Minnesota Vikings Stadium: Arden Hills Goes All In With $75 Million Increase In Contribution
by Ted Glover on Jan 12, 2012 2:40 PM CST
in Minnesota Vikings Stadium
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PrintChris just mentioned a few minutes ago that it looks like the city of Minneapolis will probably prevail in getting the Golden Wonka Stadium Ticket, but Arden Hills will not go quietly into the sweet night.
They have reportedly increased their contribution from $300 million to $375 million, and they lay out their case as to why the stadium should be there as opposed to a shoe horned location like any of the Minneapolis sites.
I think most everyone here wants Arden Hills to win, but like Fearless Leader mentioned, if the Minneapolis Mafia sets their site on something, they usually prevail. It doesn't seem like any plan has the required votes to get passed right now, but I think that will start to change once a plan is submitted.
The one thing they do have is unwavering support from the Vikings, and the most workable plan of any right now.
Oh, and it also has 21,000 parking spots, and just the stadium would generate over $9 million a year in local and state property taxes that would go towards stadium funding. To my knowledge, none of the other sites have tax revenue estimates at this time.
And as the clock ticks towards 5 PM, we'll be here to outline all the proposals that are turned in.
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The people have spoken
Now get your collectives heads out of your own/each others assess and build the stadium where it is actually wanted!
"At this point, what we got to lose, right? So we might as well throw caution to the wind and hit people in the face."
--Vikings DE Jared Allen
Arden Hills! Arden Hills! Arden Hills!
although… if they build it in Shakopee there would be less chedderheads on game day… I doubt they could even find Shakopee… not sayin’ … just sayin’.
BUILD IT ALREADY!!!
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Jan 12, 2012 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
I'm hoping that they have TSA do security
And anyone secretly wearing Packers underoos will be prevented from entering the stadium ;)
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
Arden Hills seems to set the standard in excellence
And with Shakopee’s mayor only having been in office for a week, they are coming strong out of the gate, too.
The Minneapolis people are the worst leaders in all this, if you ask me…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 2:48 PM CST reply actions
With all due respect
I’ll care more about your views on where to build a stadium when they starting talking about where in Ohio to put it.
The text of Rybak’s and Johnson’s Minnespolis proposal is here. It’s pretty vague, actually, and talks about “downtown east” rather than specifically the metrodome, which is interesting. Perhaps they’re leaving open the possibility that they will use the Strib site.
The major advantage that jumps out at me is that they’re proposing doing this out of existing convention center taxes, but they rely on unspecified “state resources” until 2020 when those funds free up.
I’ll be interested to see what the others submit, but I’d call this underwhelming in terms of persuasiveness.
Which just means
They are operating on a hope and a prayer that this will come to fruition, since it doesn’t specify where the other funds will come from other than $150 million from the City of Minneapolis, which probably won’t even be enough to tear down the Metrodome…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
metrodome will eventually tear itself down...
if the last roof is any indication.
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Jan 12, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The only way...
…. the Metrodome goes away is with a demolition team. That is one solid hunk of concrete. I still think they should remodel the dang thing, but that’s not gonna happen.
yep...
the “roof” comment was tongue in cheek ;-)
Forgot to add a winking smiley … sorry.
Vikings Valhalla .com
by Admiral BigGun on Jan 12, 2012 4:21 PM CST up reply actions
The "Minneapolis East" plan
Also features an unrealistic expectation for the Vikings contribution for a far inferior plan. The Minneapolis plan would get the most support from politicians getting pressure from the MM but it is so unabashedly awful and unworkable that I can’t get on board with Tommy P’s prediction from earlier today.
Arden Hills is still the front runner from where I’m sitting. That increased contribution changes things and makes them the new cheapest option, from the state’s point of view. The Vikings and local partners will give BY FAR the most to that site, leaving a much smaller contribution from the state (on top of which, most of the state’s money will cover things like cleaning the site and road improvements, which are things they’d have to pay for eventually anyways).
You're also assuming that the deadline means something...
…and that the Basilica or FM sites are automatically out of the running. I’m kinda cynical about the deadline. And even if it is for real, that just suggests to me that nothing will get accomplished this session besides the AH/Dome/Shakopee plans getting buried.
If they all get buried
The team is gone. If Dayton wants to keep the Vikings here, he needs to definitively throw his support behind a bill and get it done.
The team has already said they'd support a Basilica plan.
If that plan gets raised now or next session it is not a forgone thing that the team is gone.
There is no "next session"
They have no lease keeping them in Minnesota anymore and will not sign an extension without a plan in place.
It's like signing a 1 year lease on a crappy apartment
Because the landlord promises they’ll have a plan for a new apartment next year…. But for the 14th year in a row…
I'm not saying you're wrong.
I just disagree. I don’t think they are ready or even want to move the team.
Because they don't, really
The choice the team faces if it doesn’t get done this year – and I still think it will and it should – is whether an LA option is more likely and more desirable than giving it another year here.
There’s plenty of uncertainty about LA and when and where they would play next year too.
Not terribly, no
They’d play in the Coliseum until this AEG stadium gets taken care of. There is still some uncertainty involving the AEG stadium but it’s not anything substantial enough to hold it up. The only reason they haven’t moved forward more at this point is because they don’t have a team lined up and it would be pointless to do so. Los Angeles is a very lucrative option for any team as it would require a substantially smaller team contribution to build the new stadium there. Don’t underestimate how badly the NFL wants a team in the 2nd largest media market in the country.
You can't assume the Coliseum as an option.
USC now has the ability to say no to any pro team getting access b/c of the inability of the stadium authority to hold up contractual promises. And USC is not automatically inclined to grant easy access.
But the AEG stadium is uncertain too
As is playing in the Colliseum given the rights that USC has under their lease.
And even if they wanted to move to LA, it might still be better to play another year here to see how things develop before announcing that.
It's folly to assume that's a possibility
They’ve explicitly said they won’t sign a lease extension at the dome without a new stadium plan in place. And with their lease up, there’s literally nothing to keep them here. It’s possible they’d back down from that, but trying to call the team’s bluff is a dangerous game.
It's also a folly/naive to assume...
…that everything that gets said in public is what will happen when push comes to shove.
I’d be more worried/will be more worried if the Vikings start overtly threatening to leave.
Again, this is all opinion though…neither of us is wrong (yet). =)
Threats are a negotiating tactic
I’m more worried they’ll just flip the legislature the bird and drive off in the middle of the night.
Ha ha...
…and that’s exactly the thing I’m not worried about. Mostly b/c I don’t think the NFL would be cool with it.
Moves yes.
Middle of the night, no. I’d expect that the NFL will have the Vikings play the “we’re moving card” pretty loudly before they bolt.
It's politics
And it’s a negotiation. What they’ve said is not written in stone.
As things stand right now, it doesn’t seem like a move to LA before next year is a real strong possibility, even if that where they ultimately end up.
Also, their lease may not be up.
But you’re right, it would be dumb to assume that these thing means that the legislature can afford not to act. I don’t agree with that at all. It’s time to get it done.
The lease is up*
Even if they win that fight to extend the lease through 2012, there’s a clause that would allow the Vikings to buy out that year for a relatively minimal cost (a few million dollars, chump change in the grand scheme of moving costs).
They have to make the MFSC whole
Which is actually what they’d likely have to do if they broke the lease anyway, regardless of the liquidated damages provisions.
But yeah, it’s not a ton of money, although if you’re still trying to negotiate with various government partners (here or LA) you might not want the appearance of having just squelched on your obligations with a government entity.
Look, they will be able to go if they want. That’s always been the case (lease or no lease).
But I don’t think they really want, and I don’t think there is anything that’s really set up for them to go right away, so I don’t think it’s terribly likely they go anywhere before next season.
I do think, though, that if a stadium deal isn’t done this session, there that greatly increases the chance they will leave after next season.
But probably not to LA
Latest news is that Mark Davis, son of Al, is thinking about heading to LA again for the 8 millionth time.
The Raiders should be able to get a discount at Mayflower Movers by now…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
That means nothing
LA is looking for two teams, AFC and NFC. Just like New York and just like the old days.
It's not an obligation, it's a technicality
Even if it’s enforceable, which seems to be up in the air still.
I am sure
that is exactly what the politicians and fans in Cleveland were saying in 95.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
I heard someone from the Vikes
I think it was Bagley, say they can work with either Linden Ave or the dome.
As a location
That doesn’t mean they are signed off on those plans. Mostly because they’re awful and assume a much larger than realistic contribution from the Vikings.
Also
You don’t know how much the Vikes will contribute to other sights, because they haven’t said.
Yes
But the price tags are lower in Minneapolis, allegedly.
I think this increased contribution would change that
$375 million from Arden Hills is a game changer. That money would come straight out of the state’s bottom line. As I mentioned elsewhere; that drops the state contribution to $225 million, almost all of which would be covering things like site cleanup and road improvements, which are necessary state expenditures anyways (with or without the Arden Hills stadium).
The Minneapolis sites carry a smaller overall price tag, but the decreased contribution from the Vikings will minimize that advantage too.
It's not really
Because it’s for other stuff. As the proposal says, they’re offering $75 million towards the operating costs. (see page 7).
So they’ve added $75 million in contribution, but only by adding $75 million in costs to the pot.
How do you know it's awful and unworkable?
They didn’t really say anything about it ;)
Looking at it again, though, it actually is explicitly the dome site, but it doesn’t actually assume anything about the team’s contribution because it doesn’t give a total price tag.
If I worked in the mayor’s office I’d either be embarrassed or frustrated they were was something going behind the scenes that prevented providing more detail.
It's embarrassing
In about ~9 months since they first threw their hat in the ring with the Arden Hills plan, this is the best they could come up with. Arden Hills has 148 pages of in depth and detailed proposals. Minneapolis REALLY dropped the ball here, even by my low standards.
Actually
If you look at the 148 pages, it’s mostly different versions of the County’s agreement with the team and the proposed agreement to by the land from the feds. Lots of long agreements make it sound like more than it is.
But it’s a 14 page proposal with support documents that lay out most of the details. That’s a lot more than the mayor and council president provided.
Those pages are still relevant
It showcases a lot of the legwork they’ve already taken care of in the last 9 months. Legwork that Minneapolis presumably felt was unnecessary. Of course, it would probably help if Minneapolis could narrow their options down to one site.
They seem to have done so
And agreements of that type are not needed given that the state already owns the dome site.
I’m surprised by the developments of the day. I thought the city would do more. I think they’ve left themselves in a vulnerable position.
Of course, the only thing that really matters is votes in he legislature, so we’ll see what the governor thinks he can do.
No disagreement there.
The City hasn’t approached this with the kind of focus that AH/Ramsey did. No question.
Yeah
Apparently Ramsey County submitted a 148 page plan. They win on words used.
Here’s the summary press release, which seems to have a recycled title (which is sort of funny).
Could just fill the stadium with helium...
…and hope it blows away. With a good easterly breeze, maybe it could hit Lambeau Field on the way to its final resting spot.
"Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Arden Hills Proposal is intense!
That thing is a friggin novel, we’re talking 148 pages! By comparison, the only Minneapolis proposal seen so far is a whopper, 4 pages.
Looks like Ramsey County has done their homework, and Minneapolis is just hoping that Dayton will be stubborn and insist upon the stadium being built in Minneapolis.
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Why Minneapolis?
This is why (from Sid Hartman’s column today):
Last Monday night, top Twin Cities business leaders had a meeting at the Minneapolis Club and a downtown stadium was discussed. Those leaders are doing a lot of contacting of politicians and trying to help in getting a deal done.
And “unwavering” support from the Vikings would be much more meaningful if they brought more money to the table. As long as they want public money, they will have to put up with the politics. A guy from New Jersey isn’t going to trump all the executives in Minneapolis. Not to mention, those executives (and their underlings) from Minneapolis are the very people the Vikings want to build a new stadium for. Luxury suites, remember?
Luxury suites?
No matter where you build it, they’ll still buy/rent them. OH, NO~! THEY’LL HAVE TO DO OUT OF DOWNTOWN MPLS DO DO IT. Nicely done, Arden Hills. Hopefully that was the river card that’ll take down the mafia.
The Vikings need....
…. the Minneapolis “Mafia” more than they need the Vikings. It doesn’t matter if it’s our beloved Vikings, leverage means everything in business. The Vikings are trying to swing more weight than they got.
False
Were that the case, the “Mafia” wouldn’t be trying so hard to work the system to keep them downtown.
When a team is capable of leaving town, they officially don’t need local business leaders.
huh?
Sure they do or they would already have paid for their own stadium in Arden HIlls.
What? Nope
They need government money. And they need government approval to build at that site. They can’t just build there by themselves. Why would they want to anyways? The state benefits from the team, they should contribute.
Don’t see what that has to do with Minneapolis business leaders trying to sabotage the Arden Hills site.
And they can't get the government money or approvals...
…without the backing of the people that many in the government are looking to. In other words, they do indeed need the “mafia” on their side.
They could build there by themselves, for the most part
It would just be a $700-800 million stadium, instead of adding the $300-400 million of the State’s portion to it…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
Sometimes I think you guys are being intentionally obtuse
They wouldn’t build it on their own. That’s the point.
You can’t say “they don’t need anyone else” and then turn around and say “but they need other people.”
They need to make elected officials happy. To do that, other constituents need to be happy too. If they want the money — which yes, we should be happy to give them for the right deal — then they have to keep other relevant parties, like local business leaders, happy too.
Let me try again, because I feel like my point wasn't clearly stated
My point is the legislature is supposed to do what’s best for their constituents, not just their constituents with the deepest pockets (though these days, it does seem to grey in that area). We’re confusing “what’s best for Minneapolis businesses” with “what’s best for the people of Minnesota”. Because they aren’t necessarily the same thing. I truly believe that the Arden Hills site is best for Minnesota and will generate the most new tax revenue for the state.
JimBob is right, business leaders aren’t going to pull their suites because the Vikings move out of downtown. The Vikings don’t need to pander to the Minneapolis businesses to succeed. Or they shouldn’t.
I don't think they will pull their suites
In a big group, but being away from downtown does make it harder for business people to buy tickets for events there and decrease demand at the margin.
Probably not so much for football on Sunday, but if there’s a Thursday night concert it would be harder to bring a client out there than to go right from the office to the show. That’s a small difference but it’s there.
As for what’s best of the state, yeah, you’re right, but that’s far from clear cut. If Minneapolis is done right (which no one seems to be proposing), it could generate more tax base. And, of course, it’s supposedly going to cost less.
But the judgment of what’s best for the state is going to be made on the basis of the feedback that elected officials get from their constituents. Business leaders are an important subset of those constituents, both because of the importance of their businesses to the community, and, right or wrong, because they give money to campaigns.
So yeah, because the Vikings need to get through the political process, they better be doing what they can to work with local business leaders if they want to succeed. And they should, unless they see a way to get what they want without going through the political process.
I disagree that the Minneapolis site can generate as much revenue
Between all the new restaurants, hotels and stores that would spring up around the Arden Hills stadium in a property that is currently completely unusable and generating no money for the state, and the additional revenue the Vikings would make at a site like that vs. the Minneapolis sites (parking revenue alone will generate millions more in taxes over the life of the stadium) I don’t see how the Minneapolis sites can compete. Not to mention potential additional revenue of adding an MLS franchise to the state(something that I don’t see happening at the Minneapolis sites).
But yea, unfortunately that’s not how the game is played. I just hope the legislators can make a real decision instead of just caving to Minneapolis pressure. Because right now, in my opinion, the Minneapolis plans just seem too half-assed to dignify with a serious discussion.
Now you're just restating your assumptions
All the new restaurants, hotels and stores are speculative. They may or may not happen, and don’t really show up at all in the AH plan. I’d love see it, but in this economy, I’m not sure much is coming in the near term. It’s only 10 games a year.
Also, I said, “if Minneapolis is done right.” There is plenty of room for new restaurants, hotels, stores and housing in Minneapolis too, and in businesses that are likely higher revenue (i.e., higher tax) and have higher property values (i.e., higher tax).
But I don’t know what you mean about parking revenues generating new tax revenues. Parking revenues matter because they will shift from the various parking vendors downtown to the Vikes, but that doesn’t really mean any new tax revenue, just different taxpayers.
As for MLS, that probably isn’t happening. The Stars aren’t exactly packing them in or a big financial success. But even if it does, it’s both not much money (those franchises don’t really make any) and I don’t know why you think they wouldn’t come to a downtown stadium.
They aren't speculative
That’s part of the plan. It’s part of why the Vikings prefer the Arden Hills site; it has the space for development that none of the other sites have. It’s not a part of the plan because it’s a separate development. But they included pictures in their proposal of the surrounding development ideas and have made no secret of their plans to develop it. It’s no more presumptuous than to say that they’ll build a stadium on whatever site gets approved.
Also, I said, "if Minneapolis is done right." There is plenty of room for new restaurants, hotels, stores and housing in Minneapolis too
There is room there. But there is not nearly as much room as the Arden Hills site. The potential for development is FAR greater there (and isn’t the local contribution coming from hotel/restaurant taxes in Ramsey County? My understanding is that would boost the tax rate higher than Minneapolis).
But I don’t know what you mean about parking revenues generating new tax revenues. Parking revenues matter because they will shift from the various parking vendors downtown to the Vikes, but that doesn’t really mean any new tax revenue, just different taxpayers.
I’m operating on the assumption that not all of the cash handed over at those privately run parking lots is reported to the proper authorities. I think it’s naive to assume that all of it is. But even if it was, I am fairly certain the Vikings would have to pay a higher tax rate than the private citizens running those lots. I could be totally wrong about these assumptions. I don’t think I am.
As for the MLS, you need to do your research. The fact is that the MLS is a league very much on the rise. They even surpassed the NBA and NHL in average attendance this year. It’s estimated that over half of the teams in the league made a profit in 2011 (which may not sound like much, but only two were profitable 2 seasons ago). The Stars aren’t a major league team, so they are irrelevant to this discussion. Comparing them to an MLS franchise is about on par with comparing the Saints to the Twins. I think the fact that Blaine hosts one of the largest youth soccer tournaments in the world is encouraging that the support would be there if an MLS team came to Minnesota.
And I don’t think they’d go for a Minneapolis stadium because they’d have to compete with Twins traffic in the summer, which could be prohibitive and overcrowding. Moreover, there is more room at the Aden Hills site for them to have on-site training facilities.
Just to give you the numbers:
2011 average attendance:
MLS: 17,872
NBA: 17,323
NHL: 17,132
It’s more amazing that they’re seeing such growth in the midst of a recession that has hurt attendance in all other leagues.
Yes
I Know they plan to develop it. What I’m saying is that n ths economy I doubt that is happening very fast.
And mor space =/= more value.
As better enforcement of taxes on parking revenue, maybe, but a lot of downtown parking is municiple too. I wouldn’t bet on more money making it into government hand from parking.
As to MLS, as what you said shows, attendance doesn’t mean profitable. And putting 18,000 people in a 70,000 seat stadium doesn’t necessarily mean profitable either.
It would be great to have a team, but the facts that there isn’t an plan to expand here, the league is a money loser, and they can play in whatever stadium is built (assuming they want to p,sy indoor, which they don’t), makes MLS no reason to refer one site over another.
Being part of the plan doesn't mean they happen.
Developers put all sorts of stuff in their plans. The potential of AH is clearly greater. But that doesn’t mean its a guarantee that it happens at the envisioned scale. Legislators may choose to be understandably skeptical of funding a speculative vision.
And how do they get government money?
By coming up with a plan that has the support of local business leaders (among other constituents).
Also, yeah, they can pretty much build on that site on their own.
One thing I gotta say
Is that it’s kind of exciting to feel like there is movement on stadium site. Regardless of site, let’s hope something actually comes out of this.
Well, one thing for sure
There will be a substantial amount of time arguing over who has the better proposal and who has more horsepower in the legislature and who has more money to spend.
Not sure it will get resolved during this legislative session…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
I'm guessing it doesn't.
Not in an election year. Everyone will get heated and then nothing will happen.
Double edged sword
No one wants to be in office and let the team leave the state in an election year either.
Wait
Wasn’t Ramsey Counties share 350 mil before? That would make their new contribution 425 mil, which pretty much matches the Vikings offer.
by Amrius on Jan 12, 2012 3:31 PM CST via Android app reply actions
Never mind
Should probably read the source first. Herpaderp
by Amrius on Jan 12, 2012 3:38 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Anyone else notice
The comments on the article are still talking like they’re going to hike the sales tax to pay for it. Apparently its too much to ask that people keep up on it.
by Amrius on Jan 12, 2012 3:40 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
I promise you this.
No matter where it goes, it’s still going to be a dump. Thank the Twins for at least taking the time to build a great stadium.
HA
Yeah, sure
"Believe in the system. For it shall bring light when there is dark, food when there is hunger, and shots when there are passes. This is the divine process." Yeo 4:18
by NorthernStar on Jan 12, 2012 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
Now it makes even MORE sense
Which means it’s even _less_likely to happen. Sigh.
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by Eric J. Thompson on Jan 12, 2012 3:37 PM CST reply actions
At this point Arden Hills is coming in last
If the GOP has to pass this alone why would they put it in DFL territory. Shakopee votes GOP all the time. Also the political muscle for the DFL is in Minniapolis and StPaul. I don’t even think the DFLer who represents Arden Hills supports that location.
by emeyenburg on Jan 12, 2012 3:47 PM CST via mobile reply actions
How can they pass it alone?
It’s going to take a bipartisan effort to get it done (if nothing else because of Dayton).
Also, yeah, why should they think about anything but the spoils of victory they can heap on themselves?
Many of which are occupied...
…by folks who won’t let taxes be raised ever for any reason. I don’t seem them supporting any plans that include tax increases.
Right
This isn’t a partisan issue.
There are DFL members who don’t like it because it’s subsidizing rich people. There are GOPers (when did they drop the IR thing?) that don’t want any new tax revenues.
It’s going to take votes from both parties by people who have enough leadership to get it done. And, of course, the DFL governor is going to have to sign the bill.
The GOP has a few seat majority
As far as I know just one GOP sen is against a gambling financed stadium. There may be more but I don’t know of them.
The GOP has said they don’t want to pass a partisan bill but they could if they wanted to.
That assumes that Dayton will pass it, but he claimes
by emeyenburg on Jan 12, 2012 5:01 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Claimes to be nutral.
Damn phones.
by emeyenburg on Jan 12, 2012 5:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Zellers
Has not sounded very supportive in the house.
I don’t see a way this gets done on a partisan vote.
I think most of his skepticism stemmed from
The lack of anything concrete in the way of financing to look at.
So far, Minneapolis has not come up with anything, even with the filing today. I think Zellers has something to work with in the AH and Shakopee proposals, but it will not be easy…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
Not exactly
He and Koch seemed to be directly responsible for killing the original Arden HIlls sales tax proposal.
The Ramsey County board approved it, but Zellers and Koch said they wouldn’t even consider waiving the referendum requirement as the County requested.
I'm not sure I understood
I recall that it was Wilf who said he didn’t want the proposal to go to the taxpayers (they’ve shot down a lot of tax hike proposals in other stadium cities).
And Zellers and Koch said they wouldn’t call a Special Session to waive the referendum requirement.
We are now coming up to the regular session, which won’t incur the additional costs of throwing a Special Session.
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 5:25 PM CST up reply actions
But that still doesn't mean they have to call a vote to waive the requirement.
And as I recall the cost of the special session (which is called by the Gov, not the legislature btw) wasn’t listed as the reason for not giving the vote a chance.
It's called by the Governor, yes
The issue was that the Speaker determines the length of the session. As such, he was literally able to say “Session is 2 minutes, go!” They were effectively blocking the session because of their unwillingness to cooperate.
No one who wants a stadium wants a referendum
The Vikings and Ramsey County proposed a county sales tax to pay for the county’s part of the stadium. According to the County charter, that requires a referendum. But the legislature waived that requirement for Target Field (and also Xcel?). The County’s original proposal asked for the same kind of waiver for the Arden HIlls stadium.
From all appearances Zellers and Koch said no. We don’t know that 100% for sure, but we do know that Dayton took the Arden Hills proposal to the legislature and after negotiations with legislative leaders (i.e., Zellers and Koch), came back saying that a referendum waiver for the county sales tax wasn’t going to happen.
After that, the Vikings and the County took the sale tax off the table because they didn’t want to have a referendum this year. It’s a fair inference that part of why they did that was because they don’t want to wait until after November, but also a big part of it is that they fear losing the vote. That’s why the new proposal from the county doesn’t include the original sales tax as a funding source.
Zellers also sent an email to his caucus saying no to a special session.
to be fair
when you say this year, you mean Nov of 2012. this year, when things were started was still in 2011. if they had gotten the waiver (and assuming the legislature approves it’s share of the funding). ground would be broken on the construction project some time int he spring early summer of 2012. but if they have to wait for a referendum (which only happens during elections.) that vote can’t happen until Nov 2012, and then there is no certainty that it passes, but assuming it does, construction can’t start until spring summer of 2013. all the while the Vikings have no lease to play any where, or even an obligation to play in MN while waiting for elections for what is more or less next year, rather then this year.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 9:59 PM CST up reply actions
the party leadership
have been very vocal that under no circumstances would they allow a waiver of the requirement of a referendum on a new tax. it was the county and the Vikings that proposed the tax and asked for the waiver.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 9:53 PM CST up reply actions
More details
Looking at the full AH plan
They put a lot of work into it, but they might want to fire whoever picked the images. Run-down arsenal building and pictures of freeway traffic jams seem harmful.
If you're familiar with those roads
That’s actually a good picture. That’s probably the worst bottleneck in the state, possibly one of the worst in the country. They need to fix that area whether they build a stadium there or not.
And unfortunately, that’s how those buildings look. The place is a waste of space.
I agree with all of that
I’m just saying when you’re making you fancy presentation, maybe that’s not what you want to show.
I’m surprised they haven’t released more images of how glorious it will all be instead.
Just different approaches
You can show how bad things are and demonstrate the need for improvement, or you can show shiny potential images. If they show free running roads and pretty wetlands in their presentation, the readers will go “Oh, this looks pretty good the way it is. Why do they need our money?”
I think they did a good job of mixing “what this is” and “what it could be” from what I’ve seen.
Well context matters
The traffic jam is on the page that says it will be easy to get to.
But I’ll grant you that the pictures of what’s there are next to stuff that talks about the need for clean up.
Coming down to it, boys and girls.
is it too soon to leave this here?
by Odin'sDrunkenSon on Jan 12, 2012 4:26 PM CST reply actions
Minneapolis was just throwing things up against the wall and hoped they stuck
It looks like they didn’t come in with that proposal, and went with the Metrodome site instead…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
i was watching on
Kstp channel 5 and they pushed the old dome site, my grandma seems to this.k that’s the best choice…. Because were getting taxed all the way up here in st. Cloud…. I dislike how politically narrow minded my family can be, my mom on the other hand is a Packer fan and supports the arden hills sight
by Lunchpail on Jan 12, 2012 5:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
if it has to be in Minneapolis
I thought that the Basilica would have made for a great sight line out of the new Stadium
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
Let the Metrodump fall... Vikings become NFL Free Agents
Let the Metrodump lease expire and hopefully the NFL will allow the Vikings to become free agents and move. Let them move out of Minneapolis and go somewhere else… LIKE ARDEN HILLS!
Presenting your ARDEN HILL VIKINGS! heheheh… Unfortunately, politicians like the greedy bastards in Minneapolis will pull enough strings to bring the Vikings back to the “Metrodump-No Tailgating” site. Wilf will cave. If I were him, I’d simply cut off all talks with any of the Metrogoons and let them know you aren’t budging from wanting the stadium in Arden Hills.
by Valhalla Express on Jan 12, 2012 5:28 PM CST reply actions
yea but then they might leave the state
by Lunchpail on Jan 12, 2012 5:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
As far as I know the Vikes have never stated how much they will kick in for a mpls dump.
Maybe they will do something in AH without the legislature.
Like build an open air stadium with tif financing and their own resources.
by Lars in SLP on Jan 12, 2012 5:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, all they need
Is an extra $500-700 mil. or so.
Wilf might be able to do that...
Might also have to sell his new crib, though…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
Nope.
They can do a roofless stadium for a lot less money than a covered one. Remember Wolf originally asked for a roofless facility but was told the State money would only be available for a year round venue that could host a variety of events.
If they go with Ramsey County alone, no state money, they can build whatever they want. With all the adjacent Wilfdevelopment land, it may be a workable situation.
Using tax increment financing could be just the trick to let them go to Arden Hills and tell the lgislature to go to…
by Lars in SLP on Jan 12, 2012 7:06 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That's why the bottom end wasn't $600 mil
Its not that much cheaper to leave the roof off.
But if Wilf had to own it, I bet he wants a roof for the same reason the state does — the chance to get some non-Vikings revenue out of it in the winter (ie NCAa, concerts, etc).
It's all fantasy...
Dayton is neutered. Wilf will cave. Metrodump will be torn down and the Metrodump II will be erected. Fans will not have any space to tailgate.
by Valhalla Express on Jan 12, 2012 5:34 PM CST reply actions
From far away
I would say Dayton’s process has a specific result in mind. Either it’s to rally around one site, increase competition to lower costs, have multiple options. If the Vikings wanted to leave, they would be opposing all these sites. It really is a question of when and where, not if they will stay.
by Vikefandc on Jan 12, 2012 5:44 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Move the Vikings to Duluth
… we’d love to have them up here!
by Valhalla Express on Jan 12, 2012 6:01 PM CST reply actions
My roommates and I rented a couple of houses there while going to UMD
I’m pretty sure they are long past the time they should be torn down to make way for a stadium…
by liveforadrenaline on Jan 12, 2012 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
That would be awesome
they could take the Central High site and surrounding area.
If only dreams came true………
Arden Hills!
But, I honestly don’t care where it goes as long as they’re are Minnesota Vikings for a long time coming. Screw you L.A.!
Ever since they proposed the Arden Hills site, I’ve been stating the southern metro area would be a better area. The areas I was recommending was Eagan, Burnsville, Bloomington, Eden Prairie or Shakopee. These areas have a better road system already in place for traffic in and out after games.(DOWNTOWN STINKS!) Also a better selection of motels, hotels, restaurants and entertainment, as in Water parks, Mall of America, Mystic Lake Casino, Canterbury Park and Valley Fair. Its closer to the Vikings Headquarters at Winter Park, closer to The Mankato spring training site and is in the area of the original Viking’s Met football stadium. It never “had to be” in Minneapolis. Minneapolis sees all the “benifits” of having the stadium in “Minneapolis”.
Also just recently they have proposed the site near the Basilica of St. Mary, a historic Catholic Church.
How is this proposed site any different timing than the now proposed Shokopee site? That just an excuse to eliminate the competition. Also look at the estimate cost. Less than any of the current sites. If we can still get the Vikings to invest the same as Arden Hills why not? They said they would invest “less” in the Minneapolis sites, and also they wouldn’t have the additional $67 million expenses relating to the Metrodome proposal. I also think without the “cleanup” that would be required at the Arden Hill site, this new proposal could have the new stadium up and running before any of the other sites, which would get the Vikings out of the Metrodome faster/or eliminate the headache of using the TCF Stadium, which I feel would cause lost revenue due to season ticket holders cancelling their renewals, and less seating, besides “NO BEER”!!!!(AT THIS TIME)
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