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Early Stadium Proposal Review

CCNorseman has done a pretty good job breaking down the relevant proposals here. So, to the front page it goes. Enjoy! - Chris

I've been checking in regularly today to see what the good folks here at DN have to say about the various stadium proposals, since the deadline was at 5pm today. And after checking various internet sources as well, I stumbled on some interesting articles. According to the Pioneer Press, there were many proposals presented, but the Governor is focusing on two: Minneapolis and Arden Hills. So, a breakdown of those two proposals follow after the jump.

Star-divide

1. Minneapolis

There have been competing venues in Minneapolis, but officially only 1 site has the proposal that was submitted to the Governor. I'll work through each one.

1a. Downtown East. This is the official 4-page proposal, and is the current Metrodome site. It would cost an estimated $907 Million, and would open in 2015. The Vikings would have to play at TCF Bank Stadium at the University of MN for 3 years while they demo the Metrodome, and rebuild a new stadium. They are calling this "The People's Stadium", and would be financed through existing "Convention Center Taxes", which is a combination of a 0.5% citywide sales tax, 3% restaurant/liquor tax and a 2.65% hotel/lodging tax. They would also raise funds from a new Block E casino, and some of the proceeds for this endeavor would go towards renovating Target Center and the Convention Center. There weren't a lot of details in this plan, but through re-allocating those existing taxes, the city can come up with $150 Million. Additional revenue would come from the Block E casino, but there is no estimate given there. The state has already agreed to kick in $350 Million regardless, and Wilf has publicly stated that while he is willing to privately spent $425 Million on Arden Hills, he's not willing to spend that much on Minneapolis. So, there is a shortfall in funding that would need to come from somewhere with this proposal.

1b. Basilica/Linden Ave. The Mayor was quoted as saying that they are "open to and in continued discussions" with the Vikings on this other site. I wasn't able to find a specific proposal for this site, and I'm not sure if the Mayor submitted one. However, since the priest of the basilica is against a stadium anywhere near there, and the cost is $1.01 Billion, I would assume this option is probably a back-up plan at best.

1c. Farmer's Market. There has been no mention of this site by the Mayor either, and it was not mentioned in the proposal. I assume it's no longer on the table.

2. Arden Hills

This is a more seriously fleshed out proposal, and is the one the Vikings support. It is a 148 page proposal will clear plans for cleanup of the old Army Ammunition site, infrastructure fixes with the interstates, and funding packages. While it's a little more expensive than the Metrodome site, the Wilf's are also willing to chip in more private money to make it happen. The estimated costs of this site are $1.111 Billion, and it would also open in 2015 (the Vikings would continue to play in the Metrodome until it is finished). The biggest difference between this site and the downtown Minneapolis site, is the 21,000 parking spaces that would be available for tailgating. While, the current Metrodome site has the advantage of existing infrastructure with the light-rail, interstates, and bus routes, it has the drawback of not having any tailgating space. It also has the drawback of displacing the team for 3 years. The Arden Hills site would be financed by Ramsey County to the tune of $375 Million, raised through a 3% increase in food/liquor sales. The state chips in their $350 Million, and Wilf chips in his $425 Million for a grand total of $1.2 Billion. The major drawback in funding here, is that it requires the Ramsey County Legislature to approve the sales tax increase. Months ago, there was already a public petition gaining support against such a sales tax increase.

3. Other Proposals

The city of Shakopee submitted a proposal at the last minute, but it doesn't seem to have garnered much support from either the Vikings or Governor Dayton. It is only slightly more expensive than the Metrodome site, clocking in at $920 Million, but features many of the same things the Arden Hills site would have: tailgating, infrastructure fixes, etc. It would be paid for by a variety of user fees from Stadium use, as well as revenue from a racino track. It requires $400 Million from Wilf, which might be the dealbreaker. "A number of other plans were submitted", according to the Pioneer Press article linked above, but none of these other proposals were mentioned. Governor Dayton said he would examine all the proposals next week to hopefully have something to present to the Legislature when they reconvene on January 24th.

Conclusion

And there you have it. As I am no longer a resident of Minnesota, I truly feel as though I am on the outside looking in here. There are advantages and drawbacks to all of the proposals, but as a fan, I personally feel as though there are more advantages to the Arden Hills site. If I were a citizen of Minnesota, living in the Twin Cities however, I would probably prefer the Downtown East site, as my tax dollars would go towards a new stadium AND renovating Target Center and the Convention Center. While it would be a hassle for the team, the U and neighborhood surrounding TCF Bank Stadium, it feels like the general public would get more out of their tax dollars (and potentially appease non-Vikings fans a bit) with the Downtown East site. It will be interesting to see what happens, but I would be surprised if the Downtown East site is defeated, despite it being a measly, last-minute 4-page proposal, compared to the detailed, mostly planned, 148 page proposal for Arden Hills.

This FanPost was created by a registered user of The Daily Norseman, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff of the site. However, since this is a community, that view is no less important.

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Great work. Thanks for the info.

"I wanted to do it because it's fun, it's fun to do bad things and drive into a car."

by PurplePeopleEaters on Jan 12, 2012 9:58 PM CST reply actions  

Gasp!

A front page article? Sweet. Thanks a ton!

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 12, 2012 10:13 PM CST reply actions  

Good job!

It’s good info! Thanks for fleshing out the update!

"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear." -Mark Twain

by Landonio on Jan 12, 2012 10:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice work.

Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.

by Odin on Jan 12, 2012 11:13 PM CST up reply actions  

What a brown noser! :p

Build up your weaknesses until they become your strong points." --Knute Rockne

by abba7 on Jan 13, 2012 8:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Good Work Sumerizing

one thing that is not mentioned in the cost of the Metrodome proposal, is the cost of renovating the TCF stadium (heated coils and parking infrastructure) that is supposed to come out the Wilf’s pocket i believe? something to the tune of 50-75 mil right? these costs where not included in the cost assessment of the Metrodome site and puts it’s true cost at easily a Billion dollars. also, no alcohol can be served at the TCF stadium. That is a major impediment to the Vikings playing there for 3 years.

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 10:20 PM CST reply actions  

No alcohol???

Blasphemy! Well, that’s for college games. Maybe they could change that for when the Vikes play there. They’d need to be liquored up to want to play in such a tiny place.

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 12, 2012 10:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Pretty sure it has to be sold at NFL games

Since they have a deal with miller

"You can write articles and do whatever you want, you can break down every player. Good, bad or ugly. But we just aren't good enough as a team, as a group. Offensively, defensively and special teams, from the No. 1 on the roster to the last man on the roster. We just aren't good enough. It's as simple as that." - Chad Greenway

by Grape Drank on Jan 12, 2012 11:23 PM CST up reply actions  

They didn't serve alchohol at the U2 concert this summer

but changing the rules for one day and changing them for 3 years/30 games is a different thing. I’m pretty sure the Vikings would insist on booze being sold during their games. Imagine all the lost revenue.

by Are we cursed? on Jan 12, 2012 11:58 PM CST up reply actions  

To be picky...

…they need to State to stop interfering and allow them to sell it where the choose. The $11 million upgrade would also have to include running tap lines in the GA concession areas as the U didn’t install them (since they were never planning to serve beer in GA seating).

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

You're correct

Mark Wilf issued a letter detailing these additional costs, but the Minneapolis proposal that was presented makes no mention of it. The Minneapolis proposal has very little in the way of details…

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 13, 2012 8:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Vikings are saying $11 million for upgrades to TCF.

But they also said they’d lose $36 million playing there. The other thing they included in their letter was that it would cost $19 million to provide the parking they’d need for VIP suite holders at the new Dome stadium b/c of the parking situation in that area.

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

TCF Bank traffic

I haven’t been to a game at TCF yet but I’ve heard that traffic and parking is abysmal. Which isn’t surprising at all since I remember going to games at Memorial Stadium in the 70’s and it was equally bad then. Parking situation is terrible – and the Vikings will be selling it out for every game – unlike our favorite rodent team.

This could be a very major issue.

by Torstein on Jan 13, 2012 10:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Parking isn't a joy. But it's not close to abysmal.

The parking situation for Gopher games and Vikings games won’t be the same. Here’s why:
- Almost all the parking on the East Bank is only available to season ticket holders. There are 2 garages over by Coffman and one smaller surface lot about 6 blocks from TCF that allow day of game parking, but the rest is STH only. This will not be an issue for Vikings games.
- There are approx 3,000 surface lot spots and a ramp with another 500+ spots right next to or within 1-3 blocks of TCF. All of these lots are premium parking for Gophers games and require $2500 or $1000 yearly donations plus season tickets. None of this will be an issue for Vikings games.
- Those 2 factors create the most angst and teeth gnashing about “abysmal” parking, especially for non STH fans.
- In addition to the approx 6000 surface lot, ramp, or garage spots that would be available on East Bank, there are also several hundred surface lot or garage spots available on the West Bank. From there folks can walk the 1 to 1.25 miles across the river to the stadium (a gorgeous walk when the weather is nice…this is where I tailgate for Gophers games) or catch shuttles.

So, again, not the best parking situation but there are plenty of options for people based on their preferences and the biggest hassles to Gophers fans won’t exist for Vikings fans b/c the STH and donation requirements won’t exist. That said, I’d still expect the best surface lot spots to be given to people who own suite/club level tickets.
- The remaining gameday parking takes place on the U owned lots next to the State Fairgrounds, where there are thousands upon thousands of spots. Traffic is easier from there, but you are forced to take a shuttle. Thankfully this is done on the dedicated transit-way which makes the trip pretty quick (5-10 minutes I think).

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

People

That letter was just their way of justifying a smaller team contribution if the dome site is chosen.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

What about the NFL?

Weren’t they supposed to possibly pony up some dough towards the building of a new stadium? Perhaps that could take the place of the money needed to renovate TCF stadium and make up the shortfall from the lack of revenue from playing there. I would much rather see the Vikes play in Arden Hills. Their 148 page proposal makes the Mayor’s measly 4 page proposal look like a pop-up book. If only the Wilfs would put up ALL the money needed so that they could play in Arden Hills. But, I reckon that ain’t gonna happen.

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 12, 2012 10:34 PM CST reply actions  

I thought that program was defunct.

But according to MPR it has been revived with the new TV contract that was recently signed. Note that the league’s money is part of the team’s contribution; not a separate source of funding..

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/12/15/vikings-stadium-could-qualify-for-200m-league-loan/

Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.

by Odin on Jan 12, 2012 10:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, gol-dangit!

Wilfy needs to put up more dough! I thought he was putting in the $425m from his own pockets, not getting a loan from the NFL for up to $200m. Are all millionaires such skin-flints? I don’t know how much he’s worth, but if I had his money, I’d throw it all into the Arden Hills stadium and tell the legislators where they could get off, gol-dangit!

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction." - Old Cowboy proverb.

by TexVike55 on Jan 12, 2012 11:08 PM CST up reply actions  

You do realize that loans have to be paid, right?

It’s borrowed money. Wilf cant pay for the whole stadium out of pocket or anything, but I’m sure he could get financing through the NFL or wherever else and lenders would line up. The problem is that he has to pay it back. He doesn’t want to pay for the entire stadium when locally and statewide there are benefits that everyone gets. Wilf isn’t in the game of handouts. That previous statement is ironic to some people. The people that believe WIlf is asking for a handout is flat out incorrect. Everyone gets a piece of the pie directly or indirectly and that seems fair to me to have everyone involved help pay for it.

White Horn Gold Pants

by DM_Purp on Jan 13, 2012 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

I disagree, only because not everyone gets a benefit

Not getting handouts is when you construct a stadium like Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots, with your own money, and you keep the ownership, including the good, the bad, and the ugly. Or even like Jerry Jones, who put up $800 million of your own money for a stadium that is technically owned by the City of Arlington, who financed the remainder and got ownership.

Wilf seems intent on going more the way of the Indianapolis Colts, which has a mess of a stadium issue.

Meaning, the Colts pay very little in annual rent, the State of Indiana financed a large share of it, and the local government agencies are now losing millions every year on the operation of the stadium while the Colts are receiving all the benefits. Bad agreements for sure. The only difference between the Colts stadium and Vikings proposed stadium is that Wilf, with the help of the NFL, is willing to kick in $200-400+ million, depending on location, instead of the $100 million that Jim Irsay kicked in.

An older article, but pretty concise:

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2009/04/3652_colts_we_wont_h.html

by liveforadrenaline on Jan 13, 2012 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

If the state of Indiana is losing money on keeping an NFL team in their city

Then they agreed to a poorly drawn up plan. They obviously didn’t agree to a good plan as far as how the incomes are distributed. Maybe they should have set provisions stating the state get paid a majority of those incomes until their portion is paid off before the team gets the money. Again, sounds like a bad plan they agreed to. What if the Vikings have it setup where the state/county get paid a portion of merchandise/tickets/concessions that go directly towards paying them back their portion first before the Vikings get their cut from the new stadium? Would that be a better plan? I seriously doubt the Colts organization is losing $$ on their new stadium(which will get paid some serious coin for hosting the SuperBowl; not to mention the B1G 10 Championship game every year) SOOO…..there’s an issue with how that $$ is being funnelled. BTW, not every owners is Bob Kraft or Jerry Jones. Jerry Jones is worth about $2 Billion. Kraft is worth about $1.5 Billion

Zygi is worth about $310 Million(that’s with an M)

White Horn Gold Pants

by DM_Purp on Jan 13, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Also, if I understand what I've been reading

Then Zygi will not be the “owner” of the stadium. It will be more like a co-ownership with the state/county so tickets/concessions/parking/etc will be split accordingly. Besides, I think Zygi would concede some of that anyways because he’s looking to get his payday with the surrounding land. If the state of Minnesota/ArdenHils/Minneapolis agree to the same terms that Indiana/Indianapolis agreed to then they are stupid. In the comments of that link you posted, someone stated that the Colts rent the facility for $250K/year???? That’s like $25K/game. Someone at City Hall must have missed that in the contract. Apparently the team receives the concessions too. I can’t say enough: That’s a bad deal for Indianapolis. Great deal for teh Colts owner. Do not compare Wilf to Irsay. If anything, this is a warning to Minneapolis/Arden Hills to make sure those sources of income are being allocated correctly. If you’re going to sign over $300+Mill, then you better be damn sure how you’re going to get paid back. If the city was stupid enough not to get a cut of the naming rights and concessions/ticket sales/parking then that’s their own damn fault. With that being said, I would be more concerned with Minneapolis as the landing spot as opposed to the Arden Hills location. AH has done their homework. Minneapolis has not. If there’s a chance the city/state get screwed over, Minneapolis would be the ones to do it.

White Horn Gold Pants

by DM_Purp on Jan 13, 2012 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think the co-ownership thing...

…extended to the parking lots in the initial or current plans. Thus, one of the many reasons the Wilfs want AH above all else (don’t blame them at all, that’s the best deal for them).

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe it's a loan

Based on what I’ve read, the NFL is kicking in some money in the form of a loan to Wilf. That extra cash is already calculated into the $425 Million from Wilf if I remember correctly.

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 12, 2012 11:15 PM CST up reply actions  

One question to satisfy my confusion.

Aren’t 1b-The Linden Ave. site and 1c- The Basilica site the same thing?

Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.

by Odin on Jan 12, 2012 11:10 PM CST reply actions  

You might be right

It’s been a few years since I lived in MN, so I couldn’t remember where Linden Ave ran, but closer reading of that Pioneer Press article, and a quick look at Google Maps, and I think you’re right. The PP article mentioned there only being three sites, but referred to a “Basilica Site” and a “Linden Ave” site (as well as the Farmer’s Market and Metrodome site). I didn’t put 2-and-2 together there on Basilica and Linden Ave…editing article now! And thanks for catching that.

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 12, 2012 11:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks. I was 99.99978% sure that was the case.

But you gave me pause.

Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.

by Odin on Jan 12, 2012 11:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I have to respectfully disagree

I would much rather see my tax dollars to towards arden hills… if you have actually seen the site you would know why.. its is the biggest frikin eye sore in the metro.. and while the existing transprotation around the site would need to be upgraded.. I think it would be well worth it, considering the roadways around the site are long over due for a remodel…. also the way that minneapolis entered this whole thing really pisses me off,, they waited until it looked like the vikes might actually go else where, and then said NO! WAIT! WE WANNA HELP!!… The Vikes want to be in arden hills.. its the perfect spot.. better fan expereince… not nearly as crowded, a great way to clean up a dump, and help boost the economy in the northern suburbs…

by Toes110 on Jan 12, 2012 11:36 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

I have seen the site, actually

I used to live in New Brighton, and traveled around the Arden Hills area all the time. I’ve driven past the old Army Ammunition site many times, and it is a wasted space out there. But the fact is, there’s LOTS of empty spaces out in that area of the Twin Cities (not just the Army site), so it doesn’t exactly stick out like a sore thumb. I agree that it could use some development, and what better way than with a stadium? Like I said in the post, as a fan, I think the Arden Hills site has the most advantages.

But I stand by my earlier statement. Wouldn’t you rather have your tax dollars supporting multiple entities, including a new Vikings stadium if you could? I know I would. I agree that the way Minneapolis has entered the public discussion, and the fact that their proposal is rushed, and half-assed is frustrating. But they probably have more political prowess to pull it off, where Ramsey County probably does not. The fact that they can sell their financing package as a multiple-support “Three-For-One” plan, is going to have a much greater chance of winning over the non-Vikings fans.

In any case, it will be interesting to see this whole thing plan out.

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 13, 2012 8:26 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

*play out

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 13, 2012 8:27 AM CST up reply actions  

no not really

Multiple entities,.. thats kinda BS.. why should the target center and convention center get tax money to improve.. then the excel is gonna want some improvement money so they can compete with the target center to attract entertainment… ( concerts,… ect)… The vikes want to be in AH… seems like most of the fans what them in AH.. I think the north suberbs deserve the chance to try to improve the local economy.. minneapolis already has enough “entertainment” locations….They had thier chance years ago,, they decided to walk away.. well sorry too late…..

by Toes110 on Jan 13, 2012 4:37 PM CST up reply actions  

What the diehard fans want and "Minneapolis had their chance"...

…aren’t really points that resonate real strongly with the legislature though (at least not yet). Agree on the Target Center/Excel “keep up with the Jones” dynamic though. Having both of those venues isn’t really sustainable in the marketplace when you start looking at concerts, etc.

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

It is when

YOu realize the two teams have seasons that almost competely overlap.

Also, I don’t know what the fans want. I do know hat readers of this blog want, but that’s not the same.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm speaking from a concert/other use perspective.

Both sites end up losing b/c they get played off against each other.

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 8:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Also, that's why I said diehard fans...

…a club that folks here belong to for sure. =)

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 8:32 PM CST up reply actions  

They are owned by the city

Is why target cemetery and the convention center get money to improve.

As, the very arguments that support public support for Vikings stadium apply to a Wolves area.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 5:48 PM CST up reply actions  

The Arden Hills comments...

I do live in New Brighton currently, and I see that land nearly every day. I also work 4 blocks from the Metrodome.

The Arden Hills site is directly adjacent to I35W, about 1.5 miles north of were it crosses 694. USHwy10 is the other major fronting road, with another road that’s a direct artery from I35E. The basic road structure for ease of access is ideal. Yet, the truth of the matter is that these roads and off/on ramps would need rework. The fact of the matter is that rework on those very roads have been and already are in the plans for MNDot… they’ve already started on 694 in this area with bridge and ramp work.

If the site can be cleaned up, and I view THAT as the major if in this plan, the land and how it is situated is pretty ideal for a stadium, practice fields, business offices, restaurants, hotels, etc. etc…. and especially parking. I also believe that it is on, or very near the route of the proposed high speed rail line that would link Duluth to the Cities, providing a transit link to Minneapolis and thus also St. Paul, the Airport and the MoA. (If that line ever does get built)

It takes me less than 15 minutes to drive from down town to the Arden Hills site… 25 maybe in heavy traffic and that is mostly the result of a ramp situation on I35W and 694 that is already slated to be reworked. From Woodbury to Whitebear Lake to Blaine to Maple Grove to Plymouth… it will almost certainly be quicker and easier to drive to Arden Hills, park, and get into that stadium than the Metrodome is. Heck, with 21,000 parking spaces, not needing to drive in down town and park blocks and blocks away before walking against traffic… it might be quicker for a majority of regular Dome attenders that aren’t light rail riders.

by Krotz the Wall on Jan 13, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

It is an eyesore! And it would help generate tax revenue the state will lose if the vikes leave. Get the Arden Hills deal done!

by chatter on Jan 17, 2012 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Arden Hills info seems to have some problems
it would also open in 2015 (the Vikings would continue to play in the Metrodome until it is finished)…It also has the drawback of displacing the team for 3 years.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. The team would be playing at the Metrodome until they moved into the new stadium. So what’s this about the team being displaced?

The estimated costs of this site are $1.111 Billion…The Arden Hills site would be financed by Ramsey County to the tune of $375 Million, raised through a 3% increase in food/liquor sales. The state chips in their $350 Million, and Wilf chips in his $425 Million for a grand total of $1.2 Billion.

So that doesn’t add up. I was under the impression that the additional contribution from Ramsey County would just come out of the State portion of the bill. The Vikings have already said that they would cover any overages in the cost estimates for the Arden Hills site so it’s not out of their portion. Also, I thought the state portion was capped at $300 million.

The major drawback in funding here, is that it requires the Ramsey County Legislature to approve the sales tax increase. Months ago, there was already a public petition gaining support against such a sales tax increase.

On the plus side, that the petition was against a general sales tax increase and not the food/hotel tax increase proposed for this.

by Cobra312004 on Jan 13, 2012 1:04 AM CST reply actions  

Clarifications

In your first quote…read it again. The drawback I was referencing was the previous sentences in discussion of the Metrodome site. I was simply comparing the Metrodome and Arden Hills in that part. Sorry for any confusion.

In the 2nd part, I was quoting directly from page 11 of the Arden Hills proposal, which cites the state contribution at $350 million. The Minneapolis proposal did not cite a specific amount from the state, but since the Arden Hills proposal did, I assume that the $350 Million amount is correct for any proposal.

As for the third quote, you’re correct, there is the food/hotel tax in addition to the sales tax increase, but the food/hotel tax by itself won’t be enough for Ramsey County to come up with $375 Million. They will need the voter referendum to pass on the 3% sales tax increase for it all to work. And if not that, then they’ll have to get creative and come up with some other source of funding.

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 13, 2012 8:17 AM CST up reply actions  

That can't be right

The original proposition was a blanket. .5% sales tax increase, which was the one that required the referendum. The 3% increase is just for the food and hotels, and I think is actually intended to cover the full amount.

by Cobra312004 on Jan 13, 2012 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Dome site: 20 acres; AH site: 200+

From the Pioneer Press:

The county’s new agreement with the Vikings also strengthens the stadium authority’s oversight role of the facility, Mehrkens said. And he said the county is proposing that when the 170 acres of the site slated for development is fully built out, the state direct its portion of property taxes – estimated at $3 million a year – toward its debt service on the stadium. Site: 260 acres for stadium and parking, 170 for potential future development; 21,000 parking spaces Stadium: New construction; 65,000 seats, expandable to 72,000; up to 120-150 suites; up to 7,500 club seats Cost: $1.111 billion Financing: Vikings $425 million; Ramsey County $375 million for capital and operations, financed through food and beverage taxes; state $300 million

by Lars in SLP on Jan 13, 2012 6:05 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

Those articles must not have read the proposal

The proposal cites $350 million from the state. If you add up the financing with $300, you get only $1.1 Billion ($11 Million short). But if you go with the $350 Million in the proposal you get $1.15 Billion, more than a enough.

This is fleshed out on page 11 of the Arden Hills proposal.

Ponder. Peterson. Percy. Purple Perfection.

by CCNorsemen on Jan 13, 2012 8:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Keep Minneapolis happy.

Now that Minneapolis has disclosed that they really don’t need the (legislature approved) liquor, food, lodging and .5% city sales tax for their convention center, let’s “reallocate” another proposal.

Remember the idea of selling the Dome to the Vikings for $1.00? Let’s sell it to Minneapolis for a buck, and they can use that $313 million, which they now claim they really don’t need at the convention center, to operate the Dome.

What a bargain for them, heck, it even comes with a brand new roof! The Dome continues to be put to public use as MPLS uses it for functions too large for the convention center.

Besides that, they get to keep the Vikings for a few years while we put thousands of folks to work in Arden Hills building the Twin City’s second mega sports facility. Hey, next time the balloon deflated they could move any scheduled events to Arden Hills, or vice-versa. Sure beats going to Detroit.

Meanwhile, 430 acres of polluted govt. land gets cleaned up and can go back on the tax role.

by Lars in SLP on Jan 13, 2012 7:46 AM CST via mobile reply actions   1 recs

And if that won' t do the trick...

…maybe the legislature can work out a bi-partisan compromise to appease everyone: Split the Vikings home schedule between Mpls and Arden Hills!

The possibilities are mind boggling, aren’t they?

;) ;) ;)

As Jesse used to say, “That’s a joke, joke, joke”.

by Lars in SLP on Jan 13, 2012 7:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I like that idea

But if you’re going to keep the dome for non NFL events, I’d say the Vikes’ new stadium should then be open air. Why not save $200 – $300M and then you’d really have an interesting game day experience!!

SKOL!

by Torstein on Jan 13, 2012 8:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Basilica

Its kind of annoying the site got that name. It is “near” the basilica, but it’s across 394 from it, and there is space between the Basilica and 394 too.

I don’t think the clergy’s concerns are an impediment.

But the site is small and hemmed in by 394, 94 and the railroad tracks.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 8:15 AM CST reply actions  

and it would nix the Basilica Block Party each year, wouldn't it??

i don’t live in MN anymore, but i looked forward to that every year. helluva time.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Jan 13, 2012 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Why?

It’s across 394 from where the basilica and the block party are.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

i didn't know where the "Basilica Site" was located

i just figured it would spill over into the Block Party site.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Jan 13, 2012 2:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope

There’s a map here or look on google maps for Linden Ave near 394/94.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 5:59 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL -- 148pgs vs 4pgs...

…talk about “prepared vs late minute”. it actually isn’t even 2.5 pages, if you throw in the cover page and the final page consisting of five whole sentences…

this is a bad joke, right?? how can Mpls be taken even the least bit seriously…?? i’ve written better (and longer) college papers the night before they were due, Busch Light in hand and all.

it will be pretty disgusting if Mpls actually comes out on top. i’m honestly lost for words.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Jan 13, 2012 10:29 AM CST reply actions  

Ultimately it's going to be about the money

Whether it’s 4 pages or 148 doesn’t really matter. I believe the bottom line will win out and Minneapolis will be more viable because they can come up with the $$$ and Ramsey Cty can’t or won’t. I don’t like the idea of having to raise sales tax to pay for the stadium – but I don’t live or work in Ramsey Cty.

by Torstein on Jan 13, 2012 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

And votes.

Even if both come up with viable sources of funds it’s still possible that there just aren’t the votes for AH b/c of other factors.

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

but they've been very shady with their numbers

as has been documented several times ($70mil the team would lose). not to mention the Wilf’s won’t put up $$ for Mpls like they will in Arden Hills.

and it absolutely should matter how long a proposal is. one is clearly very detailed, and the other is not. they can talk all day about having better numbers, but it seems they are lacking anything relevant to back it up with.

it’s just feels like a stupid power push, like any sports facility outside of downtown is such an outrageous idea that nobody can fathom it. Mpls leaders had how many years to do something about this, and 4pgs (well, 2.5 pages) is the best they can come up with at the last minute…?? what a crock.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Jan 13, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

There is no denying that Minneapolis doesn't have its stuff together.

The mayor and the city council president are pretty much alone in pushing the Dome site. Business leaders don’t want it, the majority of the city council doesn’t want it, the new city plan doesn’t even include it.

That said, if you think specificity and detail in the submitted plans is what will make the deal happen then you ignoring the politics of it all (i.e. that the deadline is a sham and doesn’t actually mean anything). It’s not like the final plan for any of the sites will be 4 pages. If the Vikings choose to work with Minneapolis on a location, it will have a detailed plan. And if that location is the Basilica and that site wasn’t submitted by the deadline it will happen anyway, deadline be damned.

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

RJB

Don’t forget changing the spacing to 2.2 instead of double spacing and the margins to 1.2 " instead of 1". When its all said and done it may only have 1.5 pages :)

White Horn Gold Pants

by DM_Purp on Jan 13, 2012 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

oh, i remember those tricks...

…is it bad that i also know good techniques to cram even more words onto a page?? Garamond font is your friend.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Jan 13, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

THE FONT!!!!!11

Of course! How could I forget. I think Courier New is a solid way to go.

White Horn Gold Pants

by DM_Purp on Jan 13, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

2.5 pages -- it can fit in a post here

What a sham in lack of substance. Absence of steak n sizzle details should put other sites ahead on merit. Arden hills is the final answer. Penn state has a true tailgate experience. Anyone who has made the trip to happy valley knows what 200 acres could do.

Vikings in 2012 will be a Wonder-ful year. Seriously!!
I also love the game of golf. My favorite golf GPS app is OptimalClub.
It is hands down the BEST golf aid you'll ever have for club distances
under current elevation and weather conditions. Stop guessing & score low!

by VikesFanSince1967 on Jan 13, 2012 5:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

A Block E casino? No thanks.

I’m against having that gambling crap downtown. Brings down the neighborhood to make it look like Vegas North.

by jimbo55403 on Jan 13, 2012 10:44 AM CST reply actions  

I dunno...

…they did this in Detroit and supposedly the area around it has remained clean and nice plus it added some good paying jobs downtown. Can’t speak to the accuracy of that but it is what I was hearing from friends who are from MI.

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

ANY state run casino...

…would be a nice alternative to the current ownership situation of casinos in minnesota. The north end of the vegas strip isn’t even safe in spots(the south is where all the nicer spots are and the reason the north is bad is that it is half abandoned and run down). That’s not a realistic outcome of 1 new casino.

by chatter on Jan 17, 2012 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point

I think spending money to clean up a hazard waste site (never understood why the US Army didn’t do this or pay for it) and converting it into an economically viable, tax generating piece of property wasn’t viewed as a more favorable investment. I also think the state should pay for all of the public money and not leave it up to the city or county. And Mpls had a different idea of what to do with the Metrodome site as part of their 2020 plan. They want to convert it into a park and bike paths all the way down to the river because they’re forecasting the population downtown to double in the next 10 years. So I’m a little surprised now that the only really viable option for Mpls is the metrodome site.

by Torstein on Jan 13, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

correction

Meant to say I don’t understand why it’s not viewed more favorably. In other words – I still like Arden Hills option the best.

by Torstein on Jan 13, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Why shouldn't the local government contribute?

Its the main beneficiary of new tax base and new development.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

You have your parties wrongs

He state does not own that land and does not have to pay to clean it up unless it buys it. The Feds own it now.

As for highways, what’s otherwise needed doesn’t include access from the highways to the stadium and new development. That’s what’s included in the price tag.

But really, this houldnt be about price. They all cost about the same, especially as we are talking about amortizing it over the life of the bonds.

We should pick on merits and on political support, not price.

by amiller92 on Jan 13, 2012 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Peculiar, isn't it?

If the government owns polluted land they can let it sit and peach further into the ground, but if someone buys it they have to clean it up.

I agree the site should be selected on merit, but disagree on political support. The politicians should throw their support to the site that best merits it.

by Lars in SLP on Jan 13, 2012 12:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Merit is a tricky thing...

…because it depends on your criteria. An argument can be made for either Minneapolis or AH that makes sense. That doesn’t mean everyone will agree with it of course, it just means you don’t have to make up facts or twist the numbers like a pretzel to support either location from a legislative perspective.

The only reason to pick a site based on political support is if you are a pragmatic person who doesn’t see the point in putting money, effort, and time (which, when it comes to a large scale project like this is money) into fighting for a proposal that doesn’t have a political path to passage. This is what the Vikings are going to have to decide.

by GoAUpher on Jan 13, 2012 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Rec'd

excellent point.

"Th_r_'s n_ h_p_ f_r _ssh_l_ f_ckw_ts."

Can I buy a vowel...?? +1, Kluwe.

by rj-b on Jan 13, 2012 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

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