he can exceed expectations just by showing up.

by mg7505 on Jan 16, 2012 2:06 AM CST up reply actions

okay, here goes.

Vikings most overrated player? Christian Ponder

Most Underrated? Everson Griffen

Rookie of the year for the Vikings? None at this point.

Do you believe Christian Ponder is the right choice for QB? No, i see Mark Sanchez lite.
he makes too many poor decisions, freaks out at pressure and has trouble with some standard nfl throws.

Is Leslie Frazier the right choice for Head Coach? No, he is a waffling fool with no vision.

Are you worried Adrian Peterson will not be the same dynamic running back after he recovers from his injury?
Yes, i don’t think he will ever be the same, i think 2012 will be rocky, but he will probably bounce back in 2013, but he will not have the same burst or cutting ability, plus, he will be getting long in the tooth by then.

well then who the hell are you talkin' to...are you talkin' to me?

by krinkle on Jan 15, 2012 1:36 PM CST reply actions

Did you see Aaron Rodgers under pressure today?

Now multiply that pressure by 5, take away all vertical receiving targets, install a package of bad plays, hire an idiot OC, turn him into a rookie, remove all the mentoring from a HOFer, take away the OTAs/camp/first-team snaps, and take a sledgehammer to his hipbone – that’s what Ponder was dealing with on every play, all season long.

Far be it from me to say this kid is for real, but I’m sure not judging him after this year.

by mg7505 on Jan 16, 2012 2:11 AM CST up reply actions